What is the technical term in Physics

[Boso deniro]

for everything coming apart and disassembling?

[bert]

On Friday, 3 February 2023 at 12:16:26 UTC, Boso deniro wrote:
> What is the technical term in Physics

> for everything coming apart and disassembling?

Disintegration, I suppose.

[Sam Plusnet]

Entropy?

--
Sam Plusnet

[Jerry Friedman]

The Second Coming? (Yeats.)

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter Moylan]

Is that the same as differentiation?

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Bebercito]

Le vendredi 3 février 2023 à 13:16:26 UTC+1, Boso deniro a écrit :
> for everything coming apart and disassembling?

Decohesion?

[Boso deniro]

Yes! Bingo! Thank you!

After I posted it, it finally came to me just like it usually does.

I resort to posting it though just in case it doesn't.

When it finally did come to me, it reminded me of the book title:

"I always forget what "egregious" Means"

If I were to steal the idea and adapt it for a little book on vocabulary, I'd call it:

"The four words I always forget and neither should you: Intrepid, Formidable, Entropy and Inertia" OR

"Four words not to Forget: Intrepid, Formidable, Entropy, Inertia OR

"Never forget these four words: "Intrepid, Formidable, Entropy, and Inertia" OR

Assemble all the titles in quotes above in an omnibus and call it "Redundant".

[Anton Shepelev]

Boso deniro:

> I always forget what "egregious" Means"

I remember that word together with `gregarious'. I first
met with the latter in "Moby Dick," where Melville writes
that whales are not gregarious. `egregious' means an
opposite thing of sorts -- something outside the mob,
outstanding.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

[Anton Shepelev]

Peter Moylan to Boso deniro:

> > Disintegration, I suppose.
>
> Is that the same as differentiation?

Of course, even as a demonstration is riddance of monsters.

[Dingbat]

On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 12:34:16 AM UTC-8, Boso deniro wrote:
> "I always forget what "egregious" Means"
>

Distinguished. Negatively in English. Positively in Italian:
'Egregio Professori' (vocative) means 'Distinguished Professor'.

[Dingbat]

That's when it comes apart spontaneously. A Muslim leader in India,
the late Syed Shahabuddin, once claimed that Somnath temple
disintegrated. He was being disingenuous; it was destroyed by
Mohammed Ghazni, an invading king from Afghanistan.

[Silvano]

Dingbat hat am 07.02.2023 um 06:30 geschrieben:

Actually, the most common use of "egregio" in Italian is in "egregio
signor (surname)" or "egregi signori" at the beginning of a letter, like
"Dear Sir" or "Dear Sirs".
Also, it's either "egregio professore" about one professor or "egregi
professori" about two or more professors.

An interesting difference: Italian "professori" teach at universities,
but also at high schools, German "Professoren" only at universities.
Where do professors in English-speaking countries teach?

[Peter Moylan]

Outside North America, "Professor" is the highest rank in a university
department, and there are no professors in high schools. In any
department you'd find only one professor, or perhaps a small number if
the department has endowed chairs. (Historically, the professor was also
the department head, but that has changed.) The other academics are
associate professors, senior lecturers, and lecturers. The ranks "tutor"
and "senior tutor" also exist, but those are usually non-tenured
positions, typically occupied by PhD students.

Some universities use "reader" rather than "associate professor" for the
second-highest rank.

In North America, "professor" applies to a much larger range of people.

[Boso deniro]

Getting back to entropy, would inertia or expansion of the universe be the opposite be the opposite of entropy?

[J. J. Lodder]

Entropy is a technical term in physics.
It is not about everything coming apart.

Jan

[Peter T. Daniels]

That term always seems demeaning.

> In North America, "professor" applies to a much larger range of people.

"Associate" ones have tenure, "Assistant" ones don't.

At Chicago, a professor can be honored with "Distinguished Service
Professor of ...," but I don't recall any who weren't also the incumbents
of endowed chairs. A chair can be named for a distinguished faculty
member -- e.g. Erica Reiner and then Matt Stolper were the John A.
Wilson Professor of Oriental Studies," and Hans Guterbock was the
Tiffany and Margaret Blake (Distinguished Service) Professor of
Hittitology." (I saw from a recent U of C Magazine that the current
T & M B Prof is in a completely different field).

But in an outpouring of reverse snobbery, Chicago professors are
not addressed as "Professor" or "Doctor" but only as "Mr." or "Ms."
(Well, it was Miss Reiner.) I left long enough ago to not know what
form of address is prescribed for the gender-fluid professoriat.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:25:13 AM UTC-7, Silvano wrote:
...

> An interesting difference: Italian "professori" teach at universities,
> but also at high schools, German "Professoren" only at universities.
> Where do professors in English-speaking countries teach?

In the U.S., professors teach (or maybe get away with doing research
only) at colleges and universities, not high schools.

Typically, the ranks are full professor or maybe just professor,
associate professor, assistant professor, and then others that may
or may not have "professor" in the title, such as adjunct professor.
The first two kinds are typically tenured, that is, those professors
keep their jobs except in extreme circumstances. Assistant
professors are typically "tenure-track", that is, they are hoping for
promotion to associate professor if they publish a lot and somebody
retires at the right moment. They often have to leave if they don't
get tenure within six years or so.

In my experience, undergraduates are barely aware of the
distinctions, if at all. Grad students are likely to know who in their
department has tenure. Members of the general public probably
understand only if they've had considerable contact with academia.
The media may or may not give the full title of the expert they're
quoting, the person who was arrested while trying to get into his
own house, or whatever.

The differences from the Australian system as described by Peter
Moylan seem to be that some of our full professors are among
their associate professors--you don't need an endowed chair--
and that some lower ranks are also called "professor".

--
Jerry Friedman
Assistant Professor, Science Department

[Sam Plusnet]

Entropy leads to:
The degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate
state of inert uniformity.

That certainly says "everything coming apart and disassembling" to the
ultimate degree.

--
Sam Plusnet

[TonyCooper]

On Tue, 7 Feb 2023 08:04:01 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
<jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:25:13 AM UTC-7, Silvano wrote:
>...
>
>> An interesting difference: Italian "professori" teach at universities,
>> but also at high schools, German "Professoren" only at universities.
>> Where do professors in English-speaking countries teach?
>
>In the U.S., professors teach (or maybe get away with doing research
>only) at colleges and universities, not high schools.
>
>Typically, the ranks are full professor or maybe just professor,
>associate professor, assistant professor, and then others that may
>or may not have "professor" in the title, such as adjunct professor.
>The first two kinds are typically tenured, that is, those professors
>keep their jobs except in extreme circumstances. Assistant
>professors are typically "tenure-track", that is, they are hoping for
>promotion to associate professor if they publish a lot and somebody
>retires at the right moment. They often have to leave if they don't
>get tenure within six years or so.

Tenure may be slipping away in Florida universities:

https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/education/2022-05-15/changes-in-tenure-coming-with-new-florida-law

Another move by Gov DeSantis to control education in Florida. He
started with grade schools and high schools removing books:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-south/why-some-florida-schools-are-removing-books-from-their-libraries

Scary!

>
>In my experience, undergraduates are barely aware of the
>distinctions, if at all. Grad students are likely to know who in their
>department has tenure. Members of the general public probably
>understand only if they've had considerable contact with academia.
>The media may or may not give the full title of the expert they're
>quoting, the person who was arrested while trying to get into his
>own house, or whatever.
>
>The differences from the Australian system as described by Peter
>Moylan seem to be that some of our full professors are among
>their associate professors--you don't need an endowed chair--
>and that some lower ranks are also called "professor".
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

[J. J. Lodder]

The entropy of the universe is not a well-defined concept,

Jan

[Dingbat]

On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 2:49:21 AM UTC-8, Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 07/02/23 21:25, Silvano wrote:
> > Where do professors in English-speaking countries teach?
> Outside North America, "Professor" is the highest rank in a university
> department, and there are no professors in high schools. In any
> department you'd find only one professor, or perhaps a small number if
> the department has endowed chairs. (Historically, the professor was also
> the department head, but that has changed.) The other academics are
> associate professors, senior lecturers, and lecturers.
>

In India, when I was a student, the ranks were Demonstrator, Lecturer,
Reader and Professor in Colleges and Universities had an additional rank
of Senior Professor and a possibility of becoming Professor Emeritus.
In Colleges, no position required research. In Universities, positions
above Lecturer required research; Readers and above are both researchers
and teachers. My father started as a University Reader immediately after
a Post-Doc, so researchers didn't start in a teaching position if a research
position was available. Often, such a position was not available and
researchers accepted teaching positions. They were not required to do
research in such a position but never got promoted to a research position
if they didn't. No position was non-tenured; one could remain in any of
those positions till retirement.

>
> The ranks "tutor"
> and "senior tutor" also exist, but those are usually non-tenured
> positions, typically occupied by PhD students.
>

Ah! Students were not appointed to such positions in India, so there
was no salaried position of Tutor. There were private tutors though.
India had an additional graduate degree of MPhil, above a Master's
and below a PhD. It took less time than a PhD and qualified one for
the more senior teaching positions in Colleges and for research
positions in industry. Research positions in Universities required a
PhD.

[Arindam Banerjee]

Academics everwhere are the greatest curse for humanity, as they are a united mob against any genuine novelty. The most esteemed, of all the scums.
Two foul academics from IISc Bangalore blocked the HTN my father was trying to promote at the PM level.
They made spurious comments, and the case was closed.
Amazing, how a couple of scoundrels can negatively affect the lives of billions!
Cheers,
Arindam Banerjee

[Dingbat]

What does HTN mean?

[Peter Moylan]

On 08/02/23 03:04, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> The differences from the Australian system as described by Peter
> Moylan seem to be that some of our full professors are among their
> associate professors--you don't need an endowed chair-- and that some
> lower ranks are also called "professor".

Agreed. One extra comment: I have heard associate professors in the
Australian system as those who would have been a full professor except
that there wasn't a vacancy.

Disclaimer: the highest rank I achieved in the university system was
associate professor, so my remarks can't be considered unbiased.

While still a senior lecturer in Australia, I got what looked like a
promotion (in Australian terms) by being called a visiting professor in
the US and Canada.

