'Yummy mummy' and 'MILF' - distinction without a difference?
Halcombe
I sense (from that infallible corpus, Google!) that a 'yummy mummy'
would tend to be either pregnant, or with a small child or children.
Whereas a MILF ('mother I'd like to fuck', of course) would tend to be
older, with teenage children.
(The TV MILF of all time, by me, is Joyce, the mother of Buffy in
'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' - though most fans were taken in my that
dowdy exterior, I'm afraid. Red herring.
Monk's replacement sidekick - played by Traylor Howard (I assume her
parents wanted to make marriage as hard for her as possible: no Messrs
Park or Home need apply, for a start!) - is one two. (Incredibly cute
kid she was given, too.))
MILF is certainly more explicit; all sorts of things may be 'yummy'
that we don't want to fuck. (Indeed, that it would be anatomically or
philosophically impossible to fuck.)
I'm not sure whether 'yummy mummy' carries more of an implication (by
being not essentially sexual) that the yumminess of the mummy is, in
part, supplied by the cuteness of her children. Whereas MILF - well,
you wouldn't want to be thinking of her children at the same time as
thinking...
Vinny Burgoo
>Are these synonymous?
>
>I sense (from that infallible corpus, Google!) that a 'yummy mummy'
>would tend to be either pregnant, or with a small child or children.
>
>Whereas a MILF ('mother I'd like to fuck', of course) would tend to be
>older, with teenage children.
[snip]
>I'm not sure whether 'yummy mummy' carries more of an implication (by
>being not essentially sexual) that the yumminess of the mummy is, in
>part, supplied by the cuteness of her children. Whereas MILF - well,
>you wouldn't want to be thinking of her children at the same time as
>thinking...
I get the impression (perhaps from my own inner recesses) that Yummy
Mummy is restricted to fairly posh, well-dressed and youngish mummies
whose husbands are off in the City. They might be up for it but even if
they're not they are a joy to behold.
MILF? After 20 years online, last year I finally steeled myself to cast
all scruples aside and surge past the "This isn't right" feeling that
has assailed me whenever I have cum across online porn in the past and
purposefully go looking for the stuff. (I was a stunned mullet for
several weeks. I couldn't walk past any woman in the street without
seeing her lips move.) MILF was everywhere. I though it had something to
do with - well, I didn't know it meant what you say it means, anyway.
Thanks for the clarification.
--
V
THE Entity
wrought:
>I get the impression (perhaps from my own inner recesses) that Yummy
>Mummy is restricted to fairly posh, well-dressed and youngish mummies
>whose husbands are off in the City. They might be up for it but even if
>they're not they are a joy to behold.
Are they perhaps the BrE equivalent of "soccer moms"?
--
THE Entity
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
...
> I'm not sure whether 'yummy mummy' carries more of an implication (by
> being not essentially sexual) that the yumminess of the mummy is, in
> part, supplied by the cuteness of her children. Whereas MILF - well,
> you wouldn't want to be thinking of her children at the same time as
> thinking...
Apparently that depends. A fellow student once surprised me by
mentioning his fondness for porn movies about pregnant women. He cited
the title /Ready to Drop/. My suprise increased to astonishment when I
reflected that there were enough people with that taste to make the
sub-genre profitable. So I assume there are also people who would want
to be thinking of the children. As they say (that means I don't know
the source), if you can imagine it, there are people who do it.
--
Jerry Friedman
Salvatore Volatile
> Monk's replacement sidekick - played by Traylor Howard (I assume her
> parents wanted to make marriage as hard for her as possible: no Messrs
> Park or Home need apply, for a start!) - is one two.
Oy!
Well, Traylor Howard is from Orlando, Fla., and people down there
(including those that live in the unincorporated parts) give
their kids strange names.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Salvatore Volatile
Certainly "football mum" isn't the equivalent, since in the UK 'football'
is a class-universal sport (or if anything is associated with the working
class).
--
Salvatore Volatile
Default User
The IMDB says it is her mother's maiden name.
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
Mike Lyle
Of course the attractiveness of the children is part of it. It's
adaptive to find young mothers more attractive than untried breeders,
and the more so if their children are symmetrical, healthy, and well
looked after. This doesn't mean you actually think about the offspring
when laying the foundations of the next one.
--
Mike.
Salvatore Volatile
> Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>
>> Halcombe wrote:
>> > Monk's replacement sidekick - played by Traylor Howard (I assume her
>> > parents wanted to make marriage as hard for her as possible: no
>> > Messrs Park or Home need apply, for a start!) - is one two.
>>
>> Oy!
>>
>> Well, Traylor Howard is from Orlando, Fla., and people down there
>> (including those that live in the unincorporated parts) give
>> their kids strange names.
>
> The IMDB says it is her mother's maiden name.
Orlando. Figures.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Default User
> Orlando. Figures.
Is that one of those places all filled up with Ex-New Yorkers?
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>
>> Halcombe wrote:
>> > Monk's replacement sidekick - played by Traylor Howard (I assume her
>> > parents wanted to make marriage as hard for her as possible: no
>> > Messrs Park or Home need apply, for a start!) - is one two.
>>
>> Oy!
>>
>> Well, Traylor Howard is from Orlando, Fla., and people down there
>> (including those that live in the unincorporated parts) give
>> their kids strange names.
