Punctuating abbreviations that are becoming de facto words
Richard Bollard
materials. The term "eg." was used with that solitary full stop. Some
say that it needs two as in "e.g." while others argue that it can do
its job with none: "eg".
The unpunctuated "eg" looks cleaner and I don't think there is any
ambiguity, so what I'm asking is: do people feel that the expression
has evolved into a word now instead of an abbreviation and the time
has come for us to drop the fussy punctuation?
The same question holds for "ie" / "i.e.".
I tend to the view that punctuation is there to do a job and if it
isn't needed, get rid of it. Spelling is another thing and, while it
can change, the process is normally slower.
Comments?
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Skitt
It's "e.g." and "i.e.", that's all there is to that. You're proofing, eh?
--
Skitt (AmE)
Lars Eighner
lovely and talented Richard Bollard broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> I have just been proofing an order form for books and related
> materials. The term "eg." was used with that solitary full stop. Some
> say that it needs two as in "e.g." while others argue that it can do
> its job with none: "eg".
Two.
> The same question holds for "ie" / "i.e.".
> Comments?
Many scholarly publications now discourage these and other abbreviations
from Latin.
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> September 5928, 1993
307 days since Rick Warren prayed over Bush's third term.
Obama: No hope, no change, more of the same. Yes, he can, but no, he won't.
Richard Bollard
wrote:
I corrected it to that (for now) but it got me wondering. Will the
periods disappear, can they disappear, can it happen now if we want
to?
In other words, how locked in is punctuation.
Piet de Arcilla
> It's "e.g." and "i.e.", that's all there is to that. You're proofing, eh?
I think you mean e.h.
Stan Brown
<rich...@spamt.edu.au>:
>
> I have just been proofing an order form for books and related
> materials. The term "eg." was used with that solitary full stop. Some
> say that it needs two as in "e.g." while others argue that it can do
> its job with none: "eg".
>
> The unpunctuated "eg" looks cleaner and I don't think there is any
> ambiguity, so what I'm asking is: do people feel that the expression
> has evolved into a word now
As soon as you pronounce it "egg" -- seriously, not in jest -- you
can drop the periods. Until then it needs both of them.
Or you could write in English and say "for example", thus avoiding
the whole issue.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...
D. Stussy
news:dd19635f-5599-4a9e...@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 23, 8:41 pm, "Skitt" <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
> It's "e.g." and "i.e.", that's all there is to that. You're proofing, eh?
I think you mean e.h.
=========
Wrong.
E.g. and i.e. are each two words, so each word needs a period for the
abbreviation.
Eh by itself is a word, not an abbreviation.
Arcadian Rises
Regardless of our comments, the orthography will evolve - probably-
the "incorrect" way to accommodate speed.
I already abbreviate "USA", "NY", not to mention the well-known
acronyms (does anyone abbreviate "N.A.T.O." or N.A.F.T.A.? too many
dots).
If "etc", why not "eg" or "ie"?
Don Aitken
The period-less version of these expressions has been common and
accepted in BrE (though not in AmE) for a good few years now; some
style-guides insist on it. But it has to be two or none; definitely
not one.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Richard Bollard
<use...@larseighner.com> wrote:
>In our last episode, <fa9mg51efls0l73au...@4ax.com>, the
>lovely and talented Richard Bollard broadcast on alt.usage.english:
>
>> I have just been proofing an order form for books and related
>> materials. The term "eg." was used with that solitary full stop. Some
>> say that it needs two as in "e.g." while others argue that it can do
>> its job with none: "eg".
>
>Two.
>
>> The same question holds for "ie" / "i.e.".
>
>> Comments?
>
>Many scholarly publications now discourage these and other abbreviations
>from Latin.
Probably a good rule but they are obligingly short. The description in
the thing I was editing did not want "for example", for example. So I
think there may be some point where they become English words derived
from Latin.
Richard Bollard
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:21:23 +1100 from Richard Bollard
><rich...@spamt.edu.au>:
>>
>> I have just been proofing an order form for books and related
>> materials. The term "eg." was used with that solitary full stop. Some
>> say that it needs two as in "e.g." while others argue that it can do
>> its job with none: "eg".
>>
>> The unpunctuated "eg" looks cleaner and I don't think there is any
>> ambiguity, so what I'm asking is: do people feel that the expression
>> has evolved into a word now
>
>As soon as you pronounce it "egg" -- seriously, not in jest -- you
>can drop the periods. Until then it needs both of them.
Okay but many people pronounce it "e g" without any knowledge of the
original Latin words or substituting the English "for example". The
pronunciation may change or evolve into one syllable but this is
another matter.
>
>Or you could write in English and say "for example", thus avoiding
>the whole issue.
You could but the shorter form has merits.
Richard Bollard
<Arcadi...@aol.com> wrote:
Indeed but they are different in that etc is not an initialism, FWIW.
Piet de Arcilla
wrote:
> "Piet de Arcilla" <dearci...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:dd19635f-5599-4a9e...@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 23, 8:41 pm, "Skitt" <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > It's "e.g." and "i.e.", that's all there is to that. You're proofing, eh?
