Mike Barnes -- Stockport accent?
Iain Farquhar
The recent thread on "Are You Being Served", where there was some
discussion about whether Mrs. Slocombe had a Manchester or Lancashire
accent brings up an interesting point that Mike Barnes, being a
resident of Stockport, may be able to help me with.
I lived in Cheadle, a suburb of Manchester, and right next to
Stockport, from the age of 4 till I was 10.5 years old. My mother
always insisted that the people there had Lancashire accents (although
Cheadle was in Cheshire in those days). Then again, my mother was no
linguist! So, do people in Stockport and Cheadle have Lancashire,
Manchester, or Cheshire accents, or something else entirely?
As for myself, my mother insisted that I speak with an RP accent at
home (she being from the upper middle class originally - my
grandfather played the oboe in the Liverpool Philharmonic and the
Halle Orchestra). When I went to school I soon figured out that
wouldn't get me any friends, so I modified my accent in school. It
was really quite simple, I merely changed the way I pronounced my
"U"s. In the north of England, the word bus is pronounced with the
same u as put. I didn't even have to drop my aitches.
Another boy, whose father was the local head of the Electricity Board,
attended Cheadle Primary School for a couple of years and never caught
on how to be accepted. I was the only other kid who would have
anything to do with him because of his RP accent. Dad soon gave up on
this social experiment, and sent him to the local private school.
When I got to the US, it took me about two years to get tired of
people noticing my accent, so at the age of 12 I went on a crash
course to Americanize my accent. Those rhotic r's were the first
thing on the menu!
Iain
Timothy Hunt
In article <342ab7bf...@news.primenet.com>,
Iain Farquhar <far...@primenet.com> wrote:
>When I got to the US, it took me about two years to get tired of
>people noticing my accent, so at the age of 12 I went on a crash
>course to Americanize my accent. Those rhotic r's were the first
>thing on the menu!
My brother has relatively recently moved to California. His Californian
girlfriend has been helping him to adapt his accent. On a trip back
to the UK this month for my other brother's wedding, she was telling
me about his attempts to learn the rhotic R, and found that he
occasionaly put one in where there shouldn't be, most notably
in "idea".
My theory is that as an RP speaker (or something close, anyway), he was
non-rhotic, but would use linking r. E.g. he would say /fO:/ for "for" but
/fO: 'rEv@/ for "for ever" ("for [r]ever")
To become rhotic, I surmise that he subconsconsciously learnt the rule
"every word where I would use a linking r in appropriate context,
now needs that r in all contexts".
That would, if correctly applied, provide a reasonable transition to
rhoticising his accent.
However, a feature also common in many RP speakers is the intrusive r.
This is where the word itself has no r, but ends in a vowel sound that
also occurs in non-rhotic -r words. When said in a context that
for a -r word would provide a linking r, an intrusive r is pronounced.
"Law", for example, is pronounced /lO:/ and thus rhymes with "for".
"Law and order", for many RP spekaers would intrude an r to
pronounce it as /lO: r@nd O:d@/ ("law [r]and order")
"Idea" is another such word, rhyming in RP with "fear", and
producing an intrusive r in appropriate contexts.
So, the modified rule he seems to have learnt is "every word
where I would use a linking _or intrusive_ r in appropriate context,
now needs that r in all contexts".
Why would this be?
When speaking you do not consider the spelling of the words, only the sounds.
"Law" and "for" rhyme for him, as do "idea" and "fear". There
is no difference for him by which he can distinguish when to rhoticise
the word, except when people pick him up on it.
His girlfriend, on the other hand, learnt naturally by imitation, and has
not had to modify anything, so does not falsely rhoticise "idea" or "law".
I would be interested, Iain, to hear if you had any similar experiences
when you learned to rhoticise your speech.
[posted and mailed]
Timothy
Larry Krakauer
Timothy Hunt wrote:
>
> In article <342ab7bf...@news.primenet.com>,
> Iain Farquhar <far...@primenet.com> wrote:
> >When I got to the US, it took me about two years to get tired of
> >people noticing my accent, so at the age of 12 I went on a crash
> >course to Americanize my accent. Those rhotic r's were the first
> >thing on the menu!
>
> My brother has relatively recently moved to California. His Californian
> girlfriend has been helping him to adapt his accent. On a trip back
> to the UK this month for my other brother's wedding, she was telling
> me about his attempts to learn the rhotic R, and found that he
> occasionaly put one in where there shouldn't be, most notably
> in "idea".
This intrusive "r" is a major feature of the Boston (Massachusetts,
USA) accent. There's a hysterical recorded message in area code
617 that goes "When dialing outside your airier code (/eIri@r koUd/)
you must first dial a '1' ...".
Then there was a student who was asked by his teacher to spell
/kOr'i@/ ("Korea"). The student replied "K-o-r-e-a".
