Colloquial use of "suck"?
Pal
I'm German and I still haven't found a proper translation
for "suck". There's a colloquial meaning of "suck": to be
bad and unacceptable. For example: "His new song sucks".
Then again, I also read it in different constellations of
late:
- He sucks at math. He got a D+ last semester.
- That's a bummer. And it sucks large.
- It's a pity to hear that. It sucks big time.
I can understand the main meaning of these sentences, but I
want to know it more precisely, since it sounds a bit strange
to say the least.
Are these examples grammatically correct? How would you
translate them into German?
And by the way, is there a hidden ambiguousness when saying:
"sucking my love"? I understand this merely figuratively,
like a vampire would suck your blood without giving anything
back. However, couldn't it also be a slight insinuation for
oral sex?
Franke
Pal wrote:
> Hi forum!
Hi, Pal.
> I'm German and I still haven't found a proper translation
> for "suck". There's a colloquial meaning of "suck": to be
> bad and unacceptable. For example: "His new song sucks".
"terrible", "awful", "horrible", etc.
> Then again, I also read it in different constellations of
> late:
>
> - He sucks at math. He got a D+ last semester.
He doesn't understand/He's bad
> - That's a bummer. And it sucks large.
That makes me feel sad. It's just awful.
> - It's a pity to hear that. It sucks big time.
I'm sorry to hear that. It's terrible.
> I can understand the main meaning of these sentences, but I
> want to know it more precisely, since it sounds a bit strange
> to say the least.
It's merely an inarticulate way of saying "That's terrible".
> Are these examples grammatically correct?
Yeah, for what that's worth.
> How would you translate them into German?
I've forgotten my German, but I wouldn't even try. I'm
sure there are plenty of other Germanic grunts that
would do as a translation of "sucks".
> And by the way, is there a hidden ambiguousness when saying:
> "sucking my love"? I understand this merely figuratively,
> like a vampire would suck your blood without giving anything
> back. However, couldn't it also be a slight insinuation for
> oral sex?
You'll have to give more of a context for that little phrase. It
could as easily occur in a sentence about straws as about
blowjobs.
--
"Make definite assertions. Avoid tame, colorless,
hesitating, non-committal language."
-- William Strunk Jr., "Elements of Style"
Bertel Lund Hansen
>I'm German and I still haven't found a proper translation
>for "suck".
Either there is none, or you must use "lutschen". "Suck" in this
meaning has no precedence in German or Danish. You may in Denmark
hear a verbatim translation, but that is an ironic joke
understood only by those who are familiar with the suck
expressions.
>There's a colloquial meaning of "suck": to be
>bad and unacceptable. For example: "His new song sucks".
Yes, and that is the whole story. Any word may be given a new and
unrelated meaning. In this case I think that the allusion to oral
sex and the implication that a man giving oral sex to another man
- considered disgraceful - is behind the modern use, but it has
gone far beyond that.
I read a narrative - but don't know if it was reliable - about a
message being thrown over a wall to the emperor Augustus with the
message "Fellas, Auguste!" ("You suck, Augustus!").
>Are these examples grammatically correct?
Yes, and "It sucks big time!" is also common.
>How would you translate them into German?
I wouldn't. If I were in a group who knew me *well*, I might say
"Es lutscht grosse Zeit!" aber ...
There are of course a lot of German colloquialisms that might be
used instead, but that is hardly what you ask for.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Richard Fontana
> Pal skrev:
>
> >I'm German and I still haven't found a proper translation
> >for "suck".
>
> Either there is none, or you must use "lutschen". "Suck" in this
> meaning has no precedence in German or Danish. You may in Denmark
> hear a verbatim translation, but that is an ironic joke
> understood only by those who are familiar with the suck
> expressions.
>
> >There's a colloquial meaning of "suck": to be
> >bad and unacceptable. For example: "His new song sucks".
>
> Yes, and that is the whole story. Any word may be given a new and
> unrelated meaning. In this case I think that the allusion to oral
> sex and the implication that a man giving oral sex to another man
> - considered disgraceful - is behind the modern use, but it has
> gone far beyond that.
It should be noted that not all of us agree that that is the true (or
complete) origin of 'sucks'.
Richard Fontana
> Hi forum!
>
> I'm German and I still haven't found a proper translation
> for "suck". There's a colloquial meaning of "suck": to be
> bad and unacceptable. For example: "His new song sucks".
>
> Then again, I also read it in different constellations of
> late:
> - He sucks at math. He got a D+ last semester.
Here "suck at" is slightly different, meaning "perform badly at/in".
> - That's a bummer. And it sucks large.
Here "sucks" is really no different from the use in your first
example. "Large" should be understood to be an adverb meaning "to a
significant degree", "big-time"; I'm not sure this adverbial use of
"large" is so common (I'm having trouble thinking of anyone I know using
it), but it is readily understandable. "Bummer" is an ancient slang word
meaning "cause for disappointment".
> - It's a pity to hear that. It sucks big time.
Same. "Sucks" = "is bad, disappointing, disagreeable,
objectionable". "Big time" is an adverb.
> I can understand the main meaning of these sentences, but I
> want to know it more precisely, since it sounds a bit strange
> to say the least.
>
> Are these examples grammatically correct?
Yes. They are colloquial English. You wouldn't want to use them in your
think-piece for _Foreign Affairs_. Some of them seem a bit unlikely to me
-- for example, who would really utter "It's a pity to hear that" and then
follow it with "It sucks big time"? -- but that's a side issue.
> How would you
> translate them into German?
Sorry, I don't speak German.
> And by the way, is there a hidden ambiguousness when saying:
> "sucking my love"? I understand this merely figuratively,
> like a vampire would suck your blood without giving anything
> back. However, couldn't it also be a slight insinuation for
> oral sex?
Possibly, but I'd have to see the full context. "Suck" is one of those
words in English that have tons of meanings.
R H Draney
There was a story not long ago about some kid wearing a shirt that
said something like "rude people suck" getting kicked out of school
for it, on the grounds that it was a sexual reference...the faculty
(or some proper subset thereof) apparently are unable to divorce this
metaphor from its original, literal meaning...the student in question
seemed to find the controversy puzzling....
Apart from a reference to oral sex, what other sources might have
spawned this usage?...I can recall a .sig line saying "Shut 'er down,
Scotty, she's suckin' mud again!", and there's the occasional allusion
to a "sucking wound", but those don't seem likely to have led to "This
algebra homework really sucks"....r
--
"It's certainly meat, but beef is meat in a stronger sense."
- Richard Fontana reminds us that life has shades of gray
Martin Ambuhl
>
> Hi forum!
>
> I'm German and I still haven't found a proper translation
> for "suck". There's a colloquial meaning of "suck": to be
> bad and unacceptable. For example: "His new song sucks".
Oxford-Duden yields, s.v. suck:
2. <v.i.>
B. sth ~s (esp. Amer. sl.) etw. ist Scheisse (derb.)
But, of course, we know how to say in English that something is shit.
Alan Jones
"Richard Fontana" <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.010825...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu...
It's not yet an accepted BrE colloquialism, though I'm not au fait with
current teenage speech where I suppose it would be first borrowed.
Alan Jones
Pal
>> And by the way, is there a hidden ambiguousness when saying:
>> "sucking my love"? I understand this merely figuratively,
>> like a vampire would suck your blood without giving anything
>> back. However, couldn't it also be a slight insinuation for
>> oral sex?
>
> Possibly, but I'd have to see the full context.
You're so right! I should have cared for the context myself,
before asking here! It's from an old Diamond Head song and I
searched for the lyrics of that ditty on the web. Never thought
I would find them, but I did! After all, there are no questions
any more... :-)
Thanks!
Pal
> I wouldn't. If I were in a group who knew me *well*, I might say
> "Es lutscht grosse Zeit!" aber ...
That's a hilarious attempt to translate the expression word by word,
but that's exactly the point: I was looking for a proper German VERB
that could express the meaning of "suck". The best one I've found
so far is "ätzen", for example: "Dieser blöde Kerl ätzt!" ("This
goofy guy sucks!") However, I sense it's not the real thing and you
would rather say: "Dieser blöde Kerl ist ätzend!". Probably "sucks"
has to be translated using an adjective construction as recommended
in this thread.
> There are of course a lot of German colloquialisms that might be
> used instead, but that is hardly what you ask for.
Correct! Anyway, thanks a lot for your helpful responses, folks!
AWILLIS957
a
>significant degree", "big-time"; I'm not sure this adverbial use of
>"large" is so common (I'm having trouble thinking of anyone I know using
>it), but it is readily understandable.
"Large" is often used this way in England these days by trendy people on the
radio and television, and by gamblers - as in the expression "having it large".
It has also become a verb, in the expression "larging it".
It`s a healthy piece of slang, hinting at joie de vivre, and it contains a
note of self-mockery too, a consciousness of its own absurdity.
The straight word "large" is inert by comparison; good writers avoid it.
Albert
AWILLIS957
>"sucking my love"? I understand this merely figuratively,
>like a vampire would suck your blood without giving anything
>back. However, couldn't it also be a slight insinuation for
>oral sex?
I looked at the various explanations in my slang dictionary and came to the
conclusion that "suck" is one of those words that has attracted nuances from
various sources. Apart from the obvious link with fellatio, which was probably
once considered a more demeaning lark than nowadays, "suck" also seems to be
connected to the sucking in of breath when one is exhausted, and to "sucker" (
a person who is a victim of tricks and plans, the act of tricking him ), or
even to the idea of a parasite (who"sucks up"). Also a baby sucks, and there
may be an element of that packed into the snowball.
The one entry in my dictionary that perplexed me was this: "Sucker (mid 19c+)
an inhabitant of Illinois."
Can anyone - perhaps a sucker from Illinois (if that isn`t a tautology) -
explain that one?
Albert.
Aaron Davies
> - That's a bummer. And it sucks large.
I don't think I've *ever* heard anyone use "large" as an adverb with
"suck". IME, the version below is much more common.
> - It's a pity to hear that. It sucks big time.
--
__ __
/ ) / )
/--/ __. __ ______ / / __. , __o _ _
/ (_(_/|_/ (_(_) / <_ /__/_(_/|_\/ <__</_/_)_
Aaron Davies
I heard once that it had something to do with "suck eggs".
Tony Cooper
> I'm German and I still haven't found a proper translation
> for "suck". There's a colloquial meaning of "suck": to be
> bad and unacceptable. For example: "His new song sucks".
Personally, I don't see how you can translate a colloquialism into
another language and keep the meaning. A translation would be a
literal substitute that would hardly have the same meaning.
For example, "groovy" might be translated to a word that means
"something with long, narrow channels". "cool" to mean something not
warm and so on. None of these convey the meaning of the colloquial
usage of the word translated.
--
Tony Cooper aka: Tony_Co...@Yahoo.com
Provider of Jots & Tittles
daniel gerard mcgrath
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Pal wrote:
>
>> I'm German and I still haven't found a proper translation
>> for "suck". There's a colloquial meaning of "suck": to be
>> bad and unacceptable. For example: "His new song sucks".
>
>Personally, I don't see how you can translate a colloquialism into
>another language and keep the meaning. A translation would be a
>literal substitute that would hardly have the same meaning.
>
Not at all. Do you really think the only possible way to "translate"
<I am 19 years old> into Spanish would be <Soy 19 años viejo> -- or
something similar -- even though <Tengo 19 años> means the same thing?
