Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Back door or backdoor
967 views
Skip to first unread message
Don Phillipson
May 18, 2014, 10:37:00 AM5/18/14
to
Someone posted in : alt.windows7.general: Friday, May 16, 2014 6:11 PM
Subject: NSA Plants 'Backdoors' in Foreign-Bound Routers
> http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/05/12/greenwald-nsa-plants-backdoors-in-foreign-bound-routers/?KEYWORDS=security
Yes, "backdoor" in the source, not "back door." This is not particularly
new but seems unknown before the 1970s. Has anyone measured its
frequency? It seems paradoxical that people commonly write about
backdoors and backseats but still prefer front doors and front seats.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Subject: NSA Plants 'Backdoors' in Foreign-Bound Routers
> http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/05/12/greenwald-nsa-plants-backdoors-in-foreign-bound-routers/?KEYWORDS=security
Yes, "backdoor" in the source, not "back door." This is not particularly
new but seems unknown before the 1970s. Has anyone measured its
frequency? It seems paradoxical that people commonly write about
backdoors and backseats but still prefer front doors and front seats.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Guy Barry
May 18, 2014, 10:41:49 AM5/18/14
to
"Don Phillipson" wrote in message news:llagj3$men$2...@news.albasani.net...
As far as I'm concerned it's "backdoor" and "backseat" when used
attributively, e.g. "a backdoor route", "a backseat driver", but "back door"
and "back seat" when used nominally. I presume that "frontdoor" and
"frontseat" don't occur because they're not used attributively.
--
Guy Barry
attributively, e.g. "a backdoor route", "a backseat driver", but "back door"
and "back seat" when used nominally. I presume that "frontdoor" and
"frontseat" don't occur because they're not used attributively.
--
Guy Barry
Peter T. Daniels
May 18, 2014, 1:46:53 PM5/18/14
to
The noun in the url above is wrong, but either a hyphen or a space would
be troublesome in the url.
Joe Fineman
May 18, 2014, 6:31:19 PM5/18/14
to
"Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes:
>> http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/05/12/greenwald-nsa-plants-backdoors-in-foreign-bound-routers/?KEYWORDS=security
>
> Yes, "backdoor" in the source, not "back door." This is not
> particularly new but seems unknown before the 1970s. Has anyone
> measured its frequency? It seems paradoxical that people commonly
> write about backdoors and backseats but still prefer front doors and
> front seats.
AHD has "backdoor" for the adjective, but only in its metaphorical
>> http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/05/12/greenwald-nsa-plants-backdoors-in-foreign-bound-routers/?KEYWORDS=security
>
> Yes, "backdoor" in the source, not "back door." This is not
> particularly new but seems unknown before the 1970s. Has anyone
> measured its frequency? It seems paradoxical that people commonly
> write about backdoors and backseats but still prefer front doors and
> front seats.
meanings (romance, pass). It does not list "back door" at all, so I
suppose that means it would treat it according the usual rules: two
words for the noun, except perhaps in attributive use (a back-door
key). At any rate, that is what I write (with the hyphen in the latter
use, since I am oldfashioned).
It has "back seat" (n., literal or metaphorical), but "back-seat
driver"; that, again, agrees with my usage.
On the other hand, it has "backyard" (n.), with "back yard" as a
variant. I use the variant (hyphenated if attributive). AFAICT nobody
writes "frontyard".
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: Young people are getting born and old people are getting :||
||: deceased and middle-aged people are getting used to it. :||
Mark Brader
May 19, 2014, 2:31:14 AM5/19/14
to
Don Phillipson:
> Yes, "backdoor"... not "back door." This is not particularly
method built into a computer program is a "backdoor". And I never
realized that I had this distinction until now.
As for "back seat", I see no reason to write it as one word, and
I don't. Perhaps the one-word form came about through the phrase
"back-seat driver" losing its hyphen and the adjective then being
(wait for it...) renouned.
--
Mark Brader "...there are other means of persuasion
m...@vex.net besides killing and threatening to kill."
Toronto --Dashiell Hammett, The Maltese Falcon
My text in this article is in the public domain.
> Yes, "backdoor"... not "back door." This is not particularly
> new but seems unknown before the 1970s. Has anyone measured its
> frequency? It seems paradoxical that people commonly write about
> backdoors and backseats but still prefer front doors and front seats.
For me, a building or vehicle has a "back door" but a secret access
> frequency? It seems paradoxical that people commonly write about
> backdoors and backseats but still prefer front doors and front seats.
method built into a computer program is a "backdoor". And I never
realized that I had this distinction until now.
As for "back seat", I see no reason to write it as one word, and
I don't. Perhaps the one-word form came about through the phrase
"back-seat driver" losing its hyphen and the adjective then being
(wait for it...) renouned.
--
Mark Brader "...there are other means of persuasion
m...@vex.net besides killing and threatening to kill."
Toronto --Dashiell Hammett, The Maltese Falcon
My text in this article is in the public domain.
![Peter Duncanson [BrE]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjU1GGYFBCZgBCNB-pRgkosMu-ej0qpnECw3jc8uGYOTiF8a=s40-c)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
May 19, 2014, 10:10:48 AM5/19/14
to
On Mon, 19 May 2014 01:31:14 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>Don Phillipson:
>> Yes, "backdoor"... not "back door." This is not particularly
>> new but seems unknown before the 1970s. Has anyone measured its
>> frequency? It seems paradoxical that people commonly write about
>> backdoors and backseats but still prefer front doors and front seats.
>
>For me, a building or vehicle has a "back door" but a secret access
>method built into a computer program is a "backdoor". And I never
>realized that I had this distinction until now.
>
I would use the spelling "backdoor" for the secret entry to a computer
>Don Phillipson:
>> Yes, "backdoor"... not "back door." This is not particularly
>> new but seems unknown before the 1970s. Has anyone measured its
>> frequency? It seems paradoxical that people commonly write about
>> backdoors and backseats but still prefer front doors and front seats.
>
>For me, a building or vehicle has a "back door" but a secret access
>method built into a computer program is a "backdoor". And I never
>realized that I had this distinction until now.
>
program.
The Jargon File has it as two words:
http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/B/back-door.html
back door: n.
[common] A hole in the security of a system deliberately left in
place by designers or maintainers. ... Syn. trap door
....
However, the Jargon File is fairly old. More recent computing
dictionaries use the one-word version:
http://www.techopedia.com/definition/3743/backdoor
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/B/backdoor.html
http://www.netlingo.com/word/backdoor.php
>As for "back seat", I see no reason to write it as one word, and
>I don't. Perhaps the one-word form came about through the phrase
>"back-seat driver" losing its hyphen and the adjective then being
>(wait for it...) renouned.
--
(in alt.usage.english)
Joe Fineman
May 19, 2014, 5:25:49 PM5/19/14
to
"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
> On Mon, 19 May 2014 01:31:14 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>
>>Don Phillipson:
>>> Yes, "backdoor"... not "back door." This is not particularly
>>> new but seems unknown before the 1970s. Has anyone measured its
>>> frequency? It seems paradoxical that people commonly write about
>>> backdoors and backseats but still prefer front doors and front seats.
>>
>>For me, a building or vehicle has a "back door" but a secret access
>>method built into a computer program is a "backdoor". And I never
>>realized that I had this distinction until now.
>>
> I would use the spelling "backdoor" for the secret entry to a computer
> program.
How do you pronounce it? IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
> On Mon, 19 May 2014 01:31:14 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>
>>Don Phillipson:
>>> Yes, "backdoor"... not "back door." This is not particularly
>>> new but seems unknown before the 1970s. Has anyone measured its
>>> frequency? It seems paradoxical that people commonly write about
>>> backdoors and backseats but still prefer front doors and front seats.
>>
>>For me, a building or vehicle has a "back door" but a secret access
>>method built into a computer program is a "backdoor". And I never
>>realized that I had this distinction until now.
>>
> I would use the spelling "backdoor" for the secret entry to a computer
> program.
compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog. By that criterion, "back door",
"back seat", & "back yard", in their literal senses, are all two-word
phrases. Likewise, if I had a two-room house, I might refer to its
front room & back room; but the boys in the song in Destry Rides Again
were in the backroom -- a specialized room in the bar.
||: Why didn't Dirac :||
||: Call it a brac? :||
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
May 19, 2014, 7:18:09 PM5/19/14
to
On Mon, 19 May 2014 17:25:49 -0400, Joe Fineman <jo...@verizon.net>
wrote:
>"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>
>> On Mon, 19 May 2014 01:31:14 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>>
>>>Don Phillipson:
>>>> Yes, "backdoor"... not "back door." This is not particularly
>>>> new but seems unknown before the 1970s. Has anyone measured its
>>>> frequency? It seems paradoxical that people commonly write about
>>>> backdoors and backseats but still prefer front doors and front seats.
>>>
>>>For me, a building or vehicle has a "back door" but a secret access
>>>method built into a computer program is a "backdoor". And I never
>>>realized that I had this distinction until now.
>>>
>> I would use the spelling "backdoor" for the secret entry to a computer
>> program.
>
>How do you pronounce it?
I very rarely have any need to pronounce it. If I did, it would be
indistinguishable from the two word version.
> IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
>compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
>backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog. By that criterion, "back door",
>"back seat", & "back yard", in their literal senses, are all two-word
>phrases. Likewise, if I had a two-room house, I might refer to its
>front room & back room; but the boys in the song in Destry Rides Again
>were in the backroom -- a specialized room in the bar.
--
wrote:
>"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>
>> On Mon, 19 May 2014 01:31:14 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>>
>>>Don Phillipson:
>>>> Yes, "backdoor"... not "back door." This is not particularly
>>>> new but seems unknown before the 1970s. Has anyone measured its
>>>> frequency? It seems paradoxical that people commonly write about
>>>> backdoors and backseats but still prefer front doors and front seats.
>>>
>>>For me, a building or vehicle has a "back door" but a secret access
>>>method built into a computer program is a "backdoor". And I never
>>>realized that I had this distinction until now.
>>>
>> I would use the spelling "backdoor" for the secret entry to a computer
>> program.
>
>How do you pronounce it?
indistinguishable from the two word version.
> IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
>compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
>backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog. By that criterion, "back door",
>"back seat", & "back yard", in their literal senses, are all two-word
>phrases. Likewise, if I had a two-room house, I might refer to its
>front room & back room; but the boys in the song in Destry Rides Again
>were in the backroom -- a specialized room in the bar.
--
Mark Brader
May 20, 2014, 1:09:18 AM5/20/14
to
Mark Brader:
and stressed equally. "Backdoor" (noun), accented on the first syllable.
For me.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "[This book] is written in what I believed
m...@vex.net | to be my native language." --Susan Stepney
>>> For me, a building or vehicle has a "back door" but a secret access
>>> method built into a computer program is a "backdoor". And I never
>>> realized that I had this distinction until now.
Peter Duncanson:
>>> method built into a computer program is a "backdoor". And I never
>>> realized that I had this distinction until now.
>> I would use the spelling "backdoor" for the secret entry to a computer
>> program.
Joe Fineman:
>> program.
> How do you pronounce it? IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
> compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
> backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog. By that criterion, "back door",
> "back seat", & "back yard", in their literal senses, are all two-word
> phrases.
Agreed. "Back door", "back seat", "back yard", all written as two words
> compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
> backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog. By that criterion, "back door",
> "back seat", & "back yard", in their literal senses, are all two-word
> phrases.
and stressed equally. "Backdoor" (noun), accented on the first syllable.
For me.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "[This book] is written in what I believed
m...@vex.net | to be my native language." --Susan Stepney
Steve Hayes
May 20, 2014, 2:12:48 AM5/20/14
to
is definitely on the first syllable.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Guy Barry
May 20, 2014, 3:59:06 AM5/20/14
to
"Joe Fineman" wrote in message news:84ha4lb...@verizon.net...
the second syllable; but the others are nouns stressed on the first.