>
> I think you mean e.h.
>
> =========
> Wrong.
>
> E.g. and i.e. are each two words, so each word needs a period for the
> abbreviation.
>
> Eh by itself is a word, not an abbreviation.
Actually, "e.h." is an abbreviation for the latin phrase "exspectat
hesito". It means "I look for [approval] uncertainly", which is why
it's used after questions. Thought everyone knew that.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>I have just been proofing an order form for books and related
>materials. The term "eg." was used with that solitary full stop. Some
>say that it needs two as in "e.g." while others argue that it can do
>its job with none: "eg".
>
>The unpunctuated "eg" looks cleaner and I don't think there is any
>ambiguity, so what I'm asking is: do people feel that the expression
>has evolved into a word now instead of an abbreviation and the time
>has come for us to drop the fussy punctuation?
>
>The same question holds for "ie" / "i.e.".
>
>I tend to the view that punctuation is there to do a job and if it
>isn't needed, get rid of it. Spelling is another thing and, while it
>can change, the process is normally slower.
We dropped it in our house style over 20 years ago, and now punctuated
abbreviations look strange to me. Also dropped it for degrees - BA, BSc, PhD
etc.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Steve Hayes
<Arcadi...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Nov 23, 7:21?pm, Richard Bollard <richa...@spamt.edu.au> wrote:
>I already abbreviate "USA", "NY", not to mention the well-known
>acronyms (does anyone abbreviate "N.A.T.O." or N.A.F.T.A.? too many
>dots).
>
>If "etc", why not "eg" or "ie"?
With acronyms we use small letters, keeping capitals for abbreviations
pronounced by letter, eg BBC not B.B.C., Nato and Swapo, not N.A.T.O. and
S.W.A.P.O.
That was our house style, but I think it's based on Chicago.
Peter Moylan
> In our last episode, <fa9mg51efls0l73au...@4ax.com>,
> the lovely and talented Richard Bollard broadcast on
> alt.usage.english:
>
>> I have just been proofing an order form for books and related
>> materials. The term "eg." was used with that solitary full stop.
>> Some say that it needs two as in "e.g." while others argue that it
>> can do its job with none: "eg".
>
> Two.
>
>> The same question holds for "ie" / "i.e.".
>
>> Comments?
>
> Many scholarly publications now discourage these and other
> abbreviations from Latin.
>
authors to be as brief as possible, or even briefer than possible.
The popular press is another matter. Knowledge of Latin words is
steadily declining, and I suspect that the majority of English speakers
would be unable to say, without looking it up, what "i.e." and "e.g."
stand for. I've certainly met people who don't know which of them means
"for example" and which doesn't.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Peter Moylan
> Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:21:23 +1100 from Richard Bollard
> <rich...@spamt.edu.au>:
>> I have just been proofing an order form for books and related
>> materials. The term "eg." was used with that solitary full stop.
>> Some say that it needs two as in "e.g." while others argue that it
>> can do its job with none: "eg".
>>
>> The unpunctuated "eg" looks cleaner and I don't think there is any
>> ambiguity, so what I'm asking is: do people feel that the
>> expression has evolved into a word now
>
> As soon as you pronounce it "egg" -- seriously, not in jest -- you
> can drop the periods. Until then it needs both of them.
We have already, as a language community, agreed to drop the periods
from many other things that used to have them. By now it would look
exceedingly strange to see periods reinserted into things like "UNHCR"
and "Mr".
Garrett Wollman
Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp@retep> wrote:
>We have already, as a language community, agreed to drop the periods
>from many other things that used to have them. By now it would look
>exceedingly strange to see periods reinserted into things like "UNHCR"
>and "Mr".
"Mr" is also incorrect, to the majority of English L1s (i.e., those
who grew up in the United States). "UNHCR" would be incorrect in /The
New York Times/ or /The New Yorker/ but is widely accepted elsewhere.
(I don't know what the AP suggests; the agency is not a major topic in
the U.S. press.)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
R H Draney
>
>On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:21:23 +1100, Richard Bollard <rich...@spamt.edu.au>
>wrote:
>
>>I have just been proofing an order form for books and related
>>materials. The term "eg." was used with that solitary full stop. Some
>>say that it needs two as in "e.g." while others argue that it can do
>>its job with none: "eg".
>>
>>The unpunctuated "eg" looks cleaner and I don't think there is any
>>ambiguity, so what I'm asking is: do people feel that the expression
>>has evolved into a word now instead of an abbreviation and the time
>>has come for us to drop the fussy punctuation?
>>
>>The same question holds for "ie" / "i.e.".
>>
>>I tend to the view that punctuation is there to do a job and if it
>>isn't needed, get rid of it. Spelling is another thing and, while it
>>can change, the process is normally slower.
>
>We dropped it in our house style over 20 years ago, and now punctuated
>abbreviations look strange to me. Also dropped it for degrees - BA, BSc, PhD
>etc.
Also for "etc"?...