[Madhu]

* "Peter T. Daniels" <71a4cc5d-3d56-4412-a221-fb4199175e70n @googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Tue, 7 Feb 2023 07:53:04 -0800 (PST):

> On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:49:21 AM UTC-5, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> Outside North America, "Professor" is the highest rank in a university
>> department, and there are no professors in high schools. In any
>> department you'd find only one professor, or perhaps a small number if
>> the department has endowed chairs. (Historically, the professor was also
>> the department head, but that has changed.) The other academics are
>> associate professors, senior lecturers, and lecturers. The ranks "tutor"
>> and "senior tutor" also exist, but those are usually non-tenured
>> positions, typically occupied by PhD students.
>>
>> Some universities use "reader" rather than "associate professor" for the
>> second-highest rank.
>
> That term always seems demeaning.

Not in the Indian Academic setting, I think. It is usually the first job
after "post-doc" graduation, "reader" but readers were respected in the
instutions I've seen. Though I never made the connection to "Associate
professor" which I encountered in the US setting.

>> In North America, "professor" applies to a much larger range of people.
>
> "Associate" ones have tenure, "Assistant" ones don't.

They also seem to be the first ones to be emerited off when they turn 55
or 56 or whatever. While their former junior collegues (with enough
"pull") continue their careers for another 2-3 decades.

> At Chicago, a professor can be honored with "Distinguished Service
> Professor of ...," but I don't recall any who weren't also the incumbents
> of endowed chairs. A chair can be named for a distinguished faculty
> member -- e.g. Erica Reiner and then Matt Stolper were the John A.
> Wilson Professor of Oriental Studies," and Hans Guterbock was the
> Tiffany and Margaret Blake (Distinguished Service) Professor of
> Hittitology." (I saw from a recent U of C Magazine that the current
> T & M B Prof is in a completely different field).

IME the "distinguished" always refers to the financial success of the
professor in (appropriating public money and making many others at
various levels rich), sort of a reward for services rendered. this title
also seems to the non-pensioned career of the professor well beyond a
normal life-time.

[J. J. Lodder]

But makig a mixture 'come apart and disassemble'
leads to a -decrease- in entropy.
All this loose talk about entropy <=> disorder is best avoided,

Jan

[Hibou]

Le 03/02/2023 à 12:16, Boso deniro a écrit :
>
> for everything coming apart and disassembling?

Brexit?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Hear, hear! All mention of the word "entropy" by people who have not
studied thermodynamics should be completely forbidden, on pain of 135€
for a first offense and up to 12 months imprisonment for repeated
offenses.


--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

[lar3ryca]

Extropy.

--
In India, “cold weather” is merely a phrase to distinguish between weather
which will melt a brass doorknob and weather which only makes it mushy.
–Mark Twain

[Arindam Banerjee]

On Friday, 3 February 2023 at 23:16:26 UTC+11, Boso deniro wrote:
> for everything coming apart and disassembling?

Boom

[Arindam Banerjee]

It is cold in Kolkata now, at some 25 deg C and we find people in balaclavas (monkey caps as they are called here).

[Arindam Banerjee]

Hydrogen Transmission Network
Details at
htnresearch.com
a site maintained by ilya Shambat
and
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7399250

[Arindam Banerjee]

On Wednesday, 8 February 2023 at 21:09:21 UTC+11, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2023-02-08 09:30:41 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
> > Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 07-Feb-23 12:07, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 03-Feb-23 20:54, bert wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, 3 February 2023 at 12:16:26 UTC, Boso deniro wrote:
> >>>>>> What is the technical term in Physics
> >>>>>> for everything coming apart and disassembling?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Disintegration, I suppose.
> >>>>
> >>>> Entropy?

Increase of entropy.

> >>>
> >>> Entropy is a technical term in physics.
> >>> It is not about everything coming apart.

As per Uncle Google:
Entropy is a measure of the disorder of a system. Entropy also describes how much energy is not available to do work. The more disordered a system and higher the entropy, the less of a system's energy is available to do work.

My comment, work is what makes a capitalist/slaveowner/boss/investor/parasites/etc. happy provided it is done by others.
For others, work is prayer - laborare est orare.

> >>
> >> Entropy leads to:
> >> The degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate
> >> state of inert uniformity.

We need not involve the universe in the workings of ancient, simple, crude heat machines.
The notions of entropy are outdated stuff, like the concept of erlang in telecom.

So what is entropy?
In the practical sense, the more efficient the heat engine is, which means, the higher the percentage of heat that it turns to work, the lesser the increase in entropy.
Energy, ultimately, transforms from something tangible to this mathematical notion defined by a formula, that is entropy, a strictly mathematical construction indicative of the efficiency of the heat machine (like a steam engine, or diesel, etc.)

Now if I drop a ball, the potential energy of it becomes purely kinetic before impacting the ground. Then heat energy is created which doing no good purpose to please any overlord, is a waste. So they say, no useful work is done, for no esteemed parasite is happy. But by the law of conservation of energy, energy cannot be created or destroyed. Thus this heat energy becomes entropy - a wasted energy let us say, but energy nevertheless although its existence is merely mathematical, nothing practical. It is not some energy we can use for work. Since all processes ultimately turn to heat, get wasted if no work is created, then the entropy of the universe keeps on increasing and increasing.

The idea of entity is to protect the law of conservation of energy, a canard favoured by the overlord for it is essentially mean and restrictive. As a measure for the efficiency of heat machines, it may serve some purpose but nothing really significant.

So the powers that be will not like the straightforward and visible fact that energy is continually getting created and destroyed in our infinite universe. Too revolutionary, upsets their prejudices and perceived interests.

> >>
> >> That certainly says "everything coming apart and disassembling" to the
> >> ultimate degree.
> >
> > But makig a mixture 'come apart and disassemble'
> > leads to a -decrease- in entropy.
> > All this loose talk about entropy <=> disorder is best avoided,
> Hear, hear! All mention of the word "entropy" by people who have not
> studied thermodynamics should be completely forbidden, on pain of 135€
> for a first offense and up to 12 months imprisonment for repeated
> offenses.

Woof-woof.

[Boso deniro]

I believe this may be a recent niche and stock tout that I heard about invested in by some notable Billionaires — but it could a pump and dump scam too. Anybody know?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 12:28:26 AM UTC-5, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 08/02/23 03:04, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> > The differences from the Australian system as described by Peter
> > Moylan seem to be that some of our full professors are among their
> > associate professors--you don't need an endowed chair-- and that some
> > lower ranks are also called "professor".
> Agreed. One extra comment: I have heard associate professors in the
> Australian system as those who would have been a full professor except
> that there wasn't a vacancy.
>
> Disclaimer: the highest rank I achieved in the university system was
> associate professor, so my remarks can't be considered unbiased.

Presumably mystery novels have been written about persons in your
situation who would stop at nothing to gain the title (and, Pooh-bah-like,
the associated salary) and would have thought themselves so clever
they'd never be detected. Would have made a great *Columbo* episode,
but we don't have that one-per-department condition.

[Dingbat]

On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 12:40:48 AM UTC-8, Madhu wrote:
> * "Peter T. Daniels" <71a4cc5d-3d56-4412-a221-fb4199175e70n @googlegroups.com> :
> Wrote on Tue, 7 Feb 2023 07:53:04 -0800 (PST):
> > On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:49:21 AM UTC-5, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> Outside North America, "Professor" is the highest rank in a university
> >> department, and there are no professors in high schools. In any
> >> department you'd find only one professor, or perhaps a small number if
> >> the department has endowed chairs. (Historically, the professor was also
> >> the department head, but that has changed.) The other academics are
> >> associate professors, senior lecturers, and lecturers. The ranks "tutor"
> >> and "senior tutor" also exist, but those are usually non-tenured
> >> positions, typically occupied by PhD students.
> >>
> >> Some universities use "reader" rather than "associate professor" for the
> >> second-highest rank.
> >
> > That term always seems demeaning.
> Not in the Indian Academic setting, I think. It is usually the first job
> after "post-doc" graduation, "reader" but readers were respected in the

> institutions I've seen. Though I never made the connection to "Associate

> professor" which I encountered in the US setting.
>

To compare with PM's description of the Australian setting, India's
Reader is equivalent to their Assistant Professor, India's Professor is
equivalent to their Associate Professor and India's Senior Professor
is equivalent to their Professor. In India, Reader is the lowest ranking
salaried research cum teaching position, not the 2nd highest as in
Australia.

[J. J. Lodder]

And creatiomists should pay double that,
for their abuses are not in good faith,

Jan

[Sam Plusnet]

What about those of us who _did_ study thermodynamics, but haven't had
much occasion to think about it in the last <counts on fingers and toes,
and then gives up> 50-odd years?

--
Sam Plusnet

[Boso deniro]

> What about those of us who _did_ study thermodynamics.

Eureka! I think I got it! Not to beat a dead horse, but if "entropy" can be defined as the infinite phenomena of "increasing" disorganization in the universe,
its "opposite" can only be defined as the original event in the universe, which could only be the original cosmic event in the universe that could accommodate for the "increasing" disorganization in the universe after that original "Breathtaking Cosmic Instance of Expansion" to accommodate the original instance of the universe itself, which would have to be the original big bang itself. Only then could entropy occur.

It's kind of an infinite circle thing, hey man, can you dig it?

It's a hippie-dippie beatnik bhagwan infinite circle thingy.

Not to be irreverent but I "think" that's the way it is ... or was ... and when it reverses will be again.

[Peter Moylan]

On 09/02/23 03:15, Arindam Banerjee wrote:

> We need not involve the universe in the workings of ancient, simple,
> crude heat machines. The notions of entropy are outdated stuff, like
> the concept of erlang in telecom.

Erlang is the name of a unit. (And also the name of a person, of
course.) A unit is not a concept. The underlying concept of "traffic
level" is still important in telephony, whether you measure it in erlang
or in some other unit, because you need to understand it for capacity
planning, for the design of routing algorithms, etc. The queueing theory
that is the basis for Erlang's results is still around, too.

