There is no word for it in English
OGATA Toshiyuki
dictionary's lines where showed what was noodles. It read "a long thin strip
of pasta, used especially in Chinese and Italian cooking." Then I realized I
knew there were thousands of noodle dishes in the southeast asian countries,
but I didn't know any such countries in the rest of the world except Italy.
I suspect there is no original noodle dish in the bread-eating culture
countries and presume there is no word for it in English.
Regards.
OGATA Toshiyuki
Kurashiki,JAPAN
AWILLIS957
>From: "OGATA Toshiyuki"
>Then I realized I
>knew there were thousands of noodle dishes in the southeast asian countries,
>but I didn't know any such countries in the rest of the world except Italy.
>I suspect there is no original noodle dish in the bread-eating culture
>countries and presume there is no word for it in English.
I think you are correct. I read once that noodles came to Italy via Marco Polo
and turned into spaghetti, but I am not sure if that's right.
Peasemarch.
Raymond S. Wise
news:20030430214355...@mb-m15.aol.com...
It appears to be a myth. See
http://www.professionalpasta.it/dir_9/1_whoinv.htm
http://www.professionalpasta.it/dir_9/c_cron_2_2.htm
I presume the original poster intended when he said "I suspect there is no
original noodle dish in the bread-eating culture countries," to refer to
dishes in which noodles are a main ingredient and which did not originate in
Asia. If so, then there are indeed examples of such "original noodle
dishes": There's chicken noodle soup, alphabet soup, noodles Romanoff,
chicken and noodles, tuna-noodle casserole. You could, of course, make
macaroni and cheese with noodles instead of macaroni (and see below).
There's nothing special about noodles: They're a starchy food that can be
used in place of other starchy foods. You could put noodles in any soup or
stew, for example.
Furthermore, what some people think of as "pasta," others think of as
"noodles," so that you can find references to "lasagna noodles," "spaghetti
noodles," and "macaroni noodles." This would make some pasta dishes, such as
lasagna, "noodle dishes."
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
CyberCypher
news:b8psig$ohe$1...@news531.nifty.com:
How about tuna noodle casserole? My first wife and I used to eat that
frequently when we were first married. Very cheap and easy to make.
Evan Kirshenbaum
There are lots of noodle dishes that are neither Italian nor Asian.
Macaroni and cheese. Macaroni salad (a staple in Hawaii). (Noodle)
kugel. Noodle Roni (a packaged side dish, now marketed as Pasta
Roni), inspired by Italy, but with some distinctly non-Italian
flavors.
Note that I didn't say that these are as *good* as most Italian or
Asian noodle dishes (although I'd put a good kugel up against most),
but they are there.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Whatever it is that the government
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |does, sensible Americans would prefer
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |that the government do it to somebody
|else.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke
(650)857-7572
GK
> news:b8psig$ohe$1...@news531.nifty.com:
>
>
>>Do you have any noodle dishies in your country? Once I came across
>>at my dictionary's lines where showed what was noodles. It read "a
>>long thin strip of pasta, used especially in Chinese and Italian
>>cooking." Then I realized I knew there were thousands of noodle
>>dishes in the southeast asian countries, but I didn't know any
>>such countries in the rest of the world except Italy. I suspect
>>there is no original noodle dish in the bread-eating culture
>>countries and presume there is no word for it in English.
I have absolutely no official clue, but with as much "Kraft
Macaroni and Cheese" as there is on American grocery store
shelves, I have to believe it aint oriental.
Greg K
R H Draney
>
>There are lots of noodle dishes that are neither Italian nor Asian.
>Macaroni and cheese. Macaroni salad (a staple in Hawaii). (Noodle)
>kugel. Noodle Roni (a packaged side dish, now marketed as Pasta
>Roni), inspired by Italy, but with some distinctly non-Italian
>flavors.
>
>Note that I didn't say that these are as *good* as most Italian or
>Asian noodle dishes (although I'd put a good kugel up against most),
>but they are there.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that spätzle isn't really an
English dish....
Oddly, I once noticed (trying to explain shu-mai to someone) the
near-universality of "stuffed dough" items in every culture advanced enough to
have put up restaurants: the Italians have ravioli, the Japanese gyoza, the
central Europeans kreplach (plural of crępe, no?), the Russians pelmeni....r
Laura F Spira
>
> "OGATA Toshiyuki" <Ogata-T...@nifty.com> writes:
>
> > Do you have any noodle dishies in your country? Once I came across
> > at my dictionary's lines where showed what was noodles. It read "a
> > long thin strip of pasta, used especially in Chinese and Italian
> > cooking." Then I realized I knew there were thousands of noodle
> > dishes in the southeast asian countries, but I didn't know any such
> > countries in the rest of the world except Italy. I suspect there is
> > no original noodle dish in the bread-eating culture countries and
> > presume there is no word for it in English.
>
> There are lots of noodle dishes that are neither Italian nor Asian.
> Macaroni and cheese. Macaroni salad (a staple in Hawaii). (Noodle)
> kugel. Noodle Roni (a packaged side dish, now marketed as Pasta
> Roni), inspired by Italy, but with some distinctly non-Italian
> flavors.
>
> Note that I didn't say that these are as *good* as most Italian or
> Asian noodle dishes (although I'd put a good kugel up against most),
> but they are there.
>
Yes! Let's hear it for kugel!
Who invented lokshen? My grandmother made her own and her ancestors had
no Italian or Asian connections.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Richard Price
> >
> >
> >>Do you have any noodle dishies in your country? Once I came across
> >>at my dictionary's lines where showed what was noodles. It read "a
> >>long thin strip of pasta, used especially in Chinese and Italian
> >>cooking." Then I realized I knew there were thousands of noodle
> >>dishes in the southeast asian countries, but I didn't know any
> >>such countries in the rest of the world except Italy. I suspect
> >>there is no original noodle dish in the bread-eating culture
> >>countries and presume there is no word for it in English.
Austro-Hungarian cooking uses a type of noodle, often small and not
string-like, but made of flour and water. They're sometimes called dumplings
in cookery books but they're not an awful lot different from some types of
pasta or gnocchi.
Rich.
Charles Riggs
>I have to believe it aint oriental.
That should be "ain't", Greg. To be a full member here you must get
the picky details right. Otherwise, Donna, Skitt, or I will clobber
you.
--
Charles Riggs
OGATA Toshiyuki
"OGATA Toshiyuki" <Ogata-T...@nifty.com> wrote in message
news:b8psig$ohe$1...@news531.nifty.com...
> Do you have any noodle dishies in your country...
Thank you for your replies. I'm afraid my obscure thread confused you. I
have to make it clear that my point is noodle itself.
They Japanese have various noodles, they call "men" for all kind of noodles,
made from buckwheat, wheat, rice and so on, and various methods making those
tings in to noodles. Of course, most of those noodles are of Chinese origin.
I guess spaghetti, lasagne, vermicelli, macaroni, ravioli and canneloni are
all types of pasta, and are Italian in origin. Therefore, those names of
noodles are loanwords. Am I correct?
My question is do you have any unique noodle though they anciently
introduced your region or country. What do you call such noodles and what
does it look like. What dose it make from.
Regards.
OGATA Toshiyuki
Kurashiki,JAPAN
Wayne Brown
news:b8psig$ohe$1...@news531.nifty.com...
Noodle dishes in Europe and on other continents where Europeans migrated
came originally from China. For example, even in ancient times Russians
enjoyed a soup with noodles they call 'lapsha..' Slavists tell us that the
word comes from the Tatar language. The Tatars, who dominated ancient Russia
for several centuries, are believed to have learned how to make 'lapsha'
from Chinese traders. The same holds true for one of the Russian national
dishes, 'pel'meni,' a dumpling with various fillings. To this very day,
Russians say that 'pel'meni' came from Siberia. It was in Siberia that
Chinese traders passed on the method of making 'pel'meni' 'and visitors to
China today can still recognize the origin when they eat one of China's
famous foods, 'jiaozi.' But no one knows the incredible influence of ancient
China better than the Japanese.
Regards, ----- WB.
Autumn Dove
>
> Oddly, I once noticed (trying to explain shu-mai to someone) the
> near-universality of "stuffed dough" items in every culture advanced enough to
> have put up restaurants: the Italians have ravioli, the Japanese gyoza, the
> central Europeans kreplach (plural of crępe, no?), the Russians pelmeni....r
Turkey has börek.
