I see Paris, I see France...
Joseph C Fineman
"Gwendolen" <Gw...@Scooziepie.com> writes:
>I've been interested in the origin and history of playground rhymes, and
>I've been amazed at how widespread and well known this little rhyme is:
>I see Paris. I see France;
>I see someone's underpants.
>Some questions come to mind. How old and how widespread is this rhyme?
>What is its origin? Who in God's name wrote it and why?
When _I_ was in the first grade (1943?) it was
Teacher, teacher, I declare:
I see someone's underwear.
There was also
It's two o'clock
In the barbershop.
which meant "Your fly is open".
My guess is: these petty violations of modesty were thought to require
some mention, but a ritual was required in order to protect the
mentioner from involvement in the immodesty.
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: The starting point of conversation is contradiction. :||
Gary Williams, Business Services Accounting
In article <33a85277...@news.monmouth.com>,
t...@monmouth.com.NO.JUNK.EMAIL (T. Shannon Gilvary) writes:
> On 18 Jun 1997 13:44:17 GMT, "Gwendolen" <Gw...@Scooziepie.com> wrote:
>>I see Paris. I see France;
>>I see someone's underpants.
>>
>>Some questions come to mind. How old and how widespread is this rhyme?
>>What is its origin? Who in God's name wrote it and why?
I knew a close variant (we would name the someone) about forty years ago in
Missouri, USA. For my money, it has the marks of having been composed by about
a fourth-grade male for the amusement of his friends.
Gary Williams
WILL...@AHECAS.AHEC.EDU
Larry Krakauer
T. Shannon Gilvary wrote:
> On 18 Jun 1997 13:44:17 GMT, "Gwendolen" <Gw...@Scooziepie.com> wrote:
> >I've been amazed at how widespread and well known this little rhyme is:
> >I see Paris. I see France;
> >I see someone's underpants.
> >Some questions come to mind. How old and how widespread is this rhyme?
> >What is its origin? Who in God's name wrote it and why?
> I knew it 24 years ago, I'm from New Jersey, USA.
I knew it over 45 years ago, in New York, New York (USA).
Anyone in the UK ever heard it as a child?
--
Larry Krakauer (lar...@kronos.com)
Maureen Goldman
>
> >>I see Paris. I see France;
> >>I see someone's underpants.
> >>
> >>Some questions come to mind. How old and how widespread is this rhyme?
> >>What is its origin? Who in God's name wrote it and why?
>
Accounting) wrote:
> I knew a close variant (we would name the someone) about forty years ago in
> Missouri, USA. For my money, it has the marks of having been composed by about
> a fourth-grade male for the amusement of his friends.
I'm 53, and I'm sure that I heard it when I was in kindergarten in
southern California. And, yes, a name was often filled in.
---
Maureen Goldman
To reply, please remove {nospam] from address
Gwendolen
Perhaps the barber pole is pointing at 2 o'clock?
Anton Sherwood <das...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<dasherEC...@netcom.com>...
> : "Gwendolen" <Gw...@Scooziepie.com> writes:
> : >I see Paris. I see France;
> : >I see someone's underpants.
>
> For me (Pasadena 1967?) it was
> I see London, I see France,
> I see (Gwendolen)'s underpants.
>
> Once I said to my wife "I see London, I see France,"
> and she replied "But I'm not wearing any underpants."
> Ahem.
>
> Joseph C Fineman <j...@world.std.com> writes
> : There was also
> : It's two o'clock
> : In the barbershop.
> : which meant "Your fly is open".
>
> I'll betray my ignorance of barbershops
> by confessing that the metaphor is opaque to me.
> --
> Anton Sherwood ** +1 415 267 0685 ** DASher at netcom point com
> "How'd ya like to climb this high WITHOUT no mountain?" --Porky Pine
70.6.19
>
Joseph C Fineman
das...@netcom.com (Anton Sherwood) writes:
>Joseph C Fineman <j...@world.std.com> writes
>: There was also
>: It's two o'clock
>: In the barbershop.
>: which meant "Your fly is open".
>I'll betray my ignorance of barbershops by confessing that the
>metaphor is opaque to me.
Despite some experience of barbershops, it is opaque to me as well. I
think it's just code.
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: If there were enough doctors, we'd all be sick. :||
LLThrasher
Larry Krakauer wrote:
>
> T. Shannon Gilvary wrote:
> > On 18 Jun 1997 13:44:17 GMT, "Gwendolen" <Gw...@Scooziepie.com> wrote:
> > >I've been interested in the origin and history of playground rhymes, and
> > >I've been amazed at how widespread and well known this little rhyme is:
>
> > >I see someone's underpants.
>
> > >What is its origin? Who in God's name wrote it and why?
>
>
> I knew it over 45 years ago, in New York, New York (USA).
>
> Anyone in the UK ever heard it as a child?
>
I was born in the US in 1946, lived in the south, midwest, and
southwest, and heard it throughout my childhood, every place we lived.
I don't recall my parents acting as if it was news to them and they were
both born in 1919. I'd say it's a real oldie.
L.
Jonathan Mason
ha...@cadvision.com (John W Hall) wrote:
>>In article <33A856...@kronos.com>,
>> Larry Krakauer <lar...@kronos.com> writes:
>
>>>> >I see Paris. I see France;
>>>> >I see someone's underpants.
>
>
Is something missing here? This is supposed to have been said by Napoleon
with whose career there is a connection with Elba that I forget (was he
exiled there prior to St. Helena?).
This is unlikely to be true, for would a French speaking Corsican really
be able to cook up a whole sentence that is a palindrome?
Jonathan Mason
LLThrasher <ba...@teleport.com> wrote:
>Larry Krakauer wrote:
>>
>> T. Shannon Gilvary wrote:
>> > On 18 Jun 1997 13:44:17 GMT, "Gwendolen" <Gw...@Scooziepie.com> wrote:
>> > >I've been interested in the origin and history of playground rhymes, and
>> > >I've been amazed at how widespread and well known this little rhyme is:
>>
>> > >I see someone's underpants.
>>
>> > >What is its origin? Who in God's name wrote it and why?
>>
>> > I knew it 24 years ago, I'm from New Jersey, USA.
>>
>> I knew it over 45 years ago, in New York, New York (USA).
>>
>> Anyone in the UK ever heard it as a child?
>>
>
>I was born in the US in 1946, lived in the south, midwest, and
>southwest, and heard it throughout my childhood, every place we lived.
>I don't recall my parents acting as if it was news to them and they were
>both born in 1919. I'd say it's a real oldie.
>
British English. Even in Northern England where "France" is pronounced
with a short 'a', the 't' in "underpants" is still sounded.
WTC48
<Gw...@Scooziepie.com> wrote:
>> > >I've been interested in the origin and history of playground rhymes,
and
>> > >I've been amazed at how widespread and well known this little rhyme
is:
>>
>> > >I see Paris. I see France;
>> > >I see someone's underpants.
>>
>> > >Some questions come to mind. How old and how widespread is this
rhyme?
>> > >What is its origin? Who in God's name wrote it and why?
>>
>> > I knew it 24 years ago, I'm from New Jersey, USA.
>>
>> I knew it over 45 years ago, in New York, New York (USA).
It was hear under jungle jims in Santa Barbara, California at least 54
years ago in the version:
I see England, I see France . . . (etc)
Peter Fish (wt...@aol.com)
Maureen Goldman
> > T. Shannon Gilvary wrote:
> > > On 18 Jun 1997 13:44:17 GMT, "Gwendolen" <Gw...@Scooziepie.com> wrote:
> > > >I've been interested in the origin and history of playground rhymes, and
> > > >I've been amazed at how widespread and well known this little rhyme is:
> >
> > > >I see Paris. I see France;
> > > >I see someone's underpants.
> >
> > > >Some questions come to mind. How old and how widespread is this rhyme?
> > > >What is its origin? Who in God's name wrote it and why?
> >
> > > I knew it 24 years ago, I'm from New Jersey, USA.
> >
> > I knew it over 45 years ago, in New York, New York (USA).
> >
>
> I was born in the US in 1946, lived in the south, midwest, and
> southwest, and heard it throughout my childhood, every place we lived.
> I don't recall my parents acting as if it was news to them and they were
> both born in 1919. I'd say it's a real oldie.
Webster's Collegiate has "underpants" confirmed for 1925.
colf...@minn.net
On 20 Jun 1997 17:11:00 GMT, wt...@aol.com (WTC48) wrote:
><Gw...@Scooziepie.com> wrote:
>>> > >I've been interested in the origin and history of playground rhymes,
>and
>>> > >I've been amazed at how widespread and well known this little rhyme
>is:
>>>
>>> > >I see Paris. I see France;
>>> > >I see someone's underpants.
>>>
>>> > >Some questions come to mind. How old and how widespread is this
>rhyme?
>>> > >What is its origin? Who in God's name wrote it and why?
>>>
>>> > I knew it 24 years ago, I'm from New Jersey, USA.
>>>
>>> I knew it over 45 years ago, in New York, New York (USA).
>
>It was hear under jungle jims in Santa Barbara, California at least 54
>years ago in the version:
>
> I see England, I see France . . . (etc)
Yes! When this thread appeared, I thought the version from my
childhood in Orange Country, California, some 40+ years ago was a bit
different. Was this a California variant, I wonder?
Carol from Mpls.
Joseph C Fineman
SPAM-BE-G...@psu.edu (Martin A. Mazur) writes:
>They don't wear no pants
>On the other side of France
>They just wear some grass
>To cover up their ass.
The rhyme seems to have been irresistable to the juvenile mind. In my
generation (b. 1937), the first dirty song every American boy learned
was
There's a place in France
Where the women wear no pants
And the men go round
With their wienies hanging down.
Perhaps there is a folklore newsgroup, somewhere, to which this thread
would be more appropriate?
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: Feeling better? Watch out! :||
John W Hall
Jonathan Mason <j...@sunline.net.spamchopper> wrote:
>>Able was I ere I saw Elba
>>
>Is something missing here? This is supposed to have been said by Napoleon
>with whose career there is a connection with Elba that I forget (was he
>exiled there prior to St. Helena?).
>This is unlikely to be true, for would a French speaking Corsican really
>be able to cook up a whole sentence that is a palindrome?
I'm sure Napoleon didn't say it. I suppose it was created by someone
else and attributed to him, since it would not make sense for any
other well-known person to say.
