When do we add "the" in front of proper nouns?

[gloria]

Hi there,

I have this question on my mind for years. Why we say the White House
instead of White House? And then we say Maple Street without "the?" I
wonder if there is a rule we can follow to distinguish these two kinds
of proper nouns, one with "the", the other without "the." Thanks in
advance. regards,

Gloria

[gloria]

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

There is no fully reliable rule, but one is more likely to need a "the"
when the name is descriptive: the White House is indeed white; it's not
just a name. Mind you, if they decided to paint it green we'd quite
likely continue to call it the White House. As that's not likely to
happen we'll probably never know. On the other hand there is probably
nothing particularly maplish about Maple Street: it's just a name. In
England many towns have a street called High Street; for these it is
usual to talk about "the High Street" even though there is nothing
particularly high about them, so this is a common exception. The
corresponding American name, Main Street, is an exception in the
opposite direction: such streets usually are (or once were) main
streets, but they don't take the article. So if there is a rule at all
it's very weak.

So far as country names are concerned we put an article when the name
is descriptive -- the United States, the Czech Republic, the Ivory
Coast. Otherwise mostly not, but there are some that are or once were
exceptions: the Argentine, the Ukraine, the Lebanon, the Gambia. Most
of these nowadays usually omit the "the". Why Lebanon ever had an
article I don't know. The Gambia has one because it's the name of a
river, and rivers usually take "the". Argentina used to have one
because when it got that name they wanted to suggest to prospective
settlers that there was lots of silver there. Ukraine was once a
translation of "the Southern Territory", but modern Ukrainians get
quite cross if you include the "the".


> --
athel

[Don Phillipson]

"gloria" <glori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4128e27b-0bc5-40e2...@j11g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...

> I have this question on my mind for years. Why we say the White House
> instead of White House? And then we say Maple Street without "the?" I
> wonder if there is a rule we can follow to distinguish these two kinds
> of proper nouns, one with "the", the other without "the."

Usage is even more varied than you deplore . . . .
1. In general, English has no "constructive" rules i.e. no rules
that govern beforehand how we may speak or how we must
speak. From the patterns of actual usage, 19th century
grammarians distilled rules (which are really patterns of
preferred usage, and the notional reasons for this preference.)
2. So far as English has any rules, proper names are exempt
from those rules. If someone named Czolgosz wants to
pronounce his name like Smith, you or I may not disallow him.
3. Place names have prior histories that confirm #2. E.g.
France = the French Republic (lower case T on the definite
article) but Argentina = The Argentine (upper case T) and
similarly for Ukraine and some other place names.
4a. The rules for distinguishing between A (indefinite) and
THE (definite article) generally persist.
4b. But proper names remain exempt (#2) i.e. there is no
rule such as you request.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[gloria]

On 8月3日, 下午7時21分, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
> "gloria" <gloria0...@gmail.com> wrote in message

re
Thanks for you detailed explanations. As you suggest, there is no rule
when we apply a "the" before a proper noun. However, I was told by a
native speaker that if the proper noun (e.g. Maple Street) cannot be
included in your sight, then you won't use a "the" befor the proper
noun. Immediatly, the "Pacific Ocean" came to my mind as an exception.
And the native speaker wasn't able to offer a further explanation. I
then guess that we use a "the" before proper nouns in terms of
geography, since we have "the Alps," "the Rhine River" as examples. Am
I right about that? Generally, the rule of using a "the" before a
descriptive proper nouns answers most of my doubt. We have the Yankees
as a good example. Thanks. Regards,

Gloria

[j...@arcade.demon.co.uk]

gloria wrote:
> > > I have this question on my mind for years. Why we say the White House

Because there's one of it.

> > > instead of White House?

Because that could be any random white house.

> > > And then we say Maple Street without "the?"

Because there could be any number of them.

The Maple Street.
Which Maple Street?

JGH

[Christian Weisgerber]

gloria <glori...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have this question on my mind for years. Why we say the White House
> instead of White House? And then we say Maple Street without "the?" I
> wonder if there is a rule we can follow to distinguish these two kinds
> of proper nouns, one with "the", the other without "the."

Grammarians call these STRONG proper names (without article) and
WEAK proper names (with article). There is no general rule. Some
proper names are strong, some are weak, and for some both usages
occur (Ukraine, the Ukraine).

Looking into _The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language_, I see
that a few rules can be extracted, but they aren't very helpful.
Plural proper names are always weak. River names are always weak.
I see a claim that Latinate region names on -ia (e.g. Siberia) are
strong, but note that this doesn't apply to countries (e.g. the
Gambia). We are quickly reaching diminishing returns here.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On 8/3/2012 6:53 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> Ukraine was once a translation of "the Southern Territory"

YM "borderland"

[Lanarcam]

It was formerly known as "le Mont Liban"

"Les négociations s’achèvent le 9 juin 1861 à Constantinople
par la signature d’une convention entre l’Empire Ottoman,
la France, la Grande-Bretagne, la Prusse et la Russie.
La sublime Porte reconnaît l’existence de la province
autonome du Mont-Liban."

http://www.lesclesdumoyenorient.fr/Mont-Liban-1840-1860.html

The negociations ended on june 9th 1861 in Contantinople
by the signature of a convention among the Ottoman
Empire, France, Great Britain, Prussia and Russia.
The "sublime Porte" recognize the existence of the
autonomous provine of the "Mont Liban".

[Mark Brader]

"Gloria":

> > > > I have this question on my mind for years. Why we say the White House

J.G. Harston:

> Because there's one of it.

> > > > instead of White House?

> Because that could be any random white house.

Wrong -- the capital letters tell you it's a name.

As Don Phillipson said, there really are no rules for this for which
names take a "the". When some things of a type are named with "the"
and some without (for example, Biltmore House <http://www.biltmore.com>
and the White House) it's best to just think of the word "the" as
being part of the name, even though it isn't capitalized. That is,
the name is "the White House".

Some organizations whose name includes a "the", and which are large
enough to have their own rules of style, do insist on capitalizing
the word. For example, if the New York Times has occasion to mention
its own name, it calls itself The New York Times. However, most other
people don't go along with this capitalization, and write it the way
I did first.

When this sort of name is used as an adjective, it loses the article,
forming expressions like "White House lawn" and "New York Times"
reporter"; if people use "the" with these, the "the" refers to the
lawn or the reporter, not the White House or the Times.

> > > > And then we say Maple Street without "the?"
>
> Because there could be any number of them.

No, because "the" isn't part of the name. However, this is convenient
because there could be any number of them.

> The Maple Street.
> Which Maple Street?

The Maple Street in Boston, not the Maple Street in Seattle.

On the other hand, it is common to use "the" with a *description* of a
street or road. "The main street of Toronto"; "He left town by the
Toronto highway." When these descriptions turn into names, they
sometimes keep their articles.
--
Mark Brader | "But how do you figure out whether the programmer
Toronto | knew what he was doing when you find his code
m...@vex.net | after he's gone?" -- Roger Critchlow

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Mark Brader]

Christian Weisgerber:

> Grammarians call these STRONG proper names (without article) and
> WEAK proper names (with article).

English-speaking grammarians?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Gadgetry abounded everywhere, almost all of which
m...@vex.net | he could justify." -- Robert Asprin

[R H Draney]

Don Phillipson filted:

And then there's the rock bands...it was "The Who" but "Guess Who" went
unarticled...Paul McCartney played in "The Beatles" but not in "The
Wings"...I've seen both "Moody Blues" and "The Moody Blues" listed as canonical;
likewise "Rolling Stones" and "The Rolling Stones"....

