Meaning of Aqualung lyrics?

Gus

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Dec 9, 2013, 6:37:24 PM12/9/13

to

There are some parts I don't quite get, maybe it is because of being
AmE?

"Eyeing idle girls with bad intent" is ambiguous. Someone on Song
Meanings says it refers to the girls, not Aqualung?

"Salvation a la mode" I'm not sure of what that means. That you can
pick and choose your own way to worship?

"Dog-end" OED says the end of a cigarette butt. Why would you call
that a "dog-end"?

Why would he go down to a bog to warm his feet? Aren't bogs cold, muddy
swamps?

I don't get what he means in the last lines, esp. the last two lines:

"And you snatch your rattling last breaths
with deep-sea-diver sounds,
and the flowers bloom like
madness in the spring.

And in the video below, why does he push his finger against his nose?
It looks like he is getting another bump of coke, but I don't think that
is why. Does that gesture have some meaning in the UK?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCMS-NJ7VxU

"Sitting on the park bench --
eyeing little girls with bad intent.
Snot is running down his nose --
greasy fingers smearing shabby clothes.
Aqualung
Drying in the cold sun --
Watching as the frilly panties run.
Aqualung
Feeling like a dead duck --
spitting out pieces of his broken luck.
Whoa, aqualung

Sun streaking cold --
an old man wandering lonely.
Taking time
the only way he knows.
Leg hurting bad,
as he bends to pick a dog-end --
he goes down to the bog
and warms his feet.

Feeling alone --
the army's up the road
salvation a la mode and
a cup of tea.
Aqualung my friend --
don't you start away uneasy
you poor old sod, you see, it's only me.
Do you still remember
The December's foggy freeze --
when the ice that
clings on to your beard was
screaming agony.
And you snatch your rattling last breaths
with deep-sea-diver sounds,
and the flowers bloom like
madness in the spring.

quia...@yahoo.com

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Dec 9, 2013, 7:08:18 PM12/9/13

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On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 18:37:24 -0500, "Gus" <gus.o...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>There are some parts I don't quite get, maybe it is because of being
>AmE?
>
>
>"Eyeing idle girls with bad intent" is ambiguous. Someone on Song
>Meanings says it refers to the girls, not Aqualung?

No, it's unambiguous. Aqualung is eyeing little girls, and with bad
intent. (The quote below shows "little", not "idle".)

>"Salvation a la mode" I'm not sure of what that means. That you can
>pick and choose your own way to worship?

Maybe as in pie a-la-mode - with ice cream on top.

>"Dog-end" OED says the end of a cigarette butt. Why would you call
>that a "dog-end"?

It's an idiom.

>Why would he go down to a bog to warm his feet? Aren't bogs cold, muddy
>swamps?

That he can do so shows how cold he starts out.

>I don't get what he means in the last lines, esp. the last two lines:
>
>"And you snatch your rattling last breaths
>with deep-sea-diver sounds,
>and the flowers bloom like
>madness in the spring.

He's dying, with mucus rattling in his lungs, but the world,
inexplicably, continues blooming without him.

>And in the video below, why does he push his finger against his nose?
>It looks like he is getting another bump of coke, but I don't think that
>is why. Does that gesture have some meaning in the UK?
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCMS-NJ7VxU

I didn't look, and don't know.

Of course, the meaning may not be as I read it, or as specific, but
it's a lyric intended to be evocative, not an essay.

--
John

Mack A. Damia

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Dec 9, 2013, 7:52:31 PM12/9/13

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On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 18:37:24 -0500, "Gus" <gus.o...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>There are some parts I don't quite get, maybe it is because of being
>AmE?
>
>
>"Eyeing idle girls with bad intent" is ambiguous. Someone on Song
>Meanings says it refers to the girls, not Aqualung?

Little girls. I always thought he was a derelict dirty-old-man.

>"Salvation a la mode" I'm not sure of what that means. That you can
>pick and choose your own way to worship?

"The army's up the road" The Salvation Army where a derelict can get
a hot cup of tea in December?

>"Dog-end" OED says the end of a cigarette butt. Why would you call
>that a "dog-end"?

The shape. Look in an ashtray. The butts are bent like a dog's leg.

>Why would he go down to a bog to warm his feet? Aren't bogs cold, muddy
>swamps?

Peat bogs are used for heating. Possibily the only place he can get
warmth in the colder months.

>I don't get what he means in the last lines, esp. the last two lines:
>
>"And you snatch your rattling last breaths
>with deep-sea-diver sounds,
>and the flowers bloom like
>madness in the spring.

He's an old man, and he's dying. There is probably a connection
between Aqualung and the line of the song, "with deep-sea-diver
sounds".

--

Message has been deleted

Gus

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Dec 9, 2013, 8:28:29 PM12/9/13

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"Hactar" <ebenZ...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ap3ina-...@pc.home...
> In article <l85k87$4et$1...@news.albasani.net>, Gus

> <gus.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> There are some parts I don't quite get, maybe it is because of being
>> AmE?
>>
>>
>> "Eyeing idle girls with bad intent" is ambiguous. Someone on Song
>> Meanings says it refers to the girls, not Aqualung?
>

> "Eyeing with bad intents" is the verb, "girls" are the thing that's
> eyed.

The first lyric site said "idle" but that didn't sound right. I'm
pretty sure it is "little girls"

In the next song, "Cross-eyed Mary" there is this: "Laughing in the
playground-gets no kicks from little boys; would rather make it with a
letching grey; Or maybe her gaze is drawn by Aqualung; who watches
through the railings as they play."

>> "Salvation a la mode" I'm not sure of what that means. That you can
>> pick and choose your own way to worship?
>

> Haven't heard "a la mode" used that way, only "a la carte".

D'oh. Got my "a la's" confused. Now that line makes less sense-- with
ice cream? I looked it up knowing only it only as with ice cream, but
it means "fashionable". That makes more sense.

There is an interesting backstory to the song, I had not heard before.
(Aqualung is not a concept album?)
"The original recording runs for 6:34. In an interview with Ian Anderson
in the September 1999 Guitar World, he said:[2]

Aqualung wasn't a concept album, although a lot of people thought so.
The idea came about from a photograph my wife at the time took of a
tramp in London. I had feelings of guilt about the homeless, as well as
fear and insecurity with people like that who seem a little scary. And I
suppose all of that was combined with a slightly romanticized picture of
the person who is homeless but yet a free spirit, who either won't or
can't join in society's prescribed formats.

So from that photograph and those sentiments, I began writing the
words to "Aqualung". I can remember sitting in a hotel room in L.A.,
working out the chord structure for the verses. It's quite a tortured
tangle of chords, but it was meant to really drag you here and there and
then set you down into the more gentle acoustic section of the song.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqualung_%28song%29

Don Phillipson

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Dec 9, 2013, 8:34:37 PM12/9/13

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<quia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:famca95ha148a1ahp...@4ax.com...

>>"Dog-end" OED says the end of a cigarette butt. Why would you call
>>that a "dog-end"?
>
> It's an idiom.

Possibly a back-formation of the WW2 period. When extinguishing a
cigarette to relight it later (which only rankers would do, never officers)
they said they docked or dogged it (cf. the verb dock = shorten, as of
a dog's docked tail or ears.) Soon this evolved to dog-end.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Jerry Friedman

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Dec 9, 2013, 9:15:56 PM12/9/13

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On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:27:54 PM UTC-7, Hactar wrote:
> In article <l85k87$4et$1...@news.albasani.net>, Gus <gus.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> > There are some parts I don't quite get, maybe it is because of being
> > AmE?

...

> > Why would he go down to a bog to warm his feet? Aren't bogs cold, muddy
> > swamps?
>

> IIRC "bog" is UKoGBaNIian for "bathroom". I can only assume those are
> typically kept warmer.
...

I think someplace, maybe a restaurant or pub or some such, will let him
come inside to use the bathroom, so he does that to warm up. Our British
friends will say if there were places like that.

--
Jerry Friedman

Jerry Friedman

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Dec 9, 2013, 9:23:17 PM12/9/13

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On Monday, December 9, 2013 6:28:29 PM UTC-7, Gus wrote:
> "Hactar" <ebenZ...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:ap3ina-...@pc.home...
> > In article <l85k87$4et$1...@news.albasani.net>, Gus
> > <gus.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> There are some parts I don't quite get, maybe it is because of being
> >> AmE?
>
> >> "Eyeing idle girls with bad intent" is ambiguous. Someone on Song
> >> Meanings says it refers to the girls, not Aqualung?

Technically it's ambiguous, but I agree with everyone that he has
bad intent, as shown by the fact that he's focusing on their panties.

> > "Eyeing with bad intents" is the verb, "girls" are the thing that's
> > eyed.
>
> The first lyric site said "idle" but that didn't sound right. I'm
> pretty sure it is "little girls"

Me too.

