English word that rhymes with "orange"?
Mike Cleven
reference here; the book contains an intelligent baboon who knows
English but doesn't bother speaking because he doesn't consider humans
to be worth talking to; and he's supposed to know "the only English word
that rhymes with orange".....
I've puzzled over this for a long time, presuming in the end that there
is no such word. Or is there?
Near-rhymes won't do. e.g. porridge, forage etc.
Anyone?
--
Mike Cleven
http://www.cayoosh.net (Bridge River Lillooet history)
http://www.hiyu.net (Chinook Jargon phrasebook/history)
CyberCypher
news:3CF86A1...@bigfoot.com:
> Anyone who's read Tom Robbins' "Another Roadside Attraction" knows
> the reference here; the book contains an intelligent baboon who
> knows English but doesn't bother speaking because he doesn't
> consider humans to be worth talking to; and he's supposed to know
> "the only English word that rhymes with orange".....
>
> I've puzzled over this for a long time, presuming in the end that
> there is no such word. Or is there?
>
> Near-rhymes won't do. e.g. porridge, forage etc.
>
> Anyone?
"mélange", "étrange", and "orange" in French, but nothing in English.
--
Franke: ". . . when a man is in pain he doesn't think right, he only
asks for more." Charles Bukowski, "Life as a Sitcom"
Grammar 1: Internalized rules for the spoken language.
Grammar 2: Formal rules for the written language.
Grammar 1 does not equal Grammar 2.
Christopher
>
> Mike Cleven <iro...@bigfoot.com> burbled
> news:3CF86A1...@bigfoot.com:
>
> > Anyone who's read Tom Robbins' "Another Roadside Attraction" knows
> > the reference here; the book contains an intelligent baboon who
> > knows English but doesn't bother speaking because he doesn't
> > consider humans to be worth talking to; and he's supposed to know
> > "the only English word that rhymes with orange".....
> >
> > I've puzzled over this for a long time, presuming in the end that
> > there is no such word. Or is there?
> >
> > Near-rhymes won't do. e.g. porridge, forage etc.
> >
> > Anyone?
>
> "mélange", "étrange", and "orange" in French, but nothing in English.
"Door hinge" (which I suppose could be one word) appears to
be a popular candidate.
--
Christopher
Christopher
> "Door hinge" (which I suppose could be one word) appears to
> be a popular candidate.
I forgot to mention "lozenge"...
Orange rhymes with Lozenge, as shown in the Limerick by Jim Farrand:
I know of a scholar from Holland,
Who's vocab must need to be broadened,
There's no rhyme for orange?
But what about "lozenge"?
His list of word primes should be shortened!
--
Christopher
jan_...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>
>
> Orange rhymes with Lozenge, as shown in the Limerick by Jim Farrand:
>
> I know of a scholar from Holland,
> Who's vocab must need to be broadened,
> There's no rhyme for orange?
> But what about "lozenge"?
> His list of word primes should be shortened!
Sorry. Lozenge might rhyme with ozenge (which still requires a
definition) but not, to my ear, with orange.
I think there is a problem with "silver" also.
Jan Sand
jan_...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>
> Orange rhymes with Lozenge, as shown in the Limerick by Jim Farrand:
>
> I know of a scholar from Holland,
> Who's vocab must need to be broadened,
> There's no rhyme for orange?
> But what about "lozenge"?
> His list of word primes should be shortened!
I looked up orange in the Penguin Rhyming Dictionary and they provide:
binge, dinge, hinge, cringe, fringe, blunge (ceramics term), springe
(small snare), singe, tinge, whinge, swinge, twinge, unhinge,
challenge, impinge, syringe, infringe, scavenge, lozenge, as
possibilities but it seems to me they are reaching(their reach is less
than their grasp). The dictionary, otherwise, is pretty good.
For"silver" they give: silva (trees of a particular region ) and
quicksilver which is also an unsatisfactory effort.
Jan Sand
Mike Oliver
> I looked up orange in the Penguin Rhyming Dictionary and they provide:
> binge, dinge, hinge, cringe, fringe, blunge (ceramics term), springe
> (small snare), singe, tinge, whinge, swinge, twinge, unhinge,
> challenge, impinge, syringe, infringe, scavenge, lozenge, as
> possibilities but it seems to me they are reaching(their reach is less
> than their grasp). The dictionary, otherwise, is pretty good.
> For"silver" they give: silva (trees of a particular region ) and
> quicksilver which is also an unsatisfactory effort.