At least "A Flock of Seagulls" was clear, even if it's all but impossible to
refer to an arbitrary single group member....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[John Varela]

On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:21:57 UTC, "Don Phillipson"
<e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:

> 1. In general, English has no "constructive" rules i.e. no rules
> that govern beforehand how we may speak or how we must
> speak. From the patterns of actual usage, 19th century
> grammarians distilled rules (which are really patterns of
> preferred usage, and the notional reasons for this preference.)

I largely agree with what you say, but I know there must be some
rules. I have internalized them and I can't tell you what they are,
but it comes natural and is automatic to say:

Fairfax County or the County of Fairfax.

New York City or the City of New York.

Maple Street but not the Street of Maple.

Chesapeake Bay but not the Bay of Chesapeake.

The Mississippi River when it's a noun but Mississippi River when
it's an adjective.

And so forth.

--
John Varela

[micky]

On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 07:21:57 -0400, "Don Phillipson"
<e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:

>"gloria" <glori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:4128e27b-0bc5-40e2...@j11g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
>
>> I have this question on my mind for years. Why we say the White House
>> instead of White House? And then we say Maple Street without "the?" I
>> wonder if there is a rule we can follow to distinguish these two kinds
>> of proper nouns, one with "the", the other without "the."
>
>Usage is even more varied than you deplore . . . .
>1. In general, English has no "constructive" rules i.e. no rules
>that govern beforehand how we may speak or how we must
>speak. From the patterns of actual usage, 19th century
>grammarians distilled rules (which are really patterns of
>preferred usage, and the notional reasons for this preference.)
>2. So far as English has any rules, proper names are exempt
>from those rules. If someone named Czolgosz wants to
>pronounce his name like Smith, you or I may not disallow him.
>3. Place names have prior histories that confirm #2. E.g.

There is a great episode where Desi and Lucy Ricardo go to England and
Lucy is trying to make a phone call. One exchange is Charl-mun-deli
and there's another word I can't recall that they spend time on.

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On 8/3/2012 4:30 PM, R H Draney wrote:
> And then there's the rock bands...it was "The Who" but "Guess Who" went
> unarticled...

Not in all the TV commercials I saw for their various K-TEL collections
as a kid! All their album covers say "The Guess Who."

What gets even more confusing is whether the article should be
capitalized as part of the name or not. Is it the Guess Who, or The
Guess Who? Many reviewers called Matt Johnson's act "The The," even
though his album covers consistently said "the The."

> At least "A Flock of Seagulls" was clear, even if it's all but impossible to
> refer to an arbitrary single group member.

What's so hard about "a Seagull"? Or maybe that's "a Flocking Seagull."

�R

[micky]

On 3 Aug 2012 20:34:01 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net>
wrote:

>On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:21:57 UTC, "Don Phillipson"
><e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>
>> 1. In general, English has no "constructive" rules i.e. no rules
>> that govern beforehand how we may speak or how we must
>> speak. From the patterns of actual usage, 19th century
>> grammarians distilled rules (which are really patterns of
>> preferred usage, and the notional reasons for this preference.)
>
>I largely agree with what you say, but I know there must be some
>rules. I have internalized them and I can't tell you what they are,
>but it comes natural and is automatic to say:
>
>Fairfax County or the County of Fairfax.
>
>New York City or the City of New York.

My favorite in NY is who runs the trains under the Hudson River, the
New York Port of Authority.

When I'm sober and concentrating , I call it the New York Port
Authority, but I think it's actually PONYA, the Port Authority of New
York. Or the Port of Authority of New York.

>
>Maple Street but not the Street of Maple.
>
>Chesapeake Bay but not the Bay of Chesapeake.
>
>The Mississippi River when it's a noun but Mississippi River when
>it's an adjective.
>
>And so forth.

Indiana University and the University of Chicago. My brother went to
one and I to the other, but most people still get both of them
backwards, the University of Indiana and Chicago University.

[micky]

On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 14:18:47 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Christian Weisgerber:
>> Grammarians call these STRONG proper names (without article) and
>> WEAK proper names (with article).
>
>English-speaking grammarians?

Yes. Spanish-speaking grammarians call them ESTRONG proper names and
ESWEAK proper names.

[micky]

Maybe Bowdenland.

And I think Newfoundland was once "New found land".

But that could be an urban legend.

[James Hogg]

No, it's true. The first time it's mentioned in writing it's called "the
newe founde launde".

--
James

[Mark Brader]

John Varela:

>> Fairfax County or the County of Fairfax.
>>
>> New York City or the City of New York.

"Micky":

> My favorite in NY is who runs the trains under the Hudson River, the
> New York Port of Authority.

A fellow I know who lives in the city sometimes says that.

> When I'm sober and concentrating , I call it the New York Port
> Authority, but I think it's actually PONYA, the Port Authority of New
> York. Or the Port of Authority of New York.

"The Port Authority of New York & New Jersey" <http://www.panynj.gov/>.

> Indiana University and the University of Chicago. My brother went to
> one and I to the other, but most people still get both of them

> backwards...

Interesting "but".
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, m...@vex.net
"Have you ever heard [my honesty] questioned?"
"I never even heard it mentioned." -- Every Day's a Holiday

[Christian Weisgerber]

Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:

> > Grammarians call these STRONG proper names (without article) and
> > WEAK proper names (with article).
>
> English-speaking grammarians?

The authors of _The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language_ at
least.

[Peter Moylan]

On 04/08/12 04:20, Lanarcam wrote:

> "Les n�gociations s�ach�vent le 9 juin 1861 � Constantinople
> par la signature d�une convention entre l�Empire Ottoman,

> la France, la Grande-Bretagne, la Prusse et la Russie.

> La sublime Porte reconna�t l�existence de la province

> autonome du Mont-Liban."
>
> http://www.lesclesdumoyenorient.fr/Mont-Liban-1840-1860.html
>
> The negociations ended on june 9th 1861 in Contantinople
> by the signature of a convention among the Ottoman
> Empire, France, Great Britain, Prussia and Russia.
> The "sublime Porte" recognize the existence of the
> autonomous provine of the "Mont Liban".

Since your English is generally excellent, I imagine you won't mind a
couple of corrections:
1. negotiations.
2. *with* the signature.
(I won't comment on typos.)

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[tony cooper]

On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 17:39:52 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

I have been known to fire off letters (before email came to be) to
newspapers that referred to the University of Indiana. It did no
good.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Christian Weisgerber]

Glenn Knickerbocker <No...@bestweb.net> wrote:

> > Ukraine was once a translation of "the Southern Territory"
>
> YM "borderland"

"Mark" if you want to use a good old Germanic word (cf. "Denmark").

[micky]

On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 21:16:20 -0400, tony cooper
<tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 17:39:52 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 3 Aug 2012 20:34:01 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:21:57 UTC, "Don Phillipson"
>>><e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 1. In general, English has no "constructive" rules i.e. no rules
>>>> that govern beforehand how we may speak or how we must
>>>> speak. From the patterns of actual usage, 19th century
>>>> grammarians distilled rules (which are really patterns of
>>>> preferred usage, and the notional reasons for this preference.)
>>>
>>>I largely agree with what you say, but I know there must be some
>>>rules. I have internalized them and I can't tell you what they are,
>>>but it comes natural and is automatic to say:
>>>
>>>Fairfax County or the County of Fairfax.
>>>
>>>New York City or the City of New York.
>>
>>My favorite in NY is who runs the trains under the Hudson River, the
>>New York Port of Authority.

