to step down
Donna Richoux
two days ago, and there appeared to be a little British-American English
tangle. The reporters said, "It has been NATO policy not to target
individual leaders, but the British have said that Milosevic must step
down! How can you..." etc, etc.
Albright sighed, said something about "garbled" and "two nations divided
by a common language" and that what the British had really meant was
that Milosevic must "back down."
I would like to get just a little clearer on this. First, is "step down"
ever used to mean "resign" in the UK? Second, what else is it used for -
to back down? To de-escalate?
(I've also been thinking of starting a thread on the matter that people
forced out of their homes at gunpoint shouldn't be called "refugees" --
deportees, the expelled, evictees, something that implies force was
used.)
Can follow-ups please stick to language matters and not stray into
personal and political declarations? Tempting though it may be.
Thanks --- Donna Richoux
Catweazle
Donna Richoux wrote in message
<1dqnvgu.fp...@p116.hlm.euronet.nl>...
I would suggest the following:
'step down' = resign
If there is a difference, it may be that one tends to resign on a matter of
principle or as a protest while one steps down due to scandal or to make way
for a younger replacement.
'back down' = retreat from a position or claim
Catweazle
--------------------------------------------------------
"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
Walt Whitman
K. Edgcombe
Donna Richoux <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote:
>I was watching a news conference with Madeleine Albright on CNN about
>two days ago, and there appeared to be a little British-American English
>tangle. The reporters said, "It has been NATO policy not to target
>individual leaders, but the British have said that Milosevic must step
>down! How can you..." etc, etc.
>
>Albright sighed, said something about "garbled" and "two nations divided
>by a common language" and that what the British had really meant was
>that Milosevic must "back down."
>
>I would like to get just a little clearer on this. First, is "step down"
>ever used to mean "resign" in the UK? Second, what else is it used for -
>to back down? To de-escalate?
To me, "step down" definitely means "resign", and "back down" means "moderate
one's terms, stop being so assertive, take back what one has said".
I think this is your understanding too. If a British spokesman said he should
"step down", they didn't mean de-escalate, whatever Ms Albright says they
meant.
Katy
Chris Stokes
tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
> I would like to get just a little clearer on this. First, is "step down"
> ever used to mean "resign" in the UK? Second, what else is it used for -
> to back down? To de-escalate?
Almost always. I would _never_ say 'step down' if I meant merely draw back,
desist, or back down (assuming 'back down' means the same on either side of
the pond). If the reporter's sentence is accurate, the meaning is plain that
Blur had insisted that Milosevic step down _from power_. Either Allbright is
overconfident of her understanding of cross-pond linguistic differences or
she was papering over a serious political difference by sleight of hand. My
money's on the latter. (NODE's definition is 'withdraw or resign from an
important position or office'; I would understand 'position' here to be
roughly synonymous with 'post' and not to cover what might be called the
Serbian 'position' in Kosova.)
The only other figurative meaning in British English that I'm aware of is a
technical one. Transformers (specifically step-down transformers) are used to
step down voltages in electrical and electronic engineering.
Chris
--
A language is a dialect that has an army and a navy. (Max Weinreich)
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Laura F Spira
>
> I was watching a news conference with Madeleine Albright on CNN about
> two days ago, and there appeared to be a little British-American English
> tangle. The reporters said, "It has been NATO policy not to target
> individual leaders, but the British have said that Milosevic must step
> down! How can you..." etc, etc.
>
> Albright sighed, said something about "garbled" and "two nations divided
> by a common language" and that what the British had really meant was
> that Milosevic must "back down."
>
> ever used to mean "resign" in the UK? Second, what else is it used for -
> to back down? To de-escalate?
>
> forced out of their homes at gunpoint shouldn't be called "refugees" --
> deportees, the expelled, evictees, something that implies force was
> used.)
>
> Can follow-ups please stick to language matters and not stray into
> personal and political declarations? Tempting though it may be.
>
> Thanks --- Donna Richoux
My boss has just 'stepped down' from her post, as she described the
process, but is staying on in the institution in another capacity. To
me, 'step down' has some subtle sense of courteously giving way, while
still being in control of the process. 'Backing down' suggests the
unsuccessful outcome of a confrontation. 'Resign' could have either
connotation - you might resign as a result of giving way to pressure or,
more proactively, to make a point of principle - or in a fit of pique.
--
Laura F Spira
Ross Howard
>whatever Ms Albright says they
>meant.
Since Albright is her married name, isn't "Ms" out of place here? Do
you also say Ms. Thatcher or Ms. Reagan?
Ross Howard
-----------
While one person's comments maybe one person's treasure,
another person's comments maybe another person's garbage.
-- The Bun
K. Edgcombe
Ross Howard <rho...@mx3.redestb.es> wrote:
>On 22 Apr 1999 11:21:48 GMT, ke...@cus.cam.ac.uk (K. Edgcombe) wrote:
>
>>whatever Ms Albright says they
>>meant.
>
>Since Albright is her married name, isn't "Ms" out of place here? Do
>you also say Ms. Thatcher or Ms. Reagan?
Hello, Ross, glad you're back.
I was simply ducking out of the fact that I didn't know whether she was married
or not. However, I didn't think Ms was restricted to use with one's maiden name.
