English English or American English
Andrew Banner
I am trying to get a feeling for what form of English people prefer to read
in publications.
A client has a international magazine that's about to be relaunched and is
trying to establish what people prefer.
Do you prefer American English?
Do you prefer English English?
How would you feel if a publication used articles from various quarters
without adjusting the English into one form?
Answers via email would be appreciated.
--
Andrew Banner
Director - Questrole Ltd
Lee Lester
Although it seems obvious that the spelling favoured/favored by the
majority of readers should be used, The Economist takes the view that
it is an international publications but is British based and therefore
uses UK spellings. It certainly has not harmed its circulation. Oh, the
Financial Times of London is also published in the USA and, I believe,
retains its British spellings.
Although US spellings are commonly found in Canada, the federal
government has opted, in most cases, at least, for those found in
Britain. That was boosted a year or two back by the Globe and Mail,
the country's only national newspaper, which changed from using many US
forms to those used in the UK even though Canadian Press, the national
domestic news agency favours/favors the 'or' suffix but not the 'er'
one. Don't ask me why.
Markus Laker
"Andrew Banner" <aba...@questrol.demon.co.uk>:
> I am trying to get a feeling for what form of English people prefer to read
> in publications.
>
> A client has a international magazine that's about to be relaunched and is
> trying to establish what people prefer.
>
> Do you prefer American English?
>
> Do you prefer English English?
I prefer English English. It's the version I'm most familiar and
comfortable with.
> How would you feel if a publication used articles from various quarters
> without adjusting the English into one form?
Confused. What happens when I encounter one of the many words, phrases
and constructions that have different meanings on either side of the
Atlantic? I would rather see all articles in one variety of English or
the other than see them jumbled up with no idea of what to expect.
Most Britons haven't spent years reading alt.usage.english, by the way,
and will be less familiar with American English than the people here.
They might misunderstand American English and never realise it. Whether
that actually matters depends on whether the publication in question is,
say, an in-flight magazine or a medical journal.
> Answers via email would be appreciated.
Can do. Posted and mailed.
Markus Laker.
--
If you quote me, I would appreciate an email copy of your article.
Signpoet
American English (and more is made of the differences, I think, than the
differences warrant) is familiar around the world, because of America's
size and influence, as well as America's preeminence in film and
television over the past forty years.
For example, I'm sure every British speaker knows what a "truck" is, but
few Americans know what a "lorry" is, not to mention "an articulated
lorry."
Then if we get into "pants" or "sidewalks" the situation becomes even
clearer.
I hope no one interprets this response as any kind of chauvinistic
vaunting, because that's not the way it is intended.
Connie Geller
Brian J Goggin
On 12 Jan 1997 18:39:17 GMT, sign...@aol.com (Signpoet) wrote:
>American English (and more is made of the differences, I think, than the
>differences warrant) is familiar around the world, because of America's
>size and influence, as well as America's preeminence in film and
>television over the past forty years.
>For example, I'm sure every British speaker knows what a "truck" is, but
>few Americans know what a "lorry" is, not to mention "an articulated
>lorry."
Isn't he that guy who painted matchstick figures in industrial scenes?
>Then if we get into "pants" or "sidewalks" the situation becomes even
>clearer.
Would you care to rephrase that?
bjg
JC Dill
On Wed, 08 Jan 1997 12:12:34 GMT, "Andrew Banner"
<aba...@questrol.demon.co.uk> expound upon: "English English or
American English"
>I am trying to get a feeling for what form of English people prefer to read
>in publications.
>
>A client has a international magazine that's about to be relaunched and is
>trying to establish what people prefer.
>
>Do you prefer American English?
>
>Do you prefer English English?
>
>How would you feel if a publication used articles from various quarters
>without adjusting the English into one form?
While either is acceptable, I expect a single publication to have a
single form. Failing that, I would appreciate geographic hints in the
title, for instance if a publication located in the US were to reprint
something from England, it would be useful to have the title indicate
that it was a reprint, first published in (title) in England in
(year).
<rant>
I love to read Dick Francis novels, and HATE it when they are
Americanized. The truck got 8 miles to the gallon of gas? It's in
ENGLAND for @%(^@)& sake, it is a Lorry, it got x Kilometers to y
Liters of Petrol, right?
</rant>
sigh.
jc
Brian J Goggin
On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:56:07 GMT, jcd...@ix.netcom.com (JC Dill)
wrote:
><rant>
>I love to read Dick Francis novels, and HATE it when they are
>Americanized. The truck got 8 miles to the gallon of gas? It's in
>ENGLAND for @%(^@)& sake, it is a Lorry, it got x Kilometers to y
>Liters of Petrol, right?
></rant>
I think "truck" is acceptable in the UK, but I'm not sure that our
British cousins have quite accepted kilometres and litres yet. I think
they're waiting until Tony Blair joins the Federal Europe and they can
wholeheartedly adopt Continental European ways all at once.
bjg
John Davies
In article <32dabc71...@news.concentric.net>, JC Dill
<jcd...@ix.netcom.com> writes
>I love to read Dick Francis novels, and HATE it when they are
>Americanized. The truck got 8 miles to the gallon of gas? It's in
>ENGLAND for @%(^@)& sake, it is a Lorry, it got x Kilometers to y
>Liters of Petrol, right?
probably diesel fuel) is now sold in litres, road distances are still
given in miles, and I'm pretty sure everyone still calculates their fuel
consumption in miles per gallon. The gallon is not the same as a US
gallon, though, but I guess you knew that.
I was surprised to find, when I lived in Germany, that the normal way of
calculating fuel consumption there is not km/litre, but litres/100 km.
So the smaller the figure, the better.
I entirely understand your rage at such absurd editing practices. I'm
trying to imagine how daft it might look in reverse - if Raymond
Chandler or Damon Runyon were put into British English, for example. I'm
laughing too much at the thought of it to try a few samples now, but
might return to the possibility later. Any other parodists out there
willing to have a go?
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
On that of which one cannot speak, one must remain silent. (Wittgenstein)
P. K. W. Tan
Brian J Goggin (b...@wordwrights.ie) wrote:
: >It's in
: >ENGLAND for @%(^@)& sake, it is a Lorry, it got x Kilometers to y
: >Liters of Petrol, right?
: I think "truck" is acceptable in the UK, but I'm not sure that our
: British cousins have quite accepted kilometres and litres yet. I think
: they're waiting until Tony Blair joins the Federal Europe and they can
: wholeheartedly adopt Continental European ways all at once.
: bjg
We use 'lorry' and 'truck' (as in 'pick-up truck', 'dumper truck') in
Singapore. An English person told me that lorries were big things,
and trucks were smaller things. Is this how other British people use
lorry and truck. Or is it that the cover term is 'truck', and within
trucks you can have 'lorries', 'pick-ups', etc.?
(Similarly, you can have the cover term 'biscuit', and within
biscuits you can have 'crackers', 'digestives', 'cookies', etc.)
Peter
Simon R. Hughes
Brian J Goggin wrote:
>
> On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:56:07 GMT, jcd...@ix.netcom.com (JC Dill)
> wrote:
>
> ><rant>
> >ENGLAND for @%(^@)& sake, it is a Lorry, it got x Kilometers to y
> >Liters of Petrol, right?
> ></rant>
>
> I think "truck" is acceptable in the UK, but I'm not sure that our
> British cousins have quite accepted kilometres and litres yet. I think
> they're waiting until Tony Blair joins the Federal Europe and they can
> wholeheartedly adopt Continental European ways all at once.
>
> bjg
Kilometres in the UK?? That is very new. The road signs are all in mph,
the speedometers of all vehicles are callibrated in mph with a smaller
km/h scale for use when on the continent, etc.
Only schools and petrol stations are promoting kilometres/
litres/ kilograms/ etc. Otherwise we have a bad case of doublethink -
being able to use both metric and British imperial scales
interchangeably.
--
•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
From the digits of: Simon R. Hughes
shu...@sn.no
Me transmitte sursum, Caledoni!
ººººººººººººººººººººººººººººººººººº
Lee Lester
>> An English person told me that lorries were big things, and trucks
>> were smaller things.
And in Noirth America, vans are often referred to as trucks.
Truly Donovan
P. K. W. Tan wrote:
>
> (Similarly, you can have the cover term 'biscuit', and within
> biscuits you can have 'crackers', 'digestives', 'cookies', etc.)
With rutabagas and haggis already raging in one corner and
biscuit/cookie/cracker about to break out here, can muffin/English
muffin/fairy cake/crumpet/scone/cupcake be far behind?
Did Bobby just step out of the shower?
For those who are perplexed by that last remark, in its final hours of
decline, the evening soap "Dallas," which had killed off a star at the
end of one season, decided to bring him back a year later by having him
step out of the shower, whereupon his wife realizes that the whole
previous season had been nothing more than a bad dream, a notion with
which many of us agreed.
--
Truly Donovan
"Industrial-strength SGML," Prentice Hall 1996
ISBN 0-13-216243-1
http://www.prenhall.com
Sina A. Muscati
> > >I love to read Dick Francis novels, and HATE it when they are
> > >Americanized. The truck got 8 miles to the gallon of gas? It's in
> > >ENGLAND for @%(^@)& sake, it is a Lorry, it got x Kilometers to y
> > >Liters of Petrol, right?
