Greeks bearing gifts?
Arlene & Peter
Virgil's Aeneid contains the line:
"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."
Admittedly, his context is the Trojan Horse.
But the modern proverb, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts"
does some violence to the Latin phrase, which plainly says
that Aeneas fears two separate groups, namely,
1) Greeks, and
2) (Those who are) bearing gifts.
There is no implicaton that these are but one group.
What's going on here?
Peter H. Ten Eyck
PBusw13724
It is a long time since I did Latin, but my recollection is that here the 'et'
is _not_ a conjunction but an emphasiser: I fear the Greeks even when bearing
gifts".
Paul Buswell
Aaron J. Dinkin
Actually, this isn't "et" meaning 'and'. This is "et" short for "etiam",
meaning 'even'. So "Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" means 'I fear Greeks,
even when they are bearing gifts.'
(Come to think of it, is "et" short for "etiam" or is "etiam" long for
"et"? It seems plausible that "etiam" 'even' might come from "et" 'and,
even' plus "iam" 'now'. But in any case, the "et" in this line is 'even',
not 'and'.)
And it's Laocoon, not Aeneas. Laocoon promptly gets eaten by sea serpents,
leaving the Trojans free to bring in the horse without interference.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Arcadian Rises
>Virgil's Aeneid contains the line:
>
>"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."
>
>Admittedly, his context is the Trojan Horse.
>But the modern proverb, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts"
The "modern proverb" is a liberal translation of "Timeo.." . The translator was
more concerned with prosody than political correctness; even though "Greeks"
doesn't entirely rhyme with "gifts", there is a certain rhythm that makes this
saying easier to remember than the cumbersome but verbatim "Beware of gift
bearing Greeks"
>does some violence to the Latin phrase, which plainly says
>that Aeneas fears two separate groups, namely,
>
>1) Greeks, and
>2) (Those who are) bearing gifts.
>
>There is no implicaton that these are but one group.
Yes, there is. "Dona ferentes" is a qualifier of the "Greeks". Otherwise, it
cannot stand by itself.
>
>What's going on here?
>
Prima facie casus belli ad rectitude politicum.
Arlene & Peter
Aaron J. Dinkin wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:52:25 -0400, Arlene & Peter <ar_...@ids.net> wrote:
>
> > Here's a question Ihave wondered about for a long time.
> >
> > Virgil's Aeneid contains the line:
> >
> > "Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."
> >
> > Admittedly, his context is the Trojan Horse. But the modern proverb,
> > "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts" does some violence to the Latin phrase,
> > which plainly says that Aeneas fears two separate groups, namely,
> >
> > 1) Greeks, and
> > 2) (Those who are) bearing gifts.
> >
> > There is no implicaton that these are but one group.
> >
> > What's going on here?
>
> Actually, this isn't "et" meaning 'and'. This is "et" short for "etiam",
> meaning 'even'. So "Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" means 'I fear Greeks,
> even when they are bearing gifts.'
>
> (Come to think of it, is "et" short for "etiam" or is "etiam" long for
> "et"? It seems plausible that "etiam" 'even' might come from "et" 'and,
> even' plus "iam" 'now'. But in any case, the "et" in this line is 'even',
> not 'and'.)
If you say so, Aaron. But then, of course, I have to wonder.
Why didn't Virgil write "etiam" instead of "et"? Is it the
Balboa/Cortez problem all over again?
I thas a ring to it.
"Timeo Danaos etiam dona ferentes."
>
> And it's Laocoon, not Aeneas. Laocoon promptly gets eaten by sea serpents,
> leaving the Trojans free to bring in the horse without interference.
>
> -Aaron J. Dinkin
> Dr. Whom
You're right. Laocoon tried to warn the Trojans, and some god
allied to the Greeks (probably Athene; it sounds like something
she would do) sent the serpents to shut him up. I had
forgotten.
Peter
Arlene & Peter
PBusw13724 wrote:
You may be right, Paul.