> In the next song, "Cross-eyed Mary" there is this: "Laughing in the
> playground-gets no kicks from little boys; would rather make it with a
> letching grey; Or maybe her gaze

I'm sure that's "attention".

> is drawn by Aqualung; who watches through the railings as they play."

She may have bad intents too, but I think that's in her song, not
his. And I'm not sure she's one of the "little girls".

--
Jerry Friedman

Gus

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Dec 9, 2013, 10:07:44 PM12/9/13

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"Jerry Friedman" <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45839b7f-b035-413c-8784-

> She may have bad intents too, but I think that's in her song, not
> his. And I'm not sure she's one of the "little girls".
> --
> Jerry Friedman

Do we know the narrator is trustworthy or reliable? Perhaps in the
beginning he thinks the bum is a pedo, but later he calls him "my
friend." Maybe the electric/loud part represents society's view or an
unreliable view of the bum, and the acoustic more of reality or a
sympathetic view of the bum? (Someone else said that on Song Meanings.)
I don't think Cross-Eyed Mary is one of the little girls, the lyrics
don't really make sense that way in the second song after I looked at
them.

Do you think the a la mode is ice cream (dessert/food) or "fashionable".
Maybe the "bum" got something to eat (perhaps ice cream) along with
Salvation?

Robin Hood of Highgate?

I just found this site that has a lot of explanations/interpretations
that seem about right and shed some light.
http://www.cupofwonder.com/aqua2.html#crosseyed

From an interview with Ian in 'Guitar World' magazine, November 1996:
"I was very briefly married at the time, and when we got married,
neither she nor I wanted her to play the role of the faithful housewife,
but thought she should study something or do something. She'd had an
uncle who was a professional, fairly well-known portrait photographer in
London, and she decided she wanted to take up and study photography. So
she went off to college to do that. One of the first assignments she had
was to record images of homeless people - living in cardboard boxes in a
certain part of London. And she came back with some photographs that
she'd taken and developed. I think she had scribbled a few lines on the
back of one of the prints, or on an accompanying piece of paper, with
lines describing this guy. I hadn't seen the person; I had only seen the
photograph. In trying to encompass something that was just a
black-and-white image - just a grainy, Kodak Tri-X student photographer
image - there was a certain degree of detachment that led me to
romanticize the character, and add to her few words. It just developed
into a song - the first verse, 'Sun streaking cold, an old man wondering
lonely," blah blah blah, is the bit that I think was my first wife's
contribution. But the introductory heavy-riff bit almost certainly is a
musical idea of mine with a lyric that ties in. Start looking a little
bit, a little bit deeper, and I think the nice thing about writing is to
be able to write on more than one level at once, you know, to write
songs that have an apparently simple and direct meaning but, but, you
know, have another layer of meaning underneath that that people may or
may not gravitate to if they wish".

"'Cross-Eyed Mary' is a song about another form of low life, but more
humorous. It's about a schoolgirl prostitute but not in such coarse
terms. She goes with dirty old men because she's doing them a favour,
giving people what they want because it makes them happy. It's a fun
kind of song."
--Ian Anderson in Disc and Music Echo, 20th March 1971.

Richard Yates

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Dec 9, 2013, 10:39:21 PM12/9/13

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On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 18:37:24 -0500, "Gus" <gus.o...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>There are some parts I don't quite get, maybe it is because of being
>AmE?

Ian Anderson was from Scotland and grew up in England, so don't blame
us Yanks.

Peter T. Daniels

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Dec 9, 2013, 10:40:21 PM12/9/13

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On Monday, December 9, 2013 8:34:37 PM UTC-5, Don Phillipson wrote:
> <quia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:famca95ha148a1ahp...@4ax.com...

> >>"Dog-end" OED says the end of a cigarette butt. Why would you call
> >>that a "dog-end"?
>
> > It's an idiom.
>
> Possibly a back-formation of the WW2 period. When extinguishing a
> cigarette to relight it later (which only rankers would do, never officers)
> they said they docked or dogged it (cf. the verb dock = shorten, as of
> a dog's docked tail or ears.) Soon this evolved to dog-end.

Euphemism for "fag-end"? Perhaps to make it saleable/radio-playable
in the US?

Jerry Friedman

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Dec 10, 2013, 12:28:34 AM12/10/13

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On 12/9/13 8:07 PM, Gus wrote:
> "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:45839b7f-b035-413c-8784-
>> She may have bad intents too, but I think that's in her song, not
>> his. And I'm not sure she's one of the "little girls".
>> --
>> Jerry Friedman
>
>
> Do we know the narrator is trustworthy or reliable? Perhaps in the
> beginning he thinks the bum is a pedo, but later he calls him "my
> friend."

I think that was a period in history when people--men, anyway--could
sympathize with a man who had pedophilic feelings if he didn't do any
actual harm to children.

I'm reminded of a man some years older than Ian Anderson who told me
that the headmaster of a school he went to was fair--he liked the boys
who wouldn't just as much as the boys who would--and who when looking at
girls of thirteen or so in party dresses said that he guessed he was
like Maurice Chevalier. I think he was talking about sexual feelings,
but I feel sure he wouldn't have acted on them.

> Maybe the electric/loud part represents society's view or an
> unreliable view of the bum, and the acoustic more of reality or a
> sympathetic view of the bum? (Someone else said that on Song Meanings.)

Certainly more sympathetic. I don't know about less conventional or
more real.

> I don't think Cross-Eyed Mary is one of the little girls, the lyrics
> don't really make sense that way in the second song after I looked at them.
>
> Do you think the a la mode is ice cream (dessert/food) or "fashionable".
> Maybe the "bum" got something to eat (perhaps ice cream) along with
> Salvation?

Possibly a hint of pie in the sky? He's getting Salvation in the mode
(of the Salvation Army) /instead/ of the pie he needs? Or maybe it just
rhymed and fit the tune.

Next: the shuffling madness of the locomotive breath.

[snip interesting interview]

--
Jerry Friedman

Derek Turner

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Dec 10, 2013, 4:27:39 AM12/10/13

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On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 18:37:24 -0500, Gus wrote:

> Why would he go down to a bog to warm his feet? Aren't bogs cold, muddy
> swamps?

In the UK 'the bog' (note: not 'a bog') is a public convenience. In many
UK towns and cities these are underground, beneath the pavement
(sidewalk). To 'go down to the bog' is to descend the steps to the toilet.

<http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01133/opinion-
graphics-2_1133121a.jpg>

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

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Dec 10, 2013, 5:11:35 AM12/10/13

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On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 19:27:54 -0500, ebenZ...@verizon.net (Hactar)
wrote:

>In article <l85k87$4et$1...@news.albasani.net>, Gus <gus.o...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> There are some parts I don't quite get, maybe it is because of being
>> AmE?
>>
>>
>> "Eyeing idle girls with bad intent" is ambiguous. Someone on Song
>> Meanings says it refers to the girls, not Aqualung?
>

>"Eyeing with bad intents" is the verb, "girls" are the thing that's eyed.
>

>> "Salvation a la mode" I'm not sure of what that means. That you can
>> pick and choose your own way to worship?
>

>Haven't heard "a la mode" used that way, only "a la carte".
>

>> "Dog-end" OED says the end of a cigarette butt. Why would you call
>> that a "dog-end"?
>

>Don't know the origin.

>
>> Why would he go down to a bog to warm his feet? Aren't bogs cold, muddy
>> swamps?
>

>IIRC "bog" is UKoGBaNIian for "bathroom". I can only assume those are
>typically kept warmer.
>

A more polite word is "toilet". He starts with the words "Sitting on the
park bench". That means that he is in a public park sitting outdoors.
Public parks in the UK often have public toilets in a small building.

This is an example:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2974450

In cold weather a person would be warmer in such a building than outside
because it provides protection against the weather, in particular
breezes and winds.

>> I don't get what he means in the last lines, esp. the last two lines:
>>
>> "And you snatch your rattling last breaths
>> with deep-sea-diver sounds,
>> and the flowers bloom like
>> madness in the spring.
>>
>> And in the video below, why does he push his finger against his nose?
>> It looks like he is getting another bump of coke, but I don't think that
>> is why. Does that gesture have some meaning in the UK?
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCMS-NJ7VxU
>

>Does that gesture mean "it's a joke"?

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Whiskers

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Dec 10, 2013, 5:54:19 AM12/10/13

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On 2013-12-09, Gus <gus.o...@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

> "Sitting on the park bench --
> eyeing little girls with bad intent.
> Snot is running down his nose --
> greasy fingers smearing shabby clothes.
> Aqualung
> Drying in the cold sun --
> Watching as the frilly panties run.
> Aqualung
> Feeling like a dead duck --
> spitting out pieces of his broken luck.
> Whoa, aqualung

"Aqualung" seems to be the nic-name of the person the song is about.
His lungs are failing. He likes to watch little girls at play, probably
in a lecherous manner.