John Hall / Digital Magic <Digita...@cadvision.com>
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" (Arthur C. Clarke)
Joseph C Fineman
Jonathan Mason <j...@sunline.net.spamchopper> writes:
>I never heard it in England. "France" and "underpants" don't rhyme
>in British English. Even in Northern England where "France" is
>pronounced with a short 'a', the 't' in "underpants" is still
>sounded.
I dare say, but (for an American, at any rate) it takes conscious
elocution _not_ to sound an intrusive t in "France". Do the northern
English really manage that routinely?
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: Anger is ice for the toothache of shame. :||
John W Hall
>>> >I see Paris. I see France;
>>> >I see someone's underpants.
Able was I ere I saw Elba
John Hall / Digital Magic <Digita...@cadvision.com>
Elaine Parrish
On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Martin A. Mazur wrote:
> In article <01bc7bed$bf3ad220$434060ce@ramaro>,
> "Gwendolen" <Gw...@Scooziepie.com> wrote:
> >I've been interested in the origin and history of playground rhymes, and
> >I've been amazed at how widespread and well known this little rhyme is:
> >
> >I see Paris. I see France;
> >I see someone's underpants.
> >
> >Some questions come to mind. How old and how widespread is this rhyme?
> >What is its origin? Who in God's name wrote it and why?
> >
>
> A related rhyme, told to me by someone of a previous generation, so it must be
> old...
>
> (to a "jungle beat"):
>
> They don't wear no pants
> On the other side of France
> They just wear some grass
> To cover up their ass.
>
> If a child sang this in one of today's multicultural schools, I'm sure it
> would land up on his "permanent record".
....and shame on you for bringing it up!!! :)
The one we had - almost 40 years ago - went:
There's a place in France
where the women wear no pants;
and the men go around with
their ding-dongs hanging down.
I guess "France" got all the attention because it would rhymn.
My reserved, church-going mother taught me the following. It's for 2
speakers.
#1: Listen, listen...
#2: Cat's a' pissin'.
#1: Where, where?
#2: Under the chair!
My mother!!!...go figure. We still so this little ditty - it's like some
secret club. Then, we have the nerve to laugh.
Daniel P. B. Smith
>> In article <01bc7bed$bf3ad220$434060ce@ramaro>,
>> "Gwendolen" <Gw...@Scooziepie.com> wrote:
>> >I've been interested in the origin and history of playground rhymes, and
>> >I've been amazed at how widespread and well known this little rhyme is:
>> >
>> >I see Paris. I see France;
>> >I see someone's underpants.
>> >
>> >Some questions come to mind. How old and how widespread is this rhyme?
>> >What is its origin? Who in God's name wrote it and why?
>
We always said "I see London, I see France..." The "someone" was as
far as I can remember always a girl (girls usually wore skirts then)
although the jingle was chanted by both boys and girls.
"France..." Circa World War I, sexual mores were freer in France than
in England or the United States and experiences of American soldiers
in France had a social impact. The association of "France" with
sexuality still survives in many expressions (French kiss, French letter,
etc.--even "pardon my French"). So I'm sure the rhyme is important, but
I expect the "French connection" is, too. Oooh, la la! Gay paree!
Mademoiselle from Armentiere, parlay-voo!
"Who wrote it?" Silly to ask... this sort of thing is part of the folk
process. "Why?" Indoctrination in societal norms. Girls were made to
wear clothing in which it was difficult to perform normal physical
activity without sometimes revealing underpants, and we all made sure that
whenever it happened they knew about it. Guaranteeing the teaching of a
whole bunch of lessons about sexuality, humiliation, gender roles, etc.
"You will constantly experience very mild symbolic sexual assaults. They
are _your_ fault for not behaving properly. You will maintain constant
awareness of your body and its appearance to others, particularly boys.
You will never forget that underpants are an area of special interest. You
shall circumscribe your activities somewhat, lest too many see your
underpants too often. But you will never be able to stop it altogether.
And you will observe that if there are any adult authority figures around
when someone sings out 'I see London, I see France, I see Linda's
underpants' they will all smile indulgently as they listen to the happy
sounds of children at play."
--
Daniel P. B. Smith
dpbs...@world.std.com
will...@netcom.com
How did this thread get to be 23 posts long without mention of "x-y-z"?
--
William E. Homer
will...@netcom.com
ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/wi/william1/weh.html
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1928
Donna Richoux
<will...@netcom.com> wrote:
> How did this thread get to be 23 posts long without mention of "x-y-z"?
Pray enlighten us. What in the world are you talking about?
Best wishes --- Donna Richoux
Max Buten
On Sat, 21 Jun 1997 21:52:14 +0100, Peter Hesketh
<p...@phesk.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.97062...@Ra.MsState.Edu>,
>Elaine Parrish <es...@Ra.MsState.Edu> writes
>>#1: Listen, listen...
>>
>>#2: Cat's a' pissin'.
>>
>>#1: Where, where?
>>
>>#2: Under the chair!
>
>We said:
>
>Quick, quick! The cat's been sick!
>Where, where?
>Under the chair!
>Hasten, hasten, fetch a basin!
>Grandpa's slippers are afloat! Grandpa's in a rowing boat!
>--
>Peter Hesketh, Mynyddbach, Monmouthshire, England
The fragment I remember, from a different culture:
Hasten, Jason, bring the basin
Oops, plop. Bring the mop.
Max
My address is not disguised
Jill Lundquist
In article <EC3GB...@world.std.com>,
Joseph C Fineman <j...@world.std.com> wrote:
>The rhyme seems to have been irresistable to the juvenile mind. In my
>generation (b. 1937), the first dirty song every American boy learned
>was
>
> And the men go round
> With their wienies hanging down.
I knew:
There's a place in France,
Where the naked ladies dance.
There's a hole in the wall,
Where the men watch it all.
We sang this, of course, with a great sense of wickedness.
--
Jill Lundquist ji...@qualcomm.com DoD #882
"They say travel broadens the mind,
so I went over the falls in a barrel." (Thomas Dolby)
The Chocolate Lady (Davida Chazan)
On Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:45:51 GMT during the alt.usage.english
Community News Flash, will...@netcom.com will...@netcom8.netcom.com
reported:
>How did this thread get to be 23 posts long without mention of "x-y-z"?
>--
And just as I hit the 'send now' button on my last post, I remembered:
"It's snowing down south."
Anyone else remember that one?
Davida Chazan - The Chocolate Lady
<dav...@jdc.org.il>
~*~*~*~*~*~
De chocolato non est disputandum! Ergo, carpe chocolatum!
~*~*~*~*~*~
Support the Jayne Hitchcock HELP Fund:
http://www.geocities.com/~hitchcockc/story.html#fund
WARNING: Email address corrupted to prevent spam (unTilde
someone comes up with a better idea).
The Chocolate Lady (Davida Chazan)
On Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:45:51 GMT during the alt.usage.english
Community News Flash, will...@netcom.com will...@netcom8.netcom.com
reported:
>How did this thread get to be 23 posts long without mention of "x-y-z"?
>--
You beat me to the punch, Billy!
Such a nice way to inform someone that their fly is open, isn't it?
(And I always seem to hear that expression just as one is walking out
the door.)
Jerry Bauer
In article <1997062201...@p013.hlm.euronet.nl>,
Donna Richoux <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote:
><will...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> How did this thread get to be 23 posts long without mention of "x-y-z"?
>
>
>Best wishes --- Donna Richoux
I do not recall having heard this expression before last month. I am
a 45yo American male, and have had exposure to a variety of regional
dialects.
The context was a Boy Scout campout, Big Basin State Park (in
mountains north of Santa Cruz, California). The speaker was an adult
leader, speaking to a boy. Upon hearing the phrase "x-y-z", the boy
checked, then zipped his fly. Clearly, communication had taken place.
I asked the adult leader about "x-y-z". He told me that it stands for
"eXamine Your Zipper".
Jerry Randal Bauer
Jerry Bauer
In article <33acf950...@news.netvision.net.il>,
The Chocolate Lady (Davida Chazan) <da~*~vi...@jdc.org.il> wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:44:19 -0400 during the alt.usage.english
>Community News Flash, Larry Krakauer <lar...@kronos.com> reported:
>
>>T. Shannon Gilvary wrote:
>>
>>> >I see Paris. I see France;
>>> >I see someone's underpants.
>
>>Anyone in the UK ever heard it as a child?
>>
>and not underpants.
>
>(Correct me if I'm wrong.)
>
>Davida Chazan - The Chocolate Lady
I see Paris, I see France;
I see someone's (k)nickers.
Those silly UKers! It doesn't even scan, unless (k)nickers is
pronounced "throatwarbler-mangrove" or "luxury-yacht" or like
"equator" but with an 'l'.
Jerry "is this the argument clinic?" Randal Bauer
browse
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.97062...@Ra.MsState.Edu>,
Elaine Parrish <es...@Ra.MsState.Edu> wrote:
>The one we had - almost 40 years ago - went:
>
>
>There's a place in France
>where the women wear no pants;
>and the men go around with
>their ding-dongs hanging down.
>
>
>I guess "France" got all the attention because it would rhymn.
>
For me (Memphis, TN 1972?) it was
There's a place in France,
Where the ladies were no pants.
There's a hole in the wall where
<someone> can see it all.
browse
http://www.deviant.com/
"They order," said I, "this matter better in France."
Laurence Sterne, Sentimental Journey
Mike Ford
>On Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:44:19 -0400 during the alt.usage.english
>Community News Flash, Larry Krakauer <lar...@kronos.com> reported:
>
>>T. Shannon Gilvary wrote:
>>
>>> >I see Paris. I see France;
>>> >I see someone's underpants.
>
>>I knew it over 45 years ago, in New York, New York (USA).
>I knew it about 35 years ago in Chicago, Il (USA).
>
>>Anyone in the UK ever heard it as a child?
>>
>Seems unlikely, Larry, since in the UK they would be called nickers
>and not underpants.
Well, that would be "knickers", but only if the "someone" is female.
If you're talking about a young lad's, they'd be "pants" (with no
"under"). However, "underpants" might be used in a generic or
humorous context -- or to match the rhythm of a ditty like this.
Having said that, like other Brit correspondents I don't recall
hearing this anytime, anywhere.
Come to that, I can't remember the existence of *any* chanted ditty to
point out open flies. The usual euphemisms were "You're flying
without a licence" or "You're [flying] at half-mast".