The teacher said, "Are you making fun of me?" The student,
who was genuinely mystified, asked what word the teacher had
in mind. The teacher answered, "Why, 'c-a-r-e-e-r',
of course."
The student thought a bit, and then asked, "But then how would
you pronounce 'K-o-r-e-a'?" The teacher replied, "/ka'ri@r/
('Career'), of course.".
--
Larry Krakauer (lar...@kronos.com)
Mike Barnes
In alt.usage.english, Iain Farquhar <far...@primenet.com> spake
thuswise:
>The recent thread on "Are You Being Served", where there was some
>discussion about whether Mrs. Slocombe had a Manchester or Lancashire
>accent brings up an interesting point that Mike Barnes, being a
>resident of Stockport, may be able to help me with.
I'll try, but I'm not a native of Stockport. A friend of mine who puts
in an appearance in a.u.e from time to time is a native, and is
extremely knowledgeable about local matters. Perhaps he'll respond as
well.
>I lived in Cheadle, a suburb of Manchester, and right next to
>Stockport, from the age of 4 till I was 10.5 years old.
> My mother
>always insisted that the people there had Lancashire accents (although
>Cheadle was in Cheshire in those days). Then again, my mother was no
>linguist! So, do people in Stockport and Cheadle have Lancashire,
>Manchester, or Cheshire accents, or something else entirely?
All of those, and more. I wouldn't like to make any categoric statement
about the distribution in Cheadle, other than to say that it being a
relatively prosperous suburb, there seem to be quite a few well-spoken
middle-class accents - sort of RP with a vague northernness - which many
(especially from North Manchester and Lancashire) would call a
"Cheshire" accent. And relatively few Lancashire accents, because
Cheadle is in the south of the Greater Manchester area.
>As for myself, my mother insisted that I speak with an RP accent at
>home (she being from the upper middle class originally - my
>grandfather played the oboe in the Liverpool Philharmonic and the
>Halle Orchestra). When I went to school I soon figured out that
>wouldn't get me any friends, so I modified my accent in school. It
>was really quite simple, I merely changed the way I pronounced my
>"U"s. In the north of England, the word bus is pronounced with the
>same u as put. I didn't even have to drop my aitches.
A lot depends on the school you go to. There are many private schools
in the area where conformity would have required you suppress the local
features of your accent.
>Another boy, whose father was the local head of the Electricity Board,
>attended Cheadle Primary School for a couple of years and never caught
>on how to be accepted. I was the only other kid who would have
>anything to do with him because of his RP accent. Dad soon gave up on
>this social experiment, and sent him to the local private school.
It is interesting that many authorities regard RP as "most respected"
and "widely accepted", when clearly there are *many* circumstances where
this is not the case.
>When I got to the US, it took me about two years to get tired of
>people noticing my accent, so at the age of 12 I went on a crash
>course to Americanize my accent. Those rhotic r's were the first
>thing on the menu!
Most Brits that I know in the USA regard their accents as assets - not
because they think there's anything inherently superior about them (in
fact they are demonstrably inferior clarity-wise), but because of the
way people react. They all emigrated as adults, and at 12.5 years of
age they might well have thought differently.
I imagine you still have to spell out your name a lot.
[I'm off to Massachusetts tomorrow - no more from me for a week]
--
-- Mike Barnes, Stockport, England.
-- If you post a response to Usenet, please *don't* send me a copy by e-mail.
Iain Farquhar
On 26 Sep 1997 12:18:16 +0100, Timothy Hunt
<eng...@no.spam.timothy.org.uk> wrote:
>So, the modified rule he seems to have learnt is "every word
>where I would use a linking _or intrusive_ r in appropriate context,
>now needs that r in all contexts".
>
>Why would this be?
>
>When speaking you do not consider the spelling of the words, only the sounds.
>"Law" and "for" rhyme for him, as do "idea" and "fear". There
>is no difference for him by which he can distinguish when to rhoticise
>the word, except when people pick him up on it.
>
>His girlfriend, on the other hand, learnt naturally by imitation, and has
>not had to modify anything, so does not falsely rhoticise "idea" or "law".
>
>I would be interested, Iain, to hear if you had any similar experiences
>when you learned to rhoticise your speech.
I seem to recall that I had the same problem. It lasted for less than
a year though. This being the heighth of the Bay of Pigs/Cuban
Missile Crisis, Cuba was the word I mangled most. Then again,
President Kennedy had the same problem.
Iain
John Magne Trane
As an aside
Wasn't there an example of this in Jurassic Park (I)?
Doyouthinkshesaurus
But weren't those kids American?
>However, a feature also common in many RP speakers is the intrusive r.
