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Frost: From plane to plane
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andres c.
Aug 4, 2014, 2:28:42 PM8/4/14
to
Hello everyone. I'm having some trouble understanding the following lines of Robert Frost's poem 'From Plane to Plane':
"They were both bent on scuffling up
alluvium so pure that when a blade
to their surprise rang once on stone all day
each tried to be the first at getting in
a superstitious cry for farmer's luck--
a rivalry that made them both feel kinder."
They're two farmers -well, to hiredmen- hoeing some crops. But I can't get the "scuffling up" and, specially, the "getting in a superstitious cry for the farmer's luck". Do they try to reach that stone first because it's lucky to do so? Or because they think there's something else buried? Or...
Thanks for your help!!
Andrés
"They were both bent on scuffling up
alluvium so pure that when a blade
to their surprise rang once on stone all day
each tried to be the first at getting in
a superstitious cry for farmer's luck--
a rivalry that made them both feel kinder."
They're two farmers -well, to hiredmen- hoeing some crops. But I can't get the "scuffling up" and, specially, the "getting in a superstitious cry for the farmer's luck". Do they try to reach that stone first because it's lucky to do so? Or because they think there's something else buried? Or...
Thanks for your help!!
Andrés
Tony Cooper
Aug 4, 2014, 2:57:01 PM8/4/14
to
On Mon, 4 Aug 2014 11:28:42 -0700 (PDT), "andres c."
<driuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hello everyone. I'm having some trouble understanding the following lines of Robert Frost's poem 'From Plane to Plane':
>
>"They were both bent on scuffling up
>alluvium so pure that when a blade
>to their surprise rang once on stone all day
>each tried to be the first at getting in
>a superstitious cry for farmer's luck--
>a rivalry that made them both feel kinder."
>
>They're two farmers -well, to hiredmen- hoeing some crops. But I can't get the "scuffling up"
To hoe the ground in a hurried, awkward, and unorganized way.
<driuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hello everyone. I'm having some trouble understanding the following lines of Robert Frost's poem 'From Plane to Plane':
>
>"They were both bent on scuffling up
>alluvium so pure that when a blade
>to their surprise rang once on stone all day
>each tried to be the first at getting in
>a superstitious cry for farmer's luck--
>a rivalry that made them both feel kinder."
>
>They're two farmers -well, to hiredmen- hoeing some crops. But I can't get the "scuffling up"
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
Jerry Friedman
Aug 4, 2014, 3:28:35 PM8/4/14
to
hits a stone, the first person to cry something gets good luck. Well,
Dick has heard it, and does in part believe it.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
Aug 4, 2014, 3:41:39 PM8/4/14
to
quotation from Shakespeare is supposed to apply the superstition about
the stone. I'm just guessing that he doesn't take the superstition too
seriously.
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
Aug 4, 2014, 7:18:53 PM8/4/14
to
reader to think of the custom of wishing on a falling star, another
relatively rare event. There's a good deal of talk about the heavens
(the sun, the sign of sickness/Cygnus) in that poem.
I think he also intends a comparison between the work they are doing and
the debate they are engaged in: turning ("scuffling") up soil so free of
stones that finding a rock in it is a rare event, and debating a subject
so free of practical application, to the old man at least, that coming
to a solid conclusion is also rare.
andres c.
Aug 5, 2014, 1:39:59 PM8/5/14
to
A.
CDB
Aug 5, 2014, 5:01:57 PM8/5/14
to
On 05/08/2014 1:39 PM, andres c. wrote:
> , CDB escribi�:
I have one more observation to make, if you are interested: the title of
the poem, "From Plane to Plane", can certainly be taken as an indication
of Frost's intentions.
The poem travels across the plane of the workers on the flat earth (also
the "plain" in at least two senses -- flat, ordinary, and, maybe,
discontented, as in "plaint" or "complain"), the planes of the
astronomical and astrological heavens, the plane of manual labour and
that of the doctor's more intellectual sort, the religious plane on
which the sun, as an image of God, gives blessing and then withdraws
himself before thanks can be thought owed and the plane of familial
affection where the child's parents express their love and care with
gifts but assign the gratitude to a figure on the plane of myth so that
obligation need not be felt; and maybe others as well. There's always
more to find, in a good poem.
All these planes are shown to be one, and the truth on all of them is
the truth of willing gift and sacrifice. That may be the truth that the
plain workmen end by scuffling up.
> , CDB escribi�:
the poem, "From Plane to Plane", can certainly be taken as an indication
of Frost's intentions.
The poem travels across the plane of the workers on the flat earth (also
the "plain" in at least two senses -- flat, ordinary, and, maybe,
discontented, as in "plaint" or "complain"), the planes of the
astronomical and astrological heavens, the plane of manual labour and
that of the doctor's more intellectual sort, the religious plane on
which the sun, as an image of God, gives blessing and then withdraws
himself before thanks can be thought owed and the plane of familial
affection where the child's parents express their love and care with
gifts but assign the gratitude to a figure on the plane of myth so that
obligation need not be felt; and maybe others as well. There's always
more to find, in a good poem.