----
Mike Ford m...@mcgoff.karoo.co.uk
Leeds, UK
Joseph C Fineman
dpbs...@world.std.com (Daniel P. B. Smith) writes:
>"France..." Circa World War I, sexual mores were freer in France than
>in England or the United States and experiences of American soldiers
>in France had a social impact. The association of "France" with
>sexuality still survives in many expressions (French kiss, French
>letter, etc.--even "pardon my French"). So I'm sure the rhyme is
>important, but I expect the "French connection" is, too. Oooh, la
>la! Gay paree! Mademoiselle from Armentiere, parlay-voo!
I suspect that the association is a good deal older even than our
participation in W.W. I. George Orwell (I can't locate the passage at
the moment) remarks somewhere that Americans seem to think of the
French as perpetually engaged in amorous intrigue, and quotes Walt
Whitman in support of the assertion.
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do. :||
John Davies
>On Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:44:19 -0400 during the alt.usage.english
>Community News Flash, Larry Krakauer <lar...@kronos.com> reported:
>
>>T. Shannon Gilvary wrote:
>>
>>> >I see Paris. I see France;
>>> >I see someone's underpants.
>
>>I knew it over 45 years ago, in New York, New York (USA).
>I knew it about 35 years ago in Chicago, Il (USA).
>
>>Anyone in the UK ever heard it as a child?
>>
>Seems unlikely, Larry, since in the UK they would be called nickers
>and not underpants.
>
ago, which proved nearly as popular as the one about tomato products.
Briefly (ho ho):
Pants can be male or female, but female ones are usually panties. Pants
are rarely outer garments, except for Hot pants, and short pants worn by
small boys. (And also what one's breath comes in when... oh, never
mind.) Underpants are exclusively male.
Knickers are female. This word used to be regarded as comically old-
fashioned, but has long since replaced "panties" as the most common UK
usage.
Then there are briefs, boxer shorts, Y-fronts, coms, passion killers,
directoire knickers... sorry, I'm going to have to take a cold shower.
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
On that of which one cannot speak, one must remain silent. (Wittgenstein)
Albert Marshall
Mike Barnes <mi...@exodus.co.uk> wrote
>In alt.usage.english, Joseph C Fineman <j...@world.std.com> spake
>thuswise:
>>Jonathan Mason <j...@sunline.net.spamchopper> writes:
>>
>>>I never heard it in England. "France" and "underpants" don't rhyme
>>>in British English. Even in Northern England where "France" is
>>>pronounced with a short 'a', the 't' in "underpants" is still
>>>sounded.
>>
>>I dare say, but (for an American, at any rate) it takes conscious
>>elocution _not_ to sound an intrusive t in "France". Do the northern
>>English really manage that routinely?
>
>
Same goes for the Home Counties - no "t" (except at 4 o'clock).
--
Albert Marshall
S.E. England
Donna Richoux
Mike Barnes <mi...@exodus.co.uk> wrote:
> In alt.usage.english, Joseph C Fineman <j...@world.std.com> spake
> thuswise:
> >Jonathan Mason <j...@sunline.net.spamchopper> writes:
> >
> >>I never heard it in England. "France" and "underpants" don't rhyme
> >>in British English. Even in Northern England where "France" is
> >>pronounced with a short 'a', the 't' in "underpants" is still
> >>sounded.
> >
> >I dare say, but (for an American, at any rate) it takes conscious
> >elocution _not_ to sound an intrusive t in "France". Do the northern
> >English really manage that routinely?
>
> I'm no expert, but I would say "yes".
As an American, I found it difficult to say "France" without a "t"
sound. At first I could only get "Franz," which I didn't think was what
you meant. But now I think I've got it -- say "Francisco" and drop the
"isco." Right?
It only works if I say "Francisco" slowly, not like the Bay Area
pronunciation of the city name, which I am incapable of conveying here..
Best -- Donna
Albert Marshall
Mike Barnes <mi...@exodus.co.uk> wrote
>In alt.usage.english, Joseph C Fineman <j...@world.std.com> spake
>thuswise:
>>Jonathan Mason <j...@sunline.net.spamchopper> writes:
>>
>>>I never heard it in England. "France" and "underpants" don't rhyme
>>>in British English. Even in Northern England where "France" is
>>>pronounced with a short 'a', the 't' in "underpants" is still
>>>sounded.
>>
>>I dare say, but (for an American, at any rate) it takes conscious
>>elocution _not_ to sound an intrusive t in "France". Do the northern
>>English really manage that routinely?
>
>I'm no expert, but I would say "yes".
>
Mike Barnes
In alt.usage.english, Donna Richoux <tr...@euronet.nl> spake thuswise:
>Mike Barnes <mi...@exodus.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In alt.usage.english, Joseph C Fineman <j...@world.std.com> spake
>> thuswise:
>> >Jonathan Mason <j...@sunline.net.spamchopper> writes:
>> >
>> >>I never heard it in England. "France" and "underpants" don't rhyme
>> >>in British English. Even in Northern England where "France" is
>> >>pronounced with a short 'a', the 't' in "underpants" is still
>> >>sounded.
>> >
>> >I dare say, but (for an American, at any rate) it takes conscious
>> >elocution _not_ to sound an intrusive t in "France". Do the northern
>> >English really manage that routinely?
>>
>> I'm no expert, but I would say "yes".
>
>sound. At first I could only get "Franz," which I didn't think was what
>you meant. But now I think I've got it -- say "Francisco" and drop the
>"isco." Right?
Right.
My guess is that if you have to work at pronouncing "France" without a
"t", you pronounce "chance" and "chants" identically. Is this right? I
find that I pronounce them differently. At least, I *usually* do - if
I'm intoxicated, or speaking quickly, etc, they might come out the same.
But that would be because I dropped the "t" from "chants", not because I
added one to "chance".
--
-- Mike Barnes, Stockport, England.
-- If you post a response to Usenet, please *don't* send me a copy by e-mail.
The Chocolate Lady (Davida Chazan)
On 21 Jun 1997 17:11:15 GMT during the alt.usage.english Community
News Flash, "Gwendolen" <Gw...@Scooziepie.com> reported:
>Well, isn't this just fascinating. Thanks to all of you for your responses
>on this query. We still don't know whether the author was a child or not. I
>suspect that no single child on any given playground could have created
>such a phenomenon, though, clearly, the rhyme is simple and childlike.
>The Paris/London connection almost suggests a wartime origin.
We may not have found the origin of this little rhyme, but I'm sure
that everyone remembers the origin of:
"Ring around the rosy.
Pocket full of posies.
Ashes, ashes well all fall down."
How on earth did such a morbid subject end up as a nursery rhyme?
Worse, children to this day still *dance* in a circle to this! I have
a Childcraft published in 1950 which includes this exact rhyme.
However, I do know that some people probably learned it slightly
differently.
Are there any other examples of such juxtaposition that we can think
of?
Davida Chazan - The Chocolate Lady
SLHinton17
Mike Ford says:
<I can't remember the existence of *any* chanted ditty to
<point out open flies. The usual euphemisms were "You're flying
<without a licence" or "You're [flying] at half-mast".
In my pre-Zipper youth, flies were fastened with buttons, and if a button
was showing someone would say "Hey! It's one o'clock at the water
station!" This was often shortened to "It's one o'clock." I tghink
people arfe more forthright these days, and the admonition would be a s
imple "Your fly's open."
Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA
Mike Ford
>"Ring around the rosy.
>Pocket full of posies.
>Ashes, ashes well all fall down."
What interesting words! Reading them, I'm not sure that you
necessarily have the same origin in mind as I do for the version
widely known in the UK. (Just out of interest, what *do* you believe
it refers to?)
The version I learnt was:
Ring-a-ring o' roses
A pocket full of posies
A-tishoo, a-tishoo,
All fall down
which is clearly a reference to the millions of deaths caused by the
Great Plague.
>How on earth did such a morbid subject end up as a nursery rhyme?
Well, the story as I recall it being told to me was that it was
deliberately devised to warn of the danger of unprotected sneezes. As
is the way of things, it faded from adult usage once the danger it
warned of was past, but by then was being chanted by children as just
a useful playtime ditty with no real comprehension of its true
meaning. I'm sure lots of nursery rhymes and playground chants have
followed similar patterns.
>Are there any other examples of such juxtaposition that we can think
>of?
Well, how about "Oranges and Lemons"?
Oranges and Lemons, say the bells of St Clement's,
You owe me five farthings, say the bells of St Martin's,
When will you pay me? says the bell of Old Bailey,
When I grow rich, say the Bells of Shoreditch,
When will that be? say the bells of Stepney,
I do not know, says the great bell of Bow
(chanted menacingly)
Here comes the chopper to chop off your head,
Here comes the axeman to see you to bed.
(followed by one unlucky child being ceremonially trapped around the
neck and declared out of the game)
I believe there may, again, be variations on the exact wording, but
the general pattern is much the same.
T. Shannon Gilvary
On 21 Jun 1997 04:04:38 GMT, heel...@aol.com (HeelsFans) wrote:
>If you are interested in tracing these lines, I suggest finding a good
>book on jump-roping, as this is a old jump rope ditty.
There was always this one (if I can remember it all)
Miss Lucy had a steamboat
the steamboat had a bell.
Miss lucy went to heaven
the steamboat went to
Hello operator,
give me number nine,
and if you disconnect me
I'll beat your big
behind the refrigerator
there was a piece of glass
Miss Lucy sat upon it
and cut her little
ask me no more questions
I'll tell you no more lies
The boys are in the girls room
pulling down their
flies are in the playground,
bees are in the park.
The boys and girls are kissing in the
d-a-r-k, dark.
I guess I could remember it....
Donna Richoux
The Chocolate Lady (Davida Chazan) <dav~*~i...@jdc.org.il> wrote:
[snip]
> I'm sure that everyone remembers the origin of:
>
> Pocket full of posies.
> Ashes, ashes well all fall down."
>
Alas, that which "everybody remembers" is often not true. (Compare the
often-repeated observation that Eskimos have a very large number of
words for snow, which apparently is simply not so and never was.) Iona
and Peter Opie, the well-respected scholars and collectors of children's
folklore, devote seven pages of their book "The Singing Game" (1985) to
debunking the recent myth that Ring Around the Rosie is connected in any
way with the Great Plague. "The Singing Game" and their other books are
published by Oxford University Press, and in fairness to them I can only
quote a bit of it here, with some editorial summaries.