>For example, "groovy" might be translated to a word that means
>"something with long, narrow channels". "cool" to mean something not
>warm and so on. None of these convey the meaning of the colloquial
>usage of the word translated.
>
That's because you're translating the wrong meaning of "groovy" or
"cool". Recall that a word in a language may have multiple meanings
and that there is no reason to assume that another language must also
use the same word for all meanings.
--------------------------------------------------
daniel g. mcgrath
an avid subscriber to _word ways: the journal of recreational linguistics_
(<URL:http://www.wordways.com/>) and 'alt.usage.english' newsgroup
i have AUTISM -- for more information, please see
<URL:http://www.alt-usage-english.org/McGrath.html>.
John Seeliger
<3b885ea8...@news.ggn.net>...
> On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 21:39:31 -0400, "Tony Cooper"
> <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Pal wrote:
> >
> >> I'm German and I still haven't found a proper translation
> >> for "suck". There's a colloquial meaning of "suck": to be
> >> bad and unacceptable. For example: "His new song sucks".
> >
> >Personally, I don't see how you can translate a colloquialism into
> >another language and keep the meaning. A translation would be a
> >literal substitute that would hardly have the same meaning.
> >
> Not at all. Do you really think the only possible way to "translate"
> something similar -- even though <Tengo 19 ańos> means the same thing?
Besides, even if you despised tener, you wouldn't want to use ser anyway;
you would use estar. One of my college Spanish instructors pointed out
that ser has to do with essence;. He didn't say it, but I assume estar has
the same root as state. 19 years old is only your state. You are not
essentially 19 years old. Although you could say «Soy Daniel» instead of
«Me llamo Daniel» since you are essentially Daniel. This is not just a
state.
Bun Mui
Comments?
Bun Mui
John Seeliger
<pOZh7.1582$Jq6....@news1.mts.net>...
> Hoover?
>
Roosevelt?
Actually, I seem to recall hearing the Hoover used a slogan that said their
vacuums sucked.
While on the subject of vacuums, Roger Clemens once appeared on Late Night
with David Letterman (or was it the late show. I think it was the former)
and the ump wanted to see the baseball to check if Clemens was throwing
spitball or something like that and Clemens said something that got him
thrown out of the game. He told Dave that the other players were reading
his lips from the bench and though he said "Vac-uum."
daniel gerard mcgrath
Well, that just goes to show that I can't speak Spanish fluently. It
may have something to do with the fact that lately I've been more
interested in French, which has only "ętre". And there are probably
some situations where I wouldn't be sure whether to use "ser" or
"estar". But let's not discuss the usages of these verbs in
alt.usage.*english*, please.
At least I checked "viejo" to make sure it was in the correct form, if
the English "old" is analyzed, as I did so, as an adjective describing
myself.
Tom Raven
I did a first aid course a few years ago. The course included treating a
sucking chest wound. I think I said something like "Now, that would really
suck." The instructor thought I was a little too flippant.
Brian J Goggin
Donna Richoux
> The one entry in my dictionary that perplexed me was this: "Sucker (mid 19c+)
> an inhabitant of Illinois."
>
> Can anyone - perhaps a sucker from Illinois (if that isn`t a tautology) -
> explain that one?
It was a fish that arrived seasonally in great numbers. If you check the
a.u.e archives and also the web itself for the key words, you will find
the story told more fully.
The nickname disappeared more or less the same the time the Barnum
"gullible victim" sense of sucker spread across the country; I'm certain
the disappearance is related.
--
Best --- Donna Richoux
Donna Richoux
> >And by the way, is there a hidden ambiguousness when saying:
> >"sucking my love"? I understand this merely figuratively,
> >like a vampire would suck your blood without giving anything
> >back. However, couldn't it also be a slight insinuation for
> >oral sex?
>
> I looked at the various explanations in my slang dictionary and came to the
> conclusion that "suck" is one of those words that has attracted nuances from
> various sources. Apart from the obvious link with fellatio, which was probably
> once considered a more demeaning lark than nowadays,
It was so unthinkably unspeakable that it could never have been hinted
at in decent company. The link to fellatio is a red herring; "that
sucks" came from an entirely different direction. Here is the summary I
have posted at various times, from earlier discussions:
-------
sucks
-------
There are some people (many of them British) who are convinced
this phrase comes from some version of "[Person's name] sucks cock."
However, there are also a fair number of Americans who insist that "That
sucks" never had sexual overtones, and simply meant "of inferior
quality." Documentation is poor and is muddled with other uses of
"suck," but the most relevant source is in the Oxford English Dictionary
as "to suck hind tit":
suck, v c. to suck the hind tit or teat: to be inferior or have
no priority. Also intr. with on. slang (orig. U.S.).
1940 W. V. T. Clark Ox-Bow Incident iv. 244 _Well,' he said, _if
you like to suck the hind tit.'
1951 N. Monsarrat Cruel Sea iii. vi. 179 You have n't a hope._ As
far as radar is concerned, corvettes are sucking on the hind tit.
The meaning and dates are a perfect fit, as is the fact that the "hind
tit" would have been dropped in polite or mixed company, accounting for
why most Americans never heard that part.
Other phrases that use the word "suck" that almost certainly have no
bearing on the question are:
- to teach one's grandmother to suck eggs (i.e. to teach one's elders
what they already know)
- There's nothing worse than an egg-sucking dog (robs hen-houses)
- Go suck an egg (Go jump in the lake, fuck off)
- Sucks to you! (and other British children's expressions)
- sucker (victim, fish, lollipop, etc.)
- to suck wind (apparently a horse ailment)
- miscellaneous and outdated uses
--
Best wishes --- Donna Richoux
Donna Richoux
> Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > It should be noted that not all of us agree that that is the true (or
> > complete) origin of 'sucks'.
>
> I heard once that it had something to do with "suck eggs".
Please see my other post today on the Oxford English Dictionary's entry
on "sucks hind teat." This is so clearly to me the origin of this
phrase, I'm surprised two dozen posts from a.u.e regulars can go by
without its mention. Or perhaps I missed the one who mentioned it?
--
Sternly --- Donna Richoux
Laura F Spira
Glad you're back, Donna, there's one or two round here who've been
misbehaving while you've been gone...
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Laura F Spira
Robert Lieblich
>
> Brian J Goggin wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 03:12:21 GMT, Bun Mui <BunM...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Hoover?
> > >
> > >Comments?
> >
> > Damn.
> >
> That's grand, coolie.
Aswan too many puns for me.
a1a5...@sprint.ca
Damn Democrat followed, you mean?
Richard Fontana
> In article <3b87d607....@news.earthlink.net>,
> dado...@earthlink.net (R H Draney) wrote:
>
> > [...]
> > Apart from a reference to oral sex, what other sources might have
> > spawned this usage?...I can recall a .sig line saying "Shut 'er down,
> > Scotty, she's suckin' mud again!", and there's the occasional allusion
> > to a "sucking wound", but those don't seem likely to have led to "This
> > algebra homework really sucks"....r
>
> I wonder if it ultimately derives from
>
> suck, v c. to suck the hind tit or teat: to be inferior or have
> no priority. Also intr. with on. slang (orig. U.S.).
>
> 1940 W. V. T. Clark Ox-Bow Incident iv. 244 _Well,' he said, _if
> you like to suck the hind tit.'
>
> 1951 N. Monsarrat Cruel Sea iii. vi. 179 You have n't a hope._ As
> far as radar is concerned, corvettes are sucking on the hind tit.
Yes, I think that's a promising theory. It seems plausible that it
contributed to the development of modern "sucks".
AWILLIS957
Crumbs, am I thick? I don`t understand that at all.
Albert
John Seeliger
<3B88F9F9...@Verizon.net>...
I see what you Mead.
AWILLIS957
hope._ As
>> far as radar is concerned, corvettes are sucking on the hind tit.
>
that it
>contributed to the development of modern "sucks".
>
>
The original message asked for tranlations of "sucks", rather than origins.
That`s why there have been so many wildly different suggestions. Whatever the
root of the expression, surely it is evident that "sucks" presently draws
nuances of meaning from a variety of sources?
Perhaps one reason for its popularity is that it can be used in polite society
with the force of a swear word.
Albert.
Bob Cunningham
said:
[...]
>The meaning and dates are a perfect fit, as is the fact that the "hind
>tit" would have been dropped in polite or mixed company, accounting for
>why most Americans never heard that part.
I haven't had occasion to look at a cow's plumbing since 1934, but as
I remember, the hind tits were the biggest. For that reason, I've
long wondered why sucking on the hind tit is all that bad.
Bob Cunningham
>>Hoover?
>>Comments?
>Damn.
>bjg
I wonder if the moo bunny was raising the point that a Hoover, being a
vacuum cleaner, sucks.
Donna Richoux
> In article <3b87d607....@news.earthlink.net>,
> dado...@earthlink.net (R H Draney) wrote:
>
> > [...]
> > Apart from a reference to oral sex, what other sources might have
> > spawned this usage?...I can recall a .sig line saying "Shut 'er down,
> > Scotty, she's suckin' mud again!", and there's the occasional allusion
> > to a "sucking wound", but those don't seem likely to have led to "This
> > algebra homework really sucks"....r
>
> I wonder if it ultimately derives from
>
> suck, v c. to suck the hind tit or teat: to be inferior or have
> no priority. Also intr. with on. slang (orig. U.S.).
>
> 1940 W. V. T. Clark Ox-Bow Incident iv. 244 _Well,' he said, _if
> you like to suck the hind tit.'
>
> 1951 N. Monsarrat Cruel Sea iii. vi. 179 You have n't a hope._ As
> far as radar is concerned, corvettes are sucking on the hind tit.
Yes, Shakib, you were the one to suggest this a couple of years ago, and
I must have pasted it into half a dozen answers since. I'm working my
way up to putting it in the mini-FAQ.
Donna Richoux
Maybe it wasn't a cow. Any pig fanciers here? Dog breeders? It would be
an animal with litters, I should think, where the competition had
significance.
Murray Arnow
Don't punt now; weir not stopping.
Richard Maurer
that of sucking the last 1/8th inch of a milkshake
and making a disagreeable, objectionable sound.
Kids like to do this; then they are told by adults
that it is rude (to adults), so of course the kids like to do it
even more when they get the chance.
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of the homonym of the synonym for also.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer
It seems to me that the "This algebra homework really sucks"
sense became popular after the
"There is no gravity. The Earth sucks"
saying became popular.
Too many years in between for certainty.
Tony Cooper
> >> >Personally, I don't see how you can translate a colloquialism
into
> >> >another language and keep the meaning. A translation would be a
> >> >literal substitute that would hardly have the same meaning.
> >> >
> >> Not at all. Do you really think the only possible way to
"translate"
> >> <I am 19 years old> into Spanish would be <Soy 19 años viejo> --
or
> >> something similar.........
I speak neither Spanish nor German. My point was that I don't see how
you can translate a colloquialism into another language and keep the
same meaning if the other language does not have a colloquialism for
the same word.
The phrase "The homeboy is down to rap" can be translated to present
meaning, but - I don't think - to present colloquialisms with the same
meaning.
--
Tony Cooper aka: Tony_Co...@Yahoo.com
Provider of Jots & Tittles
Tony Cooper
> > > > >Hoover?
> > > > >
> > > > >Comments?
> > > >
> > > > Damn.
> > > >
> > > That's grand, coolie.