When googling to see whether the unit "erlang" is still in common use, I
came across a web page "Erlang Calculator for Call Centre Staffing". I
hadn't thought of using queueing theory for that application, but it
makes sense. Presumably that's a "very lossy" application, where they
provide enough staff to handle about 10% of the calls.

[Boso deniro]

OOOPS, T-Y-P O ! — Eureka! — I "think" I found it ! Not to beat a dead horse to death, but if "entropy" can be defined as the infinite phenomena of "increasing" DISorganization in the

universe, then its theoretical "opposite" could only be defined as the first events in the novel universe that could only be defined as the "Increasing" ORGanization in the novel

universe, which after a brief initial big bang expansion and the first concentration of elements of the periodic table would comprise Hydrogen, Helium, and Berylium followed soon

then soon after by the rest of the periodic table. After the complete organization of the so-called periodic table, only then can the first signs of DISorganization and entropy commnece.

Once this process of DISorganization, entropy and decay occurs, it's GAME OVER or GAME ON depending on your definition and perspective of expansion and compression until such

"time" it reverses. Which may be going on and off all the time simultaneously. Which only makes sense. And that will look like ORGANIZATION or DISORGANIZATION depending on your position

and longevity in the universe. Furthermore, any mention of the study of thermodynamics will not be tolerated upon pain of death — is that understood?

[Jerry Friedman]

On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 10:46:34 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 12:28:26 AM UTC-5, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 08/02/23 03:04, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >
> > > The differences from the Australian system as described by Peter
> > > Moylan seem to be that some of our full professors are among their
> > > associate professors--you don't need an endowed chair-- and that some
> > > lower ranks are also called "professor".
> > Agreed. One extra comment: I have heard associate professors in the
> > Australian system as those who would have been a full professor except
> > that there wasn't a vacancy.
> >
> > Disclaimer: the highest rank I achieved in the university system was
> > associate professor, so my remarks can't be considered unbiased.
> Presumably mystery novels have been written about persons in your
> situation who would stop at nothing to gain the title (and, Pooh-bah-like,
> the associated salary) and would have thought themselves so clever
> they'd never be detected. Would have made a great *Columbo* episode,
> but we don't have that one-per-department condition.

There are institutions where your chance of getting tenure get much
better if a tenured prof leaves the department, and if nobody's willing to
retire or take a job elsewhere...

I don't know whether that would work for a full professorship, but maybe
it would for an endowed chair.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Madhu]

* Dingbat <b043d47e-aabf-4144-9803-50fa53db2974n @googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Wed, 8 Feb 2023 11:05:15 -0800 (PST):

> To compare with PM's description of the Australian setting, India's
> Reader is equivalent to their Assistant Professor, India's Professor is
> equivalent to their Associate Professor and India's Senior Professor
> is equivalent to their Professor. In India, Reader is the lowest ranking
> salaried research cum teaching position, not the 2nd highest as in
> Australia.

Indian professorship has complicated grading . Look at the distinguished
career of Vivek Shripad Borkar
ww.ee.iitb.ac.in/web/people/vivek-shripad-borkar/

Work Experience

* Visiting Scientist , 1980-81 ,Technische Hogeschool Twente, Holland
* Fellow , 1981-89 , TIFR Centre, Bangalore
* Asst. Professor, 1989-92, IISc Bangalore
* Assoc. Professor, 1992-1999, IISc Bangalore
* Professor ‘G’, 1999-2000 , TIFR Mumbai
* Professor ‘H’, 2001-2006 ,TIFR Mumbai
* Professor ‘I’, 2006-1/2011, TIFR, Mumbai
* Professor ‘J’ , 2/2011-7/2011, TIFR, Mumbai
* Institute Chair Professor, 8/2011- till date, IIT Bombay

(retrieved today - but I believe he's retired)

[Peter Moylan]

I've never seen it go as far as murder, but I have seen pretty savage
attempts to damage someone's reputation by, for example, accusations of
plagiarism. Luckily such cases are rare.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 7:36:40 PM UTC-7, Madhu wrote:
> * Dingbat <b043d47e-aabf-4144-9803-50fa53db2974n @googlegroups.com> :
> Wrote on Wed, 8 Feb 2023 11:05:15 -0800 (PST):
> > To compare with PM's description of the Australian setting, India's
> > Reader is equivalent to their Assistant Professor, India's Professor is
> > equivalent to their Associate Professor and India's Senior Professor
> > is equivalent to their Professor. In India, Reader is the lowest ranking
> > salaried research cum teaching position, not the 2nd highest as in
> > Australia.
> Indian professorship has complicated grading . Look at the distinguished
> career of Vivek Shripad Borkar
> ww.ee.iitb.ac.in/web/people/vivek-shripad-borkar/

[...]

> * Professor ‘J’ , 2/2011-7/2011, TIFR, Mumbai
> * Institute Chair Professor, 8/2011- till date, IIT Bombay
>
> (retrieved today - but I believe he's retired)

Wait, there's a TIFR Mumbai but an IIT Bombay?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Arindam Banerjee]

On Thursday, 9 February 2023 at 10:45:50 UTC+11, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 09/02/23 03:15, Arindam Banerjee wrote:
>
> > We need not involve the universe in the workings of ancient, simple,
> > crude heat machines. The notions of entropy are outdated stuff, like
> > the concept of erlang in telecom.
> Erlang is the name of a unit. (And also the name of a person, of
> course.) A unit is not a concept. The underlying concept of "traffic
> level" is still important in telephony, whether you measure it in erlang
> or in some other unit, because you need to understand it for capacity
> planning, for the design of routing algorithms, etc. The queueing theory
> that is the basis for Erlang's results is still around, too.

How silly. No fool like an academic who teaches to an professional.

>
> When googling to see whether the unit "erlang" is still in common use, I
> came across a web page "Erlang Calculator for Call Centre Staffing". I
> hadn't thought of using queueing theory for that application, but it
> makes sense. Presumably that's a "very lossy" application, where they
> provide enough staff to handle about 10% of the calls.
> --
> Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Idiot

[Arindam Banerjee]

Academics will teach to those needing certification ancient bullshit for decades.

****
Academics have to be bullshitters, for they are professors at the top, and a professor must profess some existing dogma, which is naturally bullshit, being outdated and wrong to various degrees. |Academics are thus the greatest enemy of the creative person, who wants to initiate something newer and better. The adage, the good is the enemy of the better is most appropriate for the academic, assuming the creature is something good to begin with - and that is rare. These parasites cover up their inadequacies with egocentrism, and that may jar the sensitive soul - like that of Tooly here - but one must say, they are highly skilled at politics, so know how to butter-up whom for their funding. The importance given to academics, the tools of capitalists and other bloodsuckers to be trotted out on media for some business or political purpose, thus, boosts the level of bullshit in public life, and works against any creative process that cannot be controlled by their paymasters.
>
> Anyway, one could write volumes on the subject, but memes carry far more 'interpretative' conveyance and are succinct [saving us those volumes]. Offered here is a famous clip of Charlie Chaplin from his 1940's 'the dictator'. I offer as insight into the darker realms of psychic resolve we all carry...but most of us keep 'leashed to a tree' [as the old barking dog might allow]. As our intellects 'swell'...hopefully with just knowledge and understanding, that dog grows...and often can break that leash and go a wandering through the neighborhood. Chaplin, in this memed clip, I think shows that dog 'unleashed' in it's less adorned cause...or as the song goes, 'we all want to rule the world'.

The academic has his own little universe, where he is the undisputed king. All of them unitedly form a network, amounting to a dictatorship of, for and by learned fools, frauds, and plain fools respectively.
***

All universities need to be turned into trade schools, and teacher training schools.

Cheers,
Arindam Banerjee

[Boso deniro]

Yes, I largely agree. But getting back to the simple ontogeny thermodynamics definition of entropy AND its universal phylogeny definition, the following cartoons still apply to BOTH:

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=definition+of+entropy&qpvt=definition+of+entropy&form=EQNASM&first=1

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.app.goo.gl%2FSLjkwXHebWGNRKko7&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce028df1e097844ace83808db0a8f3a05%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638115382486256819%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=cmfEnFRZsU757mwBo%2BytzvRvv53lnjrjCSA7KfL4VCU%3D&reserved=0

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Arindam Banerjee]

So confusion reigns, for frauds to thrive.

[Boso deniro]

I'm no more or less a fraud than you are my friend.

And you can't see the forest for the trees can you?

Or that gains and loses metaphorically and financially are both adiabatic engines themselves.

And that the predictive properties of editing like I'm doing right now with a jumping cursor may be a property of an entropic engine itself?

Unless there is frank fraud there are only the engines of inflation and compression.

I know there's something wrong with my Windows-10 HP platform and it is acting literally more like a search engine than it is a word processing program ....

And I know I'm beginning to sound like Deepak Chopra, a prominent Indian American in the New Age movement whose books and videos have made him one of the best-known and wealthiest figures in alternative medicine. His discussions of quantum healing have been characterised as technobabble – "incoherent babbling strewn with scientific terms" which drives those who actually understand physics "crazy" like you eh Arindam Banerjee, and is "redefining Wrong"

I wasn't always that way but now I do see the macro in the micro and vice versa.

And now I'm NOT so prepared to be argumentative just to be argumentative or contentious just to be contentious.

I try to take my losses both metaphorically and financially as lessons learned and repeat them only if necessary or bury them as happy accidents.

Btw I just decided to repeat what I just lost because that's the defect I'm dealing with on screen — shit just disappears and I have to decide what to do about it. Everything's getting philosophical and I may have to spend some money and get ta new computer to see if it helps or hurts.

I don't know about you but the older I get the more I ask Google how old so and so and somebody is to see if I'm on track, how about you?

I have this touch freeze jumping cursor platform defect and I'm almost afraid to get rid if it as much as it is crippling.

Nice chatting with you Arindam.

— Peter, aka Bozo —

[Sam Plusnet]

Are there ever any repercussions for the individual who launches such an
attack?


--
Sam Plusnet

[Arindam Banerjee]

Really.

>
> And you can't see the forest for the trees can you?

The forest you show is confusion for frauds to thrive. The trees are nonsense.

>
> Or that gains and loses metaphorically and financially are both adiabatic engines themselves.

