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tum, pronounced tuhm
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Quinn C
Dec 1, 2016, 3:28:46 PM12/1/16
to
A piece we are singing has the words written as "tum* tum tum",
with the asterisk pointing to the explanation "pronounced tuhm".
I was surprised that our conductor instructed us to use (what I
heard as) [tVm] (the STRUT vowel). Wouldn't that be the
pronunciation of "tum" without any explanation, so adding one
would only lead to confusion? But I wasn't sure what "tuhm" is
supposed to mean. Not [tum], (the GOOSE vowel)? No, that would be
"toom". Fair enough. We had to start practicing, so I let it rest,
but later it came to me that "tuhm" might mean [t@m] (SCHWA).
Any experience what "uh" means in singing instructions?
The song in question is Rakút, No 5 in Five Hebrew Love Songs by
Eric Whitacre, an American composer, and published by Walton, a US
company.
--
... man muss oft schon Wissenschaft infrage stellen bei den Wirt-
schaftsmenschen [...] das Denken wird haeufig blockiert von einem
ideologischen Ueberbau [...] Es ist halt in vielen Teilen eher
eine Religion als eine Wissenschaft. -- Heiner Flassbeck
with the asterisk pointing to the explanation "pronounced tuhm".
I was surprised that our conductor instructed us to use (what I
heard as) [tVm] (the STRUT vowel). Wouldn't that be the
pronunciation of "tum" without any explanation, so adding one
would only lead to confusion? But I wasn't sure what "tuhm" is
supposed to mean. Not [tum], (the GOOSE vowel)? No, that would be
"toom". Fair enough. We had to start practicing, so I let it rest,
but later it came to me that "tuhm" might mean [t@m] (SCHWA).
Any experience what "uh" means in singing instructions?
The song in question is Rakút, No 5 in Five Hebrew Love Songs by
Eric Whitacre, an American composer, and published by Walton, a US
company.
--
... man muss oft schon Wissenschaft infrage stellen bei den Wirt-
schaftsmenschen [...] das Denken wird haeufig blockiert von einem
ideologischen Ueberbau [...] Es ist halt in vielen Teilen eher
eine Religion als eine Wissenschaft. -- Heiner Flassbeck
Quinn C
Dec 1, 2016, 3:39:07 PM12/1/16
to
* Quinn C:
> A piece we are singing has the words written as "tum* tum tum",
> with the asterisk pointing to the explanation "pronounced tuhm".
>
> I was surprised that our conductor instructed us to use (what I
> heard as) [tVm] (the STRUT vowel). Wouldn't that be the
> pronunciation of "tum" without any explanation, so adding one
> would only lead to confusion? But I wasn't sure what "tuhm" is
> supposed to mean. Not [tum], (the GOOSE vowel)? No, that would be
> "toom". Fair enough. We had to start practicing, so I let it rest,
> but later it came to me that "tuhm" might mean [t@m] (SCHWA).
>
> Any experience what "uh" means in singing instructions?
>
> The song in question is Rakút, No 5 in Five Hebrew Love Songs by
> Eric Whitacre, an American composer, and published by Walton, a US
> company.
The performance by the Eric Whitacre singers can be assumed to be
authentic. What are you hearing?
<https://youtu.be/BKEnaURxbjg?t=8m10s>
--
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach him to use
the 'Net and he won't bother you for weeks.
> A piece we are singing has the words written as "tum* tum tum",
> with the asterisk pointing to the explanation "pronounced tuhm".
>
> I was surprised that our conductor instructed us to use (what I
> heard as) [tVm] (the STRUT vowel). Wouldn't that be the
> pronunciation of "tum" without any explanation, so adding one
> would only lead to confusion? But I wasn't sure what "tuhm" is
> supposed to mean. Not [tum], (the GOOSE vowel)? No, that would be
> "toom". Fair enough. We had to start practicing, so I let it rest,
> but later it came to me that "tuhm" might mean [t@m] (SCHWA).
>
> Any experience what "uh" means in singing instructions?
>
> The song in question is Rakút, No 5 in Five Hebrew Love Songs by
> Eric Whitacre, an American composer, and published by Walton, a US
> company.
authentic. What are you hearing?
<https://youtu.be/BKEnaURxbjg?t=8m10s>
--
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach him to use
the 'Net and he won't bother you for weeks.
Ross
Dec 1, 2016, 4:04:31 PM12/1/16
to
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 9:39:07 AM UTC+13, Quinn C wrote:
> * Quinn C:
>
> > A piece we are singing has the words written as "tum* tum tum",
> > with the asterisk pointing to the explanation "pronounced tuhm".
> >
> > I was surprised that our conductor instructed us to use (what I
> > heard as) [tVm] (the STRUT vowel). Wouldn't that be the
> > pronunciation of "tum" without any explanation, so adding one
> > would only lead to confusion? But I wasn't sure what "tuhm" is
> > supposed to mean. Not [tum], (the GOOSE vowel)? No, that would be
> > "toom". Fair enough. We had to start practicing, so I let it rest,
> > but later it came to me that "tuhm" might mean [t@m] (SCHWA).
> >
> > Any experience what "uh" means in singing instructions?
> >
> > The song in question is Rakút, No 5 in Five Hebrew Love Songs by
> > Eric Whitacre, an American composer, and published by Walton, a US
> > company.
>
> The performance by the Eric Whitacre singers can be assumed to be
> authentic. What are you hearing?
>
> <https://youtu.be/BKEnaURxbjg?t=8m10s>
>
I'm hearing [tVm] from the men and [tum] or [tUm] from the women.
> * Quinn C:
>
> > A piece we are singing has the words written as "tum* tum tum",
> > with the asterisk pointing to the explanation "pronounced tuhm".
> >
> > I was surprised that our conductor instructed us to use (what I
> > heard as) [tVm] (the STRUT vowel). Wouldn't that be the
> > pronunciation of "tum" without any explanation, so adding one
> > would only lead to confusion? But I wasn't sure what "tuhm" is
> > supposed to mean. Not [tum], (the GOOSE vowel)? No, that would be
> > "toom". Fair enough. We had to start practicing, so I let it rest,
> > but later it came to me that "tuhm" might mean [t@m] (SCHWA).
> >
> > Any experience what "uh" means in singing instructions?