I use it, when I'm feeling bloody-minded about it not being people's business
whether I'm married or not, but I use it with my married name because as far as
I'm concerned that *is* my name.
I don't habitually use it for other people unless either I don't know
whether they're married, or they have indicated in some way that that is their
preferred mode of address. So I would say "Mrs Thatcher" and "Mrs Reagan".
Actually I never say "Ms" if I can possibly help it, but I do write it.
Katy
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
Howard) wrote:
>On 22 Apr 1999 11:21:48 GMT, ke...@cus.cam.ac.uk (K. Edgcombe) wrote:
>
>>whatever Ms Albright says they
>>meant.
>
>Since Albright is her married name, isn't "Ms" out of place here? Do
>you also say Ms. Thatcher or Ms. Reagan?
>
>Ross Howard
If you do not want a thick ear, my lad, it's Lady Thatcher and to
blazes with the common touch.
Donna Richoux
> Since Albright is her married name, isn't "Ms" out of place here? Do
> you also say Ms. Thatcher or Ms. Reagan?
I'm really surprised at this question. I thought everybody grasped the
basic point that "Ms." can be applied to any woman regardless of her
marital status, the way that "Mr." applies to any man regardless of his
marital status. (Oh, well, maybe not rulers and popes and such.)
This is independent of whether you like the term, use it yourself, etc.
I suppose you thought that Ms. is only used by single women who don't
want to be called Miss, and divorced women who no longer want to be
called Mrs. Not so. Oh, and married women like myself who use different
last names than their husbands.
Best --- Donna Richoux
Truly Donovan
wrote:
>On 22 Apr 1999 11:21:48 GMT, ke...@cus.cam.ac.uk (K. Edgcombe) wrote:
>
>>whatever Ms Albright says they
>>meant.
>
>Since Albright is her married name, isn't "Ms" out of place here?
Have you really misunderstood the use of "Ms" so completely, or is
this a troll?
--
Truly Donovan
reply to truly at lunemere dot com
N.Mitchum
-----
> To me, "step down" definitely means "resign", and "back down" means "moderate
> one's terms, stop being so assertive, take back what one has said".
> I think this is your understanding too. If a British spokesman said he should
> meant.
>.....
"Step down" by itself means "resign" to me as well, but it's still
conceivable that the context could permit a "de-escalate"
definition. If the spokesman had been describing Milosovic as
having "stepped up" his campaing against Kosovo, it's possible he
could have said that he must now step down that campaign. Not too
likely, but possible all the same.
----NM
R J Valentine
] On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:20:29 GMT, rho...@mx3.redestb.es (Ross Howard)
] wrote:
]
]>On 22 Apr 1999 11:21:48 GMT, ke...@cus.cam.ac.uk (K. Edgcombe) wrote:
]>
]>>whatever Ms Albright says they
]>>meant.
]>
]>Since Albright is her married name, isn't "Ms" out of place here?
]
] Have you really misunderstood the use of "Ms" so completely, or is
] this a troll?
You may be stuck in the eighties. "Ms." has come pretty much full circle
from being used the way "Miss" used to be used (which is to say, with a
woman's surname, regardless of her marital status) to how "Miss" was used
at about the time that preview issue of _Ms._ was published as an insert
in _New York Magazine_ (which is to say, with a single woman's surname,
regardless of her wish to conceal her marital status).
I've seen plenty of forms with only the three choices: "Mr.", "Mrs.", and
"Ms." The practice in a number of schools is to call married women
teachers "Mrs." (with their surname) and single women teachers "Ms." (with
their surname). As a matter of English usage, "Ms." means "Miss".
It may be time for another title shift. How about we award a doctorate
with every driver's license.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@clark.net>
Drgnwng
>As a matter of English usage, "Ms." means "Miss".
In the US, "Ms." still refers to a woman of unspecified marrital status. This
has been its meaning from the beginning of the use of the term in the US.
Forms usually include both "Mrs." and "Ms." as options because some women
prefer to indicate their marital status, not because "Ms." means "Miss". Women
who wish to specify that they are unmarried still use "Miss".
tas
Drgnwng
R J Valentine
] In article <30TT2.357$qg4....@dfw-read.news.verio.net>, R wrote:
]>As a matter of English usage, "Ms." means "Miss".
]
] In the US, "Ms." still refers to a woman of unspecified marrital status. This
] has been its meaning from the beginning of the use of the term in the US.
Same with "Miss".
] Forms usually include both "Mrs." and "Ms." as options because some women
] prefer to indicate their marital status, not because "Ms." means "Miss". Women
] who wish to specify that they are unmarried still use "Miss".
Not if there's no "Miss" box to check, they don't.
Too bad the rest of my text was snipped, because it explained all that.
Drgnwng
>] In the US, "Ms." still refers to a woman of unspecified marrital status.
This
>] has been its meaning from the beginning of the use of the term in the US.
>
>Same with "Miss".
According to every usage I see of "Miss", and according to every American
dictionary I have, "Miss" refers ONLY to an unmarried woman. Therefore, it is
not interchangeable with "Ms.", which (by the same examples and references)
means ONLY "a woman of unspecified marital status".
>] Forms usually include both "Mrs." and "Ms." as options because some women
>] prefer to indicate their marital status, not because "Ms." means "Miss".
Women
>] who wish to specify that they are unmarried still use "Miss".