>By that criterion, "back door",
>"back seat", & "back yard", in their literal senses, are all two-word
>phrases.
Indeed. I would differentiate "a backdoor route" (adjective, stressed on
"back") from "a back door" (compound noun, stressed on "door"). If someone
used the spelling "a backdoor" in the way that Peter suggests, I would
automatically read it with the stress on the first syllable, which seems
wrong for the noun.
>Likewise, if I had a two-room house, I might refer to its
>front room & back room; but the boys in the song in Destry Rides Again
>were in the backroom -- a specialized room in the bar.
Again, I'd talk about "the backroom boys" (adjective, stressed on "back")
but "the back room" (compound noun, stressed on "room"). I wouldn't use the
spelling "backroom" for the noun because I don't stress it on the first
syllable.
--
Guy Barry
>
>"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>> I would use the spelling "backdoor" for the secret entry to a computer
>> program.
>
>How do you pronounce it? IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
>compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
>backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog.
I wouldn't include "backfire" in that list because it's a verb, stressed on
>"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>> I would use the spelling "backdoor" for the secret entry to a computer
>> program.
>
>How do you pronounce it? IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
>compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
>backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog.
the second syllable; but the others are nouns stressed on the first.
>By that criterion, "back door",
>"back seat", & "back yard", in their literal senses, are all two-word
>phrases.
"back") from "a back door" (compound noun, stressed on "door"). If someone
used the spelling "a backdoor" in the way that Peter suggests, I would
automatically read it with the stress on the first syllable, which seems
wrong for the noun.
>Likewise, if I had a two-room house, I might refer to its
>front room & back room; but the boys in the song in Destry Rides Again
>were in the backroom -- a specialized room in the bar.
but "the back room" (compound noun, stressed on "room"). I wouldn't use the
spelling "backroom" for the noun because I don't stress it on the first
syllable.
--
Guy Barry
Peter T. Daniels
May 20, 2014, 7:34:03 AM5/20/14
to
On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 3:59:06 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
> >How do you pronounce it? IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
> >compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
> >backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog.
>
> I wouldn't include "backfire" in that list because it's a verb, stressed on
> the second syllable; but the others are nouns stressed on the first.
?? When a car backfires, it stresses the first syllable.
> >How do you pronounce it? IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
> >compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
> >backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog.
>
> I wouldn't include "backfire" in that list because it's a verb, stressed on
> the second syllable; but the others are nouns stressed on the first.
If it's a technical term from musketry, how would you know how _anyone_
pronounced it 200 years ago?
Guy Barry
May 20, 2014, 8:23:13 AM5/20/14
to
"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
news:165d5f0b-5174-40a2...@googlegroups.com...
premature explosion in the cylinder of an internal combustion engine", and
stresses it on the first; but for the verb meaning "to make or undergo a
backfire", it's second-syllable stress, and I'm pretty certain I've heard no
other in this country.
>If it's a technical term from musketry, how would you know how _anyone_
>pronounced it 200 years ago?
Why does that matter? The only usage I know is that of a car backfiring, or
the associated metaphorical use (e.g. "our plans backfired").
--
Guy Barry
news:165d5f0b-5174-40a2...@googlegroups.com...
>
>On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 3:59:06 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>
>> >How do you pronounce it? IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
>> >compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
>> >backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog.
>>
>> I wouldn't include "backfire" in that list because it's a verb, stressed
>> on
>> the second syllable; but the others are nouns stressed on the first.
>
>?? When a car backfires, it stresses the first syllable.
Not in my dialect. My dictionary lists "backfire" as a noun meaning "a
>On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 3:59:06 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>
>> >How do you pronounce it? IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
>> >compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
>> >backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog.
>>
>> I wouldn't include "backfire" in that list because it's a verb, stressed
>> on
>> the second syllable; but the others are nouns stressed on the first.
>
>?? When a car backfires, it stresses the first syllable.
premature explosion in the cylinder of an internal combustion engine", and
stresses it on the first; but for the verb meaning "to make or undergo a
backfire", it's second-syllable stress, and I'm pretty certain I've heard no
other in this country.
>If it's a technical term from musketry, how would you know how _anyone_
>pronounced it 200 years ago?
the associated metaphorical use (e.g. "our plans backfired").
--
Guy Barry
Peter Moylan
May 20, 2014, 9:13:24 AM5/20/14
to
On 20/05/14 15:09, Mark Brader wrote:
> Mark Brader:
>>>> For me, a building or vehicle has a "back door" but a secret access
>>>> method built into a computer program is a "backdoor". And I never
>>>> realized that I had this distinction until now.
>
> Peter Duncanson:
>>> I would use the spelling "backdoor" for the secret entry to a computer
>>> program.
>
> Joe Fineman:
>> How do you pronounce it? IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
>> compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
>> backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog. By that criterion, "back door",
>> "back seat", & "back yard", in their literal senses, are all two-word
>> phrases.
>
> Agreed. "Back door", "back seat", "back yard", all written as two words
> and stressed equally. "Backdoor" (noun), accented on the first syllable.
> For me.
I can imagine any of these being used as an attribute noun (e.g.
> Mark Brader:
>>>> For me, a building or vehicle has a "back door" but a secret access
>>>> method built into a computer program is a "backdoor". And I never
>>>> realized that I had this distinction until now.
>
> Peter Duncanson:
>>> I would use the spelling "backdoor" for the secret entry to a computer
>>> program.
>
> Joe Fineman:
>> How do you pronounce it? IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
>> compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
>> backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog. By that criterion, "back door",
>> "back seat", & "back yard", in their literal senses, are all two-word
>> phrases.
>
> Agreed. "Back door", "back seat", "back yard", all written as two words
> and stressed equally. "Backdoor" (noun), accented on the first syllable.
> For me.
back-door solution), but in all such cases I would insist on the hyphen.
I see, however, that Joe has provided some examples of words where the
collapse is traditional, and I would accept all of those without the
hyphen. The common feature, as he says, is that the stress is always on
the first syllable. (As it is in the attributive uses.)
One of the tests I would apply is to ask whether any given use is
equally acceptable with "back" replaced by "front". I can say both "back
seat" and "front seat", but I wouldn't be able to delete the space from
either.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Peter T. Daniels
May 20, 2014, 4:52:40 PM5/20/14
to
On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 8:23:13 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
> news:165d5f0b-5174-40a2...@googlegroups.com...
> >On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 3:59:06 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
> >> >How do you pronounce it? IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
> >> >compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
> >> >backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog.
> >> I wouldn't include "backfire" in that list because it's a verb, stressed
> >> on
> >> the second syllable; but the others are nouns stressed on the first.
> >?? When a car backfires, it stresses the first syllable.
>
> Not in my dialect. My dictionary lists "backfire" as a noun meaning "a
> premature explosion in the cylinder of an internal combustion engine", and
> stresses it on the first; but for the verb meaning "to make or undergo a
> backfire", it's second-syllable stress, and I'm pretty certain I've heard no
> other in this country.
Is there a class of verbs of similar formation with similar stress
> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
> news:165d5f0b-5174-40a2...@googlegroups.com...
> >On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 3:59:06 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
> >> >How do you pronounce it? IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
> >> >compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
> >> >backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog.
> >> I wouldn't include "backfire" in that list because it's a verb, stressed
> >> on
> >> the second syllable; but the others are nouns stressed on the first.
> >?? When a car backfires, it stresses the first syllable.
>
> Not in my dialect. My dictionary lists "backfire" as a noun meaning "a
> premature explosion in the cylinder of an internal combustion engine", and
> stresses it on the first; but for the verb meaning "to make or undergo a
> backfire", it's second-syllable stress, and I'm pretty certain I've heard no
> other in this country.
behavior? You are putting me in mind of acquire/require/inspire, where
the first syllable is a prefix, not a full lexical item.
> >If it's a technical term from musketry, how would you know how _anyone_
> >pronounced it 200 years ago?
>
> Why does that matter? The only usage I know is that of a car backfiring, or
> the associated metaphorical use (e.g. "our plans backfired").
any potential ambiguity, no matter how obscure or irrelevant, to "score"
triumphal "points." The motoring term "backfire" did indeed originate in
some sort of malfunction in some sort of firearm.
Robert Bannister
May 20, 2014, 9:21:33 PM5/20/14
to
On 20/05/2014 8:23 pm, Guy Barry wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
> news:165d5f0b-5174-40a2...@googlegroups.com...
>>
>> On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 3:59:06 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>>
>>> >How do you pronounce it? IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
>>> >compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
>>> >backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog.
>>>
>>> I wouldn't include "backfire" in that list because it's a verb,
>>> stressed on
>>> the second syllable; but the others are nouns stressed on the first.
>>
>> ?? When a car backfires, it stresses the first syllable.
>
> Not in my dialect. My dictionary lists "backfire" as a noun meaning "a
> premature explosion in the cylinder of an internal combustion engine",
> and stresses it on the first; but for the verb meaning "to make or
> undergo a backfire", it's second-syllable stress, and I'm pretty certain
> I've heard no other in this country.
I think I used to have second syllable stress, but these days, I'm
> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
> news:165d5f0b-5174-40a2...@googlegroups.com...
>>
>> On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 3:59:06 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>>
>>> >How do you pronounce it? IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
>>> >compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
>>> >backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog.
>>>
>>> I wouldn't include "backfire" in that list because it's a verb,
>>> stressed on
>>> the second syllable; but the others are nouns stressed on the first.
>>
>> ?? When a car backfires, it stresses the first syllable.
>
> Not in my dialect. My dictionary lists "backfire" as a noun meaning "a
> premature explosion in the cylinder of an internal combustion engine",
> and stresses it on the first; but for the verb meaning "to make or
> undergo a backfire", it's second-syllable stress, and I'm pretty certain
> I've heard no other in this country.
pretty sure it's more like equal stress on both syllables with possibly
a slight emphasis on one or the other more or less at random.
--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia
Guy Barry
May 21, 2014, 12:30:22 AM5/21/14
to
"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
news:c380ffaf-092e-41c7...@googlegroups.com...
>
>On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 8:23:13 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>> My dictionary lists "backfire" as a noun meaning "a
>> premature explosion in the cylinder of an internal combustion engine",
>> and
>> stresses it on the first; but for the verb meaning "to make or undergo a
>> backfire", it's second-syllable stress, and I'm pretty certain I've heard
>> no
>> other in this country.
>
>Is there a class of verbs of similar formation with similar stress
>behavior? You are putting me in mind of acquire/require/inspire, where
>the first syllable is a prefix, not a full lexical item.
There must be loads. Off the top of my head:
>On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 8:23:13 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>> My dictionary lists "backfire" as a noun meaning "a
>> premature explosion in the cylinder of an internal combustion engine",
>> and
>> stresses it on the first; but for the verb meaning "to make or undergo a
>> backfire", it's second-syllable stress, and I'm pretty certain I've heard
>> no
>> other in this country.
>
>Is there a class of verbs of similar formation with similar stress
>behavior? You are putting me in mind of acquire/require/inspire, where
>the first syllable is a prefix, not a full lexical item.
"My computer needs an UPgrade"/"I'm going to upGRADE my computer".
"The engine needs an OVERhaul"/"I'm going to overHAUL the engine".
"There's a two-inch OFFset"/"you must offSET it by two inches".
"You can easily get a DOWNload"/"you can downLOAD the file here".
It's a pretty standard contrast, I'd have thought.
--
Guy Barry
Peter T. Daniels
May 21, 2014, 1:03:16 AM5/21/14
to
contrast holds for many Latinate prefix words like "combat."
DavidW
May 21, 2014, 11:12:01 PM5/21/14
to
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, May 18, 2014 10:41:49 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>> "Don Phillipson" wrote in message
>
> On Sunday, May 18, 2014 10:41:49 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>> "Don Phillipson" wrote in message
>
>>> Someone posted in : alt.windows7.general: Friday, May 16, 2014 6:11
>>> PM Subject: NSA Plants 'Backdoors' in Foreign-Bound Routers
>>>> http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/05/12/greenwald-nsa-plants-backdoors-in-foreign-bound-routers/?KEYWORDS=security
>>> Yes, "backdoor" in the source, not "back door." This is not
>>> particularly new but seems unknown before the 1970s. Has anyone
>>> measured its frequency? It seems paradoxical that people commonly
>>> write about backdoors and backseats but still prefer front doors
>>> and front seats.
