Does a northerly wind go in the same direction as a north wind?

[Dingbat]

I learned many moons ago that the North wind goes southward. It appears that a northerly wind too goes southward, so perhaps northerly means "of the north" rather than "toward the north":

A mistral is a cold, dry, northerly wind common in southern France and neighboring regions.
http://www.dictionary.com/slideshows/wind-words#mistral

Northerly traffic, however, goes northward:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Rg3ylFhn1SkC&pg=PA69&dq=northerly
While northerly traffic slowed to a stop, southbound traffic poured down ...

There wouldn't be such a confusion in a Tamil, Malayalam or Japanese translation where these would be north-from wind vs. north-to traffic.


Why does a 'northerly' wind come from the north, but if I drive in a northerly direction I'm going north?
Best Answer: It's an old seafarers' convention that is now implemented in international Search And Rescue (SAR) operations.
https://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101123202234AAkfFkO

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 7:14:22 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

> I learned many moons ago that the North wind goes southward. It appears that a northerly wind too goes southward, so perhaps northerly means "of the north" rather than "toward the north":

A nor'easter is a storm (in the, er, northeastern US) that blows out of the
northeast, bringing cold air to New York and Philadelphia (etc.). It was
Benjamin Franklin who discovered that they were the upper-left part of an
enormous counterclockwise storm system over the ocean, by correlating
simultaneous weather reports from all over the Colonies. (Quite an achievement,
considering how long it took news to travel.)

[Dingbat]

On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 8:54:02 AM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> A nor'easter is a storm (in the, er, northeastern US) that blows out of
> the northeast, bringing cold air to New York and Philadelphia (etc.).

One might be surprised to learn what a sou'wester is:-)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sou'wester

> It was Benjamin Franklin who discovered that they were the upper-left part
> of an enormous counterclockwise storm system over the ocean, by
> correlating > simultaneous weather reports from all over the Colonies.
> (Quite an achievement, considering how long it took news to travel.)

A most remarkable effort!

"Systematics of a storm system" could be used to describe what causes a storm system to form and dissipate, what?

[Mike Barnes]

Dingbat wrote:
> Why does a 'northerly' wind come from the north, but if I drive in a
> northerly direction I'm going north?

Because the important qualities of a wind are determined by its
source, but with a journey it's usually the destination that matters more.

> It's an old
> seafarers' convention that is now implemented in international Search
> And Rescue (SAR) operations.

That's true, but it doesn't explain the apparent anomaly.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-04-24 23:14:19 +0000, Dingbat said:

> I learned many moons ago that the North wind goes southward. It appears
> that a northerly wind too goes southward, so perhaps northerly means
> "of the north" rather than "toward the north":
>
> A mistral is a cold, dry, northerly wind common in southern France and
> neighboring regions.
> http://www.dictionary.com/slideshows/wind-words#mistral

I don't think one would normally use "northerly" in that sentence: one
would say "north". Also, "neighbouring regions" is quite wrong: the
Mistral blows down the Rhône valley, and the Rhône doesn't flow to
anywhere near Spain or Italy, let alone any other "neighbouring
regions". We had a strong Mistral yesterday.

>
> Northerly traffic, however, goes northward:
> https://books.google.com/books?id=Rg3ylFhn1SkC&pg=PA69&dq=northerly
> While northerly traffic slowed to a stop, southbound traffic poured down ...
>
> There wouldn't be such a confusion in a Tamil, Malayalam or Japanese
> translation where these would be north-from wind vs. north-to traffic.

Nor in French ("vent du nord") or Spanish ("viento del norte").

>
> Why does a 'northerly' wind come from the north, but if I drive in a
> northerly direction I'm going north?
> Best Answer: It's an old seafarers' convention that is now implemented
> in international Search And Rescue (SAR) operations.
> https://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101123202234AAkfFkO

--
athel

[GordonD]

Does anybody actually use the term "in a northerly direction" apart
from policemen testifying in court?
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

[Anton Shepelev]

Gordon Davie:

> Does anybody actually use the term "in a northerly
> direction" apart from policemen testifying in court?

