Is 'MOTHER FUCKING' sexist?
Sooyon
Or is it sexist too?
Do we need hyphen between two words?
I want to know because I do not want to use a sexist expression.
Thank you.
thebli...@my-deja.com
question first, publications that allow the term tend to spell it closed
up, that is, as one word: "motherfucker," as in "life can really be a
motherfucker," which means much the same as the phrase, "Life's a
bitch."
The term is probably the most deeply offensive obscenity in the English
language and you should be careful who you refer to that way. It is
primarily a masculine insult, playing on and ridiculing the deep
sentimental attachment men feel for their mothers: something to do with
the Madonna-Whore dichotomy, I guess. A man wants to feel that his
mother is pure and saintly (ever heard the expression "my sainted
mother"?) and yet the fact of her motherhood proves that she is sexually
experienced. Calling someone a motherfucker implies that that person has
broken one of the most universal taboos, that one has had forcible
sexual intercourse with one's mother. Being a mother-fucker implies
that you've placed yourself beyond the bounds of all conventional
decency; I guess that's why it's so frequently used by men who identify
with the "gangter" image. Octavio Paz has an essay on a Spanish
semiequivalent, the verb "chingar" (as in "chinga tu madre," "go fuck
your mother") that's very illuminating on the psychology of all this.
It's also interesting to note also that the related expressions "(you)
fuck your mother" and "I fuck your mother" are often used
interchangeably. The main implication is that one's sainted mother is a
slut. Remember what Regan says to the priest in the movie "The
Exorcist"? "Your mother sucks cocks in hell."
So I would have to say the phrase is the absolute epitome of sexism, and
not just in the sense that it is inappropriately gender-specific. Women
don't insult one another by calling each other "fatherfuckers," and it
wouldn't help the situation if they did, or used the generic
"parentfucker." A simultaneous idealization and degradation of women
specifically underlies the whole poisonous conceptual constellation.
As far as usage goes, then, you spell the term as one word to
distinguish it from literal mother-fucking (or "mother fucking," if you
follow the Chicago Manual of Style, Table 6.1). That's if you really
want to use it, which you probably shouldn't unless you really, really,
really want to insult somebody or really, really want to impress
somebody with what a motherfucking badass you are.
I expect I'll attract some heat for my own frank language here. I would
refer you to William Gass's essay, "On Being Blue" and the rhyming
phrase that is the subject of intense linguistic analysis there.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Red Valerian
>The term is probably the most deeply offensive obscenity in the English
>language and you should be careful who you refer to that way.
I tend to disagree. I'm not saying that mother-fucker has become
socially acceptable or anything, but the word 'fuck' and all of its
hyphenated variants can be heard daily in most playgrounds. (Well -
in the schools where I've taught, anyway) and seen in print in pretty
much any modern book.
However, there is one word I've never heard said aloud in any school
- no matter what the provocation, and that's 'cunt.'
I think it really is the closest thing we've got to a taboo word in
English. Irvine Welsh uses it constantly in the book 'Trainspotting'
- or rather his characters do. But I asked some Glaswegians I know
if that was an accurate representation of yoof-speak north of the
border, and they all said 'no way.'
In Scotland, as in most of the UK and in the US, the word 'cunt' is
rarely seen in print and virtually never heard spoken aloud.
Oddly enough, the cruder words for the male external genitalia are
considered fairly mild insults. We can call people dickheads and
cocksuckers with comparative impunity, but try calling someone a cunt
sometime and watch what happens.
Red V
(Still shuddering delicately from having had to write *that* word so
many times in the last few minutes. I think I'll take to my bed and
read some Jane Austen to recover.)
Lars Eighner
In our last episode <fpBk4.16$_D.1...@news.hananet.net>,
the lovely and talented "Sooyon" <cids...@yahoo.com>
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
|If you say that "I don't like that mother fucking guy.",is it just impolite?
|Or is it sexist too?
|
|Do we need hyphen between two words?
|
|I want to know because I do not want to use a sexist expression.
|Thank you.
