Pronunciation of "encephalitis"

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

I just heard a part of a tv program about three young people who
had no brian memory at all. They could function physically and
would appear normal, but three minutes after they had seen a
shopping list with three items, they had forgotten what they
were. They had no recollection of what they did yesterday.

That, however, is not my subject. When talking about their
condition we learned that it in one case had been caused by
encephalitis - pronounced with a k: enkephalitis.

I assumed that the speaker didn't know any better, but then we
visited a clinic where they dealt with that sort of problems, and
the desk person also had a k.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Steve Hayes]

I've heard it pronounced both ways, but my own preference is for the
k, perhaps influenced by the Greek origin.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Mike Barnes]

With a k is the only way I know it.

It's a trap for the unwary.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

[Cheryl]

I think 'k' is an acceptable variant pronunciation, but very uncommon in
my part of the world. A quick dictionary check says the 'k'
pronunciation is UK English.

--
Cheryl

[the Omrud]

As some have said, it's standard in BrE. The word is better known than
might be thought because of frequent references to BSE a few years ago.

--
David

[bert]

On Sunday, 27 September 2015 19:07:05 UTC+1, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:40:37 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
> <gad...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> > encephalitis - pronounced with a k: enkephalitis.

> I've heard it pronounced both ways, but my own preference is for the
> k, perhaps influenced by the Greek origin.

But on the other hand (or head) I've always heard
that cephalopods are sephalopods, not kephalopods.
--

[Will Parsons]

On Sunday, 27 Sep 2015 2:06 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:40:37 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
><gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>
>>I just heard a part of a tv program about three young people who
>>had no brian memory at all. They could function physically and
>>would appear normal, but three minutes after they had seen a
>>shopping list with three items, they had forgotten what they
>>were. They had no recollection of what they did yesterday.
>>
>>That, however, is not my subject. When talking about their
>>condition we learned that it in one case had been caused by
>>encephalitis - pronounced with a k: enkephalitis.
>>
>>I assumed that the speaker didn't know any better, but then we
>>visited a clinic where they dealt with that sort of problems, and
>>the desk person also had a k.
>
> I've heard it pronounced both ways, but my own preference is for the
> k, perhaps influenced by the Greek origin.

Do you pronounce "autocephalous" with a [k]?

--
Will

[Ross]

Perhaps not of all that long standing. Jones V (1940) has only /s/.
Jones XVIII (2011) has /k/, then /s/. Time, place and motives for
the change would be interesting to know.

[Joe Fineman]

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:

> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:40:37 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

[...]

>>That, however, is not my subject. When talking about their
>>condition we learned that it in one case had been caused by
>>encephalitis - pronounced with a k: enkephalitis.
>>
>>I assumed that the speaker didn't know any better, but then we
>>visited a clinic where they dealt with that sort of problems, and
>>the desk person also had a k.
>
> I've heard it pronounced both ways, but my own preference is for the
> k, perhaps influenced by the Greek origin.

When a Greek root is taken into English, it is regular and normal to
subject it to the phonetic changes that would have occurred if it had
passed thru Latin & thence into early Modern English, whether or not
that actually happened. The pronunciation of "cybernetics", which was
invented in 1948, shows the usual pattern.

A similar (and unfortunately more successful) example of perverse
pronunciation is the g in "gynecology", which ought to be pronounced
like j as it is in "androgynous". AHD gives that possibility second.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: Hard cases make bad law. :||

[Will Parsons]

+1

--
Will

[Robert Bannister]

I hear it both ways. I have never heard anyone 'correct' anyone else.
For myself, I tend to only used the k sound for a cheese I sometimes
buy: kephelograveira, I think it would be spelt in English.


--
Robert Bannister
Perth, Western Australia

[Steve Hayes]

I don't think I've ever heard "cephalopod" pronouned, I've only seen
it written. But if I were to speak it, I would use the k sound, just
as I do for "autocephalous".

[Steve Hayes]

On 27 Sep 2015 20:02:46 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>
wrote:

Hmm, I already volunteered the answer to that, but yes, I do.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 18:09:10 -0400, Joe Fineman <jo...@verizon.net>
wrote:

How about polygamy and polygyny?

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:39:53 +0100, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
wrote:

And then there is Celtic and celtic.

[Derek Turner]

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:40:37 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:

> I assumed that the speaker didn't know any better, but then we visited a
> clinic where they dealt with that sort of problems, and the desk person
> also had a k.

Those with the benefit of a classical education will pronounce these
Greek-derived words with with a hard C (kappa). You can always tell the
clergy who have studies the Greek NT by the way they pronounce Cephas
(Peter). I am pedantic enough to do it with ceramics.

[Will Parsons]

On Sunday, 27 Sep 2015 9:06 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On 27 Sep 2015 20:02:46 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, 27 Sep 2015 2:06 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:40:37 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
>>><gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I just heard a part of a tv program about three young people who
>>>>had no brian memory at all. They could function physically and
>>>>would appear normal, but three minutes after they had seen a
>>>>shopping list with three items, they had forgotten what they
>>>>were. They had no recollection of what they did yesterday.
>>>>
>>>>That, however, is not my subject. When talking about their
>>>>condition we learned that it in one case had been caused by
>>>>encephalitis - pronounced with a k: enkephalitis.
>>>>
>>>>I assumed that the speaker didn't know any better, but then we
>>>>visited a clinic where they dealt with that sort of problems, and
>>>>the desk person also had a k.
>>>
>>> I've heard it pronounced both ways, but my own preference is for the
>>> k, perhaps influenced by the Greek origin.
>>
>>Do you pronounce "autocephalous" with a [k]?
>
> Hmm, I already volunteered the answer to that, but yes, I do.

Sorry if I missed that, but I'm surprised.

--
Will

[Will Parsons]

On Sunday, 27 Sep 2015 9:07 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 18:09:10 -0400, Joe Fineman <jo...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:40:37 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
>>> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>[...]
>>>>That, however, is not my subject. When talking about their
>>>>condition we learned that it in one case had been caused by
>>>>encephalitis - pronounced with a k: enkephalitis.
>>>>
>>>>I assumed that the speaker didn't know any better, but then we
>>>>visited a clinic where they dealt with that sort of problems, and
>>>>the desk person also had a k.
>>>
>>> I've heard it pronounced both ways, but my own preference is for the
>>> k, perhaps influenced by the Greek origin.
>>
>>When a Greek root is taken into English, it is regular and normal to
>>subject it to the phonetic changes that would have occurred if it had
>>passed thru Latin & thence into early Modern English, whether or not
>>that actually happened. The pronunciation of "cybernetics", which was
>>invented in 1948, shows the usual pattern.
>>
>>A similar (and unfortunately more successful) example of perverse
>>pronunciation is the g in "gynecology", which ought to be pronounced
>>like j as it is in "androgynous". AHD gives that possibility second.
>
> How about polygamy and polygyny?

No problem - follow the rules: [g] for the first; [dʒ] for the second.

--
Will

[Will Parsons]

On Sunday, 27 Sep 2015 9:05 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 12:54:22 -0700 (PDT), bert
><bert.hu...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, 27 September 2015 19:07:05 UTC+1, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:40:37 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
>>> <gad...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>> > encephalitis - pronounced with a k: enkephalitis.
>>> I've heard it pronounced both ways, but my own preference is for the
>>> k, perhaps influenced by the Greek origin.
>>But on the other hand (or head) I've always heard
>>that cephalopods are sephalopods, not kephalopods.
>
> I don't think I've ever heard "cephalopod" pronouned, I've only seen
> it written. But if I were to speak it, I would use the k sound, just
> as I do for "autocephalous".

I'm amazed. I *have* heard "cephalopod" pronounced, and it's always
with a [s]. And I can't imagine saying "autocephalous" with a [k].

(Really, if one feels *compelled* to say these words with a [k], can't
one *spell* them with a K?)

--
Will

[Steve Hayes]

On 28 Sep 2015 01:58:13 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>

No, you didn't miss it, I jusr read your comment on it. Your
newsreader must sort differently to mine.

[Steve Hayes]

On 28 Sep 2015 01:59:51 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>
wrote:

>No problem - follow the rules: [g] for the first; [d?] for the second.

The rule being?

First occurrence pronounced one way, second another?