> >
> > The song in question is Rakút, No 5 in Five Hebrew Love Songs by
> > Eric Whitacre, an American composer, and published by Walton, a US
> > company.
>
> The performance by the Eric Whitacre singers can be assumed to be
> authentic. What are you hearing?
>
> <https://youtu.be/BKEnaURxbjg?t=8m10s>
>
Jerry Friedman
Dec 1, 2016, 5:29:18 PM12/1/16
to
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 1:28:46 PM UTC-7, Quinn C wrote:
> A piece we are singing has the words written as "tum* tum tum",
> with the asterisk pointing to the explanation "pronounced tuhm".
>
> I was surprised that our conductor instructed us to use (what I
> heard as) [tVm] (the STRUT vowel). Wouldn't that be the
> pronunciation of "tum" without any explanation,
Not necessarily in Foreign.
> A piece we are singing has the words written as "tum* tum tum",
> with the asterisk pointing to the explanation "pronounced tuhm".
>
> I was surprised that our conductor instructed us to use (what I
> heard as) [tVm] (the STRUT vowel). Wouldn't that be the
> pronunciation of "tum" without any explanation,
> so adding one
> would only lead to confusion? But I wasn't sure what "tuhm" is
> supposed to mean. Not [tum], (the GOOSE vowel)? No, that would be
> "toom". Fair enough. We had to start practicing, so I let it rest,
> but later it came to me that "tuhm" might mean [t@m] (SCHWA).
though it has the prototypical schwa, that can't be the only
vowel in a monosyllable. The only possibility in Hebrew (Modern
Israeli Hebrew the way I learned it) is the GOOSE vowel, but as
you say, representing it as "uh" would be very unlikely.
I wouldn't expect someone who distinguishes between the schwa and
the STRUT vowel to use "uh" for the former.
> Any experience what "uh" means in singing instructions?
and "um".
Sorry. I said that because I have no experience with such things.
I recommend trying to blend in with everybody else. Oh, you thought
of that already?
> The song in question is Rakút, No 5 in Five Hebrew Love Songs by
> Eric Whitacre, an American composer,
these days, I gather.
(The spellchecker thinks there's no word "pronouned". Nouns can be
verbed, and I suppose determiners can be pronouned.)
> and published by Walton, a US company.
--
Mark Brader
Dec 1, 2016, 5:35:07 PM12/1/16
to
Oliver Cromm:
> explanation,...?
I say yes it would, *if* you took the syllable as English. If you
took it as foreign, you might use the rules of some other language:
in classical Latin as I was taught it, it'd use the vowel of "book".
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "I seem to have become a signature quote."
m...@vex.net -- David Keldsen
> A piece we are singing has the words written as "tum* tum tum",
> with the asterisk pointing to the explanation "pronounced tuhm".
> ... Wouldn't that be the pronunciation of "tum" without any
> with the asterisk pointing to the explanation "pronounced tuhm".
> explanation,...?
I say yes it would, *if* you took the syllable as English. If you
took it as foreign, you might use the rules of some other language:
in classical Latin as I was taught it, it'd use the vowel of "book".
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "I seem to have become a signature quote."
m...@vex.net -- David Keldsen
Quinn C
Dec 1, 2016, 9:37:13 PM12/1/16
to
* Mark Brader:
> Oliver Cromm:
>> A piece we are singing has the words written as "tum* tum tum",
>> with the asterisk pointing to the explanation "pronounced tuhm".
>> ... Wouldn't that be the pronunciation of "tum" without any
>> explanation,...?
>
> I say yes it would, *if* you took the syllable as English. If you
> took it as foreign, you might use the rules of some other language:
> in classical Latin as I was taught it, it'd use the vowel of "book".
Tricky. I'd say "tum tum tum" isn't words, so a priori it isn't in
any specific language. It should thus be written phonetically, but
then, unless you use IPA, you have to choose the writing
principles of some language, and I assumed this to be English. If
the whole thing was in Hebrew characters, I would have assumed
Hebrew.
--
Who would know aught of art must learn and then take his ease.
> Oliver Cromm:
>> A piece we are singing has the words written as "tum* tum tum",
>> with the asterisk pointing to the explanation "pronounced tuhm".
>> ... Wouldn't that be the pronunciation of "tum" without any
>> explanation,...?
>
> I say yes it would, *if* you took the syllable as English. If you
> took it as foreign, you might use the rules of some other language:
> in classical Latin as I was taught it, it'd use the vowel of "book".
any specific language. It should thus be written phonetically, but
then, unless you use IPA, you have to choose the writing
principles of some language, and I assumed this to be English. If
the whole thing was in Hebrew characters, I would have assumed
Hebrew.
--
Who would know aught of art must learn and then take his ease.
Peter T. Daniels
Dec 1, 2016, 11:42:02 PM12/1/16
to
Peter Moylan
Dec 2, 2016, 1:54:30 AM12/2/16
to
On 2016-Dec-02 09:29, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> I wouldn't expect someone who distinguishes between the schwa and
> the STRUT vowel to use "uh" for the former.
You surprise me. In the past we've had pronunciation discussions that
> I wouldn't expect someone who distinguishes between the schwa and
> the STRUT vowel to use "uh" for the former.
have ended up concluding that BrE "er" and AmE "uh" are the same sound,
namely a schwa.
If a BrE speaker wrote "tuhm" then it would definitely mean the STRUT
vowel. If an AmE speaker wrote it, it would mean a schwa.
If the original is a Hebrew song, there's no guessing what "uh" would mean.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
CDB
Dec 2, 2016, 8:27:32 AM12/2/16
to
On 12/1/2016 9:38 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> * Mark Brader:
>> Oliver Cromm:
>>> A piece we are singing has the words written as "tum* tum tum",
>>> with the asterisk pointing to the explanation "pronounced tuhm".
>>> ... Wouldn't that be the pronunciation of "tum" without any
>>> explanation,...?
>> I say yes it would, *if* you took the syllable as English. If you
>> took it as foreign, you might use the rules of some other
>> language: in classical Latin as I was taught it, it'd use the vowel
>> of "book".
And mean "then".
> * Mark Brader:
>> Oliver Cromm:
>>> A piece we are singing has the words written as "tum* tum tum",
>>> with the asterisk pointing to the explanation "pronounced tuhm".