>
>The IMDB says it is her mother's maiden name.
Something we in this family think is a fine thing, indeed. My
daughter (although not born in Orlando) has her mother's maiden name
as her first name.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Salvatore Volatile
> Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>
>> Orlando. Figures.
>
> Is that one of those places all filled up with Ex-New Yorkers?
ex-Midwesterners.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Tony Cooper
wrote:
Not being a listener to Rush Limbaugh, I'm not really sure what a
"soccer mom" is. I think he originated, or at least popularized, the
expression.
Isn't it just a wife with children, and a woman who does not work
outside of the home? Is being well-to-do essential to being a soccer
mom? Would the wife of, say, a garage mechanic be a soccer mom if she
has kids and is a stay-at-home mother?
Laura F. Spira
If my daughter had her mother's maiden name as her first name, she would
have been called Frank Spira. I don't think she would have been too pleased.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Not being a listener to Rush Limbaugh, I'm not really sure what a
> "soccer mom" is. I think he originated, or at least popularized,
> the expression.
>
> Isn't it just a wife with children, and a woman who does not work
> outside of the home? Is being well-to-do essential to being a
> soccer mom? Would the wife of, say, a garage mechanic be a soccer
> mom if she has kids and is a stay-at-home mother?
I don't think it has anything to do with not working outside the home.
Rather, it's a woman who spends much of her time shuttling her kids to
various events (canonically, practices and games). There's a bit of
an implication of some money, or at least "suburban", but not well-to-
do. Well-to-do moms have people to take their kids where they need to
go.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |First Law of Anthropology:
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | If they're doing something you
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | don't understand, it's either an
| isolated lunatic, a religious
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | ritual, or art.
(650)857-7572
Matthew Huntbach
> In alt.usage.english, Halcombe wrote:
>> I'm not sure whether 'yummy mummy' carries more of an implication (by
>> being not essentially sexual) that the yumminess of the mummy is, in
>> part, supplied by the cuteness of her children. Whereas MILF - well,
>> you wouldn't want to be thinking of her children at the same time as
>> thinking...
> I get the impression (perhaps from my own inner recesses) that Yummy Mummy is
> restricted to fairly posh, well-dressed and youngish mummies whose husbands
> are off in the City. They might be up for it but even if they're not they are
> a joy to behold.
Yes, I think "yummy mummy" implies both cute and posh, but not overtly
sexual. The essence is that the woman has managed to retain her youthful
looks, probably due to having a nanny who does all the hard work. A mum
from a poorer background would most likely have run to fat or have a thin
and haggard look and thus most definitely would not be "yummy". For some
reason, black women seem to be able to do a better job of remaining
attractive and being mums, but they don't fall into the category of "yummy
mummy".
Matthew Huntbach
Father Ignatius
Tony Cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> typed:
> Not being a listener to Rush Limbaugh, I'm not really sure what a
> "soccer mom" is. I think he originated, or at least popularized, the
> expression.
>
> Isn't it just a wife with children, and a woman who does not work
> outside of the home? Is being well-to-do essential to being a soccer
> mom? Would the wife of, say, a garage mechanic be a soccer mom if she
> has kids and is a stay-at-home mother?
I seem to have picked up from somewhere that driving an SUV is a
pre-requisite.
--
Nat
"The process of ripening in cheese is a little like the human
acquisition of wisdom and maturity; both processes involve a
recognition, or incorporation of the fact that life is an incurable
disease with a hundred per cent mortality rate---a slow variety of
death."
--John Lanchester, /The Debt to Pleasure/
Father Ignatius
Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> typed:
> Of course the attractiveness of the children is part of it. It's
> adaptive to find young mothers more attractive than untried breeders,
> and the more so if their children are symmetrical, healthy, and well
> looked after. This doesn't mean you actually think about the offspring
> when laying the foundations of the next one.
Is "laying the foundations" what the young folk are calling it nowadays?
Spehro Pefhany
<FatherI...@ANTISPAMananzi.co.za> wrote:
>In news:mmcg5254pdnoudd93...@4ax.com,
>Tony Cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> typed:
>
>> Not being a listener to Rush Limbaugh, I'm not really sure what a
>> "soccer mom" is. I think he originated, or at least popularized, the
>> expression.
>>
>> Isn't it just a wife with children, and a woman who does not work
>> outside of the home? Is being well-to-do essential to being a soccer
>> mom? Would the wife of, say, a garage mechanic be a soccer mom if she
>> has kids and is a stay-at-home mother?
>
>I seem to have picked up from somewhere that driving an SUV is a
>pre-requisite.
Shirley driving a Volvo wagon would suffice, would it not?
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Salvatore Volatile
> Tony Cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>> Not being a listener to Rush Limbaugh, I'm not really sure what a
>> "soccer mom" is. I think he originated, or at least popularized,
>> the expression.
I don't think so. I think it was primarily popularized by political
journalists in election coverage during the 1990s (well, I suppose
Limbaugh is something of an untraditional journalist), much as "yuppie"
was initially popularized during coverage of Gary Hart's presidential
campaign in 1984. It was appropriated from the marketing professionals
who come up with fanciful names for particular consumer segments.