[Will Parsons]

You are not a true pedant. A true pedant *always* pronounces C as [s]
before a "soft" vowel (i.e., E, I, or Y). If one feels the need for
pronouncing the equivalent of κ otherwise, then he or she should have
the courage to spell it with a K!

Consider the name of the Athenian statesman Κίμων, traditionally
transliterated "Cimon" - pronounced confusingly alike with the Hebrew
name "Simon". The modern tendency is to transliterate it "Kimon" - a
better indication of the pronunciation.

--
William B. Parsons
pedant extraordinaire, and master of the recherché!

[Jerry Friedman]

On 9/27/15 7:46 PM, Derek Turner wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:40:37 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:

[encephalitis]

>> I assumed that the speaker didn't know any better, but then we visited a
>> clinic where they dealt with that sort of problems, and the desk person
>> also had a k.
>
> Those with the benefit of a classical education will pronounce these
> Greek-derived words with with a hard C (kappa). You can always tell the
> clergy who have studies the Greek NT by the way they pronounce Cephas
> (Peter). I am pedantic enough to do it with ceramics.

And "cinema"? I heard that in some Alec Guinness movie, possibly /The
Lavender Hill Mob/.

As far as I know, the only pronunciation in the U.S. is with an /s/,
even for people with a classical education. Same with "cyst", "cynic",
"cyanide", "hydrocele", "rhinoceros", et cetera.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On 9/27/15 8:34 PM, Will Parsons wrote:
> On Sunday, 27 Sep 2015 9:46 PM -0400, Derek Turner wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:40:37 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>
>>> I assumed that the speaker didn't know any better, but then we visited a
>>> clinic where they dealt with that sort of problems, and the desk person
>>> also had a k.
>>
>> Those with the benefit of a classical education will pronounce these
>> Greek-derived words with with a hard C (kappa). You can always tell the
>> clergy who have studies the Greek NT by the way they pronounce Cephas
>> (Peter). I am pedantic enough to do it with ceramics.
>
> You are not a true pedant. A true pedant *always* pronounces C as [s]
> before a "soft" vowel (i.e., E, I, or Y).

The British will be sceptical.

> If one feels the need for
> pronouncing the equivalent of κ otherwise, then he or she should have
> the courage to spell it with a K!

...

True pedants say, "If one feels the need... then /one/ should have the
courage..."

--
Jerry Friedman

[Will Parsons]

I stand corrected.

--
Will

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 20:56:45 -0600, Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 9/27/15 8:34 PM, Will Parsons wrote:
>> On Sunday, 27 Sep 2015 9:46 PM -0400, Derek Turner wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:40:37 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>>
>>>> I assumed that the speaker didn't know any better, but then we visited a
>>>> clinic where they dealt with that sort of problems, and the desk person
>>>> also had a k.
>>>
>>> Those with the benefit of a classical education will pronounce these
>>> Greek-derived words with with a hard C (kappa). You can always tell the
>>> clergy who have studies the Greek NT by the way they pronounce Cephas
>>> (Peter). I am pedantic enough to do it with ceramics.
>>
>> You are not a true pedant. A true pedant *always* pronounces C as [s]
>> before a "soft" vowel (i.e., E, I, or Y).
>
>The British will be sceptical.
>
>> If one feels the need for

>> pronouncing the equivalent of ? otherwise, then he or she should have

>> the courage to spell it with a K!
>...
>
>True pedants say, "If one feels the need... then /one/ should have the
>courage..."

No, that's just normal English, not pedantry.

Will's example seems much more like true pedantry, since he enunciates
a rule I've never heard of. I'd also never heard of a "soft" vowel.

True pedants will strain at a gnat, like a soft vowel, and swallow a
camel, like the one-he construction.

[anal...@hotmail.com]

There is no evidence that "Cicero" etc. had [k] sounds. It is all based on linguistician claptrap. I have to find a hilarious remembered bit in which Fowler grudgingly gives up 'Boadicea" for "Boudicca" which he attributes to "the learned"

[Oliver Cromm]

* Derek Turner:

Dictionaries, including British ones, don't even mentioned the /k/
as an alternative in "cephalosporin", "hydrocephaly" or
"microcephaly", three from the list of -ceph- words that I
recognized.

--
Humans write software and while a piece of software might be
bug free humans are not. - Robert Klemme

[Oliver Cromm]

* anal...@hotmail.com:

> On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 9:46:15 PM UTC-4, Derek Turner wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:40:37 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>
>>> I assumed that the speaker didn't know any better, but then we visited a
>>> clinic where they dealt with that sort of problems, and the desk person
>>> also had a k.
>>
>> Those with the benefit of a classical education will pronounce these
>> Greek-derived words with with a hard C (kappa). You can always tell the
>> clergy who have studies the Greek NT by the way they pronounce Cephas
>> (Peter). I am pedantic enough to do it with ceramics.
>
> There is no evidence that "Cicero" etc. had [k] sounds. It is
> all based on linguistician claptrap.

There is no evidence of evolution. It's all based on
paleontologistician claptrap.

--
Pentiums melt in your PC, not in your hand.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Steve Hayes:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciation_of_Latin>

And read the first sentence before you protest! All scientific
vocabulary is treated as "borrowed through Latin".

More specifically:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciation_of_Latin#Palatalization>
Palatalization 2

The rule is quite parallel in French, Spanish or Italian (and
probably other Romance languages).

--
Q: What do computer engineers use for birth control?
A: Their personalities.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Will Parsons:

> On Sunday, 27 Sep 2015 9:05 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 12:54:22 -0700 (PDT), bert
>><bert.hu...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sunday, 27 September 2015 19:07:05 UTC+1, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:40:37 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
>>>> <gad...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>>> > encephalitis - pronounced with a k: enkephalitis.
>>>> I've heard it pronounced both ways, but my own preference is for the
>>>> k, perhaps influenced by the Greek origin.
>>>But on the other hand (or head) I've always heard
>>>that cephalopods are sephalopods, not kephalopods.
>>
>> I don't think I've ever heard "cephalopod" pronouned, I've only seen
>> it written. But if I were to speak it, I would use the k sound, just
>> as I do for "autocephalous".
>
> I'm amazed. I *have* heard "cephalopod" pronounced, and it's always
> with a [s]. And I can't imagine saying "autocephalous" with a [k].

I'm less surprised, because "autocephalous" is religious
vocabulary directly borrowed from Greek-speaking, not
Latin-speaking churches. Scientific vocabulary, like "cephalopod"
or "encephalitis", OTOH, is usually read by the rules of Latin.

> (Really, if one feels *compelled* to say these words with a [k], can't
> one *spell* them with a K?)

One ought. Then again, for g, there is no alternative. So how do
you order a "gyros"? I hardly recognized it when my colleague said
it just like the first part of "gyroscope" (even dropping the s).

--
Software is getting slower
more rapidly than hardware becomes faster
--Wirth's law

[anal...@hotmail.com]

Of course. In fact linguisticians' claptrap resembles that of evolutionists in some respects ("genetic" relationships among languages).

[Joe Fineman]

Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid> writes:

> I'm amazed. I *have* heard "cephalopod" pronounced, and it's always
> with a [s]. And I can't imagine saying "autocephalous" with a [k].
>
> (Really, if one feels *compelled* to say these words with a [k], can't
> one *spell* them with a K?)

That is, indeed, another possibility. One may (tho one seldom does)
take in a raw Greek word, without pretending it came thru Latin in the
usual way. For example, in the OED we find kyanite, "variant of
cyanite, now more usual". "Autarky" is a more familiar example.

--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: The Pacific was named by people who were used to the North :||
||: Atlantic. :||

[Joe Fineman]

Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:

> On 9/27/15 7:46 PM, Derek Turner wrote:

>> Those with the benefit of a classical education will pronounce these
>> Greek-derived words with with a hard C (kappa). You can always tell the
>> clergy who have studies the Greek NT by the way they pronounce Cephas
>> (Peter). I am pedantic enough to do it with ceramics.
>
> And "cinema"? I heard that in some Alec Guinness movie, possibly /The
> Lavender Hill Mob/.

I had forgotten about that one. There we have a nicely contrasted pair:
"cinematic" by the side of "kinematic", from the same Greek word.

--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: There's nothing between the North Pole and Texas but a :||
||: barbed-wire fence. :||

[Steve Hayes]

And that nisi prius nuisance, the judicial humorist.