The wind doth smell so bittersweet
Like jasper wine and sugar
It must have blown through someone's feet
Like those of Caspar Weinberger
--anyone remember the source? No fair searching
CyberCypher
news:3cf884aa....@east.usenetserver.com:
> On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 07:10:49 GMT, Christopher <nob...@nowhere.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Orange rhymes with Lozenge, as shown in the Limerick by Jim
>> Farrand:
>>
>> I know of a scholar from Holland,
>> Who's vocab must need to be broadened,
>> There's no rhyme for orange?
>> But what about "lozenge"?
>> His list of word primes should be shortened!
>
> I looked up orange in the Penguin Rhyming Dictionary and they
> provide: binge, dinge, hinge, cringe, fringe, blunge (ceramics
> term), springe (small snare), singe, tinge, whinge, swinge,
> twinge, unhinge, challenge, impinge, syringe, infringe, scavenge,
> lozenge, as possibilities but it seems to me they are
> reaching(their reach is less than their grasp).
These are all either slant rhymes or words that have the opposite
stress, like syringe.
> The dictionary,
> otherwise, is pretty good. For"silver" they give: silva (trees of
> a particular region ) and quicksilver which is also an
> unsatisfactory effort.
--
CyberCypher
news:3CF86F1D...@nowhere.net:
Not for me or people who pronounce "orange" with a mid-Atlantic accent:
"o" is /a/ as in "father" and "ange" rhymes with "Stonehenge" not with
"hinge" and its ilk.
Bob Cunningham
> Christopher <nob...@nowhere.net> burbled
> news:3CF86F1D...@nowhere.net:
> > CyberCypher wrote:
> >> Mike Cleven <iro...@bigfoot.com> burbled
> >> news:3CF86A1...@bigfoot.com:
> >> > Anyone who's read Tom Robbins' "Another Roadside Attraction"
> >> > knows the reference here; the book contains an intelligent
> >> > baboon who knows English but doesn't bother speaking because he
> >> > doesn't consider humans to be worth talking to; and he's
> >> > supposed to know "the only English word that rhymes with
> >> > orange".....
> >> > I've puzzled over this for a long time, presuming in the end
> >> > that there is no such word. Or is there?
> >> > Near-rhymes won't do. e.g. porridge, forage etc.
> >> > Anyone?
> >> "mélange", "étrange", and "orange" in French, but nothing in
> >> English.
> > "Door hinge" (which I suppose could be one word) appears to
> > be a popular candidate.
> Not for me or people who pronounce "orange" with a mid-Atlantic accent:
> "o" is /a/ as in "father" and "ange" rhymes with "Stonehenge" not with
> "hinge" and its ilk.
The doctor says that orange
Peel is good for what I've got,
But I feel sure that laryng-
Itis it won't help a lot.
(Copyright 2002, Woody Wordpecker)
I don't pronounce "orange" to rhyme with "laryng-", but I think some
people do.
Peter T. Daniels
The point of this quasi-limerick is that _none_ of the words rhyme --
not the three in the long lines, not the two in the short lines.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Philip Eden
Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:e78hfugh15pvkehqb...@4ax.com...
in some Englishes.
Philip Eden
Christopher
>
> The wind doth smell so bittersweet
> Like jasper wine and sugar
> It must have blown through someone's feet
> Like those of Caspar Weinberger
> --anyone remember the source? No fair searching
Opus the Penguin (Bloom County)?
--
Christopher
M.J.Powell
<iro...@bigfoot.com> writes
>Anyone who's read Tom Robbins' "Another Roadside Attraction" knows the
>reference here; the book contains an intelligent baboon who knows
>English but doesn't bother speaking because he doesn't consider humans
>to be worth talking to; and he's supposed to know "the only English word
>that rhymes with orange".....
>
>I've puzzled over this for a long time, presuming in the end that there
>is no such word. Or is there?
>
>Near-rhymes won't do. e.g. porridge, forage etc.
>
>Anyone?
There's a mountain in Wales called the 'Blorenge', but I suppose that's
cheating.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Mike Cleven
> Christopher wrote:
>
>
>>"Door hinge" (which I suppose could be one word) appears to
>>be a popular candidate.
>
>
>
>
> I forgot to mention "lozenge"...
Different vowel; perhaps they rhyme properly in some dialects but not in
most...
Mike Cleven
> On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 07:10:49 GMT, Christopher <nob...@nowhere.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>> Orange rhymes with Lozenge, as shown in the Limerick by Jim Farrand:
>>
>> I know of a scholar from Holland,
>> Who's vocab must need to be broadened,
>> There's no rhyme for orange?
>> But what about "lozenge"?