>>
>> As far as I'm concerned it's "backdoor" and "backseat" when used
>> attributively, e.g. "a backdoor route", "a backseat driver", but
>> "back door" and "back seat" when used nominally. I presume that
>> "frontdoor" and "frontseat" don't occur because they're not used
>> attributively.
>
> Some would insist on hyphens in the adjectives. But they would be
> wrong.
Why "wrong"?
>>> PM Subject: NSA Plants 'Backdoors' in Foreign-Bound Routers
>>>> http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/05/12/greenwald-nsa-plants-backdoors-in-foreign-bound-routers/?KEYWORDS=security
>>> Yes, "backdoor" in the source, not "back door." This is not
>>> particularly new but seems unknown before the 1970s. Has anyone
>>> measured its frequency? It seems paradoxical that people commonly
>>> write about backdoors and backseats but still prefer front doors
>>> and front seats.
>>
>> As far as I'm concerned it's "backdoor" and "backseat" when used
>> attributively, e.g. "a backdoor route", "a backseat driver", but
>> "back door" and "back seat" when used nominally. I presume that
>> "frontdoor" and "frontseat" don't occur because they're not used
>> attributively.
>
> Some would insist on hyphens in the adjectives. But they would be
> wrong.
DavidW
May 21, 2014, 11:14:10 PM5/21/14
to
front-door key."
Peter T. Daniels
May 22, 2014, 12:14:14 AM5/22/14
to
or spacing almost all candidates for hyphenation for at least 4 editions
now.
DavidW
May 22, 2014, 12:31:47 AM5/22/14
to
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 11:12:01 PM UTC-4, DavidW wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 18, 2014 10:41:49 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>
>>>> As far as I'm concerned it's "backdoor" and "backseat" when used
>>>> attributively, e.g. "a backdoor route", "a backseat driver", but
>>>> "back door" and "back seat" when used nominally. I presume that
>>>> "frontdoor" and "frontseat" don't occur because they're not used
>>>> attributively.
>>> Some would insist on hyphens in the adjectives. But they would be
>>> wrong.
>>
>> Why "wrong"?
>
> Because hyphens are pass�. Chicago has been counseling either closing
> On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 11:12:01 PM UTC-4, DavidW wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 18, 2014 10:41:49 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>
>>>> As far as I'm concerned it's "backdoor" and "backseat" when used
>>>> attributively, e.g. "a backdoor route", "a backseat driver", but
>>>> "back door" and "back seat" when used nominally. I presume that
>>>> "frontdoor" and "frontseat" don't occur because they're not used
>>>> attributively.
>>> Some would insist on hyphens in the adjectives. But they would be
>>> wrong.
>>
>> Why "wrong"?
>
> up or spacing almost all candidates for hyphenation for at least 4
> editions now.
We cannot live without hyphens. Celebrate hyphens.
> editions now.
Peter T. Daniels
May 22, 2014, 1:07:34 AM5/22/14
to
On Thursday, May 22, 2014 12:31:47 AM UTC-4, DavidW wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Because hyphens are passé. Chicago has been counseling either closing
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > up or spacing almost all candidates for hyphenation for at least 4
> > editions now.
>
> We cannot live without hyphens. Celebrate hyphens.
They have their place. A very limited place.
> > editions now.
>
> We cannot live without hyphens. Celebrate hyphens.
charles
May 22, 2014, 1:15:33 AM5/22/14
to
In article <80fa99ab-0c9d-4a10...@googlegroups.com>,
--
From KT24
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18
Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Thursday, May 22, 2014 12:31:47 AM UTC-4, DavidW wrote:
> > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > Because hyphens are pass�. Chicago has been counseling either closing
> On Thursday, May 22, 2014 12:31:47 AM UTC-4, DavidW wrote:
> > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > up or spacing almost all candidates for hyphenation for at least 4
> > > editions now.
> >
> > We cannot live without hyphens. Celebrate hyphens.
> They have their place. A very limited place.
or even "a very-limited place"
> > > editions now.
> >
> > We cannot live without hyphens. Celebrate hyphens.
> They have their place. A very limited place.
--
From KT24
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18
Guy Barry
May 22, 2014, 2:56:04 AM5/22/14
to
"DavidW" wrote in message news:lljq2i$46m$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
the literal sense. I'd stress "front-door key" (or indeed "back-door key")
rather differently from "backdoor route".
--
Guy Barry
>
>Guy Barry wrote:
>> As far as I'm concerned it's "backdoor" and "backseat" when used
>> attributively, e.g. "a backdoor route", "a backseat driver", but
>> "back door" and "back seat" when used nominally. I presume that
>> "frontdoor" and "frontseat" don't occur because they're not used
>> attributively.
>
>They certainly can be, but a hyphen would be called for: "I've lost my
>front-door key."
That's true. I suppose I was thinking of the metaphorical sense rather than
>Guy Barry wrote:
>> As far as I'm concerned it's "backdoor" and "backseat" when used
>> attributively, e.g. "a backdoor route", "a backseat driver", but
>> "back door" and "back seat" when used nominally. I presume that
>> "frontdoor" and "frontseat" don't occur because they're not used
>> attributively.
>
>They certainly can be, but a hyphen would be called for: "I've lost my
>front-door key."
the literal sense. I'd stress "front-door key" (or indeed "back-door key")
rather differently from "backdoor route".
--
Guy Barry
Joe Fineman
May 22, 2014, 7:11:02 PM5/22/14
to
"Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
> "Joe Fineman" wrote in message news:84ha4lb...@verizon.net...
>>
>>"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>
>>> I would use the spelling "backdoor" for the secret entry to a computer
>>> program.
>>
>>How do you pronounce it? IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
>>compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
>>backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog.
>
> I wouldn't include "backfire" in that list because it's a verb,
> stressed on the second syllable; but the others are nouns stressed on
> the first.
That is probably a transAtlantic difference. I have never heard
> "Joe Fineman" wrote in message news:84ha4lb...@verizon.net...
>>
>>"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>
>>> I would use the spelling "backdoor" for the secret entry to a computer
>>> program.
>>
>>How do you pronounce it? IMO (under the influence of Fowler), a true
>>compound has its second member reduced in stress: cf. backfire,
>>backdrop, backache, backstop, backlog.
>
> I wouldn't include "backfire" in that list because it's a verb,
> stressed on the second syllable; but the others are nouns stressed on
> the first.
"backfire" with primary stress on the second syllable, either as noun or
as verb. I have trouble even trying to pronounce it that way. (Does
the first syllable get secondary stress, or none at all?)
>>Likewise, if I had a two-room house, I might refer to its front room &
>>back room; but the boys in the song in Destry Rides Again were in the
>>backroom -- a specialized room in the bar.
>
> Again, I'd talk about "the backroom boys" (adjective, stressed on
> "back") but "the back room" (compound noun, stressed on "room"). I
> wouldn't use the spelling "backroom" for the noun because I don't
> stress it on the first syllable.
It's "The Boys in the Back Room". Certainly, reading the title, I can
give the last two words even stress, but in singing
See what the boys in the back room will have,
the rhythm makes that almost impossible, and Miss Dietrich does not
attempt it. Indeed, as a child, I heard it as "the boys in the
background", which does have a certain sinister charm.
||: What is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth. :||
Robert Bannister
May 22, 2014, 7:38:24 PM5/22/14
to
I presume the character was comparing her food to army fare, but "c-
rations" brought me up with a jolt. I don't know whether "C-rations"
actually exist as food in anyone's army, but I read it as "crations"
which was very confusing.
snide...@gmail.com
May 22, 2014, 7:58:50 PM5/22/14
to
On Thursday, May 22, 2014 4:38:24 PM UTC-7, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 22/05/2014 12:31 pm, DavidW wrote:
> > We cannot live without hyphens. Celebrate hyphens.
>
> I came across a lovely hyp-hen in a novel the other day.
Heh.
> On 22/05/2014 12:31 pm, DavidW wrote:
> > We cannot live without hyphens. Celebrate hyphens.
>
> I came across a lovely hyp-hen in a novel the other day.
> I presume the character was comparing her food to army fare, but "c-
> rations" brought me up with a jolt. I don't know whether "C-rations"
> actually exist as food in anyone's army,
in the US Army for a long time. If old episodes of _Combat_ or _Rat Patrol_
are on ewetoob, it should be easy to hear of them in the dialog.
> but I read it as "crations"
> which was very confusing.
/dps "don't get sacked"
Message has been deleted
Guy Barry
May 23, 2014, 3:48:43 AM5/23/14
to
"Joe Fineman" wrote in message news:8461kx5...@verizon.net...
marked as having secondary stress. (I think I have a different definition
of "secondary stress" from some people, but it definitely contains a clear
vowel when I say it.)
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/backfire
The American pronunciation is indeed stressed the other way round:
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/backfire
which strikes me as an odd stress pattern for a verb with a prefix of that
type. I'd say "backdate" with the stress on the second syllable, for
instance. I can't think of any others with "back-", but as I mentioned
elsewhere I would pronounce the verbs "upgrade", "download", "outreach",
"overhaul" and so on with the stress on the final. Would AmE stress any of
these on the first?
--
Guy Barry
>
>"Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>> I wouldn't include "backfire" in that list because it's a verb,
>> stressed on the second syllable; but the others are nouns stressed on
>> the first.
>
>That is probably a transAtlantic difference. I have never heard
>"backfire" with primary stress on the second syllable, either as noun or
>as verb. I have trouble even trying to pronounce it that way. (Does
>the first syllable get secondary stress, or none at all?)
Here's Macmillan with the British pronunciation. The first syllable is
>"Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>> I wouldn't include "backfire" in that list because it's a verb,
>> stressed on the second syllable; but the others are nouns stressed on
>> the first.
>
>That is probably a transAtlantic difference. I have never heard
>"backfire" with primary stress on the second syllable, either as noun or
>as verb. I have trouble even trying to pronounce it that way. (Does
>the first syllable get secondary stress, or none at all?)
marked as having secondary stress. (I think I have a different definition
of "secondary stress" from some people, but it definitely contains a clear
vowel when I say it.)
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/backfire
The American pronunciation is indeed stressed the other way round:
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/backfire
which strikes me as an odd stress pattern for a verb with a prefix of that
type. I'd say "backdate" with the stress on the second syllable, for
instance. I can't think of any others with "back-", but as I mentioned
elsewhere I would pronounce the verbs "upgrade", "download", "outreach",
"overhaul" and so on with the stress on the final. Would AmE stress any of
these on the first?
--
Guy Barry
Mark Brader
May 23, 2014, 4:59:12 AM5/23/14
to
Guy Barry:
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "The problem is that tax lawyers are
m...@vex.net | amazingly creative." -- David Sherman
> I'd say "backdate" with the stress on the second syllable, for
> instance. I can't think of any others with "back-", but as I mentioned
> elsewhere I would pronounce the verbs "upgrade", "download", "outreach",
> "overhaul" and so on with the stress on the final. Would AmE stress any of
> these on the first?
All five of them, in my usage. Both as nouns and verbs, where applicable.
> instance. I can't think of any others with "back-", but as I mentioned
> elsewhere I would pronounce the verbs "upgrade", "download", "outreach",
> "overhaul" and so on with the stress on the final. Would AmE stress any of
> these on the first?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "The problem is that tax lawyers are
m...@vex.net | amazingly creative." -- David Sherman
Peter Moylan
May 23, 2014, 12:09:46 AM5/23/14
to
On 23/05/14 09:38, Robert Bannister wrote:
> I came across a lovely hyp-hen in a novel the other day.
Customarily, in this group, such an example is called a mishy-phen.