That would account for the meaning, all right, but whence
comes the warrant for anyone's claim that "et" doesn't
simply mean "and"? Who decided that Virgil cannot
have meant what _I_ siad? Hoary, accumulated "scholarship"?
Or, as in "Fiddler on the Roof", "Tradition!"?
Peter, inclined not to truckle tamely. ;>)
Arlene & Peter
Arcadian Rises wrote:
> >From: Arlene & Peter ar_...@ids.net
>
> >Virgil's Aeneid contains the line:
> >
> >"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."
> >
> >Admittedly, his context is the Trojan Horse.
> >But the modern proverb, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts"
>
> The "modern proverb" is a liberal translation of "Timeo.." .
Oh, I wasn't wondering about the "beware" vs. "I fear".
> The translator was
> more concerned with prosody than political correctness; even though "Greeks"
> doesn't entirely rhyme with "gifts", there is a certain rhythm that makes this
> saying easier to remember than the cumbersome but verbatim "Beware of gift
> bearing Greeks"
>
> >does some violence to the Latin phrase, which plainly says
> >that Aeneas fears two separate groups, namely,
> >
> >1) Greeks, and
> >2) (Those who are) bearing gifts.
> >
> >There is no implicaton that these are but one group.
>
> Yes, there is. "Dona ferentes" is a qualifier of the "Greeks". Otherwise, it
> cannot stand by itself.
Oh? How would a Latin writer express the idea of "gift-bearers"
by itself?
>
>
> >
> >What's going on here?
> >
>
> Prima facie casus belli ad rectitude politicum.
Ah. Like the coming struggle with Iraq? What fun!
Peter
The Bibliographer
Arlene & Peter <ar_...@ids.net> wrote:
>Aaron J. Dinkin wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:52:25 -0400, Arlene & Peter <ar_...@ids.net> wrote:
>> > Here's a question Ihave wondered about for a long time.
>> meaning 'even'. So "Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" means 'I fear Greeks,
>> even when they are bearing gifts.'
>Why didn't Virgil write "etiam" instead of "et"? Is it the
>Balboa/Cortez problem all over again?
... because the line's meter must scan properly. The tmesis in "the
trumpet's Tuscan blare" seems to be for the same purpose.
--
Regards, Frank Young
tip...@wam.umd.edu 703-527-7684
Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891
"Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte"
Aaron J. Dinkin
> Arcadian Rises wrote:
>
>> >From: Arlene & Peter ar_...@ids.net
>>
>> >1) Greeks, and
>> >2) (Those who are) bearing gifts.
>> >
>> >There is no implicaton that these are but one group.
>>
>> Yes, there is. "Dona ferentes" is a qualifier of the "Greeks".
>> Otherwise, it cannot stand by itself.
>
> Oh? How would a Latin writer express the idea of "gift-bearers"
> by itself?
"Dona ferentes". I don't think Arcadian is correct.
The Bibliographer
Sorry, I meant hyperbaton, not tmesis -- going senile.
Aaron J. Dinkin
>
>
> Aaron J. Dinkin wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:52:25 -0400, Arlene & Peter <ar_...@ids.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Here's a question Ihave wondered about for a long time.
>> >
>> > Virgil's Aeneid contains the line:
>> >
>> > "Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."
<snip>
>> Actually, this isn't "et" meaning 'and'. This is "et" short for "etiam",
>> meaning 'even'. So "Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" means 'I fear Greeks,
>> even when they are bearing gifts.'
<snip>
> If you say so, Aaron. But then, of course, I have to wonder.
> Why didn't Virgil write "etiam" instead of "et"? Is it the
> Balboa/Cortez problem all over again?
>
> I thas a ring to it.
>
> "Timeo Danaos etiam dona ferentes."
Yah, it's the meter. The _Aeneid_ is in dactylic hexameter, so each line
consists of six feet, each of which is either a dactyl (long-short-short)
or a spondee (long-long). The whole line is "Quidquid id est, timeo Danaos
et dona ferentes" ('Whatever it is, I fear Greeks even bringing gifts')
and scans like this (using / for long and - for short and | between feet):
/ - - | / - -|/ - -|/ / | / - -| / /
Quidquid id| est, time|o Dana|os et| dona fe|rentes.
| | | | |
"Etiam" would add two more syllables.