Gains are notional, immaterial unlike engines that are real and material. That you can buy engines with gains does not convert gains to engines. They are different. Gains have nothing to do with thermodynamics.

>
> And that the predictive properties of editing like I'm doing right now with a jumping cursor may be a property of an entropic engine itself?

It is not a heat engine, whatever you are doing. Entropy is not an engine. It is a confusion.

>
> Unless there is frank fraud there are only the engines of inflation and compression.

Unless one forgets the invention of electric motors working on solar, etc.

>
> I know there's something wrong with my Windows-10 HP platform and it is acting literally more like a search engine than it is a word processing program ....

irrelevant

>
> And I know I'm beginning to sound like Deepak Chopra, a prominent Indian American in the New Age movement whose books and videos have made him one of the best-known and wealthiest figures in alternative medicine. His discussions of quantum healing have been characterised as technobabble – "incoherent babbling strewn with scientific terms" which drives those who actually understand physics "crazy" like you eh Arindam Banerjee, and is "redefining Wrong"

Irrelevant, but then confusion is what you are about. More entropy.

[Madhu]

* Jerry Friedman <b9c631ba-93ac-416b-87b6-3b762212c717n @googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Wed, 8 Feb 2023 20:32:53 -0800 (PST):

>> * Professor ‘J’ , 2/2011-7/2011, TIFR, Mumbai
>> * Institute Chair Professor, 8/2011- till date, IIT Bombay
>>
>> (retrieved today - but I believe he's retired)
>
> Wait, there's a TIFR Mumbai but an IIT Bombay?

Actually I remember it was IIT Powai when I was in Mumbai in the first
half of the first decade. (Powai isi a suburb but TIFR was in south
mumbai, lands end and built on the location of a former British mental
asylum)

The rebranding to IIT Bombay must have happened after then. I think it
is the same with IIT Madras -- where i remember the board or some
authority explicitly rejected the calls to name change. It fits in with
the spirit colonial institutions that are charged with sending the loot
of the colony to their foreign masters.

[Peter Moylan]

I've never followed those cases closely enough to know.

[Dingbat]

Sorry, I was commenting about the ranks in the 60s.
India had no Assistant or Associate Professor
positions at that time. I haven't kept up with the
changes.

[Dingbat]

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 3:37:59 PM UTC-8, Madhu wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman <b9c631ba-93ac-416b-87b6-3b762212c717n @googlegroups.com> :
> Wrote on Wed, 8 Feb 2023 20:32:53 -0800 (PST):
> >> * Professor ‘J’ , 2/2011-7/2011, TIFR, Mumbai
> >> * Institute Chair Professor, 8/2011- till date, IIT Bombay
> >>
> >> (retrieved today - but I believe he's retired)
> >
> > Wait, there's a TIFR Mumbai but an IIT Bombay?
> Actually I remember it was IIT Powai when I was in Mumbai in the first
> half of the first decade. (Powai isi a suburb but TIFR was in south
> mumbai, lands end and built on the location of a former British mental
> asylum)
>

Powai, on line 6 of the Mumbai metro, is now probably considered to be
in Mumbai.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_6_(Mumbai_Metro)
https://mumbaimap360.com/mumbai---bombay-metro-map
>
I knew a builder in further out Thane who called it a suburb of Mumbai.
It's actually an independent city of 2.5 million but perhaps calling it
a suburb of Mumbai helped sell the flats he built. OTOH, it too is on
the Mumbai metro, so perhaps it's a de facto suburb.
>
The Mumbai Metro extends even further out, till Kalyan. Too far to be a
suburb, that has to be an exurb.

>
> The rebranding to IIT Bombay must have happened after then. I think it
> is the same with IIT Madras -- where i remember the board or some
> authority explicitly rejected the calls to name change.
>

IIT Bombay and IIT Madras are their names, not their addresses.
They are in Mumbai and Chennai, respectively. Chennai's University of
Madras, Madras Institute of Technology and Madras Christian College
haven't changed their names either. But, perhaps to keep Tamil
chauvinists from forcing a name change, the name of IIT Madras is
written in the Tamil script as IIT Chennai; it's in the Latin and Devanagari
scripts that it remains IIT Madras. I haven't looked into how U Madras is
written in the Tamil script.

>
> It fits in with the spirit colonial institutions that are charged with
> sending the loot of the colony to their foreign masters.
>

I'm not sure what are the compulsions to retain or change colonial names
when they happen to be coined by the colonial power. But that issue is not
relevant to India if India's major metros' English names were not coined by
the colonial power, i.e., the British. Those names were not coined as British
colonial names but adapted when borrowed into English from other
languages, so India's chauvinists are technically wrong to insinuate that
any desire to retain them must have stemmed from unpatriotic loyalty to
British colonialists. Bombay came from Portuguese Bom baia, Delhi from
Hindi/Hindustani Dilli, Calcutta from Bengali Kalikhetro from Sanskrit
Kalikshetra, Madras from a Portuguese name per one analysis, and
Bangalore from Tamil/Kannada Bangalur/Bengalur. It's gross that Kannada
chauvinists forced a change in English name from Bangalore to Bengaluru
forcing English speakers to use their u suffix in all contexts since Kannada
(and Tamil) speakers use that u suffix only in nominative contexts.
>
Also, not all Indians agree that a change in English name is a name change;
many hold that the change retains an Indian name protecting the name
from changing to the English name in Indian languages too. Only Delhi, of
India's top metros, retains a different name in English; its Hindi name has
long been Dilli. Interestingly, its Malayalam name is Dellhee, not Dellie and
the New in New Delhi, now commonly dropped in other languages, has
never been in its Malayalam name.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 12:04:38 AM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:
> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 3:37:59 PM UTC-8, Madhu wrote:
> > * Jerry Friedman <b9c631ba-93ac-416b-87b6-3b762212c717n @googlegroups.com> :
> > Wrote on Wed, 8 Feb 2023 20:32:53 -0800 (PST):

> > >> * Professor ‘J’ , 2/2011-7/2011, TIFR, Mumbai
> > >> * Institute Chair Professor, 8/2011- till date, IIT Bombay
> > >> (retrieved today - but I believe he's retired)
> > > Wait, there's a TIFR Mumbai but an IIT Bombay?
> > Actually I remember it was IIT Powai when I was in Mumbai in the first
> > half of the first decade. (Powai isi a suburb but TIFR was in south
> > mumbai, lands end and built on the location of a former British mental
> > asylum)
>
> Powai, on line 6 of the Mumbai metro, is now probably considered to be
> in Mumbai.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_6_(Mumbai_Metro)
> https://mumbaimap360.com/mumbai---bombay-metro-map
>
> I knew a builder in further out Thane who called it a suburb of Mumbai.
> It's actually an independent city of 2.5 million but perhaps calling it
> a suburb of Mumbai helped sell the flats he built. OTOH, it too is on
> the Mumbai metro, so perhaps it's a de facto suburb.

That's the American but not the Australian sense of "suburb."

> The Mumbai Metro extends even further out, till Kalyan. Too far to be a
> suburb, that has to be an exurb.

Both New York and Chicago have mass transit rail systems that
include both (mostly) in-town subway/"L" trains & buses _and_
"commuter rail," railroad likes that used to be profit-making
companies that had to be incorporated into government agencies.

[Dingbat]

On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 8:07:12 AM UTC-8, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 12:04:38 AM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:
> > Powai, on line 6 of the Mumbai metro, is now probably considered to be
> > in Mumbai.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_6_(Mumbai_Metro)
> > https://mumbaimap360.com/mumbai---bombay-metro-map
> >
> > I knew a builder in further out Thane who called it a suburb of Mumbai.
> > It's actually an independent city of 2.5 million but perhaps calling it
> > a suburb of Mumbai helped sell the flats he built. OTOH, it too is on
> > the Mumbai metro, so perhaps it's a de facto suburb.
>

Thane has long had heavily used commuter rail to Mumbai too.

>
> That's the American but not the Australian sense of "suburb."
>

What was the streetcar suburb of yore called in their English when
newly built? Melbourne sprouted them too in the same period:
<<While metropolitan Melbourne today has greatly outgrown the reach of the
tram network, the original network and the suburbs that were built around
them are still intact.>>
<http://www.andrewalexanderprice.com/blog20140716-2.php>

>
> Both New York and Chicago have mass transit rail systems that
> include both (mostly) in-town subway/"L" trains & buses _and_
> "commuter rail," railroad likes that used to be profit-making
> companies that had to be incorporated into government agencies.
>

In India:
Commuter rail has always been operated by Indian Railways HQed
in Delhi. Suburban (heavy) rail and Metro (light) rail have always
been operated by cities. None of them has been privately owned
or operated.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:49:50 AM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:
> On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 8:07:12 AM UTC-8, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 12:04:38 AM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:
> > > Powai, on line 6 of the Mumbai metro, is now probably considered to be
> > > in Mumbai.
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_6_(Mumbai_Metro)
> > > https://mumbaimap360.com/mumbai---bombay-metro-map
> > >
> > > I knew a builder in further out Thane who called it a suburb of Mumbai.
> > > It's actually an independent city of 2.5 million but perhaps calling it
> > > a suburb of Mumbai helped sell the flats he built. OTOH, it too is on
> > > the Mumbai metro, so perhaps it's a de facto suburb.
> >
> Thane has long had heavily used commuter rail to Mumbai too.
> >
> > That's the American but not the Australian sense of "suburb."
> >
> What was the streetcar suburb of yore called in their English when
> newly built?

Why would there be a name for them, before sociologists began
studying them? Railroad companies built lines out into vacant
land expecting that people would acquire land and build houses
and use the trains to go to and from their jobs in the city,

They can be called "bedroom communities."

Whether they're "suburbs" in the US depends on whether they're
inside the city's boundaries (then not) or separate municipalities
(those are suburbs). Suburbs can get incorporated into cities
(Columbus, Ohio, and Indianapolis, Indiana, and maybe Phoenix,
Arizona, have become enormous that way), and then the former
suburbs have become neighborhoods in the city.