>
>Not if there's no "Miss" box to check, they don't.
>
>Too bad the rest of my text was snipped, because it explained all that.
Yes, your message referred specifically to forms offering only the options of
"Mr.", "Mrs.", and "Ms." My apologies for not starting a new paragraph with my
last sentence, which extended my comments beyond just the forms you mentioned.
I have seen forms that listed all four options, as well as forms that list only
the three.
In any case, "Ms." does not mean "an unmarried woman" or "Miss". It means that
you are not given the information of whether the woman is married or not. That
was my point. I apologize for not making that clear in my previous message.
(I also apologize that AOL burped and sent my previous message twice.)
tas
A. Farrell
>
> In article <hVTT2.358$qg4....@dfw-read.news.verio.net>, R wrote:
>
> >] In the US, "Ms." still refers to a woman of unspecified marrital status.
> This
> >] has been its meaning from the beginning of the use of the term in the US.
> >
> >Same with "Miss".
>
> According to every usage I see of "Miss", and according to every American
> dictionary I have, "Miss" refers ONLY to an unmarried woman. Therefore, it is
> not interchangeable with "Ms.", which (by the same examples and references)
> means ONLY "a woman of unspecified marital status".
There is a form, still current I believe in the USA, whereby a woman
with a professional name -- say, an actress -- will be politely addresed
as "miss", whether married or not. "You're on in five minutes Miss
Monroe!" sounds so much better, does it not, than "Ya got five, Mrs
Miller!"
AF.
AF.
R J Valentine
] In article <hVTT2.358$qg4....@dfw-read.news.verio.net>, R wrote:
]
]>] In the US, "Ms." still refers to a woman of unspecified marrital status. This
]>] has been its meaning from the beginning of the use of the term in the US.
]>
]>Same with "Miss".
]
] According to every usage I see of "Miss", and according to every American
] dictionary I have, "Miss" refers ONLY to an unmarried woman. Therefore, it is
] not interchangeable with "Ms.", which (by the same examples and references)
] means ONLY "a woman of unspecified marital status".
Nevertheless.
Even OED isn't much help in giving merely "= Mrs." as one of the meanings
of "Miss", because the examples are unconvincing. But alt.usage.english
wouldn't be worth much if it just parroted the contents of dictionaries.
If you don't want to take my word for it, you could ask a _really_ old
person or check _Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior_
by Judith Martin (ISBN 0-689-11247-5) from 1982, which notes on page 75
that in business correspondence a name of the form "Mrs." followed by a
woman's given name and surname "would be incorrect" and on page 565 that
"Miss is preferable to Mrs. in this situation, as it was increasingly
being used as an all-inclusive business term before Ms. came along."
Wherever all the married women are using "Mrs.", the secret is out about
all those people using "Ms." Stop by a school and check the faculty list
in the main lobby.
]>] Forms usually include both "Mrs." and "Ms." as options because some women
]>] prefer to indicate their marital status, not because "Ms." means "Miss".
] Women
]>] who wish to specify that they are unmarried still use "Miss".
]>
]>Not if there's no "Miss" box to check, they don't.
]>
]>Too bad the rest of my text was snipped, because it explained all that.
]
] Yes, your message referred specifically to forms offering only the options of
] "Mr.", "Mrs.", and "Ms." My apologies for not starting a new paragraph with my
] last sentence, which extended my comments beyond just the forms you mentioned.
] I have seen forms that listed all four options, as well as forms that list only
] the three.
And there was indeed a time period when what you bring up now (all four
options) was standard, just as before that the classic three options were
the standard way of giving choices. I'll give you that right away; no
argument there. But we have moved now all the way to the nineties, where
it is becoming increasingly true that forms omit the now little-used
"Miss". And that completes the circle I mentioned in my original reply.
"Ms." means what "Miss" used to mean.
] In any case, "Ms." does not mean "an unmarried woman" or "Miss". It means that
] you are not given the information of whether the woman is married or not. That
] was my point. I apologize for not making that clear in my previous message.
There is no question that "Ms." *can* be used to refer to women whose
marital status is unknown or irrelevant (unless they have requested a
different form of address). It has the advantage of being the only way of
doing so that is both correct and reasonably current, though "Miss" filled
that function nicely before "Ms." arrived. About the only time we hear
the "Miss" usage nowadays for a married woman is when a great actress is
introduced on a talk show. The point was clear enough, but it was an
eighties point. "Miss" has gone the way of "Master" for most purposes.
"Ms." now has all the advantages and disadvantages that "Miss" used to
have. Look for a new title on the horizon.
] (I also apologize that AOL burped and sent my previous message twice.)
That'll happen. Cancel messages will come in time.
Cheryl L Perkins
: Drgnwng <drg...@aol.comtas> wrote:
: ] In article <30TT2.357$qg4....@dfw-read.news.verio.net>, R wrote:
: ]>As a matter of English usage, "Ms." means "Miss".
: ]
: ] In the US, "Ms." still refers to a woman of unspecified marrital status. This
: ] has been its meaning from the beginning of the use of the term in the US.
: Same with "Miss".
I've never seen "Miss" used to refer to a woman of unspecified marital
status. It always is used for an unmarried woman (or young girl).
Ms. doesn't imply anything about the marital status of the lady. A Miss is
unmarried, and a Mrs. is or was at one time married.