>This is where the word itself has no r, but ends in a vowel sound that
>also occurs in non-rhotic -r words. When said in a context that
>for a -r word would provide a linking r, an intrusive r is pronounced.
>
>"Law", for example, is pronounced /lO:/ and thus rhymes with "for".
>"Law and order", for many RP spekaers would intrude an r to
>pronounce it as /lO: r@nd O:d@/ ("law [r]and order")
Cheers!
JMT
--
__ John Magne Trane joh...@stud.cs.uit.no
[]_.-' (Q_,._
`(*)[27]___(*)Z> Think vectors. Take the great attitude, gratitude.
Iain Farquhar
On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:49:19 +0100, Mike Barnes <mi...@exodus.co.uk>
wrote:
>All of those, and more. I wouldn't like to make any categoric statement
>about the distribution in Cheadle, other than to say that it being a
>relatively prosperous suburb, there seem to be quite a few well-spoken
>middle-class accents - sort of RP with a vague northernness - which many
>(especially from North Manchester and Lancashire) would call a
>"Cheshire" accent. And relatively few Lancashire accents, because
>Cheadle is in the south of the Greater Manchester area.
You know, you're one of many that have made the comment to me about
Cheadle being prosperous. There must have been some demographic shift
in the 38 years since I left. It was middle class, but definately at
the lower end of the spectrum when I lived there. I think a lot of
Mancunians had moved there during the War to escape the Blitz.
>
>Most Brits that I know in the USA regard their accents as assets - not
>because they think there's anything inherently superior about them (in
>fact they are demonstrably inferior clarity-wise), but because of the
>way people react. They all emigrated as adults, and at 12.5 years of
>age they might well have thought differently.
I was in the South -- xenophobia was still alive and well!
>I imagine you still have to spell out your name a lot.
I did get rid of my hyphenated last name -- even harder to use in the
US. Iain and Ian were totally unknown here when I moved, but thanks
to British actors, authors, and rock stars, Ian at least is much more
common now. The only other Iain's I've run into turned out to be
immigrants too.
Iain
nob...@hursley.ibm.com
joh...@stud.cs.uit.no (John Magne Trane) wrote:
>
>As an aside
>Wasn't there an example of this in Jurassic Park (I)?
>
>Doyouthinkshesaurus
>
>But weren't those kids American?
>
>>However, a feature also common in many RP speakers is the intrusive r.
>>This is where the word itself has no r, but ends in a vowel sound that
>>also occurs in non-rhotic -r words. When said in a context that
>>for a -r word would provide a linking r, an intrusive r is pronounced.
>>
>>"Law", for example, is pronounced /lO:/ and thus rhymes with "for".
>>"Law and order", for many RP spekaers would intrude an r to
>>pronounce it as /lO: r@nd O:d@/ ("law [r]and order")
>
An observation as an RP speaker (with northern UK overtones); whilst I
wouldn't deny I've heard this, the intruded r stands out a mile and
doesn't sound "right" - slightly lazy (or, to be slightly non-PC but
honest, uneducated). Akin to someone saying "might of", rather than
"might have".
- Ian Noble
David Archibald
The intrusive r is not just a feature peculiar to RP. It is noticable
in many Britons' speech patterns regardless of their accent.
Regards, David A
femal...@sprintmail.com
David Archibald wrote:
>
> The intrusive r is not just a feature peculiar to RP. It is noticable
> in many Britons' speech patterns regardless of their accent.
This is not intended as a correction, just an amplification:
The fourteenth edition of the English Pronouncing Dictionary (Daniel
Jones; this edition edited by A. C. Gimson) addresses the intrusive "r"
as a feature of RP: "Although this usage has been common in
South-Eastern England for at least two centuries, it can be regarded as
optional."
It never sounds "right" to me, but it does seem to have the force of
long usage behind it.
femalewits
Mike Page
Albert Marshall wrote:
> I remember hearing Margaret Thatcher referred to as "Laura Norder", due
> to her preoccupations.
Then there's those other political characters:
"Solomon Binding", as in Solomon Binding agreement with the unions; and
the dead Russian who is always going to help the party behind in the
opinion polls, viz. "the late Serge".
--
Mike Page
Remove the amphibian from my return address for e-mail.
Michelle Malkin
CDa...@webtv.net (David Archibald) wrote:
>The intrusive r is not just a feature peculiar to RP. It is noticable
>in many Britons' speech patterns regardless of their accent.
>Regards, David A
This is quite obvious in Paul McCartney's version of "Til There Was You" on one
of the early Beatles albums. "There were birds on the wing, but I never sawr
them winging"
Mickey
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Timothy Hunt
In article <621trt$kqf$1...@talia.mad.ibernet.es>,
Ross Howard <rhowa...@mx3.redestb.es> wrote:
>
>Ah, Sir Paul -- also responsible for "in this ever-changing world in
>which we live in".