"Motherfucker" is the most serious insult that can be tendered in
English. It is worse than impolite. In many US jurisdictions it is
recognized as "fighting words" -- an insult that may be expected
to lead immediately to physical violence.
"Motherfucking" when applied to a person is similar.
These are such serious insults that whether they are sexist or
not is rather beside the point. The denotations of the words
do not quite make sense when applied to girls or women, but
the connotations are so offensive that whether the words
are sexist or not hardly matters. The use of these words certainly
may contribute to an atmosphere which women would justifiably interpret
as hostile.
These words appear in print infreqently. The following are
possible ways of expressing them in print:
mother-fucking (adj.)
motherfucking
mother fucker (n.)
motherfucker.
--
Lars Eighner 700 Hearn #101 Austin TX 78703 eig...@io.com
(512) 474-1920 (FAX answers 6th ring) http://www.io.com/%7Eeighner/
bookstore: http://www.io.com/%7Eeighner/bookstore/
I've been seduced by the chocolate side of the force.
Jack
I find this whole posting most interesting. I certainly don't
use such language myself (well, all right, at least not aloud),
but I'm not ignorant of its presence in American English.
I wondered, though, on reading your post what part of the country
you are from. Here in southern Georgia "dickhead" and "cunt" are
offensive, but they pale by comparison with "cocksucker." The
offence is far, far greater if addressed to a man and may be
grounds for assault.
There are no doubt shades of grey here; heterosexuals and also
homosexuals on friendly and relaxed grounds in their respective
groups may use the form of address in a more or less amiable
manner. However, I would be prepared to defend myself if walking
to John Doe here and calling him a cocksucker.
Just my few thoughts.
Jack
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Lindsay Endell
>
> However, there is one word I've never heard said aloud in any school
> - no matter what the provocation, and that's 'cunt.'
>
> I think it really is the closest thing we've got to a taboo word in
> English. Irvine Welsh uses it constantly in the book 'Trainspotting'
> - or rather his characters do. But I asked some Glaswegians I know
> if that was an accurate representation of yoof-speak north of the
> border, and they all said 'no way.'
>
> In Scotland, as in most of the UK and in the US, the word 'cunt' is
> rarely seen in print and virtually never heard spoken aloud.
>
> Oddly enough, the cruder words for the male external genitalia are
> considered fairly mild insults. We can call people dickheads and
> cocksuckers with comparative impunity, but try calling someone a cunt
> sometime and watch what happens.
>
'twat' both as a verb and a noun. And 'fanny'. "Don't fanny about,
just twat it" translates as "don't mess about, just hit it", while
"he's a right twat" means "he's a right idiot". For some reason,
'cunt' is regarded as far stronger than 'twat'.
Linz
--
Oh, not really a pedant, I wouldn't say.
http://www.gofar.demon.co.uk/ - Issue 2.0 available now
Peter Renzland
>Calling someone a motherfucker implies that that person has
>broken one of the most universal taboos, that one has had forcible
>sexual intercourse with one's mother.
..
>It's also interesting to note also that the related expressions "(you)
>fuck your mother" and "I fuck your mother" are often used
>interchangeably. The main implication is that one's sainted mother is a
>slut.
"forcible", "slut"? which is it?
--
peter at dancing dot org
Christian Weisgerber
> However, there is one word I've never heard said aloud in any school
> - no matter what the provocation, and that's 'cunt.'
Isn't there significant geographical variation in this?
How much is "cunt" part of the American vocabulary, anyway?
My impression has been that "cunt" isn't that exceptionally taboo
in American usage, it's more along the lines of "that's what the
British say for 'pussy'".
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.rhein-neckar.de
Marion Gevers
>The term is probably the most deeply offensive obscenity in the English
>language and you should be careful who you refer to that way.
Specifically, in the American English language. Non-Americans don't
seem to have quite the same level of touchiness about their mothers.
For us it's an obscenity, but no worse than a great many other
insults.
Anyway, that's not the main point I wanted to make.
>the Madonna-Whore dichotomy, I guess. A man wants to feel that his
>mother is pure and saintly (ever heard the expression "my sainted
>mother"?) [...]