Cheryl
--
Cheryl Perkins
cper...@stemnet.nf.ca
Raymot
>I've never seen "Miss" used to refer to a woman of unspecified marital
>status. It always is used for an unmarried woman (or young girl).
>
>Ms. doesn't imply anything about the marital status of the lady. A Miss is
>unmarried, and a Mrs. is or was at one time married.
>
>Cheryl
>--
>Cheryl Perkins
>cper...@stemnet.nf.ca
That's the way it still works in Oz too, despite
R J Valentine's campaign.
The primary connotation of Ms. is the same as it was
last decade, regardless of how many boxes some printer
puts on his forms.
Raymot
======
Brisbane, Australia
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
Ross Howard
wrote:
>Ross Howard <rho...@mx3.redestb.es> wrote:
>
>> Since Albright is her married name, isn't "Ms" out of place here? Do
>> you also say Ms. Thatcher or Ms. Reagan?
>
>I'm really surprised at this question. I thought everybody grasped the
>basic point that "Ms." can be applied to any woman regardless of her
>marital status, the way that "Mr." applies to any man regardless of his
>marital status. (Oh, well, maybe not rulers and popes and such.)
Ah, but men, upon marriage, don't change their surnames to those of
their wives. Nor do they, as Ms Albright does, persist in using them
in an age when doing so is no longer socially necessary. That's why we
have "Ms Nancy Davis" but "Mrs Nancy Reagan", and "Ms Margaret
Roberts" but "Mrs Margaret Thatcher" -- and that's why "Ms Clinton"
invariably refers to Chelsea, rather than to Hillary (who could be "Ms
Rodham" or "Mrs Clinton"; for some reason, the latter form appears to
be the preferred one).
>This is independent of whether you like the term, use it yourself, etc.
What's that got to do with it? This is about *coherent* usage, not
personal bugbears (which, in this case, I actually don't have).
>I suppose you thought that Ms. is only used by single women who don't
>want to be called Miss, and divorced women who no longer want to be
>called Mrs.
Why did you suppose that? Since the lady/woman/person in question has
gone to some effort to disguise her disturbingly Captain Bobbish
origins by marrying one of those fellowship fellows and take advantage
of the free all-American surname that came with him, why shouldn't she
also acknowledge the accompanying "Mrs"? She should therefore be
addressed as "Mrs Albright" or "Ms Original-Czech-Surname". Or aren't
two choices enough?
ObNothinginparticular: Why are so many (OK, three) US Secretaries of
State and National Security Advisers first-generation eastern-European
immigrants? Henry the K, Big Zbig, and now the Mighty Ms Mad. . . .
Ross Howard
<afar...@trump.net.au> wrote:
>There is a form, still current I believe in the USA, whereby a woman
>with a professional name -- say, an actress -- will be politely addresed
>as "miss", whether married or not. "You're on in five minutes Miss
>Monroe!" sounds so much better, does it not, than "Ya got five, Mrs
>Miller!"
Inadvertently (or perhaps not), AF has put his finger on the whole
question -- Using "Ms" before an optionally maintained married surname
is inconsistent.
Some people seem to have assumed that I mistakenly believe that "Ms"
is an equivalent of "Miss". I don't. I believe it is a construct
construed to equalise the situation between men and women when it
comes to the use of titles and surnames. Since women now have the
option -- an option millions now choose to use -- of not changing
their surnames after they get married, this, combined with the use of
"Ms" to offer no clues as to their marital status, achieves the
desired equilibrium. But those women who persist in using their
husband's surname have opted out of that. And part of that opting out
is the marital-status marker "Mrs".
"Ms. Albright" is as confused and inconsistent a combination as "Ms.
Cruise" would be if reffering to Nicole Kidman.
I don't object to her "Ms". I dig that "Ms". I just assumed that it
was standard practice to address married women who *choose* to
publicise their marital status by using their husband's surnames (the
key to all this) as "Mrs".
A. Farrell
>
> On Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:37:44 +1000, "A. Farrell"
> <afar...@trump.net.au> wrote:
>
> >There is a form, still current I believe in the USA, whereby a woman
> >with a professional name -- say, an actress -- will be politely addresed
> >as "miss", whether married or not. "You're on in five minutes Miss
> >Monroe!" sounds so much better, does it not, than "Ya got five, Mrs
> >Miller!"
>
> Inadvertently (or perhaps not), AF has put his finger on the whole
> question -- Using "Ms" before an optionally maintained married surname
> is inconsistent.
[Necessary snipping of excellent comment]
> "Ms. Albright" is as confused and inconsistent a combination as "Ms.
> Cruise" would be if reffering to Nicole Kidman.
>
> I don't object to her "Ms". I dig that "Ms". I just assumed that it
> was standard practice to address married women who *choose* to
> publicise their marital status by using their husband's surnames (the
> key to all this) as "Mrs".
The point to me was always the question of "equality": is a woman to be
in the same situation as any man so far as courtesy titles are
concerned? The answer is, that "Ms" allows this, if she so chooses.
Here follows a commonplace, but I'll say it anyway: a married woman is
"Mrs Joe Bloggs" *always*, until the death of her husband, when she
becomes "Mrs Cynthia Bloggs". "Miss Cynthia Bloggs" is an unmarried
woman (of indeterminate age), *or* perhaps a married (or unmarried for
that matter) woman using a professional name. "Ms Cynthia Bloggs" may be
married, unmarried or living in any number of permutations of what I
believe are these days called "bona fide domestic circumstances", and
she is in exactly the same situation as any man. She is addressed by her
own name, to which is prefixed a courtesy title.