>>> ... Wouldn't that be the pronunciation of "tum" without any
>>> explanation,...?
>> I say yes it would, *if* you took the syllable as English. If you
>> took it as foreign, you might use the rules of some other
>> language: in classical Latin as I was taught it, it'd use the vowel
>> of "book".
> Tricky. I'd say "tum tum tum" isn't words, so a priori it isn't in
> any specific language. It should thus be written phonetically, but
> then, unless you use IPA, you have to choose the writing principles
> of some language, and I assumed this to be English. If the whole
> thing was in Hebrew characters, I would have assumed Hebrew.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NghNUQ3V7Zs
Quinn C
Dec 2, 2016, 10:31:07 AM12/2/16
to
* Peter T. Daniels:
I'll get to it, but first, a friend asked me to look up the
Persian spelling of "Bakshish" in my Ketelbey score.
--
Humans write software and while a piece of software might be
bug free humans are not. - Robert Klemme
Persian spelling of "Bakshish" in my Ketelbey score.
--
Humans write software and while a piece of software might be
bug free humans are not. - Robert Klemme
Peter T. Daniels
Dec 2, 2016, 10:49:56 AM12/2/16
to
Jerry Friedman
Dec 2, 2016, 11:17:15 AM12/2/16
to
On 12/1/16 11:54 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 2016-Dec-02 09:29, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> I wouldn't expect someone who distinguishes between the schwa and
>> the STRUT vowel to use "uh" for the former.
>
> You surprise me. In the past we've had pronunciation discussions that
> have ended up concluding that BrE "er" and AmE "uh" are the same sound,
> namely a schwa.
>
> If a BrE speaker wrote "tuhm" then it would definitely mean the STRUT
> vowel. If an AmE speaker wrote it, it would mean a schwa.
Hm. I know the subject has come up, but I don't remember the conclusions.
> On 2016-Dec-02 09:29, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> I wouldn't expect someone who distinguishes between the schwa and
>> the STRUT vowel to use "uh" for the former.
>
> You surprise me. In the past we've had pronunciation discussions that
> have ended up concluding that BrE "er" and AmE "uh" are the same sound,
> namely a schwa.
>
> If a BrE speaker wrote "tuhm" then it would definitely mean the STRUT
> vowel. If an AmE speaker wrote it, it would mean a schwa.
A lot of linguists say that in all (or just typical?) AmE, the STRUT
vowel is the schwa. Many Americans, I think, don't believe that,
because it disagrees with what we were taught in elementary school.
I'd expect Americans who believe they're different to use "uh" only for
the STRUT vowel, but I could be wrong.
> If the original is a Hebrew song, there's no guessing what "uh" would mean.
vocabulary doesn't contain any words with uh[consonant].
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
Dec 2, 2016, 11:49:15 AM12/2/16
to
* Jerry Friedman:
> On 12/1/16 11:54 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 2016-Dec-02 09:29, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>
>>> I wouldn't expect someone who distinguishes between the schwa and
>>> the STRUT vowel to use "uh" for the former.
>>
>> You surprise me. In the past we've had pronunciation discussions that
>> have ended up concluding that BrE "er" and AmE "uh" are the same sound,
>> namely a schwa.
>>
>> If a BrE speaker wrote "tuhm" then it would definitely mean the STRUT
>> vowel. If an AmE speaker wrote it, it would mean a schwa.
>
> Hm. I know the subject has come up, but I don't remember the conclusions.
>
> A lot of linguists say that in all (or just typical?) AmE, the STRUT
> vowel is the schwa. Many Americans, I think, don't believe that,
> because it disagrees with what we were taught in elementary school.
Still, that theory says that they are phonemically the same, not
necessarily phonetically, isn't it? Then, this is not fully
applicable to onomatopoeia.
> I'd expect Americans who believe they're different to use "uh" only for
> the STRUT vowel, but I could be wrong.
That conclusion is strange to me for the same reason I gave
originally: the h should mean something. For example, <ah> usually
indicates that it's PALM and not TRAP. That example fits well to
my intuition, which is based in the role of h as a vowel
lengthener in German, but that notion might not make much sense in
AmE or for some other vowels.
I intend to write something on the subject anyway.
>> If the original is a Hebrew song, there's no guessing what "uh" would mean.
>
> If the word were Hebrew, it would have to be the GOOSE vowel. My tiny
> vocabulary doesn't contain any words with uh[consonant].
The <uh> spelling clearly has no relation to Hebrew, as it's part
of an explanation directed at Englsh-reading performers. There
seem to be varying opinions on whether the spelling <tum> has a
relation to Hebrew, I don't think so.
--
"Bother", said the Borg, as they assimilated Pooh.
> On 12/1/16 11:54 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 2016-Dec-02 09:29, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>
>>> I wouldn't expect someone who distinguishes between the schwa and
>>> the STRUT vowel to use "uh" for the former.
>>
>> You surprise me. In the past we've had pronunciation discussions that
>> have ended up concluding that BrE "er" and AmE "uh" are the same sound,
>> namely a schwa.
>>
>> If a BrE speaker wrote "tuhm" then it would definitely mean the STRUT
>> vowel. If an AmE speaker wrote it, it would mean a schwa.
>
> Hm. I know the subject has come up, but I don't remember the conclusions.
>
> A lot of linguists say that in all (or just typical?) AmE, the STRUT
> vowel is the schwa. Many Americans, I think, don't believe that,
> because it disagrees with what we were taught in elementary school.
necessarily phonetically, isn't it? Then, this is not fully
applicable to onomatopoeia.
> I'd expect Americans who believe they're different to use "uh" only for
> the STRUT vowel, but I could be wrong.
originally: the h should mean something. For example, <ah> usually
indicates that it's PALM and not TRAP. That example fits well to
my intuition, which is based in the role of h as a vowel
lengthener in German, but that notion might not make much sense in
AmE or for some other vowels.
I intend to write something on the subject anyway.
>> If the original is a Hebrew song, there's no guessing what "uh" would mean.
>
> If the word were Hebrew, it would have to be the GOOSE vowel. My tiny
> vocabulary doesn't contain any words with uh[consonant].
of an explanation directed at Englsh-reading performers. There
seem to be varying opinions on whether the spelling <tum> has a
relation to Hebrew, I don't think so.
--
"Bother", said the Borg, as they assimilated Pooh.