R H Draney
Autum...@londonwitch.zzn.com says...
Now I'm having STS, Cat Stevens variety....r
R F
> Noodle dishes in Europe and on other continents where Europeans migrated
> came originally from China.
Not true of Italy and Greece, at least.
Mark Browne
<Autum...@londonwitch.zzn.com> writes
In the form "burek", so does Yugoslavia (yes, I know it does not exist
under that name, but it is very difficult to change the habits of so
many years.)
--
Mark Browne
If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the
"From" address will be rejected
Raymond S. Wise
news:b8qvps$pb5$01$1...@news.t-online.com...
I have my doubts about the general statement that "Noodle dishes in Europe
and on other continents where Europeans migrated came originally from
China." The Web site I mentioned earlier
http://www.professionalpasta.it/dir_9/1_whoinv.htm
points out that "Etruscan archaeological findings, mainly in Cerveteri (near
to Rome), display stucco relieves of several tools used for home
pasta-making." (That "relieves" should be "reliefs.")
Another history of pasta, at
http://www.inmamaskitchen.com/FOOD_IS_ART/pasta/historypasta.html
says that the Roman (and presumably the earlier Etruscan) pasta was roasted
on stones or in ovens rather than boiled, and says that "The first certain
record of noodles cooked by boiling is in the Jerusalem Talmud, written in
Aramaic in the 5th century AD."
R F
> Oddly, I once noticed (trying to explain shu-mai to someone) the
> near-universality of "stuffed dough" items in every culture advanced enough to
> have put up restaurants: the Italians have ravioli, the Japanese gyoza, the
> central Europeans kreplach (plural of crêpe, no?), the Russians pelmeni....r
But Chicago seems to be the only culture that has some sort of
ab*minati*n called "stuffed pizza". No, I'm not gonna try it.
Oliver Cromm
> Oddly, I once noticed (trying to explain shu-mai to someone) the
> near-universality of "stuffed dough" items in every culture
> advanced enough to have put up restaurants: the Italians have
> ravioli, the Japanese gyoza, the central Europeans kreplach
> (plural of crępe, no?), the Russians pelmeni....r
German Maultaschen ("gefüllte Nudeln", filled noodles, in my
grandma's dialect). I once had an Afghan variety, which was like
very big gyoza - I mean, Chinese jiao-ze, it's still considered
Chinese cuisine in Japan!.
--
Oliver Cromm
The best sign for intelligent life in space is
that they're not visiting us
Oliver Cromm
> But Chicago seems to be the only culture that has some sort of
> ab*minati*n called "stuffed pizza". No, I'm not gonna try it.
You're sure that it's not calzone?
GK
Greg K
Oliver Cromm
> My question is do you have
> any unique noodle though they anciently introduced your region or
> country. What do you call such noodles and what does it look like.
> What dose it make from.
Spätzle are a specialty of Southern Germany, and are reasonably
different from Italian noodles. They contain a lot of eggs, and are
poured into the boiling water as a very soft dough. It is not clear if
they are historically related to Italian noodles or not.
<http://www.aaltonet.com/spaetzle/spaetzle.html>
The same regions also have "Schupfnudeln", which are made primarily
from potatoes (which means that they cannot be very old). These are
normally fried after boiling. I read that one used to stuff geese with
them.
<http://www.recipehound.com/Recipes/0675.html>
I think these two are reasonably different from Asian and Italian
noodles.
R H Draney
says...
>
>On 30 Apr 2003, R H Draney wrote:
>
>> Oddly, I once noticed (trying to explain shu-mai to someone) the
>gh to
>> have put up restaurants: the Italians have ravioli, the Japanese gyoza, t=
>he
>> central Europeans kreplach (plural of cr=EApe, no?), the Russians pelmeni=
>=2E...r
>
>But Chicago seems to be the only culture that has some sort of
>ab*minati*n called "stuffed pizza". No, I'm not gonna try it.
It doesn't seem qualitatively different from what's called "calzone"...slightly
different packaging, perhaps, but essentially the same thing....
(Whose newsreader settings are responsible for "cr=EApe" above?...displaying
your quotation of my original the circumflex is still in place)....r
R F
> >But Chicago seems to be the only culture that has some sort of
> >ab*minati*n called "stuffed pizza". No, I'm not gonna try it.
>
> It doesn't seem qualitatively different from what's called "calzone"...slightly
> different packaging, perhaps, but essentially the same thing....
Hmm... just judging from the pictures, it seems qualitatively
completely different from what I know of calzones, but then pictures of
Chicago pizza depict something qualitatively different from what I know
of pizza. Oh well.
R F
> Quoth R F:
>
> > But Chicago seems to be the only culture that has some sort of
> > ab*minati*n called "stuffed pizza". No, I'm not gonna try it.
>
> You're sure that it's not calzone?
Oh yes, I'm quite sure of it.
Another weird thing about Chicago is that all the barbers seem to be
native speakers. WIUWT? I may have to fly to New York to get a
haircut.
OGATA Toshiyuki
Thank you for your replies. I'm afraid my obscure thread confused you. I
have to make it clear that my point is noodle itself.
They Japanese have various noodles, they call "men" for all kind of noodles,
made from buckwheat, wheat, rice and so on, and various methods making those
tings in to noodles. Of course, most of those noodles are of Chinese origin.
I guess spaghetti, lasagne, vermicelli, macaroni, ravioli and canneloni are
all types of pasta, and are Italian in origin. Therefore, those names of
noodles are loanwords. Am I correct?
My question is do you have any unique noodle though they anciently
introduced your region or country. What do you call such noodles and what
does it look like. What dose it make from.
Regards.
OGATA Toshiyuki
Kurashiki,JAPAN
Robert Bannister
> In message <9588a94.03050...@posting.google.com>, Autumn Dove
> <Autum...@londonwitch.zzn.com> writes
>
>> R H Draney <dado...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:<b8qa2...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>>
>>>
>>> Oddly, I once noticed (trying to explain shu-mai to someone) the
>>> near-universality of "stuffed dough" items in every culture advanced
>>> enough to
>>> have put up restaurants: the Italians have ravioli, the Japanese
>>> gyoza, the
>>> central Europeans kreplach (plural of crępe, no?), the Russians
>>> pelmeni....r
>>
>>
>>
>> Turkey has börek.
>
>
> In the form "burek", so does Yugoslavia (yes, I know it does not exist
> under that name, but it is very difficult to change the habits of so
> many years.)
'Burek' seems rather different from the other items. The burek I know is
stuffed pastry.
--
Rob Bannister
Tony Cooper
wrote:
I've not seen one, but are you sure that's not an offering by a
particular pizza chain and not a style likened with Chicago? Someone
- Pizza Hut, maybe - offers a "stuffed crust pizza". I would not link
something offered by a chain to a particular town's specialty.
--
Tony Cooper aka: tony_co...@yahoo.com
Provider of Jots, Tittles, and Oy!s
Dr. Jai Maharaj
thousands of years old in Bharatiya (that is, Indian)
cuisine. It is used on a special ice cream dish known
as kulfee (pronounce the u as the u in put).
Jai Maharaj, who coined the term "Munglish"
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
In article <b8psig$ohe$1...@news531.nifty.com>,
"OGATA Toshiyuki" <Ogata-T...@nifty.com> posted:
> Do you have any noodle dishies in your country? Once I came across at my
Carmen L. Abruzzi
use...@mantra.com wrote on 5/2/03 12:46 AM:
> Phaloodaa, made with wheat starch and cornstarch is
> thousands of years old in Bharatiya (that is, Indian)
You ought to whip up a fresh batch soon!
> cuisine. It is used on a special ice cream dish known
> as kulfee (pronounce the u as the u in put).
What, to scour the dish for cleaning? Thousand year old noodles must be
pretty hard, I guess.
>
Mark Browne
<rob...@it.net.au> writes
You are right, it is - I was thinking of "dough" far too loosely.
R F
It's not an offering by one particular chain; "stuffed pizza" is
offered by a large number of Chicago establishments, and seems to be
closely associated with Chicago.
I'm eager to try a place called "Cafe [sic] Luigi" in Lincoln Park,
which reportedly prepares authentic-tasting New York pizza of decent
quality, at least wrt Neapolitan pizza. I understand that they make
Sicilian pizza too, but, bowing to Chicago prejudices, they make it
round instead of square. C**p, do you know that place?