>
>> Isn't it just a wife with children, and a woman who does not work
>> outside of the home? Is being well-to-do essential to being a
>> soccer mom? Would the wife of, say, a garage mechanic be a soccer
>> mom if she has kids and is a stay-at-home mother?
No. That woman might, however, be the wife of a "Nascar dad", a
constituency that may be more important now. In general, I'd say, Nascar
dads aren't married to soccer moms because of a class difference, but
there's got to be a fair amount of overlap in the Venn diagram. There are
lower-class versions or subsets of soccer moms -- but I'd suspect that
their kids would be less likely to play soccer. The reason why the
stereotype focuses on soccer is that soccer traditionally isn't something
that regular American kids would play (unlike baseball, etc.) -- soccer is
a trendy thing that permits prosperous suburban parents to express their
social differences from other Americans.
> I don't think it has anything to do with not working outside the home.
I disagree, Erk. I think it strongly assumes, and perhaps requires, that
the wife doesn't work, at least not full-time. Part of the interestingness
of the stereotype is that it's perceived as being related to an
abandonment of or departure from the earlier
feminist-associated ideal of women having careers and so forth.
> Rather, it's a woman who spends much of her time shuttling her kids to
> various events (canonically, practices and games). There's a bit of
> an implication of some money, or at least "suburban", but not well-to-
> do. Well-to-do moms have people to take their kids where they need to
> go.
I think that's right. The family has to be well-to-do enough to be able
to afford paying for all these non-free activities that the kids are
forced to engage in (soccer isn't free, is it?), and has to be well-to-do
enough to be able to live in the suburbs rather than, say, an urban
housing project (= ApproxBrE "counciw estate") or a traylor park.
A woman who actually works full-time really couldn't do all the things
that a soccer mom feels she has to do, I don't think (unless perhaps she
had an extremely flexible job allowing her to work at home and set her own
hours, say).
But there's no implication of wealth per se. Indeed, the soccer moms, to
be numerous enough and concerned enough about basic political issues to
matter to campaign professionals, have to have some economic anxiety.
My sister conforms pretty accurately to the stereotype, so I have some
insight into this. I sense that my sister feels compelled to keep her
kids as busy as possible, for reasons I don't understand at all -- I have
a lot of fond memories of being free to just do *nothing* when I was a
kid. There might be a little of that Puritan American "an idle mind is
the devil's workshop" fear. There might be a heightened amount of
keeping-up-with-Joneses for suburbanites, ironically enough since you
have less contact with your immediate neighbors. But there's also this
strange GenAm cultural emphasis on sports being preferable to other
activities (e.g., music or artistic activities) (although, to be fair to
my sister, she's tried to get her kids involved in music lessons and
things like that too).
--
Salvatore Volatile
Salvatore Volatile
But, as I've often pointed out to you, Coop, though you've never fully
acknowledged the truth of it, you're (I'm speaking of the culture or
socioeconomic quasicultural subgroup to which you belong, which engages in
this questionable practice) inconsistent in your application of this
so-called "fine thing". You only use the maiden name as a first name
where you're convinced that it is sufficiently feminine-sounding under
traditional or (I think more often) current/evolving
presumptively-dominant Anglo-American cultural standards. That's a true
statement of the practice.
You see application of this with "Traylor". Although it doesn't sound
particularly feminine to me, it was probably deemed acceptable because
American parents in certain relevant socioeconomic quasicultural
subgroups were already starting to give girls the trendy
name "Taylor" (why is unclear, and it appears to be after the waning of
influence of _Planet of the Apes_).
--
Salvatore Volatile
Spehro Pefhany
<FatherI...@ANTISPAMananzi.co.za> wrote:
>In news:1146604587.3...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
>Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> typed:
>
>> Of course the attractiveness of the children is part of it. It's
>> adaptive to find young mothers more attractive than untried breeders,
>> and the more so if their children are symmetrical, healthy, and well
>> looked after. This doesn't mean you actually think about the offspring
>> when laying the foundations of the next one.
>
>Is "laying the foundations" what the young folk are calling it nowadays?
Nowadays, a moisture barrier may be worth considering.
Mike Lyle
Salvatore Volatile wrote:
[...]
> stereotype focuses on soccer is that soccer traditionally isn't something
> that regular American kids would play (unlike baseball, etc.) -- soccer is
> a trendy thing that permits prosperous suburban parents to express their
> social differences from other Americans.
>
On the other hand, maybe the children just like it. And I doubt if many
Latin-American-Americans think of it as a game for the prosperous. Its
success must have a lot to do with its availability to all, since the
only equipment needed is not even a ball -- an empty tin or a stone
will do. If you've got a wall and an old tennis ball, you can even play
it by yourself
--
Mike.
Tony Cooper
<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On 2 May 2006 21:10:13 GMT, "Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>The IMDB says it is her mother's maiden name.
>>
>> Something we in this family think is a fine thing, indeed. My
>> daughter (although not born in Orlando) has her mother's maiden name
>> as her first name.
>
>But, as I've often pointed out to you, Coop, though you've never fully
>acknowledged the truth of it, you're (I'm speaking of the culture or
>socioeconomic quasicultural subgroup to which you belong, which engages in
>this questionable practice) inconsistent in your application of this
>so-called "fine thing". You only use the maiden name as a first name
>where you're convinced that it is sufficiently feminine-sounding under
>traditional or (I think more often) current/evolving
>presumptively-dominant Anglo-American cultural standards. That's a true
>statement of the practice.