> I came across a lovely hyp-hen in a novel the other day.
> I presume the character was comparing her food to army fare, but "c-
> rations" brought me up with a jolt. I don't know whether "C-rations"
> actually exist as food in anyone's army, but I read it as "crations"
> which was very confusing.
the news right now.
Guy Barry
May 23, 2014, 5:55:53 AM5/23/14
to
"Mark Brader" wrote in message
news:aLidnbmhGtp9kOLO...@vex.net...
and final for the verb is so natural that I assumed speakers of other
dialects would differentiate in the same way (e.g. "my computer needs an
UPgrade"/"I must upGRADE my computer").
--
Guy Barry
news:aLidnbmhGtp9kOLO...@vex.net...
>
>Guy Barry:
>> I'd say "backdate" with the stress on the second syllable, for
>> instance. I can't think of any others with "back-", but as I mentioned
>> elsewhere I would pronounce the verbs "upgrade", "download", "outreach",
>> "overhaul" and so on with the stress on the final. Would AmE stress any
>> of
>> these on the first?
>
>All five of them, in my usage. Both as nouns and verbs, where applicable.
Oh, that's a surprise. For me the pattern of initial stress for the noun
>Guy Barry:
>> I'd say "backdate" with the stress on the second syllable, for
>> instance. I can't think of any others with "back-", but as I mentioned
>> elsewhere I would pronounce the verbs "upgrade", "download", "outreach",
>> "overhaul" and so on with the stress on the final. Would AmE stress any
>> of
>> these on the first?
>
>All five of them, in my usage. Both as nouns and verbs, where applicable.
and final for the verb is so natural that I assumed speakers of other
dialects would differentiate in the same way (e.g. "my computer needs an
UPgrade"/"I must upGRADE my computer").
--
Guy Barry
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
May 23, 2014, 7:40:46 AM5/23/14
to
On Fri, 23 May 2014 14:09:46 +1000, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>On 23/05/14 09:38, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>> I came across a lovely hyp-hen in a novel the other day.
>
>Customarily, in this group, such an example is called a mishy-phen.
>
>> I presume the character was comparing her food to army fare, but "c-
>> rations" brought me up with a jolt. I don't know whether "C-rations"
>> actually exist as food in anyone's army, but I read it as "crations"
>> which was very confusing.
>
>The upper case C would have made it worse, given that Croatians are in
>the news right now.
Eating C-rations -- OK.
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>On 23/05/14 09:38, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>> I came across a lovely hyp-hen in a novel the other day.
>
>Customarily, in this group, such an example is called a mishy-phen.
>
>> I presume the character was comparing her food to army fare, but "c-
>> rations" brought me up with a jolt. I don't know whether "C-rations"
>> actually exist as food in anyone's army, but I read it as "crations"
>> which was very confusing.
>
>The upper case C would have made it worse, given that Croatians are in
>the news right now.
Eating Croatians -- deprecated.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
May 23, 2014, 9:51:11 AM5/23/14
to
On Friday, May 23, 2014 3:48:43 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
> "Joe Fineman" wrote in message news:8461kx5...@verizon.net...
> >"Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
> >> I wouldn't include "backfire" in that list because it's a verb,
> >> stressed on the second syllable; but the others are nouns stressed on
> >> the first.
> >That is probably a transAtlantic difference. I have never heard
> >"backfire" with primary stress on the second syllable, either as noun or
> >as verb. I have trouble even trying to pronounce it that way. (Does
> >the first syllable get secondary stress, or none at all?)
>
> Here's Macmillan with the British pronunciation. The first syllable is
> marked as having secondary stress. (I think I have a different definition
> of "secondary stress" from some people, but it definitely contains a clear
> vowel when I say it.)
Then it has secondary stress.
> "Joe Fineman" wrote in message news:8461kx5...@verizon.net...
> >"Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
> >> I wouldn't include "backfire" in that list because it's a verb,
> >> stressed on the second syllable; but the others are nouns stressed on
> >> the first.
> >That is probably a transAtlantic difference. I have never heard
> >"backfire" with primary stress on the second syllable, either as noun or
> >as verb. I have trouble even trying to pronounce it that way. (Does
> >the first syllable get secondary stress, or none at all?)
>
> Here's Macmillan with the British pronunciation. The first syllable is
> marked as having secondary stress. (I think I have a different definition
> of "secondary stress" from some people, but it definitely contains a clear
> vowel when I say it.)
> http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/backfire
> The American pronunciation is indeed stressed the other way round:
> http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/backfire
> which strikes me as an odd stress pattern for a verb with a prefix of that
> type. I'd say "backdate" with the stress on the second syllable, for
> instance. I can't think of any others with "back-", but as I mentioned
> elsewhere I would pronounce the verbs "upgrade", "download", "outreach",
> "overhaul" and so on with the stress on the final. Would AmE stress any of
> these on the first?
Peter T. Daniels
May 23, 2014, 9:53:30 AM5/23/14
to
Mark Brader
May 23, 2014, 3:11:38 PM5/23/14
to
Robert Bannister:
originally, isn't it? I was thinking that Robert avoided the term
because it referred to hyphenations that were not only misleading,
but wrong according to normal hyphenation standards, like "warp-
lane". In the example in question, "C-ration" contains a hyphen
in any case, which by normal standards is always a correct place
to divide it (although house rules may not allow the separation
of one letter from the rest); it was only the small C that was wrong.
But thinking further about it, "mishy-phen" is itself hyphenated
in a correct position according to normal standards. So maybe I'm
just wrong and Peter is right.
What do you say?
[Posted and emailed]
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Let us knot coin gnu werds huitch
m...@vex.net are spelld rong." -- Rik Fischer Smoody
My text in this article is in the public domain.
> > I came across a lovely hyp-hen in a novel the other day.
Peter Moylan:
> Customarily, in this group, such an example is called a mishy-phen.
Donna Richoux, are you still around? "Mishy-phen" is your word
originally, isn't it? I was thinking that Robert avoided the term
because it referred to hyphenations that were not only misleading,
but wrong according to normal hyphenation standards, like "warp-
lane". In the example in question, "C-ration" contains a hyphen
in any case, which by normal standards is always a correct place
to divide it (although house rules may not allow the separation
of one letter from the rest); it was only the small C that was wrong.
But thinking further about it, "mishy-phen" is itself hyphenated
in a correct position according to normal standards. So maybe I'm
just wrong and Peter is right.
What do you say?
[Posted and emailed]
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Let us knot coin gnu werds huitch
m...@vex.net are spelld rong." -- Rik Fischer Smoody
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Robert Bannister
May 23, 2014, 9:52:16 PM5/23/14
to
noun. I'm not sure about "upgrade" and I don't know the word "outreach",
which sounds like a boating term. I agree with you on "overhaul".
Peter T. Daniels
May 23, 2014, 10:37:50 PM5/23/14
to
trying to help, but it isn't a verb. The agencies reach out to the poor.
Guy Barry
May 24, 2014, 4:34:31 AM5/24/14
to
"Robert Bannister" wrote in message
news:buacai...@mid.individual.net...
>I would definitely stress the first syllable in "download" - verb or noun.
>I'm not sure about "upgrade" and I don't know the word "outreach", which
>sounds like a boating term. I agree with you on "overhaul".
"Outreach" is a perfectly unremarkable verb meaning "exceed" or "surpass",
e.g. "the demand has outreached the supply", or "you've outreached yourself
with that remark". (There's also a noun "outreach" meaning "providing
services to those who wouldn't normally have them", but that's stressed on
the first.)
--
Guy Barry
news:buacai...@mid.individual.net...
>I would definitely stress the first syllable in "download" - verb or noun.
>I'm not sure about "upgrade" and I don't know the word "outreach", which
>sounds like a boating term. I agree with you on "overhaul".
e.g. "the demand has outreached the supply", or "you've outreached yourself
with that remark". (There's also a noun "outreach" meaning "providing
services to those who wouldn't normally have them", but that's stressed on
the first.)
--
Guy Barry
Guy Barry
May 24, 2014, 4:42:07 AM5/24/14
to
"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
news:65043a9f-cdae-4844...@googlegroups.com...
verb in the sense "exceed" or "surpass". Surely this isn't an unfamiliar
usage?
--
Guy Barry
Steve Hayes
May 24, 2014, 6:26:55 AM5/24/14
to
On Sat, 24 May 2014 09:42:07 +0100, "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:
Outreach is an adjective (and sometimes a noun) based on the verb "reach out".
I've never heard it used as a verb before.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
wrote:
I've never heard it used as a verb before.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Guy Barry
May 24, 2014, 6:44:53 AM5/24/14
to
"Steve Hayes" wrote in message
news:oqs0o9lsqldhc8hvr...@4ax.com...
expectations"? You're the third person who doesn't seem to have heard of
it. I knew the verb "outreach" long before I heard the noun "outreach"
(which isn't connected in meaning).
--
Guy Barry
news:oqs0o9lsqldhc8hvr...@4ax.com...
>>It's not a verb in that sense, but (as I said in reply to Robert) it's a
>>verb in the sense "exceed" or "surpass". Surely this isn't an unfamiliar
>>usage?
>
>Outreach is an adjective (and sometimes a noun) based on the verb "reach
>out".
>
>I've never heard it used as a verb before.
You mean you've never heard sentences like "the rooms far outreached our
>>verb in the sense "exceed" or "surpass". Surely this isn't an unfamiliar
>>usage?
>
>Outreach is an adjective (and sometimes a noun) based on the verb "reach
>out".
>
>I've never heard it used as a verb before.
expectations"? You're the third person who doesn't seem to have heard of
it. I knew the verb "outreach" long before I heard the noun "outreach"
(which isn't connected in meaning).
--
Guy Barry
Peter T. Daniels
May 24, 2014, 8:48:29 AM5/24/14
to
On Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:34:31 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
> "Robert Bannister" wrote in message
> news:buacai...@mid.individual.net...
> >I would definitely stress the first syllable in "download" - verb or noun.
> >I'm not sure about "upgrade" and I don't know the word "outreach", which
> >sounds like a boating term. I agree with you on "overhaul".
>
> "Outreach" is a perfectly unremarkable verb meaning "exceed" or "surpass",
> e.g. "the demand has outreached the supply", or "you've outreached yourself
> with that remark".
If such a word exists, it has even stress on the two syllables. Even
> "Robert Bannister" wrote in message
> news:buacai...@mid.individual.net...
> >I would definitely stress the first syllable in "download" - verb or noun.
> >I'm not sure about "upgrade" and I don't know the word "outreach", which
> >sounds like a boating term. I agree with you on "overhaul".
>
> "Outreach" is a perfectly unremarkable verb meaning "exceed" or "surpass",
> e.g. "the demand has outreached the supply", or "you've outreached yourself
> with that remark".
if it exists, it doesn't seem to have an associated noun.
> (There's also a noun "outreach" meaning "providing
> services to those who wouldn't normally have them", but that's stressed on
> the first.)
Peter T. Daniels
May 24, 2014, 8:52:03 AM5/24/14
to
anything, meaning 'do better than': out-argue, out-walk, out-instigate
-- i.e., not something that gets an entry in a lexicon, but that's
formed any time it's needed. It has full stress, and the word it's
attached to retains its full stress.
Peter T. Daniels
May 24, 2014, 8:54:55 AM5/24/14
to
I can't think what Steve means by an adjectival use, though.
Guy Barry
May 24, 2014, 9:00:18 AM5/24/14
to
"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
news:9e075aa2-4154-4234...@googlegroups.com...
>
>On Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:34:31 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>> "Robert Bannister" wrote in message
>> news:buacai...@mid.individual.net...
>
>> >I would definitely stress the first syllable in "download" - verb or
>> >noun.
>> >I'm not sure about "upgrade" and I don't know the word "outreach", which
>> >sounds like a boating term. I agree with you on "overhaul".
>>
>> "Outreach" is a perfectly unremarkable verb meaning "exceed" or
>> "surpass",
>> e.g. "the demand has outreached the supply", or "you've outreached
>> yourself
>> with that remark".