BEGIN QUOTE
[After discussing many games with circling and falling, and then
describing "Ring a Ring o'Roses" as a well-known children's game] The
game has been tainted by a legend that the song is a relic of the Great
Plague of 1665; that the ring of roses was the purpuric sore that
betokened the plague, that the posies were the herbs carried as
protection against infection, that sneezing ("a-tishoo, a-tishoo') was
the final fatal symptom of the disease, and that 'all fall down' was
precisely what happened. This story has obtained such circulation in
recent years it can itself be said to be epidemic. [Snip example of 1973
magazine headline]; lecturers at medical schools have repeated it as
fact both in Britain and America (men of science are notoriously
incautious when pronouncing on material in disciplines other than their
own); and we ourselves have had to listen so often to this
interpretation we are reluctant to go out of the house. Those infected
with the belief seem unperturbed that no reference to 'Ring a Ring
o'Roses' appears in Pepys's careful record of hearsay during the long
months of the Plague; [snip - nor does Defoe's account, or several named
studies of the Plague described as recent and careful.]
The legend linking the plague with the game-song seems in fact to be
comparatively new. It was not given by Alice Gomme in 1898, who would
certainly have mentioned it had she known it; and has not been found in
the work of any comentator before the Second World War [snip - even
those they describe as 'most fanciful.' They compare this to the also
erroneous belief that saying "God bless you" after a sneeze is connected
to the Great Plague.]
The association of the plague with 'Ring a Ring o'Roses' looks even more
improbable when the history of the game itself is examined. [Snip 7
recorded versions, the earliest known in Britain, which go only as far
back as 1880!] In only four of these recordings is sneezing a feature;
and in only two (the Yorkshire versions) is sneezing, or supposed
sneezing, coupled with falling or kneeling down. [Goes on to say that
two conscientious collectors of the mid-1800s, one English, one
Scottish, fail to mention the rhyme at all. Most importantly, the Opies
go on to give versions found in America, Germany, Holland, Switzerland,
and Italy, that were printed far earlier and were widely known in those
countries. The first lines are similar, such as "Ringe, ringe, reihe"
and they have the common elements of flowers, circling, saying hush (as
in quiet, not achoo) and sitting. The Opies conclude:]
Thus in 'Ring a Ring o'Roses' we have, or so it seems, a spray from the
great Continental tradition of May games, that preserved the memory,
however faintly, of the rose as the flower of Cupid, the wreath of roses
with which Aphrodite crowned her hair, [etc - lovers presenting flowers
to their loved ones.]... A race of rose-growers (the English) might
surely have been expected to have taken more kindly to the idea that a
ring o'roses was a rose wreath rather than a death-portending rash.
END QUOTE
So. Like my dad still says, do you believe everything you hear?
By the way, it just occured to me to look in the other Opie book I have,
"The Lore and Language of School Children" (1959) for "I see London, I
see France." It's there, but only in a brief footnote:
"In the United States children commonly chant:
I see London, I see France,
I see someone's underpants."
The passage as a whole reports rhymes that comment on appearance --
shirt tails hanging out, open flys (I wonder if that's the plural),
dirty noses, etc.
I cannot fathom why there is not more of this kind of children's lore
published on the Internet. I would think everybody and his brother would
like to report on the rhymes they remember from childhood, if there were
some suitable place to do so.
Robert R. Koblish
T. Shannon Gilvary wrote:
[...]
>
> XYZ means "eXamine Your Zipper" usually followed with "PDQ" (pretty
> damn quick". It's a polite way to tell someone their barn door is
> open.
Not to mention "You're losing altitude" = "your fly is open".
--
regards
-rrk
To reply, remove the leading X in my return address.
Albert Marshall
"The Chocolate Lady (Davida Chazan)" <dav~*~i...@jdc.org.il> wrote
<Snip>
>
>"Ring around the rosy.
>Pocket full of posies.
>Ashes, ashes well all fall down."
>
>How on earth did such a morbid subject end up as a nursery rhyme?
>Worse, children to this day still *dance* in a circle to this! I have
>a Childcraft published in 1950 which includes this exact rhyme.
>However, I do know that some people probably learned it slightly
>differently.
IIRC it dates back to the Great Plague of 1665. I believe it should be
"Atishoo! Atishoo! We all fall down" relating to a syptom of the
disease, but others may have better info on this one.
--
Albert Marshall
Executive French
Language Training for Businesses in Kent
01634 400902
Brian J Goggin
>"The Chocolate Lady (Davida Chazan)" <dav~*~i...@jdc.org.il> wrote
>
><Snip>
>>
>>"Ring around the rosy.
>>Pocket full of posies.
>>Ashes, ashes well all fall down."
>>
>>How on earth did such a morbid subject end up as a nursery rhyme?
>>Worse, children to this day still *dance* in a circle to this! I have
>>a Childcraft published in 1950 which includes this exact rhyme.
>>However, I do know that some people probably learned it slightly
>>differently.
>
>IIRC it dates back to the Great Plague of 1665. I believe it should be
>"Atishoo! Atishoo! We all fall down" relating to a syptom of the
>disease, but others may have better info on this one.
See http://www.urbanlegends.com/misc/ring_around_the_rosie.html
bjg
Anno Siegel
(since Davida's posting hasn't shown up yet I use this posting by bjg
as a relay)
When this came around last time I queried sci.med about sneezing and
the plague. The consensus was that sneezing isn't a prominent symptom
of any form or stage of the plague. Unsurprisingly, coughing is
a symptom with the pulmonary form.
Anno
Anno Siegel
Mike Ford <m...@mcgoff.karoo.co.uk> wrote in alt.usage.english:
>On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 05:57:17 GMT, dav~*~i...@jdc.org.il (The Chocolate
>Lady (Davida Chazan)) wrote:
>
>>Pocket full of posies.
>>Ashes, ashes well all fall down."
>
>necessarily have the same origin in mind as I do for the version
>widely known in the UK. (Just out of interest, what *do* you believe
>it refers to?)
>
>The version I learnt was:
>
>Ring-a-ring o' roses
>A pocket full of posies
>A-tishoo, a-tishoo,
>All fall down
>
>which is clearly a reference to the millions of deaths caused by the
>Great Plague.
>
It may not be as morbid as the Great-Plague origin makes it seem to be.
Folklorist Philip Hiscock wrote a column about the subject in 1991,
casting serious doubts on the theory. His reasoning in short: The
earliest printed version of "Ring around the rosy" seems to be in
Kate Greenway's _Mother Goose or the Old Nursery Rhymes_, published
in London in 1881. He goes on to say he finds it implausible for the
rhyme to circulate for five hundred years before anyone wrote it down.
Instead he offers the rhyme may go back to "play-parties" American
adolescents held to get around the religious ban on dancing. Ring
games were played there that amounted to dancing, only the participants
had to provide their own music, singing little ditties.
If someone is interested, I can provide the full text of Hiskock's
column.
Anno
Joseph C Fineman
Robert Lieblich <lieb...@erols.com> writes:
>Then there's the verse to "Sweet Violets":
>There once was a farmer who took a young miss
This girl had a sister, I blush to confess --
She once met a man and began to un-
Nerve him by zipping her dress down the front,
But only to give him a look at her
Cunning gold necklace that she always wore,
But he grew afraid that she might be a
Horrible schemer and up to some trick,
So she said, "I see that you have a hard
Problem you might take in hand if you tried",
So he stepped up to her and put it in
These words: he said that when he lived in France [N.B.],
The ladies he liked let him into their
Plans, and would tell him what they'd like to do,
So she said, "Stop talking, 'cause I want to
Scratch my mosquito bites right where they itch",
And he said, "Well, I am a son of a
Bishop, but I'll be a layman instead",
So he picked her up gently and laid her in
Sweet violets, etc.
Those are called _tease songs_, and there are a great many, but I like
that one best.
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: Better to shut your mouth and be thought a fool than open it :||
||: and remove all doubt. :||
Peter Hesketh
In article <33b73690...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Bob Cunningham
<ad...@lafn.org> writes
>To me, "angel" and "angle"
>differ only in the sound of the "g".
I've never heard the a in angle spoken as in pane. Where did you
acquire your accent?
Bob Cunningham
>T. Shannon Gilvary wrote:
>>
>> On 21 Jun 1997 04:04:38 GMT, heel...@aol.com (HeelsFans) wrote:
>>
>> >If you are interested in tracing these lines, I suggest finding a good
>> >book on jump-roping, as this is a old jump rope ditty.
>>
>> There was always this one (if I can remember it all)
>>
>> Miss Lucy had a steamboat
>> the steamboat had a bell.
>> Miss lucy went to heaven
>> the steamboat went to
>> Hello operator,
>> give me number nine,
>> and if you disconnect me
>> I'll beat your big
>> behind the refrigerator
From about three score and ten years ago, I remember:
A little miss
Went out to pick
Some flowers.
She stepped in the grass
Clear up to her ankles fair.
(Sung with dragging out of "pi" in "pick" and "a" in "ankles".)
This used to seem flawed to me, because "ankles" in my idiolect doesn't
start with the same vowel as the word that is obviously alluded to. My
"ankle" has the same "a" as in "ate" or "atheist".
(It occurred to me that "ate" is not a good word to use for an example
of vowel pronunciations; that's why I added "atheist". In Britain,
according to NSOED/93, "ate" can be pronounced either /eIt/ or /Et/
(with the "a" of "rate" or "pet").)
After all these years I've finally looked it up and found to my great
surprise that in both the British NSOED/93^ and the American RHDEL2^^,
the only pronunciation given for "ankle" has the "a" of "cat".
Now, to my even greater surprise, I find that the two dictionaries show
the only pronunciation of "angle" having the "a" of "cat". I would
swear that I had never heard it pronounced that way, but I realize that
I may have heard what I expected to hear instead of what the person was
actually saying (a well-known phenomenon). My "angle" is /'eINgl-/.
As I look further I find many words with the "a" of "cat" where I have
the "a" of "Kate": "tangle", "rank", "dangle", "fang", "bank",
"anxious". But just when I begin to think all of my words with "an" are
going to be that way, I find that "range" is given as /reIndZ/ (with the
"a" of "rate"). Also, "angel" is /eIndZl-/. To me, "angel" and "angle"
differ only in the sound of the "g".