> Melbourne sprouted them too in the same period:
> <<While metropolitan Melbourne today has greatly outgrown the reach of the
> tram network, the original network and the suburbs that were built around
> them are still intact.>>
> <http://www.andrewalexanderprice.com/blog20140716-2.php>
>
> > Both New York and Chicago have mass transit rail systems that
> > include both (mostly) in-town subway/"L" trains & buses _and_
> > "commuter rail," railroad likes that used to be profit-making
> > companies that had to be incorporated into government agencies.
>
> In India:
> Commuter rail has always been operated by Indian Railways HQed
> in Delhi. Suburban (heavy) rail and Metro (light) rail have always
> been operated by cities. None of them has been privately owned
> or operated.

I've read about the British endeavour to build a n-s railway up the
middle of India. It was an incredible feat of engineering.

[Boso deniro]

On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 7:07:30 AM UTC-8, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Boso deniro:
> > I always forget what "egregious" Means"
> I remember that word together with `gregarious'. I first
> met with the latter in "Moby Dick," where Melville writes
> that whales are not gregarious. `egregious' means an
> opposite thing of sorts -- something outside the mob,
> outstanding.
>
> --
> () ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
> /\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

No, I think "egregious" means "something especially bad."

i.e. an egregious violation, oversight, or crime.

[Boso deniro]

On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 8:12:10 PM UTC-8, Dingbat wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 6:50:28 PM UTC-8, Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 8 February 2023 at 07:18:09 UTC+5:30, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 2:49:21 AM UTC-8, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > > > On 07/02/23 21:25, Silvano wrote:
> > > > > Where do professors in English-speaking countries teach?

> > > > Outside North America, "Professor" is the highest rank in a university
> > > > department, and there are no professors in high schools. In any
> > > > department you'd find only one professor, or perhaps a small number if
> > > > the department has endowed chairs. (Historically, the professor was also
> > > > the department head, but that has changed.) The other academics are
> > > > associate professors, senior lecturers, and lecturers.
> > > >

> > > In India, when I was a student, the ranks were Demonstrator, Lecturer,
> > > Reader and Professor in Colleges and Universities had an additional rank
> > > of Senior Professor and a possibility of becoming Professor Emeritus.
> > > In Colleges, no position required research. In Universities, positions
> > > above Lecturer required research; Readers and above are both researchers
> > > and teachers. My father started as a University Reader immediately after
> > > a Post-Doc, so researchers didn't start in a teaching position if a research
> > > position was available. Often, such a position was not available and
> > > researchers accepted teaching positions. They were not required to do
> > > research in such a position but never got promoted to a research position
> > > if they didn't. No position was non-tenured; one could remain in any of
> > > those positions till retirement.

> > > >
> > > > The ranks "tutor"
> > > > and "senior tutor" also exist, but those are usually non-tenured
> > > > positions, typically occupied by PhD students.
> > > >

> > > Ah! Students were not appointed to such positions in India, so there
> > > was no salaried position of Tutor. There were private tutors though.
> > > India had an additional graduate degree of MPhil, above a Master's
> > > and below a PhD. It took less time than a PhD and qualified one for
> > > the more senior teaching positions in Colleges and for research
> > > positions in industry. Research positions in Universities required a
> > > PhD.

> > > >
> > > > Some universities use "reader" rather than "associate professor" for the
> > > > second-highest rank.
> > > >

> > > > In North America, "professor" applies to a much larger range of people.
> > > > --
> > Academics everwhere are the greatest curse for humanity, as they are a united mob against any genuine novelty. The most esteemed, of all the scums.
> > Two foul academics from IISc Bangalore blocked the HTN my father was trying to promote at the PM level.
> >
> What does HTN mean?
> >
> > They made spurious comments, and the case was closed.
> > Amazing, how a couple of scoundrels can negatively affect the lives of billions!
> > Cheers,
> > Arindam Banerjee

Hydrogen Transportation Network

[Boso deniro]

[Boso deniro]

Or rather "Hydrogen Transmission Network"

[Boso deniro]

On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 4:16:26 AM UTC-8, Boso deniro wrote:
> for everything coming apart and disassembling?

Entropy cartoon URL link: https://images.app.goo.gl/EaHfT2X7KjwfpS2r8

But getting back to "entropy" and its local thermodynamic definition, why is it in practical applications like heating, cooling, and air conditioning do some product advertisers insist on embellishing and calling their products a "heat pump"? Why do they want to insert the word "pump" into the equation?

Is it because you can more easily create and "pump" heated air than you can circulated "cooled" air? If so, just conserve energy and don't bother answering the question.

Thank you.

[Dingbat]

On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:01:16 AM UTC-8, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:49:50 AM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 8:07:12 AM UTC-8, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 12:04:38 AM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:
> > > > Powai, on line 6 of the Mumbai metro, is now probably considered to be
> > > > in Mumbai.
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_6_(Mumbai_Metro)
> > > > https://mumbaimap360.com/mumbai---bombay-metro-map
> > > >
> > > > I knew a builder in further out Thane who called it a suburb of Mumbai.
> > > > It's actually an independent city of 2.5 million but perhaps calling it
> > > > a suburb of Mumbai helped sell the flats he built. OTOH, it too is on
> > > > the Mumbai metro, so perhaps it's a de facto suburb.
> > Thane has long had heavily used commuter rail to Mumbai too.
> > >
> > > That's the American but not the Australian sense of "suburb."
> > >

> > <<While metropolitan Melbourne today has greatly outgrown the reach of the
> > tram network, the original network and the suburbs that were built around
> > them are still intact.>>
> > <http://www.andrewalexanderprice.com/blog20140716-2.php>
>

> > What was the streetcar suburb of yore called in their English when
> > newly built?
> Why would there be a name for them, before sociologists began
> studying them?
>

Once American sociologists called them streetcar suburbs, what did Australian
sociologists call them?

>
> Whether they're "suburbs" in the US depends on whether they're
> inside the city's boundaries (then not) or separate municipalities
> (those are suburbs). Suburbs can get incorporated into cities
> (Columbus, Ohio, and Indianapolis, Indiana, and maybe Phoenix,
> Arizona, have become enormous that way), and then the former
> suburbs have become neighborhoods in the city.
> >

In India, 'suburb' is realtors' marketing term that means whatever
they make it mean; governments use terms peculiar to India, like
'mofussil area' which in urban usage, can describe an
unincorporated rural area with real estate development slowly
urbanizing it.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mofussil

> >
> I've read about the British endeavour to build a n-s railway up the
> middle of India. It was an incredible feat of engineering.
>

The most recent such feat was the Konkan line, although by
the 20th century, there were more machines to build it with:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konkan_Railway

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 10:30:14 -0800 (PST)
Boso deniro <bosod...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:43:27 AM UTC-8, Boso deniro wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 8:12:10 PM UTC-8, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 6:50:28 PM UTC-8, Arindam Banerjee wrote:

[]

> > > > Two foul academics from IISc Bangalore blocked the HTN my father was trying to promote at the PM level.
> > > >
> > > What does HTN mean?
> > > >
> > > > They made spurious comments, and the case was closed.
> > > > Amazing, how a couple of scoundrels can negatively affect the lives of billions!
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Arindam Banerjee
> >
> > Hydrogen Transportation Network
>
> Or rather "Hydrogen Transmission Network"
>

The Thing about Hydrogen is that it's a very small molecule. It will leak.
Also it can explode. Oh and it's very light.


--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Peter T. Daniels]

I've never heard of "streetcar suburb."

[Boso deniro]

> > sociologists call them?

> I've never heard of "streetcar suburb."

How 'bout a streetcar one named "Desire?

[TonyCooper]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 13:55:41 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:


>> Once American sociologists called them streetcar suburbs, what did Australian
>> sociologists call them
>
>I've never heard of "streetcar suburb."
>

I haven't either, but I have heard "streetcar college" used. It was
used to describe a college that is in the city and suggested that the
students took the streetcar from their parent's house to classes.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

[Arindam Banerjee]

That depends upon the engineering. At a given pressure for a given pipe there will be no leaks. Hydrogen cannot leak throgh glass.
The Germans piped hydrogen in the fifities.
The HTN will have lossless steel pipes with a special inner lining for non corrosion and prevention of leakage.
Being distance independent as there will be no transmission loss will solve the storage and transport issues in one stroke, especially in bad climates and for sparse populations.

> Also it can explode. Oh and it's very light.

Gas piping is extensive. I have gas piping to my home. Yes gas can explode like hydrogen. Technology has moved on. The Hindenberg scare is outdated.

[Dingbat]

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb>

[Dingbat]

<<Streetcar suburbs, usually called additions or extensions at the time, were the
forerunner of today's suburbs in the United States and Canada. San Francisco's
Western Addition is one of the best examples of streetcar suburbs before
westward and southward expansion occurred.>>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb>

'Extension' was used in India, eg., Lawley Extension in Bangalore was up and
coming in the 70s.

[TonyCooper]

There were streetcars in Indianapolis when I was growing up there.
They didn't extend to the suburbs, though. I don't recall the term
"suburbs" being used in the 1950s in Indianapolis.

There were housing developments outside of the Indianapolis city
limits, but we just didn't use that term.

When my parents were dating - 1933 to 1937 - they took the Interurban
to some of the surrounding towns for excursions. The Interurbans were
electric conveyances that ran on tracks like a streetcar, but on
separate routes from the city streetcars.

By 1937, most of the Interurban lines were abandoned, though, so their
destination choices became limited.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 8:41:27 PM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:
> On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 5:31:47 PM UTC-8, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 1:55:43 PM UTC-8, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 3:17:53 PM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:

> > > > Once American sociologists called them streetcar suburbs, what did Australian
> > > > sociologists call them
> > > I've never heard of "streetcar suburb."
> >
> <<Streetcar suburbs, usually called additions or extensions at the time, were the

.. suggesting that at some later time they were called "streetcar suburbs."
When and where?

> forerunner of today's suburbs in the United States and Canada. San Francisco's
> Western Addition is one of the best examples of streetcar suburbs before
> westward and southward expansion occurred.>>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb>

No examples of the use of the term outside that very article.

The phenomenon is a ubiquitous one. When the CTA's Orange Line from
the Loop to Midway Airport was announced, and the locations of its stops
were identified, many years before it opened in the 1990s, land speculators
bought up lots and put up commercial structures in anticipation of the new
foot traffic. (The "L" isn't a streetcar.)