>
>If such a word exists, it has even stress on the two syllables. Even
>if it exists, it doesn't seem to have an associated noun.
What do you mean, "if it exists"? Here are some examples from "outreached"
>On Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:34:31 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>> "Robert Bannister" wrote in message
>> news:buacai...@mid.individual.net...
>
>> >I would definitely stress the first syllable in "download" - verb or
>> >noun.
>> >I'm not sure about "upgrade" and I don't know the word "outreach", which
>> >sounds like a boating term. I agree with you on "overhaul".
>>
>> "Outreach" is a perfectly unremarkable verb meaning "exceed" or
>> "surpass",
>> e.g. "the demand has outreached the supply", or "you've outreached
>> yourself
>> with that remark".
>
>If such a word exists, it has even stress on the two syllables. Even
>if it exists, it doesn't seem to have an associated noun.
from Google Books:
"While in theory this was a workable system, in practice the merchants'
greed far outreached the croppers' ability to pay up; they were charged
exorbitant interest for credit (up to 60 percent), and it took a good
harvest just to break even."
"It would have consequences that far outreached this particular camp on this
particular day, and it would outlive them all."
"Yet the influence of the temp industry as a whole far outreached even
Manpower's impressive numbers."
"At that time few Jewish national institutions existed that worked actively
in the country, so JNF involvement in 'building Eretz Yisrael' outreached
its initial goal."
Why are people so sceptical about the existence of this verb? There's no
associated noun as far as I know, but that doesn't mean the verb doesn't
exist. It's listed in my dictionary with two meanings: "to surpass in
reach" and "to exceed". And it's stressed on the final syllable.
>> (There's also a noun "outreach" meaning "providing
>> services to those who wouldn't normally have them", but that's stressed
>> on
>> the first.)
>
>That's the one that has no associated verb.
meaning. And I knew the verb years before the noun came along and we
suddenly had "outreach workers" all over the place. I'm sure they didn't
exist thirty years ago.
--
Guy Barry
John Ritson
May 24, 2014, 6:56:10 AM5/24/14
to
In article <oqs0o9lsqldhc8hvr...@4ax.com>, Steve Hayes
<haye...@telkomsa.net> writes
comparing two boxers.
--
John Ritson
<haye...@telkomsa.net> writes
>On Sat, 24 May 2014 09:42:07 +0100, "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
>>news:65043a9f-cdae-4844...@googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>On Friday, May 23, 2014 9:52:16 PM UTC-4, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>>>> I would definitely stress the first syllable in "download" - verb or
>>>> noun. I'm not sure about "upgrade" and I don't know the word "outreach",
>>>> which sounds like a boating term. I agree with you on "overhaul".
>>>
>>>Outreach is what charitable agencies do in the direction of those they're
>>>trying to help, but it isn't a verb. The agencies reach out to the poor.
>>
>>It's not a verb in that sense, but (as I said in reply to Robert) it's a
>>verb in the sense "exceed" or "surpass". Surely this isn't an unfamiliar
>>usage?
>
>Outreach is an adjective (and sometimes a noun) based on the verb "reach out".
>
>I've never heard it used as a verb before.
>
>
I have, but only in the literal sense of having a longer reach, as in
>wrote:
>
>>"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
>>news:65043a9f-cdae-4844...@googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>On Friday, May 23, 2014 9:52:16 PM UTC-4, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>>>> I would definitely stress the first syllable in "download" - verb or
>>>> noun. I'm not sure about "upgrade" and I don't know the word "outreach",
>>>> which sounds like a boating term. I agree with you on "overhaul".
>>>
>>>Outreach is what charitable agencies do in the direction of those they're
>>>trying to help, but it isn't a verb. The agencies reach out to the poor.
>>
>>It's not a verb in that sense, but (as I said in reply to Robert) it's a
>>verb in the sense "exceed" or "surpass". Surely this isn't an unfamiliar
>>usage?
>
>Outreach is an adjective (and sometimes a noun) based on the verb "reach out".
>
>I've never heard it used as a verb before.
>
>
comparing two boxers.
--
John Ritson
Peter T. Daniels
May 24, 2014, 3:48:02 PM5/24/14
to
Perhaps this is a Briticism.
Skitt
May 24, 2014, 7:52:13 PM5/24/14
to
On 5/24/2014 3:44 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://home.comcast.net/~skitt99/main.html
> "Steve Hayes" wrote:
>> "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>> It's not a verb in that sense, but (as I said in reply to Robert) it's a
>>> verb in the sense "exceed" or "surpass". Surely this isn't an
>>> unfamiliar usage?
>>
>> Outreach is an adjective (and sometimes a noun) based on the verb
>> "reach out".
>>
>> I've never heard it used as a verb before.
>
> You mean you've never heard sentences like "the rooms far outreached our
> expectations"? You're the third person who doesn't seem to have heard
> of it. I knew the verb "outreach" long before I heard the noun
> "outreach" (which isn't connected in meaning).
>
Add another to those who had never heard of "outreach" as a verb.
>> "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>> It's not a verb in that sense, but (as I said in reply to Robert) it's a
>>> verb in the sense "exceed" or "surpass". Surely this isn't an
>>> unfamiliar usage?
>>
>> Outreach is an adjective (and sometimes a noun) based on the verb
>> "reach out".
>>
>> I've never heard it used as a verb before.
>
> You mean you've never heard sentences like "the rooms far outreached our
> expectations"? You're the third person who doesn't seem to have heard
> of it. I knew the verb "outreach" long before I heard the noun
> "outreach" (which isn't connected in meaning).
>
--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://home.comcast.net/~skitt99/main.html
Skitt
May 24, 2014, 7:55:18 PM5/24/14
to
On 5/24/2014 3:56 AM, John Ritson wrote:
>>> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 23, 2014 9:52:16 PM UTC-4, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>> I would definitely stress the first syllable in "download" - verb or
>>>>> noun. I'm not sure about "upgrade" and I don't know the word "outreach",
>>>>> which sounds like a boating term. I agree with you on "overhaul".
>>>>
>>>> Outreach is what charitable agencies do in the direction of those they're
>>>> trying to help, but it isn't a verb. The agencies reach out to the poor.
>>>
>>> It's not a verb in that sense, but (as I said in reply to Robert) it's a
>>> verb in the sense "exceed" or "surpass". Surely this isn't an unfamiliar
>>> usage?
>>
>> Outreach is an adjective (and sometimes a noun) based on the verb "reach out".
>>
>> I've never heard it used as a verb before.
>>
> I have, but only in the literal sense of having a longer reach, as in
> comparing two boxers.
>
That's reach. Is there an inreach?
>>>> On Friday, May 23, 2014 9:52:16 PM UTC-4, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>> I would definitely stress the first syllable in "download" - verb or
>>>>> noun. I'm not sure about "upgrade" and I don't know the word "outreach",
>>>>> which sounds like a boating term. I agree with you on "overhaul".
>>>>
>>>> Outreach is what charitable agencies do in the direction of those they're
>>>> trying to help, but it isn't a verb. The agencies reach out to the poor.
>>>
>>> It's not a verb in that sense, but (as I said in reply to Robert) it's a
>>> verb in the sense "exceed" or "surpass". Surely this isn't an unfamiliar
>>> usage?
>>
>> Outreach is an adjective (and sometimes a noun) based on the verb "reach out".
>>
>> I've never heard it used as a verb before.
>>
> I have, but only in the literal sense of having a longer reach, as in
> comparing two boxers.
>
Robert Bannister
May 24, 2014, 9:33:03 PM5/24/14
to
Robert Bannister
May 24, 2014, 9:49:34 PM5/24/14
to
Steve Hayes
May 24, 2014, 10:56:38 PM5/24/14
to
On Sat, 24 May 2014 11:44:53 +0100, "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk>
sentence looks weird, and wrong to me. I would assume that it was used by an
ESL speaker if I saw it in the wild.
I've most often heard "outreach" used to describe the action of an
organisation or group of people reaching out to those beyond their immediate
members -- for example a church may have a soup kitchen for homeless people,
whether they are members of the church or not, and that would be described as
"outreach to the homeless". My daughter belongs to a church in Athens which
has had to do a lot of such outreach as a result of the EU-imposed austerity
measures.
wrote:
>"Steve Hayes" wrote in message
>news:oqs0o9lsqldhc8hvr...@4ax.com...
>>
>>On Sat, 24 May 2014 09:42:07 +0100, "Guy Barry"
>><guy....@blueyonder.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>
>>>It's not a verb in that sense, but (as I said in reply to Robert) it's a
>>>verb in the sense "exceed" or "surpass". Surely this isn't an unfamiliar
>>>usage?
>>
>>Outreach is an adjective (and sometimes a noun) based on the verb "reach
>>out".
>>
>>I've never heard it used as a verb before.
>
>You mean you've never heard sentences like "the rooms far outreached our
>expectations"? You're the third person who doesn't seem to have heard of
>it. I knew the verb "outreach" long before I heard the noun "outreach"
>(which isn't connected in meaning).
No, I'd never heard sentences like that, until you used them. And that
>"Steve Hayes" wrote in message
>news:oqs0o9lsqldhc8hvr...@4ax.com...
>>
>>On Sat, 24 May 2014 09:42:07 +0100, "Guy Barry"
>><guy....@blueyonder.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>
>>>It's not a verb in that sense, but (as I said in reply to Robert) it's a
>>>verb in the sense "exceed" or "surpass". Surely this isn't an unfamiliar
>>>usage?
>>
>>Outreach is an adjective (and sometimes a noun) based on the verb "reach
>>out".
>>
>>I've never heard it used as a verb before.
>
>You mean you've never heard sentences like "the rooms far outreached our
>expectations"? You're the third person who doesn't seem to have heard of
>it. I knew the verb "outreach" long before I heard the noun "outreach"
>(which isn't connected in meaning).
sentence looks weird, and wrong to me. I would assume that it was used by an
ESL speaker if I saw it in the wild.
I've most often heard "outreach" used to describe the action of an
organisation or group of people reaching out to those beyond their immediate
members -- for example a church may have a soup kitchen for homeless people,
whether they are members of the church or not, and that would be described as
"outreach to the homeless". My daughter belongs to a church in Athens which
has had to do a lot of such outreach as a result of the EU-imposed austerity
measures.
Guy Barry
May 25, 2014, 2:57:10 AM5/25/14
to
"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
news:f99be430-1f2f-4d8a...@googlegroups.com...
Bradley Anderson. Published in 2011 by Duke University Press (USA).
Second: "Yellowcake Springs, Volume 1" by Guy Salvidge. Published in 2011
by Glass House Books (Australia).
Third: "The Temp Economy: From Kelly Girls to Permatemps in Postwar America"
by Erin Hatton. Published in 2011 by Temple University Press (USA).
Fourth: "Propaganda and Zionist Education: The Jewish National Fund,
1924-1947" by Yoram Bar-Gal. Published in 2003 by University of Rochester
Press (USA)/University of Haifa Press (Israel).
>Perhaps this is a Briticism.
--
Guy Barry
Guy Barry
May 25, 2014, 3:38:30 AM5/25/14
to
"Skitt" wrote in message news:llrbb2$5n0$1...@news.albasani.net...
Please, please, please will *someone* admit to knowing the verb "outreach"
meaning "exceed" or "surpass"? It's not a Britishism or an obscure
technical term. It's just a bog-standard part of my vocabulary. It's
listed in the OED under meaning 4(a), although (interestingly) described as
"figurative":
"To reach or extend beyond; to exceed in reach; (fig.) to surpass, exceed."
a1568 R. Ascham Scholemaster (1570) Pref. to Rdr., I found the site so
good..but the making so costlie, outreaching my habilitie.
1598 R. Carew Herrings Tayle l. 91 Whereon, burden to the earth, and
enuie to the skye, Of Iacynth fiue, outreach the compasse of the eye.