How do you pronounce Prius as in Toyota?

[Robert Bannister]

On 29/09/2015 6:07 am, Oliver Cromm wrote:

> One ought. Then again, for g, there is no alternative. So how do
> you order a "gyros"? I hardly recognized it when my colleague said
> it just like the first part of "gyroscope" (even dropping the s).
>

In South Australia, the places selling them spell it as it is
pronounced: yiros.

[Robert Bannister]

On 28/09/2015 9:07 am, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 18:09:10 -0400, Joe Fineman <jo...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:40:37 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
>>> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>> [...]
>>>> That, however, is not my subject. When talking about their
>>>> condition we learned that it in one case had been caused by
>>>> encephalitis - pronounced with a k: enkephalitis.
>>>>
>>>> I assumed that the speaker didn't know any better, but then we
>>>> visited a clinic where they dealt with that sort of problems, and
>>>> the desk person also had a k.
>>>
>>> I've heard it pronounced both ways, but my own preference is for the
>>> k, perhaps influenced by the Greek origin.
>>
>> When a Greek root is taken into English, it is regular and normal to
>> subject it to the phonetic changes that would have occurred if it had
>> passed thru Latin & thence into early Modern English, whether or not
>> that actually happened. The pronunciation of "cybernetics", which was
>> invented in 1948, shows the usual pattern.
>>
>> A similar (and unfortunately more successful) example of perverse
>> pronunciation is the g in "gynecology", which ought to be pronounced
>> like j as it is in "androgynous". AHD gives that possibility second.
>
> How about polygamy and polygyny?
>
>

And considering the way the Greek alphebet goes, they're all strange:
alpha, vetta, yamma, delta...

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, September 28, 2015 at 6:07:47 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> * Will Parsons:

> > (Really, if one feels *compelled* to say these words with a [k], can't
> > one *spell* them with a K?)
>
> One ought. Then again, for g, there is no alternative. So how do
> you order a "gyros"? I hardly recognized it when my colleague said
> it just like the first part of "gyroscope" (even dropping the s).

The only one who needs to recognize it is the person taking the order, and
what they recognize is (usually) exactly that.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Oliver Cromm:

> * Will Parsons:
>
>> On Sunday, 27 Sep 2015 9:05 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think I've ever heard "cephalopod" pronouned, I've only seen
>>> it written. But if I were to speak it, I would use the k sound, just
>>> as I do for "autocephalous".
>>
>> I'm amazed. I *have* heard "cephalopod" pronounced, and it's always
>> with a [s]. And I can't imagine saying "autocephalous" with a [k].
>
> I'm less surprised, because "autocephalous" is religious
> vocabulary directly borrowed from Greek-speaking, not
> Latin-speaking churches. Scientific vocabulary, like "cephalopod"
> or "encephalitis", OTOH, is usually read by the rules of Latin.
>
>> (Really, if one feels *compelled* to say these words with a [k], can't
>> one *spell* them with a K?)
>
> One ought.

Oh, and one does in German: "autokephalisch", but "Enzephalitis".
No discussion about the pronunciations.

--
Are you sure your sanity chip is fully screwed in?
-- Kryten to Rimmer (Red Dwarf)

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Oliver Cromm skrev:

>> (Really, if one feels *compelled* to say these words with a [k], can't
>> one *spell* them with a K?)

> One ought. Then again, for g, there is no alternative.

One could use j for the "dj-sound, and g for the hard g, which
gives "jyroscope".

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Oliver Cromm]

* Steve Hayes:

> On Mon, 28 Sep 2015 18:02:35 -0400, Oliver Cromm
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>* Steve Hayes:
>>
>>> On 28 Sep 2015 01:59:51 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sunday, 27 Sep 2015 9:07 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 18:09:10 -0400, Joe Fineman <jo...@verizon.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>A similar (and unfortunately more successful) example of perverse
>>>>>>pronunciation is the g in "gynecology", which ought to be pronounced
>>>>>>like j as it is in "androgynous". AHD gives that possibility second.
>>>>>
>>>>> How about polygamy and polygyny?
>>>>
>>>>No problem - follow the rules: [g] for the first; [d?] for the second.
>>>
>>> The rule being?
>>
>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciation_of_Latin>
>>
>>And read the first sentence before you protest! All scientific
>>vocabulary is treated as "borrowed through Latin".
>>
>>More specifically:
>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciation_of_Latin#Palatalization>
>>Palatalization 2
>
> And that nisi prius nuisance, the judicial humorist.

Beware of the nisi-ers!

> How do you pronounce Prius as in Toyota?

Based on "Prion"?

--
ASCII to ASCII, DOS to DOS

[Oliver Cromm]

* Robert Bannister:

That argument is fine for "gyros", but all the other words
discussed weren't borrowed yesterday.

--
*Multitasking* /v./ Screwing up several things at once

[Oliver Cromm]

* Peter T. Daniels:

If they are good at their job, they recognize a wide range of
pronunciations. Which ones are more or less common may change if
moving a few cat's lengths.

--
Smith & Wesson--the original point and click interface

[Peter T. Daniels]

the thing was invented in Chicago, and that's the name recognized by
countermen in Chicago.

[Will Parsons]

On Monday, 28 Sep 2015 11:14 PM -0400, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 29/09/2015 6:07 am, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>
>> One ought. Then again, for g, there is no alternative. So how do
>> you order a "gyros"? I hardly recognized it when my colleague said
>> it just like the first part of "gyroscope" (even dropping the s).
>>
> In South Australia, the places selling them spell it as it is
> pronounced: yiros.

In the NE US I hear both ['dʒairou] (following the spelling "gyro")
and ['ji:rou] (following the Greek pronunciation). I haven't seen the
spelling "yiro(s)", which is somewhat anomalous, since a Modern Greek
"soft" gamma is most usually represented by a Y rather than a G.

It's quite hard to come up with an adequate way of representing Modern
Greek in English. Most people just try to give a representation of
the pronunciation, rather than the spelling.

The pronunciation as ['ji:rou] can cause confusion between a "gyro
sandwich" and a "hero sandwich", which is not the same thing.

--
Will

[Will Parsons]

On Monday, 28 Sep 2015 11:16 PM -0400, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
> And considering the way the Greek alphebet goes, they're all strange:
> alpha, vetta, yamma, delta...>

Surely alfa, veeta, ghama, dhelta...

--
Will

[Will Parsons]

Well, in the light of the well-known reputation German has for
scientific scholarship, I think that makes it clear: one should
pronounce auto[ck]ephalous with a [k] and spell it "autokephalous" to
match. On the other hand, "Enzephalitis" proves, beyond the shadow of
a doubt, that English "encephalitis" should be pronounced with a [s].

--
Will

[Will Parsons]

On Monday, 28 Sep 2015 8:36 PM -0400, Joe Fineman wrote:
> Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid> writes:
>
>> I'm amazed. I *have* heard "cephalopod" pronounced, and it's always
>> with a [s]. And I can't imagine saying "autocephalous" with a [k].
>>
>> (Really, if one feels *compelled* to say these words with a [k], can't
>> one *spell* them with a K?)
>
> That is, indeed, another possibility. One may (tho one seldom does)
> take in a raw Greek word, without pretending it came thru Latin in the
> usual way. For example, in the OED we find kyanite, "variant of
> cyanite, now more usual". "Autarky" is a more familiar example.

A rare example of a (Classical) Greek word adopted into English with
no Latinization whatsoever is "kudos". This could (depending on the
degree of Latinization) have been "cydus", "cydos", or "kydos". (My own
preference would have been "kydos".)

--
Will

[anal...@hotmail.com]

True-blue linguisticians will not stir from their rock-hard position - but here is a refreshing departure:

http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Latin/Grammar/Latin-Pronunciation-Syllable-Accent.html

"Initially c was written to mark a softened [k'] sound before the anterior vowels e and i and the diphthongs ae and oe, while k was written before a, o, stressed u and the consonants and was pronounced in a hard manner. Because the difference between the two consonants was not significant to the speakers and there were not grammatical functions associated with it, it became a common practice to mark both sounds by the letter c."

Just imagine - if one were to believe linguisticians 'matrices' had a [k] - just how idiotic can one get?