> Sun streaking cold --
> an old man wandering lonely.
> Taking time
> the only way he knows.
> Leg hurting bad,
> as he bends to pick a dog-end --
> he goes down to the bog
> and warms his feet.

"The bog" is a "convenience" or "little boys' room" or latrine -
probably in this case a "public convenience". If he goes to the part of
the facility where one sits to make use of it, he will have to roll his
trousers down around his feet.

> Feeling alone --
> the army's up the road
> salvation a la mode and
> a cup of tea.
> Aqualung my friend --
> don't you start away uneasy
> you poor old sod, you see, it's only me.
> Do you still remember
> The December's foggy freeze --
> when the ice that
> clings on to your beard was
> screaming agony.
> And you snatch your rattling last breaths
> with deep-sea-diver sounds,
> and the flowers bloom like
> madness in the spring.

The "army up the road" must be The Salvation Army, a Christian
evangelical church noted for its militaristic uniforms, brass bands,
soup kitchens, charity shops, homeless persons' shelters, and being
generally helpful to society's outcasts and needy. Their "Citadels"
often have basic tea-and-hot-food caffs which tolerate scruffy or
impoverished customers. Someone in the caff recognises Aqualung and
reminisces about some previous encounter.

The nautical theme suggests that Aqualung has been to sea, perhaps as a
professional diver, and has endured harsh conditions which may have
contributed to his failing health and poverty.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

CDB

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Dec 10, 2013, 7:09:51 AM12/10/13

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On 09/12/2013 7:08 PM, quia...@yahoo.com wrote:
> "Gus" <gus.o...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> There are some parts I don't quite get, maybe it is because of
>> being AmE?

>> "Eyeing idle girls with bad intent" is ambiguous. Someone on Song
>> Meanings says it refers to the girls, not Aqualung?

> No, it's unambiguous. Aqualung is eyeing little girls, and with bad
> intent. (The quote below shows "little", not "idle".)

>> "Salvation a la mode" I'm not sure of what that means. That you
>> can pick and choose your own way to worship?

> Maybe as in pie a-la-mode - with ice cream on top.

Referring to Major Barbara's bread and marge? Or maybe simply "it's the
latest thing"?

>> "Dog-end" OED says the end of a cigarette butt. Why would you
>> call that a "dog-end"?

> It's an idiom.

Besides the explanations in other postings, I've always associated it
with rescued butts, saved the way a dog saves unwanted food.

>> Why would he go down to a bog to warm his feet? Aren't bogs cold,
>> muddy swamps?

> That he can do so shows how cold he starts out.

Thought you were English. A bog is a toilet, a public one in A's case.

>
>> I don't get what he means in the last lines, esp. the last two
>> lines:

>> "And you snatch your rattling last breaths with deep-sea-diver
>> sounds, and the flowers bloom like madness in the spring.
>
> He's dying, with mucus rattling in his lungs, but the world,
> inexplicably, continues blooming without him.

"Flowers" has been used to mean "bloodspots", and somewhere I've seen it
used for tubercular bloodstains on a handkerchief (maybe sleeve in this
case), but I can't find an example. The usage was current when the
disease was "consumption" (even harder to search) or "phthisis".
Looking for "flowers of blood" at GooBoo turns up plenty of examples of
the general connection.

[I didn't look at the video either]

CDB

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Dec 10, 2013, 7:24:37 AM12/10/13

to

On 10/12/2013 12:28 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> Gus wrote:

>> "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>> She may have bad intents too, but I think that's in her song,
>>> not his. And I'm not sure she's one of the "little girls".

>> Do we know the narrator is trustworthy or reliable? Perhaps in
>> the beginning he thinks the bum is a pedo, but later he calls him
>> "my friend."

> I think that was a period in history when people--men, anyway--could
> sympathize with a man who had pedophilic feelings if he didn't do
> any actual harm to children.

It's an interesting subject, but discussion of it is suppressed under
the current moral panic. Many of the characteristics that men find
attractive in young adult women are also found in children (smaller
size, higher voice, smooth skin, comparatively long legs, rosy lips and
cheeks, etc), and nature is not given to imposing precise boundaries
unless Darwin is dire4ctly involved.

> I'm reminded of a man some years older than Ian Anderson who told me
> that the headmaster of a school he went to was fair--he liked the
> boys who wouldn't just as much as the boys who would--and who when
> looking at girls of thirteen or so in party dresses said that he
> guessed he was like Maurice Chevalier. I think he was talking about
> sexual feelings, but I feel sure he wouldn't have acted on them.

Gigi was the poster child for grooming.

>> Maybe the electric/loud part represents society's view or an
>> unreliable view of the bum, and the acoustic more of reality or a
>> sympathetic view of the bum? (Someone else said that on Song
>> Meanings.)

> Certainly more sympathetic. I don't know about less conventional or
> more real.

>> I don't think Cross-Eyed Mary is one of the little girls, the
>> lyrics don't really make sense that way in the second song after I
>> looked at them.

>> Do you think the a la mode is ice cream (dessert/food) or
>> "fashionable". Maybe the "bum" got something to eat (perhaps ice
>> cream) along with Salvation?

> Possibly a hint of pie in the sky? He's getting Salvation in the
> mode (of the Salvation Army) /instead/ of the pie he needs? Or maybe
> it just rhymed and fit the tune.

I think you've got it.

> Next: the shuffling madness of the locomotive breath.

Instantly clear to anyone who remember steam trains.

> [snip interesting interview]

Peter T. Daniels

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Dec 10, 2013, 7:57:56 AM12/10/13

to

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 12:28:34 AM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 12/9/13 8:07 PM, Gus wrote:

> > Do we know the narrator is trustworthy or reliable? Perhaps in the
> > beginning he thinks the bum is a pedo, but later he calls him "my
> > friend."
>
> I think that was a period in history when people--men, anyway--could
> sympathize with a man who had pedophilic feelings if he didn't do any
> actual harm to children.
>
> I'm reminded of a man some years older than Ian Anderson who told me
> that the headmaster of a school he went to was fair--he liked the boys
> who wouldn't just as much as the boys who would--and who when looking at
> girls of thirteen or so in party dresses said that he guessed he was
> like Maurice Chevalier. I think he was talking about sexual feelings,
> but I feel sure he wouldn't have acted on them.

Salacious biographer Humphrey Carpenter -- he seems to be / have been the
Kitty Kelly of England -- tried mightily to find men who had worked with
Benjamin Britten as boys who would tell him that he "molested" them. The
"worst" he could come up with was that sometimes BB would sit nearby when
they were taking a bath in a bathtub.

LFS

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Dec 10, 2013, 8:01:09 AM12/10/13

to

And where did you get that nasty little tale from?

--
Laura (emulate St George for email)

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Dec 10, 2013, 3:31:18 PM12/10/13

to

"Jerry Friedman" <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:l868q5$ipe$1...@news.albasani.net...

> On 12/9/13 8:07 PM, Gus wrote:
>> Do we know the narrator is trustworthy or reliable? Perhaps in the
>> beginning he thinks the bum is a pedo, but later he calls him "my
>> friend."
>
> I think that was a period in history when people--men, anyway--could
> sympathize with a man who had pedophilic feelings if he didn't do any
> actual harm to children.
>
> I'm reminded of a man some years older than Ian Anderson who told me
> that the headmaster of a school he went to was fair--he liked the boys
> who wouldn't just as much as the boys who would--and who when looking
> at girls of thirteen or so in party dresses said that he guessed he
> was like Maurice Chevalier. I think he was talking about sexual
> feelings, but I feel sure he wouldn't have acted on them.

>> Do you think the a la mode is ice cream (dessert/food) or
>> "fashionable".
>> Maybe the "bum" got something to eat (perhaps ice cream) along with
>> Salvation?
>
> Possibly a hint of pie in the sky? He's getting Salvation in the mode
> (of the Salvation Army) /instead/ of the pie he needs? Or maybe it
> just rhymed and fit the tune.
>
> Next: the shuffling madness of the locomotive breath.

Interesting. I like your pie-in-the-sky comment. I like that it is open
to some varying interpretations... And speaking of pedos and differing
views and standards years ago, Richard Dawkins said something like what
he experienced wasn't that bad and didn't really harm him or others.
http://www.richarddawkins.net/foundation_articles/2013/9/11/child-abuse-a-misunderstanding#

I've read Mr Anderson says he has never done drugs. How is that
possible being a rock musician in the late 60s/70s?! During some of the
performance I've seen on youtube, he looks half-mad at times.