>> His list of word primes should be shortened!
>
>
> I looked up orange in the Penguin Rhyming Dictionary and they provide:
> binge, dinge, hinge, cringe, fringe, blunge (ceramics term), springe
> (small snare), singe, tinge, whinge, swinge, twinge, unhinge,
> challenge, impinge, syringe, infringe, scavenge, lozenge, as
> possibilities but it seems to me they are reaching(their reach is less
> than their grasp).
Rather like the pretension by thesaurus-users and writers that
thesaurus-compiled word lists are "synonyms".
The dictionary, otherwise, is pretty good.
> For"silver" they give: silva (trees of a particular region )
said in a particular dialect; one without a hard 'r'.
and
> quicksilver which is also an unsatisfactory effort.
Especially if you drink it.
GrapeApe
closer to one syllable ARNJ Arnge Ornj.
Steve Hayes
>"Door hinge" (which I suppose could be one word) appears to
>be a popular candidate.
It doesn't rhyme in my dialect, but when I commented that American English
lacks the "aw" sound, someone pointed out that they have it in one word, and
one word only - the "o" in orange.
Now I wonder if this will attract Richard Fontana to another thread.
Perhaps if I say that the way Americans say the "o" in "orange" is my "caught"
vowel, but I say "orange" with my "cot" vowel it will bring him out of
lurking.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Mike Oliver
And a No-Prize with Miconazole goes out to Christopher!
Skitt
Start over.
Of course. I have that particular strip of Bloom County saved. I'm an Opus
fan.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel (Fawlty Towers)
Joe Fineman
> "mélange", "étrange", and "orange" in French, but nothing in
> English.
"Orange" does occur as *part of* a rhyme:
What is the rhyme for porringer?
What is the rhyme for porringer?
The king he had a daughter fair
And gave the Prince of Orange her.
-- Mother Goose
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: If you know your customers' business better than they do, you :||
||: are all in the wrong business. :||
Peter T. Daniels
>
> On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 06:52:15 GMT, Christopher <nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
> >"Door hinge" (which I suppose could be one word) appears to
> >be a popular candidate.
>
> It doesn't rhyme in my dialect, but when I commented that American English
> lacks the "aw" sound, someone pointed out that they have it in one word, and
> one word only - the "o" in orange.
>
> Now I wonder if this will attract Richard Fontana to another thread.
>
> Perhaps if I say that the way Americans say the "o" in "orange" is my "caught"
> vowel, but I say "orange" with my "cot" vowel it will bring him out of
> lurking.
I think that (for those of us who distinguish cot and caught) they're in
free variation in "orange."
Jim Heckman
On 1-Jun-2002, haye...@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 06:52:15 GMT, Christopher <nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
> >"Door hinge" (which I suppose could be one word) appears to
> >be a popular candidate.
>
> It doesn't rhyme in my dialect, but when I commented that American English
> lacks the "aw" sound, someone pointed out that they have it in one word,
> and one word only - the "o" in orange.
?? What precisely do you mean by the "aw" sound, and what American
dialects have it only in "orange"?
--
Jim Heckman
Jitze Couperus
wrote:
>Anyone who's read Tom Robbins' "Another Roadside Attraction" knows the
>reference here; the book contains an intelligent baboon who knows
>English but doesn't bother speaking because he doesn't consider humans
>to be worth talking to; and he's supposed to know "the only English word
>that rhymes with orange".....
>
>I've puzzled over this for a long time, presuming in the end that there
>is no such word. Or is there?
>
>Near-rhymes won't do. e.g. porridge, forage etc.
>
>Anyone?
>
Knock knock...
Who's there?
Orange.
Orange who?
Orange you glad you used "Dial"? [1]
[1] Catchline in a Leftpondian advertisement for a brand
of soap that may not be familiar to Rightpondians.
Jitze
Mike Cleven
Peter's own.
Mike Cleven
> CyberCypher <fra...@seed.net.tw> writes:
>
>
>>"mélange", "étrange", and "orange" in French, but nothing in
>>English.
>
>
> "Orange" does occur as *part of* a rhyme:
>
> What is the rhyme for porringer?
> What is the rhyme for porringer?
> The king he had a daughter fair
> And gave the Prince of Orange her.
Hmmmm. Nonsense words don't technically count, but Mother Goose is so
much a part of English-language culture that that has to qualify. And
perhaps this is exactly what Robbins' talking baboon had in mind.
Mike Cleven
> CyberCypher <fra...@seed.net.tw> writes:
>
>
>>"mélange", "étrange", and "orange" in French, but nothing in
>>English.