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>I'm eager to try a place called "Cafe [sic] Luigi" in Lincoln Park,
>which reportedly prepares authentic-tasting New York pizza of decent
>quality, at least wrt Neapolitan pizza. I understand that they make
>Sicilian pizza too, but, bowing to Chicago prejudices, they make it
>round instead of square. C**p, do you know that place?
I know Lincoln Park, of course, but not Cafe Luigi. I don't think I'd
try a restaurant with Sic in the name.
I think it is foolish for a New Yorker to seek out places in Chicago
to find New York-style pizza. You will only be disappointed. Even if
the exact recipe, the exact ingredients (including the watah), the
oven, and the cook were all physically transported to Chicago, you
would find fault. Part of the experience of eating New York pizza is
eating pizza in New York.
A better use for your time would be to go over to the Zoo in Lincoln
Park and see if the hot dog vendors still sell the tastiest hot dog in
the states. A Chicago hot dog from a cart vendor can withstand even
the culinary insult of mixing ketchup and mustard on the same item.
R F
> On Fri, 2 May 2003 08:35:38 -0400, R F <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >I'm eager to try a place called "Cafe [sic] Luigi" in Lincoln Park,
> >which reportedly prepares authentic-tasting New York pizza of decent
> >quality, at least wrt Neapolitan pizza. I understand that they make
> >Sicilian pizza too, but, bowing to Chicago prejudices, they make it
> >round instead of square. C**p, do you know that place?
>
> I know Lincoln Park, of course, but not Cafe Luigi. I don't think I'd
> try a restaurant with Sic in the name.
>
> I think it is foolish for a New Yorker
Whoa. I'm no mere New Yorker. I'm a Native Brooklynite.
> to seek out places in Chicago
> to find New York-style pizza. You will only be disappointed. Even if
> the exact recipe, the exact ingredients (including the watah), the
> oven, and the cook were all physically transported to Chicago, you
> would find fault.
If the "watah", as you call it (I'm not sure why, as we're not talking
about Boston "pizza") were physically transported to Chicago, that
might be just enough to do the trick. Unfortunately, Chicago has bad
water, like most of the US. The tap water here is drinkable, but
barely so. It seems to contain sugar, for one thing.
Cafe Luigi reportedly is run by a guy from Brooklyn, or some part of
New York city anyway.
BTW, I got this menu for a North Side pizza place in my junk mail,
C**p, and it boasted of its "Italian-style" pizza being made with
"part-skim mozzarella". Only in the Midwest!
I've actually considered opening up my own pizzeria in Chicago, C**p,
even though I know nothing about how to make pizza and I know nothing
about how to run a business. These people are dying to experience good
pizza, whether they know it or not. I could be a very rich man.
> Part of the experience of eating New York pizza is
> eating pizza in New York.
That's true in a sense, C**p. But the truth is, a whole lot of
Chicago, from what I've seen of it, is *very* similar to New York.
Take your old neighborhood of Lincoln Park, C**p. You can be on most
blocks of Lincoln Park and easily imagine that you're in such
old Queens neighborhoods as Astoria or Woodside or Jackson Heights or
even one or two Brooklyn neighborhoods (though overall it's more of a
Queens look). Even the skyscrapers of downtown are the right distance.
Geez, there's even an important commercial street called "Broadway",
looking exactly like the Broadway in Astoria & vic.! The problem is
the relative lack of ethnic culture. I understand that
Lincoln Park and nearby areas were historically German immigrant
neighborhoods. But where's the German culture today, C**p?
Where are the German cafes and bakeries that you can still find in New
York neighborhoods that *once* had significant German immigrant
populations? I will say that there seem to be a nice quantity of
cheap Mexican eateries in Chicago, which is one of the ways in which
Chicago can legitimately claim to be superior to New York. The
blending of Bavarian and Mexican cultures works well enough in Santa
Rosa, FWIH.
So anyway, it wouldn't take much (other than better water) to recreate
the New York pizzeria experience in Chicago. And *if* Chicagoans
discovered the lost art of pizza-making, they might easily put New
Yorkers to shame.
> A better use for your time would be to go over to the Zoo in Lincoln
> Park and see if the hot dog vendors still sell the tastiest hot dog in
> the states. A Chicago hot dog from a cart vendor can withstand even
> the culinary insult of mixing ketchup and mustard on the same item.
Hmm, are those hot dogs relics of the German ethnic culture? EMWTK
(IWTK).
The surf looked rather rough today, C**p. BTW, I'd like to propose
to Daley that Chicago buy up all the salt from Utah's Great Salt Lake
and add it (and somehow contain it) to the Chicago-bordering part of
Lake Michigan. If I were friends with an Alderman I might be able to
see this accomplished.
Science question: In warm climes, like the Caribbean, or the
Mediterranean, the sea seems often to be a turquoise color.
But I've noticed that, viewed from Chicago, Lake Michigan often also
gets to be that nice tropical-looking turquoise color. What gives?
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Fri, 2 May 2003, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> > A better use for your time would be to go over to the Zoo in
> > Lincoln Park and see if the hot dog vendors still sell the
> > tastiest hot dog in the states. A Chicago hot dog from a cart
> > vendor can withstand even the culinary insult of mixing ketchup
> > and mustard on the same item.
>
> Hmm, are those hot dogs relics of the German ethnic culture? EMWTK
> (IWTK).
Jewish. To guys from Austria(-Hungary) founded the Vienna Sausage
Company, which makes probably 80% of the hot dogs sold commercially in
Chicago, shortly after introducing their product at the World's Fair
in 1893. (No, I'm not claiming that they invented the hot dog, but
they are responsible for the Chicago variety and its popularity, and
probably for the name "wiener".)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |First Law of Anthropology:
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | If they're doing something you
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | don't understand, it's either an
| isolated lunatic, a religious
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | ritual, or art.
(650)857-7572
R J Valentine
} On Fri, 2 May 2003, Tony Cooper wrote:
...
}> Part of the experience of eating New York pizza is
}> eating pizza in New York.
}
} That's true in a sense, C**p.
...
I'm here to tell you that it's false in a sense, too. On a road trip from
down here in the Laurelplex to New York back in the sixties, I got dragged
into Manhattan by a passenger to get pizza from what was supposed to be
the best pizza place in the world, but it didn't impress me as any better
than the standard stuff at Pizza Hut in Laurel.
A guy who used to make good pizza was Morty Apple at Apple's Pie here in
Laurel proper. There was some good pizza to be had at the Irish Pizza Pub
in South Laurel, too.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
Evan Kirshenbaum
> R F <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> writes:
>
> > Hmm, are those hot dogs relics of the German ethnic culture? EMWTK
> > (IWTK).
>
> Jewish. To guys from Austria(-Hungary) founded the Vienna Sausage
Er, *two* guys from Austria(-Hungary).
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |You may hate gravity, but gravity
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |doesn't care.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Clayton Christensen
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Martin Ambuhl
> I've actually considered opening up my own pizzeria in Chicago, C**p,
> even though I know nothing about how to make pizza and I know nothing
> about how to run a business. These people are dying to experience good
> pizza, whether they know it or not. I could be a very rich man.
This is a losing proposition. People in Chicago take great pride in
their inferior products. Chicago Pizza is, they will tell you, the best
in the world. As Eli's cheesecake is the best cheesecake. Chicago
hotdogs make Coney Island wither to nothingness. It is not just their
second-class status relative to New York that is addressed by this
boosterism. They imagine that their pig bones dipped in sauce define
barbeque. They cannot imagine a real Texas-style barbeque pit with a
side of beef being tenderly smoked.
> The problem is
> the relative lack of ethnic culture. I understand that
> Lincoln Park and nearby areas were historically German immigrant
> neighborhoods. But where's the German culture today, C**p?
> Where are the German cafes and bakeries that you can still find in New
> York neighborhoods that *once* had significant German immigrant
> populations?
It is not to Lincoln Park but to Lincoln Square that you need to look.
Lincoln Square (with Ravenswood) is the Chicago "Germantown." The
Mexican restaurants you want are in Pilsen, despite the Czech name, and
in Little Village.
Before I moved into Lincoln Square, I lived in Andersonville, where you
can see shopkeepers from Cuba, Peru, and Iraq dressed in Swedish garb
for celebrations of the holidays.
R Fontana
On Fri, 2 May 2003, R J Valentine wrote:
> On Fri, 2 May 2003 11:35:30 -0400 R F <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> } On Fri, 2 May 2003, Tony Cooper wrote:
> ...