Sam thing happened along the NYC subway's Flushing Line in Queens.
Not a streetcar, and not suburbs.

[TonyCooper]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 07:08:40 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 8:41:27 PM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:
>> On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 5:31:47 PM UTC-8, Dingbat wrote:
>> > On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 1:55:43 PM UTC-8, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > > On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 3:17:53 PM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:
>
>> > > > Once American sociologists called them streetcar suburbs, what did Australian
>> > > > sociologists call them
>> > > I've never heard of "streetcar suburb."
>> >
>> <<Streetcar suburbs, usually called additions or extensions at the time, were the
>
>.. suggesting that at some later time they were called "streetcar suburbs."
>When and where?
>
>> forerunner of today's suburbs in the United States and Canada. San Francisco's
>> Western Addition is one of the best examples of streetcar suburbs before
>> westward and southward expansion occurred.>>
>> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb>
>
>No examples of the use of the term outside that very article.

He must be assuming that you have the capability of searching for some
examples on your own. Obviously, he's not familiar with your
inability and/or unwillingness to do so.

You might have found:

https://www.amazon.com/Streetcar-Suburbs-Process-Growth-1870-1900/dp/1013621247/ref=pd_lpo_1?pd_rd_w=oJBfE&content-id=amzn1.sym.116f529c-aa4d-4763-b2b6-4d614ec7dc00&pf_rd_p=116f529c-aa4d-4763-b2b6-4d614ec7dc00&pf_rd_r=JH92QJ69T45ZAY4D82A9&pd_rd_wg=dcVHG&pd_rd_r=1dde265b-05cd-411f-be7f-f22fc593038c&pd_rd_i=1013621247&psc=1

(a paperback book published in 2021 titled "Streetcar Suburbs")

Or this:
https://www.livingplaces.com/Streetcar_Suburbs.html

that lists 151 "streetcar suburbs".

I've never understood why you take the time to read a post and respond
to a post (in this case, with a paragraph on the unrelated subject of
the Chicago "L" and stating that it is not a streetcar) but don't make
any effort to find out about what you are aggressively finding fault
with.

[Madhu]

* Dingbat <253fc032-e14b-4407-887d-93929e318c6en @googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Fri, 10 Feb 2023 08:49:48 -0800 (PST):

> Commuter rail has always been operated by Indian Railways HQed
> in Delhi. Suburban (heavy) rail and Metro (light) rail have always
> been operated by cities. None of them has been privately owned
> or operated.

I believe the metros of the world (like the national highways of India
which operate for profit long after construction costs have been
recovered) are ultimately owned by international financier
organizations, which finance them and have a stake in the (digitalized)
revenues (RFID tags etc.) ---

The Chennai MetroRail has been in talks to move the assets from Southern
Railway to the "Metro" organization which has come up on a highrise
property. The cities only nominally own these as they function on a debt
model to the international financier organizations.

[Janet]

In article <m3a61j1...@leonis4.robolove.meer.net>,
eno...@meer.net says...

>
> * Dingbat <253fc032-e14b-4407-887d-93929e318c6en @googlegroups.com> :
> Wrote on Fri, 10 Feb 2023 08:49:48 -0800 (PST):
>
> > Commuter rail has always been operated by Indian Railways HQed
> > in Delhi. Suburban (heavy) rail and Metro (light) rail have always
> > been operated by cities. None of them has been privately owned
> > or operated.
>
> I believe the metros of the world (like the national highways of India
> which operate for profit long after construction costs have been
> recovered) are ultimately owned by international financier
> organizations, which finance them and have a stake in the (digitalized)
> revenues (RFID tags etc.) ---

Not all.

The Glasgow metro was originally the Glasgow District
Subway Company,built for and owned by a conglomerate of
Glasgow business men in 1886. When the company ran into
financial difficulties the subway was taken over by
Glasgow Corporation, and is now run by Strathclyde
Partnership for Transport, the largest of Scotland's seven
regional transport partnerships. IOW it's funded and run
by Scottish Govt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Subway

Similarly, the London Underground was govt owned,
though its now additionally funded by a PPP
Public/Private Partnership

Janet

[Peter T. Daniels]

No normal person would imagine that the paragraph is unrelated.

Considering that the very first one ever created was Riverside, Illinois
(1868).

> but don't make
> any effort to find out about what you are aggressively finding fault
> with.

And when you looked at the book, did you find that the author documented
uses of the term, or that the author invented the term because there did not
exist a term for what they wanted to talk about?

That's why your "research," or what you present as such, is not research.

[TonyCooper]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 07:29:40 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Do you ever read what you are about to post before you send?

You have stated that the very first streetcar suburb was Riverside IL.

You have questioned if the author of the 2021 book "Streetcar Suburbs"
invented the term.

If the author invented the term in 2021, how could Riverside be a
"streetcar suburb" in 1868?

You have denied that your paragraph was unrelated to the topic, but
the paragraph did not mention any streetcar line or any suburb.

The entirity of your paragraph: "The phenomenon is a ubiquitous one.

When the CTA's Orange Line from the Loop to Midway Airport was
announced, and the locations of its stops were identified, many years
before it opened in the 1990s, land speculators bought up lots and put
up commercial structures in anticipation of the new
foot traffic. (The "L" isn't a streetcar.)"

[Arindam Banerjee]

On Saturday, 11 February 2023 at 07:07:46 UTC+11, Boso deniro wrote:
> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 4:16:26 AM UTC-8, Boso deniro wrote:
> > for everything coming apart and disassembling?
> Entropy cartoon URL link: https://images.app.goo.gl/EaHfT2X7KjwfpS2r8
>
> But getting back to "entropy" and its local thermodynamic definition, why is it in practical applications like heating, cooling, and air conditioning do some product advertisers insist on embellishing and calling their products a "heat pump"? Why do they want to insert the word "pump" into the equation?

Normal heat engines (such as in cars on fossil fuels) convert heat to motion. An early use was cannon, converting heat to motion of cannonball.
Climate control systems do not convert heat into motion that way, as such systems do not move! Heat does cause motion, and that motion is used in pumping action (in the compressor) to get rid of heat, chuck it out.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 12:47:29 AM UTC-5, Madhu wrote:
> * Dingbat <253fc032-e14b-4407-887d-93929e318c6en @googlegroups.com> :
> Wrote on Fri, 10 Feb 2023 08:49:48 -0800 (PST):
> > Commuter rail has always been operated by Indian Railways HQed
> > in Delhi. Suburban (heavy) rail and Metro (light) rail have always
> > been operated by cities. None of them has been privately owned
> > or operated.
>
> I believe the metros of the world (like the national highways of India
> which operate for profit long after construction costs have been
> recovered) are ultimately owned by international financier
> organizations, which finance them and have a stake in the (digitalized)
> revenues (RFID tags etc.) ---

The New York City subways were originally built by two rail companies,
Interborough Rapid Transit and Brooklyn Rapid Transit (which after a
horrible disaster in the 1910s changed its name to Brooklyn-Manhattan
Transit). The IRT and BMT remained in competition for decades. In the
1930s, the mayor, for political reasons used FDR Depression money to
build the Independent system. The fare for all three was stuck at 5c by
their charters. The two companies eventually failed and the facilities
and operations were taken over by the city, and merged in 1948

Meanwhile, commuter trains from the north and east were being run
by (divisions of) railroads that eventually merged into Conrail (Consolidated
Rail) and Long Island Rail Road respectively. They too could not manage,
and the State of New York eventually set up the Metropolitan Transit
Authority, which owns both subways and commuter trains. No rail company
would be foolish enough to go back to passenger trains; their money is
solely in freight. (So much so that freight has priority on any tracks that
are shared by a railroad and the national passenger rail system, Amtrak,
a Federal corporation. The only profitable part of Amtrak is the "Northeast
Corridor," trains between Boston and Washington, DC.

So no, no "ultimately owned by international financier organizations."
The same in Chicago, etc.

[Peter T. Daniels]

IT WASN'T, CALLED THAT MORON.

ONLY A TOTAL AND UTTER MORON COULD IMAGINE THAT IT WAS
CALLED THAT

> You have denied that your paragraph was unrelated to the topic, but
> the paragraph did not mention any streetcar line or any suburb.
>
> The entirity of your paragraph: "The phenomenon is a ubiquitous one.
> When the CTA's Orange Line from the Loop to Midway Airport was
> announced, and the locations of its stops were identified, many years
> before it opened in the 1990s, land speculators bought up lots and put
> up commercial structures in anticipation of the new
> foot traffic. (The "L" isn't a streetcar.)"

Every day you reveal more and more how incredibly stupid you are.

Chicago's Orange Line is EXACTLY the same situation as the subway
lines into Queens. Not outside the city (so not suburbs) and not streetcars.
Yet the same phenomenon as the neologism "streetcar suburb" was
invented for

But you are too utterly stupid to have understood a single word of that
book you never looked at.

How many pages does it devote to Riverside? How many to the
communities that grew up along the various rail lines that extended
into Brooklyn and Queens -- and beyond Queens?

[TonyCooper]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:20:14 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Then what did you mean when you wrote that Riverside was the very
first one? At some time it must have been called that for it to be
known as the first one.

Not that it is known as the first one. You have said it is, but
that's just you flapping your keyboard.

Riverside was the first "planned suburb", but who says that Olmsted
and Vaux's planned community was the first "streetcar suburb"?

>

>> You have denied that your paragraph was unrelated to the topic, but
>> the paragraph did not mention any streetcar line or any suburb.
>>
>> The entirity of your paragraph: "The phenomenon is a ubiquitous one.
>> When the CTA's Orange Line from the Loop to Midway Airport was
>> announced, and the locations of its stops were identified, many years
>> before it opened in the 1990s, land speculators bought up lots and put
>> up commercial structures in anticipation of the new
>> foot traffic. (The "L" isn't a streetcar.)"
>
>Every day you reveal more and more how incredibly stupid you are.
>
>Chicago's Orange Line is EXACTLY the same situation as the subway
>lines into Queens. Not outside the city (so not suburbs) and not streetcars.
>Yet the same phenomenon as the neologism "streetcar suburb" was
>invented for

I have no idea why you think that relates to the term "streetcar
suburbs".