Sebastian Hew
"Aaron J. Dinkin" <a...@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:agY%8.34289
> > Oh? How would a Latin writer express the idea of "gift-bearers"
> > by itself?
>
> "Dona ferentes". I don't think Arcadian is correct.
I agree... 'dona ferentes' is fine for gifts-bearers. A relative pronoun may
be used, i.e., 'qui dona ferentes', but that's not necessary.
Sebastian.
Padraig Breathnach
>
>
>PBusw13724 wrote:
>
>> >Here's a question Ihave wondered about for a long time.
>> >
>> >Virgil's Aeneid contains the line:
>> >
>> >"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."
>> >
>> >Admittedly, his context is the Trojan Horse.
>> >But the modern proverb, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts"
>> >does some violence to the Latin phrase, which plainly says
>> >that Aeneas fears two separate groups, namely,
>> >
>> >1) Greeks, and
>> >2) (Those who are) bearing gifts.
>> >
>> >There is no implicaton that these are but one group.
>> >
>> >What's going on here?
>> >
>>
>> It is a long time since I did Latin, but my recollection is that here the 'et'
>> is _not_ a conjunction but an emphasiser: I fear the Greeks even when bearing
>> gifts".
>>
>You may be right, Paul.
>
>That would account for the meaning, all right, but whence
>comes the warrant for anyone's claim that "et" doesn't
>simply mean "and"? Who decided that Virgil cannot
>have meant what _I_ siad?
>
If what you said made sense, then "Timeo dona ferentes" would make
sense. It's a long time since I did Latin (and I didn't like it,
anyway) but I am pretty sure that "timeo dona ferentes" is nonsense.
Who or what is doing the ferenting?
I construe "Timeo danaos et dona ferentes" in good Hiberno-English
style as "I fear (the) Greeks, and they bearing gifts".
>Peter, inclined not to truckle tamely. ;>)
>
Oh, go on: truckle. You might get your belly tickled.
PB
J. J. Lodder
> Here's a question Ihave wondered about for a long time.
>
> Virgil's Aeneid contains the line:
>
> "Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."
It survives in the classical Roman spelling alphabet, like in:
"Tragicomix, avec T, comme Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes?"
(Asterix Legionaire)
Jan
Aaron J. Dinkin
I don't think that would be grammatical, actually.... "Qui dona ferentes"
would be something like 'who bearing gifts'. What would be needed is "qui
dona ferunt", 'who bear gifts'.
Aaron J. Dinkin
> If what you said made sense, then "Timeo dona ferentes" would make
> sense. It's a long time since I did Latin (and I didn't like it,
> anyway) but I am pretty sure that "timeo dona ferentes" is nonsense.
> Who or what is doing the ferenting?
Sorry, but "Timeo dona ferentes" is a perfectly good Latin sentence. It
means 'I fear the people bringing gifts.' It's a perfectly straightforward
substantive use of an adjective.
Joe Fineman
> It is a long time since I did Latin, but my recollection is that
> here the 'et' is _not_ a conjunction but an emphasiser: I fear the
> Greeks even when bearing gifts".
Cf. that other bit of Latin that everyone has heard:
Et tu, Brute.
The ground covered by English "and", "also", and "even" (not to
mention "yes") is divided up in different ways by other languages.
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: Investing is the opposite of gambling, and downtown is the :||
||: opposite of uptown. :||
John Dean
Whatever. I fear the Greeks and the Lady they bring.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
John Dean
I have ranged far and wide over Google. Everywhere I go, and in every
language of which I have some knowledge, it is translated as 'Greeks, *even
when* bearing gifts.
So I can say with some authority, Peter - it just is.