Sounds too vague to me, especially with the indefinite
article. It seems to be any direction with a positive
projection onto the direction to the North.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]

[Richard Tobin]

In article <20160425140326.5b5e58078aebfae9c73bbb37@g{oogle}mail.com>,

Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:

>Gordon Davie:
>
>> Does anybody actually use the term "in a northerly
>> direction" apart from policemen testifying in court?

>Sounds too vague to me, especially with the indefinite
>article. It seems to be any direction with a positive
>projection onto the direction to the North.

Gordon is thinking of stereotypical police statements in court such as
"I was proceeding along Castle Street in a northerly direction", where
"northerly" and "southerly" would be the only possibilities.

-- Richard

[Anton Shepelev]

Richard Tobin
> Anton Shepelev:

> > Gordon Davie:
> >
> > > Does anybody actually use the term "in a

> > > northerly direction" apart from policemen tes-
> > > tifying in court?
> >
> > Sounds too vague to me, especially with the in-

> > definite article. It seems to be any direction
> > with a positive projection onto the direction to
> > the North.
>

> Gordon is thinking of stereotypical police state-

> ments in court such as "I was proceeding along
> Castle Street in a northerly direction", where

> "northerly" and "southerly" would be the only pos-
> sibilities.

Thanks you. In this case 'northerly' is restric-
tive, so why the indefinite article?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 16:43:50 +0300, Anton Shepelev
<anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:

>Richard Tobin
>> Anton Shepelev:
>> > Gordon Davie:
>> >
>> > > Does anybody actually use the term "in a
>> > > northerly direction" apart from policemen tes-
>> > > tifying in court?
>> >
>> > Sounds too vague to me, especially with the in-
>> > definite article. It seems to be any direction
>> > with a positive projection onto the direction to
>> > the North.
>>
>> Gordon is thinking of stereotypical police state-
>> ments in court such as "I was proceeding along
>> Castle Street in a northerly direction", where
>> "northerly" and "southerly" would be the only pos-
>> sibilities.
>
>Thanks you. In this case 'northerly' is restric-
>tive, so why the indefinite article?

Possibly because "northerly" is imprecise. It doesn't mean "due North",
exactly to the North.

There can be many "northerly directions" from one place. "A northerly
direction" retains that imprecision. It means "A direction that is/was
northerly".

A person can walk along a road or a path in a northerly direction
without ever going exactly North.

The use of the indirect article is usual in such phrases:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/northerly

northerly

1 In a northward position or direction:
[as adjective]:

"he set off in a northerly direction"

"As the hurricane itself passes through, what we seem to now be
getting is the wind almost blowing from the west to east, and then
in a northerly direction, which is just the opposite of what we've
been getting up to now."

"The Ox Mountains stretch from Foxford in east Mayo right through
south Sligo in a northerly direction towards Ballysadare Bay and
provides a home for approximately 30,000 hill ewes." [1]

"The path runs from the A4 Marlborough-Beckhampton road by the
Thames water pumping station at Clatford and runs in a northerly
direction to Manton House Stables."

[1] That refers to the Ox Mountains going in "a northerly direction".
The Wikipedia article says:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ox_Mountains

The mountains begin immediately southwest of Ballysadare, and run
west-southwest for some forty miles to the boundary of County Mayo,

If you start from the other end, the mountains run east-northeast.
The general direction is more from west to east or east to west,
although one end is north of the other.

A compass rose showing west-southwest (WSW), east-northeast (ENE) and
other points:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Compass_Rose_English_North.svg/237px-Compass_Rose_English_North.svg.png

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, April 24, 2016 at 11:46:37 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 8:54:02 AM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > A nor'easter is a storm (in the, er, northeastern US) that blows out of
> > the northeast, bringing cold air to New York and Philadelphia (etc.).
>
> One might be surprised to learn what a sou'wester is:-)
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sou'wester

Some kind of coat, I think.

