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Haberdasher(y)
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Ross Clark
Jan 16, 2023, 5:13:01 AM1/16/23
to
This curious word came up in the sans-culottes thread. I'm sure I've
"known" it since childhood, but never had a clear idea of its meaning
(something to do with clothing), never had occasion to use it, never
knowingly patronized an establishment so described.
Thus NODE (my primary offline dictionary) presents me with a pondian
split that I had not been aware of:
haberdasher, n.
1. (Brit) A dealer in small items used in sewing, such as buttons,
zips, and thread.
2. (N.Amer.) A dealer in men's clothing.
(The -y suffixed form refers either to the shop or the goods sold.)
It goes back to Middle English (possible Anglo-French origin), meaning
at first "dealer in a variety of household goods". May once have
referred to a hatter. Present meanings date from 17th century.
Asked my NZEng informant what a haberdasher sells. Her first reply was
"Hats and gloves...things we don't wear any more." But when I read her
the above definitions she agreed that (1) was more likely. Probably a
word she doesn't use often. But indeed sense 1 seems to be what you get
if you look for "haberdashery" in New Zealand:
Complete all your haberdashery needs from pins, elastics, buttons,
threads, zippers, hooks, needles, cords, ribbons, trims, tapes, to many
others, ...
https://lincraft.co.nz/collections/haberdashery-essentials
And local dictionaries agree -- ONZD and Macquarie both give sense (1)
first and list (2) as US.
But more important: Does a.u.e. agree? Is this neat dichotomy still
valid? Is the word itself fading away?
"known" it since childhood, but never had a clear idea of its meaning
(something to do with clothing), never had occasion to use it, never
knowingly patronized an establishment so described.
Thus NODE (my primary offline dictionary) presents me with a pondian
split that I had not been aware of:
haberdasher, n.
1. (Brit) A dealer in small items used in sewing, such as buttons,
zips, and thread.
2. (N.Amer.) A dealer in men's clothing.
(The -y suffixed form refers either to the shop or the goods sold.)
It goes back to Middle English (possible Anglo-French origin), meaning
at first "dealer in a variety of household goods". May once have
referred to a hatter. Present meanings date from 17th century.
Asked my NZEng informant what a haberdasher sells. Her first reply was
"Hats and gloves...things we don't wear any more." But when I read her
the above definitions she agreed that (1) was more likely. Probably a
word she doesn't use often. But indeed sense 1 seems to be what you get
if you look for "haberdashery" in New Zealand:
Complete all your haberdashery needs from pins, elastics, buttons,
threads, zippers, hooks, needles, cords, ribbons, trims, tapes, to many
others, ...
https://lincraft.co.nz/collections/haberdashery-essentials
And local dictionaries agree -- ONZD and Macquarie both give sense (1)
first and list (2) as US.
But more important: Does a.u.e. agree? Is this neat dichotomy still
valid? Is the word itself fading away?
Mark Brader
Jan 16, 2023, 5:53:49 AM1/16/23
to
Ross Clark:
American/British distinction, more or less. The OED Online does not
seem to have picked up the American sense at all.
The most famous person to have been a haberdasher would be future
US president Harry Truman. From 1919 to 1921 he was co-owner of the
Truman and Jacobson Haberdashery in Kansas City, Mo. [1], which sold
shirts, ties, underwear, socks, etc., but no suits, coats, or shoes.
The page [2] where I found those details does not use the word
"haberdashery", but these ones [3, 4] do.
[1] See http://www.trumanlibrary.gov/photograph-records/82-153
[2] See http://millercenter.org/president/truman/life-in-brief
[3] See http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/history/truman.asp
[4] See http://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/11/books/review/the-trials-of-harry-s-truman-jeffrey-frank.html
--
Mark Brader "How can we believe that?"
Toronto "Because this time it's true!"
m...@vex.net -- Lynn & Jay: YES, PRIME MINISTER
My text in this article is in the public domain.
> Thus NODE (my primary offline dictionary) presents me with a pondian
> split that I had not been aware of:
>
> haberdasher, n.
> 1. (Brit) A dealer in small items used in sewing, such as buttons,
> zips, and thread.
> 2. (N.Amer.) A dealer in men's clothing.
>
> (The -y suffixed form refers either to the shop or the goods sold.)