> >
> > Aswan too many puns for me.
>
> I see what you Mead.
You people have quite a reservoir of puns. Bun seems to have opened
the flood gates.
John Seeliger
<9mbfsc$gs4$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>...
> John Seeliger wrote:
>
> > > > > >Hoover?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Comments?
> > > > >
> > > > > Damn.
> > > > >
> > > > That's grand, coolie.
> > >
> > > Aswan too many puns for me.
> >
> > I see what you Mead.
>
> You people have quite a reservoir of puns. Bun seems to have opened
> the flood gates.
She can be a Snake at times, but at least she powers our though and spawns
new ideas. (I hope I'm not swimming upstream on this one.)
Donna Richoux
> Another thought:
> It seems to me that the "This algebra homework really sucks"
> sense became popular after the
> "There is no gravity. The Earth sucks"
> saying became popular.
>
> Too many years in between for certainty.
I'm not sure what your point is here. The history of the popularization
and spread of slang phrases is nearly impossible to document; bodies
like the RHHDAS give a good approximation but they haven't published on
"S".
We have an approximate date for the gravity joke:
Gravity is a myth; the Earth sucks. (Men's room, Grumman Aviation,
Long island, New York)
-- _The Encyclopedia of Graffiti_, Robert Reisner and Lorraine
Wechsler, Galahad Books, New York, 1974. p. 259
The same section had other jokes linking physical sucking (as in vacuum
cleaners) to the failing sense. See my post in March of this year.
We obviously don't have a year for your "algebra homework" example. Some
middle-aged people have said they remember using this slang in their
teen years. As for the Simpsons' role in promoting this phrase, I lump
it in with several other words and phrases from Matt Groening's youth
(50s, 60s) that have appeared on the show (although I forget what,
exactly, at the moment).
Richard Fontana
> Another thought:
> It seems to me that the "This algebra homework really sucks"
> sense became popular after the
> "There is no gravity. The Earth sucks"
> saying became popular.
>
> Too many years in between for certainty.
Something important happened in between: the social campaign against
disco. Of course some people were too busy at Studio 54, but I'd contend
that they were not the ones popularizing "sucks".
Richard Fontana
> We obviously don't have a year for your "algebra homework" example. Some
> middle-aged people have said they remember using this slang in their
> teen years. As for the Simpsons' role in promoting this phrase, I lump
> it in with several other words and phrases from Matt Groening's youth
> (50s, 60s) that have appeared on the show (although I forget what,
> exactly, at the moment).
Someone's contending that _The Simpsons_ popularized "sucks"?
That's so ridiculously absurd it's painful!
Donna Richoux
A few minutes with Google retrieved that the highlight of the "disco
sucks" campaign was:
July 12, 1979, This was Disco Demolition Night at
Comiskey Park in Chicago, Illinois.
More details of bonfire, etc, at
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/1392/DiscoSucks.html
So now we have a sketchy timeline that runs:
1940 & 1951: Oxford English Dictionary citations ("hind tit" phrase)
1974: in Encyclopedia of Graffiti (gravity joke)
1979: Disco Sucks campaign by WLUP Radio in Chicago
1989: First Simpsons episode airs
My question is, were people saying "That sucks" in Oregon in late 1950s
and 1960s, when Matt Groening was growing up?
Does anyone have access to the new entries in the OED (the ones with
d'oh and all that)?
--
Best ---- Donna Richoux
Joe Manfre
Yeah but weren't you Brooklynites busy at the 2001 Space Odyssey disco
instead? Maybe youse guys was using the phrase IRONICALLY the way
Primus fans did 15 years later.
Hey, Richard. Richard Fontana, I mean. Donna mentioned the Simpsons
in another post in this thread. A few weeks ago I saw a rerun of the
one where Marge is trying desperately to relate to the kids and asks
Lisa if kids still say "cool" nowadays. And Lisa said of course they
do. This made me think of you and how it might impact your
understanding of the ups and downs of "cool". The important factor
could be that so many of the Simpsons writers are Californian.
JM
--
Joe Manfre, Hyattsville, Maryland.
Donna Richoux
I guess no one has lately, I just dragged it as a benchmark.
> That's so ridiculously absurd it's painful!
Well, yes and no. It depends on what you mean by popularized, I guess.
I'd say it put the word into the everyday vocabulary of a lot of people
who would not have said it before -- we've had reports of that --
including little old ladies, for example, so, yes, it popularized it.
What is absurd is to imply that it began it.
Simon R. Hughes
> >A concise dictionary is like a shot glass of beer.>
>
> Crumbs, am I thick? I don`t understand that at all.
Try "shot-glass of beer" instead of "shot glass-of-beer".
--
Simon R. Hughes -- http://www.geocities.com/a57998/subconscious/
Maria Conlon
>Shakib Otaqui wrote:
>> (R H Draney) wrote:
>> > [...]
>> > Apart from a reference to oral sex, what other sources might have
>> > spawned this usage?...I can recall a .sig line saying "Shut 'er
down,
>> > Scotty, she's suckin' mud again!", and there's the occasional
allusion
>> > to a "sucking wound", but those don't seem likely to have led to
"This
>> > algebra homework really sucks"....r
>> I wonder if it ultimately derives from
>>
>> suck, v c. to suck the hind tit or teat: to be inferior or have
>> no priority. Also intr. with on. slang (orig. U.S.).
>>
>> 1940 W. V. T. Clark Ox-Bow Incident iv. 244 _Well,' he said, _if
>> you like to suck the hind tit.'
>>
>> 1951 N. Monsarrat Cruel Sea iii. vi. 179 You have n't a hope._
As
>> far as radar is concerned, corvettes are sucking on the hind
tit.
>Yes, Shakib, you were the one to suggest this a couple of years ago,
and
>I must have pasted it into half a dozen answers since. I'm working my
>way up to putting it in the mini-FAQ.
>
>Best --- Donna Richoux
And not having seen Shakib's original suggestion (it was probably before
I started posting here), I made the same suggestion myself a while back.
Thanks to Google Groups, here's a copy:
====begin quote====
From: Maria Conlon (mcon...@sprynet.com)
Subject: Re: Bite the Wax Tadpole XXIII
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
View: Complete Thread (25 articles) | Original Format
Date: 1998/06/13
Stephen Barnard wrote in message <3580AF...@megafauna.com>...
>John Davies wrote:
>>
>> Yes, I'm pretty sure Michael Cargal is right. So far as I can
remember,
>> I first came across the American use of "suck" in the early 60s,
>> possibly in "Last Exit to Brooklyn", and certainly later in stories
in
>> "Playboy", and there was never any doubt of its sexual connotation.
>>
>> I should probably also have posted the other two paragraphs on this
>> topic from the FAQ:
>
>"It blows" used to be a common expression, but for some reason "It
>sucks" won out. I wonder why? Maybe because it's more accurate?
>
> Steve Barnard
The last time "sucks" came up here, I offered an opinion, but the
posting never showed up on my reader and perhaps not on anyone else's
either. So I'll risk repeating myself:
I always thought that "sucks" was a shortened form of "sucking hind
tit,"^ an old saying meaning, roughly, to be at a disadvantage. (The
runt of the litter might easily end up sucking hind tit.)
^ I would guess that this came from rural America (farm life). In my
own family, the phrase was considered somewhat "colorful" but not
necessarily unacceptable in mixed company.
BTW, "sucking hind tit" must not be said much any more. When I used
the phrase among friends once (about a year ago), only those my age
(mid-fifties) or older had ever heard it.
Maria Conlon
mcon...@sprynet.com
Email copies of replies will be appreciated.
=======end quote========
The subject has come up several times since then (and will, no doubt,
come up yet again). I'm pretty sure that "sucks hind tit" is the origin
of "that sucks," but as time goes by, fewer and fewer people will have
heard it because it's very seldom said these days.
Including the "sucks = sucks hind tit" theory in the mini FAQ seems like
a good idea.
Now, I'm going to go back to Google and see what on earth "Bite the wax
Tadpole XXIII" referred to...
Maria (Tootsie)
Richard Fontana
> Hey, Richard. Richard Fontana, I mean. Donna mentioned the Simpsons
> in another post in this thread. A few weeks ago I saw a rerun of the
> one where Marge is trying desperately to relate to the kids and asks
> Lisa if kids still say "cool" nowadays. And Lisa said of course they
> do. This made me think of you and how it might impact your
> understanding of the ups and downs of "cool". The important factor
> could be that so many of the Simpsons writers are Californian.
Do we know that for a fact? It's likely, given the size of the population
of California, that a significant number of the writers are
native/raised Californian. However, the writers are funny, suggesting
that they're not Californian.
Joe Manfre
Well, that's an excellent observation and a good question. I always
tend to think of them as Californian since there seem to be so many
La-La-Land references there. I wonder how we can find out, short of
checking every writer's bio at the Internet Movie Database. Maybe
I'll do that tomorrow and let you know what conclusion I come to.
(Alas, I just looked up a few Simpsons writers whose names I knew off
the top of my head and found a birthplace for only one of them -- the
execrable Ian Maxtone-Graham, who it says here is from New York City.)
Richard Fontana
> Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Richard Maurer wrote:
> >
> > > Another thought:
> > > It seems to me that the "This algebra homework really sucks"
> > > sense became popular after the
> > > "There is no gravity. The Earth sucks"
> > > saying became popular.
> > >
> > > Too many years in between for certainty.
> >
> > Something important happened in between: the social campaign against
> > disco. Of course some people were too busy at Studio 54, but I'd contend
> > that they were not the ones popularizing "sucks".
>
> A few minutes with Google retrieved that the highlight of the "disco
> sucks" campaign was:
>
> July 12, 1979, This was Disco Demolition Night at
> Comiskey Park in Chicago, Illinois.
>
> More details of bonfire, etc, at
>
> http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/1392/DiscoSucks.html
>
> So now we have a sketchy timeline that runs:
>
> 1940 & 1951: Oxford English Dictionary citations ("hind tit" phrase)
> 1974: in Encyclopedia of Graffiti (gravity joke)
1977: Song "Disco Sucks" written/performed by Vancouver-based punk
rock band D.O.A. (first recorded in 1978). I believe I once read
something that said that the slogan was already popular in some part of
the infant punk subculture when the song was written.
1978: "Sucks" apparently used in _Animal House_. _Animal House_ was
supposed to have taken place in the early '60s, but probably not much
significance should be attached to that.
Aaron Davies
> Richard Fontana (rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu) wrote:
>
> > On 26 Aug 2001, Joe Manfre wrote:
> >
> >> Hey, Richard. Richard Fontana, I mean. Donna mentioned the Simpsons
> >> in another post in this thread. A few weeks ago I saw a rerun of the
> >> one where Marge is trying desperately to relate to the kids and asks
> >> Lisa if kids still say "cool" nowadays. And Lisa said of course they
> >> do. This made me think of you and how it might impact your
> >> understanding of the ups and downs of "cool". The important factor
> >> could be that so many of the Simpsons writers are Californian.
> >
> > Do we know that for a fact? It's likely, given the size of the population
> > of California, that a significant number of the writers are
> > native/raised Californian. However, the writers are funny, suggesting
> > that they're not Californian.
>
>
> Well, that's an excellent observation and a good question. I always
> tend to think of them as Californian since there seem to be so many
> La-La-Land references there. I wonder how we can find out, short of
> checking every writer's bio at the Internet Movie Database. Maybe
> I'll do that tomorrow and let you know what conclusion I come to.