I love this one so much. Becaue I think NewYorkers think of NYC as
the port or portal of authority. I do. It's certainly not
Baltimore.

>>When I'm sober and concentrating , I call it the New York Port
>>Authority, but I think it's actually PONYA, the Port Authority of New
>>York. Or the Port of Authority of New York.
>>>
>>>Maple Street but not the Street of Maple.
>>>
>>>Chesapeake Bay but not the Bay of Chesapeake.
>>>
>>>The Mississippi River when it's a noun but Mississippi River when
>>>it's an adjective.
>>>
>>>And so forth.
>>
>>Indiana University and the University of Chicago. My brother went to
>>one and I to the other, but most people still get both of them
>>backwards, the University of Indiana and Chicago University.
>
>I have been known to fire off letters (before email came to be) to
>newspapers that referred to the University of Indiana. It did no
>good.

Well at least you tried. Kudos.

[Robert Bannister]

On 3/08/12 6:53 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> was lots of silver there. Ukraine was once a translation of "the
> Southern Territory", but modern Ukrainians get quite cross if you
> include the "the".

That doesn't sound right to me. It ought to mean "on the frontier" or
"on the edge" or possibly "at the end". I think you are confusing "yoog"
(south) and "oo" (at).


--
Robert Bannister

[R H Draney]

Glenn Knickerbocker filted:

A parody of "Teen Beat" and similar magazines back in the '80s had a cover blurb
that read "Who's Your Favorite Flock Of Seagull?"...r

[Stan Brown]

On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 21:24:10 -0400, micky wrote:
>
> I love this one so much. Becaue I think NewYorkers think of NYC as
> the port or portal of authority. I do. It's certainly not
> Baltimore.

You mean the Queen City of the Patapsco Drainage Area?

(I miss the /Baltimore Sun/, as I remember it from childhood.)

--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Immortalized by John Donne in "O my America! my new-found-land,…". I
knew the phrase a long time before I knew its context, which is more
interesting than one might guess, as it was written before he got all
religious.

--
athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Why could it be? Is there any plausible alternative explanation of the name?


--
athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I've seen that, but I'm sceptical. "Yugo" certainly means south in
"Yugoslavia", and юг means south in Russian. The Ukrainian for south
appears to be південь, which is not obviously related, but I'd be more
inclined to think of "Ukraine" as a Russian name than a Ukrainian one:
after all for Russians it is in the south, whereas for Ukrainians it's
the centre of the universe.

However, I can't pretend to have an expert knowledge of this.


--
athel

[Don Phillipson]

"gloria" <glori...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:311b4a1b-9fe8-4e2a...@l30g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...

> . . . As you suggest, there is no rule
> when we apply a "the" before a proper noun. However, I was told by a
> native speaker that if the proper noun (e.g. Maple Street) cannot be
> included in your sight, then you won't use a "the" befor the proper
> noun. Immediatly, the "Pacific Ocean" came to my mind as an exception.
> And the native speaker wasn't able to offer a further explanation. I
> then guess that we use a "the" before proper nouns in terms of
> geography, since we have "the Alps," "the Rhine River" as examples. Am
> I right about that?

This rule about vision (if we understand your source correctly)
seems an invention, not supported by usage.

> Generally, the rule of using a "the" before a descriptive proper nouns
> answers most of my doubt. We have the Yankees as a good example.

Be warned that usage varies with place. The Yankees is indeed the
normal American way of naming this US baseball team, but the
British are different (and non-uniform too) cf.
-- Soccer teams are usually named with no article, e.g.
Tottenham Hotspur plays Wolverhampton Wanderers --
but short nouns invoking the players require the article, e.g. the
Spurs play the Wolves.
-- Some teams never have an article, e.g. Milwall, West Ham
United, Arsenal, Moscow Dynamo etc.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I fear you're right, so scrub what I wrote a few minutes ago. I see
it's written Украина in Russian, not Юкрайна as I would have guessed.
Curiously, though, we always pronounce it English as if spelled with Ю.
I don't think we usually stick a /y/ in front of Uzbekistan or Ulan
Bator. I'm not sure about Uruguay -- I don't usually put a /y/ in
front, but that's probably because I mostly hear it spoken by Spanish
speakers.

--
athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

That's likely (if they're speaking English, at least).

> and
> ESWEAK proper names.

That isn't!

--
athel

[GordonD]

"Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote in message
news:jvj9vn$g8h$3...@speranza.aioe.org...

I have to say I would disagree with much of that! Where did it come from?

No need for the article when you say 'Spurs play Wolves on Saturday'. Note
that UK sports teams are by convention plural even if the name doesn't end
with an 's', thus "Chelsea play at Stamford Bridge" (not 'plays'.)

And Arsenal are often known informally as 'The Arsenal' but that's an
exception. Nicknames, however, nearly always do take the article: "Come on,
the Hammers!"
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God."

[John Varela]

On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 21:39:52 UTC, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

> Indiana University and the University of Chicago. My brother went to
> one and I to the other, but most people still get both of them
> backwards, the University of Indiana and Chicago University.

Regarding Indiana, the error is natural because it's usual for
universities named after a place to be "The University of".

In Fredericksburg, Virginia we find The University of Mary
Washington. Now that's just weird.

--
John Varela

[Don Phillipson]

"GordonD" <g.d...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a85c1k...@mid.individual.net...

> No need for the article when you say 'Spurs play Wolves on Saturday'.

This reads more like a headline than a narrative: and headlines do
not require articles in the way ordinary narrative prose does.

> And Arsenal are often known informally as 'The Arsenal' but that's an
> exception.

Most fans have probably forgotten this team began as the Woolwich
Arsenal FA Club.

[musika]

Don Phillipson wrote:
> "GordonD" <g.d...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:a85c1k...@mid.individual.net...
>
>> No need for the article when you say 'Spurs play Wolves on Saturday'.
>
> This reads more like a headline than a narrative: and headlines do
> not require articles in the way ordinary narrative prose does.
>
>> And Arsenal are often known informally as 'The Arsenal' but that's an
>> exception.
>
> Most fans have probably forgotten this team began as the Woolwich
> Arsenal FA Club.

Quite likely as it was Dial Square then Royal Arsenal before it became
Woolwich Asenal FC.

--
Ray
UK

[GordonD]

"Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote in message

news:jvk3lv$l31$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> "GordonD" <g.d...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:a85c1k...@mid.individual.net...
>
>> No need for the article when you say 'Spurs play Wolves on Saturday'.
>
> This reads more like a headline than a narrative: and headlines do
> not require articles in the way ordinary narrative prose does.

No, it's how fans actually speak. If you ask them who they're playing on
Saturday nobody would say "The Wolves".

[Odysseus]

In article <jvhodh$1nna$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,

na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:

> Glenn Knickerbocker <No...@bestweb.net> wrote:
>
> > > Ukraine was once a translation of "the Southern Territory"
> >
> > YM "borderland"
>
> "Mark" if you want to use a good old Germanic word (cf. "Denmark").

More commonly "march" in English, hence the feminine form of "marquis",
"marchioness" -- and the various Earls of March, from the Scottish and
Welsh borders, with other "marcher lords".

--
Odysseus

[Eric Walker]

On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 02:41:55 -0700, gloria wrote:

> I have this question on my mind for years. Why we say the White House
> instead of White House? And then we say Maple Street without "the?" I
> wonder if there is a rule we can follow to distinguish these two kinds
> of proper nouns, one with "the", the other without "the." Thanks in
> advance. regards,

"The" is rightly called the "definite" article: it signifies that there
is one and only one of what it designates.