Kilometers (spelt 'kilometres' (the 'er' ending is an Americanism)) and
litres (again spelt litres) are still not commonly used in the UK. Of
course, then you'll have to account for the difference between the British
and the American gallon....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sina A. Muscati
First Year Biology
Ottawa, CANADA
Email address: samu...@chat.carleton.ca
John Nurick
On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:01:42 GMT, co...@zeus.bris.ac.uk (M. Murray)
wrote:
[snip]
>The Europeans talk about litres per
>100 km, and converting that into miles per gallon is the hardest mental
>arithmetic exercise I get confronted with.
The only nice thing about it is that the formula for the conversion is
exactly the same in either direction, so you don't have to remember
two conversion factors.
For everyday accuracy, you just divide the value you have into 282
(imperial gallons) or 226 (US gallons).
J
eda...@cts.com
In <5bokiv$a...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>, samu...@chat.carleton.ca (Sina A. Muscati) writes:
>> > >I love to read Dick Francis novels, and HATE it when they are
>> > >Americanized. The truck got 8 miles to the gallon of gas? It's in
>> > >ENGLAND for @%(^@)& sake, it is a Lorry, it got x Kilometers to y
>> > >Liters of Petrol, right?
>
>Kilometers (spelt 'kilometres' (the 'er' ending is an Americanism)) and
>litres (again spelt litres) are still not commonly used in the UK. Of
>course, then you'll have to account for the difference between the British
>and the American gallon....
This is one of the few Americinazations don't bother me (units of
measure). I don't want to have to break out the calculator and look
up the conversion factors to figure out what they are talking about.
This also applies to currencies. I have know idea what a Pound, Peso,
Yen, Rand, Rial, Rupee, Mark or an other than American Dollar buys. I
wouldn't mind seeing them all translated into Big Macs.
Edmond Dantes
eda...@cts.com
http://www.free.cts.com/crash/e/edantes
There's nothing wrong with New York city that couldn't be fixed with
neutron bombs.
Steve Lewin
In message <5bokiv$a...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>
samu...@chat.carleton.ca (Sina A. Muscati) writes:
> > > >I love to read Dick Francis novels, and HATE it when they are
> > > >Americanized. The truck got 8 miles to the gallon of gas? It's in
> > > >ENGLAND for @%(^@)& sake, it is a Lorry, it got x Kilometers to y
> > > >Liters of Petrol, right?
> Kilometers (spelt 'kilometres' (the 'er' ending is an Americanism)) and
> litres (again spelt litres) are still not commonly used in the UK. Of
> course, then you'll have to account for the difference between the British
> and the American gallon....
You ain't been to the UK recently if you think it possible to buy
petrol (gas ?) in anything but litres. But I'll give you the kilometres.
Nevertheless one could wonder why it is considered necessary to
Americanise (ize ?) British books for the US while us Brits get the
straight American versions. It can't be because publishers think that
we're much brighter and can handle AmE whereas the average American...
Nah, more likely it's because there aren't enough of us to bother about.
Steve
Brian J Goggin
On 18 Jan 1997 20:33:15 GMT, eda...@cts.com wrote:
[...]
>This is one of the few Americinazations don't bother me (units of
>measure). I don't want to have to break out the calculator and look
>up the conversion factors to figure out what they are talking about.
>This also applies to currencies. I have know idea what a Pound, Peso,
>Yen, Rand, Rial, Rupee, Mark or an other than American Dollar buys. I
>wouldn't mind seeing them all translated into Big Macs.
Didn't "The Economist" introduce such an index years ago?
bjg
Paul Rhodes
Steve Lewin <sle...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> > > >I love to read Dick Francis novels, and HATE it when they are
>> > > >Americanized. The truck got 8 miles to the gallon of gas? It's in
>> > > >ENGLAND for @%(^@)& sake, it is a Lorry, it got x Kilometers to y
>> > > >Liters of Petrol, right?
>
>> Kilometers (spelt 'kilometres' (the 'er' ending is an Americanism)) and
>> litres (again spelt litres) are still not commonly used in the UK. [...]
>You ain't been to the UK recently if you think it possible to buy
>petrol (gas ?) in anything but litres. But I'll give you the kilometres.
I may buy my petrol in litres, but I haven't the faintest idea how
many miles per litre my car can do. Since I'm a child of the metric
age and I think that way, I imagine most people still think in terms
of miles per gallon.
Back to the original quote, the truck could be a van rather than a
lorry. Maybe not if it only does 8mpg, though!
Paul
Mike Barnes
The dancing digits of "Sina A. Muscati" <samu...@chat.carleton.ca>
created this pronouncement in alt.usage.english...
>> > >I love to read Dick Francis novels, and HATE it when they are
>> > >Americanized. The truck got 8 miles to the gallon of gas? It's in
>> > >ENGLAND for @%(^@)& sake, it is a Lorry, it got x Kilometers to y
>> > >Liters of Petrol, right?
>
>Kilometers (spelt 'kilometres' (the 'er' ending is an Americanism)) and
>litres (again spelt litres) are still not commonly used in the UK.
What?
British petrol and diesel pumps are all graduated in litres, and have
been for many years (decades?), by law. I have no idea how many gallons
my car's tank holds, but I am well aware of the number of litres.
Look on the shelves of a supermarket and every fluid measurment will be
in litres or ml, possibly (but not usually) with an Imperial equivalent
following.
I assure you that "litres" are commonly used in the UK.
--
-- Mike Barnes, Stockport, England.
-- If you post a response to Usenet, please *don't* send me a copy by e-mail.
Evan Kirshenbaum
In article <199701182...@zetnet.co.uk>,
Steve Lewin <sle...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Nevertheless one could wonder why it is considered necessary to
>Americanise (ize ?) British books for the US while us Brits get the
>straight American versions. It can't be because publishers think that
>we're much brighter and can handle AmE whereas the average
>American...
>
>Nah, more likely it's because there aren't enough of us to bother
>about.
That's probably largely it, combined with the fact that they figure
that you see so many American movies (an TV shows?) that you're
already familiar with American vocabulary. When it comes to print,
these are the only things that people have much trouble with. The
differences in punctuation are negligible, as are differences in
spelling (with the notable exception of "gaol", which I always trip
over). Mostly, your spelling, punctuation, and the understandable
part of the different vocabulary just looks "quaint". :-)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Sometimes I think the surest sign
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |that intelligent life exists
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |elsewhere in the universe is that
|none of it has tried to contact us.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Calvin
(415)857-7572
Duncan Gibson
Steve Lewin <sle...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
SL>
SL> Nevertheless one could wonder why it is considered necessary
SL> to Americanise (ize ?) British books for the US while us Brits
SL> get the straight American versions.
Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> replied:
EK>
EK> [...], combined with the fact that they figure that you see
EK> so many American movies (an TV shows?) that you're already
EK> familiar with American vocabulary.
By coincidence I just heard of BBC Radio 4 this morning that US
programmes only accounted for 10% of those broadcast on the
terrestrial channels in the UK last year, which is the lowest figure
for years. I don't remember whether it was 10% by number, or by total
time on air.
However, seeing American movies and TV shows may provide audiences
in the UK with an insight into American English vocabulary, but it
doesn't provide them with the spelling.
I must admit that I have been slogging through a lot of technical
books in the past year, most of them from the US, and most of them
to do with the software industry, and although there are some words
which just glare at me as being "wrong" - as far as UK English is
concerned - it is starting to have an effect on my own spelling,
especially double consonants. (In UK English is it 'orphanned' or
'orphaned'? Both now look "wrong" to me!)
Cheers
Duncan
This is my article, not my employer's, with my opinions and my disclaimer!
--
Duncan Gibson, ESTEC/YCV, Postbus 299, 2200AG Noordwijk, The Netherlands
Tel: +31 71 5654013 Fax: +31 71 5656142 Email: dun...@yc.estec.esa.nl
Mike Barnes
The dancing digits of Duncan Gibson <dun...@yc.estec.esa.nl> created
this pronouncement in alt.usage.english...
>By coincidence I just heard of BBC Radio 4 this morning that US
>programmes only accounted for 10% of those broadcast on the
>terrestrial channels in the UK last year, which is the lowest figure
>for years. I don't remember whether it was 10% by number, or by total
>time on air.
I think it was by the viewer-hour. Looking at the schedules gives an
exaggerated impression of the proportion. Peak-time transmissions are
almost entirely British. Off-peak transmissions contain a higher
proportion of imported material.
Jon Robert Crofoot
Mike Barnes <mi...@exodus.co.uk> wrote:
>The dancing digits of Duncan Gibson <dun...@yc.estec.esa.nl> created
>this pronouncement in alt.usage.english...
>>By coincidence I just heard of BBC Radio 4 this morning that US
>>programmes only accounted for 10% of those broadcast on the
>>terrestrial channels in the UK last year, which is the lowest figure
>>for years. I don't remember whether it was 10% by number, or by total
>>time on air.
>
>I think it was by the viewer-hour. Looking at the schedules gives an
>exaggerated impression of the proportion. Peak-time transmissions are
>almost entirely British. Off-peak transmissions contain a higher
>proportion of imported material.
>
>
British influence on American TV? In addition to the many
dramas and comedies on PBS, British-made nature
documentaries seem to show up a lot on the Discovery and
TLC channels. And of course, whenever an advertiser wants
to really puff up a product, he'll hire a True Brit to
supply a rich accent to the voice-over. Imagine -- a man
with a British accent, pushing a Japanese automobile!