I'd say it's just as likely that many are from New York. New York
references are quite common too, though sometimes subtler.
--
__ __
/ ) / )
/--/ __. __ ______ / / __. , __o _ _
/ (_(_/|_/ (_(_) / <_ /__/_(_/|_\/ <__</_/_)_
Charles Riggs
I think the expression comes from dogs rather than cows. The runt of
the litter will be found sucking on the hind tit, if he is able to get
to a tit at all, which, I think, is the implication.
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>Aaron Davies <aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com> wrote:
>
>> Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>> >
>> > It should be noted that not all of us agree that that is the true (or
>> > complete) origin of 'sucks'.
>>
>> I heard once that it had something to do with "suck eggs".
>
>Please see my other post today on the Oxford English Dictionary's entry
>on "sucks hind teat."
That does not appear as an entry in my copy.
>This is so clearly to me the origin of this
>phrase, I'm surprised two dozen posts from a.u.e regulars can go by
>without its mention. Or perhaps I missed the one who mentioned it?
Who mentioned what I'm not sure but the expression "That sucks" comes
directly from "That sucks dick"; I grew up in America during the time
it began making the transition, so I know. I'm not claiming that
people of today, especially some young people, use the expression with
fellatio in mind but I am claiming that the majority of the people who
popularized the phrase never heard of "suck eggs" or, especially,
"sucks hind teat". The latter phrase, even if people were aware of it,
doesn't have the same meaning as "It sucks" so it can't be the origin.
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>It was so unthinkably unspeakable that it could never have been hinted
>at in decent company.
Fellatio has been far from unspeakable in modern times. It is
acceptable, and has been for fifty years, by most all but the most
uptight or those from the lower classes. It is still taboo among some
Blacks in America, but I diverge.
>The link to fellatio is a red herring; "that
>sucks" came from an entirely different direction. Here is the summary I
>have posted at various times, from earlier discussions:
I'll trust my own memory and the citations from the OED first, thank
you.
>-------
>sucks
>-------
>
>There are some people (many of them British) who are convinced
>this phrase comes from some version of "[Person's name] sucks cock."
>However, there are also a fair number of Americans who insist that "That
>sucks" never had sexual overtones, and simply meant "of inferior
>quality."
Are these Americans over 45? "It sucks", before about 1960, never had
the meaning of inferior quality. It gradually started making the
transition, during that era, from "John sucks dick" to "John sucks"
and, later, to "[any object or person] sucks" but it was just a
convenient and, slightly more polite, way of saying, "[any object or
person] sucks dick", or "cock", if you prefer.
>Documentation is poor and is muddled with other uses of
>"suck," but the most relevant source is in the Oxford English Dictionary
>as "to suck hind tit":
Look again at the OED and you will find this to be the relevant
passage, found under suck(v):
f. (See quot. 1960.) With person or part as obj. Cf. sense 24 below.
coarse slang.
1928 in A. W. Read Lexical Evidence from Folk Epigraphy Western N.
Amer. (1935) 78, I suck cocks for fun. 1960 Wentworth & Flexner Dict.
Amer. Slang 527/2 Suck v.i., v.t. 1 [taboo] to perform cunnilingus or,
esp., fellatio. 1972 Screw 12 June 21/2 Characters fuck and suck each
other like real people do. 1973 E. Bullins Theme is Blackness 79 You
heard what I said, bitch+take me to dinner and suck mah dick and et
cetera fa dessert.
>suck, v c. to suck the hind tit or teat: to be inferior or have
> no priority. Also intr. with on. slang (orig. U.S.).
>
> 1940 W. V. T. Clark Ox-Bow Incident iv. 244 _Well,' he said, _if
> you like to suck the hind tit.'
>
> 1951 N. Monsarrat Cruel Sea iii. vi. 179 You have n't a hope._ As
> far as radar is concerned, corvettes are sucking on the hind tit.
`Nother subject altogether and one having nothing to do with "That
sucks".
>The meaning and dates are a perfect fit, as is the fact that the "hind
>tit" would have been dropped in polite or mixed company, accounting for
>why most Americans never heard that part.
And why it is not how the expression came about.
>Other phrases that use the word "suck" that almost certainly have no
>bearing on the question are:
>
> - to teach one's grandmother to suck eggs (i.e. to teach one's elders
>what they already know)
> - There's nothing worse than an egg-sucking dog (robs hen-houses)
> - Go suck an egg (Go jump in the lake, fuck off)
> - Sucks to you! (and other British children's expressions)
> - sucker (victim, fish, lollipop, etc.)
> - to suck wind (apparently a horse ailment)
> - miscellaneous and outdated uses
Here you're correct. These are unrelated.
Charles Riggs
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
[...]
> Look again at the OED and you will find this to be the relevant
> passage, found under suck(v):
>
> f. (See quot. 1960.) With person or part as obj. Cf. sense 24 below.
> coarse slang.
>
> 1928 in A. W. Read Lexical Evidence from Folk Epigraphy Western N.
> Amer. (1935) 78, I suck cocks for fun.
This graffito was recorded by Prof. Allen Walker Read in a toilet in
Snoqualmie Falls, Washington, on July 28, 1928.
His above-mentioned book was published for the first time in the USA in
1977 by Maledicta Press with the new title _Classic American Graffiti_.
See:
http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/graffiti.html
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Editor & Publisher & Shameless Plugger
Ben Zimmer
George Meyer, who's credited with shaping the show's comedic
sensibility, grew up in Arizona. (The New Yorker did a big profile on
him: http://www.nohomers.net/info/interviews/meyer.shtml)
Meyer, like many other Simpsons writers (e.g. Conan O'Brien, from
Brookline, Mass.), went to Harvard and wrote for the Lampoon.
ObSimpson'sQuote:
Bart: "These shorts suck!"
Marge: "Bart, where did you learn that type of language?"
Homer: (on the phone) "Yeah, Moe, they sure did suck last night. I've
seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that
ever sucked."
Marge: "Homer!"
--Ben
Richard Fontana
> Who mentioned what I'm not sure but the expression "That sucks" comes
> directly from "That sucks dick"; I grew up in America during the time
> it began making the transition, so I know. I'm not claiming that
> people of today, especially some young people, use the expression with
> fellatio in mind but I am claiming that the majority of the people who
> popularized the phrase never heard of "suck eggs" or, especially,
> "sucks hind teat". The latter phrase, even if people were aware of it,
> doesn't have the same meaning as "It sucks" so it can't be the origin.
What's lacking is proof that documented 1970s usages like "the Earth
sucks" or "disco sucks" involves the same expression as "suck" in "suck
dick", or that "*that* sucks dick" (said of a *thing*) was *ever* used
before "that sucks" became popular (much as, I believe, "bites" and
"blows" were popularized only *after* "sucks" had been popularized and
*after* a sexual folk etymology had emerged to explain the origin of "that
sucks". I think we do have evidence of third-person "sucks hind
teat" -- said of *things* -- being used before the 1970s.
I don't understand why you think that "sucks hind teat" doesn't mean,
essentially, the same thing as modern "sucks". There seems to me to be a
huger gap between "you suck [dick, etc.]" and "disco sucks", and I was
growing up at a time when both of those expressions were in wide use -- by
distinct groups of people. Actually, I don't remember use of "that sucks
dick" or "you suck dick" at all, when I was a kid; I do remember an
imperative expression "suck my dick" which had essentially no meaning
other than something like "you are worthy of insult or damnation".
Someone, who was skeptical about skepticism on this issue, pointed out
that "bugger" in BrE is used today in very mild, non-maledictous
contexts. But I think there's a difference. "Bugger" expressions, no
matter how polite they may seem today, can only have had
one origin. It's not like anyone contends that "bugger" independently
arose from, say, "to bug" = "to vex, annoy, act like an insect". There's
no equivalent to "sucks hind teat", a non-sexual traditional idiom close
in meaning to modern usages of "bugger".
Richard Fontana
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:51:27 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
> wrote:
> >The link to fellatio is a red herring; "that
> >sucks" came from an entirely different direction. Here is the summary I
> >have posted at various times, from earlier discussions:
>
> I'll trust my own memory and the citations from the OED first, thank
> you.
>
> >-------
> >sucks
> >-------
> >
> >There are some people (many of them British) who are convinced
> >this phrase comes from some version of "[Person's name] sucks cock."
> >However, there are also a fair number of Americans who insist that "That
> >sucks" never had sexual overtones, and simply meant "of inferior
> >quality."
>
> Are these Americans over 45? "It sucks", before about 1960, never had
> the meaning of inferior quality. It gradually started making the
> transition, during that era, from "John sucks dick" to "John sucks"
> and, later, to "[any object or person] sucks" but it was just a
> convenient and, slightly more polite, way of saying, "[any object or
> person] sucks dick", or "cock", if you prefer.
There doesn't seem to be any documentary evidence of a usage like "John
sucks" from before 1970, so I assume you're relying on your memory
here. If you're remembering some usage involving "suck" or "sucks", said
only of *people* and not *things*, and not suggesting "inferior quality",
I contend that you're remembering some unrelated expression.
If people in 1959 were already saying "[any object] sucks", and it did not
mean "[any object] is of inferior quality", then what exactly did "it
sucks" mean in 1959? Because the meaning of "disco sucks" (1977) is quite
clear, and there seems to me to have been *no change* in meaning from 1977
to 2001 in the meaning of "[thing] sucks".
> >Documentation is poor and is muddled with other uses of
> >"suck," but the most relevant source is in the Oxford English Dictionary
> >as "to suck hind tit":
>
> Look again at the OED and you will find this to be the relevant
> passage, found under suck(v):
>
> f. (See quot. 1960.) With person or part as obj. Cf. sense 24 below.
> coarse slang.
>
> 1928 in A. W. Read Lexical Evidence from Folk Epigraphy Western N.
> Amer. (1935) 78, I suck cocks for fun. 1960 Wentworth & Flexner Dict.
> Amer. Slang 527/2 Suck v.i., v.t. 1 [taboo] to perform cunnilingus or,
> esp., fellatio. 1972 Screw 12 June 21/2 Characters fuck and suck each
> other like real people do. 1973 E. Bullins Theme is Blackness 79 You
> heard what I said, bitch+take me to dinner and suck mah dick and et
> cetera fa dessert.
Where's the modern usage of "suck" as in "it sucks" there? All of those
usages have to do with fellatio.
>
> >suck, v c. to suck the hind tit or teat: to be inferior or have
> > no priority. Also intr. with on. slang (orig. U.S.).
> >
> > 1940 W. V. T. Clark Ox-Bow Incident iv. 244 _Well,' he said, _if
> > you like to suck the hind tit.'
> >
> > 1951 N. Monsarrat Cruel Sea iii. vi. 179 You have n't a hope._ As
> > far as radar is concerned, corvettes are sucking on the hind tit.
>
> `Nother subject altogether and one having nothing to do with "That
> sucks".
Then what does "that sucks" mean to you if it doesn't mean "that is of bad
quality"? I suspect that you remember a general insulting usage like
"John sucks dick" from the 1950s (strange, given that you say there was a
revolution in attitudes towards fellatio after 1949) that is unrelated to
the later expression "that sucks" which obviously means the same thing as
"that sucks hind tit".
