You have the gall <===== where does gall come from?

[Hannelore VB]

Trying to find out where "gall" comes from, where one could "guess" that
it's either from "gall bladder" bitterness or from "gaul soldiers" as per
the Roman depiction of the naked fallen warrior.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gall

[Peter T. Daniels]

Look for "Medieval doctrine of the Four Humours." Gall = yellow bile.

It's sort of like the Eastern doctrine of "chi" ("qi"?) -- in a healthy
person the four humours are balanced.

If you have too much phlegm, you're phlegmatic;
if you have too much yellow bile, you're bilious;
if you have too much blood, you're sanguine;
if you have too much black bile, you're melancholic.

[Helen Lacedaemonian]

Yes, but this meaning of "gall" is different. Not a bitter substance provoking
ill temper, but bold, impudent behavior. Something akin to "chutzpah."

Best,
Helen

[Peter T. Daniels]

The difference between gall and chutzpah is probably a matter of point-of-view.

(One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and all that.)

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <7d7571de-2713-4404...@googlegroups.com>,

Actually, it's from the gall that is related to horses, a sore. Thus, an
annoyance or irritant.

The incumbent finds it galling that that upstart has the impudence to
challenge him.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Why do you think that?

Oak galls were an important source of ingredients for ink.

> The incumbent finds it galling that that upstart has the impudence to
> challenge him.

I.e., infuriating.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <0567f899-66ba-49dc...@googlegroups.com>,

I usually think of "unmitigated gall" when I come across that usage.

--
chrles

[David Kleinecke]

Leaving, of course, the problem of just how to mitigate a gall.

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <64d43464-d179-4d85...@googlegroups.com>,

Oxford American Dictionary

galling |?g?li ng |
adjective
annoying; humiliating : the loss was particularly galling.
DERIVATIVES
gallingly adverb
gall 2
noun
1 annoyance; irritation : he imagined Linda’s gall as she found herself
still married and not rich.
2 (esp. of a horse) a sore on the skin made by chafing.
verb [ trans. ]
1 make (someone) feel annoyed : he knew he was losing, and it galled him.
2 make sore by rubbing : the straps galled their shoulders.
ORIGIN Old English gealle [sore on a horse,] perhaps related to gall 1 ;
superseded in Middle English by forms from Middle Low German or Middle
Dutch.

[Mack A. Damia]

Origin and Etymology of gall
Middle English, from Old English gealla; akin to Greek chole, cholos
gall, wrath, Old English geolu yellow — more at yellow

(MW)

Greek terminology in the Iliad: "Cholos" means anger, wrath (gall).

[Dingbat]

On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 10:09:49 PM UTC+5:30, Hannelore VB wrote:
> Trying to find out where "gall" comes from,

First impression: Sounds bilious.

[Helen Lacedaemonian]

Interesting. Do you hear a difference between gall and chutzpah? I don't.
What about nerve, audacity, balls? I feel they can all be used admiringly or
with irritation--so I don't really see how this usage of "gall" can claim an
obvious derivation from the bitter humor or from the sore caused by chafing.
The observer might find the actor's gall to be galling, but such an observer
might find the actor's wealth and beauty to be equally galling.

Best,
Helen

[Peter T. Daniels]

Assuming that "gall 1" is the humour? If they insist that they're two different
words, Shirley oak galls belong here with the irritations and not there with
the bile? (I think oak galls are a fungus infection.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

Is "chutzpah" actually in active vocabularies outside Jewish areas? Is it
heard other than from stand-up comedians?

Chutzpah is grudgingly admired. Gall isn't. But they're otherwise pretty much
the same thing.

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <11307b0b-541a-4684...@googlegroups.com>,

Oak galls are caused by wasps. The wasps secrete chemicals when laying
eggs. The chemicals stimulate growth of the gall which surrounds the
eggs. An irritant, yes.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 20:57:49 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>Is "chutzpah" actually in active vocabularies outside Jewish areas? Is it
>heard other than from stand-up comedians?

My experience is not typical because I lived with two Jewish roommates
for two years and lived the Chicago area for several years. But,
"chutzpah" is in my active vocabulary of understood expressions. Not
in my active speaking vocabulary, though.

