runners-up and runner-ups
Melissa
frequently. I’m having trouble with the plural form. Webster’s 11th
has “runners-up” listed first for the plural form but also lists
“runner-ups.” I have a few instances when “runners-up” doesn’t seem to
fit, and I think “runner-ups” (although silly sounding) might be
better. Here are some examples:
Kim and Meg were runners-up in the women’s doubles finals. (“Runners-
up” works fine here.)
Bobby was the most successful, with 11 wins and 7 runner-ups. (To me,
“runners-up” doesn’t seem to work here since it’s 1 person that had 7
second-place finishes.)
Do you think the use of “runner-ups” is OK in the second example, or
am I misusing it?
Changing the term to “second-place finishes” is not an option in this
book.
Thanks!
Melissa
Leslie Danks
> I'm copyediting a book about tennis, and the term "runner-up" appears
> frequently. I’m having trouble with the plural form. Webster’s 11th
> has “runners-up” listed first for the plural form but also lists
> “runner-ups.” I have a few instances when “runners-up” doesn’t seem to
> fit, and I think “runner-ups” (although silly sounding) might be
> better. Here are some examples:
>
> Kim and Meg were runners-up in the women’s doubles finals. (“Runners-
> up” works fine here.)
>
> Bobby was the most successful, with 11 wins and 7 runner-ups. (To me,
> “runners-up” doesn’t seem to work here since it’s 1 person that had 7
> second-place finishes.)
>
> Do you think the use of “runner-ups” is OK in the second example, or
> am I misusing it?
>
A "runner-up" is a person (or team) who came second, so Bobby did not
"achieve" 7 runners-up (as the sentence states), but "was" a runner-up 7
times. In other words, the sentence as it stands is nonsense. I suggest
"Bobby was the most successful, winning 11 times and being runner-up 7
times."
>
> Changing the term to “second-place finishes” is not an option in this
> book.
>
> Thanks!
> Melissa
--
Les
(BrE)
James Hogg
Or "Bobby won 11 times in 18 finals."
--
James
Jared
> Melissa wrote:
> > I'm copyediting a book about tennis, and the term "runner-up" appears
> > frequently. I’m having trouble with the plural form. Webster’s 11th
> > has “runners-up” listed first for the plural form but also lists
> > “runner-ups.” I have a few instances when “runners-up” doesn’t seem to
> > fit, and I think “runner-ups” (although silly sounding) might be
> > better. Here are some examples:
>
> > Kim and Meg were runners-up in the women’s doubles finals. (“Runners-
> > up” works fine here.)
>
> > Bobby was the most successful, with 11 wins and 7 runner-ups. (To me,
> > “runners-up” doesn’t seem to work here since it’s 1 person that had 7
> > second-place finishes.)
>
> > Do you think the use of “runner-ups” is OK in the second example, or
> > am I misusing it?
>
> A "runner-up" is a person (or team) who came second, so Bobby did not
> "achieve" 7 runners-up (as the sentence states)
No it doesn't. It says runner-ups.
Leslie Danks
True -- carelessness on my part. The normal plural of "runner-up" is
"runners-up"; "runner-ups" doesn't mean anything different, IMO, and what I
wrote applies in either case.
--
Les
(BrE)
Jennifer Murphy
<Meliss...@huntel.net> wrote:
>I'm copyediting a book about tennis, and the term "runner-up" appears
>frequently. I’m having trouble with the plural form. Webster’s 11th
>has “runners-up” listed first for the plural form but also lists
>“runner-ups.” I have a few instances when “runners-up” doesn’t seem to
>fit, and I think “runner-ups” (although silly sounding) might be
>better. Here are some examples:
>
>Kim and Meg were runners-up in the women’s doubles finals. (“Runners-
>up” works fine here.)
>
>Bobby was the most successful, with 11 wins and 7 runner-ups. (To me,
>“runners-up” doesn’t seem to work here since it’s 1 person that had 7
>second-place finishes.)
I agree with others that a runner-up is a person, not a position.
Therefore, the sentence is not parallel. Wins are positions.
I also agree that it needs to be reworded. How about, "Bobby was the
most successful with 11 wins and 7 runner-up finishes."?
Stephen
Tough one. I find runner-ups very hard to accept but it seems you have
little choice.
Bobby was the most successful; he won 11 times and was 7 times a runner-up.
--
Stephen
Ballina, NSW
Robert Bannister
For me, "runners-up" and "runner-ups" are both out of place as contrasts
to "wins". If it were about horses, we could use "places", but I don't
think that works well for tennis either. The problem is: I can't think
of a better word, and I suspect a longer paraphrase like "winning 11
times and 7 times achieving a place" might be the only felicitous way out.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
I like this one better than my clumsy suggestion.
--
Rob Bannister
Duggy
Problem is you're trying to match "win" to "runner-up", whereas it's
"winner" and "runner-up".
===
= DUG.
===
semir...@my-deja.com
For tennis why is "finalist" not the obvious solution, or am I missing
something?
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
"runner-ups" is an elided form of "runner-up positions".
How would we feel about this alternative, which also uses elision
"Bobby was the most successful, with 11 wins and 7 seconds"
where "seconds" is "second places" elided?
That seems, to me, more acceptable, perhaps through relative
familiarity.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Marius Hancu
> I'm copyediting a book about tennis, and the term "runner-up" appears
> frequently. I’m having trouble with the plural form. Webster’s 11th
> has “runners-up” listed first for the plural form but also lists
> “runner-ups.”
Things are pretty clear cut in terms of published books listed at
Google Books:
"were runner-ups in"
About 21 results
http://tinyurl.com/3b9k5zw
"were runners-up in"
About 1,170 results
http://tinyurl.com/3frc7ao
The 2nd is the clear winner:-)
Marius Hancu
semir...@my-deja.com
Is there any evidence of tennis players ever running?
I checked the date of the original post and it is
definitely the second of April.
CDB
“runners-up” doesn’t seem to work here since it’s 1 person that had 7
>>
Yes, but this ties in with discussions we have had about the use of
regular inflexions with words that usually take less-usual ones, when
the words are used with altered meanings -- as in "flied out" (from
the noun) instead of "flew out", in baseball.
>>
The phrase "runner-up" is here being used, sometimes, to mean "prize
for (condition of?) being the second finisher", not in its usual
sense, and I agree with Melissa that "runner-ups" sounds better than
the alternative, if she is unable to use one of the rephrasings
suggested.
Peter Moylan
> Is there any evidence of tennis players ever running?
When I play tennis, which isn't often, it's the running that knocks me out.
> I checked the date of the original post and it is
> definitely the second of April.
Now that you mention it: on the first of April this year our local paper
ran an article saying that NIB (a medical insurance company) was
offering "broken relationship insurance". Over a thousand people tried
to sign up the same day. This, despite the fact that the article was
only a few lines long and hidden away among a lot of more visible material.
My favourite April 1 article was one that appeared years ago, supposedly
by Kernighan and Ritchie, in which they admitted that the C language was
a hoax aimed at finding out how many people would think it was a serious
programming language.
Ah, I see that copies have made it onto the web:
http://www.netjeff.com/humor/item.cgi?file=c.hoax.txt
Sample section:
"We stopped when
we got a clean compile on the following syntax:
for (;P("\n"),R-;P("|"))for(e=3DC;e-;P("_"+(*u++/8)%2))P("|"+(*u/4)%2);
At one time, we joked about selling this to the Soviets to
set their computer science progress back 20 or more years."
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.