Brian J Goggin
On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:17:51 -0700, Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com>
wrote:
[...]
>If the San Andreas Fault were a chasm, it wouldn't be giving us nearly
>the concern that it does. It is its very lack of chasmness that is
>worrisome.
Would 'chasmitude' be acceptable?
bjg
Earle D. Jones
In article <32ECDA...@lunemere.com>, Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com>
wrote:
>If I had gone that direction, I would have gone all the way to
>"chasmitudity."
>
======
Isn't *chasmoscopy* or perhaps *chasmicity* the correct word here?
earle
=====
__
__/\_\
/\_\/_/
\/_/\_\ earle
\/_/ jones
Truly Donovan
Brian J Goggin wrote:
>
> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:17:51 -0700, Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com>
> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >If the San Andreas Fault were a chasm, it wouldn't be giving us nearly
> >the concern that it does. It is its very lack of chasmness that is
> >worrisome.
>
> Would 'chasmitude' be acceptable?
If I had gone that direction, I would have gone all the way to
"chasmitudity."
--
Mike Dana
Brian J Goggin wrote:
>
> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:39:47 -0700, Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Brian J Goggin wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:17:51 -0700, Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> >If the San Andreas Fault were a chasm, it wouldn't be giving us nearly
> >> >the concern that it does. It is its very lack of chasmness that is
> >> >worrisome.
> >>
> >> Would 'chasmitude' be acceptable?
> >
> >If I had gone that direction, I would have gone all the way to
> >"chasmitudity."
>
>
> bjg
I'd be inclined to take the "Calvin" approach: 'Chasmogrificatiousness'
--
Mike Dana
Everett, Washington, U.S.A.
Views expressed by me are mine, not my employer's.
"Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt" -- Julius Ceasar
Truly Donovan
Jon Robert Crofoot wrote:
>
> Which prompts the question: Has a study been made of
> British influence on American TV?
After the howler on Masterpiece Theater tonight, their influence might
be somewhat diminished. In the last part of "The Politician's Wife,"
they have Matlock, the supposedly great orator, speechifying about a
rift in the party; he describes it as "a chasm as wide as the San
Andreas Fault."
If the San Andreas Fault were a chasm, it wouldn't be giving us nearly
the concern that it does. It is its very lack of chasmness that is
worrisome.
--
Brian J Goggin
>Brian J Goggin wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:17:51 -0700, Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> >If the San Andreas Fault were a chasm, it wouldn't be giving us nearly
>> >the concern that it does. It is its very lack of chasmness that is
>> >worrisome.
>>
Jon Robert Crofoot
Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> wrote:
>Brian J Goggin wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:17:51 -0700, Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> >If the San Andreas Fault were a chasm, it wouldn't be giving us nearly
>> >the concern that it does. It is its very lack of chasmness that is
>> >worrisome.
>>
>> Would 'chasmitude' be acceptable?
>
>If I had gone that direction, I would have gone all the way to
>"chasmitudity."
>
Chasmasiousness... Take that!
Mike Barnes
The dancing digits of Jon Robert Crofoot <Bob.C...@postoffice.worldne
t.att.net> created this pronouncement in alt.usage.english...
>Which prompts the question: Has a study been made of
>dramas and comedies on PBS, British-made nature
>documentaries seem to show up a lot on the Discovery and
>TLC channels. And of course, whenever an advertiser wants
>to really puff up a product, he'll hire a True Brit to
>supply a rich accent to the voice-over. Imagine -- a man
>with a British accent, pushing a Japanese automobile!
Actually my favourite Brit-on-US-TV was Dudley Moore promoting [a brand
of] sherry by explaining that in England it is usually served in large
glasses on the rocks. Not.
John Cowan
Truly Donovan wrote:
> In the last part of "The Politician's Wife,"
> they have Matlock, the supposedly great orator, speechifying about a
> rift in the party; he describes it as "a chasm as wide as the San
> Andreas Fault."
Brit 1: "I see the Americans have taken umbrage."
Brit 2: "The deuce they have! --- Where is Umbrage, anyway?"
:-)
--
John Cowan co...@ccil.org
e'osai ko sarji la lojban
Keith C. Ivey
Mike Barnes <mi...@exodus.co.uk> wrote:
>Actually my favourite Brit-on-US-TV was Dudley Moore promoting [a brand
>of] sherry by explaining that in England it is usually served in large
>glasses on the rocks. Not.
Don't forget the ads for the automatic iced-tea maker that had a
English-accented voiceover and "Rule Britannia" as background
music. The English are fans of tea, but certainly not the iced
variety.
Keith C. Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org> Washington, DC
Contributing Editor/Webmaster
The Editorial Eye <http://www.eeicom.com/eye/>
Jon Robert Crofoot
John Cowan <co...@ccil.org> wrote:
>Truly Donovan wrote:
>
>> In the last part of "The Politician's Wife,"
>> they have Matlock, the supposedly great orator, speechifying about a
>> rift in the party; he describes it as "a chasm as wide as the San
>> Andreas Fault."
>
>Brit 1: "I see the Americans have taken umbrage."
>
>Brit 2: "The deuce they have! --- Where is Umbrage, anyway?"
>
>:-)
>
War of 1812.
Brit: Burned Washington? Balderdash! Joan of Arc, yes...
Truly Donovan
Keith C. Ivey wrote:
>
> Don't forget the ads for the automatic iced-tea maker that had a
> English-accented voiceover and "Rule Britannia" as background
> music. The English are fans of tea, but certainly not the iced
> variety.
Hmm. My observation is that they sure guzzle enough of it when they come
over here.
Lee Lester
BC> Has a study been made of British influence on American TV? In
BC> addition to the many dramas and comedies on PBS, British-made
BC> nature documentaries seem to show up a lot on the Discovery and TLC
BC> channels. And of course, whenever an advertiser wants to really
BC> puff up a product, he'll hire a True Brit to supply a rich accent
BC> to the voice-over. Imagine -- a man with a British accent, pushing
BC> a Japanese automobile!
And to think that not that many years ago, British film makers could not
sell their product in the US where Americans asked: "Why don't those
Limeys speak English. We can't understand a word."
No wonder that the Hollywood Reporter, telling of the success or
otherwise of a drive by UK film makers in the mid-west, headlined its
story: 'British flix nix in stix.'
But somehow the British accent came to be associated with con-men,
scofflaws, cads, bounders and other n'ere-do-wells. That reached its
acme in the 80s when the femme fatales of at least three very successful
soap operas were all British- the best-known example was Joan Collins
in, I think, Dynasty, or was it Dallas? - causing one Fleet St. paper to
headline its story: 'British bitches are the best bitches.' Well, at
least the UK exported them to the US, so why bitch?
Mike Barnes
The dancing digits of Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> created this
pronouncement in alt.usage.english...
>Keith C. Ivey wrote:
>>
>> Don't forget the ads for the automatic iced-tea maker that had a
>> English-accented voiceover and "Rule Britannia" as background
>> music. The English are fans of tea, but certainly not the iced
>> variety.
>
>Hmm. My observation is that they sure guzzle enough of it when they come
>over here.
I can think of several possible reasons for that, but in England iced
tea is certainly not popular.
Truly Donovan
Lee Lester wrote:
>
> BC> Has a study been made of British influence on American TV? In
> BC> addition to the many dramas and comedies on PBS, British-made
> BC> nature documentaries seem to show up a lot on the Discovery and TLC
> BC> channels. And of course, whenever an advertiser wants to really
> BC> puff up a product, he'll hire a True Brit to supply a rich accent
> BC> to the voice-over. Imagine -- a man with a British accent, pushing
> BC> a Japanese automobile!
>
> And to think that not that many years ago, British film makers could not
> sell their product in the US where Americans asked: "Why don't those
> Limeys speak English. We can't understand a word."
Yeah, up until a few years ago we never got to see any British movies.
We never heard of Pinewood Studios, "The Horse's Mouth," "Kind Hearts
and Coronets," or any of that.
I've developed a new rule for AUE interpretation -- if Lee Lester says
it, and it is about the US, the odds of its being true are vanishingly
small.
>
> No wonder that the Hollywood Reporter, telling of the success or
> otherwise of a drive by UK film makers in the mid-west, headlined its
> story: 'British flix nix in stix.'
That sounds to me like a classic Variety headline; when did the
Hollywood Reporter start copying the Variety style?
>
> But somehow the British accent came to be associated with con-men,
> scofflaws, cads, bounders and other n'ere-do-wells.
Yeah, that's why we always hired Laurence Olivier, Leslie Howard, Alec
Guinness, and John Gielgud to play the heavies in Hollywood movies.
Matthew Rabuzzi
: > >
: > >the concern that it does. It is its very lack of chasmness
: >
: > Would 'chasmitude' be acceptable?
:
: If I had gone that direction, I would have gone all the way to
: "chasmitudity."
_My Name Is Asher Cleft_?
.............................................
A jewelers loupe should be made of wolframite
Matthew Rabuzzi
barbara.@bookpro.com
Mike Barnes <mi...@exodus.co.uk> wrote:
>The dancing digits of Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> created this
>pronouncement in alt.usage.english:
>>Hmm. My observation is that they sure guzzle enough of it when they come
>>over here.