> }> Part of the experience of eating New York pizza is
> }> eating pizza in New York.
> }
> } That's true in a sense, C**p.
> ...
>
> I'm here to tell you that it's false in a sense, too. On a road trip from
> down here in the Laurelplex to New York back in the sixties, I got dragged
> into Manhattan by a passenger to get pizza from what was supposed to be
> the best pizza place in the world, but it didn't impress me as any better
> than the standard stuff at Pizza Hut in Laurel.
Oh, was it the Ray's Pizza back when there was only one, I think on Sixth
Avenue in Greenwich Village, somewhere near that basketball court
playground place?
My older brother contended it was the best pizza in the city back in the
late 'Seventies. I think I tried it once, but I don't remember anything
special about it. My brother is a fairly good judge of pizza, however.
He resides in San Diego now, a city which, he reports, has no legitimate
pizza.
> A guy who used to make good pizza was Morty Apple at Apple's Pie here in
> Laurel proper. There was some good pizza to be had at the Irish Pizza Pub
> in South Laurel, too.
You're just trying to irk me, I know. It won't work!
Gwen Lenker
wrote:
[...]
>If the "watah", as you call it (I'm not sure why, as we're not talking
>about Boston "pizza") were physically transported to Chicago, that
>might be just enough to do the trick. Unfortunately, Chicago has bad
>water, like most of the US. The tap water here is drinkable, but
>barely so. It seems to contain sugar, for one thing.
That sweet taste might indicate the presence of lead somewhere along
the water distribution route. Switch to bottled immdiately. You
don't need fancy stuff. Plain old filtered water in gallon plastic
bottles will do. Or get a Brita pitcher and make your own.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> This is a losing proposition. People in Chicago take great pride in
> their inferior products. Chicago Pizza is, they will tell you, the
> best in the world. As Eli's cheesecake is the best cheesecake.
> Chicago hotdogs make Coney Island wither to nothingness. It is not
> just their second-class status relative to New York that is
> addressed by this boosterism. They imagine that their pig bones
> dipped in sauce define barbeque. They cannot imagine a real
> Texas-style barbeque pit with a side of beef being tenderly smoked.
We can imagine it. We might even eat it once or twice for a change of
pace. We can imagine a cardboard circle smeared with tomato sauce on
it as well, too. We can even imagine that someone could consider
eating it and calling it "pizza". We'd imagine that they had a New
York accent to go along with the funny sense of taste.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The Society for the Preservation of
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Tithesis commends your ebriated and
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |scrutable use of delible and
|defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |and couth. We are gruntled and
(650)857-7572 |consolate that you have the ertia and
|eptitude to choose such putably
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |pensible tithesis, which we parage.
Martin Ambuhl
> I'm here to tell you that it's false in a sense, too. On a road trip from
> down here in the Laurelplex to New York back in the sixties, I got dragged
> into Manhattan by a passenger to get pizza from what was supposed to be
> the best pizza place in the world, but it didn't impress me as any better
> than the standard stuff at Pizza Hut in Laurel.
The best pizza in New York is eaten in the open air, and is bought from
vendors located under Brooklyn subway (El, if you want) stops. This is
why we find restaurants called "Brooklyn Pizza" in such places as Costa
Mesa, California; Placentia, California; Orlando, Florida;Huntinton, New
York; Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; Tucson, Arizona; Grand Rapid, Michigan; ...
Many neighborhoods in Brooklyn claim bragging rights for the best pizza
restaurants. Such places as Flatbush must be considered. My stomping
grounds, though, are Prospect Park, Bay Ridge, Gravesend, Sheepshead
Bay, Mill Basin, Brighton Beach, and Downtown Brooklyn. Inexpensive
places like DiFara's (Neapolitan) and L&B Spumoni Gradens (Sicilian)
abound. Lodomini's Taste of Italy on 3rd Ave is superb. Grimaldi's in
DUMBO is worth considering.
If you must eat your pizza in Manhattan, try Lombardi's in Little Italy,
John's Pizza or Gonzo in the West Village,
pund kamath
pund kamath
R F
> The best pizza in New York is eaten in the open air, and is bought from
> vendors located under Brooklyn subway (El, if you want) stops.
A note on "el": I haven't heard anyone born after approx. 1945 use
"el" for New York's elevated lines, etc., but it's quite common in
older speakers. (An exception is in historical references to the Sixth
Avenue El and the Third Avenue El.) People born before 1945 would
remember the 3rd Avenue El, but I'm not sure why that would be
significant. "Elevated" is similarly unused by younger speakers. It's
just "subway" or, in true Brooklynese, "the train". I'd say your use
of "stops" there is not correct for New York speech. It's "station";
you only think of it as a "stop" when you're actually on a train.
> Many neighborhoods in Brooklyn claim bragging rights for the best pizza
> restaurants. Such places as Flatbush must be considered.
You are correct, sir. Flatbush was the home of the fine humble
Riviera pizzeria on Cortelyou Road, long run by the great pizzamaker
Dom. But it went out of business around 1981. But remember that a
couple of blocks further east was the San Remo pizzeria, which made
some of the worst pizza that side of Lake Michigan. So mere location
in Flatbush is no guarantee of quality.
I've mentioned the Avenue J place before. By the time I was growing up
that area was thought of as Midwood rather than Flatbush, but it would
be proper for historical reasons to think of it as Flatbush.
> My stomping
> grounds, though, are Prospect Park, Bay Ridge, Gravesend, Sheepshead
> Bay, Mill Basin, Brighton Beach, and Downtown Brooklyn. Inexpensive
> places like DiFara's (Neapolitan) and L&B Spumoni Gradens (Sicilian)
> abound. Lodomini's Taste of Italy on 3rd Ave is superb.
Sounds good, except I'd sooner go to Manhattan for pizza than go to
Mill Basin. I think Queen Pizza is no longer in business; I looked
for it this past summer but couldn't find it. Sad.
Where do you go for lard bread? Oy, that's another thing you can't get
in Chicago.
R F
> Martin Ambuhl <mam...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > This is a losing proposition. People in Chicago take great pride in
> > their inferior products. Chicago Pizza is, they will tell you, the
> > best in the world. As Eli's cheesecake is the best cheesecake.
> > Chicago hotdogs make Coney Island wither to nothingness. It is not
> > just their second-class status relative to New York that is
> > addressed by this boosterism. They imagine that their pig bones
> > dipped in sauce define barbeque. They cannot imagine a real
> > Texas-style barbeque pit with a side of beef being tenderly smoked.
>
> We can imagine it. We might even eat it once or twice for a change of
> pace. We can imagine a cardboard circle smeared with tomato sauce on
> it as well, too. We can even imagine that someone could consider
> eating it and calling it "pizza". We'd imagine that they had a New
> York accent to go along with the funny sense of taste.
From what I've observed so far, what they call "thin crust" pizza seems
to be popular enough that every pizza place seems to have it. JAOT. I
don't know from the quality (yet) (I've been too scared to try any
pizza in Chicago).
R F
> On Fri, 2 May 2003 11:35:30 -0400, R F <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> [...]
> >If the "watah", as you call it (I'm not sure why, as we're not talking
> >about Boston "pizza") were physically transported to Chicago, that
> >might be just enough to do the trick. Unfortunately, Chicago has bad
> >water, like most of the US. The tap water here is drinkable, but
> >barely so. It seems to contain sugar, for one thing.
>
> That sweet taste might indicate the presence of lead somewhere along
> the water distribution route.
Aha. Thank you. Actually, my current apartment's tap water doesn't
seem to have the sweet taste, but the place I was staying at previously
did. But I will follow your advice anyway.
Hmm, maybe that's why it took me half a day to think of the name
"Woolworth's".
Martin Ambuhl
> From what I've observed so far, what they call "thin crust" pizza seems
> to be popular enough that every pizza place seems to have it. JAOT. I
> don't know from the quality (yet) (I've been too scared to try any
> pizza in Chicago).
Don't be. If you eat pizza in Chicago, stick to the Chicago-style of
deep-dish pizza. It can be very good. Don't compare it to New York
Pizza; it is a different food and should be judged on its own merits.
The other crap is the same as is served at Pizza Hut in Pine Bluff,
Arkansas and other fine centers of eating.
Robert Bannister
> I'm eager to try a place called "Cafe [sic] Luigi" in Lincoln Park,
> which reportedly prepares authentic-tasting New York pizza of decent
> quality, at least wrt Neapolitan pizza. I understand that they make
> Sicilian pizza too, but, bowing to Chicago prejudices, they make it
> round instead of square.