There can be--and surely are--many streets named "Maple"; but "The White
House" is a particular, singular thing. Mind, many particular, singular
things do not need--and thus do not take--the definite article, but those
are going to be things whose uniqueness is manifest (like the nation
Ukraine). There are doubtless many houses painted white, but adding
"the" makes it clear that we mean the one and only presidential residence
(because capitalization cannot be made manifest in speech).

I don't suppose this is a hard and fast rule--some wit will doubtless now
list exceptions--but I reckon it a strong guideline.


--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[Christian Weisgerber]

Odysseus <odysseu...@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:

> > > > Ukraine was once a translation of "the Southern Territory"
> > >
> > > YM "borderland"
> >
> > "Mark" if you want to use a good old Germanic word (cf. "Denmark").
>
> More commonly "march" in English,

Yes, but that word, like "border", came through French, although
both are ultimately of Germanic origin.

[Robert Bannister]

On 4/08/12 7:55 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> Glenn Knickerbocker <No...@bestweb.net> wrote:
>
>>> Ukraine was once a translation of "the Southern Territory"
>>
>> YM "borderland"
>
> "Mark" if you want to use a good old Germanic word (cf. "Denmark").
>

Also "March" or "Marches".

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 5/08/12 6:39 AM, GordonD wrote:
> "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote in message
> news:jvk3lv$l31$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>> "GordonD" <g.d...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>> news:a85c1k...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>> No need for the article when you say 'Spurs play Wolves on Saturday'.
>>
>> This reads more like a headline than a narrative: and headlines do
>> not require articles in the way ordinary narrative prose does.
>
>
> No, it's how fans actually speak. If you ask them who they're playing on
> Saturday nobody would say "The Wolves".

On the other hand, although they would say "We're playing Arsenal next
week", they might refer to them as "the Gunners". The example with "the
Spurs" was quite wrong.

--
Robert Bannister

[tony cooper]

On 4 Aug 2012 19:57:13 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net>
wrote:

>On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 21:39:52 UTC, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Indiana University and the University of Chicago. My brother went to
>> one and I to the other, but most people still get both of them
>> backwards, the University of Indiana and Chicago University.
>
>Regarding Indiana, the error is natural because it's usual for
>universities named after a place to be "The University of".

I have never been particularly bothered when an individual, who is not
from Indiana or a neighboring state, says "University of Indiana",
but it does bother me when I see that in a newspaper or magazine or
hear it on radio or television. People who write or speak for a
living should know better.

However, to your point, we don't see the same mix-up when Michigan
State University is mentioned. University of Michigan fans would tear
their livers out. And then, you might expect Louisiana State
University and not University of Louisiana.

Is it the word "State" in the name that keeps people straight? I.U.
can't add that as there is already an Indiana State University. Larry
Bird fans know that one.

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-08-03, micky wrote:

> On 3 Aug 2012 20:34:01 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net>

> wrote:

>>Maple Street but not the Street of Maple.
>>
>>Chesapeake Bay but not the Bay of Chesapeake.
>>
>>The Mississippi River when it's a noun but Mississippi River when
>>it's an adjective.
>>
>>And so forth.
>

> Indiana University and the University of Chicago. My brother went to
> one and I to the other, but most people still get both of them
> backwards, the University of Indiana and Chicago University.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "Virginia University",
though.


--
Master Foo said: "A man who mistakes secrets for knowledge is like
a man who, seeking light, hugs a candle so closely that he smothers
it and burns his hand." --- Eric Raymond

[GordonD]

"Robert Bannister" <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:a8637u...@mid.individual.net...

Yes, because 'the Gunners' is a nickname, which nearly always does take the
article. ('Wolves' is an abbreviation, not a nickname.)

[GordonD]

"John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:51W5y0sPNk52-pn2-Vbt7mBFWHPXP@localhost...

> The Mississippi River when it's a noun but Mississippi River when
> it's an adjective.

Does anybody know why in the US it's 'Mississippi River' but in the UK it's
'River Thames'? This seems to be a universal rule that the actual name
precedes the word 'River' in America but follows it over here.

[Guy Barry]

"GordonD" <g.d...@btinternet.com> wrote in message

news:a86rl5...@mid.individual.net...

> "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:51W5y0sPNk52-pn2-Vbt7mBFWHPXP@localhost...
>
> > The Mississippi River when it's a noun but Mississippi River when
> > it's an adjective.
>
> Does anybody know why in the US it's 'Mississippi River' but in the UK
it's
> 'River Thames'? This seems to be a universal rule that the actual name
> precedes the word 'River' in America but follows it over here.

This was discussed very recently. See

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/browse_thread/thread/4424a5
70a1f0cd29/657dda3fbc2b4756

--
Guy Barry

[Stan Brown]

On Sat, 4 Aug 2012 23:06:35 +0000 (UTC), Eric Walker wrote:
> There can be--and surely are--many streets named "Maple"; but "The White
> House" is a particular, singular thing. Mind, many particular, singular
> things do not need--and thus do not take--the definite article, but those
> are going to be things whose uniqueness is manifest (like the nation
> Ukraine).
>

With all due respect, that's no help at all.

It used to be "the Ukraine", and now it's "Ukraine": your rule gives
no guidance on that point. If I'm not mistaken, it's (or it once
was" "the Gambia"; it's still "the Gold Coast" even though there are
*many* Gold Coasts (including the one in Cleveland where I lived
briefly).

[CDB]

On Aug 4, 6:47 pm, Odysseus <odysseus1479...@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:
> In article <jvhodh$1nn...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>  na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:

>
> > Glenn Knickerbocker  <N...@bestweb.net> wrote:
>
> > > > Ukraine was once a translation of "the Southern Territory"
>
> > > YM "borderland"
>
> > "Mark" if you want to use a good old Germanic word (cf. "Denmark").
>
> More commonly "march" in English, hence the feminine form of "marquis",
> "marchioness" -- and the various Earls of March, from the Scottish and
> Welsh borders, with other "marcher lords".

NTM "hunger marchers", on the edge of starvation in early Spring
when supplies ran out.

[Bill McCray]

On 8/5/2012 4:39 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2012-08-03, micky wrote:
>
>> On 3 Aug 2012 20:34:01 GMT, "John Varela"<newl...@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>
>>> Maple Street but not the Street of Maple.
>>>
>>> Chesapeake Bay but not the Bay of Chesapeake.
>>>
>>> The Mississippi River when it's a noun but Mississippi River when
>>> it's an adjective.
>>>
>>> And so forth.
>>
>> Indiana University and the University of Chicago. My brother went to
>> one and I to the other, but most people still get both of them
>> backwards, the University of Indiana and Chicago University.
>
>
> I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "Virginia University",
> though.

We have either "the University of Kentucky" or "UK". KU is Kansas
University.

Bill in that state

[GordonD]

"Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sPrTr.745902$Nc1....@fx33.am4...

Thank you. I'm new here so hadn't seen that thread.

[micky]

On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 00:49:10 -0400, tony cooper
<tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 4 Aug 2012 19:57:13 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 21:39:52 UTC, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> Indiana University and the University of Chicago. My brother went to
>>> one and I to the other, but most people still get both of them
>>> backwards, the University of Indiana and Chicago University.
>>
>>Regarding Indiana, the error is natural because it's usual for
>>universities named after a place to be "The University of".
>
>I have never been particularly bothered when an individual, who is not
>from Indiana or a neighboring state, says "University of Indiana",
>but it does bother me when I see that in a newspaper or magazine or
>hear it on radio or television. People who write or speak for a
>living should know better.
>
>However, to your point, we don't see the same mix-up when Michigan
>State University is mentioned. University of Michigan fans would tear
>their livers out. And then, you might expect Louisiana State
>University and not University of Louisiana.