[Robert Bannister]

That's not how I've heard "beta". I'll give you the others, though.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 1:11:16 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>> On Monday, September 28, 2015 at 6:07:47 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>>>> * Will Parsons:
>
>>>>> (Really, if one feels *compelled* to say these words with a [k], can't
>>>>> one *spell* them with a K?)
>>>> One ought. Then again, for g, there is no alternative. So how do
>>>> you order a "gyros"? I hardly recognized it when my colleague said
>>>> it just like the first part of "gyroscope" (even dropping the s).
>>> The only one who needs to recognize it is the person taking the order, and
>>> what they recognize is (usually) exactly that.
>>
>> If they are good at their job, they recognize a wide range of
>> pronunciations. Which ones are more or less common may change if
>> moving a few cat's lengths.
>
> the thing was invented in Chicago,

Sure, like pizza originated in New York.

And within a few decades, this Chicago invention spread to faraway
places like Greece, Turkey and Lebanon.

In Montreal, with its large Lebanese population, the most common
name for the dish is "shawarma", in Berlin it would be "Döner
Kebap".

--
... man muss oft schon Wissenschaft infrage stellen bei den Wirt-
schaftsmenschen [...] das Denken wird häufig blockiert von einem
ideologischen Ãœberbau [...] Es ist halt in vielen Teilen eher
eine Religion als eine Wissenschaft. -- Heiner Flassbeck

[Steve Hayes]

On 29 Sep 2015 22:26:28 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>
wrote:

>A rare example of a (Classical) Greek word adopted into English with
>no Latinization whatsoever is "kudos". This could (depending on the
>degree of Latinization) have been "cydus", "cydos", or "kydos". (My own
>preference would have been "kydos".)

Kydos might represent the Greek prounuciation, but "kudos" represents
the commonest English pronunciation -- koo-dos.

[Steve Hayes]

I want to ride my bicycle
I want to ride my bice.
(Queen)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 7:37:28 PM UTC-4, anal...@hotmail.com wrote:

> True-blue linguisticians will not stir from their rock-hard position - but here is a refreshing departure:

From fact.

> http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Latin/Grammar/Latin-Pronunciation-Syllable-Accent.html
>
> "Initially c was written to mark a softened [k'] sound before the anterior vowels e and i and the diphthongs ae and oe, while k was written before a, o, stressed u and the consonants and was pronounced in a hard manner. Because the difference between the two consonants was not significant to the speakers and there were not grammatical functions associated with it, it became a common practice to mark both sounds by the letter c."

Where did that bullshit come from? (Not the url, the source.)

We do not know why Etruscan used the three different letters C K Q before
different vowels. In Latin, /s/ and /k/ were never not distinct phonemes.

> Just imagine - if one were to believe linguisticians 'matrices' had a [k] - just how idiotic can one get?

What's the singular of "matrices"?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 8:22:52 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
>
> > On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 1:11:16 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> >> * Peter T. Daniels:
> >>> On Monday, September 28, 2015 at 6:07:47 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> >>>> * Will Parsons:
> >
> >>>>> (Really, if one feels *compelled* to say these words with a [k], can't
> >>>>> one *spell* them with a K?)
> >>>> One ought. Then again, for g, there is no alternative. So how do
> >>>> you order a "gyros"? I hardly recognized it when my colleague said
> >>>> it just like the first part of "gyroscope" (even dropping the s).
> >>> The only one who needs to recognize it is the person taking the order, and
> >>> what they recognize is (usually) exactly that.
> >>
> >> If they are good at their job, they recognize a wide range of
> >> pronunciations. Which ones are more or less common may change if
> >> moving a few cat's lengths.
> >
> > the thing was invented in Chicago,
>
> Sure, like pizza originated in New York.
>
> And within a few decades, this Chicago invention spread to faraway
> places like Greece, Turkey and Lebanon.
>
> In Montreal, with its large Lebanese population, the most common
> name for the dish is "shawarma", in Berlin it would be "Döner
> Kebap".

Neither the Turkish restaurants around here nor the kebab stand in Mainz
that I got lunch at when I got off the train had a Chicago-style gyros, with
a huge cylinder of pressed meat ROTATING on a vertical spit, in front of a
heat source, from which slices are shaved off.

[Will Parsons]

On Tuesday, 29 Sep 2015 11:09 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On 29 Sep 2015 22:26:28 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>A rare example of a (Classical) Greek word adopted into English with
>>no Latinization whatsoever is "kudos". This could (depending on the
>>degree of Latinization) have been "cydus", "cydos", or "kydos". (My own
>>preference would have been "kydos".)
>

> Kydos might represent the Greek pronunciation, but "kudos" represents

> the commonest English pronunciation -- koo-dos.

"Koo-dos"? I would hope not! I've heard it said [ˈkju:dɒs] (or
similar)*, which is a reasonable representation of a Classical Greek
[ky:dos].

* Actually, more likely to be mispronounced as ['kju:douz], under the
misapprehension that the word is a plural.

--
Will

[Jerry Friedman]

On 9/29/15 9:50 PM, Will Parsons wrote:
> On Tuesday, 29 Sep 2015 11:09 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On 29 Sep 2015 22:26:28 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> A rare example of a (Classical) Greek word adopted into English with
>>> no Latinization whatsoever is "kudos". This could (depending on the
>>> degree of Latinization) have been "cydus", "cydos", or "kydos". (My own
>>> preference would have been "kydos".)
>>
>> Kydos might represent the Greek pronunciation, but "kudos" represents
>> the commonest English pronunciation -- koo-dos.
>
> "Koo-dos"? I would hope not!

Why hope that?

> I've heard it said [ˈkju:dɒs] (or
> similar)*, which is a reasonable representation of a Classical Greek
> [ky:dos].

I think I've mostly heard it as ['kudoUz] (v. infra), but I'd probably
say ['kudAs]. I might have heard it starting with [kju] too.

> * Actually, more likely to be mispronounced as ['kju:douz], under the
> misapprehension that the word is a plural.


--

Jerry Friedman

[Robert Bannister]

On 30/09/2015 8:22 am, Oliver Cromm wrote:

> In Montreal, with its large Lebanese population, the most common
> name for the dish is "shawarma", in Berlin it would be "Döner
> Kebap".
>

Exactly. A yiros is a Greek version of Turkish döner kebap. They rename
every Turkish dish and drink they have, although I think they do use
"boureki" for "börek".

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2015-09-30 00:21:31 +0000, Robert Bannister said:

> On 30/09/2015 6:10 am, Will Parsons wrote:
>> On Monday, 28 Sep 2015 11:16 PM -0400, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>
>>> And considering the way the Greek alphebet goes, they're all strange:
>>> alpha, vetta, yamma, delta...>
>>
>> Surely alfa, veeta, ghama, dhelta...
>>
> That's not how I've heard "beta". I'll give you the others, though.

I've head all of them the way Will says; indeed, I've only heard them
like that. Of course, "ghama" is only a rough representation of a sound
most English speakers find very difficult.

I'm not sure I've come across it in any other language, though maybe
Turkish ğ (g with a breve) is similar.


--
athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2015-09-30 03:50:52 +0000, Will Parsons said:

> On Tuesday, 29 Sep 2015 11:09 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On 29 Sep 2015 22:26:28 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> A rare example of a (Classical) Greek word adopted into English with
>>> no Latinization whatsoever is "kudos". This could (depending on the
>>> degree of Latinization) have been "cydus", "cydos", or "kydos". (My own
>>> preference would have been "kydos".)
>>
>> Kydos might represent the Greek pronunciation, but "kudos" represents
>> the commonest English pronunciation -- koo-dos.
>
> "Koo-dos"? I would hope not! I've heard it said [ˈkju:dɒs] (or
> similar)*,

+1

> which is a reasonable representation of a Classical Greek
> [ky:dos].
>
> * Actually, more likely to be mispronounced as ['kju:douz], under the
> misapprehension that the word is a plural.


--

athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I doubt whether "bike" was invented by people conscious of the
classical roots of "bicycle".