There's a Taiwanese pop group called "S.H.E", from the initials of the English
names of its three members: Selina, Hebe and Ella...while the fact that the name
spells the English word "she" provides some indication that this is a girl
group, the punctuation is usually included in literature and product-labeling
contexts...one quirk that has from time to time attracted my attention is that
the final period is usually omitted....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Mike Barnes
>We have already, as a language community, agreed to drop the periods
>from many other things that used to have them.
I don't see much sign of agreement.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Mike Barnes
>Knowledge of Latin words is
>steadily declining, and I suspect that the majority of English speakers
>would be unable to say, without looking it up, what "i.e." and "e.g."
>stand for.
It's enough to know what they mean. There's no need to know what they
stand for, except perhaps as an aide-memoire.
Mike Barnes
>It's "e.g." and "i.e.", that's all there is to that.
In the USA, maybe. Not everywhere.
Mike Lyle
Quite so. But Peter points out that the buggers often _don't_ know what
they mean. I think it's usually best to use the English expressions, and
in full. How do I square that with my acceptance of "etc."? Hmm...I
think it's acquired a slightly different force from "and other things",
so perhaps I think of it as a (rather odd) English word in its own
right.
And I'm not campaigning for the exclusion of all foreign expressions and
abbreviations: "a.m." and "p.m.", for example, are well enough
entrenched as honorary English "words" to make "b.n." and "a.n." a silly
idea.
--
Mike.
Bertel Lund Hansen
> Quite so. But Peter points out that the buggers often _don't_ know what
> they mean. I think it's usually best to use the English expressions, and
> in full.
I agree with that. In Danish I usually avoid abreviations except
a couple that are really familiar, much like "etc." in English.
There is one writer - there are hundreds of readers.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Don Phillipson
news:fa9mg51efls0l73au...@4ax.com...
> I have just been proofing an order form for books and related
> materials. The term "eg." was used with that solitary full stop. Some
> say that it needs two as in "e.g." while others argue that it can do
> its job with none: "eg".
>
> The unpunctuated "eg" looks cleaner and I don't think there is any
> ambiguity, so what I'm asking is: do people feel that the expression
> has evolved into a word now instead of an abbreviation and the time
> has come for us to drop the fussy punctuation?
You need not hesitate. . . .
1. These topics of punctuation have already been arbitrated in
style books, as published by the Univ. of Chicago Press, some
newspapers, some governments, etc. If your client follows any
particular style book, proofreading should conform to that.
2. If your client uses no style book and otherwise offers no
guidance, you are free to punctuate any way you like: you
need not provide reasons for your method.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> [ ... ]
>>> The same question holds for "ie" / "i.e.".
>>
>>> Comments?
>>
>> Many scholarly publications now discourage these and other abbreviations
>> from Latin.
>
> Probably a good rule but they are obligingly short. The description in
> the thing I was editing did not want "for example", for example. So I
> think there may be some point where they become English words derived
> from Latin.
Now that hardly anyone learns Latin in English-speaking schools I think
that is rather unlikely. Given the number of people who use "e.g." for
"i.e." and vice versa (not to mention "viz.") I suspect that there are
fewer and fewer people who know that these are Latin and know what they
stand for. If "e.g." ever becomes a word it will need to be spelled
differently, e.g. as "eegee".
Someone upthread wrote "Okay" where I'd have written "OK", and this is
a case where one could argue that it is perceived as a word in its own
right, but it's different from "e.g." because O.K. was never a real
abbreviation in the first place, and there's lots of dispute over what,
if anything, it ever stood for.
--
athel
James Silverton
>> [ ... ]
I wonder how many people, even those who learned some Latin in school,
could accurately supply the Latin that e.g. represents?
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Chuck Riggs
For clarity's sake, I see no harm in spelling them out, "in other
words" and "for example", leaving to historians what i.e. and e.g.
stood for in Latin.
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
Chuck Riggs
<Arcadi...@aol.com> wrote:
To my knowledge, the acronyms are always spelled NATO and NAFTA. I've
never seen "N.A.T.O".
CDB
> "D. Stussy" wrote:
>> "Piet de Arcilla" <dearci...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 23, 8:41 pm, "Skitt" <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> It's "e.g." and "i.e.", that's all there is to that. You're
>>> proofing, eh?
>>
>> I think you mean e.h.
>>
>> =========
>> Wrong.
>>
>> E.g. and i.e. are each two words, so each word needs a period for
>> the
>> abbreviation.
>>
>> Eh by itself is a word, not an abbreviation.
>
> Actually, "e.h." is an abbreviation for the latin phrase "exspectat
> hesito". It means "I look for [approval] uncertainly", which is why
> it's used after questions. Thought everyone knew that.
>
Mark Brader
> The unpunctuated "eg" looks cleaner and I don't think there is any
> ambiguity, so what I'm asking is: do people feel that the expression
> has evolved into a word now instead of an abbreviation and the time
> has come for us to drop the fussy punctuation?
No, and I object to the term "fussy" here.
--
Mark Brader "'A matter of opinion'[?] I have to say you are
Toronto right. There['s] your opinion, which is wrong,
m...@vex.net and mine, which is right." -- Gene Ward Smith
Peter Moylan
> I wonder how many people, even those who learned some Latin in school,
> could accurately supply the Latin that e.g. represents?