The term "streetcar suburb" was a neologism at some point in time, but
where is the neologism in that word salad about Chicago's Orange Line
and the subway into Queens?

You took up the cudgel over the existance of the term "streetcar
suburb" and then pulled the Orange Line/Queens comparison out of your
ass and somehow think it's a related contribution to the thread.

It's totally baffling why you did so. Streecars were running out to
Chicago's western suburbs in the late 1800s by the Chicago & Western
Railways. How land speculators were buying property in the 1980s in
anticipation of the Orange Line has fuck-all to do with the topic.

>
>But you are too utterly stupid to have understood a single word of that
>book you never looked at.

!

>
>How many pages does it devote to Riverside? How many to the
>communities that grew up along the various rail lines that extended
>into Brooklyn and Queens -- and beyond Queens?

You introduced Riverside to the thread, not me. The book was cited as
a use of the term "streetcar suburbs". Whether or not Riverside is
mentioned in the book has nothing to do with this.

[Peter T. Daniels]

You utter moron, I used the term introduced by Ranjit. Its meaning
is completely transparent, because it is an ordinary noun phrase
comprising an adjective and a noun.

> Not that it is known as the first one. You have said it is, but
> that's just you flapping your keyboard.

You fucking moron, it is enormously well known in the history
of architecture and city planning. Did you bother to "research" it?

> Riverside was the first "planned suburb", but who says that Olmsted
> and Vaux's planned community was the first "streetcar suburb"?

Anyone who learned the phrase from Ranjit's message, you
utter moron.

> >> You have denied that your paragraph was unrelated to the topic, but
> >> the paragraph did not mention any streetcar line or any suburb.
> >> The entirity of your paragraph: "The phenomenon is a ubiquitous one.
> >> When the CTA's Orange Line from the Loop to Midway Airport was
> >> announced, and the locations of its stops were identified, many years
> >> before it opened in the 1990s, land speculators bought up lots and put
> >> up commercial structures in anticipation of the new
> >> foot traffic. (The "L" isn't a streetcar.)"
> >Every day you reveal more and more how incredibly stupid you are.
> >Chicago's Orange Line is EXACTLY the same situation as the subway
> >lines into Queens. Not outside the city (so not suburbs) and not streetcars.
> >Yet the same phenomenon as the neologism "streetcar suburb" was
> >invented for
>
> I have no idea why you think that relates to the term "streetcar
> suburbs".

Because you are a fucking idiot.

> The term "streetcar suburb" was a neologism at some point in time, but
> where is the neologism in that word salad about Chicago's Orange Line
> and the subway into Queens?
>
> You took up the cudgel over the existance of the term "streetcar
> suburb" and then pulled the Orange Line/Queens comparison out of your
> ass and somehow think it's a related contribution to the thread.
>
> It's totally baffling why you did so. Streecars were running out to
> Chicago's western suburbs in the late 1800s by the Chicago & Western
> Railways. How land speculators were buying property in the 1980s in
> anticipation of the Orange Line has fuck-all to do with the topic.

You fucking idiotic moron, there have been no streetcars in Chicago
for many decades. As it happens, one interurban has been incorporated
into the "L" system.

The neologism (you learned a word somewhere!) is a useful one --
to people who are not so illiterate as to imagine that it cannot
apply to communities that are not in suburbs that were built along
rail lines that happen not to be streetcars.

> >But you are too utterly stupid to have understood a single word of that
> >book you never looked at.
>
> !
>
> >How many pages does it devote to Riverside? How many to the
> >communities that grew up along the various rail lines that extended
> >into Brooklyn and Queens -- and beyond Queens?
>
> You introduced Riverside to the thread, not me. The book was cited as
> a use of the term "streetcar suburbs". Whether or not Riverside is
> mentioned in the book has nothing to do with this.

It would be a pretty lousy book about streetcar suburbs, especially
if the author invented the term to refer to what they were studying,
if it omitted the very first and most influential one.

Congratulations. You've achieved Einstein's definition of insanity:
you've typed exactly the same nonsense again, expecting a
different result.

[TonyCooper]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 13:15:02 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

(Snipping a bunch of bluster)

>> >> (TC)Do you ever read what you are about to post before you send?

>> >> (TC) You have stated that the very first streetcar suburb was Riverside IL.

>> >> You have questioned if the author of the 2021 book "Streetcar Suburbs"
>> >> invented the term.
>> >> If the author invented the term in 2021, how could Riverside be a
>> >> "streetcar suburb" in 1868?

>> >(PTD) IT WASN'T, CALLED THAT MORON.

>> >ONLY A TOTAL AND UTTER MORON COULD IMAGINE THAT IT WAS
>> >CALLED THAT
>>

>> (TC) Then what did you mean when you wrote that Riverside was the very

>> first one? At some time it must have been called that for it to be
>> known as the first one.
>

>(PTD) You utter moron, I used the term introduced by Ranjit. Its meaning

>is completely transparent, because it is an ordinary noun phrase
>comprising an adjective and a noun.
>

>> (TC) Not that it is known as the first one. You have said it is, but

>> that's just you flapping your keyboard.
>

>(PTD) You fucking moron, it is enormously well known in the history

>of architecture and city planning. Did you bother to "research" it?

It? What is accepted is that Riverside IL was the first planned
community. The subject here is "streetcar suburb", and it is not
known that Riverside was the first streetcar suburb.

"It" is understood as a reference to the relevant word/term last used,
and that was "streetcar suburb". An alleged editor-for-hire should
know that.

>> (TC)Riverside was the first "planned suburb", but who says that Olmsted

>> and Vaux's planned community was the first "streetcar suburb"?
>

>(PTD)Anyone who learned the phrase from Ranjit's message, you
>utter moron.

What he said was "Once American sociologists called them streetcar
suburbs". He didn't refer to Riverside IL.

In a subsequent post he linked to the Wikipedia article at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb where Riverside IL is
identified as arguably one of the first planned communities but not
identified as the first streetcar suburb.

What that article says is that the honor goes to Richmond, Virginia:
"The introduction of the electrical streetcar in Richmond, Virginia,
in 1887 by Frank J. Sprague marked the start of a new era of
transportation-influenced suburbanization through the birth of the
"streetcar suburb"."

I'll ignore (with a sense of wonder) that you are using Dingbat/Ranjit
as your source of American vocabulary usage.

(Snipping more blustering)

>> >(PTD) How many pages does it devote to Riverside? How many to the

>> >communities that grew up along the various rail lines that extended
>> >into Brooklyn and Queens -- and beyond Queens?
>>

>> (TC)You introduced Riverside to the thread, not me. The book was cited as

>> a use of the term "streetcar suburbs". Whether or not Riverside is
>> mentioned in the book has nothing to do with this.
>

>(PTD) It would be a pretty lousy book about streetcar suburbs, especially

>if the author invented the term to refer to what they were studying,
>if it omitted the very first and most influential one.

Says who where?

Your first reaction to "streetcar suburb" was "I've never heard of
'streetcar suburb'" Now you're claiming to know which was the very
first and most influential.

[Jerry Friedman]

A heat pump moves heat backwards, from the cold side to the hot side.
I'd expect a commercial heat pump to mount in the wall and be able to
move heat either into or out of the building, that is, it can be an air
conditioner in summer and a heater in winter. Though it runs on electricity,
it's a more efficient heater than a simple electric heater as long as the
air outside isn't too much colder than the air inside.

A refrigerator is the same thing, but it goes only one way and what you
care about is how much heat it removes from the cold inside, not how
much it provides to the warm room.

Heat pumps and refrigerators are the reverse of heat engines, and in
principle some designs can be run as either.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Ken Blake]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 16:33:23 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
<jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 1:07:46 PM UTC-7, Boso deniro wrote:
>> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 4:16:26 AM UTC-8, Boso deniro wrote:
>> > for everything coming apart and disassembling?
>> Entropy cartoon URL link: https://images.app.goo.gl/EaHfT2X7KjwfpS2r8
>>
>> But getting back to "entropy" and its local thermodynamic definition, why is it in practical applications like heating, cooling, and air conditioning do some product advertisers insist on embellishing and calling their products a "heat pump"? Why do they want to insert the word "pump" into the equation?
>>
>> Is it because you can more easily create and "pump" heated air than you can circulated "cooled" air? If so, just conserve energy and don't bother answering the question.
>>
>> Thank you.
>
>A heat pump moves heat backwards, from the cold side to the hot side.
>I'd expect a commercial heat pump to mount in the wall and be able to
>move heat either into or out of the building, that is, it can be an air
>conditioner in summer and a heater in winter.

That what we have in our house (two of them), that's what they do, and
they work fine.

[Dave S]

On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 4:33:26 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> A heat pump moves heat backwards, from the cold side to the hot side.
> I'd expect a commercial heat pump to mount in the wall

More often mounted outside with either ducting or coolant lines (typical of "mini-splits")
running through the wall.

> and be able to
> move heat either into or out of the building, that is, it can be an air
> conditioner in summer and a heater in winter.

A traditional A/C lacks the reverser valve, so is less useful than a heat pump.

> Though it runs on electricity,
> it's a more efficient heater than a simple electric heater as long as the
> air outside isn't too much colder than the air inside.

Alex at Tech Connections says that Chicago is likely to have 5-10 days a year
where a modern heat pump isn't enough. And that the COE (coefficient of efficiency)
is still well above 1 for almost all the other 355-360.

/dps "consider also 'brown'"

[Jerry Friedman]

On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 1:50:45 AM UTC-7, Dave S wrote:
> On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 4:33:26 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> > A heat pump moves heat backwards, from the cold side to the hot side.
> > I'd expect a commercial heat pump to mount in the wall

> More often mounted outside with either ducting or coolant lines (typical of "mini-splits")
> running through the wall.

Thanks.

> > and be able to
> > move heat either into or out of the building, that is, it can be an air
> > conditioner in summer and a heater in winter.

> A traditional A/C lacks the reverser valve, so is less useful than a heat pump.

Indeed.