>
>
> "Orange" does occur as *part of* a rhyme:
>
> What is the rhyme for porringer?
> What is the rhyme for porringer?
> The king he had a daughter fair
> And gave the Prince of Orange her.
Postscript: the phrasing in the Robbins book says the "only English
word" so even though this rhymes, zip, close but no cigar, since it's
two words. Sigh.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Jim Heckman wrote:
> > On 1-Jun-2002, haye...@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) wrote:
> >
> >
> >>On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 06:52:15 GMT, Christopher <nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>"Door hinge" (which I suppose could be one word) appears to
> >>>be a popular candidate.
> >>
> >>It doesn't rhyme in my dialect, but when I commented that American English
> >>lacks the "aw" sound, someone pointed out that they have it in one word,
> >>and one word only - the "o" in orange.
> >
> >
> > ?? What precisely do you mean by the "aw" sound, and what American
> > dialects have it only in "orange"?
>
> Peter's own.
Peter who? Certainly not me; Christopher has never heard me speak.
Mike Cleven
Which dialect of Leftpondian would that be? I'm a Left_big_pondian and
it sounds rather eastern to me.
Mike Cleven
Depends on how you pronounce "aw". You must pronounce it some way - or
not use it at all. How's your "law"?
steve
>
>Jitze Couperus wrote:
>> On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 06:28:26 GMT, Mike Cleven <iro...@bigfoot.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Anyone who's read Tom Robbins' "Another Roadside Attraction" knows the
>>>reference here; the book contains an intelligent baboon who knows
>>>English but doesn't bother speaking because he doesn't consider humans
>>>to be worth talking to; and he's supposed to know "the only English word
>>>that rhymes with orange".....
>>>
>>>I've puzzled over this for a long time, presuming in the end that there
>>>is no such word. Or is there?
>>>
>>>Near-rhymes won't do. e.g. porridge, forage etc.
>>>
>>>Anyone?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Knock knock...
>>
>> Who's there?
>>
>> Orange.
>>
>> Orange who?
orang gae
an old man
(kata tidak umum - not a common word)
http://www.asiamaya.com/dictionary/gaek.htm
>--
>Mike Cleven
regards,
orang gae
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
[...]
>I think that (for those of us who distinguish cot and caught) they're in
>free variation in "orange."
Nope: <orange> goes with <caught>, and use of the <cot> vowel sounds
affected. (Actually, it doesn't any more, but it did when I was a
kid.)
Brian
Richard Fontana
Speak for yourself, PTD! In my dialect (New York Post-Tet
Pre-Bicentennial Prestige Standard), "orange" gets the "cart" vowel, plain
and simple. There's no free variation. This seems to be so in the other
New York accents I'm familiar with.
Mike Cleven
PTD always and only speaks for himself.
Thing is for someone not from NY, what _you_ use for "cart" isn't
anything like what I'd use; care to give me an IPA?
Mike Cleven
I always thought it convenient that orangutans were orange. Really
helped in spelling bees, if you remembered to avoid a second 'g'.
Richard Fontana
[Crossposting to sci.lang terminated with prejudice. Crossposting to
sci.lang is bad, m'kay?]
On Sat, 1 Jun 2002, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 06:52:15 GMT, Christopher <nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>
> >"Door hinge" (which I suppose could be one word) appears to
> >be a popular candidate.
>
> It doesn't rhyme in my dialect, but when I commented that American English
> lacks the "aw" sound, someone pointed out that they have it in one word, and
> one word only - the "o" in orange.
Whoever said that was dead wrong. (You're also not correct about AmE
lacking the "aw" sound, but that's another story.)
> Now I wonder if this will attract Richard Fontana to another thread.
>
> Perhaps if I say that the way Americans say the "o" in "orange" is my "caught"
> vowel, but I say "orange" with my "cot" vowel it will bring him out of
> lurking.
You can't speak of "the" way Americans say the 'o' in "orange", because
there is no "the" way. To my naive ears, there are two general
approaches, which I will call East Coast and Frontier. The East Coast
pronunciation of "orange" involves the use of the "cart" vowel; thus the
first syllable is like "are". For those East Coast speakers who are not
Eastern New England CICs, this "cart" vowel is phonemically the same as
the "cot" vowel. This is true of my accent: Post-Tet Pre-Bicentennial
Prestige Standard.
The Frontier pronunciation of "orange",
which seems to (now) be the majority pronunciation in the US, involves the
"court" vowel: the first syllable is like "or".