How do you make square pizza? I mean that twirling the dough around with
one finger is part of the entire showmanship of a pizza place.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> On Fri, 2 May 2003, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>
>>On Fri, 2 May 2003 08:35:38 -0400, R F <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I'm eager to try a place called "Cafe [sic] Luigi" in Lincoln Park,
>>>which reportedly prepares authentic-tasting New York pizza of decent
>>>quality, at least wrt Neapolitan pizza. I understand that they make
>>>Sicilian pizza too, but, bowing to Chicago prejudices, they make it
>>>round instead of square. C**p, do you know that place?
>>
>>I know Lincoln Park, of course, but not Cafe Luigi. I don't think I'd
>>try a restaurant with Sic in the name.
>>
>>I think it is foolish for a New Yorker
>
>
> Whoa. I'm no mere New Yorker. I'm a Native Brooklynite.
I watched an old Cary Grant movie the other night. There was a scene in
Brooklyn and then, as the scene changed, there was the caption: "And now
back in the real New York...". I thought of you at the time.
--
Rob Bannister
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>> I think it is foolish for a New Yorker
>
>Whoa. I'm no mere New Yorker. I'm a Native Brooklynite.
Brooklyn-smooklyn. It's all New York.
>> Part of the experience of eating New York pizza is
>> eating pizza in New York.
>
> I understand that
>Lincoln Park and nearby areas were historically German immigrant
>neighborhoods. But where's the German culture today, C**p?
>Where are the German cafes and bakeries that you can still find in New
>York neighborhoods that *once* had significant German immigrant
>populations?
When I left, they were all on Lincoln Avenue. The bakeries, the
bierstubes, the restaurants, and the stores with signs in the windows
in German. Now, I suppose, they're all gone. The original
proprietors are dead, and their kids are computer programmers and
stock brokers.
Now, a pizza related observation. I picked up a pizza to go tonight
at Papa John's. Large, with sausage and onions. $13.17 before tax.
I balked at the price because it was higher than Papa John's normally
charges. "Wait!" said the girl. "Have I got a deal for you!"
If I ordered a large pizza with *three* toppings, it would be only
$9.99 before tax. So, I added green peppers and reduced the cost by
$3.18.
I was sorely tempted to do a Jack Nicholson thing. "All right. Give
me a large pizza with sausage, onions, and green peppers. Hold the
green peppers."
Tony Cooper
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>R F <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> writes:
>
>> On Fri, 2 May 2003, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>> > A better use for your time would be to go over to the Zoo in
>> > Lincoln Park and see if the hot dog vendors still sell the
>> > tastiest hot dog in the states. A Chicago hot dog from a cart
>> > vendor can withstand even the culinary insult of mixing ketchup
>> > and mustard on the same item.
>>
>> Hmm, are those hot dogs relics of the German ethnic culture? EMWTK
>> (IWTK).
>
>Jewish. To guys from Austria(-Hungary) founded the Vienna Sausage
>Company, which makes probably 80% of the hot dogs sold commercially in
>Chicago, shortly after introducing their product at the World's Fair
>in 1893. (No, I'm not claiming that they invented the hot dog, but
>they are responsible for the Chicago variety and its popularity, and
>probably for the name "wiener".)
Why is that "Jewish" and not "Austrian"? If they were Catholic, would
it be "Catholic" or "Austrian"?
Is it like rock, paper, scissors where religion takes nationality?
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>On Fri, 2 May 2003 11:35:30 -0400 R F <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>} On Fri, 2 May 2003, Tony Cooper wrote:
>...
>}> Part of the experience of eating New York pizza is
>}> eating pizza in New York.
>}
>} That's true in a sense, C**p.
>...
>
>I'm here to tell you that it's false in a sense, too. On a road trip from
>down here in the Laurelplex to New York back in the sixties, I got dragged
>into Manhattan by a passenger to get pizza from what was supposed to be
>the best pizza place in the world, but it didn't impress me as any better
>than the standard stuff at Pizza Hut in Laurel.
>
But you aren't a New Yorker. A New Yorker could eat a roof shingle
covered with Cheese Whizz and pronounce it the best pizza in the world
if it was served in New York. It's not like they've got taste or
anything.
Tony Cooper
I remember the German area on Lincoln Avenue, but I can't remember the
cross-street. I know it is not in Lincoln Park. There was a large,
independent department store in the middle of the district.
R J Valentine
} On Fri, 2 May 2003, R J Valentine wrote:
...
}> A guy who used to make good pizza was Morty Apple at Apple's Pie here in
}> Laurel proper. There was some good pizza to be had at the Irish Pizza Pub
}> in South Laurel, too.
}
} You're just trying to irk me, I know. It won't work!
Irk you? Moi? If I were trying to irk you, I'd ask how the bagels are.
R J Valentine
Who you calling not a New Yorker? I've got Fiorello La Guardia's
signature on my birth certificate. I learned to talk in the City of New
York. I had a New York Public Library borrower's card. My degree says
"Neo Eboraci" on it (IIRC). I used to get my haircuts in the barber
school in the subway system. I used to go to Customs House auctions. My
paternal grandparents were born in Brooklyn (Fourth Largest City in
America). I was reporting on eating pizza in Manhattan at a time when 99
percent of my time in America had been spent in the State of New York, and
I wasn't impressed with the pizza.
Heck, Charlie the Tuna is probably a New Yorker.
TheResilient
> Phaloodaa, made with wheat starch and cornstarch is
> thousands of years old in Bharatiya (that is, Indian)
> cuisine. It is used on a special ice cream dish known
> as kulfee (pronounce the u as the u in put).
Just around the corner of the main road in my vicinity, we have this
ice-cream shop run by people that *look* like Afghanis, but I am not
sure if they are. My friends and I often go there to either buy a cup
of ice-cream, composed of two scoops, worth a mere Rs. 16, or a big
cup of colourful "Phaloodaa" worth Rs. 30. The other day I was
thinking what would one call "Phaloodaa" in English. Later,
ironically, I came across this word, I don't remember now, that
described the Phaloodaa drink while randomly browsing the dictionary.
The one served in a large glass, which has pieces of fruits in it as
well. Now, only if I can remember the word ...
--
TheResilient
My unfinished Cyber Thriller, 'Anonymous', is finally online
http://adic.netfirms.com/index.htm
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>} But you aren't a New Yorker. A New Yorker could eat a roof shingle
>} covered with Cheese Whizz and pronounce it the best pizza in the world
>} if it was served in New York. It's not like they've got taste or
>} anything.
>
>Who you calling not a New Yorker? I've got Fiorello La Guardia's
>signature on my birth certificate. I learned to talk in the City of New
>York. I had a New York Public Library borrower's card. My degree says
>"Neo Eboraci" on it (IIRC). I used to get my haircuts in the barber
>school in the subway system. I used to go to Customs House auctions. My
>paternal grandparents were born in Brooklyn (Fourth Largest City in
>America). I was reporting on eating pizza in Manhattan at a time when 99
>percent of my time in America had been spent in the State of New York, and
>I wasn't impressed with the pizza.
>
I don't know whether to apologize or admit to sucking up by saying you
are not a New Yorker. I didn't realize that you were from New York
City. I had the idea that you were from somewhere in the State of New
York, but not from one of the boroughs. "Not a New Yorker" means not
from a boroughs.
R H Draney
>
>Now, a pizza related observation. I picked up a pizza to go tonight
>at Papa John's. Large, with sausage and onions. $13.17 before tax.
>I balked at the price because it was higher than Papa John's normally
>charges. "Wait!" said the girl. "Have I got a deal for you!"
>
>If I ordered a large pizza with *three* toppings, it would be only
>$9.99 before tax. So, I added green peppers and reduced the cost by
>$3.18.
>
>I was sorely tempted to do a Jack Nicholson thing. "All right. Give
>me a large pizza with sausage, onions, and green peppers. Hold the
>green peppers."
That, in my opinion, is the best thing one can do with green peppers...hold them
as far from anything you intend to eat as you possibly can...almost anything
Papa John's is willing to put on a pizza is preferable to the taint of bell
peppers; yea, even unto pineapple (not a favorite of mine, granted, but we're
doing relativism here)....