It strikes me as retrograde for a married woman to be known by her
husband's surname, to which has been appended the title "Ms". However,
as Virginia said: "I don't care what people do; just so long as they
don't frighten the horses."
AF.
nancy g.
>> In the US, "Ms." still refers to a woman of unspecified
>> marrital status. This has been its meaning from the beginning
>> of the use of the term in the US.
> Same with "Miss".
Do you really mean you think "Miss" was or is used to mean a woman
whose marital status is unknown? That's not the way I have *ever*
heard the word used, and I've been around long enough to remember
the days when "Miss/Mrs." was the only choice offered to women.
"Mrs." always indicated a married woman, and "Miss" always indicated
an unmarried one.
I'm currently single and use Ms. when forced to choose a title,
although I prefer none. I still use my ex's name so it will be
the same as that of my children, but I *certainly* don't feel that
using "Mrs." would be appropriate. After my upcoming marriage
(for very long values of "upcoming", that is) I'll become Mrs. again,
although the opinion of most of my friends is that I'm being quaint
and old-fashioned by doing so. But I haven't been a "Miss" since
the days before my first wedding, and I would never be one again.
If a form offers only "Mrs." and "Ms." as choices for women to
check off, that form is incorrect. There should either be three
options for women or just one.
Donna Richoux
>
> Ah, but men, upon marriage, don't change their surnames to those of
> their wives. Nor do they, as Ms Albright does, persist in using them
> in an age when doing so is no longer socially necessary.
Madeleine Albright is -- well, not elderly, but right on the edge of
*old.* Surely she changed her name back in the days when it was (nearly)
unquestioned that women did so. I can think of no one who changed their
name *back* except on the occasion of divorce. So why jump on her for
using the name that she has for many decades?
>That's why we
> have "Ms Nancy Davis" but "Mrs Nancy Reagan", and "Ms Margaret
> Roberts" but "Mrs Margaret Thatcher" -- and that's why "Ms Clinton"
> invariably refers to Chelsea, rather than to Hillary (who could be "Ms
> Rodham" or "Mrs Clinton"; for some reason, the latter form appears to
> be the preferred one).
I haven't seen the same consistency of usage that you have. Different
journalistic standards, probably. Maybe someone who owns the Chicago
Manual of Style will tell us what their current recommendations are
about Ms.
> >This is independent of whether you like the term, use it yourself, etc.
>
> What's that got to do with it? This is about *coherent* usage, not
> personal bugbears (which, in this case, I actually don't have).
>
> >I suppose you thought that Ms. is only used by single women who don't
> >want to be called Miss, and divorced women who no longer want to be
> >called Mrs.
>
> Why did you suppose that?
Oh, vague memories of discussions on this topic with unremembered
persons. I am glad to know these concerns do not apply to you.
>Since the lady/woman/person in question has
> gone to some effort to disguise her disturbingly Captain Bobbish
> origins
I don't know what that means, and I'm not sure I want to know. There was
a biography of her in a recent New Yorker, I can look up some facts if
you think they are murky.
>by marrying one of those fellowship fellows and take advantage
> of the free all-American surname that came with him,
Good Lord, you have reason to believe she married her husband for
nefarious reasons instead of the usual fall-in-love-and-start-a-family
stuff?
>why shouldn't she
> also acknowledge the accompanying "Mrs"? She should therefore be
> addressed as "Mrs Albright" or "Ms Original-Czech-Surname". Or aren't
> two choices enough?
>
> ObNothinginparticular: Why are so many (OK, three) US Secretaries of
> State and National Security Advisers first-generation eastern-European
> immigrants? Henry the K, Big Zbig, and now the Mighty Ms Mad. . . .
A guess -- people who grow up in (and flee from) boundary regions,
caught between superpowers, are unusually interested in the subjects of
regions, powers, etc?
Of course, in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave, an Eastern
European immigrant can grow up to be Secretary of State, whereas in --
no, I'd better not pursue that line any further, should I?
Well, anyway, Ross, I'm glad you're back.
Best --- Donna Richoux
Frances Kemmish
>
> On Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:37:44 +1000, "A. Farrell"
> <afar...@trump.net.au> wrote:
>
> >There is a form, still current I believe in the USA, whereby a woman
> >with a professional name -- say, an actress -- will be politely addresed
> >as "miss", whether married or not. "You're on in five minutes Miss
> >Monroe!" sounds so much better, does it not, than "Ya got five, Mrs
> >Miller!"
>
> Inadvertently (or perhaps not), AF has put his finger on the whole
> question -- Using "Ms" before an optionally maintained married surname
> is inconsistent.
>
> is an equivalent of "Miss". I don't. I believe it is a construct
> construed to equalise the situation between men and women when it
> comes to the use of titles and surnames. Since women now have the
> option -- an option millions now choose to use -- of not changing
> their surnames after they get married, this, combined with the use of
> "Ms" to offer no clues as to their marital status, achieves the
> desired equilibrium. But those women who persist in using their
> husband's surname have opted out of that. And part of that opting out
> is the marital-status marker "Mrs".