--
athel

[Steve Hayes]

On 30 Sep 2015 03:50:52 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>

wrote:

>On Tuesday, 29 Sep 2015 11:09 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On 29 Sep 2015 22:26:28 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>A rare example of a (Classical) Greek word adopted into English with
>>>no Latinization whatsoever is "kudos". This could (depending on the
>>>degree of Latinization) have been "cydus", "cydos", or "kydos". (My own
>>>preference would have been "kydos".)
>>
>> Kydos might represent the Greek pronunciation, but "kudos" represents
>> the commonest English pronunciation -- koo-dos.
>

>"Koo-dos"? I would hope not! I've heard it said [?kju:d?s] (or

>similar)*, which is a reasonable representation of a Classical Greek
>[ky:dos].

I've only ever heard "koo-dos", though I don't deny that there could
be other pronunciations.

But perhaps that was influenced by "kudu", a species of antelope.

[Steve Hayes]

I likewise doubt that "mic" was invented by people aware of the
classical roots of "microphone".

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On 30 Sep 2015 03:50:52 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>

wrote:

>On Tuesday, 29 Sep 2015 11:09 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On 29 Sep 2015 22:26:28 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>A rare example of a (Classical) Greek word adopted into English with
>>>no Latinization whatsoever is "kudos". This could (depending on the
>>>degree of Latinization) have been "cydus", "cydos", or "kydos". (My own
>>>preference would have been "kydos".)
>>
>> Kydos might represent the Greek pronunciation, but "kudos" represents
>> the commonest English pronunciation -- koo-dos.
>

>"Koo-dos"? I would hope not! I've heard it said [?kju:d?s] (or

>similar)*, which is a reasonable representation of a Classical Greek
>[ky:dos].
>
>* Actually, more likely to be mispronounced as ['kju:douz], under the
> misapprehension that the word is a plural.

Yes, to that last sentence. With the introduction of the plurals
"congrats" and "props" it is likely that people will assume that "kudos"
is plural.

congrats: congratulations.

props: Due respect; approval, compliments, esteem. [OED]

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 2:47:07 AM UTC-4, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 30/09/2015 8:22 am, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>
> > In Montreal, with its large Lebanese population, the most common
> > name for the dish is "shawarma", in Berlin it would be "Döner
> > Kebap".
>
> Exactly. A yiros is a Greek version of Turkish döner kebap. They rename
> every Turkish dish and drink they have, although I think they do use
> "boureki" for "börek".

Do your Turks make it as a large cylinder of pressed meat rotating vertically
in front of the heat source that cooks the outermost layer, from which slices
are shaved off?

With the "Greek yogurt" fad we've been having here, a company (claiming to be
very old) is advertising its FAGE brand, pronouncing it fa-yay.

[Richard Tobin]

In article <dd0f315f-1705-4dce...@googlegroups.com>,

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>Do your Turks make it as a large cylinder of pressed meat rotating vertically
>in front of the heat source that cooks the outermost layer, from which slices
>are shaved off?

In Britain the "pressed meat" often appears (or appeared, back when I
often ate such things) to be some kind of compressed slurry such as
might be technically described as "mechanically recovered meat"
interleaved, if you're lucky, with occasional thin layers of more
natural-looking meat. In Greece it is stacked slices of recognisable
lamb. I did not sample any on my brief visits to Turkey.

>With the "Greek yogurt" fad we've been having here, a company (claiming to be
>very old) is advertising its FAGE brand, pronouncing it fa-yay.

That's a real Greek brand, but whether the American version is in any
way similar is another matter. Presumably it is how the cake in Greek
translations of Alice in Wonderland is labelled.

-- Richard

[Richard Tobin]

In article <kekm0bljehb3muj0f...@4ax.com>,

Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 29 Sep 2015 22:26:28 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>

>Kydos might represent the Greek prounuciation, but "kudos" represents
>the commonest English pronunciation -- koo-dos.

The pronunciation I've usually heard is consistent with the many
computer operating systems of the 1980s that called themselves
"Q-DOS".

-- Richard

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 9:50:03 AM UTC-4, Richard Tobin wrote:
> In article <dd0f315f-1705-4dce...@googlegroups.com>,
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >Do your Turks make it as a large cylinder of pressed meat rotating vertically
> >in front of the heat source that cooks the outermost layer, from which slices
> >are shaved off?
>
> In Britain the "pressed meat" often appears (or appeared, back when I
> often ate such things) to be some kind of compressed slurry such as
> might be technically described as "mechanically recovered meat"
> interleaved, if you're lucky, with occasional thin layers of more
> natural-looking meat. In Greece it is stacked slices of recognisable
> lamb. I did not sample any on my brief visits to Turkey.

Which suggests that the product invented in Chicago really was invented in
Chicago. But you didn't say anything about the vertical spit, the most
distinctive feature of the stuff.

> >With the "Greek yogurt" fad we've been having here, a company (claiming to be
> >very old) is advertising its FAGE brand, pronouncing it fa-yay.

NB not spelled with a Phi and a Gamma

> That's a real Greek brand, but whether the American version is in any
> way similar is another matter. Presumably it is how the cake in Greek
> translations of Alice in Wonderland is labelled.

"Eat Me"?

[Richard Tobin]

In article <a34a381a-f637-4834...@googlegroups.com>,

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>Which suggests that the product invented in Chicago really was invented in
>Chicago. But you didn't say anything about the vertical spit, the most
>distinctive feature of the stuff.

Oh yes, they all have that.

>> >With the "Greek yogurt" fad we've been having here, a company
>(claiming to be
>> >very old) is advertising its FAGE brand, pronouncing it fa-yay.

>NB not spelled with a Phi and a Gamma

When they first started selling it in Britain (25 years ago?) it was.
Now it has purely English labelling.

>> That's a real Greek brand, but whether the American version is in any
>> way similar is another matter. Presumably it is how the cake in Greek
>> translations of Alice in Wonderland is labelled.

>"Eat Me"?

Exactly.

-- Richard

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 07:02:55 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 9:50:03 AM UTC-4, Richard Tobin wrote:
>> In article <dd0f315f-1705-4dce...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Do your Turks make it as a large cylinder of pressed meat rotating vertically
>> >in front of the heat source that cooks the outermost layer, from which slices
>> >are shaved off?
>>
>> In Britain the "pressed meat" often appears (or appeared, back when I
>> often ate such things) to be some kind of compressed slurry such as
>> might be technically described as "mechanically recovered meat"
>> interleaved, if you're lucky, with occasional thin layers of more
>> natural-looking meat. In Greece it is stacked slices of recognisable
>> lamb. I did not sample any on my brief visits to Turkey.
>
>Which suggests that the product invented in Chicago really was invented in
>Chicago. But you didn't say anything about the vertical spit, the most
>distinctive feature of the stuff.

I can't stand this anymore. I've ignored other posts from PTD on
this, but I've reached my limit.

Why an alleged "scholar" refuses to do even the slightest bit of
research before speaking is beyond my ken.

Just a glance at Wiki tells us:

1. The original name comes from Greek word for "turn".

(OK, there's a clue that turning on a spit might be involved)

2. The article tells us "Though grilling meat stacked on a skewer has
ancient roots in the Eastern Mediterranean with evidence from the
Mycenaean Greek and Minoan periods, grilling a vertical spit of
stacked meat slices and cutting it off as it cooks was developed in
the 19th century in Ottoman Bursa."

(While I haven't lived in Chicago for several years, I am willing to
bet that Ottoman Bursa is not a Chicago neighborhood.)

3. Under "Preparation", the article states: "Gyros are cooked on a
vertical broiler, formerly using charcoal in a 'cage', now either gas
or electric. As the cone cooks, lower parts are basted with the juices
running off the upper parts."

(This would surely cast doubts on the premise of gyros being a Chicago
invention based on the availability of a vertical electrically-driven
revolving spit.)

It's not like PTD is someone who has wandered into this newsgroup from
alt.cagefightersRus or some other group populated by mouth-breathers
and illiterates. He claims to be an editor of reference material. An
editor of other people's work who has an aversion to fact-checking
before gum flapping?



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Will Parsons]

On Wednesday, 30 Sep 2015 12:24 AM -0400, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 9/29/15 9:50 PM, Will Parsons wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 29 Sep 2015 11:09 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On 29 Sep 2015 22:26:28 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A rare example of a (Classical) Greek word adopted into English with
>>>> no Latinization whatsoever is "kudos". This could (depending on the
>>>> degree of Latinization) have been "cydus", "cydos", or "kydos". (My own
>>>> preference would have been "kydos".)
>>>
>>> Kydos might represent the Greek pronunciation, but "kudos" represents
>>> the commonest English pronunciation -- koo-dos.
>>
>> "Koo-dos"? I would hope not!
>
> Why hope that?