You want a truly entertaining evening?...next time they offer you three toppings
for the price of two (or whatever the deal is), see how long it takes to get
them to accept that "sausage, sausage, and sausage" is three toppings by any
commercially viable definition....r
M. J. Powell
<resi...@inbox.lv> writes
>"Dr. Jai Maharaj" typed:
>
>> Phaloodaa, made with wheat starch and cornstarch is
>> thousands of years old in Bharatiya (that is, Indian)
>> cuisine. It is used on a special ice cream dish known
>> as kulfee (pronounce the u as the u in put).
>
>Just around the corner of the main road in my vicinity, we have this
>ice-cream shop run by people that *look* like Afghanis, but I am not
>sure if they are. My friends and I often go there to either buy a cup
>of ice-cream, composed of two scoops, worth a mere Rs. 16, or a big
>cup of colourful "Phaloodaa" worth Rs. 30. The other day I was
>thinking what would one call "Phaloodaa" in English. Later,
>ironically, I came across this word, I don't remember now, that
>described the Phaloodaa drink while randomly browsing the dictionary.
>The one served in a large glass, which has pieces of fruits in it as
>well. Now, only if I can remember the word ...
'Sundae'? But you don't drink it, you eat it with a long spoon.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Sara Moffat Lorimer
> "Not a New Yorker" means not
> from a boroughs.
I'm trying to remember how Berk Breathed spelled the sound of someone
blowing a raspberry...
Mark Brader
> Brooklyn-smooklyn. It's all New York.
Oy!
Brooklyn-*Schmooklyn*, please!
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "I don't _want_ people using Linux for ideological
m...@vex.net | reasons. I think ideology sucks." -- Torvalds
R F
[R J Valentine:]
> >Who you calling not a New Yorker? ...
> I don't know whether to apologize or admit to sucking up by saying you
> are not a New Yorker. I didn't realize that you were from New York
> City. I had the idea that you were from somewhere in the State of New
> York, but not from one of the boroughs. "Not a New Yorker" means not
> from a boroughs.
From "a" boroughs? Oy!
ObAUE: Many New Yorkers, me included, often use "the boroughs" to mean
the *non-Manhattan* boroughs -- and mainly Brooklyn and Queens. (This
might be mainly a usage by people who've lived in Brooklyn and Queens,
but remember that a majority of New York city's population lives in
Brooklyn and Queens.) The Bronx is sort of a junior member of "the
boroughs", while Staten Island usually isn't thought about much.
Arguably "the boroughs" is short for "the outer boroughs". "The outer
boroughs" is only used by people speaking from a Manhattan-centric
perspective, and it seems to be most common among bogus non-native
types. But "the outer boroughs" is clearly derogatory.
This may also be related to how, when you mean to refer to all five of
the boroughs, you often say "the five boroughs" or "all five boroughs".
R F
> On Fri, 02 May 2003 22:27:25 -0400 Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> }>
> } But you aren't a New Yorker. ...
> Who you calling not a New Yorker? I've got Fiorello La Guardia's
> signature on my birth certificate.
You're lucky. I have to live with having John Vliet Lindsay on my
birth certificate.
> I learned to talk in the City of New York.
Me too.
> I had a New York Public Library borrower's card.
I still have one. It was valid as of August 2000, the last time I
tried to borrow anything with it. They still have my 1994-1998
address, I think.
> My degree says "Neo Eboraci" on it (IIRC).
I have no such degree. Yours is probably significant, but others
wouldn't be.
> I used to get my haircuts in the barber school in the subway system.
I was too ascared to do that. That's like letting dental students work
on your teeth (IUTDTITUK[JK]). The most recent New York haircut I got
was in January, from the place on 45th Street just east of Lexington
Avenue, north side of the street, second floor, near where that
Japanese noodle restaurant is.
> I was reporting on eating pizza in Manhattan at a time when 99
> percent of my time in America had been spent in the State of New York, and
> I wasn't impressed with the pizza.
Also, if we go by the Reconstructed (with Corrections) Timeline of R J
Valentine's Life, that would have been well before Watergate. Thus,
your comments are valuable, just as C**p's impressions of Chicago from
days gone by are more valuable than those of contemporary residents
(only more so, or less so). Remember, New York pizza quality has
generally declined greatly over the years -- or so I say, but could
that be because after 1992 I spent nearly all of my New York time in
Manhattan, including my pizza time? I wonder. Maybe Manhattan *always*
had worse pizza than the Boroughs. I dunno; that place across from One
Liberty Plaza is still around, even after 9/11, and their pizza was
excellent, I thought.
R F
> But you aren't a New Yorker. A New Yorker could eat a roof shingle
> covered with Cheese Whizz and pronounce it the best pizza in the world
> if it was served in New York. It's not like they've got taste or
> anything.
C**p, as Jack or Bobby Kennedy might have said, "That's ab[sV":d]!". I
just mentioned the San Remo pizzeria on Cortelyou Road the other day as
being notoriously bad, and that was way back in the day.
R F
> On Fri, 2 May 2003 11:35:30 -0400, R F <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >> I think it is foolish for a New Yorker
> >
> >Whoa. I'm no mere New Yorker. I'm a Native Brooklynite.
>
> Brooklyn-smooklyn. It's all New York.
[Mark Brader's response incorporated.]
In this case, as in so many others, it says more to be a Native
Brooklynite, C**p. FWIU, you've spent all your New York time at (1)
the Plaza Hotel, (b) the Russian Tea Room, and (c) the Hard Rock Cafe.
Maybe you went on one of those horse-drawn carriage ridges too, I
dunno.
> > I understand that
> >Lincoln Park and nearby areas were historically German immigrant
> >neighborhoods. But where's the German culture today, C**p?
> >Where are the German cafes and bakeries that you can still find in New
> >York neighborhoods that *once* had significant German immigrant
> >populations?
>
> When I left, they were all on Lincoln Avenue. The bakeries, the
> bierstubes, the restaurants, and the stores with signs in the windows
> in German. Now, I suppose, they're all gone.
I may have mixed up Lincoln Avenue with Lincoln Park, but I was
thinking in terms of a century ago, so I dunno.
> The original proprietors are dead, and their kids are computer
> programmers and stock brokers.
Why those particular occupational groups? Just curious. In New York,
stockbrokers are disproportionately Irish-American, for some reason.
> Now, a pizza related observation. I picked up a pizza to go tonight
> at Papa John's.
That's not pizza, C**p. That's "pizza".
> Large, with sausage and onions. $13.17 before tax.
C**p, lesson number one. Don't put any so-called "toppings" on pizza.
If you need to cover up the pizza with "toppings", there's something
wrong with it as well as you.
R F
I honestly don't know from how to make pizza. I assume that it's made
to fit a square-shaped pan or similar thing.
R F
Thank you, I think.
Which movie? He was in _Arsenic and Old Lace_, which was supposed to
take place in Brooklyn Heights I think. A good movie, and good
adaptation of the play.
TheResilient
> 'Sundae'?
Yes! Yes! That's the word!
> But you don't drink it, you eat it with a long spoon.
Not necessarily. They serve it with a straw and a plastic spoon. So,
you use a combination of both: sucking and chewing.
--
TheResilient
"It's pointless, useless, and hazardous to trust anyone in this cruel,
barbaric, and vicious life." (TheResilient)
R J Valentine
} On Sat, 3 May 2003, R J Valentine wrote:
...
}> I was reporting on eating pizza in Manhattan at a time when 99
}> percent of my time in America had been spent in the State of New York, and
}> I wasn't impressed with the pizza.
}
} Also, if we go by the Reconstructed (with Corrections) Timeline of R J
} Valentine's Life, that would have been well before Watergate.
_Well_ before. But, in the interest(s) if corrections, that 99 percent
should probably be around 95, counting side trips to Heidelberg and such.
But all of that is either within the city limits or within walking range
of commuter rail, except for vacations Upstate.
} had worse pizza than the Boroughs. I dunno; that place across from One
} Liberty Plaza is still around, even after 9/11, and their pizza was
} excellent, I thought.
The pizza I had in Manhattan might have been better than I remembered it,
but it sure wasn't worth the drive through the tunnels for. That reminds
me, though, that we have a Verrazano Bridge (no "Narrows" in ours) right
here in Maryland, over to Assateague. I don't know how they keep the wild
horses from crossing it -- maybe it's because they can't see across it, so
the choice is between sky and food.
Martin Ambuhl
> On Fri, 2 May 2003, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>When I left, they were all on Lincoln Avenue. The bakeries, the
>>bierstubes, the restaurants, and the stores with signs in the windows
>>in German. Now, I suppose, they're all gone.