^ NSOED/93 = _The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_
(1993 edition)
^^ RHDEL2 = _The Random House Dictionary of the English
Language Second Edition Unabridged_
(1987 version)
Michael E McCullough
Do you remember this old ditty:
A baby fell out of the window
They thought that its head would be split
But good luck was with it that morning
It fell in a barrel of
Shaving Cream...
we used to sing that on the parochial school playground
Dale Williams
Max Buten wrote:
>
> On Sat, 21 Jun 1997 21:52:14 +0100, Peter Hesketh
> <p...@phesk.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> >We said:
> >
> >Quick, quick! The cat's been sick!
> >Where, where?
> >Under the chair!
> >Hasten, hasten, fetch a basin!
> >Grandpa's slippers are afloat! Grandpa's in a rowing boat!
> >--
> >Peter Hesketh, Mynyddbach, Monmouthshire, England
>
> Hasten, Jason, bring the basin
> Oops, plop. Bring the mop.
The version we had went:
Hasten, Mason, fetch the basin -
Too late! Stop!
Fetch the mop.
Said in a posh voice as though Mason was the butler.
DAW
Robert M. Wilson
In article <5otb0f$j98$1...@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>,
anno...@lublin.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (Anno Siegel) wrote:
>Bill Shatzer <bsha...@orednet.org> wrote in alt.usage.english:
>>
>>In a previous article, anno...@lublin.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (Anno Siegel) says:
>>
>>-Ring-around-the rosie variations snipped-
>>
>>>It may not be as morbid as the Great-Plague origin makes it seem to be.
>>>Folklorist Philip Hiscock wrote a column about the subject in 1991,
>>>casting serious doubts on the theory. His reasoning in short: The
>>>earliest printed version of "Ring around the rosy" seems to be in
>>>Kate Greenway's _Mother Goose or the Old Nursery Rhymes_, published
>>>in London in 1881. He goes on to say he finds it implausible for the
>>>rhyme to circulate for five hundred years before anyone wrote it down.
>>
>Let me quote Hiscock's reply to this objection:
>
> But, you might ask, why would anyone write it down anyway? The answer
> is that English antiquarians and folklorists have been bringing together,
> publishing and discussing traditional rhymes, songs, and stories for
> over three hundred years. It does seem odd that they might have missed
> this one.
>
(much removed)
"The Annotated Mother Goose" -- Baring-Gould, 1962 -- which has a lengthy
analysis of the rhyme also doubts the plague origin, a theory which was
popularised by James Leasor, "the Plague and the Fire", in 1961.
Its origin is probably best placed in the category of 'not known'.
KimFore
>"It's snowing down south."
>Anyone else remember that one?Yes, we used that expression when I was growing up (in the 60s) to tell a
girl that her slip was showing below the hem of her dress. I haven't
heard it for years.
Kim in California, whose boss thinks she's working...
Gwendolen
Bernard W. Joseph
Albert Marshall <alb...@execfrog.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>To get further back on topic, the equivalent rhyme I remember from
>childhood in 1950s London is
>"All the girls in France
>Take their knickers down to dance"
As I remember the American version (say panties for knickers), the
song continued with:
"And the dance they do
Is enough to kill a Jew.
They do you know what I meano,
With their wicked tamborino,
And a la di-di-ya di-di-ya-ya,
And an oompa-oompa-pa.
The following chorus is then chanted to the tune of the Bacchanal from
"Samson and Delilah."
Yie dee die dee die die,
Oie dee doie dee doie doie,
repeat with suitable gyrations throughout.
- - - - - - - - - - -
Bernard W. Joseph e-mail: bjo...@industrynet.net
Applied Grammar phone : +1 (810) 468-5869
No more "fresh-baked" apple pies.
Donna Richoux
Bill Shatzer <bsha...@orednet.org> wrote:
> anno...@lublin.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (Anno Siegel) says:
>
> -Ring-around-the rosie variations snipped-
>
> >It may not be as morbid as the Great-Plague origin makes it seem to be.
>>Folklorist Philip Hiscock wrote a column about the subject in 1991,
>>casting serious doubts on the theory.
{snip remainder of Anno Siegel's summary. Snip Bill Shatzer's rejection
thereof.]
> I think I'll stick with the plague theory.
Dear Bill,
(1) You do not appear to have read the full Hiscock exchange, which is
at the URL given by Brian J. Goggin, namely
http://www.urbanlegends.com/misc/ring_around_the_rosie.html
Anno's summary was quite short and therefore glossed over some of the
more convincing details.
(2) You apparently did not see my long post on the subject, quoting the
throrough analysis in the book "The Singing Game" by folklore scholars
Iona and Peter Opie If this post still has not reached your server, I
would be happy to post it again.
(3) I will not do a point by point discussion of your rejection, as I
think you will many of find them answered in the two documents above.
(4) History is a funny business. Almost nothing can be completely and
totally proven. Look at how much trouble the criminal justice system has
in proving what happened last month or last year, even when they are
paid well to do so.
I could probably make up a wild story that, say, the Declaration of
Independence was a fabrication by one man working in his back room,
forging signatures, instead of a document put together by leading
citizens of the day, signed in public, and published by the swiftest
means available at the time. If I came up with two or three plausible,
interesting bits of evidence to support my claim, it might well catch
the fancy of the American public (which is very conspiracy-minded these
days) and be bandied about for thirty or forty years, as has this Plague
theory. At the end of that time, how would you judge the truth of this
Declaration theory? Well, you could look in permanent archives for any
origin of the claim, and point out that no mention of this theory was
made before 1997, even though the Declaration had been written about in
considerable detail before then, making it likely that someone would
have written down such a theory had it existed; also that the person
originating the theory (assuming you could identify me) had no
overwhelming evidence on her side, no "smoking gun"; and also that quite
plausible evidence was available that the Declaration was established by
normal, honest, regular means. Even then, someone could still sniff at
these points. ("They don't PROVE anything!")
That is comparable to the state of the plague theory of 1961. (At least,
it has been narrowed down by those who have studied the matter
carefullly as originating between 1945 and 1961.) Except that Ring
Around the Rosy is merely a children's rhyme, not a major document, so
the weight of evidence is not nearly as heavy.
One last point about Ring/Rosie. Some of the versions of the rhyme show,
in more or less chronological (though sometimes divergent) order, such
words as:
musch, musch (German, 1796) -- hush, hush --- ashem, ashem -- ashes,
ashes -- atisha, atisha -- atishoo, atishoo -- (and recently) a tissue,
a tissue.
How long before someone claims that those supposed plague victims -- of
which disease, sneezing is NOT a symptom -- must have used an early
version of Kleenex?
Children repeat nonsense. They sometimes assign meaning to nonsense,
sometimes changing it slightly to be meaningful. Of such stuff is
language, and folklore, made. The difference between language and
folklore being, perhaps, that grown-ups direct children's babbling down
the channels of established language, having a vested interest in being
able to communicate with their offspring, while they have little reason
to bother to control and "correct" children's rhymes and other kinds of
free play.
Best wishes --- Donna Richoux
Posted and e-mailed
Donna Richoux
Gwendolen <Gw...@Scooziepie.com> wrote:
Thanks for saying so. You're welcome to take the ball and run with it.
(I'm juggling enough other balls right now as it is.) You could check my
assertion that there is not much children's lore on the Web or in
newsgroups; that was my impression last year when this group was arguing
about "One flew over the cuckoo's nest."
Markus Laker
ad...@lafn.org (Bob Cunningham):
> This used to seem flawed to me, because "ankles" in my idiolect doesn't
> start with the same vowel as the word that is obviously alluded to
> [which is "ass" -- MSL]. My "ankle" has the same "a" as in "ate" or "atheist".
I read this in mounting confusion. First, I thought, 'ass' /&s/ does
start with the same vowel as 'ankle' /&Nk(@)l/. Second, the arrangement
of the letters -- one initial vowel followed by three consonants --
makes /eInk(@)l/ unlikely. And, finally, it's hard to consistently
mishear /&/ as /eI/.
And then I said to myself: stop being so Anglocentric, Laker. Bob's not
stupid and he's not deaf. Suppose he and his colleagues pronounced /&/
rather like [E]. The word 'ankle' /&Nk(@)l/ would then come out as
[ENk(@)l], which is much closer to the [eINk(@)l] in his idiolect, and
possibly within mishearing distance.
Is that what's happened, Bob?
Bonus question: does anyone agree with COD9's rendition of 'atheism',
/'eITIIz(@)m/, or do you find it unpronounceable and prefer
/'eITiIz(@)m/?
Markus Laker.
Shine your buttons with Brasso . . . .
--
My newsfeed is dropping messages again.
*Please* send an emailed copy of any reply.
Anandashankar Mazumdar
On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Markus Laker wrote:
> ad...@lafn.org (Bob Cunningham):
>
> > This used to seem flawed to me, because "ankles" in my idiolect doesn't
> > start with the same vowel as the word that is obviously alluded to
> > [which is "ass" -- MSL]. My "ankle" has the same "a" as in "ate" or "atheist".
>
> I read this in mounting confusion. First, I thought, 'ass' /&s/ does
> start with the same vowel as 'ankle' /&Nk(@)l/. Second, the arrangement
> of the letters -- one initial vowel followed by three consonants --
> makes /eInk(@)l/ unlikely. And, finally, it's hard to consistently
> mishear /&/ as /eI/.
>
> And then I said to myself: stop being so Anglocentric, Laker. Bob's not
> stupid and he's not deaf. Suppose he and his colleagues pronounced /&/
> rather like [E]. The word 'ankle' /&Nk(@)l/ would then come out as
> [ENk(@)l], which is much closer to the [eINk(@)l] in his idiolect, and
> possibly within mishearing distance.
>
> Is that what's happened, Bob?
Actually, I don't have Bob's pronunciation myself, but I have
heard it in back in my home state of Ohio from a friend of mine (29 years
old) who was raised as a Mennonite on a farm in "red" Wayne County in the
northeast, close to Cleveland and Pittsburgh. She says /eIngk@l/ for
"ankle" (I say /&ngk@l/). She also says /mElk/ (with a very "dark" or
"liquid" "l." I'm not sure of the proper term) instead of /mIlk/ for
"milk."
She also uses the words "yet" and "any more" in ways that I'm
guessing are not new but they sound very odd to me:
-- He's 30 years old and his mother does his laundry yet. (I would
use "still" instead of "yet.")