Not many, perhaps, but at least we know that it doesn't stand for "id est".
I'm talking about the aue readers, of course. Half of the Great Unwashed
think that "i.e." means "for example".
Peter Moylan
> Mike Barnes wrote:
>> Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp@retep.?.invalid>:
>>> Knowledge of Latin words is
>>> steadily declining, and I suspect that the majority of English
>>> speakers would be unable to say, without looking it up, what "i.e."
>>> and "e.g." stand for.
>> It's enough to know what they mean. There's no need to know what they
>> stand for, except perhaps as an aide-memoire.
>
> Quite so. But Peter points out that the buggers often _don't_ know what
> they mean. I think it's usually best to use the English expressions, and
> in full. How do I square that with my acceptance of "etc."?
The difference is that "etc." no longer stands for the Latin "et
cetera". It now stands for the English word "etcetera", which is well
understood even by those English speakers who think that "Latin" means
"Mediterranean".
Steve Hayes
>Steve Hayes filted:
>>We dropped it in our house style over 20 years ago, and now punctuated
>>abbreviations look strange to me. Also dropped it for degrees - BA, BSc, PhD
>>etc.
>
>Also for "etc"?...
Are you referring to "& C"?
>There's a Taiwanese pop group called "S.H.E", from the initials of the English
>names of its three members: Selina, Hebe and Ella...while the fact that the name
>spells the English word "she" provides some indication that this is a girl
>group, the punctuation is usually included in literature and product-labeling
>contexts...one quirk that has from time to time attracted my attention is that
>the final period is usually omitted....r
And then there was ABBA
R H Draney
>
>On 23 Nov 2009 23:42:25 -0800, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>>There's a Taiwanese pop group called "S.H.E", from the initials of the English
>>names of its three members: Selina, Hebe and Ella...while the fact that the name
>>spells the English word "she" provides some indication that this is a girl
>>group, the punctuation is usually included in literature and product-labeling
>>contexts...one quirk that has from time to time attracted my attention is that
>>the final period is usually omitted....r
>
>And then there was ABBA
Who never *did* use punctuation in their name....
(One of the strangest consequences of alphabetical order is that the first two
artists on my CD shelf are ABBA and AC/DC)....r
Mike Barnes
>(One of the strangest consequences of alphabetical order is that the first two
>artists on my CD shelf are ABBA and AC/DC)....r
What's strange?
I have two CD shelves, both virtual. The popular shelf starts with ABBA
and Aimee Mann; the classical one with Andreas Scholl and Bach, JC.
James Hogg
Aaron Copland beats them all.
--
James
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
ABBA's trademarked name has the first B reversed. Where would that put
the name in an alphabetical list?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
James Hogg
I don't think they've got that far with Unicode yet.
--
James
Stan Brown
<rich...@spamt.edu.au>:
> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 02:23:08 +0000 (UTC), Lars Eighner
> <use...@larseighner.com> wrote:
>
> > [quoted text muted]
> >> Comments?
> >
> >Many scholarly publications now discourage these and other abbreviations
> >from Latin.
>
> Probably a good rule but they are obligingly short.
It's a good rule because there's a significant probability that the
writer doesn't know which is which, and a certainty that some readers
won't.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...
Stan Brown
<gro.nalyomp@retep>:
> We have already, as a language community, agreed to drop the periods
> from many other things that used to have them. By now it would look
> exceedingly strange to see periods reinserted into things like "UNHCR"
> and "Mr".
What do you mean "we"? I'm aware that BrE often drops the period
after Mr., but in AmE it is an error to do so.
Peter Moylan
Near the end, possibly. The back-to-front R in Toys-Ya-Us is right at
the end of the Russian alphabet.
Bertel Lund Hansen
> ABBA's trademarked name has the first B reversed. Where would that put
> the name in an alphabetical list?
Somewhere in Siberia?
--
Bertel, Denmark
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>James Silverton wrote:
>
>> I wonder how many people, even those who learned some Latin in school,
>> could accurately supply the Latin that e.g. represents?
>
>Not many, perhaps, but at least we know that it doesn't stand for "id est".
>
>I'm talking about the aue readers, of course. Half of the Great Unwashed
>think that "i.e." means "for example".
Since I only know, or care, what i.e. and e.g. mean in English, I
suppose I'm one of the Great Half-washed.
Chuck Riggs
In the proverbial musical shitcan, where ABBA belongs.
John Varela
wrote:
> The difference is that "etc." no longer stands for the Latin "et
> cetera". It now stands for the English word "etcetera", which is well
> understood even by those English speakers who think that "Latin" means
> "Mediterranean".
The dictionary supports you. It even cites a plural: etceteras.
Talk about your unneeded words...
--
John Varela
Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email
Mike Barnes
I don't think of it as a competition, but on my virtual shelf, Copland
comes between Chopin and Couperin.