Quinn C
Dec 2, 2016, 11:57:34 AM12/2/16
to
Besides, the Web tells me it's بخشش
<http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.0:1:158.steingass>
--
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.
CDB
Dec 2, 2016, 2:18:16 PM12/2/16
to
Just saw the sad news. Si monumentum requiris, telespice.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/andrew-sachs-fawlty-towers-obit-1.3877962
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcdJevgQOmQ
Peter T. Daniels
Dec 2, 2016, 5:07:52 PM12/2/16
to
but even if it doesn't, it can easily be looked up. The only Whitacre
I've heard makes me wonder why he's so popular (but then, so does all
the Rutter), but if he doesn't give in the score the text or a way to
locate it, that's another strike against him.
> Besides, the Web tells me it's بخشش
> <http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.0:1:158.steingass>
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
Dec 2, 2016, 6:06:30 PM12/2/16
to
--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
Charles Bishop
Dec 2, 2016, 6:07:48 PM12/2/16
to
In article <o1shdk$1cj5$2...@gioia.aioe.org>, CDB <belle...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Just saw the sad news. Si monumentum requiris, telespice.
>
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/andrew-sachs-fawlty-towers-obit-1.3877962
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcdJevgQOmQ
Wouldn't play for me - because I'm in the US?
--
charles
wrote:
> Just saw the sad news. Si monumentum requiris, telespice.
>
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/andrew-sachs-fawlty-towers-obit-1.3877962
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcdJevgQOmQ
--
charles
Quinn C
Dec 2, 2016, 6:24:11 PM12/2/16
to
modern" not too conservative or stereotyped, thus a good
middle-ground for amateur singers.
> but if he doesn't give in the score the text or a way to
> locate it, that's another strike against him.
by Whitacre's Israeli wife, Hila Plitmann, the source and
inspiration of these songs. E.g.:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjX7gmBys-E>
The original text I located it easily on Whitacre's blog. In
handwriting by the author:
<http://ericwhitacre.com/wp-content/uploads/hebrew-love-songs-hebrew.pdf>
But in my understanding, the "tum, tum" is not part of the poems
or the solo voice, it's just choir accompaniment, i.e. the choir
as an instrument, really.
Reading up on Ms. Plitmann, I started wondering whether she's
partly responsible for the recent Nobel Prize, by winning a
classical Grammy for her part in "Mr. Tambourine Man". This could
have drawn the attention of some strictly classical listeners to
Dylan ...
>> Besides, the Web tells me it's بخشش
>
> Then it's not baksheesh, but bakhsheesh.
>
>> <http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.0:1:158.steingass>
words?
--
XML combines all the inefficiency of text-based formats with most
of the unreadability of binary formats.
Oren Tirosh, comp.lang.python
Tony Cooper
Dec 2, 2016, 6:43:18 PM12/2/16
to
union.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
David Kleinecke
Dec 2, 2016, 6:47:20 PM12/2/16
to
Horace LaBadie
Dec 2, 2016, 7:04:27 PM12/2/16
to
In article <dabc1980-e63e-480a...@googlegroups.com>,
Whatever happened to the six Californias proposal?
David Kleinecke
Dec 2, 2016, 9:32:36 PM12/2/16
to
just one man's scheme. In spite of the love-hate relationship
northern California and southern California really do belong
together - like a family. Likewise desert, mountains (both sets),
valley and coast. Even the channel islands.
Peter T. Daniels
Dec 2, 2016, 11:22:59 PM12/2/16
to
> The original text I located it easily on Whitacre's blog. In
> handwriting by the author:
>
> <http://ericwhitacre.com/wp-content/uploads/hebrew-love-songs-hebrew.pdf>
>
> But in my understanding, the "tum, tum" is not part of the poems
> or the solo voice, it's just choir accompaniment, i.e. the choir
> as an instrument, really.
>
> Reading up on Ms. Plitmann, I started wondering whether she's
> partly responsible for the recent Nobel Prize, by winning a
> classical Grammy for her part in "Mr. Tambourine Man". This could
> have drawn the attention of some strictly classical listeners to
> Dylan ...
Maybe appealing to those who think Josh Groban is an opera-singer.
> >> Besides, the Web tells me it's بخشش
> >
> > Then it's not baksheesh, but bakhsheesh.
> >
> >> <http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.0:1:158.steingass>
>
> And those (plus "Bakshish", as I wrote it) are different English
> words?
Peter T. Daniels
Dec 2, 2016, 11:25:04 PM12/2/16
to
he'd done in his 86 years besides "Manuel."
Quinn C
Dec 2, 2016, 11:45:38 PM12/2/16
to
>> The original text I located it easily on Whitacre's blog. In
>> handwriting by the author:
>>
>> <http://ericwhitacre.com/wp-content/uploads/hebrew-love-songs-hebrew.pdf>
>>
>> But in my understanding, the "tum, tum" is not part of the poems
>> or the solo voice, it's just choir accompaniment, i.e. the choir
>> as an instrument, really.
>>
>> Reading up on Ms. Plitmann, I started wondering whether she's
>> partly responsible for the recent Nobel Prize, by winning a
>> classical Grammy for her part in "Mr. Tambourine Man". This could
>> have drawn the attention of some strictly classical listeners to
>> Dylan ...
>
> "Crossover"????????????
>
> Maybe appealing to those who think Josh Groban is an opera-singer.
>
>>>> Besides, the Web tells me it's بخشش
>>>
>>> Then it's not baksheesh, but bakhsheesh.
>>>
>>>> <http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.0:1:158.steingass>
>>
>> And those (plus "Bakshish", as I wrote it) are different English
>> words?
>
> In the sense that Pesak and Pesach are different English words.
--
It gets hot in Raleigh, but Texas! I don't know why anybody
lives here, honestly.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.220
Quinn C
Dec 2, 2016, 11:48:40 PM12/2/16
to
* Quinn C:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
>
>> On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 6:24:11 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
>>> For an authentic pronunciation of the Hebrew, there's performances
>>> by Whitacre's Israeli wife, Hila Plitmann, the source and
>>> inspiration of these songs. E.g.:
>>>
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjX7gmBys-E>
>>
>> Nu, how does she pronounce it?
>
> If you're not paying attention, I' m not going to repeat it again.
For those who are paying attention: the "tum"s are played on the
piano in that recording.