-- I used to do my grocery shopping at Kroger but any more I go to
Meijer. (I would use "now" instead of "any more")
> Bonus question: does anyone agree with COD9's rendition of 'atheism',
> /'eITIIz(@)m/, or do you find it unpronounceable and prefer
> /'eITiIz(@)m/?
I agree with you, Markus. I can't easily pronounce the first. It seems to
me that pronunciation guides in general tend to prefer /I/ where I would
use /i/, e.g., /sloUlI/ when I would say /sloUli/ ("slowly"). Having
watched many old movies I am guessing that these /I/'s are from an accent
found in the first half of the 20th century R.P. and in a high-prestige
American accent that was used in movies and radio during the same time.
Ananda
Gwen Lenker
Markus Laker <la...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in article
<33b70255...@news.tcp.co.uk>...
>
> I read this in mounting confusion. First, I thought, 'ass' /&s/ does
> start with the same vowel as 'ankle' /&Nk(@)l/. Second, the arrangement
> of the letters -- one initial vowel followed by three consonants --
> makes /eInk(@)l/ unlikely. And, finally, it's hard to consistently
> mishear /&/ as /eI/.
>
> And then I said to myself: stop being so Anglocentric, Laker. Bob's not
> stupid and he's not deaf. Suppose he and his colleagues pronounced /&/
> rather like [E]. The word 'ankle' /&Nk(@)l/ would then come out as
> [ENk(@)l], which is much closer to the [eINk(@)l] in his idiolect, and
> possibly within mishearing distance.
I think my own pronunciation of the "a" in "ankle" is closer to /&/ than it
is to /eI/, but it's not exactly the same as either. The "a" in "angel" is
definitely /eI/ when I say it, so it's something about the following /N/
that modifies my pronunciation of the vowel.
> Bonus question: does anyone agree with COD9's rendition of 'atheism',
> /'eITIIz(@)m/, or do you find it unpronounceable and prefer
> /'eITiIz(@)m/?
I would have to insert a glottal stop to pronounce /'eITIIz(@)m/, which I
have never done until I attempted to read your message aloud. I call it
/'eITiIz(@)m/. Go rag on 'em, Markus!
Aaron J. Dinkin
In article <01bc83f6$54ec5860$LocalHost@default>, "Gwen Lenker"
<gale...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Markus Laker <la...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in article
><33b70255...@news.tcp.co.uk>...
>>
>> I read this in mounting confusion. First, I thought, 'ass' /&s/ does
>> start with the same vowel as 'ankle' /&Nk(@)l/. Second, the arrangement
>> of the letters -- one initial vowel followed by three consonants --
>> makes /eInk(@)l/ unlikely. And, finally, it's hard to consistently
>> mishear /&/ as /eI/.
>>
>> And then I said to myself: stop being so Anglocentric, Laker. Bob's not
>> stupid and he's not deaf. Suppose he and his colleagues pronounced /&/
>> rather like [E]. The word 'ankle' /&Nk(@)l/ would then come out as
>> [ENk(@)l], which is much closer to the [eINk(@)l] in his idiolect, and
>> possibly within mishearing distance.
>
>I think my own pronunciation of the "a" in "ankle" is closer to /&/ than it
>is to /eI/, but it's not exactly the same as either. The "a" in "angel" is
>definitely /eI/ when I say it, so it's something about the following /N/
>that modifies my pronunciation of the vowel.
In my own peculiar idiolect, a following nasal has a definite effect on
/&/. (This is so much the case, in fact, that when I was in kindergarten
learning about the "short a" and the "long a", I wondered when we'd get to
the "a before n".) I'd say that /&/ before /m/ and /n/ becomes something
like a sort of [e@] diphthong, so "ram" and "ran" become [re@m] and [re@n].
Before /N/, however, /&/ becomes [e], or perhaps even [eI]: "rang" is
[reN]. I'm sure I don't have a phonemic distinction between /&N/ and /eN/.
(Similarly, I've never really been sure that what I call /IN/ might not
actually be /iN/.) Curiously, I do distinguish /EN/ from those, so "eng"
doesn't rhyme with "bang".
(IMOPI, "ram" rhymes with "museum". Anyone else recognize this phenomenon?)
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Gwen Lenker
Aaron J. Dinkin <adi...@commschool.org> wrote in article
<adinkin-ya0231800...@news.usa1.com>...
[...]
> I'd say that /&/ before /m/ and /n/ becomes something
> like a sort of [e@] diphthong, so "ram" and "ran" become [re@m] and
[re@n].
> Before /N/, however, /&/ becomes [e], or perhaps even [eI]: "rang" is
> [reN]. I'm sure I don't have a phonemic distinction between /&N/ and
/eN/.
> (Similarly, I've never really been sure that what I call /IN/ might not
> actually be /iN/.) Curiously, I do distinguish /EN/ from those, so "eng"
> doesn't rhyme with "bang".
>
> (IMOPI, "ram" rhymes with "museum". Anyone else recognize this
phenomenon?)
You fum New Juwzzy? I've heard something like what you describe from
people who originally came from New Jersey, but their accents had already
become somewhat Californicated by the time I met them.
Colin Fine
In article <5p0rml$q...@neon.airtime.co.uk>, Ian James Abbott
<ja...@spuddy.mew.co.uk> writes
>In article <33b73690...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, ad...@lafn.org (Bob
>Cunningham) writes:
>
>>This used to seem flawed to me, because "ankles" in my idiolect doesn't
>>"ankle" has the same "a" as in "ate" or "atheist".
>
>>of vowel pronunciations; that's why I added "atheist". In Britain,
>>according to NSOED/93, "ate" can be pronounced either /eIt/ or /Et/
>>(with the "a" of "rate" or "pet").)
>
>>After all these years I've finally looked it up and found to my great
>>surprise that in both the British NSOED/93^ and the American RHDEL2^^,
>>the only pronunciation given for "ankle" has the "a" of "cat".
>
>>Now, to my even greater surprise, I find that the two dictionaries show
>>the only pronunciation of "angle" having the "a" of "cat". I would
>>swear that I had never heard it pronounced that way, but I realize that
>>I may have heard what I expected to hear instead of what the person was
>>actually saying (a well-known phenomenon). My "angle" is /'eINgl-/.
>
>>As I look further I find many words with the "a" of "cat" where I have
>>the "a" of "Kate": "tangle", "rank", "dangle", "fang", "bank",
>>"anxious". But just when I begin to think all of my words with "an" are
>>going to be that way, I find that "range" is given as /reIndZ/ (with the
>>"a" of "rate"). Also, "angel" is /eIndZl-/. To me, "angel" and "angle"
>>differ only in the sound of the "g".
You're not from Essex, are you?
[Seriously, though, when I try to imagine the sound of your speech from
what you've written, I hear something East London. ?]
--
Colin Fine
Ross Howard
Anandashankar Mazumdar <mazu...@shell.nicom.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Markus Laker wrote:
>> Bonus question: does anyone agree with COD9's rendition of 'atheism',
>> /'eITIIz(@)m/, or do you find it unpronounceable and prefer
>> /'eITiIz(@)m/?
> I agree with you, Markus. I can't easily pronounce the first. It seems to
>me that pronunciation guides in general tend to prefer /I/ where I would
>use /i/, e.g., /sloUlI/ when I would say /sloUli/ ("slowly"). Having
>watched many old movies I am guessing that these /I/'s are from an accent
>found in the first half of the 20th century R.P. and in a high-prestige
>American accent that was used in movies and radio during the same time.
I agree. I think this happens with most final "short *y*" sounds. For
example, the only person I can remember having pronounced "silly" as
/sIlI/ was Trevor Howard (no relation) in *Brief Encounter*; I say and
hear /sIli/.
As for "atheism", I also agree with Markus (whose post hasn't arrived
yet), although I also hear some people put a [j] between the two [I]s
-- /eITIjIz(@)m/. This "easy way out" seems to be commonly used when a
word begins with a [I] or [i:] immediately after a word ending in a
similar vowel:
"really interesting" /'rI@lI'jInt(@)r@stIN/
"happy Easter" /h&pI'ji:st@/
Ross Howard
Ross Howard
Anton Sherwood
: Aaron J. Dinkin <adi...@commschool.org> wrote
: [...]
: > (Similarly, I've never really been sure that what I call /IN/ might not
: > actually be /iN/.) [...]
Reminds me of the course I took about ten years ago from UC Berkeley
Extension, in accounting - er, accouneen. The teacher (a young woman)
pronounced -ing as /i:n/. Some kind of hypercorrection? I associate
the phenomenon with over-stylish receptionists.
--
Don't blame me; I voted for Rick Tompkins.
Anton Sherwood ** +1 415 267 0685 ** DASher at netcom point com
"How'd ya like to climb this high WITHOUT no mountain?" --Porky Pine 70.6.19
Anton Sherwood
Bob Cunningham <ad...@lafn.org> writes
: I asked my wife how she pronounces "ankle". I clearly hear her
: saying /'eInkl-/, but she says she's saying /'&nkl-/. She also
: says she uses the same vowel in "bank" and "back", but to me she
: sounds as if she's saying /beInk/ and /b&ck/.
My vowel in "bank" or "ankle" is higher and fronter than that
in "back", but it's still very different from that in "rain".
And there's no off-glide.
Keith C. Ivey
la...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker) wrote:
>ad...@lafn.org (Bob Cunningham):
>> This used to seem flawed to me, because "ankles" in my idiolect doesn't
>> start with the same vowel as the word that is obviously alluded to
>> [which is "ass" -- MSL]. My "ankle" has the same "a" as in "ate" or "atheist".
>
>I read this in mounting confusion. First, I thought, 'ass' /&s/ does
>start with the same vowel as 'ankle' /&Nk(@)l/. Second, the arrangement
>of the letters -- one initial vowel followed by three consonants --
>makes /eInk(@)l/ unlikely. And, finally, it's hard to consistently
>mishear /&/ as /eI/.
>
>And then I said to myself: stop being so Anglocentric, Laker.
It's not a matter of Anglocentrism. I was just as confused as
you, and I'm a native speaker of US English (though apparently
not the same variety Bob speaks). Maybe "dialectocentric" would
be a better word.
>Bonus question: does anyone agree with COD9's rendition of 'atheism',
>/'eITIIz(@)m/, or do you find it unpronounceable and prefer
>/'eITiIz(@)m/?