R H Draney
>
>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:24:37 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
><ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:30:42 +0100, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Mike Barnes wrote:
>>>> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net>:
>>>>>(One of the strangest consequences of alphabetical order is that the first two
>>>>> artists on my CD shelf are ABBA and AC/DC)....r
>>>>
>>>> What's strange?
>>>>
>>>> I have two CD shelves, both virtual. The popular shelf starts with ABBA
>>>> and Aimee Mann; the classical one with Andreas Scholl and Bach, JC.
>>>
>>>Aaron Copland beats them all.
Why Bach by surname but Mann and Scholl by given name?...(I had enough trouble
trying to figure out whether to invert "Meat Loaf")....
>>ABBA's trademarked name has the first B reversed. Where would that put
>>the name in an alphabetical list?
>
>In the proverbial musical shitcan, where ABBA belongs.
You haven't lived until you've heard "Waterloo" done as heavy metal....r
James Hogg
So you not only have different virtual shelves for the two types of
music but also different ways of alphabetising names.
--
James
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
>(I had enough trouble
>trying to figure out whether to invert "Meat Loaf")
If you invert him you get "Lee Marvin".
Mike Barnes
Only one method of alphabetising: by the name that the person or group
is normally known by.
Mike Barnes
>Chuck Riggs filted:
>>
>>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:24:37 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
>><ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:30:42 +0100, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Mike Barnes wrote:
>>>>> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net>:
>>>>>>(One of the strangest consequences of alphabetical order is that
>>>>>>the first two
>>>>>> artists on my CD shelf are ABBA and AC/DC)....r
>>>>>
>>>>> What's strange?
>>>>>
>>>>> I have two CD shelves, both virtual. The popular shelf starts with ABBA
>>>>> and Aimee Mann; the classical one with Andreas Scholl and Bach, JC.
>>>>
>>>>Aaron Copland beats them all.
>
>Why Bach by surname but Mann and Scholl by given name?
I use the names that I and most people know them by. Bach is normally
known as Bach. Aimee Mann and Andreas Scholl are known as Aimee Mann and
Andreas Scholl, not Mann and Scholl.
In effect: Composers by last name, possibly followed by first name(s) or
initial(s) for disambiguation. Performers by stage name, disregarding
any "The" prefix when sorting.
>...(I had enough trouble
>trying to figure out whether to invert "Meat Loaf")....
The only way that makes sense to me is: Don't even *consider* inverting
a performer's name.
(Fortunately all my Prince is outside the TAPKAP era.)
Ian Jackson
<don-a...@freeuk.com> writes
>On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:24:25 +1100, Richard Bollard
><rich...@spamt.edu.au> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:41:13 -0800, "Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Richard Bollard wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have just been proofing an order form for books and related
>>>> materials. The term "eg." was used with that solitary full stop. Some
>>>> say that it needs two as in "e.g." while others argue that it can do
>>>> its job with none: "eg".
>>>>
>>>> ambiguity, so what I'm asking is: do people feel that the expression
>>>> has evolved into a word now instead of an abbreviation and the time
>>>> has come for us to drop the fussy punctuation?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I tend to the view that punctuation is there to do a job and if it
>>>> isn't needed, get rid of it. Spelling is another thing and, while it
>>>> can change, the process is normally slower.
>>>>
>>>> Comments?
>>>
>>
>>periods disappear, can they disappear, can it happen now if we want
>>to?
>>
>>In other words, how locked in is punctuation.
>>
>>
>The period-less version of these expressions has been common and
>accepted in BrE (though not in AmE) for a good few years now; some
>style-guides insist on it. But it has to be two or none; definitely
>not one.
>
I know of at least one British technical monthly publication which had a
mandatory writers' style guide. Essentially, the aim was to cut out
unnecessary punctuation and capitalisation, provided that there was no
ambiguity. Among the rules were that things like 'ie' and 'eg' had no
periods. Abbreviations (which were not proper names, like BBC), were
written as 'tv' and 'swr' (lower case, no periods). Of course, things
like 'i.f.' (intermediate frequency') did have periods, for obvious
reasons. I still generally adhere to the period rule, and few seem to
object.
--
Ian
R H Draney
So, McGuinn under J or R?...
Too many performers are referred to in conversation by surname for that to work
consistently: Springsteen, Dylan, Sinatra...there's something to be said for
keeping Jakob near Bob, Nancy near Frank...one would also like to justify
keeping (surnameless) Jeordie near Melanie for the same reason, but I can't seem
to work out a scheme that succeeds there....
>(Fortunately all my Prince is outside the TAPKAP era.)
Where's your Bj�rk?...
My most recent problem is whether certain artists should be alphabetized as Xu
or Hsu...their own preferences seem to differ....r
James Hogg
I know a couple who have their CDs displayed in a wall unit consisting
of diagonal compartments, neatly grouped according to the colour of the
spine. It gives an artistic effect.
--
James
Jerry Friedman
> R H Draney wrote:
> > Mike Barnes filted:
> >>> Chuck Riggs filted:
> >>>> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:24:37 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
> >>>> <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:30:42 +0100, James Hogg
> >>>>> <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> Mike Barnes wrote:
Same place as my ABBA, AC/DC, Aimee Mann, Andreas Scholl, J. C. Bach,
Roger McGuinn, Bruce Springsteen, Jakob Dylan, Frank Sinatra, Nancy
Sinatra, Jeordie, Melanie, and people named Hsu or Xu.