--
Software is getting slower
more rapidly than hardware becomes faster
--Wirth's law
> * Peter T. Daniels:
>
>> On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 6:24:11 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
>>> For an authentic pronunciation of the Hebrew, there's performances
>>> by Whitacre's Israeli wife, Hila Plitmann, the source and
>>> inspiration of these songs. E.g.:
>>>
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjX7gmBys-E>
>>
>> Nu, how does she pronounce it?
>
> If you're not paying attention, I' m not going to repeat it again.
piano in that recording.
--
Software is getting slower
more rapidly than hardware becomes faster
--Wirth's law
Jerry Friedman
Dec 3, 2016, 12:18:38 AM12/3/16
to
On 12/2/16 9:50 AM, Quinn C wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman:
>
>> On 12/1/16 11:54 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 2016-Dec-02 09:29, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wouldn't expect someone who distinguishes between the schwa and
>>>> the STRUT vowel to use "uh" for the former.
>>>
>>> You surprise me. In the past we've had pronunciation discussions that
>>> have ended up concluding that BrE "er" and AmE "uh" are the same sound,
>>> namely a schwa.
>>>
>>> If a BrE speaker wrote "tuhm" then it would definitely mean the STRUT
>>> vowel. If an AmE speaker wrote it, it would mean a schwa.
>>
>> Hm. I know the subject has come up, but I don't remember the conclusions.
>>
>> A lot of linguists say that in all (or just typical?) AmE, the STRUT
>> vowel is the schwa. Many Americans, I think, don't believe that,
>> because it disagrees with what we were taught in elementary school.
>
> Still, that theory says that they are phonemically the same, not
> necessarily phonetically, isn't it? Then, this is not fully
> applicable to onomatopoeia.
>
>> I'd expect Americans who believe they're different to use "uh" only for
>> the STRUT vowel, but I could be wrong.
>
> That conclusion is strange to me for the same reason I gave
> originally: the h should mean something.
...
> * Jerry Friedman:
>
>> On 12/1/16 11:54 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 2016-Dec-02 09:29, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wouldn't expect someone who distinguishes between the schwa and
>>>> the STRUT vowel to use "uh" for the former.
>>>
>>> You surprise me. In the past we've had pronunciation discussions that
>>> have ended up concluding that BrE "er" and AmE "uh" are the same sound,
>>> namely a schwa.
>>>
>>> If a BrE speaker wrote "tuhm" then it would definitely mean the STRUT
>>> vowel. If an AmE speaker wrote it, it would mean a schwa.
>>
>> Hm. I know the subject has come up, but I don't remember the conclusions.
>>
>> A lot of linguists say that in all (or just typical?) AmE, the STRUT
>> vowel is the schwa. Many Americans, I think, don't believe that,
>> because it disagrees with what we were taught in elementary school.
>
> Still, that theory says that they are phonemically the same, not
> necessarily phonetically, isn't it? Then, this is not fully
> applicable to onomatopoeia.
>
>> I'd expect Americans who believe they're different to use "uh" only for
>> the STRUT vowel, but I could be wrong.
>
> That conclusion is strange to me for the same reason I gave
> originally: the h should mean something.
Yes, it should, but there's "The n is silent in the noun /autumn/ but
pronounced in the adjective: /AW-tuhm/ and /aw-TUHM-nuhl/."
/The Columbia Guide to Standard English/ (2013)
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Aw-tuhm%22
(But you can't preview that page.)
Maybe there's something in the book explaining their reason for that
transcription.
--
Jerry Friedman
David Kleinecke
Dec 3, 2016, 12:48:35 AM12/3/16
to
Arabic.
Peter T. Daniels
Dec 3, 2016, 8:35:16 AM12/3/16
to
Someone -- was it you? -- gave an ambiguously uninterpretable respelling.
> >> The original text I located it easily on Whitacre's blog. In
> >> handwriting by the author:
> >> <http://ericwhitacre.com/wp-content/uploads/hebrew-love-songs-hebrew.pdf>
> >> But in my understanding, the "tum, tum" is not part of the poems
> >> or the solo voice, it's just choir accompaniment, i.e. the choir
> >> as an instrument, really.
> >> Reading up on Ms. Plitmann, I started wondering whether she's
> >> partly responsible for the recent Nobel Prize, by winning a
> >> classical Grammy for her part in "Mr. Tambourine Man". This could
> >> have drawn the attention of some strictly classical listeners to
> >> Dylan ...
> > "Crossover"????????????
> > Maybe appealing to those who think Josh Groban is an opera-singer.
> >>>> Besides, the Web tells me it's بخشش
> >>> Then it's not baksheesh, but bakhsheesh.
> >>>> <http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.0:1:158.steingass>
> >> And those (plus "Bakshish", as I wrote it) are different English
> >> words?
> > In the sense that Pesak and Pesach are different English words.
>
> Or "color" and "colour"? Well, honestly: whatever.
Peter T. Daniels
Dec 3, 2016, 8:36:20 AM12/3/16
to
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 11:48:40 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
> * Quinn C:
> > * Peter T. Daniels:
> >> On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 6:24:11 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
> >>> For an authentic pronunciation of the Hebrew, there's performances
> >>> by Whitacre's Israeli wife, Hila Plitmann, the source and
> >>> inspiration of these songs. E.g.:
> >>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjX7gmBys-E>
> >> Nu, how does she pronounce it?
> > If you're not paying attention, I' m not going to repeat it again.
>
> For those who are paying attention: the "tum"s are played on the
> piano in that recording.
Then they do not have any pronunciation at all, so what is the question?
> * Quinn C:
> > * Peter T. Daniels:
> >> On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 6:24:11 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
> >>> For an authentic pronunciation of the Hebrew, there's performances
> >>> by Whitacre's Israeli wife, Hila Plitmann, the source and
> >>> inspiration of these songs. E.g.:
> >>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjX7gmBys-E>
> >> Nu, how does she pronounce it?
> > If you're not paying attention, I' m not going to repeat it again.
>
> For those who are paying attention: the "tum"s are played on the
> piano in that recording.
Peter T. Daniels
Dec 3, 2016, 8:42:37 AM12/3/16
to
of African languages, but among Iranian languages, only Kurdish has
developed obligatory vowel notation, which is accomplished with
a combination of linear consonant-letters and extra-lineear vowel marks.