Because that pronunciation should be reserved for the (hypothetical)
word *koudos instead.

>> I've heard it said [ˈkju:dɒs] (or
>> similar)*, which is a reasonable representation of a Classical Greek
>> [ky:dos].

--
Will

[Will Parsons]

On Wednesday, 30 Sep 2015 4:44 AM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On 30 Sep 2015 03:50:52 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, 29 Sep 2015 11:09 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On 29 Sep 2015 22:26:28 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>A rare example of a (Classical) Greek word adopted into English with
>>>>no Latinization whatsoever is "kudos". This could (depending on the
>>>>degree of Latinization) have been "cydus", "cydos", or "kydos". (My own
>>>>preference would have been "kydos".)
>>>
>>> Kydos might represent the Greek pronunciation, but "kudos" represents
>>> the commonest English pronunciation -- koo-dos.
>>
>>"Koo-dos"? I would hope not! I've heard it said [?kju:d?s] (or
>>similar)*, which is a reasonable representation of a Classical Greek
>>[ky:dos].
>
> I've only ever heard "koo-dos", though I don't deny that there could
> be other pronunciations.
>
> But perhaps that was influenced by "kudu", a species of antelope.

Hmmm... Perhaps so. We have very few kudus around here, so maybe that
explains it.

--
Will

[Peter T. Daniels]

As in "bacteriophage" -- but is there a "me" there?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2015-09-30 15:07:53 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

> [ … ]

> (While I haven't lived in Chicago for several years, I am willing to
> bet that Ottoman Bursa is not a Chicago neighborhood.)

No, it isn't. It's an attractive town in Turkey, a boat-ride across the
Sea of Marmara from Istanbul. I've been there. I don't remember if I
ate Doner kebab; probably not, as there were other items of Turkish
cuisine I liked better.



--
athel

[Richard Tobin]

In article <1b3aa100-0a89-4b42...@googlegroups.com>,

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> >> That's a real Greek brand, but whether the American version is in any
>> >> way similar is another matter. Presumably it is how the cake in Greek
>> >> translations of Alice in Wonderland is labelled.

>> >"Eat Me"?

>> Exactly.

>As in "bacteriophage" -- but is there a "me" there?

No - I'm just assuming it would be inferred.

-- Richard

[Peter T. Daniels]

And the fact that that root does _not_ appear in the Greek names mentioned
earlier raises doubts about whether the conformation is the same in Greece.
I can't speak to the etymology of the Turkish name "doner kebap." The English
shish kebab, however, is < Armenian < Turkish shish 'sword' kebap < Arabic
kebaab 'small chunk of meat', and shish kebab is laid on a grill, not rotated
in front of a fire with reflector.

> 2. The article tells us "Though grilling meat stacked on a skewer has
> ancient roots in the Eastern Mediterranean with evidence from the
> Mycenaean Greek and Minoan periods, grilling a vertical spit of
> stacked meat slices and cutting it off as it cooks was developed in
> the 19th century in Ottoman Bursa."
>
> (While I haven't lived in Chicago for several years, I am willing to
> bet that Ottoman Bursa is not a Chicago neighborhood.)

And you must also have forgotten that gyros meat isn't "stacked" "slices"
skewered onto the spit.

Or maybe it hadn't yet been invented when you were there more than half a
century ago.

> 3. Under "Preparation", the article states: "Gyros are cooked on a
> vertical broiler, formerly using charcoal in a 'cage', now either gas
> or electric. As the cone cooks, lower parts are basted with the juices
> running off the upper parts."
>
> (This would surely cast doubts on the premise of gyros being a Chicago
> invention based on the availability of a vertical electrically-driven
> revolving spit.)

That makes no sense whatsoever. Even in your day, Chicago was fully electrified.

> It's not like PTD is someone who has wandered into this newsgroup from
> alt.cagefightersRus or some other group populated by mouth-breathers
> and illiterates. He claims to be an editor of reference material. An
> editor of other people's work who has an aversion to fact-checking
> before gum flapping?

Who dined at a couple of the Halsted St. restaurants with the posters
proclaiming that gyros was invented on their premises? (They were probably
all owned by the same operation, so the claim might have been true of all
of them by association or transitivity.)

Maybe some day Tony Cooper will learn to read for content instead of for vitriol.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Let's go with the Yiddish "Ess, ess, mein kind!"

[Oliver Cromm]

* Steve Hayes:

> On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:53:11 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>>On 2015-09-30 03:11:06 +0000, Steve Hayes said:
>>
>>> I want to ride my bicycle
>>> I want to ride my bice.
>>> (Queen)
>>
>>I doubt whether "bike" was invented by people conscious of the
>>classical roots of "bicycle".
>
> I likewise doubt that "mic" was invented by people aware of the
> classical roots of "microphone".

"Mic" was invented by people who aren't aware of the rules of
English pronunciation. It should be written "mike".

--
Democracy means government by the uneducated,
while aristocracy means government by the badly educated.
-- G. K. Chesterton

[Oliver Cromm]

It doesn't have to be vertical, but it has to be rotating to be
called "gyros"/"döner (kebab)"/"shawarma", because all these words
mean exactly that. Maybe you managed to find the only kebab in
Mainz that isn't a döner kebab?

--
... man muss oft schon Wissenschaft infrage stellen bei den Wirt-
schaftsmenschen [...] das Denken wird häufig blockiert von einem
ideologischen Ãœberbau [...] Es ist halt in vielen Teilen eher
eine Religion als eine Wissenschaft. -- Heiner Flassbeck

[Oliver Cromm]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 2:47:07 AM UTC-4, Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 30/09/2015 8:22 am, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>>
>>> In Montreal, with its large Lebanese population, the most common
>>> name for the dish is "shawarma", in Berlin it would be "Döner
>>> Kebap".
>>
>> Exactly. A yiros is a Greek version of Turkish döner kebap. They rename
>> every Turkish dish and drink they have, although I think they do use
>> "boureki" for "börek".
>
> Do your Turks make it as a large cylinder of pressed meat rotating vertically
> in front of the heat source that cooks the outermost layer, from which slices
> are shaved off?

The Turks in Germany and the Lebanese in Montreal sure do it this
way.

So your claim is actually just that the machine and/or procedure
was invented in Chicago? That is conceivable. But it is not a
reason to change the name of the product. Pizza is still called
pizza when made in an electric oven made from metal instead of a
wood-fired stone oven, even though it wouldn't be considered
proper pizza in Italy, from what I hear.

> With the "Greek yogurt" fad we've been having here, a company (claiming to be
> very old) is advertising its FAGE brand, pronouncing it fa-yay.

At least they were clever enough not to write it "PHAGE".

The fad is intense, indeed, on our last visit to a US supermarket
I saw ten brands of "Greek" yoghurt and almost none other. I would
be happy to see ten brands of yoghurt at all here in Montreal
(there probably are ten, but not in one store). Although the scene
is slowly changing, our supermarkets are still dominated by
Yoplait and Danone, brands I never touch.

--
Spell checker (n.) One who gives examinations on witchcraft.
Herman Rubin in sci.lang

[Oliver Cromm]

* Will Parsons:

> On Tuesday, 29 Sep 2015 11:09 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On 29 Sep 2015 22:26:28 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>A rare example of a (Classical) Greek word adopted into English with
>>>no Latinization whatsoever is "kudos". This could (depending on the
>>>degree of Latinization) have been "cydus", "cydos", or "kydos". (My own
>>>preference would have been "kydos".)
>>
>> Kydos might represent the Greek pronunciation, but "kudos" represents
>> the commonest English pronunciation -- koo-dos.
>
> "Koo-dos"? I would hope not! I've heard it said [ˈkju:dɒs] (or
> similar)*,

I've only heard koo-. On Forvo, it's 3:2 for kyoo-.

> which is a reasonable representation of a Classical Greek
> [ky:dos].

No, it is not. Unfortunately, English does not possess any sound
that is a reasonable approximation.

> * Actually, more likely to be mispronounced as ['kju:douz], under the
> misapprehension that the word is a plural.

None of the Forvoites did that, fortunately.