>
> Cruise" would be if reffering to Nicole Kidman.
>
> I don't object to her "Ms". I dig that "Ms". I just assumed that it
> was standard practice to address married women who *choose* to
> publicise their marital status by using their husband's surnames (the
> key to all this) as "Mrs".
>
I have been married for twenty-eight years. During that time, I have
been known as Frances Kemmish. I have even built a (albeit very
insignificant) professional reputation using that name. I have a
publication in print using that name. I think that I have reason to
regard it now as my name.
Most of the people with whom I deal professionally have no idea whether
or not I am married. Hardly any of them have ever met my husband, and so
very few of my colleagues know whether or not "Kemmish" is my husband's
name or my maiden name. In what way, then, does my use of that name
publicise my marital status?
If I were to divorce my husband, do you think that I should instantly
abandon the name by which I have been known for almost all my adult life
and take up a name which would be unknown to any of my friends,
acquaintances and colleagues. I think not.
When the archaeologist, Jacquetta Hawkes divorced her husband,
Christopher Hawkes, and married J. B. Priestley, she continued to be
known as Jaquetta Hawkes; she did not return to her maiden name, nor did
she use the style "Mrs Priestley". I think, in fact, that I heard her
introduced as "Miss Hawkes" when I heard her speak, back in the sixties,
before the title "Ms" had any currency.
The title "Ms" is maritally neutral. By using it, I declare nothing
about my marital status, nor about the date at which I started to use my
current surname. When my marital status is irrelevant I use "Ms". There
is nothing confused or inconsistent about that.
Fran
nancy g.
>> There is a form, still current I believe in the USA, whereby a woman
>> with a professional name -- say, an actress -- will be politely addresed
>> as "miss", whether married or not. "You're on in five minutes Miss
>> Monroe!" sounds so much better, does it not, than "Ya got five, Mrs
>> Miller!"
I'd guess that, in the example above, it would be difficult for the
casual listener to distinguish between "Five minutes, Miss Monroe" and
"Five minutes, Ms. Monroe". And since the lovely lady in question was
indeed married at the time but was using a name that had been hers since
her single days, "Ms." would be the only really *accurate* title for her.
> Inadvertently (or perhaps not), AF has put his finger on the whole
> question -- Using "Ms" before an optionally maintained married surname
> is inconsistent.
I don't think so at all. Regardless of whether a woman chooses to
use the surname that she was born with, one she invented, or one that
her husband was born with, her choice is entirely independent of whether
or not she wishes to advertise her marital status to the world at large.
> Some people seem to have assumed that I mistakenly believe that "Ms"
> is an equivalent of "Miss". I don't. I believe it is a construct
> construed to equalise the situation between men and women when it
> comes to the use of titles and surnames.
And that is absolutely correct, according to my understanding of the
word and the way I've always used it.
> Since women now have the option -- an option millions now choose
> to use -- of not changing their surnames after they get married,
> this, combined with the use of "Ms" to offer no clues as to their
> marital status, achieves the desired equilibrium. But those women
> who persist in using their husband's surname have opted out of that.
I completely disagree. You act as if it's a package deal -- that if
you choose to use your husband's surname, you also choose to give up
the right to use "Ms." as your title. It doesn't work that way.
Many women choose to change their name when they get married as a
simple matter of convenience, especially if they plan to have children
together, so that all members of the family have the same last name.
Once this choice has been made, however, the name is no longer just
the husband's name, but the wife's as well. Since it is now her OWN
name, just as much as her birth name was, she has *exactly* the same
ability to choose for herself what title she will use in front of it.
The only difference is that now, instead of deciding between "Miss"
and "Ms.", she will decide between "Mrs." and "Ms.".
> "Ms. Albright" is as confused and inconsistent a combination as
> "Ms. Cruise" would be if reffering to Nicole Kidman.
Saying "Ms. Albright" does not confuse me and does not seem inconsistent
to me, since she is a woman who uses the name Albright. Saying "Ms. Cruise"
to refer to Nicole Kidman, on the other hand, would be both of the above,
since the name she has chosen to use is Kidman, not Cruise.
> I don't object to her "Ms". I dig that "Ms". I just assumed that it
> was standard practice to address married women who *choose* to
> publicise their marital status by using their husband's surnames
> (the key to all this) as "Mrs".
Sorry, but that assumption was incorrect. Choosing to use one's
husband's name is not the same thing as choosing to publicize one's
marital status, unless the public is aware that (a) the woman's name
used to be different; (b) she is currently involved in a relationship
with a man; and (c) the man in the relationship has the same name as
the one she is now using.
Suppose I used to be known as Mary Jones but decided to start using
my husband's name when I married him. If I meet you and introduce
myself as Mary Smith, or as Ms. Smith, that does not tell you a thing
about my marital status. If I introduce myself as "Mrs. Smith",
on the other hand, that is what will let you determine whether or
not I'm married. It's her title alone that can indicate a woman's
marital status if she wishes to publicize it, and not the name that
follows the title.
nancy g.
> Here follows a commonplace, but I'll say it anyway: a married woman
> is "Mrs Joe Bloggs" *always*, until the death of her husband, when she
> becomes "Mrs Cynthia Bloggs".
This has *never* been correct, even in those days before there was
any such option as "Ms."