I do have some Bob Dylan, though. I think.
> > My most recent problem is whether certain artists should be
> > alphabetized as Xu or Hsu...their own preferences seem to differ....r
>
> I know a couple who have their CDs displayed in a wall unit consisting
> of diagonal compartments, neatly grouped according to the colour of the
> spine. It gives an artistic effect.
One of my classmates in grad school arranged his physics books that
way (in a floor unit consisting of the battleship-gray steel bookcase
supplied by the university). He said he remembered books by color,
not by title or author. He also liked the looks on people's faces
when they saw it.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mike Barnes
>Mike Barnes filted:
>>The only way that makes sense to me is: Don't even *consider* inverting
>>a performer's name.
>
>So, McGuinn under J or R?...
I'd need an album to be sure, but I would think R.
>Too many performers are referred to in conversation by surname for that to work
>consistently: Springsteen, Dylan, Sinatra...there's something to be said for
>keeping Jakob near Bob, Nancy near Frank...one would also like to justify
>keeping (surnameless) Jeordie near Melanie for the same reason, but I
>can't seem
>to work out a scheme that succeeds there....
You're inventing problems that I don't have. I read the name on the
cover and file it under that.
As far as related artists are concerned, my virtual CD shelf has cross-
references. As it happens I don't have any Nancy Sinatra solo material,
but the Frank Sinatra page and the Nancy & Frank Sinatra pages are
cross-linked. If you're really interested you can see my somewhat
limited collection of their music for yourself here:
http://thedowerhouse.com/jukebox/demo.html
Search on Sinatra then click on either of the hits to see the cross-
reference to the other one. For a more extensive set of cross-
references, do the same with Clapton.
>>(Fortunately all my Prince is outside the TAPKAP era.)
>
>Where's your Bj�rk?...
If I had any it would be between Bing Crosby and Black.
>My most recent problem is whether certain artists should be alphabetized as Xu
>or Hsu...their own preferences seem to differ....r
I don't concern myself with the artists' preferences.
Richard Bollard
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:37:02 +1100 from Peter Moylan
><gro.nalyomp@retep>:
>
>> We have already, as a language community, agreed to drop the periods
>> from many other things that used to have them. By now it would look
>> exceedingly strange to see periods reinserted into things like "UNHCR"
>> and "Mr".
>
>What do you mean "we"? I'm aware that BrE often drops the period
>after Mr., but in AmE it is an error to do so.
I have seen style guides that give the rule that the missing-letters
period is not required where the finishing letter is the same as for
the spelled-out word. So they would say that "Mr." is wrong (and
doesn't it look awful when a comma comes straight after).
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Richard Bollard
>Richard Bollard:
>> The unpunctuated "eg" looks cleaner and I don't think there is any
>> ambiguity, so what I'm asking is: do people feel that the expression
>> has evolved into a word now instead of an abbreviation and the time
>> has come for us to drop the fussy punctuation?
>
>No, and I object to the term "fussy" here.
Should I have used scare quotes?
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
[...]
> I have seen style guides that give the rule that the missing-letters
> period is not required where the finishing letter is the same as for
> the spelled-out word. So they would say that "Mr." is wrong (and
> doesn't it look awful when a comma comes straight after).
Golden Oldie:
How do you know she is pregnant?
--- Because last month she Mr.
--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
Mark Brader
>>> ...to drop the fussy punctuation?
Mark Brader:
>> ...I object to the term "fussy" here.
Richard Bollard:
> Should I have used scare quotes?
You should do what you think is right, Luke.
--
Mark Brader "I always hoped that when someone quoted me
Toronto it would be because I said something profound."
m...@vex.net -- Chris Volpe
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Mike Barnes
>How do you know she is pregnant?
>--- Because last month she Mr.
Someone (sorry, I forget who) was asking recently for examples of
wordplay that doesn't survive the Atlantic crossing.
There's an example.
Chuck Riggs
<mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>Reinhold {Rey} Aman <am...@sonic.net>:
>>How do you know she is pregnant?
>>--- Because last month she Mr.
>
>Someone (sorry, I forget who) was asking recently for examples of
>wordplay that doesn't survive the Atlantic crossing.
>
>There's an example.
No it isn't. Think "missed her..."
James Hogg
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:58:28 +0000, Mike Barnes
> <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>
>> Reinhold {Rey} Aman <am...@sonic.net>:
>>> How do you know she is pregnant?
>>> --- Because last month she Mr.
>> Someone (sorry, I forget who) was asking recently for examples of
>> wordplay that doesn't survive the Atlantic crossing.
>>
>> There's an example.
>
> No it isn't. Think "missed her..."
But Brits tend to think "missed her full stop".