I meant to bring this up the last time someone used the word
"sainted". To me the phrase "my sainted mother" indicates fairly
clearly that the mother in question is dead.
Can one be both alive and sainted, in English usage?
--
Peter Moylan
Rushtown
>From: mar...@eepjm.newcastle.edu.au (Marion Gevers)
>Date: 1/29/00 11:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <870p9o$idi$1...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>
I thought "motherfucker" started with
Blacks. I also thought the expression, "She think her shit don't stink"
was a Black invention. The reason: Both
are extreme and seem to have not the least bit of wit. However I'm informed
that
the second may be from the French.
John O'Flaherty
{snips}
> Calling someone a motherfucker implies that that person has
> broken one of the most universal taboos, that one has had forcible
> sexual intercourse with one's mother.
I don't see the idea of forcible in the word. In fact, if forcible were
implied, that would let mom off the hook as to being a slut, no?
john
Ool
> Oh, I've seen it, don't worry. But far more often I hear people use
> 'twat' both as a verb and a noun. And 'fanny'. "Don't fanny about,
> just twat it" translates as "don't mess about, just hit it", while
> "he's a right twat" means "he's a right idiot". For some reason,
> 'cunt' is regarded as far stronger than 'twat'.
Which brings us to something that's bothered ME since puberty:
Is "TWAT" onomatopoeic?
(-:
--
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('__`> You Have Nothing to Lose But Your Sinews."
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Ethan A. Hitchcock
>In article <fpBk4.16$_D.1...@news.hananet.net>,
> "Sooyon" <cids...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> If you say that "I don't like that mother fucking guy.",is it just
>impolite?
>> Or is it sexist too?
>>
>> Do we need hyphen between two words?
>>
>> I want to know because I do not want to use a sexist expression.
>> Thank you.
>>
>These are both really interesting questions. To take your second
>question first, publications that allow the term tend to spell it closed
>up, that is, as one word: "motherfucker," as in "life can really be a
>motherfucker," which means much the same as the phrase, "Life's a
>bitch."
>
>The term is probably the most deeply offensive obscenity in the English
>language and you should be careful who you refer to that way. It is
>primarily a masculine insult, playing on and ridiculing the deep
>sentimental attachment men feel for their mothers: something to do with
>the Madonna-Whore dichotomy, I guess. A man wants to feel that his
>mother is pure and saintly (ever heard the expression "my sainted
>mother"?) and yet the fact of her motherhood proves that she is sexually
>experienced. Calling someone a motherfucker implies that that person has
>broken one of the most universal taboos, that one has had forcible
>sexual intercourse with one's mother. Being a mother-fucker implies
>that you've placed yourself beyond the bounds of all conventional
>decency; I guess that's why it's so frequently used by men who identify
>with the "gangter" image. Octavio Paz has an essay on a Spanish
>semiequivalent, the verb "chingar" (as in "chinga tu madre," "go fuck
>your mother") that's very illuminating on the psychology of all this.
>It's also interesting to note also that the related expressions "(you)
>fuck your mother" and "I fuck your mother" are often used
>interchangeably. The main implication is that one's sainted mother is a
>slut. Remember what Regan says to the priest in the movie "The
>Exorcist"? "Your mother sucks cocks in hell."
>
>So I would have to say the phrase is the absolute epitome of sexism, and
Perhaps you meant "pinnacle" - "absolute" is superfluous modifying
"epitome" and I get the impression you were expressing the idea of
"zenith" rather than median or best example.
Ethan A. Hitchcock
wrote:
>If you say that "I don't like that mother fucking guy.",is it just impolite?
>Or is it sexist too?
>
>Do we need hyphen between two words?
>
>I want to know because I do not want to use a sexist expression.
>Thank you.
>
Interesting! I don't believe "mother fucking" is a sexist phrase, per
se. In the example cited the phrase is an intensifier which could just
as easily have been applied to a woman i.e., That mother fucking bitch
is nagging me again!
In the usage cited the speaker is not implying that the "guy" is
actually having sexual relations with his mother. Rather the phrase is
being used to show the level of contempt the speaker has for this
individual.