I did not even know it is of Greek origin, but I inferred from the
usage I saw that it isn't a plural. I'm also surprised to learn
that the word is attested since 1799, I've only ever seen it on
the Internet and supposed it came up there.

--
Java is kind of like kindergarten. There are lots of rules you
have to remember. If you don't follow them, the compiler makes
you sit in the corner until you do.
Don Raab

[Oliver Cromm]

* Athel Cornish-Bowden:

The way I learned it, ğ is either silent or /j/.

--
Performance: A statement of the speed at which a computer system
works. Or rather, might work under certain circumstances. Or was
rumored to be working over in Jersey about a month ago.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I don't think it should be: bacteria don't "want" to be attacked by
phage. They do all they can to avoid it.



--
athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2015-09-30 17:02:40 +0000, Oliver Cromm said:

> * Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>
>> On 2015-09-30 00:21:31 +0000, Robert Bannister said:
>>
>>> On 30/09/2015 6:10 am, Will Parsons wrote:
>>>> On Monday, 28 Sep 2015 11:16 PM -0400, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>> And considering the way the Greek alphebet goes, they're all strange:
>>>>> alpha, vetta, yamma, delta...>
>>>>
>>>> Surely alfa, veeta, ghama, dhelta...
>>>>
>>> That's not how I've heard "beta". I'll give you the others, though.
>>
>> I've head all of them the way Will says; indeed, I've only heard them
>> like that. Of course, "ghama" is only a rough representation of a sound
>> most English speakers find very difficult.
>>
>> I'm not sure I've come across it in any other language, though maybe
>> Turkish ğ (g with a breve) is similar.
>
> The way I learned it, ğ is either silent or /j/.

OK. Maybe Jack will come in on this, or even Yusuf, but I don't think
he checks in here often.


--
athel

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Wannabe Yiddishist PeteY Daniels wrote:
>
> Let's go with the Yiddish "Ess, ess, mein kind!"
>

Wrong! That's not Yiddish but PeteY-Yiddish, i.e. _drek_.

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~

[Ross]

A point of actual linguistic interest: Wikipedia says that this food
was originally known in Greek as "doner" -- an obvious Turkish borrowing
-- but the word "gyros" (having the same basic meaning "turn") was invented
and supported by linguistic purists.

[David Kleinecke]

dictionary.com says "kudo" has been around since the 1920's.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 11:02:41 AM UTC-6, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> * Steve Hayes:
>
> > On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:53:11 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> > <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> >
> >>On 2015-09-30 03:11:06 +0000, Steve Hayes said:
> >>
> >>> I want to ride my bicycle
> >>> I want to ride my bice.
> >>> (Queen)
> >>
> >>I doubt whether "bike" was invented by people conscious of the
> >>classical roots of "bicycle".
> >
> > I likewise doubt that "mic" was invented by people aware of the
> > classical roots of "microphone".
>
> "Mic" was invented by people who aren't aware of the rules of
> English pronunciation. It should be written "mike".

And still is by some.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 1:02:41 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> * Steve Hayes:
> > On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:53:11 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> > <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> >>On 2015-09-30 03:11:06 +0000, Steve Hayes said:

> >>> I want to ride my bicycle
> >>> I want to ride my bice.
> >>> (Queen)
> >>I doubt whether "bike" was invented by people conscious of the
> >>classical roots of "bicycle".
> > I likewise doubt that "mic" was invented by people aware of the
> > classical roots of "microphone".
>
> "Mic" was invented by people who aren't aware of the rules of
> English pronunciation. It should be written "mike".

It usually is, but the socket on the amp is probably labeled MIC to save the
space taken up by even one extra letter. Of course on my computer I'm
supposed to be able to peer into the dark cavern and try to see whether
the plastic trim is blue or green, so as to plug the mike and the external
speakers into the right jacks.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Ya it does, see the note about basting: if it's horizontal, the juices
will just fall off (and make a mess, too).

> but it has to be rotating to be
> called "gyros"/"döner (kebab)"/"shawarma", because all these words
> mean exactly that. Maybe you managed to find the only kebab in
> Mainz that isn't a döner kebab?

It was little kebabs (see Arabic definition above) just like on a shish
kebab, folded inside a pita. Like meat felafel.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 1:02:42 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:

> * Peter T. Daniels:
>
> > On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 2:47:07 AM UTC-4, Robert Bannister wrote:
> >> On 30/09/2015 8:22 am, Oliver Cromm wrote:
> >>
> >>> In Montreal, with its large Lebanese population, the most common
> >>> name for the dish is "shawarma", in Berlin it would be "Döner
> >>> Kebap".
> >>
> >> Exactly. A yiros is a Greek version of Turkish döner kebap. They rename
> >> every Turkish dish and drink they have, although I think they do use
> >> "boureki" for "börek".
> >
> > Do your Turks make it as a large cylinder of pressed meat rotating vertically
> > in front of the heat source that cooks the outermost layer, from which slices
> > are shaved off?
>
> The Turks in Germany and the Lebanese in Montreal sure do it this
> way.
>
> So your claim is actually just that the machine and/or procedure
> was invented in Chicago? That is conceivable. But it is not a
> reason to change the name of the product.

It was claimed (albeit by Tony Cooper, making the claim highly unreliable)
that Over There it's "stacked" "slices" of meat, which gyros definitely
isn't.

> Pizza is still called
> pizza when made in an electric oven made from metal instead of a
> wood-fired stone oven, even though it wouldn't be considered
> proper pizza in Italy, from what I hear.

They don't make proper pizza in Italy. Apparently they drop some stuff onto
round crackers and call it pizza. They also don't make proper pizza in
Chicago. They make something pizza-like that's quite good, alled "deep-dish
pizza," but pizza it isn't.

> > With the "Greek yogurt" fad we've been having here, a company (claiming to be
> > very old) is advertising its FAGE brand, pronouncing it fa-yay.
>
> At least they were clever enough not to write it "PHAGE".
>
> The fad is intense, indeed, on our last visit to a US supermarket
> I saw ten brands of "Greek" yoghurt and almost none other. I would
> be happy to see ten brands of yoghurt at all here in Montreal
> (there probably are ten, but not in one store). Although the scene
> is slowly changing, our supermarkets are still dominated by
> Yoplait and Danone, brands I never touch.

Yoplait is far too sweet. When I was introduced to Dannon yogurt, in 9th
grade, by Cheryl Ann Sullivan (but you can find my account in the archive),
it was nothing like the sweet goop they sell now.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 1:02:42 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:

> * Will Parsons:
> > On Tuesday, 29 Sep 2015 11:09 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
> >> On 29 Sep 2015 22:26:28 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>
> >> wrote:

> >>>A rare example of a (Classical) Greek word adopted into English with
> >>>no Latinization whatsoever is "kudos". This could (depending on the
> >>>degree of Latinization) have been "cydus", "cydos", or "kydos". (My own
> >>>preference would have been "kydos".)
> >> Kydos might represent the Greek pronunciation, but "kudos" represents
> >> the commonest English pronunciation -- koo-dos.
> > "Koo-dos"? I would hope not! I've heard it said [ˈkju:dɒs] (or
> > similar)*,
>
> I've only heard koo-. On Forvo, it's 3:2 for kyoo-.

Brits (whether on the BBC or not) insist on "PYOOtin" for Putin.

> > which is a reasonable representation of a Classical Greek
> > [ky:dos].
>
> No, it is not. Unfortunately, English does not possess any sound
> that is a reasonable approximation.

Furrin [y] comes into English as [u].

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:47:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

The present gyro stock is simply a different way to stack meat, and
one developed to use smaller-than-slices bits of meat. One could
expect some variations since the Mycenaean Greek and Minoan periods.

The present gyro is meat that has been stacked and then pressed. In
Chicago, and elsewhere probably, the meat is then displayed for days -
possibly weeks - in a restaurant window and heated and further cooked
by infrared lamps.

>Or maybe it hadn't yet been invented when you were there more than half a
>century ago.

I lived there more than a quarter of a century ago - much less than a
half - but have been there much more recently.