Uh, no. Try "in this ever changing world in which we're livin'".
Timothy
Mike Mooney
> >
> >Ah, Sir Paul -- also responsible for "in this ever-changing world in
> >which we live in".
>
> Uh, no. Try "in this ever changing world in which we're livin'".
>
No, even that would still be wrong. I too thought it was 'in...in...in'
when I first heard it, but a closer listen reveals correct grammar:
"But IF this ever-changing world IN which we're livING..makes you give
in and cry...Live And Let Die...".
Mike
Ross Howard
malk...@mindspring.com (Michelle Malkin) wrote:
>CDa...@webtv.net (David Archibald) wrote:
>>The intrusive r is not just a feature peculiar to RP. It is noticable
>>in many Britons' speech patterns regardless of their accent.
>>Regards, David A
>This is quite obvious in Paul McCartney's version of "Til There Was You" on one
>of the early Beatles albums. "There were birds on the wing, but I never sawr
>them winging"
Ah, Sir Paul -- also responsible for "in this ever-changing world in
which we live in".
Ross Howard
>Mickey
>^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
[My e-mail address is spam-free]
Robert Lieblich
Mike Mooney wrote:
>
> > >
> > >Ah, Sir Paul -- also responsible for "in this ever-changing world in
> > >which we live in".
> >
> >
>
> No, even that would still be wrong. I too thought it was 'in...in...in'
> when I first heard it, but a closer listen reveals correct grammar:
>
> "But IF this ever-changing world IN which we're livING..makes you give
> in and cry...Live And Let Die...".
Given the sheer loudness of so much rock music, Mondegreens are an
inevitable result. Consider, if nothing else, the variant guesses at
the lyrics of "Louie, Louie." In many albums the damage is ameliorated
by printing the lyrics (a crutch Sinatra never needed). I'll eschew
further animadversions on the quality of such lyrics.
Bob Lieblich
Rusty
In article <621trt$kqf$1...@talia.mad.ibernet.es>, rhowa...@mx3.redestb.es
wrote:
> malk...@mindspring.com (Michelle Malkin) wrote:
>
> >CDa...@webtv.net (David Archibald) wrote:
> >>The intrusive r is not just a feature peculiar to RP. It is noticable
> >>in many Britons' speech patterns regardless of their accent.
>
> >>Regards, David A
>
> >This is quite obvious in Paul McCartney's version of "Til There Was
You" on one
> >of the early Beatles albums. "There were birds on the wing, but I never sawr
> >them winging"
>
> Ah, Sir Paul -- also responsible for "in this ever-changing world in
> which we live in".
>
> Ross Howard
LIstening to song lirics is always very entertaining.
My favorite is "I DON'T have NO time for NO monkey business"
by Freddy Mercury.
Rusty
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[Mike Mooney:]
> > >Ah, Sir Paul -- also responsible for "in this ever-changing world
> > >in which we live in".
> >
>
> No, even that would still be wrong. I too thought it was
> 'in...in...in' when I first heard it, but a closer listen reveals
> correct grammar:
>
> "But IF this ever-changing world IN which we're livING..makes you
> give in and cry...Live And Let Die...".
That's how I understand it, but I just checked _Wings Over America_
and _Paul Is Live_, and it sounds to me like ``if this ever-changing
world in which we livin' '' [or ``... live in''].
--
Dave Harris
da...@cam.ac.uk
Keith C. Ivey
Robert Lieblich <lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>Rod wrote:
>>Robert Lieblich <lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>> > I'll eschew
>> >further animadversions on the quality of such lyrics.
>> >
>> Can you sing that last sentence? And if you think it matters what the
>> words of Louie Louie are, you're missing the point.
>> Awopbopaloobopalopbamboom!
>
>The sentence in question is a nearly perfect series of dactyls and
>probably could be set to music. If it was performed by a loud enough
>rock group, it would make at least as much sense as "Tutti Frutti - All
>Rootie." At least.
How do you interpret it as a series of dactyls? No dactylic stress
pattern sounds even slightly natural to me:
I'LL eschew FURther aNIMadverSIONS on the QUAlity OF such lyRICS.
i'll ESchew furTHER aniMADversions ON the quaLIty of SUCH lyrics.
i'll esCHEW further ANimadVERsions on THE qualiTY of such LYRics.
The last works the best, but changing it to something natural gives it
far too many unstressed syllables -- rather less than what I'd call
"nearly perfect":
i'll esCHEW further ANimadVERsions on the QUAlity of such LYRics.
Philip Glass might like it, if it were repeated sufficiently, but I
don't think it could be set to anything resembling a popular tune.
Keith C. Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org>
http://cpcug.org/user/kcivey/
Washington, DC