You've provided no evidence, based on memory or historical documents, that
modern "that sucks" is connected with "to suck dick". If anything, your
failure to see the obvious similarity in meaning between "suck hind
tit" and "that sucks" strengthens the thesis that "that sucks" comes from
"that sucks hind tit".
Donna Richoux
> Are these Americans over 45? "It sucks", before about 1960, never had
> the meaning of inferior quality. It gradually started making the
> transition, during that era, from "John sucks dick" to "John sucks"
> and, later, to "[any object or person] sucks" but it was just a
> convenient and, slightly more polite, way of saying, "[any object or
> person] sucks dick", or "cock", if you prefer.
Hello, Charles. I think I have to make clearer that I see "He sucks" and
"She sucks" as being completely separate, historically, from
"That/It/This-inanimate-object sucks". I'm saying they have separate
historical origins, although once they came into general use, they were
confused and tainted by one another.
I'm trying not to get you riled up here, Charles. Your posts I've seen
from my absence have been so courteous and thoughtful, I'm afraid it
must be me who gets on your wrong side.
> Look again at the OED and you will find this to be the relevant
> passage, found under suck(v):
>
> f. (See quot. 1960.) With person or part as obj. Cf. sense 24 below.
> coarse slang.
>
> 1928 in A. W. Read Lexical Evidence from Folk Epigraphy Western N.
> Amer. (1935) 78, I suck cocks for fun. 1960 Wentworth & Flexner Dict.
> Amer. Slang 527/2 Suck v.i., v.t. 1 [taboo] to perform cunnilingus or,
> esp., fellatio. 1972 Screw 12 June 21/2 Characters fuck and suck each
> other like real people do. 1973 E. Bullins Theme is Blackness 79 You
> heard what I said, bitch+take me to dinner and suck mah dick and et
> cetera fa dessert.
Practically none of what I have said is about the "He sucks" or "She
sucks" categories. I can well accept that "He sucks dick" or "He sucks
cock" are insults with their own histories. I imagine that the history
for the female form is slightly different but still an insult. As for
other sayings, such as the belligerent "suck mah dick" and to "suck up"
to someone and on and on, well, there are many uses of the verb.
> >suck, v c. to suck the hind tit or teat: to be inferior or have
> > no priority. Also intr. with on. slang (orig. U.S.).
> >
> > 1940 W. V. T. Clark Ox-Bow Incident iv. 244 _Well,' he said, _if
> > you like to suck the hind tit.'
> >
> > 1951 N. Monsarrat Cruel Sea iii. vi. 179 You have n't a hope._ As
> > far as radar is concerned, corvettes are sucking on the hind tit.
>
> `Nother subject altogether and one having nothing to do with "That
> sucks".
"That sucks" *is* my subject, *yours* was another subject altogether.
And my central claim, which you cannot disprove, is that the US phrase
"That sucks" meaning "that is of bad quality" did historically come from
this phrase -- whether people have forgotten it or not (and they have).
I will try to rewrite that proposed "sucks" entry so that it makes
clearer that it is more about "That sucks" and less about the "He
sucks/she sucks" uses.
Richard Fontana
the D.O.A. song), and evidence that the t-shirts were being worn in that
year:
Maybe if I had told them Donna Summer was dead I might have gotten a
reaction; I do recall walking in this neighborhood wearing a T-shirt that
said "Disco Sucks" with a vast unamused muttering in my wake, which only
goes to show that not for everyone was Elvis the still-reigning King of
Rock 'n' Roll, in fact not for everyone is rock 'n' roll the
still-reigning music.
Lester Bangs, _The Village Voice_, Aug. 29, 1977
Rowan Dingle
>This graffito was recorded by Prof. Allen Walker Read in a toilet in
>Snoqualmie Falls, Washington, on July 28, 1928.
>
>His above-mentioned book was published for the first time in the USA in
>1977 by Maledicta Press with the new title _Classic American Graffiti_.
>See:
>
> http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/graffiti.html
Dr W. V. Davies of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth, has been
awarded UKP105,234 to study 'The history and current status of "bad
language" as a concept in German folk linguistics'.
http://www.ahrb.ac.uk/newsevents/research.html?awardid=59
Another fat cheque gone to another clueless minnow?
(What is/are 'folk linguistics'? A technical term? Or does Dr D just
mean 'everyday speech'?)
--
Rowan Dingle
Matti Lamprhey
> [...]
> I will try to rewrite that proposed "sucks" entry so that it makes
> clearer that it is more about "That sucks" and less about the "He
> sucks/she sucks" uses.
I'm with Richard in that I fail to see a distinction. I consider that all
the "I/you/he/she/it sucks" usages derive from the hindmost tit (and may be
connected to sucking wind), and are fundamentally distinct from the
injunction to "suck my dick".
Have you considered the noun usage mentioned in NSOED as follows:
7. a deception; a disappointing event or result. _arch. slang_ M19.
Matti
Donna Richoux
> "Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote...
> > [...]
> > I will try to rewrite that proposed "sucks" entry so that it makes
> > clearer that it is more about "That sucks" and less about the "He
> > sucks/she sucks" uses.
>
> I'm with Richard in that I fail to see a distinction. I consider that all
> the "I/you/he/she/it sucks" usages derive from the hindmost tit (and may be
> connected to sucking wind), and are fundamentally distinct from the
> injunction to "suck my dick".
Well, as to the "he" and "she" being distinct. I think there *was* a
descriptive phrase, graffiti such as "Sue sucks," either meaning "For a
good time, consider Sue" or "Sue is a slut", that was directly related
to sexual use. I hate to parade my primness but the truth is I really
have very little first-hand experience with such language. Other people,
like John Davies, have testified to the masculine side, where I suppose
"Joe sucks" is an insult because it means Joe is a homosexual, or in a
homosexual relationship takes the submissive role, or whatever.
In neither case was the phrase ever a roundabout way of saying that Joe
or Sue are the runt of the litter.
(Sorry to our resident Joe -- I'm having trouble thinking of a common,
neutral man's name that is not represented here.)
>
> Have you considered the noun usage mentioned in NSOED as follows:
> 7. a deception; a disappointing event or result. _arch. slang_ M19.
That sounds familiar; the Pocket Dictionary of American Slang had an
elusive reference to a vanished 19th century usage. I'll look it up
again. But meanwhile, what does "arch." stand for there, please? Also,
exactly what part of speech is it referring to? In what form? I wouldn't
expect NSOED to quote a full citation, but maybe someone can locate the
corresponding OED entry.
I wonder if the one you refer to was "That's sucks." The British used
"sucks" in various ways that are foreign to my ear, a sort of mysterious
childhood noun. Yah-boo-sucks and so on. Sucky, too.
Ben Zimmer
This may have been posted already, but here are the relevant citations
from OED2, all post-1970:
-----------
suck, v.
III. 15. f. To be contemptible or disgusting. slang. Cf. SUCK n.1 12.
1971 It 2-16 June 3/2 Polaroid sucks! For some time the Polaroid
Corporation has been supplying the South African government with large
photo systems..to use for photographing blacks for the passbooks..every
black must carry. 1976 G. V. HIGGINS Judgment of Deke Hunter vi. 59, I
had a lousy summer... I thought it sucked, and I bet next summer'll suck
too. 1978 M. GORDON Final Payments xi. 193 All the hotels have the same
pictures. The last one, the food sucked.
------------
This is the cross-referenced definiton of "suck" as a noun:
------------
suck, n.1
12. Canad. slang. A worthless or contemptible person. Cf. SUCK v. 15f;
suck-hole s.v. SUCK-.
1974 Globe & Mail (Toronto) 8 Mar. 1/6 The teachers are copping out.
They're now saying, if we can't have our way, then we're going to be
sucks and refuse to work. 1975 Citizen (Ottawa) 28 Oct. 1/1 A neighbor
described Rob as ‘a quiet guy who was always getting put down a lot.
Lots of people used to call him a suck... He didn't do much socially or
in the way of sports.’
------------
--Ben
Donna Richoux
> ObSimpson'sQuote:
> Bart: "These shorts suck!"
> Marge: "Bart, where did you learn that type of language?"
> Homer: (on the phone) "Yeah, Moe, they sure did suck last night. I've
> seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that
> ever sucked."
> Marge: "Homer!"
Ben, do you happen to have the episode number or date for this? I'm sure
I could search it out myself, but I thought you might have it handy.
I'll save it with my other citations for "suck."
--
Thanks --- Donna Richoux
Ben Zimmer
Donna Richoux wrote:
>
> Matti Lamprhey <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>
> > Have you considered the noun usage mentioned in NSOED as follows:
> > 7. a deception; a disappointing event or result. _arch. slang_ M19.
>
> That sounds familiar; the Pocket Dictionary of American Slang had an
> elusive reference to a vanished 19th century usage. I'll look it up
> again. But meanwhile, what does "arch." stand for there, please? Also,
> exactly what part of speech is it referring to? In what form? I wouldn't
> expect NSOED to quote a full citation, but maybe someone can locate the
> corresponding OED entry.
>
> I wonder if the one you refer to was "That's sucks." The British used
> "sucks" in various ways that are foreign to my ear, a sort of mysterious
> childhood noun. Yah-boo-sucks and so on. Sucky, too.
Here's the OED2 entry on "sucks":
---------
suck, n.1
11. pl. as int. Used as an expression of contempt, chiefly by children.
Also in phr. sucks to you and varr. slang.
1913 C. MACKENZIE Sinister Street I. I. vii. 98 This kid's in our
army, so sucks! 1922 F. HAMILTON P.J.: Secret Service Boy iv. 178 ‘S’,
he announced, ‘u,c,k,s,t,o,y,o,u.’ 1935 N. MITCHISON We have been Warned
I. 28 Brian is a baby. Oh sucks, oh sucks on Brian. 1945 E. WAUGH
Brideshead Revisited II. v. 287 It's great sucks to Bridey. 1952 ‘C.
BRAND’ London Particular xv. 191 A most regretable air of sucks to you.
1968 Melody Maker 30 Nov. 24/5 This is a rotten record--yah boo and
sucks. 1974 Times 4 Mar. 9/5 Sucks boo, then, with acting like this, to
that new National Theatre down the road. 1978 ‘J. LYMINGTON’ Waking of
Stone ii. 45 ‘Sucks to you!’ she said..tossing her head so her pigtails
swung. 1983 Listener 19 May 11/1 The council treated the urbane Mr Cook
to the politician's equivalent of ‘Yah, boo, sucks’.
---------
The Brideshead Revisited quote is interesting-- so, could the phrase
have evolved from "it's sucks" to "it sucks"?
--Ben
Matti Lamprhey
> Matti Lamprhey <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
> > "Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote...
> > > [...]
> > > I will try to rewrite that proposed "sucks" entry so that it makes
> > > clearer that it is more about "That sucks" and less about the "He
> > > sucks/she sucks" uses.
> >
> > I'm with Richard in that I fail to see a distinction. I consider that
> > all the "I/you/he/she/it sucks" usages derive from the hindmost tit
> > (and may be connected to sucking wind), and are fundamentally distinct
> > from the injunction to "suck my dick".
>
> Well, as to the "he" and "she" being distinct. I think there *was* a
> descriptive phrase, graffiti such as "Sue sucks," either meaning "For a
> good time, consider Sue" or "Sue is a slut", that was directly related
> to sexual use. I hate to parade my primness but the truth is I really
> have very little first-hand experience with such language. Other people,
> like John Davies, have testified to the masculine side, where I suppose
> "Joe sucks" is an insult because it means Joe is a homosexual, or in a
> homosexual relationship takes the submissive role, or whatever.