Unlike the disco-hater who said :-
Timeo Demis Roussos at Donna Summer
Stefano MacGregor
> It is a long time since I did Latin, but my recollection is that here
> the 'et' is _not_ a conjunction but an emphasiser: I fear the Greeks
> even when bearing gifts".
That's correct. Now how do you translate "Malo malo malo malo"?
--
Stefano
I'd rather be in an apple tree than a bad man in adversity.
Robert Bannister
I always assumed the 'et' meant 'even' - I fear the Greeks even (when
they are) bearing gifts.
--
Rob Bannister
Sebastian Hew
"Aaron J. Dinkin" <a...@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:YV_%8.664681
>
> I don't think that would be grammatical, actually.... "Qui dona ferentes"
> would be something like 'who bearing gifts'. What would be needed is "qui
> dona ferunt", 'who bear gifts'.
Yes, of course you're right... I wasn't thinking straight when I posted
that.
Sebastian.
dcw
Arlene & Peter <ar_...@ids.net> wrote:
>Virgil's Aeneid contains the line:
>
>"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."
I seem to remember from last time this was mentioned that it's
actually "ferentis" -- contrary to what my schoolboy Latin
tells me.
David
J. W. Love
>Virgil's Aeneid contains the line:
>"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."
>Admittedly, his context is the Trojan Horse.
>But the modern proverb, "Beware of Greeks bearing
>gifts" does some violence to the Latin phrase, which
>plainly says that Aeneas fears two separate groups
It plainly says LAOCOON is doing the fearing.
>1) Greeks, and
>2) (Those who are) bearing gifts.
>There is no implicaton that these are but one group.
Who would the second group be? The Greeks have seemingly gone away, leaving
their camp (and the horse) to the Trojans. No other group is evident. A few
lines before the quoted phrase, Laocoon has spoken of <ulla . . . do:na . . .
Danaum> 'any gifts of the Greeks'.
The accusative plural of consonant-stem adjectives regularly ends in <-i:s>,
not <-e:s>, so G. P. Goold's Loeb edition gives the line as:
quidquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentis.
Whatever it be, I fear the Greeks, even when bringing gifts.
To get the idea of a second group, with the idea of 'those who are bearing
gifts', wouldn't we need a clause like _qui: do:na ferunt_? Bradley's Arnold,
#413, cautions against using the present participle in the nominative: "'Men
doing this,' or 'those who do this,' should be translated by _qui: hoc
faciunt._" It adds: "and _ii: hoc faciente:s,_ 'those doing this' . . . is not
Latin at all." Hence (I guess) the importance of distinguishing here between
<ferente:s> and <ferenti:s>.
Padraig Breathnach
I find that this makes sense to me, even though my recall of my
not-very-good school Latin is poor. It appeals to me, because it
supports my earlier suggestion in this thread, a suggestion challenged
by Aaron J. Dinkin, who says:
>Sorry, but "Timeo dona ferentes" is a perfectly good Latin sentence. It
>means 'I fear the people bringing gifts.' It's a perfectly straightforward
>substantive use of an adjective.
So who can finally resolve this question for us?
PB
Stephen Toogood
de...@frag.lineone.net> writes
>Aaron J. Dinkin wrote:
>> Yah, it's the meter. The _Aeneid_ is in dactylic hexameter, so each
>> line consists of six feet, each of which is either a dactyl (long-
>> short-short) or a spondee (long-long). The whole line is "Quidquid id
>> est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" ('Whatever it is, I fear Greeks
>> even bringing gifts') and scans like this (using / for long and - for
>> short and | between feet):
>>
>> / - - | / - -|/ - -|/ / | / - -| / /
>> Quidquid id| est, time|o Dana|os et| dona fe|rentes.
>> | | | | |
>>
>> "Etiam" would add two more syllables.
>>
>He coulda dropped the 'id est'. Then we could have translated :-
>
>Whatever. I fear the Greeks and the Lady they bring.
In that case, would you now like to add the previous line to your
translation?
Equo non credite, Teucri.
I'm not sure the Lady will be amused.
--
Stephen Toogood
Gary Vellenzer
says...