>
>
> I may have mixed up Lincoln Avenue with Lincoln Park, but I was
> thinking in terms of a century ago, so I dunno.
I repeat: it is Lincoln Square (Ravenswood). Get off the train at the
Western station. The corner of Lincoln, Western, and Lawrence, just
east of the Ravenswood Post Office, marks the northwest corner of the
commercial part. Lincoln actually runs into the Walgreens at Lawrence
and resumes as North Lincoln on the other side of the Tru-Value hardware
store.
M. J. Powell
<resi...@inbox.lv> writes
>"M. J. Powell" typed:
>
>> 'Sundae'?
>
>Yes! Yes! That's the word!
>
>> But you don't drink it, you eat it with a long spoon.
>
>Not necessarily. They serve it with a straw and a plastic spoon. So,
>you use a combination of both: sucking and chewing.
Not in Wales...
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Jerry Friedman
> R F wrote:
>
> > From what I've observed so far, what they call "thin crust" pizza seems
> > to be popular enough that every pizza place seems to have it. JAOT. I
> > don't know from the quality (yet) (I've been too scared to try any
> > pizza in Chicago).
>
> Don't be. If you eat pizza in Chicago, stick to the Chicago-style of
> deep-dish pizza. It can be very good. Don't compare it to New York
> Pizza; it is a different food and should be judged on its own merits.
Absolutely. Think of it as a cheese-tomato-and-other-stuff tart with
a raised crust. Mmmm... The only food I miss from when I lived in
Champaign-Urbana is the deep-dish pizza from Giordano's, Giovanni's,
Uno, etc. Well, that and the sweet corn. Well, that and the breads
from the health-food store.
> The other crap is the same as is served at Pizza Hut in Pine Bluff,
> Arkansas and other fine centers of eating.
But can you get green chile on pizza in Pine Bluff, Arkansas?
--
Jerry Friedman dislikes chile on pizza.
Evan Kirshenbaum
No, it's simply that they weren't from the "Austrian ethnic culture".
They were from the "Jewish ethnic culture", happening to reside in
Austria-Hungary. They probably spoke Yiddish rather than standard
(Austrian) German, and you can be sure that ethnic Austrians made sure
that they remained aware that they were Jews, not ethnically
Austrians. There was a Jewish culture that spanned central Europe,
overlaying many countries (Germany, Austria, Hungary, Poland,
Lithuania, etc.) but always having more in common with itself in those
other countries than it did with the non-Jewish cultures it lived
side-by-side with. (Although this was less so in the bigger cities.)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The Elizabethans had so many words
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |for the female genitals that it is
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |quite hard to speak a sentence of
|modern English without inadvertently
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |mentioning at least three of them.
(650)857-7572 | Terry Pratchett
Skitt
> Tony Cooper wrote:
>> "Not a New Yorker" means not
>> from a boroughs.
>
> I'm trying to remember how Berk Breathed spelled the sound of someone
> blowing a raspberry...
That's "Berke" and "THPFFT".
See http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~kiltie/images/humor/opus.gif
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel (Fawlty Towers)
Robert Bannister
But surely wieners and hot dogs are made from pork, or at least sawdust
that has been near pork.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
The very one. I enjoyed it, although I must have seen it at the cinema
many years ago.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
Obviously our tastes differ: I wouldn't buy a pizza in a place where I
couldn't see them being made.
--
Rob Bannister
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>On Sat, 3 May 2003, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>[R J Valentine:]
>> >Who you calling not a New Yorker? ...
>
>> I don't know whether to apologize or admit to sucking up by saying you
>> are not a New Yorker. I didn't realize that you were from New York
>> City. I had the idea that you were from somewhere in the State of New
>> York, but not from one of the boroughs. "Not a New Yorker" means not
>> from a boroughs.
>
>From "a" boroughs? Oy!
You dilute the Oy! when you Oy! after an obvious typo.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>On Fri, 2 May 2003, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 2 May 2003 11:35:30 -0400, R F <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> I think it is foolish for a New Yorker
>> >
>> >Whoa. I'm no mere New Yorker. I'm a Native Brooklynite.
>>
>> Brooklyn-smooklyn. It's all New York.
>
>[Mark Brader's response incorporated.]
>
>In this case, as in so many others, it says more to be a Native
>Brooklynite, C**p. FWIU, you've spent all your New York time at (1)
>the Plaza Hotel, (b) the Russian Tea Room, and (c) the Hard Rock Cafe.
>Maybe you went on one of those horse-drawn carriage ridges too, I
>dunno.
Actually, I did take my wife and family on a carriage ride through
Central Park.
I only stopped in the Hard Rock the once. My daughter was with me,
and she wanted to see it.
The worst experience I had in NYC was a business trip with a business
associate. We had two nights in Manhattan, and we each chose the
venue for one of the evenings. On my choice, we went to Carnegie Hall
and dinner at the Palm. On his, Chock Full O' Nuts and the Auto Show.
Carnegie Hall was cool. The had a guest Russian soloist, and some
protesters came in and threw balloons of fake blood on the crowd.
Great sounds and performance art.
>> The original proprietors are dead, and their kids are computer
>> programmers and stock brokers.
>
>Why those particular occupational groups? Just curious. In New York,
>stockbrokers are disproportionately Irish-American, for some reason.
Just examples of how the younger generation goes into mainstream
occupations and breaks out of the ethnic circle.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> But surely wieners and hot dogs are made from pork, or at least
> sawdust that has been near pork.
Not those manufactured by Vienna, which is most sold in Chicago
hot dog joints and vendors. They're all beef.
Vienna Beef uses fresh beef (never pork, lamb or mutton),
processed from healthy animals.
http://www.viennabeef.com/faqs.htm
Interestingly, they are not, these days, kosher
Historically, kosher products have a flavor profile which
duplicates Vienna's flavor. However, while Vienna Beef products
are beef, they are not produced with koshered meat. Kosher refers
to the ritual beef slaughter and the salting of the meat.
ibid.
They certainly used to be. I've seen pictures of the old plant, and
signs on it claimed that the meat was kosher (in English and
Yiddish).
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The plural of "anecdote"
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |is not "data"
Palo Alto, CA 94304
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Tony Cooper
Lawrence was what I was looking for. I couldn't place Lincoln Square.
I think the department store I was thinking of was one of the branches
of Goldblatt's. Maybe.
Padraig Breathnach
>... In New York,
>stockbrokers are disproportionately Irish-American, for some reason.
>
Oy!
PB
Martin Ambuhl
> But surely wieners and hot dogs are made from pork, or at least sawdust
> that has been near pork.
Bite your tongue! The Vienna Sausage Manufacturing Company built the
reputation of Chicago hot dogs on the Vienna All-Beef Wiener, introduced
at the 1883 Chicago World's Fair. Next you'll be claiming that their
King Kold line is not kosher, or that its Chipico Pickles are made from
carrots. BTW, Greenpeace gives the a "green label."
The last I knew, they were still in the 2500 block of N. Damen Ave. Not
everyone flees to the suburbs.
The real hot dogs, of course, come from Brooklyn. And, yes, Nathan's
Hot Dogs are also all beef. However, Nathan's is not otherwise kosher
(how could they be selling shellfish on Coney Island?). They *did* have
one completely Kosher store on King's Highway, but it closed in May,
2001, if I remember correctly.
Martin Ambuhl
> Not those manufactured by Vienna, which is most sold in Chicago
> hot dog joints and vendors. They're all beef.
[...]
> Interestingly, they are not, these days, kosher
VSC does, however, have a kosher line: King Kold.
It would be pointless for VSC hot dogs to be kosher: the number sold in
Chicago diners (which all seem to have the same Greek diner menu) as
"francheeses" must be enormous. Serving kosher hot dogs with cheese
melted on it rather defeats the exercise.
TheResilient
> >> But you don't drink it, you eat it with a long spoon.
> >
> >Not necessarily. They serve it with a straw and a plastic spoon. So,
> >you use a combination of both: sucking and chewing.
>
> Not in Wales...
You mean there is no liquid in the Sundae you *eat*? What if the ice-
cream melts? Maybe, you drink it from the cup in the manner of
drinking coffee. But then you *are* drinking, are you not?
M. J. Powell
<resi...@inbox.lv> writes
>"M. J. Powell" typed:
>
>> >> But you don't drink it, you eat it with a long spoon.