Of course, but then I have /i/ in a lot of places where COD9 has
/I/ (I think -- I don't have COD9) -- at the end of all those
"-y" words, for example.
[posted and mailed]
Keith C. Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org> Washington, DC
Contributing Editor/Webmaster
The Editorial Eye <http://www.eeicom.com/eye/>
Markus Laker
das...@netcom.com (Anton Sherwood):
[Of '-ly' words, such as 'slowly']
> I've only heard it (final /I/) in low-prestige British dialect.
On the contrary: our acrolect, RP, uses it. But very few people speak
RP: typically royalty, aristocrats, some BBC presenters and a minority
of Tory MPs.
Markus Laker.
[a.g.l removed from follow-ups. Whatever goes on there, I'm sure it's
not this.]
Bob Cunningham
das...@netcom.com (Anton Sherwood) said:
[...]
>My vowel in "bank" or "ankle" is higher and fronter than that
>in "back", but it's still very different from that in "rain".
>And there's no off-glide.
How do your "a"s in "angle" and "angel" compare?
I've only recently realized that a lot of people pronounce things like
"ankle" and "angle" in a way that is different from the way I pronounce
them. The contrasting pronunciations that I find the most surprising,
though, are the ones shown in the dictionaries for "angle" and "angel".
I find it hard to accept that anyone would really pronounce the "a"s
differently, even though MWCD shows /'&Ng@l/ and /'EindZ@l/.
--
For a world language that has many different pronunciations
the most equitable orthography is one that fits none of them.
World English has been blessed with such an orthography.
-- Woody Wordpecker, 1996
R. Sournois-Jambon, Los Angeles, California, USA
Bob Cunningham
kci...@cpcug.org (Keith C. Ivey) said:
>la...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker) wrote:
[...]
>>Bonus question: does anyone agree with COD9's rendition of 'atheism',
>>/'eITIIz(@)m/, or do you find it unpronounceable and prefer
>>/'eITiIz(@)m/?
>
>Of course, but then I have /i/ in a lot of places where COD9 has
>/I/ (I think -- I don't have COD9) -- at the end of all those
>"-y" words, for example.
I don't have COD9 either, but I do have the 1993 edition of _The New
Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_. It doesn't have /I/ at the end of
all those "-y" words; it has /i/. It has /'eITIIz(@)m/, though.
Philip Eden
ad...@lafn.org (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
>How do your "a"s in "angle" and "angel" compare?
>
>I've only recently realized that a lot of people pronounce things like
>"ankle" and "angle" in a way that is different from the way I pronounce
>them. The contrasting pronunciations that I find the most surprising,
>though, are the ones shown in the dictionaries for "angle" and "angel".
>I find it hard to accept that anyone would really pronounce the "a"s
>differently, even though MWCD shows /'&Ng@l/ and /'EindZ@l/.
>
>For a world language that has many different pronunciations
>the most equitable orthography is one that fits none of them.
>World English has been blessed with such an orthography.
> -- Woody Wordpecker, 1996
>R. Sournois-Jambon, Los Angeles, California, USA
This is what I like about this ng. I had never even considered
that anyone could pronounce the "a"s in "angle" and "angel"
the same - not that I had ever had cause to think about it
until this thread started.As others have suggested, I think that
most BrEng speakers would make a clear difference - maybe this
is because we have a wider range of "a" sounds than you do in
AmEng.
For what it's worth, my "a" in "angel" is different from my
"a" in "Angela" and "banjo" which in turn is similar to my
"a" in "angle", so the difference is nothing to do with the
soft "g".
Philip Eden
Lee Rudolph
la...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker) writes:
>(I was alarmed to discover in COD9 this evening that 'ISDN' stands for
>'intergrated services digital network'. For some reason, 'intergrate'
>isn't a headword. Must find out what it means.)
Canonical mode of disappearance for a child's ball, or a coin dropped
on the sidewalk (the latter then often being recovered by fishing with
chewing gum affixed to the end of a long string).
Or would that be "intragrate"? How sharper than a serpent's tooth!
Lee Rudolph
ch...@w11.u-net.com
Sorry to go off thread, but this discussion reminded me of a church
sign in the London (UK) surburb of Barnes. Painted in gilt and light
blue on nicely finished wood, it specifies the hours of service for St
Michael's of All Angles.
ad...@lafn.org (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
>das...@netcom.com (Anton Sherwood) said:
>>My vowel in "bank" or "ankle" is higher and fronter than that
>>in "back", but it's still very different from that in "rain".
>>And there's no off-glide.
>
Bob Cunningham
la...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker) said:
[...]
>COD9's introductory material states:
>
> Finally, the pronunciations have been thoroughly revised,
> giving a more up-to-date representation of the standard
> British English accent (Received Pronunciation) . . . .
For comparison, here's what it says in COD8:
Guidance on pronunciation [...] is based on the
pronunciation associated especially with
southern England (sometimes called
'Received Pronunciation').
>COD9 gives no pronunciation for 'slowly', but its two renditions of
>'contumely' both end in /li/. Your edition of NSOED was published only
>two years before COD9; perhaps it has undergone the same thorough
>revisions as COD9.
NSOED/93 has wording that sounds as if the writer was picking his or her
way cautiously through a minefield:
The pronunciations shown are those which can safely be
regarded as allowable in British English at the present
time, within the form of received pronunciation that does
not give rise to any negative social judgement when heard
by most native speakers. An attempt has been made to
represent the English spoken by the current generation,
older forms being discarded where necessary, but absence
of a variant need not indicate that it is completely
unacceptable, and the order of variants need not be one
of decreasing frequency.
>However, OED2 ends 'slowly' in /lI/. This is perfectly representative
>of the way BBC presenters used to speak forty years ago, and the way
>retired colonels still speak today.
Bob Cunningham
la...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker) said:
>ad...@lafn.org (Bob Cunningham):
>
>> The contrasting pronunciations that I find the most surprising,
>> though, are the ones shown in the dictionaries for "angle" and "angel".
>> I find it hard to accept that anyone would really pronounce the "a"s
>> differently, even though MWCD shows /'&Ng@l/ and /'EindZ@l/.
>
>But people do. I do, and so does everyone around me. And such
>apparently arbitrary differences are nothing unusual.
But my incredulity was based not on logic but on the fact that I had
always used -- and thought I had heard -- the same sound in the two
words.
> Compare the
>following word pairs:
>
>'agent' /'eIg@nt/ vs. 'agile' /'&dZaIl/ UK, /'&dZ@l/ US.
>'engine' /'EndZIn/ vs. 'English' /'INglIS/
In my idiolect it's /'IndZ@n/ and /'i:NgliS/ (maybe even /i:Ngli:S/).
>'irate' /aI'reIt/ vs. 'irascible' /I'r&sIb@l/
>'oral' /'O:r@l/ vs. 'orange' /'A.rIndZ/
And I have /'O:r@l/ and /'O:rindZ/ (maybe even /'Ori:ndZ/).
I might have used as examples "sorry" /'sA:ri:/ and "sorrel" /'sO:rl-/.
I'm not sure about "sorrow", though. I'll have to see if I can catch
myself saying it in an unguarded moment.
>Admittedly, I couldn't find example beginning in 'u', but you get the
>point.
How about "united", /'ju:,nAit@d/ in certain rhythmic patterns, and
"untied", /'Vn'tAid/?
>> For a world language that has many different pronunciations
>> the most equitable orthography is one that fits none of them.
>> World English has been blessed with such an orthography.
-- Woody Wordpecker
>
>Eloquently put.
Thank you.
Aaron J. Dinkin
In article <33db261b....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, ad...@lafn.org (Bob
Cunningham) wrote:
>la...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker) said:
>
>>ad...@lafn.org (Bob Cunningham):
>>
>> Compare the
>>following word pairs:
>>
>>'agent' /'eIg@nt/ vs. 'agile' /'&dZaIl/ UK, /'&dZ@l/ US.
>>'engine' /'EndZIn/ vs. 'English' /'INglIS/
>
>In my idiolect it's /'IndZ@n/ and /'i:NgliS/ (maybe even /i:Ngli:S/).
Really? "Engine" is a homophone of "Injun"? "English" is "Engleesh"? Wow.
>>'irate' /aI'reIt/ vs. 'irascible' /I'r&sIb@l/
>>'oral' /'O:r@l/ vs. 'orange' /'A.rIndZ/
>
>And I have /'O:r@l/ and /'O:rindZ/ (maybe even /'Ori:ndZ/).
>
>I might have used as examples "sorry" /'sA:ri:/ and "sorrel" /'sO:rl-/.
>I'm not sure about "sorrow", though. I'll have to see if I can catch
>myself saying it in an unguarded moment.
I say /'Or@l/, /'Ar@ndZ/, /'sAri/, and /'sAr@l/. "Aural" is /'Ar@l/.
Aaron J. Dinkin
Bob Cunningham
adi...@commschool.org (Aaron J. Dinkin) said:
>In article <33db261b....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, ad...@lafn.org (Bob
>Cunningham) wrote:
[...]
>>>'engine' /'EndZIn/ vs. 'English' /'INglIS/
>>
>>In my idiolect it's /'IndZ@n/ and /'i:NgliS/ (maybe even /i:Ngli:S/).
>
>Really? "Engine" is a homophone of "Injun"?
Yes. Although I don't say /'IndZ@n/ for "Indian" anymore, if I ever
did, I think you may still be able to find people in Utah for whom
"Indian" and "engine" are homophones.
> "English" is "Engleesh"? Wow.
"Eengleesh" is closer to it.
Myrddin MacLeod
> T. Shannon Gilvary wrote:
> > On 18 Jun 1997 13:44:17 GMT, "Gwendolen" <Gw...@Scooziepie.com> wrote:
> > >I've been interested in the origin and history of playground rhymes, and
> > >I've been amazed at how widespread and well known this little rhyme is:
> > >I see Paris. I see France;
> > >I see someone's underpants.
> > >Some questions come to mind. How old and how widespread is this rhyme?
> > >What is its origin? Who in God's name wrote it and why?
> > I knew it 24 years ago, I'm from New Jersey, USA.
> I knew it over 45 years ago, in New York, New York (USA).
> Anyone in the UK ever heard it as a child?
> --
> Larry Krakauer (lar...@kronos.com)
From the UK, and yes, I heard it here. I've seen one reply from someone down below who says they haven't and from the UK. My grandmas knew of the rhyme, one from central West England, and one bordering Scotland. I heard it as a child, living in London, and haven't really thought much on it until today.