> > It was Benjamin Franklin who discovered that they were the upper-left part
> > of an enormous counterclockwise storm system over the ocean, by
> > correlating > simultaneous weather reports from all over the Colonies.
> > (Quite an achievement, considering how long it took news to travel.)
>
> A most remarkable effort!
>
> "Systematics of a storm system" could be used to describe what causes a storm system to form and dissipate, what?

We have the much shorter and clearer word "meteorology." Not about meteors.

[Peter T. Daniels]

If you go north on a Manhattan avenue, you're not going north, but approximately
north-northeast. If the policeman was testifying under oath, and he said he
was "proceeding north(ward)," a desperate defense attorney could challenge
and impeach his testimony (_all_ of which would then have to be disregarded)
by pointing out that there are no north-south avenues in Manhattan. (A small
portion of St. Nicholas Ave. may align with a longitude line where it deviates
from the grid in one of the mountainous areas.)

[Anton Shepelev]

Peter Duncanson:
> Anton Shepelev:
> > Richard Tobin:

> >
> > > Gordon is thinking of stereotypical police

> > > statements in court such as "I was proceeding

> > > along Castle Street in a northerly direction",
> > > where "northerly" and "southerly" would be the

> > > only possibilities.
> >
> > Thanks you. In this case 'northerly' is re-
> > strictive, so why the indefinite article?

>
> Possibly because "northerly" is imprecise. It
> doesn't mean "due North", exactly to the North.
>
> There can be many "northerly directions" from one

> place. "A northerly direction" retains that impre-
> cision. It means "A direction that is/was norther-

> ly".
>
> A person can walk along a road or a path in a
> northerly direction without ever going exactly
> North.

So, if the end of a road is approximately to North-
West of its beginning, one can say either that he
was walking in it in a northerly or in a westerly
direction without change of meaning?

[Katy Jennison]

Yes. Generally speaking, if if he's on Main Road, there will only be
two possible directions in which he can be walking. If in doubt,
consulting a map will usually make clear which of the two it is.

--
Katy Jennison

[Dingbat]

That wouldn't fly in New York City. From the Empire State Building, if you're walking in a northerly direction, you're going toward Times Square and whereas you're walking in a westerly direction, you're going toward the Hudson river.

It wouldn't fly in Austin, TX either, where NW Austin is directly to the north of Central Austin and to the west of N Austin.

In both these places, canonical north is different from north on the compass.

[Peter T. Daniels]

The first part is false. From the ESB, the only possibilities are "north" up
Fifth Avenue and "west" along 34th or 33rd St. Walking up Fifth Avenue, you'd
never know Times Square was nearby; it's two long, long blocks west, along
Seventh Avenue.

You could also walk "south" or "east" on the streets named, but they're not
relevant to the problem.

[Anton Shepelev]

I wrote posthaste:

> So, if the end of a road is approximately to

> NorthWest of its beginning, one can say either

> that he was walking in it in a northerly or in a
> westerly direction without change of meaning?

and with mistakes of course. The impersonal 'one'
is always 'one' and never 'he'. 'Along' is probably
better than 'in', although it may denote a course
parallel to that of the road. What would be the
best preposition?

[Robert Bannister]

On 25/04/2016 9:43 PM, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Richard Tobin
>> Anton Shepelev:
>>> Gordon Davie:
>>>
>>>> Does anybody actually use the term "in a
>>>> northerly direction" apart from policemen tes-
>>>> tifying in court?
>>>
>>> Sounds too vague to me, especially with the in-
>>> definite article. It seems to be any direction
>>> with a positive projection onto the direction to
>>> the North.
>>
>> Gordon is thinking of stereotypical police state-
>> ments in court such as "I was proceeding along
>> Castle Street in a northerly direction", where
>> "northerly" and "southerly" would be the only pos-
>> sibilities.
>
> Thanks you. In this case 'northerly' is restric-
> tive, so why the indefinite article?
>

Because more than one road leads north.