I have been 100% consistent. Had one daughter. Did it.
Tony Cooper
<FatherI...@ANTISPAMananzi.co.za> wrote:
>In news:mmcg5254pdnoudd93...@4ax.com,
>Tony Cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> typed:
>
>> Not being a listener to Rush Limbaugh, I'm not really sure what a
>> "soccer mom" is. I think he originated, or at least popularized, the
>> expression.
>>
>> Isn't it just a wife with children, and a woman who does not work
>> outside of the home? Is being well-to-do essential to being a soccer
>> mom? Would the wife of, say, a garage mechanic be a soccer mom if she
>> has kids and is a stay-at-home mother?
>
>I seem to have picked up from somewhere that driving an SUV is a
>pre-requisite.
When I started hearing the term, the vehicle of choice among mothers
with children in school was the minivan. The SUV may have gained on
the minivan, but - from what I see - the minivan still leads as the
vehicle of choice of with this group.
Otherponders should remember that the minivan is not a "van" in their
concept of "van".
Tony Cooper
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>Tony Cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>> Not being a listener to Rush Limbaugh, I'm not really sure what a
>> "soccer mom" is. I think he originated, or at least popularized,
>> the expression.
>>
>> Isn't it just a wife with children, and a woman who does not work
>> outside of the home? Is being well-to-do essential to being a
>> soccer mom? Would the wife of, say, a garage mechanic be a soccer
>> mom if she has kids and is a stay-at-home mother?
>
>I don't think it has anything to do with not working outside the home.
>Rather, it's a woman who spends much of her time shuttling her kids to
>various events (canonically, practices and games). There's a bit of
>an implication of some money, or at least "suburban", but not well-to-
>do. Well-to-do moms have people to take their kids where they need to
>go.
While I don't know how Rush uses the term, I think it is essential
that the mother not work outside the home in able to be able to
shuttle the kids to the events. A working mother is at work during
the time the events take place.
I drive by the practice fields during the day and see the lots full of
cars and the moms either gathered on the sidelines or sitting in
groups chatting. I assume these are the soccer moms that Rush refers
to.
Tony Cooper
From a Florida perspective, I think you are behind the times.
"Traditional" only works when you extend the time line. Soccer has
been as popular as any other field game for a long enough period of
time here to become "traditional".
The sports alternatives to soccer are youth football and baseball.
The pre-high school kids are playing soccer just as their older
brothers and sisters did. Soccer is gaining because both girls and
boys play soccer. While there are female football and baseball
programs, the participation is minimal compared to soccer.
There are two types of sports participation: the neighborhood pick-up
game and the organized program. Football and baseball may lead in the
first category, but soccer leads (here) in the second. It is the
organized program where the mom shuttles the kids, so it would be
"soccer mom" rather than the Pop Warner football mom.
What I see is organized soccer programs for kids from, say, six years
old up to high school. Football and baseball become more
"traditional" at the high school level where the kids are less likely
to need to be driven to practices and games.
Since "shuttling" is part of the (term) mom thing, then it would be
"soccer mom".
THE Entity
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrought:
>The SUV may have gained on
>the minivan, but - from what I see - the minivan still leads as the
>vehicle of choice of with this group.
>
>Otherponders should remember that the minivan is not a "van" in their
>concept of "van".
Not one of these, then?
www.bobleroi.co.uk/ScrapBook/CarsMotoring/Willow.jpg
--
THE Entity
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>On Wed, 03 May 2006 13:04:39 GMT, Tony Cooper
That looks more like what I would call a station wagon.
This: http://tinyurl.com/nxuc9 produces many views of what we
understand a minivan to be.
Default User
Oh, so a NICE place.
the Omrud
> MILF is certainly more explicit; all sorts of things may be 'yummy'
> that we don't want to fuck. (Indeed, that it would be anatomically or
> philosophically impossible to fuck.)
I'd just like to stand up for the term MILT, which allows one to
consider oneself superior. An important contribution to personal
well-being, I am sure you will agree.
What? Oh, MILT. Mothers In Leather Trousers. Here in Cheshire we
have cafes designated for their use during the working day, so that
they can block up the aisles with their buggies without disturbing
honest folk.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
Laura F. Spira
I think Linz may qualify as one of those, although I don't think she
spends the working day in cafes.
THE Entity
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrought:
>On Wed, 03 May 2006 15:34:44 +0200, THE Entity <ggu...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 03 May 2006 13:04:39 GMT, Tony Cooper
>><tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrought:
>>
>>>The SUV may have gained on
>>>the minivan, but - from what I see - the minivan still leads as the
>>>vehicle of choice of with this group.
>>>
>>>Otherponders should remember that the minivan is not a "van" in their
>>>concept of "van".
>>
>>Not one of these, then?
>>
>>www.bobleroi.co.uk/ScrapBook/CarsMotoring/Willow.jpg
>
>That looks more like what I would call a station wagon.
'Twas but a joke. It's a Mini van.
--
THE Entity
the Omrud
In which case she's not actually a MILT, but merely a mother wearing
leather trousers. The clothing is a necessary but insufficient
condition.