But what about Wayne State University? I'm still looking for the
state of Wayne. Is it a new one, in what was Canada, maybe?

>Is it the word "State" in the name that keeps people straight?

I think so.

> I.U.
>can't add that as there is already an Indiana State University.

Yes, my Cuban step-father went there. They had a program for Cuban
refugees that enabled him to spend just one semester (or one year?) on
campus, and another year on Friday afternoon and Saturday (so he could
work full time teaching high school Spanish in Lebanon, Ind. iirc

And that got him a Masters in Spanish. The whole thing was sort of
silly, IMO. He spoke proper Spanish all his life and his chief hobby
was reading, Spanish classics and everything else in Spanish. Maybe
there were some education courses in there too.

Spanish of course is the easiest foreign language taught in most Ind.
public schools, and since 2 years of a language are required, he had a
lot of students who didn't want to be there, even in t he years 1961
to 66. So he found a job at a girls' college in Allentown Pa.
Even though he had no Ph.D. they gave him the title of Assistant
Professor.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Aug 4, 1:57 pm, "John Varela" <newla...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 21:39:52 UTC, micky <NONONOmis...@bigfoot.com>

> wrote:
>
> > Indiana University and the University of Chicago.  My brother went to
> > one and I to the other, but most people still get both of them
> > backwards, the University of Indiana and Chicago University.
>
> Regarding Indiana, the error is natural because it's usual for
> universities named after a place to be "The University of".

True for those named after states (though another exception is Ohio
University), if they don't have "State" in the name and aren't
Institutes of Technology, Agricultural and Mechanical Universities, or
the like. Maybe not as true for parts of states, such as Northern
Arizona University, Southern Illinois University, Western Michigan
University, New Mexico Highlands University, etc. Or for American
cities and towns, such as New York University and Princeton
University.

--
Jerry Friedman

[tony cooper]

On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 15:16:57 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>Spanish of course is the easiest foreign language taught in most Ind.
>public schools, and since 2 years of a language are required, he had a
>lot of students who didn't want to be there, even in t he years 1961
>to 66. So he found a job at a girls' college in Allentown Pa.
>Even though he had no Ph.D. they gave him the title of Assistant
>Professor.

While it was a little earlier, I attended an Indianapolis high school
between 1952 and 1956 and Indiana University after that.
I never took a foreign language course and was not required to do so.

Spanish may have been the easiest language to teach or to learn (I'm
not sure which you mean), but there was little use for Spanish in
Indiana in those days. There were no Hispanics in my high school, and
I don't recall meeting an Hispanic in college. That doesn't mean
there weren't any, but I wasn't aware of any.

The Spanish language student, if he or she wanted to practice the
skills, would almost have to do so with another student unless a
vacation was planned. It wasn't until 1959 or 1960 that Cubans began
to arrive in the US, and to the midwest, in any significant numbers.

An acquaintance of mine, who owned a restaurant here in Orlando, was
one of the Cubans who fled Cuba after Castro's take-over. He was
sponsored by a Chicago church and arrived in Chicago in February. A
bus from the airport delivered him to the Loop, and he walked several
blocks to catch the El to the sponsor's home. The only footwear he
brought with him were open sandals. He says his toes still hurt when
he thinks about the day he arrived.

He was a pharmacist in Cuba, but not allowed to work in that field in
the US. He worked as a dishwasher in a restaurant, but moved to
Florida as soon as he was able to do so. There was some requirement
to spend a certain amount of time under the auspices of the sponsor
before being allowed to move.

[tony cooper]

When you look at a list of universities, the concept of "it's usual"
seems not to be.

There is a university in Orlando that has a rather different name:
Full Sail University. Despite having a name that makes it sound like
a trade school, they offer both Bachelor's and Master's degrees.

http://www.fullsail.edu/

[micky]

On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 16:07:53 -0400, tony cooper
<tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 15:16:57 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Spanish of course is the easiest foreign language taught in most Ind.
>>public schools, and since 2 years of a language are required, he had a
>>lot of students who didn't want to be there, even in t he years 1961
>>to 66. So he found a job at a girls' college in Allentown Pa.
>>Even though he had no Ph.D. they gave him the title of Assistant
>>Professor.
>
>While it was a little earlier, I attended an Indianapolis high school
>between 1952 and 1956 and Indiana University after that.
>I never took a foreign language course and was not required to do so.

It was state law, I'm sure, (Unless there was some state education
commission that could set a binding policy) by the time I got to HS,
1960. Two years.

>
>Spanish may have been the easiest language to teach or to learn (I'm
>not sure which you mean), but there was little use for Spanish in
>Indiana in those days. There were no Hispanics in my high school, and

In my day also, but even fewe (than none)r who spoke French.

>I don't recall meeting an Hispanic in college. That doesn't mean
>there weren't any, but I wasn't aware of any.
>
>The Spanish language student, if he or she wanted to practice the
>skills, would almost have to do so with another student unless a
>vacation was planned. It wasn't until 1959 or 1960 that Cubans began
>to arrive in the US, and to the midwest, in any significant numbers.

I never thought the law had anything to do with Cubans, but otoh, I
assumed it had been law for a long time.

>
>An acquaintance of mine, who owned a restaurant here in Orlando, was
>one of the Cubans who fled Cuba after Castro's take-over. He was
>sponsored by a Chicago church and arrived in Chicago in February. A
>bus from the airport delivered him to the Loop, and he walked several
>blocks to catch the El to the sponsor's home. The only footwear he
>brought with him were open sandals. He says his toes still hurt when
>he thinks about the day he arrived.

LOL.

>He was a pharmacist in Cuba, but not allowed to work in that field in
>the US.

My step-fatehr was a lawyer, but there isn't much similarity between
Spanish and US law. He would have had to start from the beginning,
and he was 40 with a wife** and a teen-aged daughter. **Who died and
is buried in Terra Haute, come to think of it. Before he met my
mother.

> He worked as a dishwasher in a restaurant, but moved to
>Florida as soon as he was able to do so. There was some requirement
>to spend a certain amount of time under the auspices of the sponsor
>before being allowed to move.

I suppose he had a sponsor but I never heard a word about it. Well
it was probably his wife's family, who lived in Sheepshead Bay,
Brooklyn. I wonder how he met his wife. One thing I know, because
he wa a lawyer and had gone to Mexico once or more on legal business,
he had a passport. But his two brothers were merchants, I think, and
had never had a passport, and Castro wasn't giving out new ones.
So they had to wait a couple years until I think maybe there was some
big release, and they came to the US.

One had already sent his children ahead to a family in Los Angeles,
so that's where he and his wife went. The other one went to Miam or
the cheap part of Miami Beach, where they were when we viisted. .
My step-sister lived with them for a year or 2 while she went to
college. They had two bedrooms for themselves, their two daughters,
and his wife's mother and my sister. The 3 beds in the kids'
bedroom filled the little room, side by side, and they rotated which
one slept on the living room sofa. (not the grandmother, only the
teenage kids)

But later he did much better. My Cuban step-sister and everyone of my
step-cousins have graduate degrees.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[R H Draney]

tony cooper filted:

>
>There is a university in Orlando that has a rather different name:
>Full Sail University. Despite having a name that makes it sound like
>a trade school, they offer both Bachelor's and Master's degrees.