Peter Moylan
child. And even Dr Seuss published a variant of it, in "The Eye Book".
Our eyes see flies.
Our eyes see ants.
Sometimes they see
pink underpants.
I'm worried about my memory. More and more often, when someone exhumes
an ancient thread I don't recognise the names of the posters.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Joy Beeson
recall my little friends being rude enough to use it.
Either that, or we were all very good at keeping our underpants out of
sight.
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at centurylink dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
Mack A. Damia
<jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>On Fri, 2 Jul 2021 16:10:49 -0700 (PDT), Myrddin MacLeod
><mirudi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, June 18, 1997 at 8:00:00 AM UTC+1, Larry Krakauer wrote:
>> > T. Shannon Gilvary wrote:
>> > > On 18 Jun 1997 13:44:17 GMT, "Gwendolen" <Gw...@Scooziepie.com> wrote:
>> > > >I've been interested in the origin and history of playground rhymes, and
>> > > >I've been amazed at how widespread and well known this little rhyme is:
>> > > >I see Paris. I see France;
>> > > >I see someone's underpants.
>> > > >Some questions come to mind. How old and how widespread is this rhyme?
>> > > >What is its origin? Who in God's name wrote it and why?
>> > > I knew it 24 years ago, I'm from New Jersey, USA.
>> > I knew it over 45 years ago, in New York, New York (USA).
>> > Anyone in the UK ever heard it as a child?
>> > --
>> > Larry Krakauer (lar...@kronos.com)
>>
>> From the UK, and yes, I heard it here. I've seen one reply from someone down below who says they haven't and from the UK. My grandmas knew of the rhyme, one from central West England, and one bordering Scotland. I heard it as a child, living in London, and haven't really thought much on it until today.
>
>I knew of it as a child in central Indiana, late forties, but I don't
>recall my little friends being rude enough to use it.
>
>Either that, or we were all very good at keeping our underpants out of
>sight.
My cousin and his children went to a playground one Sunday afternoon.
What surprised me was the number of girls wearing skirts - late
childhood and possibly younger teens - who would hang upside down
from a horizontal bar.
Of course, underpants were in plain site, and I noticed old men
sitting around pretending not to look. Those were still the days when
girls did not wear slacks/shorts, especially on a Sunday.
The tabloids were often reporting sex crimes involving children, too.
I mentioned this to my cousin. No comment.
Common sense ain't too common.
CDB
see France".
Jerry Friedman
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
The lingerie store (or chain?) I See London used to advertise in The New
Yorker. It may not exist any more, but there are such establishments around
the world. Google searches are interfered with by some band that seems to
have a song "I see London, I see France," which gets the first dozen or more
hits. I changed the search to < "I see London" lingerie store > to get the more
relevant ones.
Quinn C
as well-known in the US.
Radio Yerevan was asked:
Is it true that Ivan Ivanovich has won a red car in the lottery?
Radio Yerevan answered:
In principle, yes. But it wasn't Ivan Ivanovich, it was Petr
Petrovich. And it wasn't a red car, it was a blue bicycle. And he
didn't win it, it was stolen from him. Other than that, the story is
true.
--
Mrs. Quinn: Is he alright?
Sister Michael: I wouldn't say so, no. He's a priest, like.
-- Derry Girls, series 1, episode 3
Peter Moylan
> The lingerie store (or chain?) I See London used to advertise in The
> New Yorker. It may not exist any more, but there are such
> establishments around the world. Google searches are interfered with
> by some band that seems to have a song "I see London, I see France,"
> which gets the first dozen or more hits. I changed the search to < "I
> see London" lingerie store > to get the more relevant ones.
boosted the priority of popular music, which is messing up searches for
those of us whose musical tastes were formed in an earlier generation.
A different complication arises when I want to refresh my memory of some
event from the 1950s or 1960s. The people who write web pages have no
memory of that era. Or perhaps it's just that the web sites that do
mention that era have sunk too low in Google's ranking, just as my own
web site has been buried under baseball statistics.
Peter T. Daniels
> On 06/07/21 05:14, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > The lingerie store (or chain?) I See London used to advertise in The
> > New Yorker. It may not exist any more, but there are such
> > establishments around the world. Google searches are interfered with
> > by some band that seems to have a song "I see London, I see France,"
> > which gets the first dozen or more hits. I changed the search to < "I
> > see London" lingerie store > to get the more relevant ones.
>
> This seems to happen a lot in Google searches. It's as if Google has
> boosted the priority of popular music, which is messing up searches for
> those of us whose musical tastes were formed in an earlier generation.
aberrations, while "I see London" is known worldwide.
> A different complication arises when I want to refresh my memory of some
> event from the 1950s or 1960s. The people who write web pages have no
> memory of that era. Or perhaps it's just that the web sites that do
> mention that era have sunk too low in Google's ranking, just as my own
> web site has been buried under baseball statistics.
web sites in those days. There have been projects to digitize runs of
newspapers and magazines, but they aren't often completed.
The miniaturist Nicholson Baker has written extensively about the loss
of the 20th century. Reference libraries thought microfilm was the medium
of the future and disposed of their complete runs of bound periodicals --
selling them to those companies who would provide you with the Actual
Front Page Of Your Hometown Newspaper from your birthday. Even the
British Museum and the Chicago Public Library.
Microfilms were rarely done carefully; and there was no such thing as
color microfilm. He especially lamented the near-complete loss of the
color comic pages, including things like Little Nemo and Krazy Kat (some
of the first surrealist art people ever saw -- think Calvin & Hobbes). He
established a repository for such newspaper runs as he could salvage,
so that at least some might be preserved. The condition was often near
pristine, especially if the volumes had never been consulted since they
were shelved.
Peter Moylan
> The miniaturist Nicholson Baker has written extensively about the
> loss of the 20th century. Reference libraries thought microfilm was
> the medium of the future and disposed of their complete runs of bound
> periodicals -- selling them to those companies who would provide you
> with the Actual Front Page Of Your Hometown Newspaper from your
> birthday. Even the British Museum and the Chicago Public Library.
>
> Microfilms were rarely done carefully; and there was no such thing
> as color microfilm. He especially lamented the near-complete loss of
> the color comic pages, including things like Little Nemo and Krazy
> Kat (some of the first surrealist art people ever saw -- think Calvin
> & Hobbes). He established a repository for such newspaper runs as he
> could salvage, so that at least some might be preserved. The
> condition was often near pristine, especially if the volumes had
> never been consulted since they were shelved.
with a one-year warranty.
Peter T. Daniels
It's not impossible that (some of?) my 5 1/4 and 3 1/2 inch diskettes
are still readable -- but how could I find out?
bruce bowser
Mack A. Damia
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Floppy+disk+reader&i=electronics&ref=nb_sb_noss
Tak To
Atlantic/ on the subject of "link rot" -- urls that over time
cease to point to the original item.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Peter T. Daniels
Two things. The ones that list which Windowses they're compatible with
don't include Windows 10 -- and I once came across a CD-ROM of a game
(it would have been a Scrabble or a Tetris, most likely) and it was rejected
because it was an 8-bit program that couldn't run on a 16-bit machine, or
maybe it was a 16-bit program that couldn't run on a 32-bit machine.
Kerr-Mudd, John
> On Tuesday, July 6, 2021 at 11:49:45 AM UTC-4, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > On Tue, 6 Jul 2021 05:46:32 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> > <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > >On Tuesday, July 6, 2021 at 8:14:00 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> > >> For a lot of applications, microfilm was subsequently replaced by disks
> > >> with a one-year warranty.
> > >That was my best LOL ever!
> > >It's not impossible that (some of?) my 5 1/4 and 3 1/2 inch diskettes
> > >are still readable -- but how could I find out?
> >
> > Don't know about the 5-1/4, but the 3-1/2:
> >
> > https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Floppy+disk+reader&i=electronics&ref=nb_sb_noss
>
> Might have been useful, some years ago.
>
> Two things. The ones that list which Windowses they're compatible with
> don't include Windows 10 -- and I once came across a CD-ROM of a game
> (it would have been a Scrabble or a Tetris, most likely) and it was rejected
> because it was an 8-bit program that couldn't run on a 16-bit machine, or
> maybe it was a 16-bit program that couldn't run on a 32-bit machine.
INAScrabblefan, but it doesn't need a big word size or fancy graphics.
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
J. J. Lodder
done by some Russian programmers,
with black and white Rusian graphics.
It also put some Russian earworms into your brain,
one for each level,
Jan
(who can still hear at least one)
Peter Moylan
was not necessarily readable on another. Many PC clones used very cheap
floppy drives, whose track alignment varied from OK to terrible.
The disks themselves were rugged enough. There are plenty of people who
accidentally did things like driving a car over an 8" floppy, without
loss of data. The problem was with the crappy drives.
The introduction of the 3 1/2 "floppy" was a major step forward in
reliability. As I recall it, you could originally get those only on the
Apple Macintosh and Lisa, but it wasn't long before they became
available for other personal computers.
Peter Moylan
> On a somewhat related note: there is a recent article in /The
> Atlantic/ on the subject of "link rot" -- urls that over time cease
> to point to the original item.
rent your domain back to you at a highly inflated price. That might have
been the beginning of the concept of ransomware.
Adam Funk
brainwaves!
--
If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to
worry about the answers. ---Thomas Pynchon
Peter T. Daniels
in Chicago (they don't do the regional ones any more) to check out this
new thing called "desktop publishing" (and we ended up getting a Mac
system, because PCs couldn't or could barely do graphics yet), and the
actual guy who had actually invented Tetris was at a booth demonstrating
the game. (It had color by then.)
Hmm, that same year the great Orientalist I. M. Diakonoff was finally
allowed to come to Chicago to receive an honorary degree. He arrived
at O'Hare without a kopeck in his pocket.
Quinn C
on DOS (not Windows). I think I was fairly good at it, but it got beyond
playable speed over time on the 386(?) machines we had at the institute.
Mathematical institute, not a psychiatric one.
--
There is, at a women's college, always some emancipating
encouragement for those with masculine tastes for such things
as mathematics, philosophy, and friendship.
-- Jane Rule, This Is Not For You, p.15
J. J. Lodder
This is what the original Tetris for Mac looked like.
<https://www.killgruz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/tetristitle.png>
The 1988 version, and still fully in black and white,
Jan