--
James
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>Chuck Riggs filted:
>>
>>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:24:37 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
>><ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:30:42 +0100, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Mike Barnes wrote:
>>>>> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net>:
>>>>>>(One of the strangest consequences of alphabetical order is that the first two
>>>>>> artists on my CD shelf are ABBA and AC/DC)....r
>>>>>
>>>>> What's strange?
>>>>>
>>>>> I have two CD shelves, both virtual. The popular shelf starts with ABBA
>>>>> and Aimee Mann; the classical one with Andreas Scholl and Bach, JC.
>>>>
>>>>Aaron Copland beats them all.
>
>Why Bach by surname but Mann and Scholl by given name?...(I had enough trouble
>trying to figure out whether to invert "Meat Loaf")....
I dropped having a strict alphabetizing system for my CDs years ago,
for it required too much juggling when I bought a new disc. Instead,
they are physically grouped by artist or composer, whichever was more
important to me when I bought the disc, roughly in alphabetic order.
To find a piece a music I first consult my index book where I've
listed everything in numerical order, one, two and three being at the
end of small folder one, twenty-eight, twenty-nine and thirty at its
beginning and thirty-one at the end of large folder two to higher
numbers at the beginning; when I hit software discs I had to stop.
After I buy many more discs I will have to buy a second CD folder, for
around fifty discs are still in their jeweled cases, most of these
being boxed collections: all of Beethoven's string quartets, all of
Bruckner's symphonies and all of Mahler's.
Robert Bannister
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:58:28 +0000, Mike Barnes
> <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>
>> Reinhold {Rey} Aman <am...@sonic.net>:
>>> How do you know she is pregnant?
>>> --- Because last month she Mr.
>> Someone (sorry, I forget who) was asking recently for examples of
>> wordplay that doesn't survive the Atlantic crossing.
>>
>> There's an example.
>
> No it isn't. Think "missed her..."
I thought that and still couldn't see a joke. I see James does explain
it, but who would have thought of that?
--
Rob Bannister
Jerry Friedman
> Chuck Riggs wrote:
> > On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:58:28 +0000, Mike Barnes
>
> >> Reinhold {Rey} Aman <a...@sonic.net>:
> >>> How do you know she is pregnant?
> >>> --- Because last month she Mr.
> >> Someone (sorry, I forget who) was asking recently for examples of
> >> wordplay that doesn't survive the Atlantic crossing.
>
> >> There's an example.
>
> > No it isn't. Think "missed her..."
>
> I thought that and still couldn't see a joke. I see James does explain
> it, but who would have thought of that?
Lots of Americans.
--
Jerry Friedman
Frank ess
Punctuate:
Fun Fun Fun Worry Worry Worry
Fun. Fun. Fun Worry, worry, worry.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
That I missed her depressed her young sister named Esther
This mister to pester she tried
Now a pestering sister's a festering blister
you'd best to resist her say I
The mister resisted, the sister persisted
I kissed her, all loyalty slipped
When I said I would have her her sister's cadaver
Must surely have turned in its crypt.
(Tom Lehrer's Variations on the theme of Clementine)
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>Chuck Riggs wrote:
As often as we've talked about it, every AUE regular knows the AmE
term for full stop, or they should.
Chuck Riggs
Stan Brown
<chr...@eircom.net>:
> my CDs ... are physically grouped by artist or composer
Physically? Are they spiritually grouped in a different way?
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...
Nick
> Reinhold {Rey} Aman <am...@sonic.net>:
>>How do you know she is pregnant?
>>--- Because last month she Mr.
>
> Someone (sorry, I forget who) was asking recently for examples of
> wordplay that doesn't survive the Atlantic crossing.
>
> There's an example.
Of course, it's because of people from the other side of the Atlantic
that history came to a.
--
Online waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk
development version: http://canalplan.eu
Amethyst Deceiver
wrote:
>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:20:50 +0100, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Chuck Riggs wrote:
>>> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:58:28 +0000, Mike Barnes
>>> <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Reinhold {Rey} Aman <am...@sonic.net>:
>>>>> How do you know she is pregnant?
>>>>> --- Because last month she Mr.
>>>> Someone (sorry, I forget who) was asking recently for examples of
>>>> wordplay that doesn't survive the Atlantic crossing.
>>>>
>>>> There's an example.
>>>
>>> No it isn't. Think "missed her..."
>>
>>But Brits tend to think "missed her full stop".
>
>As often as we've talked about it, every AUE regular knows the AmE
>term for full stop, or they should.
But not everyone this side of the Atlantic reads aue. If I showed that
joke to most of my friends they'd either not get the joke, or have to
think for a while to work it out. As Mike said, that's a pun that
doesn't cross the Atlantic well.
Amethyst Deceiver
People, that is, who tend to be on your side of the Atlantic. The pun
doesn't cross the water well.
Chuck Riggs
Puns you have to work out are the best kind. Since they exercise the
little grey cells, you surely can't object to them.
Chuck Riggs
Puzzles that are easy are no fun.
Chuck Riggs
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 16:35:11 +0000 from Chuck Riggs
><chr...@eircom.net>:
>> my CDs ... are physically grouped by artist or composer
>
>Physically? Are they spiritually grouped in a different way?