I was a little surprised to find that both University of Phoenix and its parent
company, Apollo Group Inc, are actually headquartered in Phoenix...I always
assumed they were just carpetbaggers who happened to open up a branch in the
city of the same name....

Got used to that sort of thing with Tombstone Pizza (from Wisconsin) and Arizona
Iced Tea (from Manhattan)....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Stan Brown]

On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 15:16:57 -0400, micky wrote:
> But what about Wayne State University? I'm still looking for the
> state of Wayne. Is it a new one, in what was Canada, maybe?

Is that a serious question?

Wayne State University is a state university(*) located in Detroit.
(Detroit is located in Wayne County, Michigan.)
http://wayne.edu/about/

(*) The University is governed by an eight-member Board of Governors
elected by the voters of Michigan.
http://wayne.edu/about/administration.php

[Eric Walker]

On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 08:29:15 -0400, Stan Brown wrote:

> On Sat, 4 Aug 2012 23:06:35 +0000 (UTC), Eric Walker wrote:
>> There can be--and surely are--many streets named "Maple"; but "The
>> White House" is a particular, singular thing. Mind, many particular,
>> singular things do not need--and thus do not take--the definite
>> article, but those are going to be things whose uniqueness is manifest
>> (like the nation Ukraine).
>>
>>
> With all due respect, that's no help at all.
>
> It used to be "the Ukraine", and now it's "Ukraine": your rule gives no
> guidance on that point. If I'm not mistaken, it's (or it once was" "the
> Gambia"; it's still "the Gold Coast" even though there are *many* Gold
> Coasts (including the one in Cleveland where I lived briefly).

The guidance is that "Ukraine" would be the expected usage, and that is
what the nation itself insists.

And it is not a in any event a "rule", it is a guideline. When humans
are involved, few if any rules are universal.

I might note, though (and I wish I had mentioned it before) that when the
name is of the form "adjective noun", the use of a definite article tends
to ("tends to", not invariably does) derive from the noun as if the
adjective weren't there, as in "the Dominican Republic" or "the Gold
Coast". In contrast, what was "the Argentine" became "Argentina". The
nation properly styled "The Republic of The Gambia" takes its name, and
the short form "The Gambia", from a river: the Gambia.


--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[Robert Bannister]

On 5/08/12 8:29 PM, Stan Brown wrote:

> With all due respect, that's no help at all.
>
> It used to be "the Ukraine", and now it's "Ukraine": your rule gives
> no guidance on that point.

The biggest problem being that Ukrainian has no word for "the".


--
Robert Bannister

[Guy Barry]

"R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:jvmn...@drn.newsguy.com...

> tony cooper filted:
> >
> >There is a university in Orlando that has a rather different name:
> >Full Sail University. Despite having a name that makes it sound like
> >a trade school, they offer both Bachelor's and Master's degrees.
>
> I was a little surprised to find that both University of Phoenix and its
parent
> company, Apollo Group Inc, are actually headquartered in Phoenix...I
always
> assumed they were just carpetbaggers who happened to open up a branch in
the
> city of the same name....

Until I read your post I had no idea that the University of Phoenix was a
private company. The Government-funded course that I'm currently doing is
bought in from them. I shall investigate further. Can private companies
use the name "university" over here? (I know we have the private University
of Buckingham, but I believe that still has some sort of public charter.)

--
Guy Barry

[R H Draney]

Guy Barry filted:

What reason could there be for preventing a private company from calling itself
just about anything it wants to?...McDonald's famously sends its
management-track employees to "Hamburger U", and I believe there's some kind of
clown college down Tony's way....

And speaking of Tony, I spotted the name "Full Sail" in the newspaper
today...apparently it's a brand of beer....r

[Guy Barry]

"R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote in message

news:jvo1v...@drn.newsguy.com...
> Guy Barry filted:

> >Until I read your post I had no idea that the University of Phoenix was a
> >private company. The Government-funded course that I'm currently doing
is
> >bought in from them. I shall investigate further. Can private companies
> >use the name "university" over here? (I know we have the private
University
> >of Buckingham, but I believe that still has some sort of public charter.)
>
> What reason could there be for preventing a private company from calling
itself
> just about anything it wants to?...

There's legislation regarding the use of all sorts of words and phrases. I
doubt whether a private company in this country would be allowed to call
itself "The House of Commons" or "The National Health Service". To call
yourself a "university" requires some sort of public charter, though I don't
know the exact details.

> McDonald's famously sends its
> management-track employees to "Hamburger U", and I believe there's some
kind of
> clown college down Tony's way....

Yes, I'd heard of that. I think I initially thought it was based in
Hamburg.

--
Guy Barry

[Stan Brown]

Not meaning to be snarky, but who cares? In English, we give
countries' names in English. It's Germany, not Deutschland. What
Ukrainians call their own country is interesting of course, but not
dispositive of what English speakers call it.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2012-08-06 13:01:17 +0200, Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> said:

> On Mon, 06 Aug 2012 12:21:55 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>> On 5/08/12 8:29 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>>> With all due respect, that's no help at all.
>>>
>>> It used to be "the Ukraine", and now it's "Ukraine": your rule gives
>>> no guidance on that point.
>>
>> The biggest problem being that Ukrainian has no word for "the".
>
> Not meaning to be snarky, but who cares? In English, we give
> countries' names in English. It's Germany, not Deutschland. What
> Ukrainians call their own country is interesting of course, but not
> dispositive of what English speakers call it.

I'm glad you said that. I have made similar comments myself (more in
the context of Roumania), but feared I might be in a minority of one.

--
athel

[R H Draney]

Athel Cornish-Bowden filted:

Yeah, take *that*, you so-called Coated Voyeur!...you're "Ivory Coast", named
after two bars of soap, and that's final!...r

[Joe Fineman]

I myself thought it odd that Ukrainians should celebrate their
independence by removing a word, in another language, that has no
counterpart in their own language. However, at one point I looked it
up on a Ukrainian Web site & found a courteous exposition of their
reasons, which (tho I still found them unconvincing) were well within
the bounds of reason, so I decided to go along, which I might not have
if I had encountered the bullying that so often accompanies such
requests. I can't find the site now, tho.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: Illicitude enhances felicificity. :||

[tony cooper]

On 6 Aug 2012 02:15:27 -0700, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:

>Guy Barry filted:
>>
>>
>>"R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
>>news:jvmn...@drn.newsguy.com...
>>> tony cooper filted:
>>> >
>>> >There is a university in Orlando that has a rather different name:
>>> >Full Sail University. Despite having a name that makes it sound like
>>> >a trade school, they offer both Bachelor's and Master's degrees.
>>>
>>> I was a little surprised to find that both University of Phoenix and its
>>parent
>>> company, Apollo Group Inc, are actually headquartered in Phoenix...I
>>always
>>> assumed they were just carpetbaggers who happened to open up a branch in
>>the
>>> city of the same name....
>>
>>Until I read your post I had no idea that the University of Phoenix was a
>>private company. The Government-funded course that I'm currently doing is
>>bought in from them. I shall investigate further. Can private companies
>>use the name "university" over here? (I know we have the private University
>>of Buckingham, but I believe that still has some sort of public charter.)
>
>What reason could there be for preventing a private company from calling itself
>just about anything it wants to?...McDonald's famously sends its
>management-track employees to "Hamburger U", and I believe there's some kind of
>clown college down Tony's way....

The Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Clown College has had three US
locations: Venice, Florida; Baraboo, Wisconsin; and Sarasota,
Florida. Currently, they operate at various locations in the US on a
temporary basis and then move on.