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-04-25 18:25:14 +0000, Anton Shepelev said:

> I wrote posthaste:
>
>> So, if the end of a road is approximately to
>> NorthWest of its beginning, one can say either
>> that he was walking in it in a northerly or in a
>> westerly direction without change of meaning?
>
> and with mistakes of course. The impersonal 'one'
> is always 'one' and never 'he'.

That's cetainly true for British English, but I have the impression
that American English allows "he" to refer back to "one": I always
notice it because it seems wrong to me.

> 'Along' is probably
> better than 'in', although it may denote a course
> parallel to that of the road. What would be the
> best preposition?


--

athel

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Peter Duncanson [BrE] skrev:

>>> A person can walk along a road or a path in a
>>> northerly direction without ever going exactly
>>> North.

Anton Shepelev skrev:

>> So, if the end of a road is approximately to
>> NorthWest of its beginning, one can say either
>> that he was walking in it in a northerly or in a
>> westerly direction without change of meaning?

> and with mistakes of course. The impersonal 'one'
> is always 'one' and never 'he'.

But in your text "he" does not refer to "one". "He" refers to the
person in Peter's text, and "one"refers to those that comment the
person's situation.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Peter T. Daniels]

Maybe he intended them to be co-referential.

(And no, "northerly" doesn't mean 'northwest'.)

[Anton Shepelev]

Peter Duncanson:

There can be many "northerly directions" from one

place. "A northerly direction" retains that im-
precision. It means "A direction that is/was
northerly".

Anton Shepelev:

So, if the end of a road is approximately to

North-West of its beginning, one can say either

that he was walking in it in a northerly or in a
westerly direction without change of meaning?

[...]

and with mistakes of course. The impersonal
'one' is always 'one' and never 'he'.

Bertel Lund Hansen:

But in your text "he" does not refer to "one".
"He" refers to the person in Peter's text, and
"one" refers to those that comment the person's
situation.

Yours is the only correct interpretation of my sen-
tence, but I did not intend it that way. My "one"
is the general person relating his own movement.

[Anton Shepelev]

Robert Bannister:
> Anton Shepelev:
> > Richard Tobin:

> >
> > > Gordon is thinking of stereotypical police

> > > statements in court such as "I was proceeding

> > > along Castle Street in a northerly direction",
> > > where "northerly" and "southerly" would be the

> > > only possibilities.
> >
> > Thanks you. In this case 'northerly' is re-
> > strictive, so why the indefinite article?

>
> Because more than one road leads north.

Then it is not restrictive... Which article would
you use in the following dialog:

-- I was proceeding along Castle Street.
-- In which direction?
-- In a/the northerly one.

Or is it so unnatural that no native speaker would
say it?

[Richard Tobin]

In article <20160426234733.e119...@gmail.com>,

Anton Shepelev <anto...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Then it is not restrictive... Which article would
>you use in the following dialog:
>
> -- I was proceeding along Castle Street.
> -- In which direction?
> -- In a/the northerly one.

"a"

>Or is it so unnatural that no native speaker would
>say it?

No-one would say it in casual speech, except humorously. It's the
pseudo-formal language of bureaucratic reports.

(I mean in that particular context. It would be idiomatic to say that
in Edinburgh the winds generally blow from a westerly direction,
though "from the west" would be more straightforward.)

-- Richard

[Robert Bannister]

On 27/04/2016 4:47 AM, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Robert Bannister:
>> Anton Shepelev:
>>> Richard Tobin:
>>>
>>>> Gordon is thinking of stereotypical police
>>>> statements in court such as "I was proceeding
>>>> along Castle Street in a northerly direction",
>>>> where "northerly" and "southerly" would be the
>>>> only possibilities.
>>>
>>> Thanks you. In this case 'northerly' is re-
>>> strictive, so why the indefinite article?
>>
>> Because more than one road leads north.
>
> Then it is not restrictive... Which article would
> you use in the following dialog:
>
> -- I was proceeding along Castle Street.
> -- In which direction?
> -- In a/the northerly one.
>
> Or is it so unnatural that no native speaker would
> say it?
>