Here's a clue about how this newsgroup works. When you delete what
someone has written, insert <snip> to replace what you have deleted.
That information is in AUE's FAQ, which I'm sure you haven't read.
Stan Brown
address.org.uk>:
> Of course, it's because of people from the other side of the Atlantic
> that history came to a.
I remember I first read that in /1066 and All That/ and completely
failed to get the joke. I think it was only after reading Fowler a
few years later that I understood.
Stan Brown
>
> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:55:31 -0500, Stan Brown
> <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> >Thu, 26 Nov 2009 16:35:11 +0000 from Chuck Riggs
> ><chr...@eircom.net>:
> >> my CDs ... are physically grouped by artist or composer
> >
> >Physically? Are they spiritually grouped in a different way?
>
> Here's a clue about how this newsgroup works. When you delete what
> someone has written, insert <snip> to replace what you have deleted.
> That information is in AUE's FAQ, which I'm sure you haven't read.
Classy -- don't respond to the actual point, but raise an
irrelevancy.
Nick
> Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:54:22 +0000 from Nick <3-nospam@temporary-
> address.org.uk>:
>
>> Of course, it's because of people from the other side of the Atlantic
>> that history came to a.
>
> I remember I first read that in /1066 and All That/ and completely
> failed to get the joke. I think it was only after reading Fowler a
> few years later that I understood.
That is indeed where it comes from. And, of course, you are making
precisely my point in the reverse direction.
Robert Bannister
Jokes that have to be explained, that have to be translated or that take
more than 30 seconds to work out are simply not funny. They may be
clever, but not funny.
--
Rob Bannister
Jerry Friedman
wrote:
Yes, precisely. Implying that no one could get the joke, or saying
the joke isn't funny as Rob did in another post, is just as wrong as
saying any a.u.e.-er should be able to enjoy it, as Chuck did.
Funniness is in the funnybone of the beholder.
--
Jerry Friedman
Chuck Riggs
Yes, thirty seconds ought to be the limit.
Chuck Riggs
I simply wrote "As often as we've talked about it, every AUE regular
knows the AmE term for full stop, or they should." I never said
everyone would enjoy the humour of the pun in question. That would be
a silly thing to say.
>Funniness is in the funnybone of the beholder.
Of course.
Chuck Riggs
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 15:09:07 +0000 from Chuck Riggs
><chr...@eircom.net>:
>>
>> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:55:31 -0500, Stan Brown
>> <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>> >Thu, 26 Nov 2009 16:35:11 +0000 from Chuck Riggs
>> ><chr...@eircom.net>:
>> >> my CDs ... are physically grouped by artist or composer
>> >
>> >Physically? Are they spiritually grouped in a different way?
>>
>> Here's a clue about how this newsgroup works. When you delete what
>> someone has written, insert <snip> to replace what you have deleted.
>> That information is in AUE's FAQ, which I'm sure you haven't read.
>
>Classy -- don't respond to the actual point, but raise an
>irrelevancy.
It is not irrelevant to many regulars, my son.
James Hogg
> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> writes:
>
>> Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:54:22 +0000 from Nick <3-nospam@temporary-
>> address.org.uk>:
>>
>>> Of course, it's because of people from the other side of the
>>> Atlantic that history came to a.
>> I remember I first read that in /1066 and All That/ and completely
>> failed to get the joke. I think it was only after reading Fowler
>> a few years later that I understood.
>
> That is indeed where it comes from. And, of course, you are making
> precisely my point in the reverse direction.
Visual puns like this work like a rebus. The general � is that both the
punster and the receiver must use the same word for the non-verbal sign.
If they don't, there's a risk that the receiver will not get the.
Now I must go to the fire and put some:
--
James
Mike Barnes
>Now I must go to the fire and put some:
Don't -
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Mark Brader
>> Now I must go to the fire and put some:
> Don't -
If I said I was going to, would you?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | I still remember the first time his reality check
m...@vex.net | bounced. -- Darlene Richards
James Hogg
> James Hogg:
>>> Now I must go to the fire and put some:
>
> Mike Barnes:
>> Don't -
>
> If I said I was going to, would you?
You mustn't [ us all in the same class, even though we both have �
--
James
R H Draney
Mary has a bicycle.
She rides it fast and brisk.
Mary is a little fool,
Her little *
....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Mike Barnes
>Now I must go to the fire and put some:
Presumably dug up by -
Robert Bannister
And of course those work because we are now sensitised to the names of
punctuation marks.
--
Rob Bannister
Andreas Waldenburger
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> James Hogg wrote:
> [snip]
> > Now I must go to the fire and put some:
> >
>
> And of course those work because we are now sensitised to the names
> of punctuation marks.
>
Anyone care for a punctuation mark limerick?
, ` & #
$ @ | + . -
8 7 6 5 4
" * _
? ; ! AS;DOFB2
Translation after the spoilerspace.
<spoilerspace>
</spoilerspace>
(Comma tick ampersand hash,
Dollar at pipe plus dot dash.
Eight sev'n six five four,
Quote star underscore,
Question mark semi-colon bang MASH.)
--
INVALID? DE!