This site has some annotations of the whole album. I read the Aqualung
section and glanced at some of the rest, interesting. I'm still
surprised Ian Anderson says it was not a concept album. It feels like
it is. Maybe it wasn't consciously done that way.
http://www.cupofwonder.com/aqua2.html#crosseyed

Gus

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Dec 10, 2013, 3:35:42 PM12/10/13

to

"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message

> This shows peat briquettes:
> http://www.luxurywood.co.uk/images/easyblog_images/66/2e1ax_default_frontpage_Peat.jpg

Looks eerily like McDonalds McRib before "cooked" and prepared.

Adam Funk

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Dec 10, 2013, 3:55:45 PM12/10/13

to

On 2013-12-09, Gus wrote:

> There are some parts I don't quite get, maybe it is because of being
> AmE?

Yup, Jethro Tull lyrics are often like that (e.g. "cheap day return"
is a type of train ticket, [cheap [day return]] = out & back on the
same day (as opposed to an open return for coming back another day) &
"cheap" because you have to start the outward journey after peak time
(when most of the commuters are travelling)).

> "Eyeing idle girls with bad intent" is ambiguous. Someone on Song
> Meanings says it refers to the girls, not Aqualung?

"Eyeing little girls with bad intent" means leering at little girls.

--
I have a natural revulsion to any operating system that shows so
little planning as to have to named all of its commands after
digestive noises (awk, grep, fsck, nroff).
[The UNIX-HATERS Handbook]

Adam Funk

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Dec 10, 2013, 3:53:13 PM12/10/13

to

I doubt Ian Anderson would've done that.

--
Slade was the coolest band in England. They were the kind of guys
that would push your car out of a ditch. --- Alice Cooper

Adam Funk

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Dec 10, 2013, 3:58:01 PM12/10/13

to

On 2013-12-10, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:35:35 -0800, Mack A. Damia
><mybaco...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>I'm not sure that bog means toilet in the context of the lyrics; my
>>own thought was that peat bogs are used for fuel, and I also found one
>>reference that said peat bogs are decaying/decomposing vegetation,
>>etc, and give off a fair amount of heat themselves; hence, a beggar
>>might go down to the bog in the colder months to warm his feet.
>>Probably similar to a steam bath with warm vapors rising.
>>
> I live in a part of the world where there are peat bogs. I have never
> heard of anyone going to one to warm the feet. One problem is that peat
> bogs seem to be way out in the countryside in exposed areas so that if
> by good luck you managed to warm your feet during cold weather the rest
> of you would be seriously chilled.

If I wanted to go to a peat bog, I'd have to go *uphill* to do it.

--
Classical Greek lent itself to the promulgation of a rich culture,
indeed, to Western civilization. Computer languages bring us
doorbells that chime with thirty-two tunes, alt.sex.bestiality, and
Tetris clones. (Stoll 1995)

quia...@yahoo.com

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Dec 10, 2013, 4:05:29 PM12/10/13

to

That seems possible, but "Aqualung" might just be a reference to
pneumonia, and maybe just the sounds are of the sea.

--
John

Whiskers

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Dec 10, 2013, 4:30:51 PM12/10/13

to

On 2013-12-10, Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 12/9/13 8:07 PM, Gus wrote:
>> "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:45839b7f-b035-413c-8784-

[...]

> Possibly a hint of pie in the sky? He's getting Salvation in the mode
> (of the Salvation Army) /instead/ of the pie he needs? Or maybe it just
> rhymed and fit the tune.
>
> Next: the shuffling madness of the locomotive breath.
>
> [snip interesting interview]

I don't think ice-cream has anything to do with it; I don't remember
encountering any sort of sweet or confection described a 'a la mode'; in
BrE the phrase simply means 'in the current fashion' - in the song, I
think it's used to refer to the man's habitual use of the Salvation Army
services.

One of the legends about the Sally Army is that they satisfy physical
hunger before trying to address spiritual matters - a starving person
isn't going to take much notice of being preached at. So their 'mode'
is to serve food first.

Mike L

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Dec 10, 2013, 5:11:22 PM12/10/13

to

Cutting across this line, it's worth mentioning that Michael Berkeley
said that in all his time as a boy in that set he never thought there
was any of what he called "that kind of feeling", but there was a lot
of genuine affection. My brother was an undergraduate by the time he
was introduced to the circle socially by his girlfriend, and noticed
nothing untoward.

--
Mike.

Mike L

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Dec 10, 2013, 5:15:52 PM12/10/13

to

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:35:35 -0800, Mack A. Damia
<mybaco...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:11:35 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
><ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 19:27:54 -0500, ebenZ...@verizon.net (Hactar)
>>wrote:

[...]

>>>
>>>IIRC "bog" is UKoGBaNIian for "bathroom". I can only assume those are
>>>typically kept warmer.
>>>
>>A more polite word is "toilet". He starts with the words "Sitting on the
>>park bench". That means that he is in a public park sitting outdoors.
>>Public parks in the UK often have public toilets in a small building.
>
>I have found so many interpretations of the lyrics that it almost
>becomes impossible to sep*rate the phlegm from the spittle.
>
>I'm not sure that bog means toilet in the context of the lyrics; my
>own thought was that peat bogs are used for fuel, and I also found one
>reference that said peat bogs are decaying/decomposing vegetation,
>etc, and give off a fair amount of heat themselves; hence, a beggar
>might go down to the bog in the colder months to warm his feet.
>Probably similar to a steam bath with warm vapors rising.

Having got my feet wet in many an upland bog, I'm highly sceptical!
Anyway, is there likely to be a peat bog near the park?

>
>But another strange suggestion along with the "bog" as a toilet was
>that beggers would go down to the bogs and urinate on their toes to
>prevent frostbite, but wouldn't that make things worse?

I shudder to think.

--
Mike.

LFS

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Dec 10, 2013, 5:35:07 PM12/10/13

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Mike, I'm more bothered by PTD's untoward smearing of HC.

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

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Dec 10, 2013, 5:35:30 PM12/10/13

to

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 20:58:01 +0000, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

>On 2013-12-10, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:35:35 -0800, Mack A. Damia
>><mybaco...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>I'm not sure that bog means toilet in the context of the lyrics; my
>>>own thought was that peat bogs are used for fuel, and I also found one
>>>reference that said peat bogs are decaying/decomposing vegetation,
>>>etc, and give off a fair amount of heat themselves; hence, a beggar
>>>might go down to the bog in the colder months to warm his feet.
>>>Probably similar to a steam bath with warm vapors rising.
>>>
>> I live in a part of the world where there are peat bogs. I have never
>> heard of anyone going to one to warm the feet. One problem is that peat
>> bogs seem to be way out in the countryside in exposed areas so that if
>> by good luck you managed to warm your feet during cold weather the rest
>> of you would be seriously chilled.
>
>If I wanted to go to a peat bog, I'd have to go *uphill* to do it.

The nearest peat bogs to me were downhill from here. They have been
ex-peat-bogs for a very long time but they live on in road names:
Ballybog Road, Mosside Road, Moss Road and a few others.

"Moss" in this sense is:

A bog, swamp; a fen, morass; esp. a peatbog. [OED]

Jeffrey Turner

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Dec 10, 2013, 5:45:31 PM12/10/13

to

On 12/10/2013 12:28 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

>
> I'm reminded of a man some years older than Ian Anderson who told me
> that the headmaster of a school he went to was fair--he liked the boys
> who wouldn't just as much as the boys who would--and who when looking at
> girls of thirteen or so in party dresses said that he guessed he was
> like Maurice Chevalier. I think he was talking about sexual feelings,
> but I feel sure he wouldn't have acted on them.

Sank heavens!

--Jeff

Mike L

unread,

unread,

Dec 12, 2013, 10:10:11 AM12/12/13

to

Or maybe he went there because he wanted some company.

How do you understand "a la mode"? I've been told that my association
with it, (pie) with ice cream, is unlikely for a Brit.

--
Jerry Friedman

pensive hamster

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Dec 12, 2013, 10:44:33 AM12/12/13

to

On Thursday, 12 December 2013 15:10:11 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 12/11/13 10:00 PM, Richard Bollard wrote:

[...]

> > Well as the Army's up the road, salvation-a-la-mode and a cup of tea
> > is what they're offering. I never had any trouble with that image.
> >
> > He is "feeling alone" immediately before that lyric so maybe he
> > rejects their salvation (a la mode) even with the cup of tea bribe.
>
> Or maybe he went there because he wanted some company.
>
> How do you understand "a la mode"? I've been told that my association
> with it, (pie) with ice cream, is unlikely for a Brit.

I'm a Brit, and this is the first time I have heard of "a la mode"
meaning "served with ice cream"

Feeling alone --
the army's up the road
salvation a la mode and
a cup of tea.

I suspect its "a la mode" mostly because it rhymes with "road".
But there is the fairly well-known (in Britland) series of Hogarth
paintings: "Marriage à-la-mode".