All these planes are shown to be one, and the truth on all of them is
the truth of willing gift and sacrifice. That may be the truth that the
plain workmen end by scuffling up.
Mike L
Aug 6, 2014, 5:06:13 PM8/6/14
to
--
Mike.
CDB
Aug 8, 2014, 2:47:13 PM8/8/14
to
On 06/08/2014 5:06 PM, Mike L wrote:
> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
[amateur criticism]
>> I have one more observation to make, if you are interested: the
>> title of the poem, "From Plane to Plane", can certainly be taken as
>> an indication of Frost's intentions.
>> The poem travels across the plane of the workers on the flat earth
>> (also the "plain" in at least two senses -- flat, ordinary, and,
>> maybe, discontented, as in "plaint" or "complain"), the planes of
>> the astronomical and astrological heavens, the plane of manual
>> labour and that of the doctor's more intellectual sort, the
>> religious plane on which the sun, as an image of God, gives
>> blessing and then withdraws himself before thanks can be thought
>> owed and the plane of familial affection where the child's parents
>> express their love and care with gifts but assign the gratitude to
>> a figure on the plane of myth so that obligation need not be felt;
>> and maybe others as well. There's always more to find, in a good
>> poem.
>> All these planes are shown to be one, and the truth on all of them
>> is the truth of willing gift and sacrifice. That may be the truth
>> that the plain workmen end by scuffling up.
> Alpha.
I blurted it out, not having enough time to get it right. In writing
"sacrifice", I was clumsily trying to express the neglect, even the
discarding, of the formal rewards of good work done, whether in payment,
respect, gratitude, or worship, in favour of the satisfaction of the
work itself. The workman walks back up his hoed line for the pleasure
it gives him; the doctor shows it in his demeanor as he drives home; the
other examples are invisible, but their behaviour is interpreted in the
same way. Good work is its own best reward, a more Frostian sentiment.
> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
[amateur criticism]
>> I have one more observation to make, if you are interested: the
>> title of the poem, "From Plane to Plane", can certainly be taken as
>> an indication of Frost's intentions.
>> The poem travels across the plane of the workers on the flat earth
>> (also the "plain" in at least two senses -- flat, ordinary, and,
>> maybe, discontented, as in "plaint" or "complain"), the planes of
>> the astronomical and astrological heavens, the plane of manual
>> labour and that of the doctor's more intellectual sort, the
>> religious plane on which the sun, as an image of God, gives
>> blessing and then withdraws himself before thanks can be thought
>> owed and the plane of familial affection where the child's parents
>> express their love and care with gifts but assign the gratitude to
>> a figure on the plane of myth so that obligation need not be felt;
>> and maybe others as well. There's always more to find, in a good
>> poem.
>> All these planes are shown to be one, and the truth on all of them
>> is the truth of willing gift and sacrifice. That may be the truth
>> that the plain workmen end by scuffling up.
> Alpha.
"sacrifice", I was clumsily trying to express the neglect, even the
discarding, of the formal rewards of good work done, whether in payment,
respect, gratitude, or worship, in favour of the satisfaction of the
work itself. The workman walks back up his hoed line for the pleasure
it gives him; the doctor shows it in his demeanor as he drives home; the
other examples are invisible, but their behaviour is interpreted in the
same way. Good work is its own best reward, a more Frostian sentiment.
Jerry Friedman
Aug 8, 2014, 7:25:19 PM8/8/14
to
Pike gets is that he takes breaks from his works, whether the doctor
wants him to or not.
> the doctor shows it in his demeanor as he drives home;
> the
> other examples are invisible, but their behaviour is interpreted in the
> same way. Good work is its own best reward, a more Frostian sentiment.
obvious two planes (Dick's and Pike's), but I think the obvious is
essential here. They don't let their work take them over, and Pike's
and the doctor's breaks from work, Dick's breaks from his study
(including his summer of farm work), the sun's escape from gratitude and
worship, and parents' escape from gratitude by means of Santa Claus all
have that in common. I'm having trouble seeing what else they have in
common.
Shall I go on? Or have I said anough? (I had to track down the
quotation from Milton.)
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
Aug 9, 2014, 8:35:32 AM8/9/14
to
On 08/08/2014 7:25 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
That's why I thought I ought to correct my use of "sacrifice". The sun,
for example, is worshipped but doesn't stick around to listen; the
doctor, at least in the world depicted, charges only what the patient
can pay. I suppose I could have expressed "even discard" better, as so
often.
I didn't remember that they were working for the doctor.
I can't find a copy of the poem, but my recollection is that Pike said
he took pleasure in contemplating his work as he walked back.
>> the doctor shows it in his demeanor as he drives home;
> But he's lost a patient, or at least Pike brings up the possibility.