>
> In neither case was the phrase ever a roundabout way of saying that Joe
> or Sue are the runt of the litter.
>
> (Sorry to our resident Joe -- I'm having trouble thinking of a common,
> neutral man's name that is not represented here.)
I'm not disputing that such graffiti existed, and that they are clearly
implying fellatio rather than runticity -- but I would have thought the
*origin* is still the runt. After all, we have evidence of persons
described as sucking hind tit, and I can't believe these postdate the
fellatio references, _pace_ Charles.
> > Have you considered the noun usage mentioned in NSOED as follows:
> > 7. a deception; a disappointing event or result. _arch. slang_ M19.
>
> That sounds familiar; the Pocket Dictionary of American Slang had an
> elusive reference to a vanished 19th century usage. I'll look it up
> again. But meanwhile, what does "arch." stand for there, please? Also,
> exactly what part of speech is it referring to? In what form? I wouldn't
> expect NSOED to quote a full citation, but maybe someone can locate the
> corresponding OED entry.
"Arch." means archaic. The part of speech was noun, but NSOED gives no
quote, unfortunately. It would indeed be useful to complete that citation
using the OED.
>
> I wonder if the one you refer to was "That's sucks." The British used
> "sucks" in various ways that are foreign to my ear, a sort of mysterious
> childhood noun. Yah-boo-sucks and so on. Sucky, too.
No, that's a different entry in NSOED:
10. In plural as interjection: Expressing disappointment, or amusement or
derision at another's discomfiture (colloquial E20) "Sucks to you!" she
said, tossing her head so her pigtails swung.
NSOED gives "sucky" as "chiefly N.American slang". There seems to be no
connection between this and the British "sucks" noun.
Matti
Richard Fontana
> "Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote...
> >
> > I wonder if the one you refer to was "That's sucks." The British used
> > "sucks" in various ways that are foreign to my ear, a sort of mysterious
> > childhood noun. Yah-boo-sucks and so on. Sucky, too.
>
> No, that's a different entry in NSOED:
> 10. In plural as interjection: Expressing disappointment, or amusement or
> derision at another's discomfiture (colloquial E20) "Sucks to you!" she
> said, tossing her head so her pigtails swung.
>
> NSOED gives "sucky" as "chiefly N.American slang". There seems to be no
> connection between this and the British "sucks" noun.
"Sucky" seems to just derive from "[that] sucks". If I'm not mistaken,
the earliest printed citations for "sucky" postdate those for
"sucks". Something is "sucky" if it "sucks".
Richard Fontana
I really don't think that's likely.
Ben Zimmer
Donna Richoux wrote:
>
> Ben Zimmer <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> > ObSimpsonsQuote:
> > Bart: "These shorts suck!"
> > Marge: "Bart, where did you learn that type of language?"
> > Homer: (on the phone) "Yeah, Moe, they sure did suck last night. I've
> > seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that
> > ever sucked."
> > Marge: "Homer!"
>
> Ben, do you happen to have the episode number or date for this? I'm sure
> I could search it out myself, but I thought you might have it handy.
> I'll save it with my other citations for "suck."
The Simpsons Archives says it's from episode 3F10 ("Team Homer"), first
aired 01/07/96 (http://www.snpp.com/episodes/3F10.html). Sorry, I see
my quote was a little off-- here's how the Simpsons experts transcribe
it:
--------
Bart: [whining] Mom, my slingshot doesn't fit in these pockets.
And these shorts leave nothing to the imagination. These
uniforms suck!
Marge: Bart! Where do you pick up words like that?
Homer: [on phone] Yeah, Moe, that team sure did suck last night.
They just plain sucked! I've seen teams suck before, but
they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked.
Marge: Homer! Watch your mouth!
--------
An earlier episode also alluded to the show's use of "suck" ("Homer
Defined," 10/17/1991, http://www.snpp.com/episodes/8F04.html):
--------
Mrs. Van Houten: Well, Marge, the other day, Milhouse told me my
meatloaf `sucks'. He must've gotten that from your little boy, because
they certainly <don't> say that on TV.
--------
The joke here is not just about the Simpsons, I think. A Nexis search
shows that around 1990 (when the first Simpsons season was airing) a lot
of prime-time shows were starting to use "suck". Roseanne Barr may have
been the pioneer (c. 1988), but in 1990 there was a minor controversy
over the CBS sitcom "Uncle Buck," which began its first episode with a
little girl shouting "You suck!" Here's a relevant quote from the
Washington Post ("Fall's Off-Color; Ruder, Cruder Talk For the New
Season," Sept. 4, 1990):
--------
There are signs that "sucks," meanwhile, will be something of a byword
this season. David Letterman has been saying "Steinbrenner Sucks" for
years, but his show airs in late night. Now the term turns up in
prime-time shows like the recently aired premiere of NBC's medical
anthology "Lifestories." A doctor asked a cancer patient, "So, life
sucks?" The patient replied, "Life has never so totally sucked."
--------
What about movies? Richard mentioned "suck" appearing in "Animal House"
in 1978 (any quotes?). The earliest use I can find on IMDB (skipping
over, er, anatomical uses in "The Exorcist" and "Slap-Shot") is from
"...And Justice for All" (1979) with Al Pacino and Jack Warden
(http://us.imdb.com/Quotes?0078718):
--------
Arthur Kirkland: At this point, I would just like to say that what this
committee is doing in theory is highly commendable. However, in
practice, it sucks... and I'm not going to answer any more questions.
Judge Rayford: I found out what the meaning of life is.
Arthur Kirkland: What's that?
Judge Rayford: It sucks.
--------
--Ben
Ben Zimmer
Yup. OED2 again:
------------
sucky, a.
4. Disagreeable or contemptible; obnoxious or unpleasant. Cf. SUCK v. 15
f. slang (orig. and chiefly U.S.).
1984 A. F. LOEWENSTEIN This Place 8 She always..showed up for her
sucky state job on time. 1987 San Jose (California) Mercury News 14 Oct.
9 Friday's a sucky day to have Chinese school. 1991 Chicago Tribune 20
Feb. VII. 18/4 What is the poor fellow going to have left in his verbal
quiver later in life when he encounters something truly ‘sucky’such as
an Internal Revenue Service audit or being drafted into the army.
------------
--Ben
Donna Richoux
I agree. Even if it was a foreign borrowing (US to UK or v.v.) it's hard
for a word to completely change its part of speech without someone
noticing. Even the classic folk-etymology transformations that I can
think of (sparrow-grass for asparagus) tend to keep the same part of
speech. Can anyone think different? French borrowings, I suppose, a
parlay-vous, a rendezvous.
Enticing on the face of it, though.
Donna Richoux
> "Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote...
> > Matti Lamprhey <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
> > > Have you considered the noun usage mentioned in NSOED as follows:
> > > 7. a deception; a disappointing event or result. _arch. slang_ M19.
> >
> > That sounds familiar; the Pocket Dictionary of American Slang had an
> > elusive reference to a vanished 19th century usage. I'll look it up
> > again. But meanwhile, what does "arch." stand for there, please? Also,
> > exactly what part of speech is it referring to? In what form? I wouldn't
> > expect NSOED to quote a full citation, but maybe someone can locate the
> > corresponding OED entry.
>
> "Arch." means archaic.
D'oh, as Homer says. Where was my brain.
> The part of speech was noun, but NSOED gives no
> quote, unfortunately. It would indeed be useful to complete that citation
> using the OED.
Perhaps Ben will check, since he seems to have access. This is great,
getting all these quick answers!
Meanwhile, back at my dictionaries. The 1968 volume mentioned above has
a variety of historical meanings for suck. Some are in the "suck
up"/teacher's pet camp. Some are in the likely
victim/fan/sucker/deception category. About the only unusual use I can
see now is that there used to be a transitive verb, to suck someone,
meaning to trick them. That's quite close to your noun, deception. It
also resembles "to be sucked in."
Checking the 1938 Dictionary of American English, I find, among other
definitions, "a trick," and the elegant example:
1847 Knickerb. XXIX The elongated countenance of
the discomfitted gambler required no additional
evidence to testify his appreciation of "the suck."
The quote marks make me think that this was specialized talk then,
perhaps part of the swindler's jargon.
Given a lack of connection to the 20th century, and also a lack of any
element of deception necessary in the modern "That sucks," I suspect
this is just another coincidence.
Ben Zimmer
Donna Richoux wrote:
>
> Matti Lamprhey <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>
> > "Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote...
> > > Matti Lamprhey <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Have you considered the noun usage mentioned in NSOED as follows:
> > > > 7. a deception; a disappointing event or result. _arch. slang_ M19.
> > >
> > > That sounds familiar; the Pocket Dictionary of American Slang had an
> > > elusive reference to a vanished 19th century usage. I'll look it up
> > > again. But meanwhile, what does "arch." stand for there, please? Also,
> > > exactly what part of speech is it referring to? In what form? I wouldn't
> > > expect NSOED to quote a full citation, but maybe someone can locate the
> > > corresponding OED entry.
> >
> > "Arch." means archaic.
>
> D'oh, as Homer says. Where was my brain.
>
> > The part of speech was noun, but NSOED gives no
> > quote, unfortunately. It would indeed be useful to complete that citation
> > using the OED.
>
> Perhaps Ben will check, since he seems to have access. This is great,
> getting all these quick answers!
Happy to oblige:
-------------
suck, n.1
7. slang. A deception; a disappointing event or result. Also suck-in.
1856 DOW Serm. II. 316 (Bartlett) A monstrous humbuga grand suck in.
1872 SCHELE DE VERE Americanisms 639 Suck in, as a noun and as a verb,
is a graphic Western phrase to express deception. 1877 N.W. Linc.
Gloss., Suck, Suck-in, an imposition, a disappointment.
-------------
(Certainly others have access to http://dictionary.oed.com via
university servers and the like?)
--Ben
Matti Lamprhey
> > > Matti Lamprhey <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Have you considered the noun usage mentioned in NSOED as follows:
> > > > 7. a deception; a disappointing event or result. _arch. slang_
M19.
> Given a lack of connection to the 20th century, and also a lack of any
> element of deception necessary in the modern "That sucks," I suspect
> this is just another coincidence.
I agree about the deception bit, but "disappointing event or result"? That
sounds extremely close to the generic "that sucks" usage.
Matti
Ben Zimmer
Ben Zimmer wrote:
>
> -------------
> suck, n.1
> 7. slang. A deception; a disappointing event or result. Also suck-in.
>
> 1856 DOW Serm. II. 316 (Bartlett) A monstrous humbuga grand suck in.
This lost an em dash. Should read: "A monstrous humbug--a grand suck
Donna Richoux
You're right about that. When I thought about it again, I agree that
"That disappoints" is certainly close to the modern meaning. Now if
there is just some evidence that the meaning stayed alive (maybe in
rural backwaters) from the late 1800s to the mid-1900s...
Oh, and we'd have to have some evidence of how it made the grammatical
transition. We have "a suck" and "to suck someone" and "to be sucked
(in)" but not "that sucks." Plus can we account for that odd lack of
transitivity or prepositional phrase -- not sucks on a thing, or sucks
up a thing, but merely sucks. The euphemistic impulse that censors
"sucks hind tit" explains the brevity there.
Yours is tough to prove, as a theory, but I can't rule it out.