Three online dictionaries I checked through onelook.com support that
> split that I had not been aware of:
>
> haberdasher, n.
> 1. (Brit) A dealer in small items used in sewing, such as buttons,
> zips, and thread.
> 2. (N.Amer.) A dealer in men's clothing.
>
> (The -y suffixed form refers either to the shop or the goods sold.)
American/British distinction, more or less. The OED Online does not
seem to have picked up the American sense at all.
The most famous person to have been a haberdasher would be future
US president Harry Truman. From 1919 to 1921 he was co-owner of the
Truman and Jacobson Haberdashery in Kansas City, Mo. [1], which sold
shirts, ties, underwear, socks, etc., but no suits, coats, or shoes.
The page [2] where I found those details does not use the word
"haberdashery", but these ones [3, 4] do.
[1] See http://www.trumanlibrary.gov/photograph-records/82-153
[2] See http://millercenter.org/president/truman/life-in-brief
[3] See http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/history/truman.asp
[4] See http://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/11/books/review/the-trials-of-harry-s-truman-jeffrey-frank.html
--
Mark Brader "How can we believe that?"
Toronto "Because this time it's true!"
m...@vex.net -- Lynn & Jay: YES, PRIME MINISTER
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Peter Moylan
Jan 16, 2023, 6:17:44 AM1/16/23
to
label for the section where sewing gear is sold.
I've never heard it used for clothing, but often rolls of cloth can be
found adjacent to the haberdashery section.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Dingbat
Jan 16, 2023, 7:44:43 AM1/16/23
to
On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 2:13:01 AM UTC-8, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> This curious word came up in the sans-culottes thread. I'm sure I've
> "known" it since childhood, but never had a clear idea of its meaning
> (something to do with clothing), never had occasion to use it, never
> knowingly patronized an establishment so described.
>
Before 1960, in India:
> This curious word came up in the sans-culottes thread. I'm sure I've
> "known" it since childhood, but never had a clear idea of its meaning
> (something to do with clothing), never had occasion to use it, never
> knowingly patronized an establishment so described.
>
A long deceased relative's shop was called a haberdashery.
It sold umbrellas, shaving kits and combs among other things.
Also, at that time, a pharmacist was called an apothecary.
>
> Thus NODE (my primary offline dictionary) presents me with a pondian
> split that I had not been aware of:
>
> haberdasher, n.
> 1. (Brit) A dealer in small items used in sewing, such as buttons,
> zips, and thread.
> 2. (N.Amer.) A dealer in men's clothing.
>
> Thus NODE (my primary offline dictionary) presents me with a pondian
> split that I had not been aware of:
>
> haberdasher, n.
> 1. (Brit) A dealer in small items used in sewing, such as buttons,
> zips, and thread.
> 2. (N.Amer.) A dealer in men's clothing.
>
Peter T. Daniels
Jan 16, 2023, 10:20:59 AM1/16/23
to
On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 5:13:01 AM UTC-5, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> This curious word came up in the sans-culottes thread. I'm sure I've
> "known" it since childhood, but never had a clear idea of its meaning
> (something to do with clothing), never had occasion to use it, never
> knowingly patronized an establishment so described.
>
> Thus NODE (my primary offline dictionary) presents me with a pondian
> split that I had not been aware of:
>
> haberdasher, n.
> 1. (Brit) A dealer in small items used in sewing, such as buttons,
> zips, and thread.
> 2. (N.Amer.) A dealer in men's clothing.
In AmE, (1) is "notions."
> This curious word came up in the sans-culottes thread. I'm sure I've
> "known" it since childhood, but never had a clear idea of its meaning
> (something to do with clothing), never had occasion to use it, never
> knowingly patronized an establishment so described.
>
> Thus NODE (my primary offline dictionary) presents me with a pondian
> split that I had not been aware of:
>
> haberdasher, n.
> 1. (Brit) A dealer in small items used in sewing, such as buttons,
> zips, and thread.
> 2. (N.Amer.) A dealer in men's clothing.
Until the 1950s, when the American garment industry was centered
around Seventh Avenue in the 30s [streets], the factories were on the
upper floors of the loft buildings (compare the Triangle Shirtwaist
Fire, which was in a building -- now used by NYU -- back when the
industry was in the West Village -- and the shops that sold supplies
were street-level storefronts, on Sixth, Seventh, and probably Eighth
and all the side streets in between -- but the shops specialized. There
were button shops, ribbon shops, etc. etc. (But the yard-goods dealers
were probably on upper floors because they would have needed more
space.)