According to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_%C3%A0-la-mode_%28Hogarth%29
'Marriage à-la-mode is a series of six pictures painted by William
Hogarth between 1743 and 1745 depicting a pointed skewering
of upper class 18th century society. This moralistic warning shows
the disastrous results of an ill-considered marriage for money and
satirises patronage and aesthetics."

So there could be the suggestion that getting seduced into joining
the Salvation Army by their offer of tea and sympathy, could be as
disastrous as being seduced by the lure of money into an
ill-considered marriage.

That's probably pushing the interpretation a bit far, but it is not
impossible.

the Omrud

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Dec 12, 2013, 10:57:02 AM12/12/13

to

On 12/12/2013 15:44, pensive hamster wrote:
> On Thursday, 12 December 2013 15:10:11 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On 12/11/13 10:00 PM, Richard Bollard wrote:
> [...]
>>> Well as the Army's up the road, salvation-a-la-mode and a cup of tea
>>> is what they're offering. I never had any trouble with that image.
>>>
>>> He is "feeling alone" immediately before that lyric so maybe he
>>> rejects their salvation (a la mode) even with the cup of tea bribe.
>>
>> Or maybe he went there because he wanted some company.
>>
>> How do you understand "a la mode"? I've been told that my association
>> with it, (pie) with ice cream, is unlikely for a Brit.
>
> I'm a Brit, and this is the first time I have heard of "a la mode"
> meaning "served with ice cream"

I'm a Brit and it's not the first time for me, but that's only becuase
I've been exposed to an awful lot of food in North America. I've never
heard it in Europe.

--
David

Adam Funk

unread,

Dec 12, 2013, 11:00:39 AM12/12/13

to

On 2013-12-12, pensive hamster wrote:

> On Thursday, 12 December 2013 15:10:11 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:

>> How do you understand "a la mode"? I've been told that my association
>> with it, (pie) with ice cream, is unlikely for a Brit.
>
> I'm a Brit, and this is the first time I have heard of "a la mode"
> meaning "served with ice cream"
>
> Feeling alone --
> the army's up the road
> salvation a la mode and
> a cup of tea.
>
> I suspect its "a la mode" mostly because it rhymes with "road".
> But there is the fairly well-known (in Britland) series of Hogarth
> paintings: "Marriage à-la-mode".
>
> According to Wikipedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_%C3%A0-la-mode_%28Hogarth%29
> 'Marriage à-la-mode is a series of six pictures painted by William
> Hogarth between 1743 and 1745 depicting a pointed skewering
> of upper class 18th century society. This moralistic warning shows
> the disastrous results of an ill-considered marriage for money and
> satirises patronage and aesthetics."

How did "à la mode" end up meaning "with ice cream" in AmE anyway?
It#s bizarre, now that I think about it.

--
Specifications are for the weak & timid!
--- Klingon Programmer's Guide

Peter T. Daniels

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Dec 12, 2013, 11:27:18 AM12/12/13

to

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:00:39 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:

> How did "à la mode" end up meaning "with ice cream" in AmE anyway?
> It#s bizarre, now that I think about it.

Oh, the irony! LMGTFY:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie_a_la_Mode

John Briggs

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Dec 12, 2013, 11:43:12 AM12/12/13

to

On 12/12/2013 16:27, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:00:39 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
>

>> How did "� la mode" end up meaning "with ice cream" in AmE anyway?

>> It#s bizarre, now that I think about it.
>
> Oh, the irony! LMGTFY:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie_a_la_Mode

Unfortunately for the Chicago World's Fair story, the earliest citation
in the OED is from the Daily News (St. Paul, Minnesota) on 26 April 1893
- five days before the Fair opened.
--
John Briggs

Katy Jennison

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Dec 12, 2013, 11:47:30 AM12/12/13

to

Same here. Whenever I see it on a menu in America I have to remember
all over again what it means.

--
Katy Jennison

Adam Funk

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Dec 12, 2013, 12:56:51 PM12/12/13

to

Ha, you got me!

It's a pretty bizarre story.

--
...the reason why so many professional artists drink a lot is not
necessarily very much to do with the artistic temperament, etc. It is
simply that they can afford to, because they can normally take a large
part of a day off to deal with the ravages. [Amis _On Drink_]

Peter T. Daniels

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Dec 12, 2013, 4:06:35 PM12/12/13

to

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:43:12 AM UTC-5, John Briggs wrote:
> On 12/12/2013 16:27, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:00:39 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:

> >> How did "ï¿½ la mode" end up meaning "with ice cream" in AmE anyway?

> >> It#s bizarre, now that I think about it.
> > Oh, the irony! LMGTFY:
>
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie_a_la_Mode
>
> Unfortunately for the Chicago World's Fair story, the earliest citation
> in the OED is from the Daily News (St. Paul, Minnesota) on 26 April 1893
> - five days before the Fair opened.

OED, as typical for Americanisms, is thus at least 8 years out of date.
Scroll to the paragraph beginning "The Gieriet’s moved" (Oy!). Clearly
wiki editing is at fault: the following paragraph on the World's Fair
story should have been removed, or at least referred to as just another
specious origin story like the Cambridge, NY, one, when the above paragraph
was added.

Gus

unread,

Dec 12, 2013, 4:22:49 PM12/12/13

to

"pensive hamster" <pensive...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:101d8013-bd61-4084-b0c2-

I'm a Brit, and this is the first time I have heard of "a la mode"
meaning "served with ice cream"

Feeling alone --
the army's up the road
salvation a la mode and
a cup of tea.

I suspect its "a la mode" mostly because it rhymes with "road".
But there is the fairly well-known (in Britland) series of Hogarth

paintings: "Marriage �-la-mode".

According to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_%C3%A0-la-mode_%28Hogarth%29

'Marriage �-la-mode is a series of six pictures painted by William

Hogarth between 1743 and 1745 depicting a pointed skewering
of upper class 18th century society. This moralistic warning shows
the disastrous results of an ill-considered marriage for money and
satirises patronage and aesthetics."

So there could be the suggestion that getting seduced into joining
the Salvation Army by their offer of tea and sympathy, could be as
disastrous as being seduced by the lure of money into an
ill-considered marriage.

That's probably pushing the interpretation a bit far, but it is not
impossible.

---

Interesting. Until I saw the lyrics, I thought "goes down to the bog"
was "goes down to the bar" And I never really noticed the "a la mode"
till just looking at the lyrics when I was listening last week,
following JT's xmas CD with Aqualung.

I never saw the lyrics till I bought the remaster CD a few years back.
The English major in me likes analyzing what the author means, and also
is the author reliable to make the best interpretation? I think
usually, but sometimes, authors don't even realize the different
meanings an audience might find or that maybe slipped in subconsciously
or ambiguously.

Gus

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Dec 12, 2013, 4:24:50 PM12/12/13

to

"Katy Jennison" <ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> wrote in message
news:l8cpb1$q5q$1...@news.albasani.net...

To me (AmE) it is always ice cream, usually with pie. Pumpkin or
Apple... When you see "a la mode", what pops into your head first?

John Briggs

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Dec 12, 2013, 4:33:45 PM12/12/13

to

On 12/12/2013 21:06, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:43:12 AM UTC-5, John Briggs wrote:
>> On 12/12/2013 16:27, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:00:39 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
>
>>>> How did "ï¿½ la mode" end up meaning "with ice cream" in AmE anyway?
>>>> It#s bizarre, now that I think about it.
>>> Oh, the irony! LMGTFY:
>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie_a_la_Mode
>>
>> Unfortunately for the Chicago World's Fair story, the earliest citation
>> in the OED is from the Daily News (St. Paul, Minnesota) on 26 April 1893
>> - five days before the Fair opened.
>
> OED, as typical for Americanisms, is thus at least 8 years out of date.

> Scroll to the paragraph beginning "The Gierietï¿½s moved" (Oy!). Clearly

> wiki editing is at fault: the following paragraph on the World's Fair
> story should have been removed, or at least referred to as just another
> specious origin story like the Cambridge, NY, one, when the above paragraph
> was added.

Well, no - there appears to be no actual citation from 1885 for "pie ï¿½
la mode". That appears to be the date of the invention of the *dish*,
not the *name*.
--
John Briggs

R H Draney

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Dec 12, 2013, 4:58:18 PM12/12/13

to

Gus filted:

>
>Interesting. Until I saw the lyrics, I thought "goes down to the bog"
>was "goes down to the bar" And I never really noticed the "a la mode"
>till just looking at the lyrics when I was listening last week,
>following JT's xmas CD with Aqualung.
>
>I never saw the lyrics till I bought the remaster CD a few years back.
>The English major in me likes analyzing what the author means, and also
>is the author reliable to make the best interpretation? I think
>usually, but sometimes, authors don't even realize the different
>meanings an audience might find or that maybe slipped in subconsciously
>or ambiguously.