Evan Kirshenbaum
When I was growing up, we used a sixteen inch softball (slightly
softer than a rock) and played in an alley with a back-of-store wall
on one side and backyard fences on the other.
But for *organized* soccer, you also need a largish stretch of
reasonably-well-maintained grass, something that wasn't exactly common
in Chicago, at least, when I was growing up, which is quite likely the
other reason for the suburban connotation. Also, if the kids can just
walk to practice the way we walked to organized baseball, you don't
need a "soccer mom" to take them. So there's a connotation of at
least driving their kids across town to the soccer field.
Around here, soccer is quite popular with the kids. But even there,
it appears to be seen as a largely organized sport. Kids are far more
likely to play pick-up baseball or basketball, and while footballs and
basketballs get brought to school, I don't see kids playing soccer
there while waiting for class to start. But with the heavily Hispanic
population here, it's certainly not seen as in any way tied to money.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |A burro is an ass. A burrow is a
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |hole in the ground. As a
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |journalist, you are expected to
|know the difference.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | UPI Stylebook
(650)857-7572
Mike Barnes
>On Wed, 03 May 2006 14:09:54 GMT, Tony Cooper
><tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrought:
>
>>On Wed, 03 May 2006 15:34:44 +0200, THE Entity <ggu...@yahoo.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 03 May 2006 13:04:39 GMT, Tony Cooper
>>><tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrought:
>>>
>>>>concept of "van".
>>>
>>>Not one of these, then?
>>>
>>>www.bobleroi.co.uk/ScrapBook/CarsMotoring/Willow.jpg
>>
>>That looks more like what I would call a station wagon.
>
>'Twas but a joke. It's a Mini van.
British readers might like to hear about the Talivan.
http://www.abd.org.uk/talivan.htm
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Graeme Thomas
GONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes
>If my daughter had her mother's maiden name as her first name, she would
>have been called Frank Spira. I don't think she would have been too pleased.
Since when have parents taken their offspring's potential views into
account when selecting names?
My favourite example of this naming scheme, and why it shouldn't be
used, comes from the former Arsenal goalkeeper and TV presenter, Bob
Wilson. He was named after his grandmother's maiden name, and thus went
officially as Robert Primrose Wilson. He kept that very quiet in his
days as a player.
--
Graeme Thomas
THE Entity
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrought:
>When I was growing up, we used a sixteen inch softball (slightly
>softer than a rock) and played in an alley with a back-of-store wall
>on one side and backyard fences on the other.
>
>But for *organized* soccer, you also need a largish stretch of
>reasonably-well-maintained grass, something that wasn't exactly common
>in Chicago, at least, when I was growing up, which is quite likely the
>other reason for the suburban connotation.
Couldn't you have played five-a-side on a basketball court?
Grass pitches are also mostly a luxury in countries with a much
stronger footballing tradition than the US. Many of the world's best
players are from poor inner-city areas -- slums in a good many cases.
Not every Brazilian kid gets to spend all day on Copacabana beach. As
Mike [snipped] said, all you need is a ball and a wall.
>Also, if the kids can just
>walk to practice the way we walked to organized baseball, you don't
>need a "soccer mom" to take them. So there's a connotation of at
>least driving their kids across town to the soccer field.
>
>Around here, soccer is quite popular with the kids. But even there,
>it appears to be seen as a largely organized sport. Kids are far more
>likely to play pick-up baseball or basketball, and while footballs and
>basketballs get brought to school, I don't see kids playing soccer
>there while waiting for class to start. But with the heavily Hispanic
>population here, it's certainly not seen as in any way tied to money.
This is something that is happening in Spain, too, and I don't much
care for. I'm not sure it's better for an 8-year-old who likes but not
loves football (few if any chances of becoming a professional as an
adult, in other words) to play in a team and get shouted at and
substituted, usually in tears, if he screws up, than it is to play
"attack and defence" with your mates. It probably makes life easier
for talent scouts, but I don't think it's much more fun for the kids.
--
THE Entity
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Wed, 03 May 2006 09:41:59 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
> <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrought:
>
>>When I was growing up, we used a sixteen inch softball (slightly
>>softer than a rock) and played in an alley with a back-of-store wall
>>on one side and backyard fences on the other.
>>
>>But for *organized* soccer, you also need a largish stretch of
>>reasonably-well-maintained grass, something that wasn't exactly
>>common in Chicago, at least, when I was growing up, which is quite
>>likely the other reason for the suburban connotation.
>
> Couldn't you have played five-a-side on a basketball court?
Oh, for pick-up games you could. We'd have been more likely to play
in the front yards or in the parking lot behind the store at the end
of the block, if not at the local park (if nobody was playing baseball
there). But for an actual league, nobody's going to pay to have their
kids play on a basketball court. Besides, of course, the fact that
the basketball court is being used by kids playing basketball.
> Grass pitches are also mostly a luxury in countries with a much
> stronger footballing tradition than the US. Many of the world's
> best players are from poor inner-city areas -- slums in a good many
> cases. Not every Brazilian kid gets to spend all day on Copacabana
> beach. As Mike [snipped] said, all you need is a ball and a wall.
Sure. The dynamics are different. But the "soccer mom" demographic
pertains to the way things are here. They may have a lot of moms of
soccer-playing kids in Brazil, but they probably don't have a whole
lot of "soccer moms".