Richard Fontana
What's important is that it shows that a slang usage of "suck" with a
negative meaning *could have arisen* without being based on a fellatio or
other sexual allusion.
Richard Fontana
> What about movies? Richard mentioned "suck" appearing in "Animal House"
> in 1978 (any quotes?).
We had a brief discussion about this in March of this year. I'd been
watching a 1981 movie with Bill Murray -- I think it was _Stripes_ -- and
I noticed that "[thing] sucks" was used in the dialogue. So I asked
whether people knew of pre-1981 cinematic usages. R.J. Valentine
suggested that _Animal House_ may have had the earliest usage. No one
directly confirmed this, but Jack Gavin quoted the "companion book" to the
movie:
3. Bluto speaks: "I'm too fuckin' depressed. My love life
sucks." (p. 19)
But then John Lupton said that there was a movie that had the odd
"gravity" joke in it:
I don't recall the title of the movie, but there was one from circa
1970 or so in which there is a scene of a hand holding an apple, into
which has been carved "There is no gravity" - the hand turns the apple
around, and carved on the other side is "The Earth sucks"
And he followed up that with:
======
Having had a couple or three hours to think about it, I think the film
I'm talking about is "Getting Straight", a coming-of-age-in-college
movie from 1970 that featured Eliott Gould and Candice Bergen.
I could be wrong, though...
======
Ben Zimmer
Yes, he could be wrong. A little Googling turned this up:
-------------
http://www.decware.com/forums/General/posts/4193.html
Jonathan, not that my post has anything to do with audio in any way, but
the last sentence in your post reminds of the opening scene in an old
student protest movie from about 1970. (Yes, I saw it when it came out;
and, no, I'm not telling my age.) The title of the movie is "The
Strawberry Statement".
Anyway, the opening scene of this movie showed an apple being passed
around between students many, many times over a large expanse of campus
at this fictional university (supposedly based on Columbia U.) Someone
had carved a message in the peeling of the apple; after it had changed
hands god-knows-how-many times, the camera finally gets a close-up of
the apple. The message carved in the peeling was: There is no gravity.
The earth sucks.
-------------
More info on "The Strawberry Statement" (1970) at
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0066415 .
--Ben
Charles Riggs
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>There doesn't seem to be any documentary evidence of a usage like "John
>sucks" from before 1970, so I assume you're relying on your memory
>here. If you're remembering some usage involving "suck" or "sucks", said
>only of *people* and not *things*, and not suggesting "inferior quality",
>I contend that you're remembering some unrelated expression.
I'm saying there was a transitional period. It was first said of
people and later said of either people or things. How can you contend
they are unrelated? Clearly, if I say, "John sucks", I'm insulting him
just as when I say "Las Vegas sucks". The parallel is obvious.
>If people in 1959 were already saying "[any object] sucks", and it did not
>mean "[any object] is of inferior quality", then what exactly did "it
>sucks" mean in 1959?
I don't believe the expression is that old -- not, at least, in
general use.
> Because the meaning of "disco sucks" (1977) is quite
>clear, and there seems to me to have been *no change* in meaning from 1977
>to 2001 in the meaning of "[thing] sucks".
Okay. And?
>> >suck, v c. to suck the hind tit or teat: to be inferior or have
>> > no priority. Also intr. with on. slang (orig. U.S.).
>> >
>> > 1940 W. V. T. Clark Ox-Bow Incident iv. 244 _Well,' he said, _if
>> > you like to suck the hind tit.'
>> >
>> > 1951 N. Monsarrat Cruel Sea iii. vi. 179 You have n't a hope._ As
>> > far as radar is concerned, corvettes are sucking on the hind tit.
>>
>> `Nother subject altogether and one having nothing to do with "That
>> sucks".
>
>Then what does "that sucks" mean to you if it doesn't mean "that is of bad
>quality"?
I'm not disputing that. When Bart Simpson uses the expression that is
what he means; he is not old enough to remember that it came from
"That sucks dick". You and I are. Donna is to but she, admittedly, led
a more sheltered life than you and I.
> I suspect that you remember a general insulting usage like
>"John sucks dick" from the 1950s (strange, given that you say there was a
>revolution in attitudes towards fellatio after 1949) that is unrelated to
>the later expression "that sucks" which obviously means the same thing as
>"that sucks hind tit".
It doesn't mean the same thing at all plus "it sucks hind tit" is not
an expression any of my contemporaries would use or did use.
>You've provided no evidence, based on memory or historical documents, that
>modern "that sucks" is connected with "to suck dick". If anything, your
>failure to see the obvious similarity in meaning between "suck hind
>tit" and "that sucks" strengthens the thesis that "that sucks" comes from
>"that sucks hind tit".
It doesn't. Some hoity-toity person, the same type who'd write d...k
for dick, made it up to suit his/her sensibilities.
It just occurred to me: are you, perhaps, putting on blinders because
your first name is Richard? From now on, I'll say it means "That sucks
cock".
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>Charles Riggs <chr...@gofree.indigo.ie> wrote:
>
>> Are these Americans over 45? "It sucks", before about 1960, never had
>> the meaning of inferior quality. It gradually started making the
>> transition, during that era, from "John sucks dick" to "John sucks"
>> and, later, to "[any object or person] sucks" but it was just a
>> convenient and, slightly more polite, way of saying, "[any object or
>> person] sucks dick", or "cock", if you prefer.
>
>Hello, Charles.
Hi, Donna.
>I think I have to make clearer that I see "He sucks" and
>"She sucks" as being completely separate, historically, from
>"That/It/This-inanimate-object sucks". I'm saying they have separate
>historical origins, although once they came into general use, they were
>confused and tainted by one another.
Well, I just can't see that. To me it is a simple and natural
progression to go from "Bill Gates sucks" to "Microsoft sucks".
Carefully note here that no-one would say "Microsoft sucks hind tit"
for that has a totally different meaning.
>I'm trying not to get you riled up here, Charles.
You, I believe, never try to rile me up; you're not Padraig or Brian.
You often bring up subjects of interest to me; we can't always agree.
>Your posts I've seen
>from my absence have been so courteous and thoughtful, I'm afraid it
>must be me who gets on your wrong side.
If you were on my wrong side, which you're not and never have been, I
wouldn't be talking with you. Contrary to the believe of some, I don't
look for trouble.
> I can well accept that "He sucks dick" or "He sucks
>cock" are insults with their own histories. I imagine that the history
>for the female form is slightly different but still an insult.
Could be a compliment or a recommendation, in my neck of the woods.
<g>
>As for
>other sayings, such as the belligerent "suck mah dick" and to "suck up"
>to someone and on and on, well, there are many uses of the verb.
>
>> >suck, v c. to suck the hind tit or teat: to be inferior or have
>> > no priority. Also intr. with on. slang (orig. U.S.).
>> >
>> > 1940 W. V. T. Clark Ox-Bow Incident iv. 244 _Well,' he said, _if
>> > you like to suck the hind tit.'
>> >
>> > 1951 N. Monsarrat Cruel Sea iii. vi. 179 You have n't a hope._ As
>> > far as radar is concerned, corvettes are sucking on the hind tit.
>>
>> `Nother subject altogether and one having nothing to do with "That
>> sucks".
>
>"That sucks" *is* my subject, *yours* was another subject altogether.
>And my central claim, which you cannot disprove,
I can't disprove it and you can't prove it. I have a pretty good
memory for language however.
>is that the US phrase
>"That sucks" meaning "that is of bad quality" did historically come from
>this phrase -- whether people have forgotten it or not (and they have).
Maybe for some people it actually did come from that, now, obscure
phrase. Far too many other people never heard of the phrase but are
well-acquainted with fellatio, so I don't think you can say that's
where it came from, historically.
>I will try to rewrite that proposed "sucks" entry so that it makes
>clearer that it is more about "That sucks" and less about the "He
>sucks/she sucks" uses.
Can't do. Not unless you want to put a slant on it. They are
intertwined.
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>I don't understand why you think that "sucks hind teat" doesn't mean,
>essentially, the same thing as modern "sucks".
If I say, "Disco sucks hind tit", I'm saying that disco music is a
poor second to, say, opera. If I say, "Disco sucks", I'm making an
absolute statement rather than a comparative one: I'm saying disco is
no damn good, in my opinion.
>There seems to me to be a
>huger gap between "you suck [dick, etc.]" and "disco sucks", and I was
>growing up at a time when both of those expressions were in wide use -- by
>distinct groups of people. Actually, I don't remember use of "that sucks
>dick" or "you suck dick" at all, when I was a kid; I do remember an
>imperative expression "suck my dick" which had essentially no meaning
>other than something like "you are worthy of insult or damnation".
My point was that I recall all of these expressions In varying degrees
of frequency whereas "sucks hind tit" went out with my grandfather and
I'm sure he and his contemporaries never said "The Midwest sucks", or
some such.
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>I'm not disputing that such graffiti existed, and that they are clearly
>implying fellatio rather than runticity -- but I would have thought the
>*origin* is still the runt. After all, we have evidence of persons
>described as sucking hind tit, and I can't believe these postdate the
>fellatio references, _pace_ Charles.
If a person sucks hind tit, he is out of luck. He is second-best. This
is not the same, or even similar, to saying, in the modern vernacular,
"He sucks". This means he is no good -- you're not saying the same
thing about the poor runt who can only reach the hind tit if he can
reach one at all. If anything, you might feel sorry for the little
fellow. Different story, different book.
Charles Riggs
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> Reinhold (Rey) Aman wrote:
> >This graffito was recorded by Prof. Allen Walker Read in a toilet
> >in Snoqualmie Falls, Washington, on July 28, 1928.
> >
> >His above-mentioned book was published for the first time in the USA
> >in 1977 by Maledicta Press with the new title _Classic American
> >Graffiti_. See:
> >
> > http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/graffiti.html
> Dr W. V. Davies of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth, has been
> awarded UKP105,234 to study 'The history and current status of "bad
> language" as a concept in German folk linguistics'.
Great. Another prof profiting nicely from what I popularized and made
*almost* acceptable in Cacademia during the past 28 years....
> http://www.ahrb.ac.uk/newsevents/research.html?awardid=59
>
> Another fat cheque gone to another clueless minnow?
Mr. Read recorded his classic graffiti as a young man (age 19) while
traveling with his parents throughout the western USA and western
Canada. No university or other funds supported his private research.
Today's profs, however, need lots of $$$ or ŁŁŁ (see above) to achieve
even a small fraction of the research carried out by independent
scholars and researchers, who have no financial teat to suck on.
> (What is/are 'folk linguistics'? A technical term? Or does Dr D
> just mean 'everyday speech'?)
"Folk linguistics" is a high-faluting bullshit term; it does not exist
but looks impressive on grant applications, résumés, and the annual
"brag sheet" required of profs by university administrators (officially,
a listing of "academic achievements" during the past year used for next
year's salary and teaching load considerations). The standard terms
"folk speech" and "everyday language/speech" are too ignoble for the
pretentious cacademicians and funds-controlling administrative
sub-cacademoids.
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Matti Lamprhey
But by this argument the fellatio thing is even more unlikely as an origin.
Since when does a man think of a woman who is prepared to engage in
fellatio with him as "no good"?
Matti
David McMurray
[...]
> This may have been posted already, but here are the relevant citations
> from OED2, all post-1970:
[...]