In the good old days, a woman who married became "Mrs. Joe Bloggs"
forever, until the day she died, even if that day came AFTER the death
of her husband. The only time she could ever become "Mrs. Cynthia Bloggs"
would be in the extremely rare event that she divorced the esteemed
Mr. Bloggs, usually due to some outrageous action on his part such as
desertion or adultery.
> "Miss Cynthia Bloggs" is an unmarried woman (of indeterminate age)
True. And "Bloggs" in this case would be the name she was born with.
> "Ms Cynthia Bloggs" may be married, unmarried or living in any number
> of permutations of what I believe are these days called "bona fide
> domestic circumstances", and she is in exactly the same situation
> as any man. She is addressed by her own name, to which is prefixed
> a courtesy title.
Correct, assuming that one of the permutations above is that she used to
be known as "Cynthia Flugle" until she married the man who is known as
"Joe Bloggs", at which point she changed her name to "Cynthia Bloggs".
> It strikes me as retrograde for a married woman to be known by her
> husband's surname, to which has been appended the title "Ms".
Hmmmm. I looked up "retrograde" and found one definition to be
"moving, occurring, or performed in a backward direction or opposite
to the usual direction" which I have to admit describes me rather
accurately much of the time; another definition was "contrary to the
normal order", which may or may not be true, depending on how one
defines "normal"; and a third meaning, "tending toward or resulting
in a worse or previous state", which I don't think applies at all.
In any event, retrograde or not, this is a common use of the title,
at least among my circle of friends. I'm willing to accept that this
may be one of those terms with very distinct regional differences.
Speaking of regional differences, is there a reason why you do not
use the period after "Ms." and "Mrs."? Do you use one after "Mr."?
Skitt
nancy g. <nan...@tiac.net> wrote in message
news:372085DA...@tiac.net...
> Speaking of regional differences, is there a reason why you do not
> use the period after "Ms." and "Mrs."? Do you use one after "Mr."?
From the FAQ:
Fowler recommends putting a "." only after abbreviations that do
not include the last letter of the word they're abbreviating, e.g.,
"Capt." for captain but "Cpl" for corporal. In some English-
speaking countries, many people follow this rule, but not in the
U.S., where "Mr." and "Dr." prevail.
--
Skitt http://i.am/skitt/
Central Florida CAUTION: My veracity is under limited warranty
Ross Howard
<arc...@iconn.net> wrote:
[snip much not-getting-the-point]
>The title "Ms" is maritally neutral. By using it, I declare nothing
>about my marital status, nor about the date at which I started to use my
>current surname. When my marital status is irrelevant I use "Ms". There
>is nothing confused or inconsistent about that.
But everybody knows that she is called Albright not because it's a
traditional Czech surname, but because she *married* into one of one
of America's leading Power Families.
Your own practice is irrelevant, because, with all due respect,
"Kemmesh" just doesn't flip the same levers as "Albright" in the
context of a famously Czech-born female politician.
My point, which nobody except AF and, interestingly, the person who
set me off on this in the first place (bless yer, Katy), seems to have
cottoned onto is that "Ms Albright" is socially -- and even
equal-opportunitiesly -- an utterly pointless contrivance.
So, I maintain my original point: It should be either Mrs Albright or
-- if she doesn't want people to be aware of her marital status, which
is obviously not the case, given her persistence in using hubby's
surname on the one hand and the celebrity of her marriage into the
Fellowship Family on the other -- "Ms. Czech-Surname". Playing mix and
match willy-nilly isn't going to get anybody anywhere.
Ross Howard
wrote:
>> Inadvertently (or perhaps not), AF has put his finger on the whole
>> question -- Using "Ms" before an optionally maintained married surname
>> is inconsistent.
>I don't think so at all. Regardless of whether a woman chooses to
>use the surname that she was born with, one she invented, or one that
>her husband was born with, her choice is entirely independent of whether
>or not she wishes to advertise her marital status to the world at large.
Any Czech woman calling herself "Albright" is already advertising her
marital status loud and clear. Papering it over with "Ms" is in this
case (and in that of Nancy Reagan and all the other examples I've
quoted that have all been roundly ignored, perhaps because they're
inconvenient) a futile exercise that smacks of nothing but knee-jerk
PC-ery.
>> Since women now have the option -- an option millions now choose
>> to use -- of not changing their surnames after they get married,
>> this, combined with the use of "Ms" to offer no clues as to their
>> marital status, achieves the desired equilibrium. But those women
>> who persist in using their husband's surname have opted out of that.
>
>I completely disagree. You act as if it's a package deal -- that if
>you choose to use your husband's surname, you also choose to give up
>the right to use "Ms." as your title. It doesn't work that way.
It does if everyone knows that you're a Czech woman who has chosen to
adopt hubby's power surname.
>Sorry, but that assumption was incorrect. Choosing to use one's
>husband's name is not the same thing as choosing to publicize one's
>marital status, unless the public is aware that (a) the woman's name
>used to be different;
How many Czechs are named Albright from birth? Of course the public is
aware that she is or was married!
>(b) she is currently involved in a relationship
>with a man; and (c) the man in the relationship has the same name as
>the one she is now using.
I'm with you on that but it's quite irrelevant here. The U.S.