Uyghur has developed a different system for the same purpose.
> As shown it looks
> Arabic.
CDB
Dec 3, 2016, 9:10:12 AM12/3/16
to
On 12/2/2016 11:25 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> CDB wrote:
>> Just saw the sad news. Si monumentum requiris, telespice.
>> http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/andrew-sachs-fawlty-towers-obit-1.3877962
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcdJevgQOmQ
> NPR had two different reminiscences today but didn't mention anything
> he'd done in his 86 years besides "Manuel."
And the CBC only mentioned television work, but I imagine that's because
> CDB wrote:
>> Just saw the sad news. Si monumentum requiris, telespice.
>> http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/andrew-sachs-fawlty-towers-obit-1.3877962
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcdJevgQOmQ
> NPR had two different reminiscences today but didn't mention anything
> he'd done in his 86 years besides "Manuel."
most of us don't get to London very often. I saw some mention of stage
performances in other articles about him.
CDB
Dec 3, 2016, 9:10:23 AM12/3/16
to
On 12/2/2016 9:32 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:
> Horace LaBadie wrote:
>> David Kleinecke <dklei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tony Cooper wrote:
they're all worth watching, but I would have linked to "Basil the Rat"
if I had been able to find a working single-episode clip.
Searching on "Fawlty" will get them.
>>>> Plays for me, and in the US. Perhaps your state has pulled out
>>>> of the union.
>>> Already?
>> Whatever happened to the six Californias proposal?
> Withered up and blew away. It wasn't really what people wanted - just
> one man's scheme. In spite of the love-hate relationship northern
> California and southern California really do belong together - like a
> family. Likewise desert, mountains (both sets), valley and coast.
> Even the channel islands.
Of course. They're all full of Californians.
> Horace LaBadie wrote:
>> David Kleinecke <dklei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>> Charles Bishop <ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Just saw the sad news. Si monumentum requiris, telespice.
>>>>>> http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/andrew-sachs-fawlty-towers-obit-1.38
77962
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcdJevgQOmQ
>>>>> Wouldn't play for me - because I'm in the US?
In the unlikely case that you haven't seen all the episodes many times:
>>>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Just saw the sad news. Si monumentum requiris, telespice.
>>>>>> http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/andrew-sachs-fawlty-towers-obit-1.38
77962
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcdJevgQOmQ
>>>>> Wouldn't play for me - because I'm in the US?
they're all worth watching, but I would have linked to "Basil the Rat"
if I had been able to find a working single-episode clip.
Searching on "Fawlty" will get them.
>>>> Plays for me, and in the US. Perhaps your state has pulled out
>>>> of the union.
>>> Already?
>> Whatever happened to the six Californias proposal?
> Withered up and blew away. It wasn't really what people wanted - just
> one man's scheme. In spite of the love-hate relationship northern
> California and southern California really do belong together - like a
> family. Likewise desert, mountains (both sets), valley and coast.
> Even the channel islands.
![Peter Duncanson [BrE]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjU1GGYFBCZgBCNB-pRgkosMu-ej0qpnECw3jc8uGYOTiF8a=s40-c)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Dec 3, 2016, 1:05:32 PM12/3/16
to
including:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Sachs
In 1996, Sachs portrayed Albert Einstein in an episode of the
American PBS series NOVA entitled "Einstein Revealed",
I may have seen him in some of his TV work without recognising him. His
appearance was not particularly distinctive (useful for an actor).
Andrew Sachs (2014):
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/12/21/0443A5FE000005DC-0-image-m-17_1419120062208.jpg
and soon after Fawlty Towers (1980):
http://www.bigredbook.info/images/andrew_sachs.jpg
As "Manuel":
http://waytofamous.com/10519-and...@imageandrew-sachs-02.jpg.html
and
https://thiswastv.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/manuel_fawlty_towers.png?w=492&h=377
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Charles Bishop
Dec 3, 2016, 3:21:35 PM12/3/16
to
Janet
Dec 3, 2016, 5:12:31 PM12/3/16
to
In article <60ddbf09-050e-446d...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...
He's done a great deal of voice work for TV and radio ( BBC plays,
documentaries, dramas, narrator); and audio books.
Janet.
gram...@verizon.net says...
documentaries, dramas, narrator); and audio books.
Janet.
Yusuf B Gursey
Dec 4, 2016, 7:23:32 AM12/4/16
to
not distinguished between /u/ and /i:/ (/i/ corresponds to a schwa)
repectively. The long vowel /u:/ is written as <ww>. Diacritic <v>
is put above <w> and <y> to obtain /o:/ an /e:/. <h> not joining
to the left represents /a/ i.e. [ä]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_alphabets#Sorani_alphabet
Yusuf B Gursey
Dec 4, 2016, 7:35:01 AM12/4/16
to
roughly between 1922-1927
They can be still also be found for Kazakh and Kirghiz (and Tajik?)
written in China, and sometimes for Azeri Turkish in Iran (less
consistently)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Dec 4, 2016, 7:46:29 AM12/4/16
to
leading a celebrity lifestyle and/or appearing on TV talk shows.
Janet
Dec 4, 2016, 11:22:48 AM12/4/16
to
In article <0t384cdejjfu2uarp...@4ax.com>,
ma...@peterduncanson.net says...
I saw a TV interview with John Cleese, who fondly described Sachs
in real life as a lovely man who looked "incredibly nondescript, like a
civil servant or a provincial academic". I imagine many celebrities
might envy the freedom that gave him.
The last thing I watched him in was the film Quartet, but I didn't
recognise him and had no idea till his name appeared in the credits.
Janet
ma...@peterduncanson.net says...
in real life as a lovely man who looked "incredibly nondescript, like a
civil servant or a provincial academic". I imagine many celebrities
might envy the freedom that gave him.
The last thing I watched him in was the film Quartet, but I didn't
recognise him and had no idea till his name appeared in the credits.
Janet
Quinn C
Dec 5, 2016, 1:57:51 PM12/5/16
to
songs, and that in my opinion, it may be in no specific language,
that it is onomatopoeia, that it is a quasi-instrumental
accompaniment. That's four version (that I remember) of saying
that the string "tum" does not represent anything Hebrew.
> Someone -- was it you? -- gave an ambiguously uninterpretable respelling.
attention.