>
>I can think of several possible reasons for that, but in England iced
>tea is certainly not popular.
As I understand it, the British haven't got the hang of iced drinks of
any kind. Is it true that when one (probably an American one) asks
for ice in his or her drink, only a couple of cubes are put in?
I say this as an American who doesn't much like iced tea and seldom
puts ice in drinks that are already cold. But when a drink has ice in
the U.S., there should be lots of ice. Iced tea without enough ice is
just not right.
BWillette
Truly Donovan
barbara.@bookpro.com wrote:
>
> As I understand it, the British haven't got the hang of iced drinks of
> any kind. Is it true that when one (probably an American one) asks
> for ice in his or her drink, only a couple of cubes are put in?
Oh my goodness! Is it too soon for me to retell my story about my first
trip to London? Huh? Huh?
Mike Barnes
The dancing digits of barbara.?@bookpro.com created this pronouncement
in alt.usage.english...
>Mike Barnes <mi...@exodus.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>The dancing digits of Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> created this
>>pronouncement in alt.usage.english:
>
>>>Hmm. My observation is that they sure guzzle enough of it when they come
>>>over here.
>>
>>I can think of several possible reasons for that, but in England iced
>>tea is certainly not popular.
>
>any kind.
If by "get the hang of" you mean "do the American way", then you're
right. Different country, different ways.
> Is it true that when one (probably an American one) asks
>for ice in his or her drink, only a couple of cubes are put in?
Not "probably American". Unless you're talking about beer, that is.
Generally speaking British ice is optional and comes, as you say, in
small quantities. If you want more, you have to remember to ask for
"lots of ice".
Here we generally don't like the American style (a glass full of ice
cubes surrounded by a negligible quantity of whatever it was you thought
you were actually buying). In the USA, I usually ask for "just a little
ice". On planes this approximately quadruples the amount of juice in a
glass.
[Sign that I observed in California: Coke 45 cents. No ice, 95 cents.]
John Nurick
On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:37:29 GMT, kci...@cpcug.org (Keith C. Ivey)
wrote:
>... automatic iced-tea maker ...
I can envisage a Heath Robinson iced-tea maker (I don't know he work
of R Goldberg), but am having trouble with the idea of it as a
practical consumer product. Is/was it like a Goblin Teasmade with an
ice-bucket on top?
Why would it be needed, anyway? Can't you just keep iced tea in the
fridge.
Fortunately I have just thought of an a.u.e-relevant question: why is
Long Island iced tea (which not a few of the Brits I know much prefer
to ordinary iced tea) so called?
John
John Cowan
Truly Donovan wrote:
> Lee Lester wrote:
> > No wonder that the Hollywood Reporter, telling of the success or
> > otherwise of a drive by UK film makers in the mid-west, headlined its
> > story: 'British flix nix in stix.'
>
> That sounds to me like a classic Variety headline; when did the
> Hollywood Reporter start copying the Variety style?
I suggest, indeed, that it is no more than a garbled reminiscence
of the "most central" *Variety* headline,
HIX NIX STIX PIX
which translates into English as "People who live in the country
are unwilling to see movies about rural life."
(*Variety* is, and has been for over a century, the trade
newspaper of the theatre and its offshoots in the U.S.; apparently
it adopted the name when that was the British equivalent of
U.S. "vaudeville".)
Truly Donovan
Nick Carter wrote:
>
> Truly Donovan (tr...@lunemere.com) wrote:
> : If the San Andreas Fault were a chasm, it wouldn't be giving us nearly
> : the concern that it does. It is its very lack of chasmness that is
> : worrisome.
>
> I do not think it fair to blame someone for thinking that a geographical
> "fault" might be a chasm. Some faults have quite substantial features,
> like the one containing Loch Ness in Scotland. There has been a level of
> "inflation" in these descriptive terms. For example, if you had never seen
> it, what would you expect Mount Brighton in Michigan to be made of?
> Granite perhaps?
I don't recall ever having seen Mount Brighton in Michigan, but having lived
in Michigan, my first guess would be that it is made of hay. My next choice
would be iron ore. I wouldn't use it as a metaphor in a speech until I was
certain that it met the criteria needed to support the metaphor.
As for blaming "someone," my guess would be that quite a few people on the
production staff of Masterpiece Theater let that one by. But if you feel
strongly that they have been treated unfairly by my calling it a howler, be
my guest. It's still a howler.
Nick Carter
Truly Donovan (tr...@lunemere.com) wrote:
: If the San Andreas Fault were a chasm, it wouldn't be giving us nearly
: the concern that it does. It is its very lack of chasmness that is
: worrisome.
I do not think it fair to blame someone for thinking that a geographical
"fault" might be a chasm. Some faults have quite substantial features,
like the one containing Loch Ness in Scotland. There has been a level of
"inflation" in these descriptive terms. For example, if you had never seen
it, what would you expect Mount Brighton in Michigan to be made of?
Granite perhaps?
NC
Keith C. Ivey
j.nu...@dial.pipex.com (John Nurick) wrote:
>kci...@cpcug.org (Keith C. Ivey) wrote:
>
>>... automatic iced-tea maker ...
>
>fridge.
I imagine you do keep the tea in the fridge after you make it.
It's an iced-tea maker, not a iced-tea storage device. I've
never examined or used any kind of automatic tea maker, so I
don't know how it compares to the Goblin whatchamacallit you
mentioned in the paragraph I deleted.
>Fortunately I have just thought of an a.u.e-relevant question: why is
>Long Island iced tea (which not a few of the Brits I know much prefer
>to ordinary iced tea) so called?
I'd guess it's because it looks like iced tea and was invented
in Long Island. (Note also that iced tea in the Eastern US is
much more popular in the South than in the North, where it is
considered a summertime drink. I've ordered iced tea in
Connecticut and almost been given Long Island iced tea.)
Ash Nallawalla
In <199701182...@zetnet.co.uk> Steve Lewin <sle...@zetnet.co.uk> writes:
>Nevertheless one could wonder why it is considered necessary to
>Americanise (ize ?) British books for the US while us Brits get the
>straight American versions.
Cliff Stoll's book (The Cuckoo's Egg) was published in a British
edition, which was the one we saw in Oz. I can't recall the
specifics, but the spelling changes proved distracting to
me, given the American setting.
--
PC User Group Leader? See http://www.apcug.org
Markus Laker
Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com>:
> barbara.@bookpro.com wrote:
> >
> > As I understand it, the British haven't got the hang of iced drinks of
> > any kind. Is it true that when one (probably an American one) asks
> > for ice in his or her drink, only a couple of cubes are put in?
Depends. In some trendy pubs they innocently ask 'ice?' and then
swindle you by filling the glass with ice before coaxing the beverage
into the interstices. In those places you have to remember to answer
'just a little', and do it quickly.
Let's face it: even the sunniest parts of Britain only have about three
days a year in which you need more than an inch of ice in your drink.
Or any ice at all, to be honest.
> Oh my goodness! Is it too soon for me to retell my story about my first
> trip to London? Huh? Huh?
Be my guest, but first tell us where in America one can obtain a proper
cup of tea or a decent pint of bitter and the right environment in which
to drink it.
Markus Laker.
--
If you quote me, I would appreciate an email copy of your article.
Stephen MacGregor
Markus Laker <la...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in article
<32f78793...@news.tcp.co.uk>...
<<... but first tell us where in America one can obtain a proper cup of
tea or a decent pint of bitter and the right environment in which to
drink it.>>
That reminds me of something I've been wondering for a long time.
Are there any really good Mexican restaurants in England, or are ethnic
restaurants an American phenomenon?
--
-- __Q Grafo Stefano MAC:GREGOR
-- -`\<, \ma-GRE-gar\
-- (*)/ (*) Fenikso, graflando de Marikopo, Arizono, Usono
--------------- <http://www.goodnet.com/~stevemac/ttt-hejm.htm> ---
Brian J Goggin
On 2 Feb 1997 15:29:11 GMT, "Stephen MacGregor" <Stev...@GoodNet.Com>
wrote:
[...]
> That reminds me of something I've been wondering for a long time.
>Are there any really good Mexican restaurants in England, or are ethnic
>restaurants an American phenomenon?
Ethnic = Mexican?
bjg
Brian J Goggin
On 2 Feb 1997 23:20:09 GMT, "Stephen MacGregor" <Stev...@GoodNet.Com>
wrote:
>Brian J Goggin <b...@wordwrights.ie> wrote in article
><32f50e6...@news.eunet.ie>...
>
><<Ethnic = Mexican?>>
>
> Ethnic = Mexican, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Italian, French, Indian,
>etc.
>Do you use "ethnic" to refer to only one of these?
I'm sorry; I misunderstood the second sentence of your original
posting:
> That reminds me of something I've been wondering for a long time.
>Are there any really good Mexican restaurants in England, or are ethnic
>restaurants an American phenomenon?
In Ireland, we have many ethnic restaurants, most of them American.
bjg
Stephen MacGregor
<<Ethnic = Mexican?>>
Ethnic = Mexican, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Italian, French, Indian,
etc.
Do you use "ethnic" to refer to only one of these?
--
Lee Lester
>Are there any really good Mexican restaurantnd,
I don't know about now, but years ago when I lived in London, there was
an excellent one on Lower Sloane St., London, called, I believe, La
Mexicana.