Secretary of State is known as "Albright" because she married a man
called Albright and has chosen to use his surname ever since. It
doesn't mattter whether they're still together or whether she's a
wife, a widow or a divorcee -- by still calling herself Albright she's
publicly acknowledging that marriage, which means that the appropriate
form of addressing her is with "Mrs".
[snip well-argued stuff I can't argue with, but which has nothing at
all to do with why Czech women are known by Ivy League surnames, which
is what this is all about]
Ross Howard
wrote:
>Speaking of regional differences, is there a reason why you do not
>use the period after "Ms." and "Mrs."? Do you use one after "Mr."?
Very common, if not yet completely standard British/Irish (and
Australian?) style. Probably one of the few times when usage has
followed rather than flown in the face of Fowler -- if the last letter
of an abbreviation is also the last letter of the full word, there's
no need for a full stop. So, "Rev." and "Hon.", but "Mr", "Mrs", "Ms",
and "Dr". Makes sense, sort of. (Although I admit that "Rt Hon." and
"High St., St Albans" look rather forced.)
Cheryl L Perkins
: A. Farrell wrote:
: > Here follows a commonplace, but I'll say it anyway: a married woman
: > is "Mrs Joe Bloggs" *always*, until the death of her husband, when she
: > becomes "Mrs Cynthia Bloggs".
: This has *never* been correct, even in those days before there was
: any such option as "Ms."
: In the good old days, a woman who married became "Mrs. Joe Bloggs"
: forever, until the day she died, even if that day came AFTER the death
: of her husband. The only time she could ever become "Mrs. Cynthia Bloggs"
: would be in the extremely rare event that she divorced the esteemed
: Mr. Bloggs, usually due to some outrageous action on his part such as
: desertion or adultery.
<snip>
This was a strongly-held belief. My mother was once scolded for signing
her name as, in this example, Mrs. Cynthia Bloggs. She'd been doing it for
years and during all of this period was happily married to my father, but
she was told that she should be writing her name 'Mrs. Joe Bloggs'.
I think the only solution is to ask what a person likes to be called. If
you don't know, use 'Ms.' or 'Mr.'. If you are speaking to the person, you
can use 'Ma'am' or 'Sir', although I've heard that the British prefer to
save Ma'am for the Queen.
<snip>
: Speaking of regional differences, is there a reason why you do not
: use the period after "Ms." and "Mrs."? Do you use one after "Mr."?
I do. Some people don't.
--
Cheryl Perkins
cper...@stemnet.nf.ca
Drgnwng
>>Sorry, but that assumption was incorrect. Choosing to use one's
>>husband's name is not the same thing as choosing to publicize one's
>>marital status, unless the public is aware that (a) the woman's name
>>used to be different;
>
>How many Czechs are named Albright from birth? Of course the public is
>aware that she is or was married!
>[snip well-argued stuff I can't argue with, but which has nothing at
>all to do with why Czech women are known by Ivy League surnames, which
>is what this is all about]
Interesting point of view. For me, the statement that this is "what this is all
about" is completely false. The origin of her original name (or her current
surname, for that matter) is as completely irrelevant to me as her marital
status. I care about what she does, not about stereotypes and assumptions based
on the origin of her name.
You obviously dislike Ms. Albright, which is your right. But that doesn't
change the fact that, by common usage and dictionary definition (and you have
given me no other basis for deciding the correct usage beyond your personal
beliefs), she is completely correct in calling herself Ms. Albright.
tas
Donna Richoux
> Any Czech woman calling herself "Albright" is already advertising her
> marital status loud and clear. Papering it over with "Ms" is in this
> case (and in that of Nancy Reagan and all the other examples I've
> quoted that have all been roundly ignored, perhaps because they're
> inconvenient) a futile exercise that smacks of nothing but knee-jerk
> PC-ery.
All right, Ross, now we've moved beyond concerns about "Ms." to other
matters that verge on racism. One is that, in the US at least, someone
who has been a resident since 1948 and without the slightest doubt
acquired American citizenship during that time, is not called a "Czech
woman." She is called an American woman. It is insulting by American
standards to refuse to do so.
Second, I dug out that article. Some basic facts, as I can extract them.
Born in Prague in the late 1930s.
Spent early years in London.
Moved to the US in 1948, age 10? 11?.
1955 - won a scholarship to Wellesley
1959 - married Joseph Albright after graduation
1982 - they were divorced
> >> Since women now have the option -- an option millions now choose
> >> to use -- of not changing their surnames after they get married,
> >> this, combined with the use of "Ms" to offer no clues as to their
> >> marital status, achieves the desired equilibrium. But those women
> >> who persist in using their husband's surname have opted out of that.
> >
> >I completely disagree. You act as if it's a package deal -- that if
> >you choose to use your husband's surname, you also choose to give up
> >the right to use "Ms." as your title. It doesn't work that way.
>
> It does if everyone knows that you're a Czech woman who has chosen to
> adopt hubby's power surname.
Power surname?? Just how the hell many people in the US have the
slightest association with Albright? Besides *her*. It's not like it's
Rockefeller or Ford. The article says that Joseph Albright's
great-grandfather, named Medill, owned the Chicago Tribune and had been
mayor of Chicago. That's nice, there have been a lot of mayors of
Chicago. I don't know who told you that Albright is a famous name, but
you should question the source.
Oh, yes, Madeleine's surname before she was m