1621 T. Middleton Entertainment at Bunhill in Honorable Entertainments
sig. B5v, Their Ayme is still Perfection, to outreach, And goe beyond each
other.
1646 Sir T. Browne Pseudodoxia Epidemica 385 This..may seeme to outreach
that fact, and to exceed the regular distinctions of murder.
1687 J. Scott Christian Life Pt. II (ed. 2) II. vii. 173 It puzzles my
conceit, and out-reaches my wonder.
1738 S. Boyse Poems i. 139 The different Passions, which our Lives
employ, Outreach our Footsteps, and forbid the Joy.
1766 H. Brooke Fool of Quality I. Pref. p. xxii, If a Man has length
enough of Sense to outreach all about him, by a Yard and a Half; He is, by a
Yard and Half, wiser than all his Neighbours.
1823 Scott St. Ronan's Well II. xvi. 291 By Heaven, I hate him so
much—for he has outreached me every way.
1879 P. Brooks Infl. of Jesus ii. 131 He..did a larger work which has
far outreached the Jewish people.
1903 J. London Call of Wild i. 20 He had learned to trust in men he
knew, and to give them credit for a wisdom that outreached his own.
1960 W. Connely Louis Sullivan viii. 115 It was Martin Roche..who not
only caused the word skyscraper to be repeated louder, but who outreached
Root in being ‘first’.
1989 Times Lit. Suppl. 12 May 517 In ‘The Caliph's Design’..Lewis's
far-reaching syntheses outreach his grasp.
--
Guy Barry
meaning "exceed" or "surpass"? It's not a Britishism or an obscure
technical term. It's just a bog-standard part of my vocabulary. It's
listed in the OED under meaning 4(a), although (interestingly) described as
"figurative":
"To reach or extend beyond; to exceed in reach; (fig.) to surpass, exceed."
a1568 R. Ascham Scholemaster (1570) Pref. to Rdr., I found the site so
good..but the making so costlie, outreaching my habilitie.
1598 R. Carew Herrings Tayle l. 91 Whereon, burden to the earth, and
enuie to the skye, Of Iacynth fiue, outreach the compasse of the eye.
1621 T. Middleton Entertainment at Bunhill in Honorable Entertainments
sig. B5v, Their Ayme is still Perfection, to outreach, And goe beyond each
other.
1646 Sir T. Browne Pseudodoxia Epidemica 385 This..may seeme to outreach
that fact, and to exceed the regular distinctions of murder.
1687 J. Scott Christian Life Pt. II (ed. 2) II. vii. 173 It puzzles my
conceit, and out-reaches my wonder.
1738 S. Boyse Poems i. 139 The different Passions, which our Lives
employ, Outreach our Footsteps, and forbid the Joy.
1766 H. Brooke Fool of Quality I. Pref. p. xxii, If a Man has length
enough of Sense to outreach all about him, by a Yard and a Half; He is, by a
Yard and Half, wiser than all his Neighbours.
1823 Scott St. Ronan's Well II. xvi. 291 By Heaven, I hate him so
much—for he has outreached me every way.
1879 P. Brooks Infl. of Jesus ii. 131 He..did a larger work which has
far outreached the Jewish people.
1903 J. London Call of Wild i. 20 He had learned to trust in men he
knew, and to give them credit for a wisdom that outreached his own.
1960 W. Connely Louis Sullivan viii. 115 It was Martin Roche..who not
only caused the word skyscraper to be repeated louder, but who outreached
Root in being ‘first’.
1989 Times Lit. Suppl. 12 May 517 In ‘The Caliph's Design’..Lewis's
far-reaching syntheses outreach his grasp.
--
Guy Barry
Guy Barry
May 25, 2014, 3:51:29 AM5/25/14
to
"Robert Bannister" wrote in message
news:bud0hg...@mid.individual.net...
--
Guy Barry
Katy Jennison
May 25, 2014, 5:31:57 AM5/25/14
to
On 25/05/2014 08:38, Guy Barry wrote:
>
> Please, please, please will *someone* admit to knowing the verb
> "outreach" meaning "exceed" or "surpass"? It's not a Britishism or an
> obscure technical term. It's just a bog-standard part of my
> vocabulary.
No, I'm not familiar with it, either. I'm just yielding to the
>
> Please, please, please will *someone* admit to knowing the verb
> "outreach" meaning "exceed" or "surpass"? It's not a Britishism or an
> obscure technical term. It's just a bog-standard part of my
> vocabulary.
temptation to suggest that what you're effectively asking for, here, is
a "+1" post.
--
Katy Jennison
Guy Barry
May 25, 2014, 5:42:07 AM5/25/14
to
"Katy Jennison" wrote in message news:llsdad$kl5$1...@news.albasani.net...
Actually all the "+1"s have been against me so far. I'm looking for a "-1".
--
Guy Barry
--
Guy Barry
musika
May 25, 2014, 7:03:21 AM5/25/14
to
On 25/05/2014 08:38, Guy Barry wrote:
> Please, please, please will *someone* admit to knowing the verb
> "outreach" meaning "exceed" or "surpass"?
>
+1
> "outreach" meaning "exceed" or "surpass"?
>
--
Ray
UK
CDB
May 25, 2014, 7:36:52 AM5/25/14
to
On 24/05/2014 7:52 PM, Skitt wrote:
> Guy Barry wrote:
>> "Steve Hayes" wrote:
>>> "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> It's not a verb in that sense, but (as I said in reply to
>>>> Robert) it's a verb in the sense "exceed" or "surpass". Surely
>>>> this isn't an unfamiliar usage?
>>> Outreach is an adjective (and sometimes a noun) based on the
>>> verb "reach out".
>>> I've never heard it used as a verb before.
>> You mean you've never heard sentences like "the rooms far
>> outreached our expectations"? You're the third person who doesn't
>> seem to have heard of it. I knew the verb "outreach" long before I
>> heard the noun "outreach" (which isn't connected in meaning).
> Add another to those who had never heard of "outreach" as a verb.
More a case of productive prefix, really. You can outreach, outgrasp,
> Guy Barry wrote:
>> "Steve Hayes" wrote:
>>> "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> It's not a verb in that sense, but (as I said in reply to
>>>> Robert) it's a verb in the sense "exceed" or "surpass". Surely
>>>> this isn't an unfamiliar usage?
>>> Outreach is an adjective (and sometimes a noun) based on the
>>> verb "reach out".
>>> I've never heard it used as a verb before.
>> You mean you've never heard sentences like "the rooms far
>> outreached our expectations"? You're the third person who doesn't
>> seem to have heard of it. I knew the verb "outreach" long before I
>> heard the noun "outreach" (which isn't connected in meaning).
> Add another to those who had never heard of "outreach" as a verb.
outshout, outfight, outkvetch, outwait, or outpost someone, thus
surpassing him in some named activity.
Steve Hayes
May 25, 2014, 7:55:18 AM5/25/14
to
On Sun, 25 May 2014 08:38:30 +0100, "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:
>"Skitt" wrote in message news:llrbb2$5n0$1...@news.albasani.net...
>>
>>On 5/24/2014 3:44 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
>
>>> You mean you've never heard sentences like "the rooms far outreached our
>>> expectations"? You're the third person who doesn't seem to have heard
>>> of it. I knew the verb "outreach" long before I heard the noun
>>> "outreach" (which isn't connected in meaning).
>>>
>>Add another to those who had never heard of "outreach" as a verb.
>
>Please, please, please will *someone* admit to knowing the verb "outreach"
>meaning "exceed" or "surpass"? It's not a Britishism or an obscure
>technical term. It's just a bog-standard part of my vocabulary. It's
>listed in the OED under meaning 4(a), although (interestingly) described as
>"figurative":
There are lots of words in the OED that are not in my bog-standard vocab, and
some not in my vocab at all.
Perhaps it goes along with "outwith" which I hadn't heard until British
politicians used it to excess during the ascendancy of Tony Blair, along with
"remit" (as a noun) and other peculiar turns of phrase. Do British politicians
still use "outwith"?
wrote:
>"Skitt" wrote in message news:llrbb2$5n0$1...@news.albasani.net...
>>
>>On 5/24/2014 3:44 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
>
>>> You mean you've never heard sentences like "the rooms far outreached our
>>> expectations"? You're the third person who doesn't seem to have heard
>>> of it. I knew the verb "outreach" long before I heard the noun
>>> "outreach" (which isn't connected in meaning).
>>>
>>Add another to those who had never heard of "outreach" as a verb.
>
>Please, please, please will *someone* admit to knowing the verb "outreach"
>meaning "exceed" or "surpass"? It's not a Britishism or an obscure
>technical term. It's just a bog-standard part of my vocabulary. It's
>listed in the OED under meaning 4(a), although (interestingly) described as
>"figurative":
some not in my vocab at all.
Perhaps it goes along with "outwith" which I hadn't heard until British
politicians used it to excess during the ascendancy of Tony Blair, along with
"remit" (as a noun) and other peculiar turns of phrase. Do British politicians
still use "outwith"?
Dr Nick
May 25, 2014, 8:10:19 AM5/25/14
to
Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:
> On Sun, 25 May 2014 08:38:30 +0100, "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>"Skitt" wrote in message news:llrbb2$5n0$1...@news.albasani.net...
>>>
>>>On 5/24/2014 3:44 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
>>
>>>> You mean you've never heard sentences like "the rooms far outreached our
>>>> expectations"? You're the third person who doesn't seem to have heard
>>>> of it. I knew the verb "outreach" long before I heard the noun
>>>> "outreach" (which isn't connected in meaning).
>>>>
>>>Add another to those who had never heard of "outreach" as a verb.
>>
>>Please, please, please will *someone* admit to knowing the verb "outreach"
>>meaning "exceed" or "surpass"? It's not a Britishism or an obscure
>>technical term. It's just a bog-standard part of my vocabulary. It's
>>listed in the OED under meaning 4(a), although (interestingly) described as
>>"figurative":
>
> There are lots of words in the OED that are not in my bog-standard vocab, and
> some not in my vocab at all.
>
> Perhaps it goes along with "outwith" which I hadn't heard until British
> politicians used it to excess during the ascendancy of Tony Blair, along with
> "remit" (as a noun) and other peculiar turns of phrase. Do British politicians
> still use "outwith"?
Outwith is a perfectly normal scottish word. I suspect at some stage
> On Sun, 25 May 2014 08:38:30 +0100, "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>"Skitt" wrote in message news:llrbb2$5n0$1...@news.albasani.net...
>>>
>>>On 5/24/2014 3:44 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
>>
>>>> You mean you've never heard sentences like "the rooms far outreached our
>>>> expectations"? You're the third person who doesn't seem to have heard
>>>> of it. I knew the verb "outreach" long before I heard the noun
>>>> "outreach" (which isn't connected in meaning).
>>>>
>>>Add another to those who had never heard of "outreach" as a verb.
>>
>>Please, please, please will *someone* admit to knowing the verb "outreach"
>>meaning "exceed" or "surpass"? It's not a Britishism or an obscure
>>technical term. It's just a bog-standard part of my vocabulary. It's
>>listed in the OED under meaning 4(a), although (interestingly) described as
>>"figurative":
>
> There are lots of words in the OED that are not in my bog-standard vocab, and
> some not in my vocab at all.
>
> Perhaps it goes along with "outwith" which I hadn't heard until British
> politicians used it to excess during the ascendancy of Tony Blair, along with
> "remit" (as a noun) and other peculiar turns of phrase. Do British politicians
> still use "outwith"?
he'd deliberately adopted in a desperate attempt to seem a man of the
people. Others probably picked it up from him.
"Remit" has been a noun in political management use since the year dot.
Google ngrams show "outside my remit" as appearing in 1977.