Jonathan Paterson
j.nu...@dial.pipex.com (John Nurick) wrote:
>>Fortunately I have just thought of an a.u.e-relevant question: why is
>>Long Island iced tea (which not a few of the Brits I know much prefer
>>to ordinary iced tea) so called?
kci...@cpcug.org (Keith C. Ivey) wrote:
>I'd guess it's because it looks like iced tea and was invented
>in Long Island.
Could somebody explain what Long Island iced tea is and how it differs
from ordinary iced tea?
Jon Robert Crofoot
Prohibition period; "Long Island iced tea" LOOKED like iced
tea, but actually contained a much stronger brew.
Truly Donovan
Jonathan Paterson wrote:
>
> Could somebody explain what Long Island iced tea is and how it differs
> from ordinary iced tea?
It doesn't have any tea in it. It has lots of booze in it, and takes on
the coloration of iced tea.
Christopher Perrott
Truly Donovan wrote:
>
> Jonathan Paterson wrote:
> >
> > Could somebody explain what Long Island iced tea is and how it differs
> > from ordinary iced tea?
>
> It doesn't have any tea in it. It has lots of booze in it, and takes on
> the coloration of iced tea.
>
Come on folks! We want the recipe!
--
Chris Perrott
Chris Malcolm
>As I understand it, the British haven't got the hang of iced drinks of
>any kind. Is it true that when one (probably an American one) asks
>for ice in his or her drink, only a couple of cubes are put in?
You are quite right. We British don't understand about iced drinks, and
only put a few cubes in, and only when asked. But there's a lot more!
For example, we don't use real money. That's right, we don't use
dollars, we use some weird kind of foreign currency instead of cash. And
we drive on the wrong side of the road. We spell lots of American words
wrong. And not only do we not eat enough meat, we actually refuse to
import Good American Beef on the grounds that it's so full of hormones
and antibiotics that our unAmerican medical experts think that eating it
would disorder our metabolisms and make us obese! And you don't even
want to hear about our toilet habits!
There's no end to how wrong we foreigners get things.
--
Chris Malcolm c...@dai.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK DoD #205
Mark Odegard
[Posted, e-mailed] On Mon, 03 Feb 1997 00:09:45 -0700, Truly
Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> in <32F58F...@lunemere.com>
wrote
>Jonathan Paterson wrote:
>>
>> Could somebody explain what Long Island iced tea is and how it differs
>> from ordinary iced tea?
>
>It doesn't have any tea in it. It has lots of booze in it, and takes on
>the coloration of iced tea.
The version I'm familiar with does *not* look like iced tea.
It's all white booze: vodka, triple sec, tequila and rum, if
I've remembered it right, but I assume you could use the yellow
versions of the last two and make it look iced tea colored.
--
Mark Odegard ode...@ptel.net
[e-mailed copies of responses to my postings are welcomed]
The great orthographical contest has long subsisted between
etymology and pronunciation. It has been demanded, on one hand,
that men should write as they speak; but, as it has been shown
that this conformity never was attained in any language, and
that it is not more easy to persuade men to agree exactly in
speaking than in writing, it may be asked, with equal propriety,
why men do not rather speak as they write.
-- Samuel Johnson, "The Plan of an English Dictionary" (1747).
Dale Williams
Simon Hosie wrote:
>
> Keith C. Ivey wrote:
> The English are fans of tea, but certainly not the iced
> > variety.
>
> > Hmm. My observation is that they sure guzzle enough of it when they come
> > over here.
>
Maybe, but if true, more likely it's because getting a decent hot cup of
tea in the US involves a long and frustrating search. One is offered a
teabag in a cup of lukewarm water in most places I visited. And perhaps
even powdered coffee creamer in place of milk.
(In sporting circles in this country I have heard that sort of teabag
tea referred to as "tampon tea", and it is regarded as suitable only for
emergency consumption on a tramping trip - US translation, hiking trip.)
With an audible sniff,
D.A.W.
Simon Hosie
Keith C. Ivey wrote:
> Don't forget the ads for the automatic iced-tea maker that had a
> English-accented voiceover and "Rule Britannia" as background
Nick Carter
When I first came to the USA from Britain I was living in an hotel. A
group of four fine elderly ladies were sitting at a table and ordered tea.
The waiter returned with a polished aluminium tea pot full of hot tea. I
thought "it should really be earthenware (this is not the army or British
Rail), but it is actually quite proper." He then took four glasses of ice
cubes and poured the hot tea into each one. I thought "those ladies are
going to go berzerk, this will be ugly". But no, they all smiled and
started to drink it. There were some things about the USA that took more
getting used to than others.
NC
Simon Hosie (gum...@airdmhor.gen.nz) wrote:
Alan Pollock
Distribution:
Brian J Goggin (b...@wordwrights.ie) wrote:
: On 2 Feb 1997 23:20:09 GMT, "Stephen MacGregor" <Stev...@GoodNet.Com>
: wrote:
: >Brian J Goggin <b...@wordwrights.ie> wrote in article
: ><32f50e6...@news.eunet.ie>...
: >
: ><<Ethnic = Mexican?>>
: >
: > Ethnic = Mexican, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Italian, French, Indian,
: >etc.
: >Do you use "ethnic" to refer to only one of these?
: I'm sorry; I misunderstood the second sentence of your original
: posting:
: > That reminds me of something I've been wondering for a long time.
: >Are there any really good Mexican restaurants in England, or are ethnic
: >restaurants an American phenomenon?
: In Ireland, we have many ethnic restaurants, most of them American.
: bjg
You have my sympathy. Nex
barbara@.bookpro.com
Christopher Perrott <cper...@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
>Truly Donovan wrote:
>>
>> Jonathan Paterson wrote:
>> >
>> > Could somebody explain what Long Island iced tea is and how it differs
>> > from ordinary iced tea?
>>
>> It doesn't have any tea in it. It has lots of booze in it, and takes on
>> the coloration of iced tea.
>>
>
>Come on folks! We want the recipe!
There are probably many. Here's one:
1/4 oz. (fluid ounce) each of rum, tequila, vodka, and gin
1 1/2 oz. lemon juice
Shake and pour into a highball glass filled with ice. Fill the glass
the rest of the way with Coca-Cola and garnish with a lemon twist.
BWillette
barbara@.bookpro.com
gum...@airdmhor.gen.nz (Simon Hosie) wrote:
>Keith C. Ivey wrote:
>> Don't forget the ads for the automatic iced-tea maker that had a
>> English-accented voiceover and "Rule Britannia" as background
>> music. The English are fans of tea, but certainly not the iced
>> variety.
>Truly Donovan:
>> Hmm. My observation is that they sure guzzle enough of it when they come
>> over here.
> Perhaps because of the climate?
That would be my guess. I can't see the point of iced tea in Britain
at all. It's a drink that really should be consumed in very hot
weather to be at all refreshing. I don't care for it at all unless
the ambient temperature is about 90 degrees F. and the humidity level
is above 50%.
BWillette
BWillette
Lars Eighner
In article <32f62235...@news.polaristel.net>,
ode...@ptel.net (Mark Odegard) wrote:
|The version I'm familiar with does *not* look like iced tea.
|It's all white booze: vodka, triple sec, tequila and rum, if
|I've remembered it right, but I assume you could use the yellow
|versions of the last two and make it look iced tea colored.
In these parts, Coca-Cola is added for color--just a tad.
The booze is often overpowered by the use of sweet-and-sour
syrup (essentially concentrated lemonade) and the result
tastes remarkably like iced-tea the way some American's
drink it: any taste of the the tea being overpowered by
lemon and sugar.
--
Lars Eighner http://www.io.com/~eighner
12550 Vista View #302 eig...@io.com
San Antonio TX 78231 alt.books.lars-eighner
(210)979-7124 "Yes, Lizbeth is fine."
Brian J Goggin
On Tue, 04 Feb 1997 02:06:05 GMT, kci...@cpcug.org (Keith C. Ivey)
wrote:
>In my (US) experience, the phrase "ethnic restaurant" often
>excludes those serving "ordinary" European food. When people
>say they like ethnic food, they're generally not talking about
>Italian pasta.
I can't recall ever hearing or seeing the phrase "ethnic restaurant"
used here. People might talk of going to an Indian, a Chinese or an
Italian restaurant; it may be that there hasn't been a need to speak
of all such restaurants as a group. It's conceivable, though, that the
phrase might be useful to those who write about restaurants; it may
therefore be in use without my having noticed it.
I used the phrase "all such restaurants", but I had qualms. It seems
to accept that "ordinary European food" is the norm. But if "ordinary
European food" excludes even pasta, what does it include? Just French
and English food?
I seek enlightenment here; I'm not criticising the usage.
bjg
Keith C. Ivey
>"Stephen MacGregor" <Stev...@GoodNet.Com> wrote:
>> Ethnic = Mexican, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Italian, French, Indian,
>>etc.
>>Do you use "ethnic" to refer to only one of these?
In my (US) experience, the phrase "ethnic restaurant" often
excludes those serving "ordinary" European food. When people
say they like ethnic food, they're generally not talking about
Italian pasta.
Keith C. Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org> Washington, DC
Philip Eden
barbara@.bookpro.com wrote:
>gum...@airdmhor.gen.nz (Simon Hosie) wrote:
>> Perhaps because of the climate?