I don't believe "mother fucker" is used to express that ones mother is
not chaste. There are expressions that question the mother's chastity,
but those seem to refer to the target being a bastard - I recall an
expression, but not the words, that was used in Egypt to loosely mean:
Son of a thousand fathers.
-
Ethan A. Hitchcock
tHE qUEEN bEE
>If you say that "I don't like that mother fucking guy.",is it
>just impolite? Or is it sexist too?
Unless you're open to the idea of a "father fucking guy", I
don't think it's sexist, but VERY impolite indeed.
>Do we need hyphen between two words?
Why add unnecessary puncuation? ..oO(Unless you are me)
>I want to know because I do not want to use a sexist expression.
That's very noble of you.
qUEENIE
Bob Bridges
---
Bob Bridges, rhb...@attglobal.net, 336 621-6487
/* The horror of the Same Old Thing is one of the most valuable passions we have produced in the human heart -- an endless source of heresies in religion, folly in counsel, infidelity in marriage, and inconstancy in friendship. -advice to a tempter, from The Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis */
--- Peter Renzland wrote:
> "forcible", "slut"? which is it?
> --- On Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:46:56 GMT, thebli...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >Calling someone a motherfucker implies that that person has
> >broken one of the most universal taboos, that one has had forcible
> >sexual intercourse with one's mother.
> ..
Bob Bridges
---
Bob Bridges, rhb...@attglobal.net, 336 621-6487
/* The horror of the Same Old Thing is one of the most valuable passions we have produced in the human heart -- an endless source of heresies in religion, folly in counsel, infidelity in marriage, and inconstancy in friendship. -advice to a tempter, from The Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis */
--- Lindsay Endell wrote:
> ...far more often I hear people use 'twat' both as a verb and a noun. And 'fanny'. "Don't fanny about, just twat it" translates as "don't mess about, just hit it"...
Bob Bridges
---
Bob Bridges, rhb...@attglobal.net, 336 621-6487
/* The horror of the Same Old Thing is one of the most valuable passions we have produced in the human heart -- an endless source of heresies in religion, folly in counsel, infidelity in marriage, and inconstancy in friendship. -advice to a tempter, from The Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis */
--- Red Valerian wrote:
> I tend to disagree. I'm not saying that mother-fucker has become
> socially acceptable or anything, but the word 'fuck' and all of its
> hyphenated variants can be heard daily in most playgrounds. (Well -
> in the schools where I've taught, anyway) and seen in print in pretty
> much any modern book.
>
> However, there is one word I've never heard said aloud in any school
> - no matter what the provocation, and that's 'cunt.'
>
> (Still shuddering delicately from having had to write *that* word so
> many times in the last few minutes. I think I'll take to my bed and
> read some Jane Austen to recover.)
Lindsay Endell
>
> --- Lindsay Endell wrote:
> > ...far more often I hear people use 'twat' both as a verb and a noun. And 'fanny'. "Don't fanny about, just twat it" translates as "don't mess about, just hit it"...
>
> > --- Red Valerian wrote:
> > > - no matter what the provocation, and that's 'cunt.'
> Now that's interesting. I'm still getting over the revelation that "fanny" is tabu in England. In the US it means something like "cute little butt", as in (to a young child of either sex) "you get to bed right this instant or I'm gonna swat your fanny".
>
Bob, I've reformatted your text - it should go underneath the quoted
material rather than above. Your lines look a bit long too, but that
could be my newsreader rather than your set-up.
I'd not say that fanny was tabu in the UK. But it definitely doesn't
refer to the same part of the anatomy as in the US.
James Follett
Mother fucking isn't sexist; it's just sex. Relatively speaking.
--
James Follett -- novelist http://www.davew.demon.co.uk
Peter Renzland
>
>Mother fucking isn't sexist; it's just sex. Relatively speaking.
I'm still waiting for someone to call me that, so I can reply:
"You think I'm your father. Thankfully, you're mistaken."
peter at renzland dot org
bruce bowser
> If you say that "I don't like that mother fucking guy.",is it just impolite?
> Or is it sexist too?
>
> Is 'MOTHER FUCKING' sexist?
Not if you spell it 'mutherfucking'.