The situation in the Aeneid is as follows:
The Greeks have just wheeled up a large wooden horse to the walls of
Troy and announced that it is a votive offering for the goddess Minerva
whose temple is in the citadel. The Trojans are debating whether to
accept the gift or not.
In this situation, what makes sense: "I'm wary of Greeks in general and
also of anybody who brings gifts" or "I'm wary of Greeks even when they
are making nice"?
The Trojans' fate was sealed when they didn't look the gift horse in the
mouth.
Gary
Aaron J. Dinkin
Well, Bradley's Arnold only cautions against using the nominative of
present participles in this way. The phrase in question, "dona ferentes"
(or "...ferentis" if you prefer), is accusative, and Mountford, or
Bradley, or Arnold says: "But the oblique cases (especially the dative and
genitive) of the present participle are also used to indicate a whole
class of persons or a member of a class, whithout stress on
contemporaneous activity." The accusative case, thought not "especial", is
oblique.
Arlene & Peter
dcw wrote:
I just checked in Bartlet's. You're right.
Peter
Arlene & Peter
J. W. Love wrote:
> Peter wrote:
>
> >Virgil's Aeneid contains the line:
> >"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."
> >Admittedly, his context is the Trojan Horse.
> >But the modern proverb, "Beware of Greeks bearing
> >gifts" does some violence to the Latin phrase, which
> >plainly says that Aeneas fears two separate groups
>
> It plainly says LAOCOON is doing the fearing.
Yes. That has been remarked earlier, and I agree.
>
>
> >1) Greeks, and
> >2) (Those who are) bearing gifts.
> >There is no implicaton that these are but one group.
>
> Who would the second group be? The Greeks have seemingly gone away, leaving
> their camp (and the horse) to the Trojans. No other group is evident. A few
> lines before the quoted phrase, Laocoon has spoken of <ulla . . . do:na . . .
> Danaum> 'any gifts of the Greeks'.
> The accusative plural of consonant-stem adjectives regularly ends in <-i:s>,
> not <-e:s>, so G. P. Goold's Loeb edition gives the line as:
>
> quidquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentis.
> Whatever it be, I fear the Greeks, even when bringing gifts.
>
> To get the idea of a second group, with the idea of 'those who are bearing
> gifts', wouldn't we need a clause like _qui: do:na ferunt_? Bradley's Arnold,
> #413, cautions against using the present participle in the nominative: "'Men
> doing this,' or 'those who do this,' should be translated by _qui: hoc
> faciunt._" It adds: "and _ii: hoc faciente:s,_ 'those doing this' . . . is not
> Latin at all." Hence (I guess) the importance of distinguishing here between
> <ferente:s> and <ferenti:s>.
Your case is solid. The only reason I raised this question was
that, given the isolated quote, from which the proverb "Beware
of Greeks..." is derived, "et" looks at a glance like "and", not like
"even when" or like "especially when".
How do YOU account for the "et"?
Peter
Padraig Breathnach
I'm persuaded. Thank you.
Just a little detail: you say the sentence means "I fear the people
bringing gifts". Why choose "the people" rather than "people"?
PB
Aaron J. Dinkin
> Just a little detail: you say the sentence means "I fear the people
> bringing gifts". Why choose "the people" rather than "people"?
No particular reason. No articles in Latin, so I added the one that came
to mind at the time.
Padraig Breathnach
I wondered if you had a particular reason in view of the fact (one of
the few things which I remember) that there are no articles in Latin.
My own style preference would be to say "I fear people bringing
gifts".
Should we be critical of Virgil on the grounds that the Greeks left,
rather than brought, the gift?
PB
Robert Bannister
If I were saying this in Macedonian, I would use the word for 'and' to express 'even'. As
someone has already pointed out, the distribution of 'and', 'also' and 'even' is
different in different languages.
--
Rob Bannister
Aaron Davies
"The horse doesn't believe you, Teucri"?
--
Aaron Davies
Save a cow, eat a vegan.
<http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,51494,00.html>