>>Around here, soccer is quite popular with the kids. But even there,
>>it appears to be seen as a largely organized sport. Kids are far
>>more likely to play pick-up baseball or basketball, and while
>>footballs and basketballs get brought to school, I don't see kids
>>playing soccer there while waiting for class to start. But with the
>>heavily Hispanic population here, it's certainly not seen as in any
>>way tied to money.
>
> This is something that is happening in Spain, too, and I don't much
> care for. I'm not sure it's better for an 8-year-old who likes but
> not loves football (few if any chances of becoming a professional as
> an adult, in other words) to play in a team and get shouted at and
> substituted, usually in tears, if he screws up, than it is to play
> "attack and defence" with your mates. It probably makes life easier
> for talent scouts, but I don't think it's much more fun for the
> kids.
Having been involved as a player, coach, ref, and parent for youth
baseball, basketball, and soccer, I see value to both organized and
unorganized sports. The main advantage to organized sports is that
you get a chance to be taught the fundamentals. If you're a good
player at 7, 8, or 9, and you only play unorganized games chances are
that you've learned what it takes to be better than the 8-, 9-, and
10-year-olds you play against. This almost certainly includes a lot
of bad habits. A good coach will teach you things that might not seem
natural now, but which will be required when you're 12, 15, or 18 and
playing against other kids who also were good (likely better)
players. True, if you're really good, you will probably be able to
pick it up later, and if you're really really good, you might be able
to get away without changing, but the odds are against you, and it
will probably result in you giving up before you would otherwise have
had to.
If, on the other hand, you're not one of the really good players at an
early age, in an unorganized game the other kids will let you know it,
while a good coach will work with you to develop your skills and find
a way that you can fit in and even, occasionally, help your team out.
(In the leagues I've been involved in, any coach who got a player in
tears by shouting at them for screwing up would be in big trouble,
especially if the kid's basic talent level wouldn't lead you to expect
more. "I know you can do better than that", when reasonable, is fine,
but yelling at a kid for something they haven't mastered yet is way
over the line.)
The other big advantage to organized sports is that you get practices
rather than just games. In my practices, I can go over a single
skill in isolation, again and again, until an individual kid does it
right several times and, importantly, learns what it feels like to do
it right. This builds up muscle memory. In a game, the situation
might come up once--or it might not--and the kid gets one chance to
show whether they know it. If they don't, it will be so long until
the next time they try that they won't be able to remember how they
did it before and will probably do the same thing again. As I tell my
kids, "In the game, you do what feels natural. In practice, you do it
right, and you do it again and again until what's right feels
natural."
I've been coaching baseball for three years now, starting with
5-year-olds. I don't yell at my kids, and I don't punish them for
making mistakes. But I do work with them, and the increase in level
of play, in decision making, in teamwork, in good habits, and in
understanding the game on a game-by-game basis or over the course of a
season is often truly astounding.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |This isn't good. I've seen good,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |and it didn't look anything like
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |this.
| MST3K
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Mike Lyle
> > > What? Oh, MILT. Mothers In Leather Trousers. Here in Cheshire we
> > > have cafes designated for their use during the working day, so that
> > > they can block up the aisles with their buggies without disturbing
> > > honest folk.
> >
> > I think Linz may qualify as one of those, although I don't think she
> > spends the working day in cafes.
>
> In which case she's not actually a MILT, but merely a mother wearing
> leather trousers. The clothing is a necessary but insufficient
> condition.
Linz does not, I trow, meet the other qualifying condition, which seems
to me to be the habit of sending one's nine-year-old daughter to school
dressed as a lap dancer.
--
Mike.
Salvatore Volatile
I don't doubt that increases in immigration from Latin America to the US
have contributed to a general increase in interest in soccer, but it's a
different sort of soccer in that case. The soccer of the soccer moms'
kids is anything but a "sport available to all".
--
Salvatore Volatile
Salvatore Volatile
> On Wed, 3 May 2006 11:54:06 +0000 (UTC), Salvatore Volatile
><m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>No. That woman might, however, be the wife of a "Nascar dad", a
>>constituency that may be more important now. In general, I'd say, Nascar
>>dads aren't married to soccer moms because of a class difference, but
>>there's got to be a fair amount of overlap in the Venn diagram. There are
>>lower-class versions or subsets of soccer moms -- but I'd suspect that
>>their kids would be less likely to play soccer. The reason why the
>>stereotype focuses on soccer is that soccer traditionally isn't something
>>that regular American kids would play (unlike baseball, etc.) -- soccer is
>>a trendy thing that permits prosperous suburban parents to express their
>>social differences from other Americans.
>
> From a Florida perspective, I think you are behind the times.
> "Traditional" only works when you extend the time line. Soccer has
> been as popular as any other field game for a long enough period of
> time here to become "traditional".
When you say "Florida", do you mean your part of Florida? I get the sense
that you live in a reasonably prosperous part of (unincorporated) Greater
Orlando. Is soccer equally popular in the Orlando equivalent of the inner
city?
> The sports alternatives to soccer are youth football and baseball.
> The pre-high school kids are playing soccer just as their older
> brothers and sisters did. Soccer is gaining because both girls and
> boys play soccer. While there are female football and baseball
> programs, the participation is minimal compared to soccer.