>> 3. Under "Preparation", the article states: "Gyros are cooked on a
>> vertical broiler, formerly using charcoal in a 'cage', now either gas
>> or electric. As the cone cooks, lower parts are basted with the juices
>> running off the upper parts."
>>
>> (This would surely cast doubts on the premise of gyros being a Chicago
>> invention based on the availability of a vertical electrically-driven
>> revolving spit.)
>
>That makes no sense whatsoever. Even in your day, Chicago was fully electrified.
>
>> It's not like PTD is someone who has wandered into this newsgroup from
>> alt.cagefightersRus or some other group populated by mouth-breathers
>> and illiterates. He claims to be an editor of reference material. An
>> editor of other people's work who has an aversion to fact-checking
>> before gum flapping?
>
>Who dined at a couple of the Halsted St. restaurants with the posters
>proclaiming that gyros was invented on their premises? (They were probably
>all owned by the same operation, so the claim might have been true of all
>of them by association or transitivity.)

Oh, so your research sources are posters in restaurants claiming that
the product was invented in the restaurants. I didn't realize your
sources were quite that authentic and authoritative.

If the restaurant poster had claimed that they innovated the use of
tzatziki sauce, they might have a claim. I couldn't disprove it,
anyway, since I find no source stating where tzatziki sauce was first
paired with a gyro.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 1:48:14 PM UTC-4, Reinhold {Ignorant Misspeller} Aman failed in an attempt to write:

> Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > Let's go with the Yiddish "Ess, ess, mein kind!"
>
> Wrong! That's not Yiddish but PeteY-Yiddish, i.e. _drek_.

Antisemite wannabe Yiddishist insists there's only one legitimate transliteration
of Yiddish. But never reveals which of the many world standards it thinks
should be followed.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 13:03:35 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 1:02:42 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>
>> > On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 2:47:07 AM UTC-4, Robert Bannister wrote:
>> >> On 30/09/2015 8:22 am, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> In Montreal, with its large Lebanese population, the most common
>> >>> name for the dish is "shawarma", in Berlin it would be "Döner
>> >>> Kebap".
>> >>
>> >> Exactly. A yiros is a Greek version of Turkish döner kebap. They rename
>> >> every Turkish dish and drink they have, although I think they do use
>> >> "boureki" for "börek".
>> >
>> > Do your Turks make it as a large cylinder of pressed meat rotating vertically
>> > in front of the heat source that cooks the outermost layer, from which slices
>> > are shaved off?
>>
>> The Turks in Germany and the Lebanese in Montreal sure do it this
>> way.
>>
>> So your claim is actually just that the machine and/or procedure
>> was invented in Chicago? That is conceivable. But it is not a
>> reason to change the name of the product.
>
>It was claimed (albeit by Tony Cooper, making the claim highly unreliable)
>that Over There it's "stacked" "slices" of meat, which gyros definitely
>isn't.

No, dear heart, the claim was: "The article tells us 'Though grilling

meat stacked on a skewer has ancient roots in the Eastern
Mediterranean with evidence from the Mycenaean Greek and Minoan
periods, grilling a vertical spit of stacked meat slices and cutting
it off as it cooks was developed in the 19th century in Ottoman

Bursa.'." It refers to the history of the process, not the current
practice.

That is called using a source for reference, not one's own views
unsupported by anything outside of the proverbial distance of a swung
cat's arc. I know that's an alien concept to you, but some do do
this.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 1:02:42 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>
>> Pizza is still called
>> pizza when made in an electric oven made from metal instead of a
>> wood-fired stone oven, even though it wouldn't be considered
>> proper pizza in Italy, from what I hear.
>
> They don't make proper pizza in Italy. Apparently they drop some stuff onto
> round crackers and call it pizza. They also don't make proper pizza in
> Chicago. They make something pizza-like that's quite good, alled "deep-dish
> pizza," but pizza it isn't.

Well, if we had needed any more proof of your parochialism.

>> [...] Although the scene

>> is slowly changing, our supermarkets are still dominated by
>> Yoplait and Danone, brands I never touch.
>
> Yoplait is far too sweet. When I was introduced to Dannon yogurt, in 9th
> grade, by Cheryl Ann Sullivan (but you can find my account in the archive),
> it was nothing like the sweet goop they sell now.

I hate the mouthfeel of both Yoplait and Danone products because
it's dominated by stabilizers (carrageenan, gelatine etc.) Yes,
"goop" is a good word for it. I prefer products that don't have a
great need for those - which includes "Greek", "Balkan" or
"Caucasus" style yoghurts, but also some others.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Lewis:

> In message <1bygo03i...@mid.crommatograph.info>

> Oliver Cromm <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> * Steve Hayes:
>
>>> On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:53:11 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2015-09-30 03:11:06 +0000, Steve Hayes said:
>>>>
>>>>> I want to ride my bicycle
>>>>> I want to ride my bice.
>>>>> (Queen)
>>>>
>>>>I doubt whether "bike" was invented by people conscious of the
>>>>classical roots of "bicycle".
>>>
>>> I likewise doubt that "mic" was invented by people aware of the
>>> classical roots of "microphone".
>
>> "Mic" was invented by people who aren't aware of the rules of
>> English pronunciation. It should be written "mike".
>

> No it shouldn't. Why would you think that?

Well, if it's just a shortened written version, and pronounced
"microphone", I have no issue. But in practice, people point to
the written "mic" and say /maIk/, and that creates mental
diplopia.

--
ASCII to ASCII, DOS to DOS

[Oliver Cromm]

* Richard Tobin:

> In article <kekm0bljehb3muj0f...@4ax.com>,

> Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On 29 Sep 2015 22:26:28 GMT, Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid>
>

>>Kydos might represent the Greek prounuciation, but "kudos" represents

>>the commonest English pronunciation -- koo-dos.
>

> The pronunciation I've usually heard is consistent with the many
> computer operating systems of the 1980s that called themselves
> "Q-DOS".

I'd have thought any pronunciation of "kudos" was consistent with
any operating system. Even though I'm on Windows here, I can still
write "door" if I want to.

--
Pentiums melt in your PC, not in your hand.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Tony Cooper:

> On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 13:03:35 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 1:02:42 PM UTC-4, Oliver Cromm wrote:
>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>>

>>> > Do your Turks make it as a large cylinder of pressed meat rotating vertically
>>> > in front of the heat source that cooks the outermost layer, from which slices
>>> > are shaved off?
>>>
>>> The Turks in Germany and the Lebanese in Montreal sure do it this
>>> way.
>>>
>>> So your claim is actually just that the machine and/or procedure
>>> was invented in Chicago? That is conceivable. But it is not a
>>> reason to change the name of the product.
>>
>>It was claimed (albeit by Tony Cooper, making the claim highly unreliable)
>>that Over There it's "stacked" "slices" of meat, which gyros definitely
>>isn't.
>
> No, dear heart, the claim was: "The article tells us 'Though grilling
> meat stacked on a skewer has ancient roots in the Eastern
> Mediterranean with evidence from the Mycenaean Greek and Minoan
> periods, grilling a vertical spit of stacked meat slices and cutting
> it off as it cooks was developed in the 19th century in Ottoman
> Bursa.'." It refers to the history of the process, not the current
> practice.
>
> That is called using a source for reference, not one's own views
> unsupported by anything outside of the proverbial distance of a swung
> cat's arc. I know that's an alien concept to you, but some do do
> this.

But you are quoting Wikipedia, which is not a reliable source.

Ad flyers of a Chicago fast food chain in the 1970s, of which no
record is available, now that's what I call proof!

--
If the aeroplane industry had advanced at the same rate as the
computer industry, today's planes could circumnavigate the world
in ten seconds, be two inches long, and crash twice a day.
Peter Moylan in alt.usage.english

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Unethical text-falsifying Yidl PeteY Daniels wrote:
>
> Reinhold {Ignorant Misspeller} Aman failed in an attempt to write:
>>

>> Wannabe Yiddishist PeteY Daniels wrote:

{PeteY-falsified text corrected}

>>>
>>> Let's go with the Yiddish "Ess, ess, mein kind!"
>>>
>> Wrong! That's not Yiddish but PeteY-Yiddish, i.e. _drek_.
>
> Antisemite wannabe Yiddishist
>

Once again, PeteY stole my words ("wannabe Yiddishist").

>
> insists there's only one legitimate transliteration of Yiddish.
>

Wrong!

>
> But never reveals which of the many world standards it thinks
> should be followed.
>

*No* legitimate *scholarly* transliteration system for Yiddish uses
"ess" and "mein."