There is no truth the rumor that all of the members of the Florida
legislature are graduates. Penn Jillette (Penn & Teller) and Leslie
Nielsen ("Airplane", among other things) are really graduates, though.

Phoenix University, and many other private for-profit institutions,
are currently under fire for low graduation rates, ridiculously high
costs for programs comparable to public colleges and universities, and
the massive debt burdens contracted by the students.

The typical private for-profit school admits students that would not
qualify for admission to a regular college or university. This is one
of the reasons they have a low graduation rate.

Many of the graduates of these schools find that their degrees are not
accepted for some positions because of accreditation shortcomings of
the school. Students that transfer to regular colleges and
universities find the credits earned at these schools are not
accepted.

[Robert Bannister]

On 6/08/12 7:01 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Aug 2012 12:21:55 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>> On 5/08/12 8:29 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>>> With all due respect, that's no help at all.
>>>
>>> It used to be "the Ukraine", and now it's "Ukraine": your rule gives
>>> no guidance on that point.
>>
>> The biggest problem being that Ukrainian has no word for "the".
>
> Not meaning to be snarky, but who cares? In English, we give
> countries' names in English. It's Germany, not Deutschland. What
> Ukrainians call their own country is interesting of course, but not
> dispositive of what English speakers call it.
>

It surely is relevant to the alleged assertion that the Ukrainians don't
like us saying "the Ukraine".

--
Robert Bannister

[Stan Brown]

A minority of two, at least. :-)

[Stan Brown]

Funny -- I was going to give "Ivory Coast" as an example, but I
realized I don't know whether "Cote d'Ivoire" is any more like what
its citizens call it than is "Ivory Coast".

[Stan Brown]

Why?

Turn it around -- why should US citizens care whether our country is
called the Ukrainian equivalent of "United States" or "the United
States"?

Why should Franz I of Austria care whether he's called Franz or
Francis by English speakers? (I mean, why should he care if here
weren't dead?)

English is judged by English standards, and Ukrainian is judged by
Ukrainian standards. Judging either language by the standards of the
other is just silly.

[R H Draney]

Stan Brown filted:

>
>On Mon, 6 Aug 2012 16:02:02 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>> On 2012-08-06 13:01:17 +0200, Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> said:
>> >
>> > Not meaning to be snarky, but who cares? In English, we give
>> > countries' names in English. It's Germany, not Deutschland. What
>> > Ukrainians call their own country is interesting of course, but not
>> > dispositive of what English speakers call it.
>>
>> I'm glad you said that. I have made similar comments myself (more in
>> the context of Roumania), but feared I might be in a minority of one.
>
>A minority of two, at least. :-)

And if *three* people walk in, sing a verse of "Alice's Restaurant", and walk
out they may think it's an organization....r

[Robert Bannister]

I agree, but I think you are missing the point I was trying to make.


--
Robert Bannister

[Peter Moylan]

On 07/08/12 10:57, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 08:32:51 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>> On 6/08/12 7:01 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
>>> On Mon, 06 Aug 2012 12:21:55 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 5/08/12 8:29 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> With all due respect, that's no help at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> It used to be "the Ukraine", and now it's "Ukraine": your rule gives
>>>>> no guidance on that point.
>>>>
>>>> The biggest problem being that Ukrainian has no word for "the".
>>>
>>> Not meaning to be snarky, but who cares? In English, we give
>>> countries' names in English. It's Germany, not Deutschland. What
>>> Ukrainians call their own country is interesting of course, but not
>>> dispositive of what English speakers call it.
>>>
>>
>> It surely is relevant to the alleged assertion that the Ukrainians don't
>> like us saying "the Ukraine".
>
> Why?
>
> Turn it around -- why should US citizens care whether our country is
> called the Ukrainian equivalent of "United States" or "the United
> States"?

Isn't that the point? The US citizens don't care, but the Ukrainians
apparently *do* care. They're not satisfied with saying how it should be
said in Ukrainian. They also want control over how it's said in English.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

It seems fair for a country to declare what its name is in English for
formal and official purposes. Outside those purposes the country just
has to put up with whatever people decide to do.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

[Stan Brown]

Assuming that they actually do care, that it's not an urban legend
like the Eskimos' eight thousand words for snow, then my advice to
them is "stop wanting that", the politer version of "Who died and
made you queen?"

[Eric Walker]

On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 19:27:36 -0400, Stan Brown wrote:

> On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 23:19:42 +1000, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>> On 07/08/12 10:57, Stan Brown wrote:
>> > Turn it around -- why should US citizens care whether our country is
>> > called the Ukrainian equivalent of "United States" or "the United
>> > States"?
>>
>> Isn't that the point? The US citizens don't care, but the Ukrainians
>> apparently *do* care. They're not satisfied with saying how it should
>> be said in Ukrainian. They also want control over how it's said in
>> English.
>
> Assuming that they actually do care, that it's not an urban legend like
> the Eskimos' eight thousand words for snow, then my advice to them is
> "stop wanting that", the politer version of "Who died and made you
> queen?"

I don't think it's them in particular. On this web page--

http://www.infoukes.com/faq/the_ukraine/

--we find an answer, not necessarily definitive but certainly in
agreement with my understandings, of the original question on this thread:

Does English grammar require the definite article the before Ukraine?
Ukraine is the name of an independent country. There are only two
groups of countries which require the article in English: Those with
plural names such as the United States or the Netherlands. The others
have names with adjectival or compound forms which require the
article, such as the United Kingdom, the Dominion of Canada, or the
Ukrainian SSR.

English grammar does not require a definite article before the names
of singular countries such as England, Canada or Ukraine.

That sounds about right.

--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[Peter Moylan]

It also answers the corresponding question about Gambia, Salvador, and
Geria.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2012-08-08 03:55:14 +0000, Eric Walker said:

> On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 19:27:36 -0400, Stan Brown wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 23:19:42 +1000, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>
>>> On 07/08/12 10:57, Stan Brown wrote:
>>>> Turn it around -- why should US citizens care whether our country is
>>>> called the Ukrainian equivalent of "United States" or "the United
>>>> States"?
>>>
>>> Isn't that the point? The US citizens don't care, but the Ukrainians
>>> apparently *do* care. They're not satisfied with saying how it should
>>> be said in Ukrainian. They also want control over how it's said in
>>> English.
>>
>> Assuming that they actually do care, that it's not an urban legend like
>> the Eskimos' eight thousand words for snow, then my advice to them is
>> "stop wanting that", the politer version of "Who died and made you
>> queen?"
>
> I don't think it's them in particular. On this web page--
>
> http://www.infoukes.com/faq/the_ukraine/
>
> --we find an answer, not necessarily definitive but certainly in
> agreement with my understandings, of the original question on this thread:
>
> Does English grammar require the definite article the before Ukraine?
> Ukraine is the name of an independent country. There are only two
> groups of countries which require the article in English: Those with
> plural names such as the United States or the Netherlands.

He's forgetting about the Gambia (not to mention obsolete names like
the Gold Coast)

> The others
> have names with adjectival or compound forms which require the
> article, such as the United Kingdom, the Dominion of Canada, or the
> Ukrainian SSR.
>
> English grammar does not require a definite article before the names
> of singular countries such as England, Canada or Ukraine.

He's making the usual mistake of thinking that logic or rules of
grammar determine usage.

Although the author is a third-generation Canadian he remains very
conscious of his Ukrainian origins, and I think we're reading more a
Ukrainian than a Canadian opinion.


