diagonal { dexter, sinister } ?
Leland Woodbury
Donna Tartt's "A Secret History") a sentence that referred to something
being a "diagonal dexter" vs a "diagonal sinister". I immediately
loved these, since they condense an otherwise rather cumbersome
description of the orientation of a diagonal line. However, the
context did not make clear which was which, i.e., is it
diagonal dexter = \ and sinister = /
or
diagonal dexter = / and sinister = \
?
The standard dictionaries I have at my disposal indicate that
the word dexter means "related to or situated on the right,"
that the word sinister is the same thing on the left, and that both
words are used commonly in heraldry, but they do not say anything
about diagonals.
I would like to know if anyone reading this message can (a) settle
the question for me, and/or (b) tell me whether they've seen this
usage before.
Leland Woodbury
lel...@cs.columbia.edu
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Joshua_Putnam
>I recently ran across (I'm no longer sure where, but I think it was in
>Donna Tartt's "A Secret History") a sentence that referred to something
>being a "diagonal dexter" vs a "diagonal sinister".
> diagonal dexter = \ and sinister = /
>or
> diagonal dexter = / and sinister = \
>?
>The standard dictionaries I have at my disposal indicate that
>the word dexter means "related to or situated on the right,"
>that the word sinister is the same thing on the left, and that both
>words are used commonly in heraldry, but they do not say anything
>about diagonals.
I've usually seeen "bend" rather than "diagonal" in heraldic
contexts, e.g.
bend sinister n
(1612)
:a diagonal bend that runs from the sinister chief to the dexter
base on a heraldic shield
(from Webster's).
I suppose someone may have decided that "bend" isn't politically
correct any more, being too close to the judgemental "bent" for
some people's sensitivities. Or maybe it's just too archaic.
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T. Viljanen
> diagonal dexter = \ and sinister = /
>or
> diagonal dexter = / and sinister = \
>?
>The standard dictionaries I have at my disposal indicate that
>the word dexter means "related to or situated on the right,"
>that the word sinister is the same thing on the left, and that both
>words are used commonly in heraldry, but they do not say anything
>about diagonals.
In heraldry the shield is wieved as if the shieldholder was looking
at it himself. Thus it would be like
dexter sinister
(right hand side) (left hand side)
*******************************
* *
* *
* *
* *
* *
* *
* *
* *
* *
* *
* *
* *
* *
* *
* *
* *
"Diagonal dexter" is a backslash and a "diagonal sinister" is a slash :)
Of course, heraldry does _not_ use word "diagonal", but the term is
BEND. "Bend sinister Gules" is a traditional sign of illegitimacy.
Robin Parkinson
:
: diagonal dexter = \ and sinister = /
: or
: diagonal dexter = / and sinister = \
: ?
Heraldry? Haven't come across diagonal sinister/dexter, but
bend sinister = \ bend dexter = /
(I seem to recall bend sinister was usually a mark of illegitimacy)
- Robin P.
---
Robin Parkinson r...@jasper.rb.icl.co.uk
ICL Retail Systems, Bracknell, England R.Parkinson@BRA0801
"I am playing the right notes - but not necessarily in the right order."
- Eric Morecambe
PHILIP C BELL
> Heraldry? Haven't come across diagonal sinister/dexter, but
>
> bend sinister = \ bend dexter = /
>
> (I seem to recall bend sinister was usually a mark of illegitimacy)
>
> - Robin P.
(As I write that, it strikes me as somehow anti-Semitic; that's not my
intention, and I hope it wasn't the intention of the writers of Underdog.)
I remember, when I studied heraldry in school, being surprised by what
a bar sinister meant. Pretty naughty for Saturday morning TV.
Philip Craig Chapman-Bell
pcb...@english.umass.edu
Marcel Bigger
I might add that the "backslash" ordinary is bazoned by the word "bend"
instead of "bend dexter" and the "slash" ordinary by "bend sinister".
Marcel Bigger
Suzii Abe
> bend sinister n
> (1612)
> :a diagonal bend that runs from the sinister chief to the dexter
> base on a heraldic shield
>
> (from Webster's).
Doesn't it indicate bastardy, or am I extrapolating from
too few data?
--Suzii.
pale...@lily.arts.com
Raphael Mankin
>
>Heraldry? Haven't come across diagonal sinister/dexter, but
>
>bend sinister = \ bend dexter = /
>
>(I seem to recall bend sinister was usually a mark of illegitimacy)
>
> - Robin P.
>---
>Robin Parkinson r...@jasper.rb.icl.co.uk
No, they're the other way round. A Bend dexter runs from the *wearer's* right
shoulder to his (I do mean 'his' and not 'her') left hip.
There is no mark of illegitimacy in heraldry. Partly because of the difficulty
of knowing which of the various women in a medieval lord's court was his legal
wife.
--
Raphael Mankin Nil taurus excretum
xjum...@gmail.com
martin.ambuhl
> Bar is a Hebrew/aAramaic word meaning "son" much like "Mc" or "Mac" in Celtic cultures. As an adult I was struck by the idea that Simon (an originally Hebrew name) Bar Sinister was clearly an allusion to "evil Jews" and was therefore a veiled cruel and anti-Semitic.
>
charles
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Peter Duncanson [BrE]
>Bar is a Hebrew/aAramaic word meaning "son" much like "Mc" or "Mac" in Celtic cultures. As an adult I was struck by the idea that Simon (an originally Hebrew name) Bar Sinister was clearly an allusion to "evil Jews" and was therefore a veiled cruel and anti-Semitic.