I don't have confidence in my ability to speak the word. I don't
think I pronounce it correctly. Certainly not like I've heard it
pronounced by Jews. I can't make it sound like they did.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Richard Tobin]

In article <gall-2016...@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>,
Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

>>You have the gall <===== where does gall come from?

> »gall« (from the liver gall) can mean »impudence« (a sense
> stemming from the United States). So I suppose it's this gall.
> »To have the gall to do something« dates back to at least 1936.

Certainly something of that kidney.

-- Richard

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 1:00:32 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 20:57:49 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> >Is "chutzpah" actually in active vocabularies outside Jewish areas? Is it
> >heard other than from stand-up comedians?
>
> My experience is not typical because I lived with two Jewish roommates
> for two years and lived the Chicago area for several years. But,
> "chutzpah" is in my active vocabulary of understood expressions. Not
> in my active speaking vocabulary, though.

That is to say, it is NOT in your "active vocabulary." Sheesh.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 01:00:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 20:57:49 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
><gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>Is "chutzpah" actually in active vocabularies outside Jewish areas? Is it
>>heard other than from stand-up comedians?
>
>My experience is not typical because I lived with two Jewish roommates
>for two years and lived the Chicago area for several years. But,
>"chutzpah" is in my active vocabulary of understood expressions. Not
>in my active speaking vocabulary, though.
>

The usual phrase for the "vocabulary of expressions that a person
understands but does not use" is "passive vocabulary".

A person's "active vocabulary" is the expressions the person actually
uses.

There may be a distinction between a person's passive vocabulary in
writing and in speech.

>I don't have confidence in my ability to speak the word. I don't
>think I pronounce it correctly. Certainly not like I've heard it
>pronounced by Jews. I can't make it sound like they did.

The word "chutzpah" might be restricted to a person's passive vocabulary
in the context of speech but be in their active vocabulary in writing.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/passive+vocabulary

passive vocabulary
n
(Linguistics) all the words, collectively, that a person can
understand. Compare active vocabulary
Collins English Dictionary

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/active+vocabulary

active vocabulary
n
(Linguistics) the total number of words a person uses in his own
speech and writing. Compare passive vocabulary
Collins English Dictionary

This lists four types of vocabulary:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocabulary#Types_of_vocabulary

2.1 Reading vocabulary
2.2 Listening vocabulary
2.3 Speaking vocabulary
2.4 Writing vocabulary

So a word such as "chutzpah" might be in someone's Reading, Listening
and Writing vocabularies but not in their Speaking vocabulary.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Charles Bishop]

In article <tei2rb153562oaqvi...@4ax.com>,

I'm the same, with the exception of having the roommates. I do think I
could pronounce it to a reasonable approximation though. I came to it
mostly through reading, but it was pronounced in several tv shows (and
radio) over the years.

charles, "your Honor, my client would request leniency as he is an
orphan"

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-08-15 05:00:30 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

> On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 20:57:49 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Is "chutzpah" actually in active vocabularies outside Jewish areas? Is it
>> heard other than from stand-up comedians?
>
> My experience is not typical because I lived with two Jewish roommates
> for two years and lived the Chicago area for several years. But,
> "chutzpah" is in my active vocabulary of understood expressions. Not
> in my active speaking vocabulary, though.

I have never had two Jewish roommates (or even one, though I once had a
Jewish girlfriend that I went to Israel with), but I would say that
"chutzpah" is widely understood by educated people even if they haven't
had that particular education.

>
> I don't have confidence in my ability to speak the word. I don't
> think I pronounce it correctly. Certainly not like I've heard it
> pronounced by Jews. I can't make it sound like they did.


--

athel

[David Kleinecke]

On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 8:57:32 AM UTC-7, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2016-08-15 05:00:30 +0000, Tony Cooper said:
>
> > On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 20:57:49 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> > <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Is "chutzpah" actually in active vocabularies outside Jewish areas? Is it
> >> heard other than from stand-up comedians?
> >
> > My experience is not typical because I lived with two Jewish roommates
> > for two years and lived the Chicago area for several years. But,
> > "chutzpah" is in my active vocabulary of understood expressions. Not
> > in my active speaking vocabulary, though.
>
> I have never had two Jewish roommates (or even one, though I once had a
> Jewish girlfriend that I went to Israel with), but I would say that
> "chutzpah" is widely understood by educated people even if they haven't
> had that particular education.