Mentioned more than once in the past: "Mean Mr Mustard" to an American doesn't
suggest "cheap" but "cruel"....r

--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

Tony Cooper

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Dec 12, 2013, 5:40:34 PM12/12/13

to

On 12 Dec 2013 13:58:18 -0800, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net>
wrote:

Not a comment to you in particular*, but I wonder if the other posters
responding to this thread actually know who Aqualung is and know of
his "music". I had to look him up, and still have no idea what type
of music he provides.

*Your taste is known to be...err...ummm...eclectic, music-wise.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

Katy Jennison

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Dec 12, 2013, 6:51:14 PM12/12/13

to

"In the current fashion". Which conveys very little, on a menu. How am
I expected to know what the chef's latest enthusiasm is?

In fact, since I only ever see it in America, I'd probably ask a
companion in case I'd got it wrong. I might easily mis-remember, and
think it meant with cream rather than with ice-cream.

--
Katy Jennison

Gus

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Dec 12, 2013, 8:37:43 PM12/12/13

to

"Tony Cooper" <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2meka9de37o5k0mu8...@4ax.com...

> Not a comment to you in particular*, but I wonder if the other posters
> responding to this thread actually know who Aqualung is and know of
> his "music". I had to look him up, and still have no idea what type
> of music he provides.
>
> *Your taste is known to be...err...ummm...eclectic, music-wise.
> --
> Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

Thank you, my religion is also eclectic. Sort of a theme in my life. I
like eclectic. I even like the sound of the word.

You seriously didn't know Aqualung/Jethro Tull? I thought everyone over
40 knew them, or at least people that choose to click on the thread
certainly would... Jethro Tull is put in the rock n' roll category
though they won a Grammy for heavy metal back when the category first
came out. I heard the voters didn't really want to give it to a metal
band, and went with the safer choice of Jethro Tull.
http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1877498_1877438_1877489,00.html

Songs from the Wood (not only Aqualung, but a pretty ditty.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgUw6t3b6oE

Tony Cooper

I think Tony's at least as likely to have heard of Maddy Prior's first
solo album, /Woman in the Wings/, which Tull accompanied her on.

> who opened for Jethro
> Tull on their first tour of the states. Their most famous track, _Hotel
> California_ , is an interpretation of the Anderson composition _We Used to
> Know_ .

Does your "is an interpretation of" mean anything more than "has the
same chord progression as"? I can't hear any connection at all between
the two songs, but I take people's word about chord progressions.

--
Jerry Friedman

Tony Cooper

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Dec 13, 2013, 1:59:20 AM12/13/13

to

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:03:23 -0700, Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 12/12/13 9:49 PM, Titus G wrote:
>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>> SNIP
>>
>>> I've hear of Jethro Tull, but couldn't come up with the name of any
>>> song associated with him.
>>
>> Jethro Tull is the name of the band. The lyricist
>
>composer, lead singer, and flutist
>
>> is Ian Anderson.
>> Perhaps you have heard of the USA band _The Eagles_
>
>I think Tony's at least as likely to have heard of Maddy Prior's first
>solo album, /Woman in the Wings/, which Tull accompanied her on.
>

'Fraid not. My musical interests go from Folk to Celtic trad (and
some Celtic rock) and bypass all pop and rock. I can identify certain
pop/rock/popular songs as familiar, but seldom know the artist unless
it's *really* associated with a *really* well-known group like the
Beatles.

I own an iPhone and iPad and have never downloaded a song from iTunes.
I've never owned, or had any interest in, one of those player things
that connect to ear buds that everyone else seems to walk around with.
If the radio in my car is tuned to a music station, it's a jazz
station owned by University of Central Florida. And that's not very
often. Usually, when the radio is on, it's tuned to the NPR station
or the sports station.

Speaking of sports, I do know who Queen is, and that "We Will Rock
You" is theirs. The crowds sing (and stomp) that at football games.
Damned if I know if Queen ever did any other song.

>> who opened for Jethro
>> Tull on their first tour of the states. Their most famous track, _Hotel
>> California_ , is an interpretation of the Anderson composition _We Used to
>> Know_ .
>

John Briggs

unread,

Dec 13, 2013, 7:25:07 AM12/13/13

to

On 13/12/2013 04:17, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 4:33:45 PM UTC-5, John Briggs wrote:
>> On 12/12/2013 21:06, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:43:12 AM UTC-5, John Briggs wrote:
>>>> On 12/12/2013 16:27, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:00:39 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
>
>>>>>> How did "ï¿½ la mode" end up meaning "with ice cream" in AmE anyway?
>>>>>> It#s bizarre, now that I think about it.
>>>>> Oh, the irony! LMGTFY:
>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie_a_la_Mode
>>
>>>> Unfortunately for the Chicago World's Fair story, the earliest citation
>>>> in the OED is from the Daily News (St. Paul, Minnesota) on 26 April 1893
>>>> - five days before the Fair opened.
>>
>>> OED, as typical for Americanisms, is thus at least 8 years out of date.
>>> Scroll to the paragraph beginning "The Gierietï¿½s moved" (Oy!). Clearly
>>> wiki editing is at fault: the following paragraph on the World's Fair
>>> story should have been removed, or at least referred to as just another
>>> specious origin story like the Cambridge, NY, one, when the above paragraph
>>> was added.
>>
>> Well, no - there appears to be no actual citation from 1885 for "pie ï¿½
>> la mode". That appears to be the date of the invention of the *dish*,
>> not the *name*.
>

> Well, yes - "Gieriet called the popular treat ï¿½Pie a la Modeï¿½. It was
> reported in the Duluth Herald that Duluthians in the 1880ï¿½s, [Oy!] often
> mispronounced the local invention as ï¿½Pylie Modeï¿½."

No, the Duluth Herald article in question was published in 1936. Look,
there is evidence from 1885 of the *dish*, and from 1893 of the *name*.
I am not doubting that the name was in use earlier, just pointing out
there is no contemporary evidence of that.
--
John Briggs

John Briggs

unread,

Dec 13, 2013, 7:27:43 AM12/13/13

to

On 13/12/2013 06:03, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 12/12/13 9:49 PM, Titus G wrote:
>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>> SNIP
>>
>>> I've hear of Jethro Tull, but couldn't come up with the name of any
>>> song associated with him.
>>
>> Jethro Tull is the name of the band. The lyricist
>
> composer, lead singer, and flutist

Flautist in BrE.
--
John Briggs

Adam Funk

unread,

Dec 13, 2013, 7:35:24 AM12/13/13

to

On 2013-12-12, John Briggs wrote:

> On 12/12/2013 21:06, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> OED, as typical for Americanisms, is thus at least 8 years out of date.

>> Scroll to the paragraph beginning "The Gieriet’s moved" (Oy!). Clearly

>> wiki editing is at fault: the following paragraph on the World's Fair
>> story should have been removed, or at least referred to as just another
>> specious origin story like the Cambridge, NY, one, when the above paragraph
>> was added.
>

> Well, no - there appears to be no actual citation from 1885 for "pie à

> la mode". That appears to be the date of the invention of the *dish*,
> not the *name*.

Does putting a scoop of ice cream beside something really count as
"inventing a dish"?

--
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
chance. [Robert R. Coveyou]

Adam Funk

unread,

Dec 13, 2013, 7:38:02 AM12/13/13

to

On 2013-12-13, Tony Cooper wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:03:23 -0700, Jerry Friedman
><jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On 12/12/13 9:49 PM, Titus G wrote:

>>> Jethro Tull is the name of the band. The lyricist
>>
>>composer, lead singer, and flutist
>>
>>> is Ian Anderson.
>>> Perhaps you have heard of the USA band _The Eagles_
>>
>>I think Tony's at least as likely to have heard of Maddy Prior's first
>>solo album, /Woman in the Wings/, which Tull accompanied her on.
>>
> 'Fraid not. My musical interests go from Folk to Celtic trad (and
> some Celtic rock) and bypass all pop and rock. I can identify certain
> pop/rock/popular songs as familiar, but seldom know the artist unless
> it's *really* associated with a *really* well-known group like the
> Beatles.

Jethro Tull was sometimes called a folk rock band, sometimes prog
rock, sometimes other things. (ISTR _Thick as a Brick_ was partly a
facetious response to being described as prog rock.)

--
"Mandrake, have you never wondered why I drink only distilled water,
or rain water, and only pure grain alcohol?" [Dr Strangelove]

unread,

Dec 13, 2013, 8:07:50 AM12/13/13

to

On 13/12/2013 12:52, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, December 13, 2013 7:25:07 AM UTC-5, John Briggs wrote:
>> On 13/12/2013 04:17, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 4:33:45 PM UTC-5, John Briggs wrote:
>>>> On 12/12/2013 21:06, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:43:12 AM UTC-5, John Briggs wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/12/2013 16:27, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:00:39 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
>

>>>>>>>> How did "� la mode" end up meaning "with ice cream" in AmE anyway?