>
>That would be my guess. I can't see the point of iced tea in Britain
>at all. It's a drink that really should be consumed in very hot
>weather to be at all refreshing. I don't care for it at all unless
>the ambient temperature is about 90 degrees F. and the humidity level
>is above 50%.
>
>BWillette
>
1996. Surprise you?
Philip Eden
Truly Donovan
Brian J Goggin wrote:
>
> On Tue, 04 Feb 1997 02:06:05 GMT, kci...@cpcug.org (Keith C. Ivey)
> wrote:
>
> >excludes those serving "ordinary" European food. When people
> >say they like ethnic food, they're generally not talking about
> >Italian pasta.
>
> used here. People might talk of going to an Indian, a Chinese or an
> Italian restaurant; it may be that there hasn't been a need to speak
> of all such restaurants as a group. It's conceivable, though, that the
> phrase might be useful to those who write about restaurants; it may
> therefore be in use without my having noticed it.
>
> I used the phrase "all such restaurants", but I had qualms. It seems
> to accept that "ordinary European food" is the norm. But if "ordinary
> European food" excludes even pasta, what does it include? Just French
> and English food?
What was said was that "ordinary European food" *included* pasta, not
excluded it.
>
> I seek enlightenment here; I'm not criticising the usage.
"Ethnic" seems to be applied around here mostly to the more exotic
cuisines. [Note that Indian food, commonplace in England, is much less
so here.] The designation "ethnic" tends to include Middle Eastern and
African cuisines, as well as the less-familiar Asian cuisines, such as
Thai and Korean. Americans grew up with Chinese food in much the same
way that the English grew up with Indian food (or, as my expatriate
British pal, Maurice, once put it, "Curry is the chop suey of England").
Of course, we don't eat chop suey any more either. There has been *some*
progress in the 20th century.
Lee Rudolph
Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> writes:
>Of course, we don't eat chop suey any more either. There has been *some*
>progress in the 20th century.
In Fall River, Massachusetts, a specialty of the local lunchcounters
is the Chop Suey Sandwich. (Or is it the Chow Mein Sandwich? Damn
my poor memory.)
Since, however, the Borden family's breakfast the day of the murders
(at the end of the 19th century) was green bananas and cold mutton
stew, Truly's second sentence still stands.
Lee Rudolph
Truly Donovan
Lee Rudolph wrote:
>
> Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> writes:
>
> >Of course, we don't eat chop suey any more either. There has been *some*
> >progress in the 20th century.
>
> In Fall River, Massachusetts, a specialty of the local lunchcounters
> is the Chop Suey Sandwich.
Hmm. I guess that was the "royal" we in that case. . . .
Truly Donovan
Brian J Goggin wrote:
>
>
> So could I take it that "ethnic", at least where restaurants are
> concerned, is not applied to European food, but that it might include
> Mexican food?
Mexican food? Ethnic? Hard to say, that one. If you accept my earlier
suggestion that "ethnic restaurant" in common parlance generally refers
to the more exotic cuisines, then Mexican restaurants no longer qualify.
There was a time when they could only be found in the southwest (or at
least ones with edible food), but that is no longer the case.
I would guess that most of the people I know would not consider a trip
to the local Taco Bell "ethnic dining."
Jonathan Paterson
>Brian J Goggin <b...@wordwrights.ie> wrote in article
><32f50e6...@news.eunet.ie>...
><<Ethnic = Mexican?>>
"Stephen MacGregor" <Stev...@GoodNet.Com> wrote:
> Ethnic = Mexican, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Italian, French, Indian,
>etc.
>Do you use "ethnic" to refer to only one of these?
Presumably it depends where you are. Isn't the Moscow MacDonald's an
ethnic restaurant?
Brian J Goggin
On Tue, 04 Feb 1997 15:13:38 -0700, Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com>
wrote:
[...]
>What was said was that "ordinary European food" *included* pasta, not
>excluded it.
Oops: major mistake on my part. Apologies to all; thanks for pointing
it out.
>"Ethnic" seems to be applied around here mostly to the more exotic
>cuisines. [Note that Indian food, commonplace in England, is much less
>so here.] The designation "ethnic" tends to include Middle Eastern and
>African cuisines, as well as the less-familiar Asian cuisines, such as
>Thai and Korean. Americans grew up with Chinese food in much the same
>way that the English grew up with Indian food (or, as my expatriate
>British pal, Maurice, once put it, "Curry is the chop suey of England").
So could I take it that "ethnic", at least where restaurants are
concerned, is not applied to European food, but that it might include
Mexican food? Indeed it sounds as if it includes most of the cuisines
of Africa, Asia (except China) and South America.
Is the word used to describe the exoticism or unfamiliarity of the
food itself, or does it reflect how Americans see the nation or race
that produces it? In other words, if a restaurant is called an ethnic
restaurant, could I assume that those whose cuisine it is are regarded
as an ethnic minority?
To what extent does "ethnic" mean "non-Caucasian"?
I get the impression that the usage has connotations that are not
shown in my dictionaries.
bjg
Keith C. Ivey
b...@wordwrights.ie (Brian J Goggin) wrote:
>kci...@cpcug.org (Keith C. Ivey) wrote:
>
>>In my (US) experience, the phrase "ethnic restaurant" often
>>excludes those serving "ordinary" European food. When people
>>say they like ethnic food, they're generally not talking about
>>Italian pasta.
>
>I used the phrase "all such restaurants", but I had qualms. It seems
>to accept that "ordinary European food" is the norm. But if "ordinary
>European food" excludes even pasta, what does it include? Just French
>and English food?
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but I think you misunderstood
me. I was saying that "ordinary European food" did include
pasta. In fact, here in the US, pasta is more ordinary than
French food (unless there's some form of French food that I'm
not thinking of as French). Spaghetti might have been foreign
food when my parents were growing up, and it certainly was
foreign food when my grandparents were growing up, but it's been
as American as hamburgers and fried chicken for several decades.
Keith C. Ivey
barbara@.bookpro.com wrote:
>I can't see the point of iced tea in Britain at all. It's a
>drink that really should be consumed in very hot weather to be
>at all refreshing. I don't care for it at all unless the
>ambient temperature is about 90 degrees F. and the humidity
>level is above 50%.
It's comments like this that make me remember that even though
I don't talk funny I am a (US) Southerner. Iced tea, like any
other cold drink, is a year-round beverage. You don't confine
Coke to the summer, do you?
[posted and mailed]
Brian J Goggin
On Wed, 05 Feb 1997 03:29:18 GMT, kci...@cpcug.org (Keith C. Ivey)
wrote:
[...]
>Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but I think you misunderstood
>me. I was saying that "ordinary European food" did include
>pasta. In fact, here in the US, pasta is more ordinary than
>French food (unless there's some form of French food that I'm
>not thinking of as French). Spaghetti might have been foreign
>food when my parents were growing up, and it certainly was
>foreign food when my grandparents were growing up, but it's been
>as American as hamburgers and fried chicken for several decades.
I misread your last posting. I'm sorry.
For French cooking, I was thinking of the influence on haute cuisine:
perhaps the approach rather than the ingredients or the dishes.
bjg
M. Murray
: wrote:
:
: [...]
:
: >Are there any really good Mexican restaurants in England, or are ethnic
: >restaurants an American phenomenon?
:
:
: bjg
Excellent question. Of course England (Britain) has lots and lots of
ethnic restaurants, just like the US, largely because native English food
is about as bad as native American food. The difference is that the
ethnicity varies, as in all countries of the world. In England, Indian
and Chinese probably dominate, in America it's Mexican and Chinese. So to
turn Steve MacGregors question on its head; "Are there any really good
Indian restaurants in America, or are ethnic restaurants an English
phenomenon?"
--
Martin Murray :: School of Chemistry, Bristol University, BS8 1TS, England
Brian J Goggin
On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:27:35 GMT, co...@zeus.bris.ac.uk (M. Murray)
wrote:
[...]
>Excellent question. Of course England (Britain) has lots and lots of
>ethnic restaurants, just like the US, largely because native English food
>is about as bad as native American food.
Thanks for your response. I just want to disagree a little about
native English food. Think of the joys of real cheese, faggots and
peas, steak and kidney pudding, Suffolk pond pudding, real kippers,
Cornish pasties, real English ale ....
Real native English food is wonderful; the only problem is that very
few people cook or eat it any more.
bjg
Ash Nallawalla
>So could I take it that "ethnic", at least where restaurants are
>concerned, is not applied to European food, but that it might include
>Mexican food? Indeed it sounds as if it includes most of the cuisines
>of Africa, Asia (except China) and South America.
>To what extent does "ethnic" mean "non-Caucasian"?
In Australia, it seems to mean anything not from the UK and countries
it settled, in the context of TV or food. The Melbourne
Yellow Pages has, within the Restaurants listing, a block
labelled Cuisine Guide, which includes French, German, and many
other nationalities but not British, Australian, NZ, US, or Canadian.
--
PC User Group Leader? See http://www.apcug.org
Mike Barnes
In alt.usage.english, Mike Long <mike...@netaccess.co.nz> spake
thuswise:
>Thing are changing (in New Zealand, anyway). Twenty years ago, cold
>tea was every bit as appetising as warm Coke. Now Iced Tea is sold in
>cans.