> > Though it runs on electricity,
> > it's a more efficient heater than a simple electric heater as long as the
> > air outside isn't too much colder than the air inside.

> Alex at Tech Connections says that Chicago is likely to have 5-10 days a year
> where a modern heat pump isn't enough. And that the COE (coefficient of efficiency)
> is still well above 1 for almost all the other 355-360.

And sensible Chicagoans will be in Florida during those days anyway.

(The physics textbooks I've used refer to COP, coefficient of performance.)

Since it's not the future yet, I assume every building in Chicago is built
with a furnace or electric heat, so you wouldn't be relying completely on
the heat pump(s) during those days, provided the furnace is supplied with
fuel.

One's choice of whether to include heat pumps in one's HVAC solution
(sorry) will depend on purchase price, reliability, and maintenance cost
as well as the considerations we've mentioned, and I've never looked
into any of this stuff.

> /dps "consider also 'brown'"

In the sense that's out?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Ken Blake]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 00:50:43 -0800 (PST), Dave S
<snide...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 4:33:26 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> A heat pump moves heat backwards, from the cold side to the hot side.
>> I'd expect a commercial heat pump to mount in the wall
>
>More often mounted outside with either ducting or coolant lines (typical of "mini-splits")
>running through the wall.

Mine are mounted in closets in the house with a fan unit outdoors.

[Dave S]

On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 10:29:22 AM UTC-8, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 00:50:43 -0800 (PST), Dave S
> <snide...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 4:33:26 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >
> >> A heat pump moves heat backwards, from the cold side to the hot side.
> >> I'd expect a commercial heat pump to mount in the wall
> >
> >More often mounted outside with either ducting or coolant lines (typical of "mini-splits")
> >running through the wall.
> Mine are mounted in closets in the house with a fan unit outdoors.

Really? The pump motor is in the closet, and not outside with the heat exchanger?
I would think that would make the house noisier than it needs to be,
even though window-mount air conditioners are worse,
and I haven't seen examples of closet installation either on-line or in person.
Also, it would be an extra place where you need to work during installation and maintenance.

/dps

[Ken Blake]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 10:54:46 -0800 (PST), Dave S

<snide...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 10:29:22 AM UTC-8, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 00:50:43 -0800 (PST), Dave S
>> <snide...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 4:33:26 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> >
>> >> A heat pump moves heat backwards, from the cold side to the hot side.
>> >> I'd expect a commercial heat pump to mount in the wall
>> >
>> >More often mounted outside with either ducting or coolant lines (typical of "mini-splits")
>> >running through the wall.
>> Mine are mounted in closets in the house with a fan unit outdoors.
>
>Really? The pump motor is in the closet, and not outside with the heat exchanger?

If I correctly understand what each unit does, yes, that's correct.

>I would think that would make the house noisier than it needs to be,

It's actually very quiet, much quieter than the old furnaces they
replaced.

>even though window-mount air conditioners are worse,
>and I haven't seen examples of closet installation either on-line or in person.
>Also, it would be an extra place where you need to work during installation and maintenance.

They are in the same closets that were used for the original furnaces
when the house was built.

[TonyCooper]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 10:54:46 -0800 (PST), Dave S

<snide...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 10:29:22 AM UTC-8, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 00:50:43 -0800 (PST), Dave S
>> <snide...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 4:33:26 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> >
>> >> A heat pump moves heat backwards, from the cold side to the hot side.
>> >> I'd expect a commercial heat pump to mount in the wall
>> >
>> >More often mounted outside with either ducting or coolant lines (typical of "mini-splits")
>> >running through the wall.
>> Mine are mounted in closets in the house with a fan unit outdoors.
>
>Really? The pump motor is in the closet, and not outside with the heat exchanger?
>I would think that would make the house noisier than it needs to be,
>even though window-mount air conditioners are worse,
>and I haven't seen examples of closet installation either on-line or in person.
>Also, it would be an extra place where you need to work during installation and maintenance.
>
>/dps

Just about every house built in Florida in the last few decades has
central heat and air. Both are usually supplied by a heat pump
combination.

In my former 2-story house, the evaporator units were in purpose-built
closets; one upstairs and one downstairs. Those units contained the
evaporator coils and the fans that blew the hot or cold air through
the ducts.

Outside, sitting on a concrete slab, were two condenser units which
also included fans and refrigerant-containing evaporator coils.

That's typical for any house of comparable size in Florida. A smaller
house would have just one inside unit and one outside unit.

The "closets" are purpose-built to accommodate the units and nothing
else. The only time they are accessed is to change the filters and
for needed repairs or to add something to the drain lines (where the
condensation water drains to the outside).

Remember, it's extremely rare for a Florida house to have a basement,
so the units have to be on the living-area level(s).

Some older houses, built before heat pump units were common, have
electric baseboard heating.

I've never heard of a householder complaining about the noise of the
indoor units unless there's something wrong with the unit. The units
are lined with sound-deadening material. There is a sound when the
unit kicks on, but it's the sound of air through the ductwork.

[Dave S]

On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 7:34:55 AM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 1:50:45 AM UTC-7, Dave S wrote:

> > Alex at Tech Connections says that Chicago is likely to have 5-10 days a year
> > where a modern heat pump isn't enough. And that the COE (coefficient of efficiency)
> > is still well above 1 for almost all the other 355-360.
> And sensible Chicagoans will be in Florida during those days anyway.
>
> (The physics textbooks I've used refer to COP, coefficient of performance.)

It wouldn't surprise me to find that my references did, too, but, you know, .... grey cells.

> Since it's not the future yet, I assume every building in Chicago is built
> with a furnace or electric heat, so you wouldn't be relying completely on
> the heat pump(s) during those days, provided the furnace is supplied with
> fuel.

And even if you only had a space heater, you wouldn't need it beyond those days.

> One's choice of whether to include heat pumps in one's HVAC solution
> (sorry) will depend on purchase price, reliability, and maintenance cost
> as well as the considerations we've mentioned, and I've never looked
> into any of this stuff.

Yes, and apparently some installers of mini-splits are asking humongous markups.

> > /dps "consider also 'brown'"
>
> In the sense that's out?

In the much more obscure sense that the link I've provided elsewhere about RGB
will get you to the channel with Alex's comments on heat pumps.
He is a Chicago (metro) resident, BTW.

/dps

[Dave S]

On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 11:32:06 AM UTC-8, TonyCooper wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 10:54:46 -0800 (PST), Dave Sssss <snide...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 10:29:22 AM UTC-8, Ken Blake wrote:

> >> Mine are mounted in closets in the house with a fan unit outdoors.
> >
> >Really? The pump motor is in the closet, and not outside with the heat exchanger?
> >I would think that would make the house noisier than it needs to be,
> >even though window-mount air conditioners are worse,
> >and I haven't seen examples of closet installation either on-line or in person.
> >Also, it would be an extra place where you need to work during installation and maintenance.
> >

> Just about every house built in Florida in the last few decades has
> central heat and air. Both are usually supplied by a heat pump
> combination.
>
> In my former 2-story house, the evaporator units were in purpose-built
> closets; one upstairs and one downstairs. Those units contained the
> evaporator coils and the fans that blew the hot or cold air through
> the ducts.
>
> Outside, sitting on a concrete slab, were two condenser units which
> also included fans and refrigerant-containing evaporator coils.

So inside you have ordinary fans for the ductwork,
and the pump is outside with the condenser (and more fans).

That seems to be sensible, and compatible with what I'm familiar with.

/dps

[TonyCooper]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 12:09:14 -0800 (PST), Dave S

Well, both have fans that are large whirling blades. The fans on the
inside units blow air to move the heat/cold though the ductwork and
the fans on the outside units blow air over the condensing coil and
exhausts heat into the outdoor air.

The fan blades are integrated into the units. They are not separate.

On the subject of noise...what we do hear quite a bit is a loud
"chunk" when an anole (small, lizard-like, creature) gets into the
unit and is torn apart by the blades.

Donald Trump worries quite a bit about windmills killing birds, but
doesn't seem to be concerned about the safety of the anole population.
For those here who are creature lovers, not only is Florida killing
anoles but now there's concern about opossums and raccoons in the
Everglades in south Florida. A number of them were fitted with GPS
collars used to track them for some study.

Those monitoring the survey found that the animal's movement would
stop as if the animal died, and then start moving again in a day or
so.

They found that what had happened was that pythons had eaten the
critter, the movement stopped as the python digested the creature
(pythons stay dormant while digesting large meals), and then started
to move again, but within the python.

Pythons are considered to be an invasive species that are a threat to
native wildlife, so they are hunted and killed. Python hunters are
paid to do so.

Florida is now considering adding GPS harnesses to more opossums and
racoons so they can locate pythons and kill them.

So far, PETA has not taken sides.

[Peter Moylan]

That's pretty much what we have, for a one-level house. All the
important stuff is outside the house. The ductwork, and the fans and
switches that direct the air to different parts of the house, are in the
ceiling cavity.

In summer I switch on the air conditioning when the indoor temperature
gets to about 28 degrees, and switch it off when it gets down to about
25. In winter we use it for heating, but only for a few days per year.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Ken Blake]

Same here in southern Arizona.

[TonyCooper]

As far as I know, the ductwork in the houses I've lived in have all
been just conduits for air. The fans and switches are in the units in
the closets.

The air is not directed within the ductwork. It flows freely to all
rooms. If the heat or cool air is not needed in a room, the vent
cover(s) in that room are closed.
>

https://www.hvachowto.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Best-Adjustable-Air-Conditioning-Vent-Cover-Air-Diverter-2019.jpg

The vents are usually in the ceiling.

[Peter Moylan]

OK, that's one solution. Our vents can't be covered. Instead, the house
is divided into four "zones". Four switches on the wall, underneath the
main air conditioning control panel, turn the zones on or off. They
control something in the ceiling that opens or closes the air path to
the zones. Or perhaps they just control the fans in the ceiling - which
are distinct from the powerful fans in the external compressor unit -
that push the air through the ducts.

Once upon a time I was able to crawl through the ceiling cavity to deal
with the rare problems that might require such a trip. We bought this
house after I lost the ability to safely go up there, so I don't know
precisely what's up there, apart from some large-diameter air ducts.