> ------------
> suck, n.1
> 12. Canad. slang. A worthless or contemptible person. Cf. SUCK v. 15f;
> suck-hole s.v. SUCK-.
>
> 1974 Globe & Mail (Toronto) 8 Mar. 1/6 The teachers are copping out.
> They're now saying, if we can't have our way, then we're going to be
> sucks and refuse to work. 1975 Citizen (Ottawa) 28 Oct. 1/1 A neighbor
> described Rob as ‘a quiet guy who was always getting put down a lot.
> Lots of people used to call him a suck... He didn't do much socially or
> in the way of sports.'
> ------------
I commented on this particular OED2 entry last year:
BEGIN QUOTED POST
From: David McMurray <ik0...@kingston.net>
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Didn't 'Sucks' start as 'Sucks Eggs'?
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:21:34 -0400
[...]
Of course, we have only the OED's word for it that 'suck' in those
examples is intended to mean "a worthless, contemptible person" rather
than some more specific type of undesirable. Perhaps context proves
their point, but the bare sentences don't.
When I was a Canadian kid in the late 40s and early 50s, a 'suck' was
essentially a sissy -- not a Real Boy, in other words. Sucks sucked up
to authority, were polite to girls, and were inordinately proud of the
fact that they always did their homework. One seldom saw them on the
sportsfield, although that was not a fatal flaw in itself.
A suck was certainly a contemptible thing to be, but 'suck' was not a
general term of abuse used to describe any worthless person. The second
example cited by [Ben] illustrates the usage -- Rob was a considered a
suck because he was something of a loner and didn't play sports.
It's interesting to me that the Canadian Oxford doesn't seem to share
its parent's view of the word:
[...] 4 _Cdn_ a crybaby or sore loser; a person who refuses to
participate or go along [...]
5 _Cdn_ a person who behaves obsequiously ..., esp. a child.
I don't think either of those can be fairly described as referring, in
general, to "a worthless or contemptible person".
END QUOTED POST
--
David
Donna Richoux
I read a bit more into than that. The animal (I still bristle at using
it for a person) may be the weakest out of a much larger number than
two. And from the point of view of the farmer, the runt of litter fails
to thrive, fails to grow, fails to perform up to desired expectations.
"This machine is a loser." It's not pity but disappointment and
frustration.
It's a little joke, you know. I imagine farm boys working on WWII
airplanes and saying that this here motor was failing to work because it
was the runt of the litter, and there's nothing you can do about it.
Given what you say elsewhere, I think you and I may be identifying the
same point of confusion. Assuming the hind tit theory is true, the
minute people stopped saying "sucks hind tit" and said only "sucks" (out
of deference to city folks' genteel ears, I imagine), but kept using the
shorter phrase, and *other people copied the shorter phrase without
being totally sure what it literally meant* -- then, you have the
situation where it is confounded with other meanings of "suck."
Especially sexual, because that would *also* have been shortened for the
sake of euphemism.
And as we've seen, "suck" is just mysterious enough of a word, plus
everyday enough, for people to drag in all sorts of connections -- eggs
and grandmothers and all that.
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> But by this argument the fellatio thing is even more unlikely as an origin.
> Since when does a man think of a woman who is prepared to engage in
> fellatio with him as "no good"?
Old joke:
Couple has been married for fifty years. During that whole time,
they've barely ventured beyond the missionary position. After the
celebration of their golden anniversary, they climb into bed and
Martha says: "John, I know you've always wanted me to give you a
blow job, but I'm just not the type, and anyway I was afraid that if
I did so you'd lose your respect for me." "Nonsense," says John.
"I didn't want to impose on you, but it has nothing to do with
respect." "Well," she says, "It's been fifty years. I guess better
late than never. But you will still respect me, right?" "Of
course," he says. "You can count on that." So Martha gives him the
fellatio he's wanted all those years.
A while later, as John is lying back sated, the phone rings. John
picks it up, chats briefly, passes it to Martha, and says "It's for
you, cocksucker."
Next question.
Donna Richoux
Yes, I remember that now. Besides your post, we also heard from Chris
Malcolm in Scotland, some Australians and some soc.culture.British
participants to the effect that:
>> From Scots "sook" = "suck", i.e., someone still sucking the tit,
i.e.,
>> a baby.
-
>
> A suck was certainly a contemptible thing to be, but 'suck' was not a
> general term of abuse used to describe any worthless person. The second
> example cited by [Ben] illustrates the usage -- Rob was a considered a
> suck because he was something of a loner and didn't play sports.
>
> It's interesting to me that the Canadian Oxford doesn't seem to share
> its parent's view of the word:
>
> [...] 4 _Cdn_ a crybaby or sore loser; a person who refuses to
> participate or go along [...]
>
> 5 _Cdn_ a person who behaves obsequiously ..., esp. a child.
>
> I don't think either of those can be fairly described as referring, in
> general, to "a worthless or contemptible person".
It could just be an error on the part of the definition maker, an
accidental overstatement. Or perhaps they had reason to believe the word
had increased its scope in the last decades, perhaps outside of Canada.
Insults do inflate.
But in any case, it's a separate usage from "That sucks" and I'll give
it its own line in my list of various uses.
I wonder now if it's related historically to the "sucks" that shows up
in British children's taunts. A childish word for a baby or sissy...
Aaron J Dinkin
> On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Pal wrote:
>
>> - He sucks at math. He got a D+ last semester.
>
> Here "suck at" is slightly different, meaning "perform badly at/in".
Although it's interesting that "sucks" can still be replaced with "is
bad", as it can in other contexts:
"Disco sucks." = "Disco is bad."
"He sucks at math." = "He is bad at math."
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Rowan Dingle wrote:
>
> > (What is/are 'folk linguistics'? A technical term? Or does Dr D
> > just mean 'everyday speech'?)
>
> "Folk linguistics" is a high-faluting bullshit term; it does not
> exist but looks impressive on grant applications, résumés, and the
> annual "brag sheet" required of profs by university administrators
> (officially, a listing of "academic achievements" during the past
> year used for next year's salary and teaching load considerations).
> The standard terms "folk speech" and "everyday language/speech" are
> too ignoble for the pretentious cacademicians and funds-controlling
> administrative sub-cacademoids.
While you're probably right, I would have read the term as parallel to
"folk etymology", "folk physics", "folk psychology", or "folk
taxonomy", i.e., "the way that ordinary people think language works".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |A burro is an ass. A burrow is a
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |hole in the ground. As a
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |journalist, you are expected to
|know the difference.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | UPI Stylebook
(650)857-7572
Jerry Friedman
I'm going to break a rule and comment before redaing this entire
thread. I hope I don't say too much that's already been said.
Donna, I had trouble figuring out what your theory was of the
evolution from "this sucks hind tit" to "this sucks" could be. I'm
thinking it's this:
"X sucks hind tit" means "X can't compete, X is a loser"
Hence "Mayfield High sucks [hind tit--possibly omitted] at basketball"
means "Mayfield High isn't good at basketball."
Hence "Mayfield High sucks" means "Mayfield High is no good"
Hence "This/he/she sucks" means "This/he/she is no good", "I hate
this/him/her", etc.
The fellatio origin would go as follows:
"You are a cocksucker" (c. 1891) means "You perform fellatio". "Often
used as a generalized term of abuse", according to MWCD10 on line.
(They don't give a year for the generalized sense, but I'll bet it's
just about as old as the literal sense.) That is, "You are a
cocksucker" means "You're worthless, no good, I hate you."
Hence "You suck [cock, possibly omitted]" means "You're worthless,"
etc.
Hence "This sucks" means "This is worthless," etc.
Hence "Mayfield High sucks at basketball" means "Mayfield High is no
good at basketball."
How do you tell which is right? (They could be both right.) Prima
facie evidence for the fellatio theory is that it's generally accepted
in "folk linguistics"; I and everyone I knew interpreted the phrase
that way when I learned it, same as Charles but later in history
(early '70s).
Another point is that all the early citations given in this thread are
in the sense of "This is worthless." This is an immediate development
from the use as a personal insult. If the original sense were "sucks
hind tit", the earliest citations would be more likely to have some
sense of losing a competition and more likely to be of the form "I
suck at algebra" instead of just plain "I suck". In other words, "The
world sucks" is more like "The world is a cocksucker" than like "The
world sucks hind tit," which makes no sense.
Yet another is that I don't agree with your understanding of "sucks
hind tit". Unlike Charles, I think the expression is current, though
rare and somewhat affected, and to me it connotes "unfairly treated"
more than "is a loser". The reason may be prejudice on the part of
authority more than inability to compete. However, this may not be
the original sense--puppies do compete.
<deep voice> In conclusion, <regular voice>, far from agreeing with
you that the connection with fellatio is mere folk etymology, I think
the evidence suggests that it's the more likely origin.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
> Pal <pa...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> > - That's a bummer. And it sucks large.
>
> I don't think I've *ever* heard anyone use "large" as an adverb with
> "suck". IME, the version below is much more common.
>
> > - It's a pity to hear that. It sucks big time.
I think I've heard "sucks large", and I've frequently heard "sucks massive".
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
> daniel gerard mcgrath <dmcg...@yahoo.com> wrote in article
> <3b885ea8...@news.ggn.net>...
> > On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 21:39:31 -0400, "Tony Cooper"
> > <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Pal wrote:
> > >
> > >> I'm German and I still haven't found a proper translation
> > >> for "suck". There's a colloquial meaning of "suck": to be
> > >> bad and unacceptable. For example: "His new song sucks".
> > >
> > >Personally, I don't see how you can translate a colloquialism into
> > >another language and keep the meaning. A translation would be a
> > >literal substitute that would hardly have the same meaning.
> > >
> > Not at all. Do you really think the only possible way to "translate"
> > <I am 19 years old> into Spanish would be <Soy 19 ańos viejo> -- or
> > something similar -- even though <Tengo 19 ańos> means the same thing?
I think you and Tony are agreeing, Daniel, except in your use of the
word "translate".
> Besides, even if you despised tener, you wouldn't want to use ser anyway;
> you would use estar. One of my college Spanish instructors pointed out
> that ser has to do with essence;. He didn't say it, but I assume estar has
> the same root as state. 19 years old is only your state. You are not
> essentially 19 years old. Although you could say «Soy Daniel» instead of
> «Me llamo Daniel» since you are essentially Daniel. This is not just a
> state.
I believe you're right about the etymology, but unfortunately my
favorite on-line Spanish dictionaries are down. "Estar" is from Latin
"stare", to stand, if I remember correctly. "State" is from "status",
the past participle of "stare", according to MWCD10.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
...
> Well, as to the "he" and "she" being distinct. I think there *was* a
> descriptive phrase, graffiti such as "Sue sucks," either meaning "For a
> good time, consider Sue" or "Sue is a slut", that was directly related
> to sexual use. I hate to parade my primness but the truth is I really
> have very little first-hand experience with such language. Other people,
> like John Davies, have testified to the masculine side, where I suppose
> "Joe sucks" is an insult because it means Joe is a homosexual, or in a
> homosexual relationship takes the submissive role, or whatever.
>
> In neither case was the phrase ever a roundabout way of saying that Joe
> or Sue are the runt of the litter.
Right (except for "is", not "are"). "Joe sucks" has the same sense as
"Life sucks", no littering.
> (Sorry to our resident Joe -- I'm having trouble thinking of a common,
> neutral man's name that is not represented here.)
I recommend "Joe Blow".
...
--
Jerry Friedman