Logical, but I doubt anyone would say it, so I suppose "a --ly
direction" is a set phrase.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 at 4:47:32 PM UTC-4, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Robert Bannister:
> > Anton Shepelev:
> > > Richard Tobin:
> > >
> > > > Gordon is thinking of stereotypical police
> > > > statements in court such as "I was proceeding
> > > > along Castle Street in a northerly direction",
> > > > where "northerly" and "southerly" would be the
> > > > only possibilities.
> > >
> > > Thanks you. In this case 'northerly' is re-
> > > strictive, so why the indefinite article?
> >
> > Because more than one road leads north.
>
> Then it is not restrictive... Which article would
> you use in the following dialog:
>
> -- I was proceeding along Castle Street.
> -- In which direction?
> -- In a/the northerly one.
>
> Or is it so unnatural that no native speaker would
> say it?

The latter.

If a town's grid is laid out at 45 deg. to the compass points, some locution
will evolve for referring to the directions compactly.

[Dingbat]

On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 8:40:25 AM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> If a town's grid is laid out at 45 deg. to the compass points, some
> locution will evolve for referring to the directions compactly.

Sanskrit is touted as having 8 absolute lateral directions in 2 dimensions (8 points of a compass as it were) and a bunch of relative (to the observer) directions in 3 dimensions.
http://www.acharya.gen.in:8080/sanskrit/sans.php?lnum=4&pnum=7

[Dingbat]

I've seen relative directions used by world war pilots, as in "Jerry at 2 o-clock". On the clock, English has 12 lateral directions and pilots surely had a way to say Jerry was at various declinations including above or below. On the compass, the direction of Manhattan avenues, NNE & SSW are two of 16 points. So, Sanskrit chauvinists shouldn't be crowing so much about having more directions.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Until recently, Manhattan street atlases had the avenues running vertically.
But the new computerized cartography is so stupid that Manhattan is now
shown using the orientation to the wider world, so that it takes more pages
and is cockeyed.

This isn't a problem in Chicago, but it will be a problem in any city that
oriented its grid to a coastline (sea or river).

[Charles Bishop]

In article <3c9ed9f1-7f4b-4d69...@googlegroups.com>,

"Jerry at 2 o'clock high" would give relative location in three
dimensions.

--
charles

[Katy Jennison]

"Warm wet Westerlies" is a not uncommon phase characterising the
prevailing winds here.

--
Katy Jennison

[Katy Jennison]

And having sent that, not an hour later I saw a letter in our local
paper which included this sentence: "When the North Westerlies prevail
our air is much cleaner".

--
Katy Jennison

[Anton Shepelev]

Dingbat:

> Sanskrit is touted as having 8 absolute lateral
> directions in 2 dimensions (8 points of a compass

> as it were) and a bunch of relative (to the ob-

> server) directions in 3 dimensions.
>
> http://www.acharya.gen.in:8080/sanskrit/sans.php?lnum=4&pnum=7
>
> I've seen relative directions used by world war
> pilots, as in "Jerry at 2 o-clock". On the clock,

> English has 12 lateral directions and pilots sure-
> ly had a way to say Jerry was at various declina-

> tions including above or below. On the compass,
> the direction of Manhattan avenues, NNE & SSW are
> two of 16 points. So, Sanskrit chauvinists

> shouldn't be crowing so much about having more di-
> rections.

Do not formget that Saint Script had enormously
large and infinitesimally small time units:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_units_of_measurement

[GordonD]

Unless a road runs exactly east-west, and assuming it's reasonably
straight, one end must be further north than the other. It would seem
to me that if you end up at that end, you have been walking in a
northerly direction, even if it's more north-west. At least it makes it
clear what way you were going.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

[GordonD]

And of course "Watch your six," meaning behind you.

[Peter T. Daniels]

That would describe Manhattan streets. No one says they go north or in a
northerly direction on 42nd St. even though when they walk west on it
they're actually going west-northwest.