>>>>>>>> It#s bizarre, now that I think about it.
>>>>>>> Oh, the irony! LMGTFY:
>>
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie_a_la_Mode
>>
>>>>>> Unfortunately for the Chicago World's Fair story, the earliest citation
>>>>>> in the OED is from the Daily News (St. Paul, Minnesota) on 26 April 1893
>>>>>> - five days before the Fair opened.
>>
>>>>> OED, as typical for Americanisms, is thus at least 8 years out of date.

>>>>> Scroll to the paragraph beginning "The Gieriet�s moved" (Oy!). Clearly

>>>>> wiki editing is at fault: the following paragraph on the World's Fair
>>>>> story should have been removed, or at least referred to as just another
>>>>> specious origin story like the Cambridge, NY, one, when the above
>>>>> paragraph was added.
>>

>>>> Well, no - there appears to be no actual citation from 1885 for "pie �

>>>> la mode". That appears to be the date of the invention of the *dish*,
>>>> not the *name*.
>>

>>> Well, yes - "Gieriet called the popular treat �Pie a la Mode�. It was
>>> reported in the Duluth Herald that Duluthians in the 1880�s, [Oy!] often
>>> mispronounced the local invention as �Pylie Mode�."

>>
>> No, the Duluth Herald article in question was published in 1936. Look,
>> there is evidence from 1885 of the *dish*, and from 1893 of the *name*.
>> I am not doubting that the name was in use earlier, just pointing out
>> there is no contemporary evidence of that.
>
> then why did the 1936 writer say there was? Or did s/he simply invent the
> mispronunciation and attribute it to unknown ancestors?

No extant contemporary evidence. There could well have been oral
testimony in 1936, of course - but to us it is hearsay.
--
John Briggs

Jerry Friedman

unread,

Dec 13, 2013, 10:51:57 AM12/13/13

to

On 12/12/13 11:59 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:03:23 -0700, Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 12/12/13 9:49 PM, Titus G wrote:
>>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>> SNIP
>>>
>>>> I've hear of Jethro Tull, but couldn't come up with the name of any
>>>> song associated with him.
>>>
>>> Jethro Tull is the name of the band. The lyricist
>>
>> composer, lead singer, and flutist
>>
>>> is Ian Anderson.
>>> Perhaps you have heard of the USA band _The Eagles_
>>
>> I think Tony's at least as likely to have heard of Maddy Prior's first
>> solo album, /Woman in the Wings/, which Tull accompanied her on.
>>
> 'Fraid not. My musical interests go from Folk to Celtic trad (and
> some Celtic rock) and bypass all pop and rock.

...

That's why I thought you might have heard of an album by the lead singer
of Steeleye Span.

> Speaking of sports, I do know who Queen is, and that "We Will Rock
> You" is theirs. The crowds sing (and stomp) that at football games.
> Damned if I know if Queen ever did any other song.

...

I'm pretty sure I remember some.

--
Jerry Friedman

Jenn

unread,

Dec 13, 2013, 11:05:04 AM12/13/13

to

I couldn't tell you the name of a group or the names of the people in
the group, either. There are songs I like to listen to when I hear them,
but I couldn't tell you the name of the majority of them, either. I
don't know why that is because I've tried to remember those details. I
wish there were some memory trick that I could do that would help. If
I'm going to remember someones name, or title, etc. I have to write it
down and refer to my notes for quite a while before I will actually
remember w/o the notes.

OTOH, I can remember various other details throughout my day, or even
weeks, months, and years later.

--
Jenn

Tony Cooper

unread,

Dec 13, 2013, 11:33:51 AM12/13/13

to

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 08:51:57 -0700, Jerry Friedman

<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 12/12/13 11:59 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:03:23 -0700, Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 12/12/13 9:49 PM, Titus G wrote:
>>>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>
>>>> SNIP
>>>>
>>>>> I've hear of Jethro Tull, but couldn't come up with the name of any
>>>>> song associated with him.
>>>>
>>>> Jethro Tull is the name of the band. The lyricist
>>>
>>> composer, lead singer, and flutist
>>>
>>>> is Ian Anderson.
>>>> Perhaps you have heard of the USA band _The Eagles_
>>>
>>> I think Tony's at least as likely to have heard of Maddy Prior's first
>>> solo album, /Woman in the Wings/, which Tull accompanied her on.
>>>
>> 'Fraid not. My musical interests go from Folk to Celtic trad (and
>> some Celtic rock) and bypass all pop and rock.
>...
>
>That's why I thought you might have heard of an album by the lead singer
>of Steeleye Span.

First mention here of a group that is represented in my collection of
CDs. I never noticed the names of those in the group, though. Martin
Carthy is more familiar to me than Maddy Prior. (I Googled the group)

>
>> Speaking of sports, I do know who Queen is, and that "We Will Rock
>> You" is theirs. The crowds sing (and stomp) that at football games.
>> Damned if I know if Queen ever did any other song.
>...
>
>I'm pretty sure I remember some.
--

the Omrud

unread,

Dec 13, 2013, 11:41:15 AM12/13/13

to

On 13/12/2013 16:33, Tony Cooper wrote:

> First mention here of a group that is represented in my collection of
> CDs. I never noticed the names of those in the group, though. Martin
> Carthy is more familiar to me than Maddy Prior. (I Googled the group)

I saw Maddy Prior once - she was singing on the live performace of
Tubular Bells I saw in Manchester in about 1978.

Oooh, the Internet is my friend:

1979/05/04 Manchester Kings Hall, Belle Vue

--
David

Adam Funk

unread,

Dec 13, 2013, 11:48:51 AM12/13/13

to

Right, but obviously a restaurant capable of serving ice cream on pie
was already capable of serving ice cream or pie.

> You claim to have once lived in the USA.

What kind of a stupid statement is that?

--
But the government always tries to coax well-known writers into the
Establishment; it makes them feel educated. [Robert Graves]

John Briggs

unread,

Dec 13, 2013, 12:02:25 PM12/13/13

to

A Peter T Daniels stupid statement?
--
John Briggs

Gus

unread,

Dec 13, 2013, 1:47:37 PM12/13/13

to

"Titus G" <tit...@jobbleuniversity.com> wrote in message
news:l8e3ki$ak4$1...@dont-email.me...

I had not heard that... Ian talks about it in an interview:

SF: Your song "We Used To Know" is certainly an influence on "Hotel
California." Can you talk about that?

Ian: It was a piece of music that we were playing around the time. I
believe it was late '71, maybe early '72 when we were on tour and we had
a support band who had been signed up for the tour, and subsequently,
before the tour began, had a hit single. The song, I believe, called
"Take It Easy." And they were indeed the Eagles. We didn't interact with
them very much because they were countrified laid back polite rock, and
we were a bit wacky and English and doing weird stuff. And I don't think
they liked us, and we didn't much like them. There was no communication,
really, at all. Just a polite observance of each other's space when it
came to sound checks and show time. But they probably heard us play the
song, because that would have featured in the sets back then, and maybe
it was just something they kind of picked up on subconsciously, and
introduced that chord sequence into their famous song "Hotel California"
sometime later. But, you know, it's not plagiarism. It's just the same
chord sequence. It's in a different time signature, different key,
different context. And it's a very, very fine song that they wrote, so I
can't feel anything other than a sense of happiness for their sake. And
I feel flattered that they came across that chord sequence. But it's
difficult to find a chord sequence that hasn't been used, and hasn't
been the focus of lots of pieces of music. It's harmonic progression is
almost a mathematical certainty you're gonna crop up with the same thing
sooner or later if you sit strumming a few chords on a guitar.

There's certainly no bitterness or any sense of plagiarism attached to
my view on it, although I do sometimes allude, in a joking way, to
accepting it as a kind of tribute. It's a bit like this tribute Rolex
that I'm wearing.

http://www.songfacts.com/blog/interviews/ian_anderson_of_jethro_tull/

Peter T. Daniels

unread,

Dec 13, 2013, 2:30:41 PM12/13/13

to

One appropriate concerning someone who finds pie a la mode an alien concept.
("Beside.")

R H Draney

unread,

Dec 13, 2013, 3:01:59 PM12/13/13

to

John Briggs filted:

Richard Bollard

unread,

Dec 15, 2013, 8:45:49 PM12/15/13

to

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 08:10:11 -0700, Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 12/11/13 10:00 PM, Richard Bollard wrote:
>> On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 22:28:34 -0700, Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/9/13 8:07 PM, Gus wrote:
>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Do you think the a la mode is ice cream (dessert/food) or "fashionable".
>>>> Maybe the "bum" got something to eat (perhaps ice cream) along with
>>>> Salvation?
>>>
>>> Possibly a hint of pie in the sky? He's getting Salvation in the mode
>>> (of the Salvation Army) /instead/ of the pie he needs? Or maybe it just
>>> rhymed and fit the tune.
>>
>> Well as the Army's up the road, salvation-a-la-mode and a cup of tea
>> is what they're offering. I never had any trouble with that image.
>>
>> He is "feeling alone" immediately before that lyric so maybe he
>> rejects their salvation (a la mode) even with the cup of tea bribe.
>
>Or maybe he went there because he wanted some company.
>
>How do you understand "a la mode"? I've been told that my association
>with it, (pie) with ice cream, is unlikely for a Brit.