I saw cans of "iced tea" in the USA. I wondered how one got the ice out
of that little hole in the top.
--
-- Mike Barnes, Stockport, England.
-- If you post a response to Usenet, please *don't* send me a copy by e-mail.
Gary Williams, Business Services Accounting
In article <32f7cc83...@news.eunet.ie>, b...@wordwrights.ie
(Brian J Goggin) writes:
> On Tue, 04 Feb 1997 15:13:38 -0700, Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com>
> wrote:
>>"Ethnic" seems to be applied around here mostly to the more exotic
>>cuisines.
> So could I take it that "ethnic", at least where restaurants are
> concerned, is not applied to European food, but that it might include
> Mexican food?
I think that Mexican food illustrates Truly's point quite well. Here in
Colorado, I don't think most people would intuitively classify Mexican
restaurants as ethnic. In Washington, D.C., where I once spent a difficult two
years practically unable to find a smothered burrito, I suspect that they
would.
Gary Williams
WILL...@AHECAS.AHEC.EDU
Brian J Goggin
On 5 Feb 97 07:57:31 MST, will...@ahecas.ahec.edu (Gary Williams,
Business Services Accounting) wrote:
[...]
>I think that Mexican food illustrates Truly's point quite well. Here in
>Colorado, I don't think most people would intuitively classify Mexican
>restaurants as ethnic. In Washington, D.C., where I once spent a difficult two
>years practically unable to find a smothered burrito, I suspect that they
>would.
So "ethnic" means something like "exotic", "strange" or "foreign"? In
this context, the state of being "ethnic" reflects how familiar the
cuisine is rather than whether it's characteristic of a different
race, nation, country or continent .... Is that it?
Is this usage used in contexts other than that of cooking? Would it be
used, for instance, of art, music or language?
I'm sorry if I'm boring Americans to whom this is all straightforward,
but I haven't come across the usage here, except perhaps in the phrase
"ethnic music". Other Europeans may be more familiar with it than I
am.
bjg
Daan Sandee
In article <32f8a44d...@news.eunet.ie> b...@wordwrights.ie (Brian J Goggin) writes:
>
>So "ethnic" means something like "exotic", "strange" or "foreign"? In
>this context, the state of being "ethnic" reflects how familiar the
>cuisine is rather than whether it's characteristic of a different
>race, nation, country or continent .... Is that it?
>Is this usage used in contexts other than that of cooking? Would it be
>used, for instance, of art, music or language?
"ethnic" means "non-American" as an adjective for anything cultural.
So "foreign" (in the cultural sense, not the political) covers it.
What constitutes "non-American" depends how much an imported culture
has been accepted. As several people have said, Mexican cuisine is
a lot more common in some parts of the U.S. than in others. But Thai
art, cooking, or music would be "ethnic". A supermarket may have a
section "ethnic food" (although I can't remember if they label it that
way) where, depending on locality, you might find anything that people
living in the area are not expected to eat but are apparently buying anyway.
Italian food isn't part of it, nor is Mexican : either that's labeled
"Mexican", or it's absent.
>I'm sorry if I'm boring Americans to whom this is all straightforward,
>but I haven't come across the usage here, except perhaps in the phrase
>"ethnic music". Other Europeans may be more familiar with it than I
>am.
If you use "ethnic music" to mean "folk music originating outside of
the British Isles", that's exactly right. In some parts of the U.S.,
Scots or Irish music might be "ethnic" but I doubt that you're using
it that way.
Daan Sandee
Burlington, MA san...@east.sun.com
Nick Carter
Keith C. Ivey (kci...@cpcug.org) wrote:
: ... Iced tea, like any
: other cold drink, is a year-round beverage. You don't confine
: Coke to the summer, do you?
For no other reason than personal preference, I do not like iced tea. To
be perfectly honest, I have never tasted it. The thought of it alone has
served as a complete deterrent, and this has been a "year-round"
prejudice. I am sure that there are many people who are thinking "he
doesn't know what he is missing" and this is true. Also, I have never had
my gall bladder removed so my future could be full of all kinds of unknown
delights.
NC
Brian J Goggin
On 5 Feb 1997 17:48:15 GMT, san...@sun.nospam (Daan Sandee) wrote:
[...]
>"ethnic" means "non-American" as an adjective for anything cultural.
>So "foreign" (in the cultural sense, not the political) covers it.
>What constitutes "non-American" depends how much an imported culture
>has been accepted. As several people have said, Mexican cuisine is
>a lot more common in some parts of the U.S. than in others. But Thai
>art, cooking, or music would be "ethnic". A supermarket may have a
>section "ethnic food" (although I can't remember if they label it that
>way) where, depending on locality, you might find anything that people
>living in the area are not expected to eat but are apparently buying anyway.
>Italian food isn't part of it, nor is Mexican : either that's labeled
>"Mexican", or it's absent.
Thank you. I think I understand the usage a bit better, but I'd find
it hard to draw up a rule (were rules desirable) for deciding, for a
given area, what is ethnic and what is not.
I get the impression that the boundaries of cultural ethnicness need
not coincide with those of political or racial ethnicness.
bjg
Wendy Mueller
Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> wrote:
>I would guess that most of the people I know would not consider a trip
>to the local Taco Bell "ethnic dining."
Most of the people I know would not consider a trip to Taco Bell
*dining.*
--
Wendy Mueller
JC Dill
On Tue, 04 Feb 1997 02:06:05 GMT, kci...@cpcug.org (Keith C. Ivey)
expound upon: "Re: Ethnic Restaurants"
>>"Stephen MacGregor" <Stev...@GoodNet.Com> wrote:
>
>>> Ethnic = Mexican, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Italian, French, Indian,
>>>etc.
>>>Do you use "ethnic" to refer to only one of these?
>
>In my (US) experience, the phrase "ethnic restaurant" often
>excludes those serving "ordinary" European food. When people
>say they like ethnic food, they're generally not talking about
>Italian pasta.
I think a simple way to determine when a restaurant is considered
*ethnic* is to look at the menu versus a general purpose cookbook. If
most of the items on the menu are not listed or mentioned in a general
purpose cookbook for your country, then the restaurant can be
considered *ethnic*.
Joy of Cooking and Betty Crocker Cookbooks are standard US general
cookbooks. They mention pizza and lasagne, but not asian stir-fry or
sushi or burritos...
In the US we have a saying: "as American as Mom and Apple Pie". Apple
pie is a common recipe, one (here) expects to find in a general
purpose cookbook. I don't think one would find an apple pie recipe in
the same cookbook as a sushi recipie. Thus sushi is *ethinic* to a
typical American diner.
HTH
jc
Earle D. Jones
In article <32f913e5...@news.concentric.net>, jcd...@ix.netcom.com
(JC Dill) wrote:
>On Tue, 04 Feb 1997 02:06:05 GMT, kci...@cpcug.org (Keith C. Ivey)
>expound upon: "Re: Ethnic Restaurants"
>
>>>"Stephen MacGregor" <Stev...@GoodNet.Com> wrote:
>>
=========Clippit==========
>
>In the US we have a saying: "as American as Mom and Apple Pie". Apple
>pie is a common recipe.....
Well, if it isn't as American as apple pie, it is at least as American as
pizza pie.
earle
=====
__
__/\_\
/\_\/_/
\/_/\_\ earle
\/_/ jones
Mark Odegard
[Posted, e-mailed] On Wed, 05 Feb 1997 15:41:31 GMT,
b...@wordwrights.ie (Brian J Goggin) in
<32f8a44d...@news.eunet.ie> wrote
>So "ethnic" means something like "exotic", "strange" or "foreign"? In
>this context, the state of being "ethnic" reflects how familiar the
>cuisine is rather than whether it's characteristic of a different
>race, nation, country or continent .... Is that it?
Not a bad definition, actually, for describing ethnic cuisine.
The word "ethnic" here has the additional coloration of
"regional". Cajun cuisine is definitely ethnic, but not foreign,
at least to those in New Orleans. Similarly, some of the Tex-Mex
or Cal-Mex dishes you get in restaurants have never been seen
south of the border (sour cream on top of burritos? -- you
bet!).
What is being spoken of is how what was originally genuinely
ethnic, i.e., native to a specific national/cultural group has
become nativized all-American *regional* cuisine, and
eventually, just plain American cuisine (which of course, gets
internationalized via MacD's, KFC et al.) Pizza might have
originally been Italian, but what you get in Naples has only a
passing resemblance to what you get at Little Cesar's.
>
>I this usage used in contexts other than that of cooking? Would it be
>used, for instance, of art, music or language?
Zydeco is ethnic, but is also pop. Reggae began ethnic and to an
extent still is. Ethnic literature: Wm Faulkner? Thomas Mann in
Buddenbrooks? Snorri in The Prose Edda? How about Navajo sand
painting, or Navajo blanket weaving? Ethnic art that's also
*art*.
>
>I'm sorry if I'm boring Americans to whom this is all straightforward,
>but I haven't come across the usage here, except perhaps in the phrase
>"ethnic music". Other Europeans may be more familiar with it than I
>am.
Ethnic is not a perjorative word, tho' there is often some humor
attached to things labelled such (haggis or lutefisk is
decidedly ethnic).