--
Ice hockey is a form of disorderly conduct
in which the score is kept.
-- Doug Larson
Yusuf B Gursey
Dec 5, 2016, 2:09:43 PM12/5/16
to
On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 8:57:51 PM UTC+2, Quinn C wrote:
It occured to me in Turkish we use düm tek (and variations) to
represent the beats of music and songs. I don't know the origin
right away (I try to find out) but probably this tum is of the
same origin.
It occured to me in Turkish we use düm tek (and variations) to
represent the beats of music and songs. I don't know the origin
right away (I try to find out) but probably this tum is of the
same origin.
Snidely
Dec 6, 2016, 2:44:10 AM12/6/16
to
Quinn C pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Yes, but does Hila Plitmann pronounce it anywhere? You seem to be
like me, answering the question I [you] think should have been asked.
>> Someone -- was it you? -- gave an ambiguously uninterpretable respelling.
>
> No idea what you mean. More indications you're not paying
> attention.
He means that using alternate orthography rather than IPA or AIPA
doesn't clarify pronunciation.
/dps
--
Trust, but verify.
like me, answering the question I [you] think should have been asked.
>> Someone -- was it you? -- gave an ambiguously uninterpretable respelling.
>
> No idea what you mean. More indications you're not paying
> attention.
doesn't clarify pronunciation.
/dps
--
Trust, but verify.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Dec 6, 2016, 5:01:57 AM12/6/16
to
On 2016-12-04 16:22:45 +0000, Janet said:
> In article <0t384cdejjfu2uarp...@4ax.com>,
> ma...@peterduncanson.net says...
>>
>> On Sat, 3 Dec 2016 22:12:25 -0000, Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <60ddbf09-050e-446d...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> gram...@verizon.net says...
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 2:18:16 PM UTC-5, CDB wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Just saw the sad news. Si monumentum requiris, telespice.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/andrew-sachs-fawlty-towers-obit-1.3877962
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcdJevgQOmQ
>>>>
>>>> NPR had two different reminiscences today but didn't mention anything
>>>> he'd done in his 86 years besides "Manuel."
>>>
>>> He's done a great deal of voice work for TV and radio ( BBC plays,
>>> documentaries, dramas, narrator); and audio books.
>>>
>> He doesn't appear to have been a "celebrity" in the sense of someone
>> leading a celebrity lifestyle and/or appearing on TV talk shows.
>
> I saw a TV interview with John Cleese, who fondly described Sachs
> in real life as a lovely man who looked "incredibly nondescript, like a
> civil servant or a provincial academic"
or the current President of France (though not for much longer).
> In article <0t384cdejjfu2uarp...@4ax.com>,
> ma...@peterduncanson.net says...
>>
>> On Sat, 3 Dec 2016 22:12:25 -0000, Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <60ddbf09-050e-446d...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> gram...@verizon.net says...
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 2:18:16 PM UTC-5, CDB wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Just saw the sad news. Si monumentum requiris, telespice.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/andrew-sachs-fawlty-towers-obit-1.3877962
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcdJevgQOmQ
>>>>
>>>> NPR had two different reminiscences today but didn't mention anything
>>>> he'd done in his 86 years besides "Manuel."
>>>
>>> He's done a great deal of voice work for TV and radio ( BBC plays,
>>> documentaries, dramas, narrator); and audio books.
>>>
>> He doesn't appear to have been a "celebrity" in the sense of someone
>> leading a celebrity lifestyle and/or appearing on TV talk shows.
>
> I saw a TV interview with John Cleese, who fondly described Sachs
> in real life as a lovely man who looked "incredibly nondescript, like a
> civil servant or a provincial academic"
> . I imagine many celebrities
> might envy the freedom that gave him.
>
> The last thing I watched him in was the film Quartet, but I didn't
> recognise him and had no idea till his name appeared in the credits.
>
> Janet
>
>
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Dec 6, 2016, 5:05:56 AM12/6/16
to
On 2016-12-02 16:50:33 +0000, Quinn C said:
> * Jerry Friedman:
>
>> On 12/1/16 11:54 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 2016-Dec-02 09:29, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wouldn't expect someone who distinguishes between the schwa and
>>>> the STRUT vowel to use "uh" for the former.
>>>
>>> You surprise me. In the past we've had pronunciation discussions that
>>> have ended up concluding that BrE "er" and AmE "uh" are the same sound,
>>> namely a schwa.
>>>
>>> If a BrE speaker wrote "tuhm" then it would definitely mean the STRUT
>>> vowel. If an AmE speaker wrote it, it would mean a schwa.
>>
>> Hm. I know the subject has come up, but I don't remember the conclusions.
>>
>> A lot of linguists say that in all (or just typical?) AmE, the STRUT
>> vowel is the schwa. Many Americans, I think, don't believe that,
>> because it disagrees with what we were taught in elementary school.
>
> Still, that theory says that they are phonemically the same, not
> necessarily phonetically, isn't it? Then, this is not fully
> applicable to onomatopoeia.
>
>> I'd expect Americans who believe they're different to use "uh" only for
>> the STRUT vowel, but I could be wrong.
>
> That conclusion is strange to me for the same reason I gave
> originally: the h should mean something. For example, <ah> usually
> * Jerry Friedman:
>
>> On 12/1/16 11:54 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 2016-Dec-02 09:29, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wouldn't expect someone who distinguishes between the schwa and
>>>> the STRUT vowel to use "uh" for the former.
>>>
>>> You surprise me. In the past we've had pronunciation discussions that
>>> have ended up concluding that BrE "er" and AmE "uh" are the same sound,
>>> namely a schwa.
>>>
>>> If a BrE speaker wrote "tuhm" then it would definitely mean the STRUT
>>> vowel. If an AmE speaker wrote it, it would mean a schwa.
>>
>> Hm. I know the subject has come up, but I don't remember the conclusions.
>>
>> A lot of linguists say that in all (or just typical?) AmE, the STRUT
>> vowel is the schwa. Many Americans, I think, don't believe that,
>> because it disagrees with what we were taught in elementary school.
>
> Still, that theory says that they are phonemically the same, not
> necessarily phonetically, isn't it? Then, this is not fully
> applicable to onomatopoeia.
>
>> I'd expect Americans who believe they're different to use "uh" only for
>> the STRUT vowel, but I could be wrong.