I agree, no ice cream. Just "in their style" I think.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Richard Bollard

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Dec 15, 2013, 8:47:29 PM12/15/13

to

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:44:33 -0800 (PST), pensive hamster
<pensive...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thursday, 12 December 2013 15:10:11 UTC, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On 12/11/13 10:00 PM, Richard Bollard wrote:

>[...]

>> > Well as the Army's up the road, salvation-a-la-mode and a cup of tea
>> > is what they're offering. I never had any trouble with that image.
>> >
>> > He is "feeling alone" immediately before that lyric so maybe he
>> > rejects their salvation (a la mode) even with the cup of tea bribe.
>>
>> Or maybe he went there because he wanted some company.
>>
>> How do you understand "a la mode"? I've been told that my association
>> with it, (pie) with ice cream, is unlikely for a Brit.
>

>I'm a Brit, and this is the first time I have heard of "a la mode"
>meaning "served with ice cream"
>
>Feeling alone --
>the army's up the road
>salvation a la mode and
>a cup of tea.
>
>I suspect its "a la mode" mostly because it rhymes with "road".
>But there is the fairly well-known (in Britland) series of Hogarth
>paintings: "Marriage �-la-mode".
>
>According to Wikipedia:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_%C3%A0-la-mode_%28Hogarth%29
>'Marriage �-la-mode is a series of six pictures painted by William
>Hogarth between 1743 and 1745 depicting a pointed skewering
>of upper class 18th century society. This moralistic warning shows
>the disastrous results of an ill-considered marriage for money and
>satirises patronage and aesthetics."
>
>So there could be the suggestion that getting seduced into joining
>the Salvation Army by their offer of tea and sympathy, could be as
>disastrous as being seduced by the lure of money into an
>ill-considered marriage.
>
>That's probably pushing the interpretation a bit far, but it is not
>impossible.
>
Anderson is quite art-aware so it is possible. He may be lumping the
Sally Army style with the society the tramp has rejected (and that has
rejected the tramp).

Richard Bollard

unread,

Dec 15, 2013, 11:54:16 PM12/15/13

to

Ian has made the claim himself as part of his concert banter. He
mentions that they shared studios around the time and speculates that
the chord progression might have ear-wormed its way into whoever
composed HC. It yields to Google: I think there may be an interview on
You Tube.

Richard Bollard

unread,

Dec 15, 2013, 11:55:45 PM12/15/13

to

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:41:15 +0000, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
wrote:

She also sang some backup on Too Old to Rock and Roll, Too Young to
Die, returning the Tull favour. Weren't they both with Chrysalis?

Jerry Friedman

unread,

Dec 16, 2013, 9:55:04 AM12/16/13

to

On 12/15/13 6:45 PM, Richard Bollard wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 08:10:11 -0700, Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 12/11/13 10:00 PM, Richard Bollard wrote:

...

>>> Well as the Army's up the road, salvation-a-la-mode and a cup of tea
>>> is what they're offering. I never had any trouble with that image.

...

>> How do you understand "a la mode"? I've been told that my association
>> with it, (pie) with ice cream, is unlikely for a Brit.
>
> I agree, no ice cream. Just "in their style" I think.

Thanks to you and everyone else who answered my question.

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter Ward

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Dec 16, 2013, 12:25:53 PM12/16/13

to

Richard Bollard says...

Tull were on initially on Island, who released Chrysalis artists at that
time, and later on Chrysalis itself; Steeleye Span were on Chrysalis
starting with Below the Salt, I believe. Early albums on the Chrysalis
label still had Island serial numbers, e.g. ILPS 9143 for Aqualung.

--

Peter, from outside the asylum

I'm an alien
email: usenet at peterward dot adsl24 dot co dot uk
Ok, that settles it. I'm going to have a drink right now.
- Jesper Lauridsen

Snidely

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Dec 17, 2013, 4:37:48 AM12/17/13

to

John Briggs is guilty of <43Dqu.23748$o61....@fx10.am4> as of
12/13/2013 4:27:43 AM

Is that true for someone not playing classical music? Over here,
"flutist" applies to any flute player, but "flautist" suggests white
shirt, black tails, and bow tie.

/dps

--
I have always been glad we weren't killed that night. I do not know
any particular reason, but I have always been glad.
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

James Hogg

unread,

Dec 17, 2013, 5:22:44 AM12/17/13

to

Snidely wrote:
> John Briggs is guilty of <43Dqu.23748$o61....@fx10.am4> as of
> 12/13/2013 4:27:43 AM
>> On 13/12/2013 06:03, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On 12/12/13 9:49 PM, Titus G wrote:
>>>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>
>>>> SNIP
>>>>
>>>>> I've hear of Jethro Tull, but couldn't come up with the name of any
>>>>> song associated with him.
>>>>
>>>> Jethro Tull is the name of the band. The lyricist
>>>
>>> composer, lead singer, and flutist
>>
>> Flautist in BrE.
>
> Is that true for someone not playing classical music? Over here,
> "flutist" applies to any flute player, but "flautist" suggests white
> shirt, black tails, and bow tie.

French usage prefers "fluter".

--
James

Adam Funk

unread,

Dec 17, 2013, 11:01:00 AM12/17/13

to

I didn't find the dish strange but *the name*. I haven't had it in a
long time & wouldn't complain if I ordered it & found the ice cream
misplaced beside the pie --- there's little substantial difference.

--
The three-martini lunch is the epitome of American efficiency.
Where else can you get an earful, a bellyful and a snootful at
the same time? [Gerald Ford, 1978]

Peter T. Daniels

unread,

Dec 17, 2013, 5:33:54 PM12/17/13

to

On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 11:01:00 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2013-12-13, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, December 13, 2013 11:48:51 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> On 2013-12-13, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> > On Friday, December 13, 2013 7:35:24 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:

> >> >> Does putting a scoop of ice cream beside something really count as
> >> >> "inventing a dish"?
> >> > Atop. Not beside.
> >> > Ice cream was not exactly ubiquitous before electric freezers were
> >> > widely available.
> >> Right, but obviously a restaurant capable of serving ice cream on pie
> >> was already capable of serving ice cream or pie.
> >> > You claim to have once lived in the USA.
> >> What kind of a stupid statement is that?
> > One appropriate concerning someone who finds pie a la mode an alien concept.
> > ("Beside.")
>
> I didn't find the dish strange but *the name*. I haven't had it in a
> long time & wouldn't complain if I ordered it & found the ice cream
> misplaced beside the pie --- there's little substantial difference.

There's a very great difference. If it's "beside," it might as well
be in a separate dish -- actually that might even be preferable to
"beside," because it would be easier to place it on top of the pie
slice, where it belongs, than it would be to move it from "beside."
The _point_ is that the warm pie, fresh out of the oven, melts the
ice cream into itself, the concoction's raison d'etre.

Mike L

unread,

Dec 17, 2013, 6:09:38 PM12/17/13

to

On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:22:44 +0100, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
wrote:

>Snidely wrote:
>> John Briggs is guilty of <43Dqu.23748$o61....@fx10.am4> as of
>> 12/13/2013 4:27:43 AM
>>> On 13/12/2013 06:03, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> On 12/12/13 9:49 PM, Titus G wrote:

[...]

>>>>> Jethro Tull is the name of the band. The lyricist
>>>> composer, lead singer, and flutist
>>>
>>> Flautist in BrE.
>>
>> Is that true for someone not playing classical music? Over here,
>> "flutist" applies to any flute player, but "flautist" suggests white
>> shirt, black tails, and bow tie.
>
>French usage prefers "fluter".

Phil the fluter had a ball.

--
Mike.

R H Draney

unread,

Dec 17, 2013, 11:17:50 PM12/17/13

to

Peter T. Daniels filted:

>
>There's a very great difference. If it's "beside," it might as well
>be in a separate dish -- actually that might even be preferable to
>"beside," because it would be easier to place it on top of the pie
>slice, where it belongs, than it would be to move it from "beside."
>The _point_ is that the warm pie, fresh out of the oven, melts the
>ice cream into itself, the concoction's raison d'etre.

I don't much care for pie with raisons....r

Peter T. Daniels

unread,

Dec 17, 2013, 11:35:41 PM12/17/13

to

Not Dutch apple? With a few raisins among the apples, and icing?