--
athel

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 08:15:18 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr>
wrote:

I take it then that he also thinks English-speaking people should not
pronounce it "You crane" but "oo-kra-eena".

According to Wikipedia the name means "march", as in (the) Welsh marches.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 03:55:14 +0000 (UTC), Eric Walker wrote:
> groups of countries which require the article in English: Those with
> plural names such as the United States or the Netherlands.

Oddly, I was taught back in seventh or eighth grade *not* to use an
article with Netherlands--even though it's formally called the Kingdom of
the Netherlands.

ŹR "The Home Shopping Network is the New Jersey of Drugs"
http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/engel.html --marika5000

[Ian Jackson]

In message <12v3289cdtljtjgv9...@4ax.com>, Glenn
Knickerbocker <No...@bestweb.net> writes

>On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 03:55:14 +0000 (UTC), Eric Walker wrote:
>> groups of countries which require the article in English: Those with
>> plural names such as the United States or the Netherlands.
>
>Oddly, I was taught back in seventh or eighth grade *not* to use an
>article with Netherlands--even though it's formally called the Kingdom of
>the Netherlands.
>

Well, the Dutch use neither the article nor the plural. They simply
their country "Nederland" ("Lowland", or more literally, "Lowerland"),
which is - if nothing else - factual.
--
Ian

[James Hogg]

The plural form Nederlanden has often been used in Dutch history, and it
still is used in the official name, Koninkrijk der Nederlanden.

--
James

[Peter Moylan]

Isn't that plural a reflection of the fact that the kingdom was formed
as a union of several of the neder lands?

[Eric Walker]

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 15:15:26 +1000, Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 08/08/12 13:55, Eric Walker wrote:

[...]

>> I don't think it's them in particular. On this web page--
>>
>> http://www.infoukes.com/faq/the_ukraine/
>>
>> --we find an answer, not necessarily definitive but certainly in
>> agreement with my understandings, of the original question on this
>> thread:
>>
>> Does English grammar require the definite article the before
>> Ukraine? Ukraine is the name of an independent country. There are
>> only two groups of countries which require the article in English:
>> Those with plural names such as the United States or the
>> Netherlands. The others have names with adjectival or compound
>> forms which require the article, such as the United Kingdom, the
>> Dominion of Canada, or the Ukrainian SSR.
>>
>> English grammar does not require a definite article before the names
>> of singular countries such as England, Canada or Ukraine.
>>
>> That sounds about right.
>>
> It also answers the corresponding question about Gambia, Salvador, and
> Geria.

"Gambia" is the Republic of the Gambia, where "the Gambia" is the name of
a river. El Salvador is not an English name--I have never heard it
called "the Salvador"--and other languages' rules are irrelevant in
English structuring (in any event, it is in full República de El
Salvador, literally 'Republic of The Savior'). In both cases, the
article is not being applied to a nation name in the sense that it would
in "the Ukraine".

Of Geria I know nothing unless it is the municipality in the nation not
called the Spain.


--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[Eric Walker]

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 08:15:18 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

[...]

> He's forgetting about the Gambia (not to mention obsolete names like the
> Gold Coast)

We've done this elsethread: "the Gambia" is the name of a river, and
appears as such in the name of the nation, the Republic of the Gambia.
"The Gold Coast" fits the paradigm of "names with adjectival or compound
forms which require the article".


--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[James Hogg]

No doubt. And Vlaanderen/Flanders is plural too, for some reason.

--
James

[CDB]

On 06/08/2012 8:57 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> Stan Brown wrote:
>>> Robert Bannister wrote:

>>>> Stan Brown wrote:

>>>>>
>>>>> It used to be "the Ukraine", and now it's "Ukraine": your rule gives
>>>>> no guidance on that point.
>>>>
>>>> The biggest problem being that Ukrainian has no word for "the".
>>>
>>> Not meaning to be snarky, but who cares? In English, we give
>>> countries' names in English. It's Germany, not Deutschland. What
>>> Ukrainians call their own country is interesting of course, but not
>>> dispositive of what English speakers call it.
>>
>> It surely is relevant to the alleged assertion that the Ukrainians don't
>> like us saying "the Ukraine".

> Turn it around -- why should US citizens care whether our country is
> called the Ukrainian equivalent of "United States" or "the United
> States"?
>
> Why should Franz I of Austria care whether he's called Franz or
> Francis by English speakers? (I mean, why should he care if here
> weren't dead?)

Little Frankie-poo.

As I have heard it, "ukraine" is indeed the Russian for "borderland",
and the Ukrainians find this dismissive. When a language that makes
the distinction, as English does, goes on to call their country "_the_
borderland", that is a step too far.

Little Russki-poos.

[Mr Pumpov]

Gloria wrote:
>> I have this question on my mind for years.

Maybe, "I have had this question on my mind for years."?
Waiting answers for Gloria's question and my remark. :-)

Mr. Pumpov

[Peter Moylan]

That last one was a joke about al-Jazā'ir.

[Peter Moylan]

I don't know enough Dutch -- perhaps Jan could help out here -- but my
guess is that "Graafschap Vlaanderen" is short for "County of the
Flemish (people)" or perhaps "County of the Flemish (lands)".

I do know about Antwerpen. That's not a plural, it's a use of the verb
"werpen".

[James Hogg]

Don't worry, some of us got it.

--
James

[Peter Moylan]

On 08/08/12 21:00, Mr Pumpov wrote:
> Gloria wrote:
>>> I have this question on my mind for years.
>
> Maybe, "I have had this question on my mind for years."?

Yes, you're correct.

> Waiting answers for Gloria's question and my remark. :-)

The weight of opinion is that the answer to Gloria's question is that
there is no simple rule. You just have to learn the instances case by case.

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 15:15:26 +1000, Peter Moylan

What about (the) Sudan?

I used to hear and read it as "The Sudan". It seems to have now lost the
definite article in official use.

The Wikipedia article on that country sometimes uses the definite
article and sometimes doesn't:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan

The people of Sudan have a long history...

A member of the United Nations, Sudan...

....responding to the early incursions (...) into the Sudan from
Italian East Africa during 1940.

The attention of NGOs shifted shortly after the war broke out in the
western part of the Sudan known as Darfur.

...this applied to all residents of the Sudan regardless of their
religion.

...the economy in the Sudan has been slowly growing over the last
ten years...

The vast majority of Arab tribes in Sudan migrated into the Sudan in
the 12th century,....

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 14:18:21 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>What about (the) Sudan?
>
>I used to hear and read it as "The Sudan". It seems to have now lost the
>definite article in official use.

The Sudan is a region far bigger than the country. It stretches right across
the continent.

Though maybe to avoid confusion, or increase confusion, they are now calling
it The Sahel.

In other words, I'm not sure if The Sahel is the same as The Sudan, or whether
it is another region nearby.

[Eric Walker]

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 22:37:26 +1000, Peter Moylan wrote:

[...]

> The weight of opinion is that the answer to Gloria's question is that
> there is no simple rule. You just have to learn the instances case by
> case.

Well, there is a simple *guideline* though:

Use a leading "the" with nations having pluralized names (such as the
United States or the Netherlands) and with those having names
comprising a noun and one or more leading adjectives (such as the
United Kingdom or the Gold Coast).

There are some apparent exceptions that are nations whose names include
the name of a geographic feature that itself needs a definite article:
The Republic of the Gambia, commonly called just "the Gambia" is named
after a river, the Gambia.

Note also that often the expanded full name will want the article even
when the short, common name does not, as with:

The Republic of Elbonia

Elbonia


--
Cordially,
Eric Walker