"Sinister" means "left", the opposite of "right"
"Bar" is a word for the heraldic technical term "Baton".
A "Bar Sinister" is used in heraldry on a coat of arms. It sometimes
ibdicates bastardy, that is the person whose coat of arms it is, was
illegitimate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baton_sinister
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bar%20sinister
bar sinister
noun
1: a heraldic charge held to be a mark of bastardy
2: the fact or condition of being of illegitimate birth
Examples of bar sinister in a sentence
<back in the days when the bar sinister was a real obstacle to
social acceptance>
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>A "Bar Sinister" is used in heraldry on a coat of arms. It sometimes
>ibdicates bastardy, that is the person whose coat of arms it is, was
Peter T. Daniels
> Bar is a Hebrew/aAramaic word meaning "son" much
>like "Mc" or "Mac" in Celtic cultures. As an adult I was struck by the idea that Simon (an originally Hebrew name) Bar Sinister was clearly an allusion to "evil Jews" and was therefore a veiled cruel and anti-Semitic.
did not notice that this was an 8-message thread from 1993.
This may be the record for lazarization.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:59:43 -0700 (PDT), xjum...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Bar is a Hebrew/aAramaic word meaning "son" much like "Mc" or "Mac" in
>> Celtic cultures. As an adult I was struck by the idea that Simon (an
>> originally Hebrew name) Bar Sinister was clearly an allusion to "evil
>> Jews" and was therefore a veiled cruel and anti-Semitic.
>
> It was absolutely nothing of the sort.
>
> "Sinister" means "left", the opposite of "right"
>
> "Bar" is a word for the heraldic technical term "Baton".
>
> A "Bar Sinister" is used in heraldry on a coat of arms.
horizontal band, and is the mirror image of itself, so it has has no
left or right. The proper term is "bend sinister", but the misnomer is
very common.
Another complication is that nowadays we don't often carry shields into
battle, and we tend to interpret "left" and "right" from the point of
view of the person viewing the shield, so "sinister" actually
corresponds to what we would perceive as "right", because it refers to
"left" from the point of view of the person carrying the shield.
Similarly with "dexter".
> It sometimes
> ibdicates bastardy, that is the person whose coat of arms it is, was
> illegitimate.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baton_sinister
>
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bar%20sinister
>
>
> bar sinister
> noun
>
> 1: a heraldic charge held to be a mark of bastardy
>
> 2: the fact or condition of being of illegitimate birth
>
>
> Examples of bar sinister in a sentence
>
> <back in the days when the bar sinister was a real obstacle to
> social acceptance>
--
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
derived from heraldry even if it involves a misunderstanding of heraldic
terminology.
That was a response to the OP's:
>>> As an adult I was struck by the idea that Simon (an
>>> originally Hebrew name) Bar Sinister was clearly an allusion to "evil
>>> Jews" and was therefore a veiled cruel and anti-Semitic.
thinks that Bar Sinister is an allusion to "evil Jews".
Tony Cooper
>battle,
major cities all over the US and Europe are going into battle carrying
those clear plastic shields.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
who post here. If there are any police officers here I haven't detected
them.
--
athel
Whiskers
shields, but not from the other side. That's ambisinisterousity.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Robin Bignall
>On 2016-04-10 15:15:21 +0000, Tony Cooper said:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Apr 2016 15:30:00 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>
>>> Another complication is that nowadays we don't often carry shields into
>>> battle,
>>
>> I'm seeing more and more shields carried into battle. The police is
>> major cities all over the US and Europe are going into battle carrying
>> those clear plastic shields.
>
>Yes, you're right, but "we" was supposed to refer to the sort of people
>who post here. If there are any police officers here I haven't detected
>them.
Pal).
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England (BrE)
GordonD
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Jerry Friedman
> On 2016-04-10 11:02:26 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
>
> > On Sat, 9 Apr 2016 20:59:43 -0700 (PDT), xjum...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> Bar is a Hebrew/aAramaic word meaning "son" much like "Mc" or "Mac" in
> >> Celtic cultures. As an adult I was struck by the idea that Simon (an
> >> originally Hebrew name) Bar Sinister was clearly an allusion to "evil
> >> Jews" and was therefore a veiled cruel and anti-Semitic.
> >
> > It was absolutely nothing of the sort.
> >
> > "Sinister" means "left", the opposite of "right"
> >
> > "Bar" is a word for the heraldic technical term "Baton".
> >
> > A "Bar Sinister" is used in heraldry on a coat of arms.
>
> A misnomer, however, that is not used in serious heraldry. A "bar" is a
> horizontal band, and is the mirror image of itself, so it has has no
> left or right. The proper term is "bend sinister", but the misnomer is
> very common.
There are other marks used as "differences" for illegitimate children,
notably the baton sinister. This article looks reliable on heraldry.
http://www.oocities.org/skuinsbalk/bastardy.html
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
patronymics. Whoever came up with that name may have been thinking of
Simon (Shim`on) Bar Koseva, known as Bar Kokhba, the leader of a
temporarily successful Jewish revolt against Rome.
> That was a response to the OP's:
>
> >>> As an adult I was struck by the idea that Simon (an
> >>> originally Hebrew name) Bar Sinister was clearly an allusion to "evil
> >>> Jews" and was therefore a veiled cruel and anti-Semitic.
--
Jerry Friedman
RH Draney
"Underdog" cartoon series (played by Peter Dinklage in the live-action
movie version)...if the name appears in any other context I'm unaware of
it....r