Yes, I suppose that is an important point that I had overlooked. I think
there's more emphasis now on extended parental or academic sports
obsessedness to the female gender. When I was a kid, a lot of boys
participated in 'little league', but it wasn't as common for girls to (=
BrE "to do"), although I remember my female cousin, same age as me, doing
so.
I think the suburbs historically had emphasized sports more generally as a
desirable activity for children, I believe because there are, in the
suburbs, no competing activities (of, say, an intellectual or artistic
nature) that are available for children to be engaged in; that is, they
are vast cultural wastelands full of uncreative but athletic people. In
this the suburbs were descendants of their small-town antecedents, which,
as you know as a Midwesterner, structured residents' lives around high
school football games and the like.
When you think about it, the kinds of people who would have migrated to
the suburbs 50 years ago were precisely the sort of people who didn't
appreciate the cultural and intellectual benefits of city life, and who
had, perhaps, a greater appreciation for outdoors activities of a
non-urban sort. It makes sense that their offspring would have inherited
such qualities.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Ray
> On Tue, 02 May 2006 21:49:36 +0200, THE Entity <ggu...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 2 May 2006 20:48:58 +0100, Vinny Burgoo
>><hnN...@yahoo.co.uk> wrought:
>>
>>>I get the impression (perhaps from my own inner recesses) that
>>>Yummy Mummy is restricted to fairly posh, well-dressed and
>>>youngish mummies whose husbands are off in the City. They might
>>>be up for it but even if they're not they are a joy to behold.
>>
>>Are they perhaps the BrE equivalent of "soccer moms"?
>
> Not being a listener to Rush Limbaugh, I'm not really sure what a
> "soccer mom" is. I think he originated, or at least popularized,
> the expression.
>
> Isn't it just a wife with children, and a woman who does not work
> outside of the home? Is being well-to-do essential to being a
> soccer mom? Would the wife of, say, a garage mechanic be a soccer
> mom if she has kids and is a stay-at-home mother?
MWCD-11 has a def:
"a typically suburban mother who accompanies her children to their
soccer games and is considered as part of a significant voting bloc or
demographic group"
--
Ray
(remove the Xs to reply)
the Omrud
Even the MILTs don't do that around here as the primary schools have
uniforms against which no parent rebels.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Tony Cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Isn't it just a wife with children, and a woman who does not work
>> outside of the home? Is being well-to-do essential to being a
>> soccer mom? Would the wife of, say, a garage mechanic be a soccer
>> mom if she has kids and is a stay-at-home mother?
>
> MWCD-11 has a def: "a typically suburban mother who accompanies her
> children to their soccer games and is considered as part of a
> significant voting bloc or demographic group"
Thinking about this, I wonder whether part of it isn't that such women
therefore spend a fair amount of time standing around talking to other
women in the same situation. That is, they are part of a social
network (perhaps only one of several they participate in) comprising
the mothers of their children's teammates.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |When you're ready to break a rule,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |you _know_ that you're ready; you
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |don't need anyone else to tell
|you. (If you're not that certain,
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |then you're _not_ ready.)
(650)857-7572 | Tom Phoenix
Robert Bannister
> Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> On 2 May 2006 21:10:13 GMT, "Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Halcombe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Monk's replacement sidekick - played by Traylor Howard (I assume her
>>>>> parents wanted to make marriage as hard for her as possible: no
>>>>> Messrs Park or Home need apply, for a start!) - is one two.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oy!
>>>> Well, Traylor Howard is from Orlando, Fla., and people down there
>>>> (including those that live in the unincorporated parts) give their
>>>> kids strange names.
>>>
>>>
>>> The IMDB says it is her mother's maiden name.
>>
>>
>>
>> Something we in this family think is a fine thing, indeed. My
>> daughter (although not born in Orlando) has her mother's maiden name
>> as her first name.
>>
>>
>
> If my daughter had her mother's maiden name as her first name, she would
> have been called Frank Spira. I don't think she would have been too
> pleased.
>
One of my first girlfriends was called Frankie. I was never sure whether
that was her actual name or whether she was officially Frances. (Or
should that be Francis? I always get mixed up over Lesley and Leslie too).
--
Rob Bannister
Tony Cooper
<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Wed, 3 May 2006 11:54:06 +0000 (UTC), Salvatore Volatile
>><m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>No. That woman might, however, be the wife of a "Nascar dad", a
>>>constituency that may be more important now. In general, I'd say, Nascar
>>>dads aren't married to soccer moms because of a class difference, but
>>>there's got to be a fair amount of overlap in the Venn diagram. There are
>>>lower-class versions or subsets of soccer moms -- but I'd suspect that
>>>their kids would be less likely to play soccer. The reason why the
>>>stereotype focuses on soccer is that soccer traditionally isn't something
>>>that regular American kids would play (unlike baseball, etc.) -- soccer is
>>>a trendy thing that permits prosperous suburban parents to express their
>>>social differences from other Americans.
>>
>> From a Florida perspective, I think you are behind the times.
>> "Traditional" only works when you extend the time line. Soccer has
>> been as popular as any other field game for a long enough period of
>> time here to become "traditional".