Richard Yates
May 25, 2014, 9:08:15 AM5/25/14
to
On Sun, 25 May 2014 08:38:30 +0100, "Guy Barry"
<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Please, please, please will *someone* admit to knowing the verb "outreach"
>meaning "exceed" or "surpass"? It's not a Britishism or an obscure
>technical term. It's just a bog-standard part of my vocabulary. It's
>listed in the OED under meaning 4(a), although (interestingly) described as
>"figurative":
I may have heard it used in the literal sense: "Two basketball players
<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Please, please, please will *someone* admit to knowing the verb "outreach"
>meaning "exceed" or "surpass"? It's not a Britishism or an obscure
>technical term. It's just a bog-standard part of my vocabulary. It's
>listed in the OED under meaning 4(a), although (interestingly) described as
>"figurative":
jumped for the rebound but Jones outreached Smith" but, on second
thought, that is probably just "out reached."
Guy Barry
May 25, 2014, 9:25:33 AM5/25/14
to
"musika" wrote in message news:llsilq$ksb$1...@dont-email.me...
I should have known someone would do that.
--
Guy Barry
--
Guy Barry
Guy Barry
May 25, 2014, 9:38:44 AM5/25/14
to
"Steve Hayes" wrote in message
news:q9m3o9pf06bod3irn...@4ax.com...
>>Please, please, please will *someone* admit to knowing the verb "outreach"
>>meaning "exceed" or "surpass"? It's not a Britishism or an obscure
>>technical term. It's just a bog-standard part of my vocabulary. It's
>>listed in the OED under meaning 4(a), although (interestingly) described
>>as
>>"figurative":
>
>There are lots of words in the OED that are not in my bog-standard vocab,
>and
>some not in my vocab at all.
Yes, but it's not just in the OED, it's in everyday dictionaries as well. I
>>meaning "exceed" or "surpass"? It's not a Britishism or an obscure
>>technical term. It's just a bog-standard part of my vocabulary. It's
>>listed in the OED under meaning 4(a), although (interestingly) described
>>as
>>"figurative":
>
>There are lots of words in the OED that are not in my bog-standard vocab,
>and
>some not in my vocab at all.
quoted the OED in order to provide some further examples.
>Perhaps it goes along with "outwith" which I hadn't heard until British
>politicians used it to excess during the ascendancy of Tony Blair, along
>with
>"remit" (as a noun) and other peculiar turns of phrase. Do British
>politicians
>still use "outwith"?
before I moved to Scotland. The only politicians who use it to my knowledge
are Scottish ones.
Why would the noun "remit" have been unfamiliar to you? I hear expressions
like "it's not within my remit" all the time.
--
Guy Barry
Steve Hayes
May 25, 2014, 12:56:48 PM5/25/14
to
never heard my mother use it, but I wondered if the use of "outreach" as a
verb might be related -- ie a Scottish usage.
>
>"Remit" has been a noun in political management use since the year dot.
>Google ngrams show "outside my remit" as appearing in 1977.
me. It seems to have spread slowly, and only impinged on our consciousness
much later, about 15 years ago.
LFS
May 25, 2014, 1:07:53 PM5/25/14
to
I've certainly come across the word it but I don't think I've ever used
it. I think I would probably use "overreach" in some of the contexts
that you quote.
But "reach" seems to have some odd meanings, too: as I observed
elsethread recently, I'm not accustomed to "reach" being used in the
sense of passing something to someone.
--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
Donna Richoux
May 25, 2014, 2:25:03 PM5/25/14
to
Robert Bannister:
> > > I came across a lovely hyp-hen in a novel the other day.
Peter Moylan:
> > Customarily, in this group, such an example is called a mishy-phen.
Mark Brader:
> Donna Richoux, are you still around? "Mishy-phen" is your word
> originally, isn't it? I was thinking that Robert avoided the term
> because it referred to hyphenations that were not only misleading,
> but wrong according to normal hyphenation standards, like "warp-
> lane". In the example in question, "C-ration" contains a hyphen
> in any case, which by normal standards is always a correct place
> to divide it (although house rules may not allow the separation
> of one letter from the rest); it was only the small C that was wrong.
>
> But thinking further about it, "mishy-phen" is itself hyphenated
> in a correct position according to normal standards. So maybe I'm
> just wrong and Peter is right.
>
> What do you say?
>
> [Posted and emailed]
[Posted by Mark Brader on behalf of Donna Richoux]
Hi, Mark, thanks for asking. Greetings to Peter and Robert and all of
a.u.e.
After thinking about this awhile, I looked for a list of the mishy-phens we
collected. The copy on my own computer is refusing to open, too many system
changes I'm afraid. But I found it in Google Groups. The link they suggest
almost works -- it brings you the the end of a list of all the posts in the
thread, so scroll up and open the first one.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.usage.english/HmfDUNg4QdY
> Donna Richoux
> 5/21/04
> Mishy-phens 2004
> A discussion elsewhere on mishy-phens prompted me to check my notes.
[snip]
I'm not going to re-post the whole message but by looking at it I was able
to remember what made something a mishy-phen. For one thing, it had to
actually appear in print or digitally -- it could not be merely invention,
like "wouldn't it be funny if you broke a word this way".
You could say that most of those examples "fail to follow the hyphenation
rules" but not all do, like code-pendent and war-rant. The point was that
the lind-ending hyphen led to a misleading pronunciation and therefore
meaning, causing a jolt to the reader. "Warp-lane" would be a mishy-phen
because you are led to think it refers to warp, not war.
Mishy-phen is a mishy-phen because the theoretical writer didn't intend for
us to see it as "mishy," as in "fishy". ("Mis-hyphen" would follow the
rules and be clearer.)
I looked up exactly what it was Robert first said about "C-ration" -- it
made him think of "Cration". Although his experience of jolting confusion
is much like the mishy-phens already found, I'd have to say it is
significantly different. "C-ration" has a fixed hyphen already, like like
topsy-turvy or hit-or-miss. The rules say you can break those at the
hyphen. The problem here is that one part of the compound is a single
letter. Robert's problem must have been due to the single letter (as well
as being a somewhat rare word).
I think there would have to be more instances before this would warrant
being a mishy-phen, or a special category of mishy-phen. Nobody has yet
reported that words like like A-bomb and T-shirt led to this sort of
confusion. It would have to be one that changed significantly with the loss
of the hyphen...
Best -- Donna Richoux
[Please re-post this into the group -- I'm not set up for Usenet at
present.]
> > > I came across a lovely hyp-hen in a novel the other day.
Peter Moylan:
> > Customarily, in this group, such an example is called a mishy-phen.
Mark Brader:
> Donna Richoux, are you still around? "Mishy-phen" is your word
> originally, isn't it? I was thinking that Robert avoided the term
> because it referred to hyphenations that were not only misleading,
> but wrong according to normal hyphenation standards, like "warp-
> lane". In the example in question, "C-ration" contains a hyphen
> in any case, which by normal standards is always a correct place
> to divide it (although house rules may not allow the separation
> of one letter from the rest); it was only the small C that was wrong.
>
> But thinking further about it, "mishy-phen" is itself hyphenated
> in a correct position according to normal standards. So maybe I'm
> just wrong and Peter is right.
>
> What do you say?
>
> [Posted and emailed]
[Posted by Mark Brader on behalf of Donna Richoux]
Hi, Mark, thanks for asking. Greetings to Peter and Robert and all of
a.u.e.
After thinking about this awhile, I looked for a list of the mishy-phens we
collected. The copy on my own computer is refusing to open, too many system
changes I'm afraid. But I found it in Google Groups. The link they suggest
almost works -- it brings you the the end of a list of all the posts in the
thread, so scroll up and open the first one.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.usage.english/HmfDUNg4QdY
> Donna Richoux
> 5/21/04
> Mishy-phens 2004
> A discussion elsewhere on mishy-phens prompted me to check my notes.
[snip]
I'm not going to re-post the whole message but by looking at it I was able
to remember what made something a mishy-phen. For one thing, it had to
actually appear in print or digitally -- it could not be merely invention,
like "wouldn't it be funny if you broke a word this way".
You could say that most of those examples "fail to follow the hyphenation
rules" but not all do, like code-pendent and war-rant. The point was that
the lind-ending hyphen led to a misleading pronunciation and therefore
meaning, causing a jolt to the reader. "Warp-lane" would be a mishy-phen
because you are led to think it refers to warp, not war.
Mishy-phen is a mishy-phen because the theoretical writer didn't intend for
us to see it as "mishy," as in "fishy". ("Mis-hyphen" would follow the
rules and be clearer.)
I looked up exactly what it was Robert first said about "C-ration" -- it
made him think of "Cration". Although his experience of jolting confusion
is much like the mishy-phens already found, I'd have to say it is
significantly different. "C-ration" has a fixed hyphen already, like like
topsy-turvy or hit-or-miss. The rules say you can break those at the
hyphen. The problem here is that one part of the compound is a single
letter. Robert's problem must have been due to the single letter (as well
as being a somewhat rare word).
I think there would have to be more instances before this would warrant
being a mishy-phen, or a special category of mishy-phen. Nobody has yet
reported that words like like A-bomb and T-shirt led to this sort of
confusion. It would have to be one that changed significantly with the loss
of the hyphen...
Best -- Donna Richoux
[Please re-post this into the group -- I'm not set up for Usenet at
present.]
Mike L
May 25, 2014, 5:50:11 PM5/25/14
to
Orchestra kindly announced that I and another oldie had outladded the
lads.
--
Mike.
Robert Bannister
May 25, 2014, 6:42:48 PM5/25/14
to
On 26/05/2014 2:25 am, Donna Richoux wrote:
> I think there would have to be more instances before this would warrant
> being a mishy-phen, or a special category of mishy-phen. Nobody has yet
> reported that words like like A-bomb and T-shirt led to this sort of
> confusion. It would have to be one that changed significantly with the loss
> of the hyphen...
All those names that have either disappeared or appear only rarely these
> I think there would have to be more instances before this would warrant
> being a mishy-phen, or a special category of mishy-phen. Nobody has yet
> reported that words like like A-bomb and T-shirt led to this sort of
> confusion. It would have to be one that changed significantly with the loss
> of the hyphen...
days. Lovely to hear from you.
Back to the point, I would say that words of the form "A-bomb",
"T-shirt" only cause problems if the second word begins with a vowel or
a letter like r or l followed by a vowel in such a way that the word can
be pronounced wrongly without the hyphen.
A quick google for "A-", "B-", "C-", etc. only turned up words that have
been formed that way deliberately for advertising purposes (for example,
"B-east", apparently for a number of burger outlets in eastern parts of
various cities). I didn't go through the whole alphabet, though.
Robert Bannister
May 25, 2014, 6:44:36 PM5/25/14
to
"mit" to the "re".
Robert Bannister
May 25, 2014, 6:46:42 PM5/25/14
to
On 25/05/2014 9:38 pm, Guy Barry wrote:
> Why would the noun "remit" have been unfamiliar to you? I hear
> expressions like "it's not within my remit" all the time.
>
You do now. Earlier they used "area of competence", but as most
> Why would the noun "remit" have been unfamiliar to you? I hear
> expressions like "it's not within my remit" all the time.
>
politicians are incompetent, they didn't like that. "Gift" was also used
in the specialised feudal meaning.
Mark Brader
May 25, 2014, 7:07:16 PM5/25/14
to
Guy Barry:
Robert Bannister:
--
Mark Brader | "Mechanics, musicians, and programmers all know
Toronto | how to arrange numerous small units into logical
m...@vex.net | patterns such that the arrangement has the power
| to move something in a profound way." -- Barry Kort
>> Why would the noun "remit" have been unfamiliar to you? I hear
>> expressions like "it's not within my remit" all the time.
It's Pondian.
>> expressions like "it's not within my remit" all the time.
Robert Bannister:
> You do now. Earlier they used "area of competence", but as most
> politicians are incompetent, they didn't like that.
Well, "remit" is supposed to be about responsibility, not competence, right?
> politicians are incompetent, they didn't like that.
--
Mark Brader | "Mechanics, musicians, and programmers all know
Toronto | how to arrange numerous small units into logical
m...@vex.net | patterns such that the arrangement has the power
| to move something in a profound way." -- Barry Kort
Steve Hayes
May 26, 2014, 12:05:15 AM5/26/14
to
On Mon, 26 May 2014 06:44:36 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com>
wrote:
In the verb the stress remains on the mit.