Nothing especially Jewish in my education but it did include
"chutzpah" (complete with the orphan illustration). It's not
a word I have much use for. Neither is gall. I cant think of
an occasion in my personal life in recent years where anybody's
behavior deserved either word. Public figures are a different
manner. I would call Trumps' antics chutzpah.

[Tak To]

On 8/14/2016 11:25 PM, Helen Lacedaemonian wrote:
> On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 11:24:46 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 2:11:58 PM UTC-4, Helen Lacedaemonian wrote:
>>> On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 11:01:15 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 12:39:49 PM UTC-4, Hannelore VB wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Trying to find out where "gall" comes from, where one could "guess" that
>>>>> it's either from "gall bladder" bitterness or from "gaul soldiers" as per
>>>>> the Roman depiction of the naked fallen warrior.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gall
>>>>
>>>> Look for "Medieval doctrine of the Four Humours." Gall = yellow bile.
>>>>
>>>> It's sort of like the Eastern doctrine of "chi" ("qi"?) -- in a healthy
>>>> person the four humours are balanced.
>>>>
>>>> If you have too much phlegm, you're phlegmatic;
>>>> if you have too much yellow bile, you're bilious;
>>>> if you have too much blood, you're sanguine;
>>>> if you have too much black bile, you're melancholic.
>>>
>>> Yes, but this meaning of "gall" is different. Not a bitter substance provoking
>>> ill temper, but bold, impudent behavior. Something akin to "chutzpah."
>>
>> The difference between gall and chutzpah is probably a matter of point-of-view.
>>
>> (One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and all that.)
>
> Interesting. Do you hear a difference between gall and chutzpah? I don't.
> What about nerve, audacity, balls? I feel they can all be used admiringly or
> with irritation--so I don't really see how this usage of "gall" can claim an
> obvious derivation from the bitter humor

Note: gall in Greek (kholē) is the yellow bile and not the
black (bitter) bile, which, confusingly enough, is secreted
by the gallbladder. I am not sure when this semantic shift
(and/or anatomical confusion) happened. Traditionally, the
temperament associated with the yellow bile is "choleric"
and that with the black bile is "melancholic".

> or from the sore caused by chafing.
> The observer might find the actor's gall to be galling, but such an observer
> might find the actor's wealth and beauty to be equally galling.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[Tak To]

On 8/14/2016 11:25 PM, Helen Lacedaemonian wrote:
> On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 11:24:46 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 2:11:58 PM UTC-4, Helen Lacedaemonian wrote:
>>> On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 11:01:15 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 12:39:49 PM UTC-4, Hannelore VB wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Trying to find out where "gall" comes from, where one could "guess" that
>>>>> it's either from "gall bladder" bitterness or from "gaul soldiers" as per
>>>>> the Roman depiction of the naked fallen warrior.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gall
>>>>
>>>> Look for "Medieval doctrine of the Four Humours." Gall = yellow bile.
>>>>
>>>> It's sort of like the Eastern doctrine of "chi" ("qi"?) -- in a healthy
>>>> person the four humours are balanced.
>>>>
>>>> If you have too much phlegm, you're phlegmatic;
>>>> if you have too much yellow bile, you're bilious;
>>>> if you have too much blood, you're sanguine;
>>>> if you have too much black bile, you're melancholic.
>>>
>>> Yes, but this meaning of "gall" is different. Not a bitter substance provoking
>>> ill temper, but bold, impudent behavior. Something akin to "chutzpah."
>>
>> The difference between gall and chutzpah is probably a matter of point-of-view.
>>
>> (One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and all that.)
>
> Interesting. Do you hear a difference between gall and chutzpah? I don't.
> What about nerve, audacity, balls? I feel they can all be used admiringly or

> with irritation [...]

My impression of AmE usage is that chutzpah is more about challenging
social convention whereas gall is more about challenging authority.
Chutzpah is more genteel and gall is more contentious. The latter is
closer to effrontery.

[Helen Lacedaemonian]

Yes, I have been thinking about this, and I have concluded (as you and others
have) that "gall" is closer to "effrontery." I don't agree with your other observations,
though. Chutzpah can confront authority as well as convention. And if it seems
genteel (cf. "gentile") that's simply because someone is pronouncing it wrong!

Best,
Helen