>
>When you say "Florida", do you mean your part of Florida? I get the sense
>that you live in a reasonably prosperous part of (unincorporated) Greater
>Orlando. Is soccer equally popular in the Orlando equivalent of the inner
>city?
I don't think you have a grasp of this area. Yes, the area
immediately surrounding my house is reasonably prosperous. Just on
routine errand-running, though, within a 10 minutes drive from my
house I might pass through a low income blighted area or a very high
income gated community. "My part" of Florida is a cross-section that
includes just about all levels.
By "inner city", I assume you mean the black part of town. Soccer is
not as popular with African Americans, but the "inner city" is not
just African American. You will see soccer practices going on in the
inner city here, but quite a few of the players will be from the
islands, South America, and Mexico. You might also see pick-up
cricket games.
>I think the suburbs historically had emphasized sports more generally as a
>desirable activity for children, I believe because there are, in the
>suburbs, no competing activities (of, say, an intellectual or artistic
>nature) that are available for children to be engaged in; that is, they
>are vast cultural wastelands full of uncreative but athletic people. In
>this the suburbs were descendants of their small-town antecedents, which,
>as you know as a Midwesterner, structured residents' lives around high
>school football games and the like.
The suburban kids in Orlando go into the "city" to see our museums
about as frequently as Brooklyn kids go into Manhattan to visit MOMA.
Having culture nearby, and engaging in it routinely, are two different
things.
>When you think about it, the kinds of people who would have migrated to
>the suburbs 50 years ago were precisely the sort of people who didn't
>appreciate the cultural and intellectual benefits of city life, and who
>had, perhaps, a greater appreciation for outdoors activities of a
>non-urban sort. It makes sense that their offspring would have inherited
>such qualities.
Right. Brooklyn kids appreciate the cultural and intellectual
benefits of stoop-ball, and Orlando kids shoot baskets. Just like
their fathers did.
Matthew Huntbach
> Around here, soccer is quite popular with the kids. But even there,
> it appears to be seen as a largely organized sport. Kids are far more
> likely to play pick-up baseball or basketball, and while footballs and
> basketballs get brought to school, I don't see kids playing soccer
> there while waiting for class to start. But with the heavily Hispanic
> population here, it's certainly not seen as in any way tied to money.
It always struck me as odd when I was at school that we would be made to change
into special clothes to play football (i.e. socer) for an hour a week in PE
lessons, while most boys played football for five hours a week in their school
uniform in their breaks, and quite likely for several hours more at home after
school, still wearing school uniform.
Baseball (i.e. rounders) was something only girlies would consider.
Matthew Huntbach
the Omrud
Surely that was because "school" football was played on a muddy field
whereas "break" football was played on the tarmac playground.
> Baseball (i.e. rounders) was something only girlies would consider.
I don't think any of us (boys or girls) played rounders in games
lessons at high school but it was reasonably popular with both at
dinner time in the summer when we were allowed onto the grass.
Salvatore Volatile
> On Wed, 3 May 2006 18:27:52 +0000 (UTC), Salvatore Volatile
><m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>When you say "Florida", do you mean your part of Florida? I get the sense
>>that you live in a reasonably prosperous part of (unincorporated) Greater
>>Orlando. Is soccer equally popular in the Orlando equivalent of the inner
>>city?
>
Not necessarily. I don't know the social makeup of Orlando, but many
American cities have 'inner city' neighborhoods (and similar communities
not reasonably describable as 'inner city') predominantly inhabited by
other ethnic groups, though nonwhites tend to be overrepresented.
> The suburban kids in Orlando go into the "city" to see our museums
> about as frequently as Brooklyn kids go into Manhattan to visit MOMA.
> Having culture nearby, and engaging in it routinely, are two different
> things.
In elementary school in Brooklyn (FLCIA) we used to regularly go on trips
to the Museum of Natural History (and the Planetarium). The MoMA, maybe
not so much.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Tony Cooper
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>Ray <vortre...@yaxhoo.com> writes:
>
>> Tony Cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Isn't it just a wife with children, and a woman who does not work
>>> outside of the home? Is being well-to-do essential to being a
>>> soccer mom? Would the wife of, say, a garage mechanic be a soccer
>>> mom if she has kids and is a stay-at-home mother?
>>
>> MWCD-11 has a def: "a typically suburban mother who accompanies her
>> children to their soccer games and is considered as part of a
>> significant voting bloc or demographic group"
>
>Thinking about this, I wonder whether part of it isn't that such women
>therefore spend a fair amount of time standing around talking to other
>women in the same situation. That is, they are part of a social
>network (perhaps only one of several they participate in) comprising
>the mothers of their children's teammates.
An acquaintance of mine insists that soccer cleaned him out
financially. He was separated from his wife, but in a rather amiable
situation with her. She was satisfied with the financial
arrangements.
One day, though, that all changed. She engaged a go-for-the-throat
divorce lawyer, come up with some inflated values on certain
possessions, and had the divorce settlement planned out like Sherman's
plans for Georgia.
She had been gathering tips from the other soccer moms chatting in the
stands. They had convinced her that all divorce battles are
to-the-death cage fights.
Linz
I don't spend much of my day in the LTs, either, especially this time of
year. But I knew I'd got my figure back after having YoungBloke when I could
do them up again. The figure's on the slide, now, but I'm keeping those LTs.