>> >
>> >Not necessarily. They serve it with a straw and a plastic spoon. So,
>> >you use a combination of both: sucking and chewing.
>>
>> Not in Wales...
>
>You mean there is no liquid in the Sundae you *eat*? What if the ice-
>cream melts? Maybe, you drink it from the cup in the manner of
>drinking coffee. But then you *are* drinking, are you not?
When it melts you 'drink' it with the spoon!
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Mark Wallace
Or you spoon it with the spoon. Or, if you're spooning, you spoon it with
the other participant's spoon.
<marzipanic groups iced>
--
Mark Wallace
-----------------------------------------------------
For the intelligent approach to nasty humour, visit:
The Anglo-American Humour (humor) Site
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/
-----------------------------------------------------
M. J. Powell
<mwal...@dse.nl> writes
>M. J. Powell wrote:
>> In message <MPG.191f2c6ad...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>, TheResilient
>> <resi...@inbox.lv> writes
>>> "M. J. Powell" typed:
>>>
>>>>>> But you don't drink it, you eat it with a long spoon.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not necessarily. They serve it with a straw and a plastic spoon.
>>>>> So, you use a combination of both: sucking and chewing.
>>>>
>>>> Not in Wales...
>>>
>>> You mean there is no liquid in the Sundae you *eat*? What if the ice-
>>> cream melts? Maybe, you drink it from the cup in the manner of
>>> drinking coffee. But then you *are* drinking, are you not?
>>
>> When it melts you 'drink' it with the spoon!
>
>Or you spoon it with the spoon. Or, if you're spooning, you spoon it with
>the other participant's spoon.
That's a better method.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Tony Cooper
Malcolm) wrote:
>R F <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> writes:
>
>>Science question: In warm climes, like the Caribbean, or the
>>Mediterranean, the sea seems often to be a turquoise color.
>>But I've noticed that, viewed from Chicago, Lake Michigan often also
>>gets to be that nice tropical-looking turquoise color. What gives?
>
>Colour of the sky?
I don't remember Lake Michigan looking turquoise, but the color of a
body water to the observer is dependent on the depth and the bed. The
deeper the water, the darker the hue. Shallow water over sand is that
bright turquoise color. Shallow water over thick underwater plant
growth is darker.
Lake Michigan would be spotty with the used tires and bodies in
concrete overshoes showing up darker.
Marcus Schb.
Note : Mark is known to have offered his 'help' via email. Don't give
him your credit card number if he does so.
Some of my students did and they have come to regret it.
For information: Contact Chief Inspector Jan Greenberg - Amsterdam
Vreemdelingen Police.
dos
I-cable/NNTP-Posting-Host: 61.18.50.137
To Mark:
If you'll stop telling lies about me, I'll stop telling the truth about
you.
R F
> They *did* have
> one completely Kosher store on King's Highway,
Oy! Kings!
R F
I've seen them being made in many places. In classic New York
pizzerias they're all made right in front of you (but as time went on,
more and more places started using pre-made rolled pizza dough or
heated up pre-made slices of pizza). That doesn't mean I could go out
and duplicate the effort myself.
Then there are a few places where you can just go on taste.
Robert Bannister
> Robert Bannister <rob...@it.net.au> writes:
>
>
>>But surely wieners and hot dogs are made from pork, or at least
>>sawdust that has been near pork.
>
>
> Not those manufactured by Vienna, which is most sold in Chicago
> hot dog joints and vendors. They're all beef.
>
> Vienna Beef uses fresh beef (never pork, lamb or mutton),
> processed from healthy animals.
>
> http://www.viennabeef.com/faqs.htm
>
> Interestingly, they are not, these days, kosher
>
> Historically, kosher products have a flavor profile which
> duplicates Vienna's flavor. However, while Vienna Beef products
> are beef, they are not produced with koshered meat. Kosher refers
> to the ritual beef slaughter and the salting of the meat.
>
> ibid.
>
> They certainly used to be. I've seen pictures of the old plant, and
> signs on it claimed that the meat was kosher (in English and
> Yiddish).
>
Thanks. Interesting stuff. I have to admit I don't like beef sausages
much, but of course Richard, or rather RF, would say hot dogs are not
sausages anyway.
--
Rob Bannister
TheResilient
> >You mean there is no liquid in the Sundae you *eat*? What if the ice-
> >cream melts? Maybe, you drink it from the cup in the manner of
> >drinking coffee. But then you *are* drinking, are you not?
>
> When it melts you 'drink' it with the spoon!
That or you don't know what a spoon is used for.
Mark Brader
> [Mark Brader's response incorporated.]
Huh?
--
Mark Brader, Short words good; sesquipedalian verbalizations undesirable
Toronto, m...@vex.net -- after George Orwell
Mark Brader
>>> I watched an old Cary Grant movie the other night. There was a
(And an interesting one too. It showed a baseball game taking place
*on Halloween*, some 60 years ahead of the reality!)
>>> and then, as the scene changed, there was the caption: "And now
>>> back in the real New York..."....
>> Which movie? He was in _Arsenic and Old Lace_, which was supposed
>> to take place in Brooklyn Heights I think. A good movie, and good
>> adaptation of the play.
I've never seen the play, but its original production had one advantage
over the movie -- it actually *had* Boris Karloff playing the character
who "looked like Karloff".
> The very one. I enjoyed it, although I must have seen it at the cinema
> many years ago.
That would account for the misquotation, then. I may be slightly wrong
on the first few words, but I'm sure about the last part: that caption
actually reads "Meanwhile, across the river in the UNITED STATES PROPER".
(Emphasis in the original.)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "A secret proclamation? How unusual!"
m...@vex.net -- Arsenic and Old Lace
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Mark Brader
> I don't remember Lake Michigan looking turquoise, but the color of a
> body water to the observer is dependent on the depth and the bed.
It can also be dependent on the impurities in the water itself, of
course. River water in particular can easily be grayish or yellowish
brown, not only due to pollution but to dirt and dust stirred by
rapids. Or if you visit Tahquamenon Falls on the river of the same
name in northern Michigan, you'll see that the water is reddish brown
due to some substance naturally leaching from the ground there.
Lakes fed by glacial meltwater generally contain a form of rock dust
that gives them a distinctive grayish-green color.
I don't believe that any of these factors pertain to Lake Michigan,
though.
--
Mark Brader "... we still feel that color is hard
Toronto on the eyes for so long a picture ..."
m...@vex.net -- N.Y. Times review of GONE WITH THE WIND
R F
> The worst experience I had in NYC was a business trip with a business
> associate. We had two nights in Manhattan, and we each chose the
> venue for one of the evenings. On my choice, we went to Carnegie Hall
> and dinner at the Palm. On his, Chock Full O' Nuts and the Auto Show.
The old Chock Full O' Nuts coffeeshop chains were worth visiting back
in the day, C**p. They were an important part of the old culture. I'm
talking pre-Iran-Hostage-Crisis, at least. But they weren't places
known for their food.
> Carnegie Hall was cool.
Why, was the air conditioning on?
> >> The original proprietors are dead, and their kids are computer
> >> programmers and stock brokers.
> >
> >Why those particular occupational groups? Just curious. In New York,
> >stockbrokers are disproportionately Irish-American, for some reason.
>
> Just examples of how the younger generation goes into mainstream
> occupations and breaks out of the ethnic circle.
I was thinking about this, and I suppose "stockbroker" is the wrong
word. What I mean is the guys on the trading floor of the NYSE, and
the marketmaker traders on Nasdaq -- "stock traders", I guess. A very
Irish occupation in New York.
You think of "stockbroker" and "computer programmer" as mainstream
occupations? Hmm.
Tony Cooper
>Tony Cooper writes:
>> I don't remember Lake Michigan looking turquoise, but the color of a
>> body water to the observer is dependent on the depth and the bed.
>
>It can also be dependent on the impurities in the water itself, of
>course. River water in particular can easily be grayish or yellowish
>brown, not only due to pollution but to dirt and dust stirred by
>rapids. Or if you visit Tahquamenon Falls on the river of the same
>name in northern Michigan, you'll see that the water is reddish brown
>due to some substance naturally leaching from the ground there.
>Lakes fed by glacial meltwater generally contain a form of rock dust
>that gives them a distinctive grayish-green color.
>
>I don't believe that any of these factors pertain to Lake Michigan,
>though.
We might as well float up a Usage question ... is a river "a body of
water"?