--
Mark Odegard ode...@ptel.net
[e-mailed copies of responses to my postings are welcomed]
The great orthographical contest has long subsisted between
etymology and pronunciation. It has been demanded, on one hand,
that men should write as they speak; but, as it has been shown
that this conformity never was attained in any language, and
that it is not more easy to persuade men to agree exactly in
speaking than in writing, it may be asked, with equal propriety,
why men do not rather speak as they write.
-- Samuel Johnson, "The Plan of an English Dictionary" (1747).
barbara@.bookpro.com
kci...@cpcug.org (Keith C. Ivey) wrote:
>barbara@.bookpro.com wrote:
>
>>I can't see the point of iced tea in Britain at all. It's a
>>drink that really should be consumed in very hot weather to be
>>at all refreshing. I don't care for it at all unless the
>>ambient temperature is about 90 degrees F. and the humidity
>>level is above 50%.
>
>It's comments like this that make me remember that even though
>I don't talk funny I am a (US) Southerner. Iced tea, like any
>other cold drink, is a year-round beverage. You don't confine
>Coke to the summer, do you?
Actually, I do, except occasionally when I've been doing something
that heats me up, such as repairing the shed roof on a mild autumn
day.
I was born and raised in Old Virginny n the 1950s, and I consider both
iced tea and Coke peculiarly Southern and truly refreshing only on
hot, humid (i.e., ordinary) summer days and evenings. In contrast, I
find that lime rickeys are most refreshing in New England, where the
summers tend to be less intensely hot and not nearly as humid.
Personal taste only, of course.
BWillette
BWillette
barbara@.bookpro.com
Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> wrote:
>Brian J Goggin wrote:
>>
>> So could I take it that "ethnic", at least where restaurants are
>> concerned, is not applied to European food, but that it might include
>> Mexican food?
>
>Mexican food? Ethnic? Hard to say, that one. If you accept my earlier
>suggestion that "ethnic restaurant" in common parlance generally refers
>to the more exotic cuisines, then Mexican restaurants no longer qualify.
>There was a time when they could only be found in the southwest (or at
>least ones with edible food), but that is no longer the case.
>
>I would guess that most of the people I know would not consider a trip
>to the local Taco Bell "ethnic dining."
I suspect that a little storefront restaurant run by actual Mexicans
serving authentic Mexican dishes might be considered "ethnic." The
kind of Mexican restaurants we mostly have serve food that's about as
Mexican as chop suey is Chinese. (A friend of mine calls Taco Bell
"Taco Hell.")
Salvadoran restaurants (of which the Washington, D.C., area has
several) are considered "ethnic."
I think other kinds of restaurants, such as Greek or Polish, could be
considered ethnic. The size and relative fanciness of the restaurants
seem to be factors. Small/cheap/unfancy would be ethnic. That
expensive Polish place that is (or used to be) on Shattuck in
Berkeley, Calif., would not be ethnic.
BWillette
Duncan Gibson
M. Murray <co...@zeus.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
MM>
MM> Excellent question. Of course England (Britain) has lots and lots of
MM> ethnic restaurants, just like the US, largely because native English food
MM> is about as bad as native American food.
Flippantly: you mean they have Native American Restaurants in the US?
My curiosity is now piqued.
Seriously: do they have Native American Restaurants in the US?
Cheers
Duncan
This is my article, not my employer's, with my opinions and my disclaimer!
--
Duncan Gibson, ESTEC/YCV, Postbus 299, 2200AG Noordwijk, The Netherlands
Tel: +31 71 5654013 Fax: +31 71 5656142 Email: dun...@yc.estec.esa.nl
Brian J Goggin
On Thu, 06 Feb 1997 02:10:40 GMT, barbara@.bookpro.com wrote:
[...]
>I suspect that a little storefront restaurant run by actual Mexicans
>serving authentic Mexican dishes might be considered "ethnic." The
>kind of Mexican restaurants we mostly have serve food that's about as
>Mexican as chop suey is Chinese. (A friend of mine calls Taco Bell
>"Taco Hell.")
>
>Salvadoran restaurants (of which the Washington, D.C., area has
>several) are considered "ethnic."
Do you have any Irish restaurants? If so, are they ethnic?
>I think other kinds of restaurants, such as Greek or Polish, could be
>considered ethnic. The size and relative fanciness of the restaurants
>seem to be factors. Small/cheap/unfancy would be ethnic. That
>expensive Polish place that is (or used to be) on Shattuck in
>Berkeley, Calif., would not be ethnic.
Gosh. This adds another factor to the list of criteria for ethnicness.
It might explain why French restaurants (if associated with haute
cuisine) are not considered ethnic.
bjg
Brian J Goggin
On Thu, 06 Feb 1997 02:19:44 GMT, ode...@ptel.net (Mark Odegard)
wrote:
[...]
>>So "ethnic" means something like "exotic", "strange" or "foreign"? In
>>this context, the state of being "ethnic" reflects how familiar the
>>cuisine is rather than whether it's characteristic of a different
>>race, nation, country or continent .... Is that it?
>
>Not a bad definition, actually, for describing ethnic cuisine.
>The word "ethnic" here has the additional coloration of
>"regional". Cajun cuisine is definitely ethnic, but not foreign,
>at least to those in New Orleans. Similarly, some of the Tex-Mex
>or Cal-Mex dishes you get in restaurants have never been seen
>south of the border (sour cream on top of burritos? -- you
>bet!).
To a Cajun person, then, Cajun cuisine would not be ethnic, I presume.
>What is being spoken of is how what was originally genuinely
>ethnic, i.e., native to a specific national/cultural group has
>become nativized all-American *regional* cuisine, and
>eventually, just plain American cuisine (which of course, gets
>internationalized via MacD's, KFC et al.) Pizza might have
>originally been Italian, but what you get in Naples has only a
>passing resemblance to what you get at Little Cesar's.
At what stages during that progression does the cuisine have the word
"ethnic" attached to it?
What do you think of Barbara's suggestion that "Small/cheap/unfancy
would be ethnic"? Is that a reflection of the economic reality for the
original national/cultural groups, or of the tastes of the consumers
in the USA?
>Zydeco is ethnic, but is also pop. Reggae began ethnic and to an
>extent still is. Ethnic literature: Wm Faulkner? Thomas Mann in
>Buddenbrooks? Snorri in The Prose Edda? How about Navajo sand
>painting, or Navajo blanket weaving? Ethnic art that's also
>*art*.
Thanks: you've just encouraged me to learn a new word. I hadn't heard
of Zydeco before; it looked like a modern invention so I was
pleasantly surprised to find it in the OED (and Collins and the COD).
bjg
Lars Eighner
In article <E569E...@yc.estec.esa.nl>,
dun...@yc.estec.esa.nl (Duncan Gibson) wrote:
|M. Murray <co...@zeus.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
|MM>
|MM> Excellent question. Of course England (Britain) has lots and lots of
|MM> ethnic restaurants, just like the US, largely because native English food
|MM> is about as bad as native American food.
|
|Flippantly: you mean they have Native American Restaurants in the US?
Ugh! This use of "native" where "aboriginal" is meant always
rubs me the wrong way. Never mind, you didn't coin it.
|
|My curiosity is now piqued.
|
|Seriously: do they have Native American Restaurants in the US?
Not as such. Or at least not commonly. However, much of what
is known as "Mexican food" owes much to the aboriginal peoples of
what is now the US Southwest and relatively little to Spain.
Corn (maize) is the quintessential native American food, and is
a staple in Euro-American, Afro-American, and Mexican food.
While in the north corn is regarded as a vegetable, in southern
areas it is bread--whether tortillas, corn bread, hoecakes, etc.
--
Lars Eighner http://www.io.com/~eighner
12550 Vista View #302 eig...@io.com
San Antonio TX 78231 alt.books.lars-eighner
(210)979-7124 "Yes, Lizbeth is fine."
John Davies
In article <32f93cd1...@news.polaristel.net>, Mark Odegard
<ode...@ptel.net> writes
[snipped long and interesting account of "ethnic" usage in USA]
On a completely different tack, does "ethnic" still appear on
application forms for US visas? In recent years I've travelled there
armed with those painless fast-track tourist visas organized by the
airline, but the full application form used to have a field simply
labelled "ETHNIC".
The first time I came across it (in the 50s) I was extremely puzzled, so
'phoned the US Embassy and was told, by a very bored-sounding lady who
had probably answered the same question 200 times that morning, to leave
the field blank. She said that it only appeared there because Congress
had passed a law requiring it: but the State Department had presumably
taken the view that since Congress had not said what had to be done with
the information, they did not insist that it be filled in. I wonder what
kind of late-night haggling had gone into the choice of such a word for
such a curious non-purpose.
Anyone old enough to remember the background to this?
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
On that of which one cannot speak, one must remain silent. (Wittgenstein)
Brian J Goggin
On Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:08:07 +0000, John Davies
<jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
>The first time I came across it (in the 50s) I was extremely puzzled, so
>'phoned the US Embassy and was told, by a very bored-sounding lady who
>had probably answered the same question 200 times that morning, to leave
>the field blank. She said that it only appeared there because Congress
>had passed a law requiring it: but the State Department had presumably
>taken the view that since Congress had not said what had to be done with
>the information, they did not insist that it be filled in. I wonder what
>kind of late-night haggling had gone into the choice of such a word for
>such a curious non-purpose.
Gracious! How amazing to have access to a US embassy where the staff
actually answer questions.
bjg