> (The -y suffixed form refers either to the shop or the goods sold.)
>
> It goes back to Middle English (possible Anglo-French origin), meaning
> at first "dealer in a variety of household goods". May once have
> referred to a hatter. Present meanings date from 17th century.
>
> Asked my NZEng informant what a haberdasher sells. Her first reply was
> "Hats and gloves...things we don't wear any more." But when I read her
> the above definitions she agreed that (1) was more likely. Probably a
> word she doesn't use often. But indeed sense 1 seems to be what you get
> if you look for "haberdashery" in New Zealand:
>
> Complete all your haberdashery needs from pins, elastics, buttons,
> threads, zippers, hooks, needles, cords, ribbons, trims, tapes, to many
> others, ...
> https://lincraft.co.nz/collections/haberdashery-essentials
>
> And local dictionaries agree -- ONZD and Macquarie both give sense (1)
> first and list (2) as US.
>
> But more important: Does a.u.e. agree? Is this neat dichotomy still
> valid? Is the word itself fading away?
a haberdasher) "can become president." (I didn't know it was only for
two years. And there are photos of him in his WWI uniform complete
with Smokey Bear hat, from just before.)
Ross Clark
Jan 16, 2023, 1:49:09 PM1/16/23
to
Dingbat
Jan 16, 2023, 7:51:00 PM1/16/23
to
2) I haven't seen TWIT used as a verb the way PTD is using it.
3) What I've seen is 'Even a dishwasher can become a President in America!' but that's a corporate President.
4) William F Buckley, Jr might say about Trump that even a narcissist can become President, considering that he called Trump that in a National Review article.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+narcissit+buckley>
TonyCooper
Jan 16, 2023, 8:18:11 PM1/16/23
to
On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 16:50:57 -0800 (PST), Dingbat
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 10:49:09 AM UTC-8, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
>> On 17/01/2023 4:20 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > The republicans loved to twit Truman as the proof that "anyone" (even
>> > a haberdasher) "can become president." (I didn't know it was only for
>> > two years. And there are photos of him in his WWI uniform complete
>> > with Smokey Bear hat, from just before.)
>> As with the "peanut farmer" some decades later.
>>
>1) The supply of haberdashers seems to have petered out.
>2) I haven't seen TWIT used as a verb the way PTD is using it.
It's not a commonly used word in that context, but he used it
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 10:49:09 AM UTC-8, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
>> On 17/01/2023 4:20 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > The republicans loved to twit Truman as the proof that "anyone" (even
>> > a haberdasher) "can become president." (I didn't know it was only for
>> > two years. And there are photos of him in his WWI uniform complete
>> > with Smokey Bear hat, from just before.)
>> As with the "peanut farmer" some decades later.
>>
>1) The supply of haberdashers seems to have petered out.
>2) I haven't seen TWIT used as a verb the way PTD is using it.
correctly. To twit someone is to lightly tease them.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida
Paul Wolff
Jan 16, 2023, 8:22:58 PM1/16/23
to
On Mon, 16 Jan 2023, at 10:53:39, Mark Brader posted:
(British English.) A handy word, accoutrements.
>The page [2] where I found those details does not use the word
>"haberdashery", but these ones [3, 4] do.
>
I have no opinion on those signposts. Life's too short.
>[1] See http://www.trumanlibrary.gov/photograph-records/82-153
>[2] See http://millercenter.org/president/truman/life-in-brief
>[3] See http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/history/truman.asp
>[4] See
>http://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/11/books/review/the-trials-of-harry-s-tru
>man-jeffrey-frank.html
--
Paul W
>Ross Clark:
>> Thus NODE (my primary offline dictionary) presents me with a pondian
>> split that I had not been aware of:
Mine too.
>> Thus NODE (my primary offline dictionary) presents me with a pondian
>> split that I had not been aware of:
>>
>> haberdasher, n.
>> 1. (Brit) A dealer in small items used in sewing, such as buttons,
>> zips, and thread.
>> 2. (N.Amer.) A dealer in men's clothing.