But that's Pike being Pike; it's disputed by the student, IIRC.
>> the other examples are invisible, but their behaviour is
>> interpreted in the same way. Good work is its own best reward, a
>> more Frostian sentiment.
> You like not to mention the obvious in poetry,
It's an attempt not to bore more than inevitably by my own efforts.
> as you don't mention the obvious two planes (Dick's and Pike's), but
> I think the obvious is essential here. They don't let their work
> take them over, and Pike's and the doctor's breaks from work, Dick's
> breaks from his study (including his summer of farm work), the sun's
> escape from gratitude and worship, and parents' escape from gratitude
> by means of Santa Claus all have that in common. I'm having trouble
> seeing what else they have in common.
They are steps toward the poet's point about the rewards of work?
I didn't see a comparison between their planes as figuring into the
discovery they were making. If Dick (thank you) got a reward from his
studies in talking over Pike's head, it was more of the direct variety
than the kind of pleasure I was thinking of. Maybe he was escaping the
grateful approval of his parents.
There's a lot that I didn't discuss, as I said far above. The parallel
berween the two workers and the pair in "Death of the Hired Man" is
interesting; the seasonal rhythm of the work on many of the planes with
its annual return, that of Santa's and the doctor's efforts in winter,
or the sun's visits and Dick's farm-work in summer (for example), is
probably worth some thought. Don't want to belabour the obvious.
> Shall I go on? Or have I said anough? (I had to track down the
> quotation from Milton.)
I remember that being mentioned, but I either didn't know or don't
remember what it was.
for example, is worshipped but doesn't stick around to listen; the
doctor, at least in the world depicted, charges only what the patient
can pay. I suppose I could have expressed "even discard" better, as so
often.
I didn't remember that they were working for the doctor.
I can't find a copy of the poem, but my recollection is that Pike said
he took pleasure in contemplating his work as he walked back.
>> the doctor shows it in his demeanor as he drives home;
> But he's lost a patient, or at least Pike brings up the possibility.
>> the other examples are invisible, but their behaviour is
>> interpreted in the same way. Good work is its own best reward, a
>> more Frostian sentiment.
> You like not to mention the obvious in poetry,
> as you don't mention the obvious two planes (Dick's and Pike's), but
> I think the obvious is essential here. They don't let their work
> take them over, and Pike's and the doctor's breaks from work, Dick's
> breaks from his study (including his summer of farm work), the sun's
> escape from gratitude and worship, and parents' escape from gratitude
> by means of Santa Claus all have that in common. I'm having trouble
> seeing what else they have in common.
I didn't see a comparison between their planes as figuring into the
discovery they were making. If Dick (thank you) got a reward from his
studies in talking over Pike's head, it was more of the direct variety
than the kind of pleasure I was thinking of. Maybe he was escaping the
grateful approval of his parents.
There's a lot that I didn't discuss, as I said far above. The parallel
berween the two workers and the pair in "Death of the Hired Man" is
interesting; the seasonal rhythm of the work on many of the planes with
its annual return, that of Santa's and the doctor's efforts in winter,
or the sun's visits and Dick's farm-work in summer (for example), is
probably worth some thought. Don't want to belabour the obvious.
> Shall I go on? Or have I said anough? (I had to track down the
> quotation from Milton.)
remember what it was.
Mike L
Aug 9, 2014, 5:56:23 PM8/9/14
to
On Sat, 09 Aug 2014 08:35:32 -0400, CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 08/08/2014 7:25 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
[...].
>On 08/08/2014 7:25 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> You like not to mention the obvious in poetry,
>
>It's an attempt not to bore more than inevitably by my own efforts.
>
>> as you don't mention the obvious two planes (Dick's and Pike's), but
>> I think the obvious is essential here. They don't let their work
>> take them over, and Pike's and the doctor's breaks from work, Dick's
>> breaks from his study (including his summer of farm work), the sun's
>> escape from gratitude and worship, and parents' escape from gratitude
>> by means of Santa Claus all have that in common. I'm having trouble
>> seeing what else they have in common.
I think the obvious is essential to the best poetry. So tempting to
>> You like not to mention the obvious in poetry,
>
>It's an attempt not to bore more than inevitably by my own efforts.
>
>> as you don't mention the obvious two planes (Dick's and Pike's), but
>> I think the obvious is essential here. They don't let their work
>> take them over, and Pike's and the doctor's breaks from work, Dick's
>> breaks from his study (including his summer of farm work), the sun's
>> escape from gratitude and worship, and parents' escape from gratitude
>> by means of Santa Claus all have that in common. I'm having trouble
>> seeing what else they have in common.
write a rhythmic (or not) crossword puzzle, but it offers no easy way
in. I think Eliot is terrific, but he would be even better if he
hadn't tried so hard. Actually, nothing he wrote is as good as "My
mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun..." which as as plain as a
pikestaff.
>
[...]
--
Mike.
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