It is in its more recent use as a noun that the stress is on the re.
I first became aware of it in about 2005 or 2006 when the TV was showing a
debate in the UK parliament, and Charles Kennedy, then the leader of the
Lib-Dems, was speaking, and used the noun several times.
wrote:
It is in its more recent use as a noun that the stress is on the re.
I first became aware of it in about 2005 or 2006 when the TV was showing a
debate in the UK parliament, and Charles Kennedy, then the leader of the
Lib-Dems, was speaking, and used the noun several times.
Message has been deleted
Guy Barry
May 26, 2014, 2:00:53 AM5/26/14
to
"Donna Richoux" wrote in message
news:XuednRcXFuviqB_O...@vex.net...
[posted by Mark Brader on her behalf]
>[Please re-post this into the group -- I'm not set up for Usenet at
>present.]
How does Donna manage to post the FAQ if that's the case?
--
Guy Barry
news:XuednRcXFuviqB_O...@vex.net...
[posted by Mark Brader on her behalf]
>[Please re-post this into the group -- I'm not set up for Usenet at
>present.]
--
Guy Barry
Guy Barry
May 26, 2014, 2:14:39 AM5/26/14
to
"Mike L" wrote in message
news:29p4o955823os50on...@4ax.com...
That's a slightly different formation, where "out-" is added to a noun to
form a nonce verb, normally in the pattern "to out-X X". It goes back to
Shakespeare:
"I would have such a fellow whipped for o'erdoing Termagant. It out-Herods
Herod. Pray you, avoid it." (Hamlet)
--
Guy Barry
news:29p4o955823os50on...@4ax.com...
form a nonce verb, normally in the pattern "to out-X X". It goes back to
Shakespeare:
"I would have such a fellow whipped for o'erdoing Termagant. It out-Herods
Herod. Pray you, avoid it." (Hamlet)
--
Guy Barry
Guy Barry
May 26, 2014, 3:10:03 AM5/26/14
to
"Lewis" wrote in message news:slrnlo5kof....@amelia.local...
>
>In message <V5hgv.290401$Fw5....@fx28.am4>
>noun.
Thank goodness for that. I was beginning to think I was going mad.
>I'm not sure I've ever *used* it, however.
It's probably part of my passive rather than active vocabulary, but it's not
something I'd regard as a "difficult" or "obscure" word - it's one I come
across fairly frequently in my reading, and I've never had any difficulty
interpreting it. I was amazed by how many people here had apparently never
encountered it.
--
Guy Barry
>
>In message <V5hgv.290401$Fw5....@fx28.am4>
> Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> Please, please, please will *someone* admit to knowing the verb
>> "outreach"
>> meaning "exceed" or "surpass"? It's not a Britishism or an obscure
>> technical term. It's just a bog-standard part of my vocabulary. It's
>> listed in the OED under meaning 4(a), although (interestingly) described
>> as
>> "figurative":
>
>Yes, of course. Like you, I encountered the verb form long before the
>> Please, please, please will *someone* admit to knowing the verb
>> "outreach"
>> meaning "exceed" or "surpass"? It's not a Britishism or an obscure
>> technical term. It's just a bog-standard part of my vocabulary. It's
>> listed in the OED under meaning 4(a), although (interestingly) described
>> as
>> "figurative":
>
>noun.
Thank goodness for that. I was beginning to think I was going mad.
>I'm not sure I've ever *used* it, however.
It's probably part of my passive rather than active vocabulary, but it's not
something I'd regard as a "difficult" or "obscure" word - it's one I come
across fairly frequently in my reading, and I've never had any difficulty
interpreting it. I was amazed by how many people here had apparently never
encountered it.
--
Guy Barry
Message has been deleted
Guy Barry
May 26, 2014, 3:39:26 AM5/26/14
to
"Lewis" wrote in message news:slrnlo5rph....@amelia.local...
>
>In message <pMAgv.165453$B%3.12...@fx23.am4>
>"She" doesn't, it's an automated post.
OK, but she's presumably responsible for the software that posts the FAQ,
which suggests she must have some sort of access to Usenet.
--
Guy Barry
>
>In message <pMAgv.165453$B%3.12...@fx23.am4>
OK, but she's presumably responsible for the software that posts the FAQ,
which suggests she must have some sort of access to Usenet.
--
Guy Barry
Dr Nick
May 26, 2014, 4:06:52 AM5/26/14
to
would be outside my REmit to reMIT that to the committee".
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
May 26, 2014, 7:32:59 AM5/26/14
to
She composed the FAQ posts way back when. They are sent, on her behalf,
to AUE at intervals by the AUE webmaster, Mike Barnes, (or by a system
used by him).
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
donnar...@gmail.com
May 26, 2014, 7:54:44 AM5/26/14
to
Since I'm no longer active, II would have no problem with the webmaster taking my name off the automatic posting and putting on something more neutral, like "Introduction to AUE". (This message cc'd to Mike Barnes).
Or better yet, perhaps someone who is still active would like to take on the project of keeping those pages updated and useful (mostly by changing broken links). Then his or her name could go in that space if they like. Volunteer?
Best -- Donna Richoux
Peter T. Daniels
May 26, 2014, 8:36:00 AM5/26/14
to
On Monday, May 26, 2014 2:00:53 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
> How does Donna manage to post the FAQ if that's the case?
She doesn't. I inquired about that when I first came here, since she
> How does Donna manage to post the FAQ if that's the case?
herself had disappeared (and was assured she was not deceased). The
real Donna, obviously, would have updated it since 2007 or whatever
it says the date is.
Mike L, in fact, 'fessed up to being the "owner" of aue and took
responsibility for the bot's endless recycling of the five messages.
Peter T. Daniels
May 26, 2014, 8:38:40 AM5/26/14
to
On Monday, May 26, 2014 3:10:03 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
> It's probably part of my passive rather than active vocabulary, but it's not
> something I'd regard as a "difficult" or "obscure" word - it's one I come
> across fairly frequently in my reading, and I've never had any difficulty
> interpreting it. I was amazed by how many people here had apparently never
> encountered it.
Even if one _had_ encountered it, there's no reason one should remember
> It's probably part of my passive rather than active vocabulary, but it's not
> something I'd regard as a "difficult" or "obscure" word - it's one I come
> across fairly frequently in my reading, and I've never had any difficulty
> interpreting it. I was amazed by how many people here had apparently never
> encountered it.
doing so, any more than remembering encountering any such "out-" compound.
What's odd is that there's a dictionary entry for it.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
May 26, 2014, 8:40:44 AM5/26/14
to
Guy Barry
May 26, 2014, 8:48:31 AM5/26/14
to
"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
news:60eb2b68-3519-4c75...@googlegroups.com...
--
Guy Barry
Guy Barry
May 26, 2014, 8:54:49 AM5/26/14
to
"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
news:24683045-53c1-4ab2...@googlegroups.com...
further than". It certainly *can* have that meaning; but it most often has
the meaning of "exceed" or "surpass", as I said. If the meaning can't be
derived directly from the components, it needs its own dictionary entry.
--
Guy Barry
Tony Cooper
May 26, 2014, 9:42:17 AM5/26/14
to
tribute to one of our most level-headed and helpful contributors.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
LFS
May 26, 2014, 10:09:19 AM5/26/14
to
Katy Jennison
May 26, 2014, 2:56:16 PM5/26/14
to
On 26/05/2014 14:42, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>
> Let the messages remain linked to "Donna Richoux" as a
> tribute to one of our most level-headed and helpful contributors.
>
Hear hear.
> tribute to one of our most level-headed and helpful contributors.
>
--
Katy Jennison
Jenn
May 26, 2014, 3:03:43 PM5/26/14
to
--
Jenn
Mike L
May 26, 2014, 3:47:44 PM5/26/14
to
--
Mike.
Mike L
May 26, 2014, 3:48:58 PM5/26/14
to
--
Mike.
Peter T. Daniels
May 26, 2014, 7:22:47 PM5/26/14
to
so there is no need to treat it specially; why is 'exceed' not equivalent
to 'reach further than'?
Robert Bannister
May 26, 2014, 8:33:42 PM5/26/14
to
Robert Bannister
May 26, 2014, 8:41:32 PM5/26/14
to
On 26/05/2014 7:07 am, Mark Brader wrote:
> Guy Barry:
>>> Why would the noun "remit" have been unfamiliar to you? I hear
>>> expressions like "it's not within my remit" all the time.
>
> It's Pondian.
>
> Robert Bannister:
>> You do now. Earlier they used "area of competence", but as most
>> politicians are incompetent, they didn't like that.
>
> Well, "remit" is supposed to be about responsibility, not competence, right?
>
competence
> Guy Barry:
>>> Why would the noun "remit" have been unfamiliar to you? I hear
>>> expressions like "it's not within my remit" all the time.
>
> It's Pondian.
>
> Robert Bannister:
>> You do now. Earlier they used "area of competence", but as most
>> politicians are incompetent, they didn't like that.
>
> Well, "remit" is supposed to be about responsibility, not competence, right?
>
1632, "sufficiency of means for living at ease," from Fr. comp�tence,
from L. competentia "meeting together, agreement, symmetry," from
competens, prp. of competere (see compete). Meaning "sufficiency to deal
with what is at hand" is from 1790.
Today, "competence" is mainly used to mean "ability" or "skill". "Within
my competence" means or meant "within my area of expertise or control".
The usual noun from "remit" is "remission" and the primary meanings of
the verb are "transmit" or "abate, pardon, relax". The idea of "area of
authority" is, according to dictionary.com "chiefly British", with no
further explanation as to how this strange deviation came about.
Steve Hayes
May 27, 2014, 12:23:30 AM5/27/14
to
On Tue, 27 May 2014 08:41:32 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com>
wrote:
>competence
>1632, "sufficiency of means for living at ease," from Fr. compétence,
Where Britpols use "REmit", I would use "mandate".
wrote:
>competence
>1632, "sufficiency of means for living at ease," from Fr. compétence,
>from L. competentia "meeting together, agreement, symmetry," from
>competens, prp. of competere (see compete). Meaning "sufficiency to deal
>with what is at hand" is from 1790.
>
>Today, "competence" is mainly used to mean "ability" or "skill". "Within
>my competence" means or meant "within my area of expertise or control".
>The usual noun from "remit" is "remission" and the primary meanings of
>the verb are "transmit" or "abate, pardon, relax". The idea of "area of
>authority" is, according to dictionary.com "chiefly British", with no
>further explanation as to how this strange deviation came about.
And then there is "remittance".
>competens, prp. of competere (see compete). Meaning "sufficiency to deal
>with what is at hand" is from 1790.
>
>Today, "competence" is mainly used to mean "ability" or "skill". "Within
>my competence" means or meant "within my area of expertise or control".
>The usual noun from "remit" is "remission" and the primary meanings of
>the verb are "transmit" or "abate, pardon, relax". The idea of "area of
>authority" is, according to dictionary.com "chiefly British", with no
>further explanation as to how this strange deviation came about.
Where Britpols use "REmit", I would use "mandate".
Guy Barry
May 27, 2014, 1:41:43 AM5/27/14
to
"Mike L" wrote in message
news:dh67o917i9borvibt...@4ax.com...
had almost nothing to do with Fowler's original work", I can't agree.
If the intro document is largely Donna's work, then her name should
certainly appear on it; but surely the right place is in the document
itself. At the moment the misleading impression is being given that Donna
is responsible for posting the document to the group. I think the name
appearing on the post should be either that of Mike Barnes, who's actually
responsible for posting it, or some neutral tag like "AUE Intro Document" to
distinguish it from the regular posts to the group.
Is it possible to gauge how useful the document is? I don't think I've
really looked at it since I joined in 2009. Are there any people here
who've joined recently and made use of it?
--
Guy Barry
It is loading more messages.
0 new messages