>>
>> (The -y suffixed form refers either to the shop or the goods sold.)
>
>Three online dictionaries I checked through onelook.com support that
>American/British distinction, more or less. The OED Online does not
>seem to have picked up the American sense at all.
>
>The most famous person to have been a haberdasher would be future
>US president Harry Truman. From 1919 to 1921 he was co-owner of the
>Truman and Jacobson Haberdashery in Kansas City, Mo. [1], which sold
>shirts, ties, underwear, socks, etc., but no suits, coats, or shoes.
I'd say that haberdashers sell accoutrements to the tailoring trade.
>> haberdasher, n.
>> 1. (Brit) A dealer in small items used in sewing, such as buttons,
>> zips, and thread.
>> 2. (N.Amer.) A dealer in men's clothing.
>>
>> (The -y suffixed form refers either to the shop or the goods sold.)
>
>Three online dictionaries I checked through onelook.com support that
>American/British distinction, more or less. The OED Online does not
>seem to have picked up the American sense at all.
>
>The most famous person to have been a haberdasher would be future
>US president Harry Truman. From 1919 to 1921 he was co-owner of the
>Truman and Jacobson Haberdashery in Kansas City, Mo. [1], which sold
>shirts, ties, underwear, socks, etc., but no suits, coats, or shoes.
(British English.) A handy word, accoutrements.
>The page [2] where I found those details does not use the word
>"haberdashery", but these ones [3, 4] do.
>
>[1] See http://www.trumanlibrary.gov/photograph-records/82-153
>[2] See http://millercenter.org/president/truman/life-in-brief
>[3] See http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/history/truman.asp
>[4] See
>http://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/11/books/review/the-trials-of-harry-s-tru
>man-jeffrey-frank.html
--
Sam Plusnet
Jan 16, 2023, 9:17:38 PM1/16/23
to
Not exactly the norm today.
--
Sam Plusnet
Dingbat
Jan 16, 2023, 10:51:15 PM1/16/23
to
On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 5:22:58 PM UTC-8, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jan 2023, at 10:53:39, Mark Brader posted:
> >Ross Clark:
> >> Thus NODE (my primary offline dictionary) presents me with a pondian
> >> split that I had not been aware of:
> Mine too.
> >>
> >> haberdasher, n.
> >> 1. (Brit) A dealer in small items used in sewing, such as buttons,
> >> zips, and thread.
> >> 2. (N.Amer.) A dealer in men's clothing.
> >>
> >> (The -y suffixed form refers either to the shop or the goods sold.)
> >
> >Three online dictionaries I checked through onelook.com support that
> >American/British distinction, more or less. The OED Online does not
> >seem to have picked up the American sense at all.
> >
> >The most famous person to have been a haberdasher would be future
> >US president Harry Truman. From 1919 to 1921 he was co-owner of the
> >Truman and Jacobson Haberdashery in Kansas City, Mo. [1], which sold
> >shirts, ties, underwear, socks, etc., but no suits, coats, or shoes.
> I'd say that haberdashers sell accoutrements to the tailoring trade.
>
My distant relative might have sold those too to seamstresses.
> On Mon, 16 Jan 2023, at 10:53:39, Mark Brader posted:
> >Ross Clark:
> >> Thus NODE (my primary offline dictionary) presents me with a pondian
> >> split that I had not been aware of:
> Mine too.
> >>
> >> haberdasher, n.
> >> 1. (Brit) A dealer in small items used in sewing, such as buttons,
> >> zips, and thread.
> >> 2. (N.Amer.) A dealer in men's clothing.
> >>
> >> (The -y suffixed form refers either to the shop or the goods sold.)
> >
> >Three online dictionaries I checked through onelook.com support that
> >American/British distinction, more or less. The OED Online does not
> >seem to have picked up the American sense at all.
> >
> >The most famous person to have been a haberdasher would be future
> >US president Harry Truman. From 1919 to 1921 he was co-owner of the
> >Truman and Jacobson Haberdashery in Kansas City, Mo. [1], which sold
> >shirts, ties, underwear, socks, etc., but no suits, coats, or shoes.
> I'd say that haberdashers sell accoutrements to the tailoring trade.
>
I'm not sure since I'm unacquainted with what he sold to women.
Professional tailors usually had suppliers making it relatively
unnecessary for them to shop at stores.
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