>
> That conclusion is strange to me for the same reason I gave
> indicates that it's PALM and not TRAP. That example fits well to
> my intuition, which is based in the role of h as a vowel
> lengthener in German, but that notion might not make much sense in
> AmE or for some other vowels.
>
> I intend to write something on the subject anyway.
>
>>> If the original is a Hebrew song, there's no guessing what "uh" would mean.
>>
>> If the word were Hebrew, it would have to be the GOOSE vowel. My tiny
>> vocabulary doesn't contain any words with uh[consonant].
>
> The <uh> spelling clearly has no relation to Hebrew, as it's part
> of an explanation directed at Englsh-reading performers.
American-English-reading performers. Most other English speakers have
no idea what sound "uh" is supposed to represent.
> There
> seem to be varying opinions on whether the spelling <tum> has a
> relation to Hebrew, I don't think so.
--
athel
Quinn C
Dec 6, 2016, 2:04:58 PM12/6/16
to
* Athel Cornish-Bowden:
The thread has not convinced me that most AmE speakers have an
idea, or all the same idea. The printed instructions only prove
that the writer (probably Whitacre) has one.
--
Pentiums melt in your PC, not in your hand.
idea, or all the same idea. The printed instructions only prove
that the writer (probably Whitacre) has one.
--
Pentiums melt in your PC, not in your hand.
Peter T. Daniels
Dec 6, 2016, 4:25:46 PM12/6/16
to
by <uh> -- which is the same sound that Athel would think would be
spelled <er> -- is completely out of place in a Modern (or Classical)
Hebrew context -- which is why other interpretations are being sought.
Quinn C
Dec 7, 2016, 5:33:32 PM12/7/16
to
* Snidely:
Maybe I am. Not because I assume everyone thinks the same as me,
but in this case, I assumed everyone had read everything I had
written, and either agreed or they would have voiced their
disagreement,
I had repeatedly stated that I don't consider the "tum" to be part
of the Hebrew text, so when I wrote "For an authentic
pronunciation *of the Hebrew*", that meant to me "the text apart
from the 'tum's." And I was making the point that for those parts,
the recording is more useful to me than written Hebrew, which I
don't know how to read or pronounce.
As I wrote in a separate answer, the notes marked "tum" in the
choral score are played on the piano in the Plitmann recording.
Additional support for my "quasi-instrumental accompaniment"
interpretation.
Sorry for too much detail. It's an old habit of mine, analyzing
why communication fails. I remember doing that at least as far
back as 5th grade with conversations between others: "Listen, you
two talk at cross-purposes because *you* use the word X to mean
/this/, but *you* think it means /that/. I'm not convinced that
you're actually disagreeing." I also soon learned that this kind
of interference is not always welcome, but it's playing in my head
all the time.
>>> Someone -- was it you? -- gave an ambiguously uninterpretable respelling.
>>
>> No idea what you mean. More indications you're not paying
>> attention.
>
> He means that using alternate orthography rather than IPA or AIPA
> doesn't clarify pronunciation.
But how would anyone assume that this comes from me? Even if one
wasn't aware that "tuhm" was quoted from the printed music score,
the whole point of the thread is me asking about the meaning of
this respelling.
--
There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is
to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies.
And the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no
obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult.
-- C. A. R. Hoare
but in this case, I assumed everyone had read everything I had
written, and either agreed or they would have voiced their
disagreement,
I had repeatedly stated that I don't consider the "tum" to be part
of the Hebrew text, so when I wrote "For an authentic
pronunciation *of the Hebrew*", that meant to me "the text apart
from the 'tum's." And I was making the point that for those parts,
the recording is more useful to me than written Hebrew, which I
don't know how to read or pronounce.
As I wrote in a separate answer, the notes marked "tum" in the
choral score are played on the piano in the Plitmann recording.
Additional support for my "quasi-instrumental accompaniment"
interpretation.
Sorry for too much detail. It's an old habit of mine, analyzing
why communication fails. I remember doing that at least as far
back as 5th grade with conversations between others: "Listen, you
two talk at cross-purposes because *you* use the word X to mean
/this/, but *you* think it means /that/. I'm not convinced that
you're actually disagreeing." I also soon learned that this kind
of interference is not always welcome, but it's playing in my head
all the time.
>>> Someone -- was it you? -- gave an ambiguously uninterpretable respelling.
>>
>> No idea what you mean. More indications you're not paying
>> attention.
>
> He means that using alternate orthography rather than IPA or AIPA
> doesn't clarify pronunciation.
wasn't aware that "tuhm" was quoted from the printed music score,
the whole point of the thread is me asking about the meaning of
this respelling.
--
There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is
to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies.
And the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no
obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult.
-- C. A. R. Hoare
Snidely
Dec 8, 2016, 2:49:26 AM12/8/16
to
Quinn C explained :
certain (or maybe uncertain) length.
I don't always go over the antecedents of a post as carefully as I
should.
/dps
--
"I'm glad unicorns don't ever need upgrades."
"We are as up as it is possible to get graded!"
_Phoebe and Her Unicorn_, 2016.05.15
> * Snidely:
>> Quinn C pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>> Quinn C pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>>> Someone -- was it you? -- gave an ambiguously uninterpretable respelling.
>>>
>>> No idea what you mean. More indications you're not paying
>>> attention.
>>
>> He means that using alternate orthography rather than IPA or AIPA
>> doesn't clarify pronunciation.
>
> But how would anyone assume that this comes from me? Even if one
> wasn't aware that "tuhm" was quoted from the printed music score,
> the whole point of the thread is me asking about the meaning of
> this respelling.
No doubt several of us have our heads spinning after a thread reaches a
>>>
>>> No idea what you mean. More indications you're not paying
>>> attention.
>>
>> He means that using alternate orthography rather than IPA or AIPA
>> doesn't clarify pronunciation.
>
> But how would anyone assume that this comes from me? Even if one
> wasn't aware that "tuhm" was quoted from the printed music score,
> the whole point of the thread is me asking about the meaning of
> this respelling.
certain (or maybe uncertain) length.
I don't always go over the antecedents of a post as carefully as I
should.
/dps
--
"I'm glad unicorns don't ever need upgrades."
"We are as up as it is possible to get graded!"
_Phoebe and Her Unicorn_, 2016.05.15
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