My guess is that you're thinking of the "ore-ange" pronunciation. It is
indeed likely that the typical American "ore" vowel is like your "caught"
vowel with added rhoticism.
Note that the Frontier pronunciation is found even in communities on what
has to be considered the East Coast. For example, my
PIOK niblings in Fairfield, Connecticut, which is
proximate to Long Island Sound and thus by definition on the East Coast,
use the Frontier pronunciation of "orange", much to my dismay and chagrin.
Actually, I recall asking my niece about this; she told me that she
recognized two words, "orange" /Ar@ndZ/ [East Coast] and "orange"
/Or@ndZ/ [Frontier]. I think she said that the East Coast pronunciation
referred to orange the *color*, and the Frontier pronunciation referred to
orange the *fruit*. It may have been the other way around (= BrE "the
other way round"), however.
Mike Cleven
Well, it would still sound affected if it were PTD saying it, wouldn't it?
CyberCypher
news:3cf99121....@enews.newsguy.com:
> On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 21:14:42 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>I think that (for those of us who distinguish cot and caught)
>>they're in free variation in "orange."
>
> Nope: <orange> goes with <caught>, and use of the <cot> vowel
> sounds affected.
That's only because of where you grew up. For people from NY City and
the NY Metro area, "orange" goes with "cot", and those who use the
"caught" vowel sound like westerners and mid-westerners who don't
distinguish between pin/pen and Mary/marry/merry; in other words, they
sound phonetically deprived. These are people who actually use the word
"whore-ible" when they mean "horrible". We always felt sorry for them.
> (Actually, it doesn't any more, but it did when I was a kid.)
We still feel sorry for them.
--
Franke: ". . . when a man is in pain he doesn't think right, he only
asks for more." Charles Bukowski, "Life as a Sitcom"
Grammar 1: Internalized rules for the spoken language.
Grammar 2: Formal rules for the written language.
Grammar 1 does not equal Grammar 2.
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
>Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 21:14:42 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>I think that (for those of us who distinguish cot and caught) they're in
>>>free variation in "orange."
>> Nope: <orange> goes with <caught>, and use of the <cot> vowel sounds
>> affected. (Actually, it doesn't any more, but it did when I was a
>> kid.)
>Well, it would still sound affected if it were PTD saying it, wouldn't it?
No, and it wouldn't make a particle of difference who was saying it.
I simply recognize a wider range of 'normal' pronunciations than I did
45-50 years ago.
Brian
Richard Fontana
[Crossposting to sci.lang continued. But crossposting is bad, m'kay?]
Well, using the celebrated Kirshenbaum Method[TM], it's got to be
something along the lines of [kArt], which probably doesn't tell you too
much. It's more or less smack in between the vowel I use in "cot", which
I think of as your basic low central unrounded vowel, and the low back
(and lightly-rounded) vowel I use in "caught".
Brian M. Scott
>b.s...@csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) burbled
>news:3cf99121....@enews.newsguy.com:
>> On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 21:14:42 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>I think that (for those of us who distinguish cot and caught)
>>>they're in free variation in "orange."
>> Nope: <orange> goes with <caught>, and use of the <cot> vowel
>> sounds affected.
>That's only because of where you grew up.
Actually, it isn't. Rather unusually, I picked up much more of my
youthful pronunciation from my parents than from the kids around me.
>For people from NY City and
>the NY Metro area, "orange" goes with "cot",
Note that this is not Peter's claim.
>and those who use the
>"caught" vowel sound like westerners and mid-westerners who don't
>distinguish between pin/pen and Mary/marry/merry; in other words, they
>sound phonetically deprived. These are people who actually use the word
>"whore-ible" when they mean "horrible". We always felt sorry for them.
Except that the people from whom I learned to pronounce <orange> and
<horrible> correctly (i.e., with the <caught> vowel) *did* distinguish
<pin> from <pen>.
[...]
Brian
Mike Cleven
> On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 04:27:56 GMT, Mike Cleven <iro...@bigfoot.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Brian M. Scott wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 21:14:42 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
>>><gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>
>>>>I think that (for those of us who distinguish cot and caught) they're in
>>>>free variation in "orange."
>>>
>
>>>Nope: <orange> goes with <caught>, and use of the <cot> vowel sounds
>>>affected. (Actually, it doesn't any more, but it did when I was a
>>>kid.)
>>
>
>>Well, it would still sound affected if it were PTD saying it, wouldn't it?
>
>
> No, and it wouldn't make a particle of difference who was saying it.
> I simply recognize a wider range of 'normal' pronunciations than I did
> 45-50 years ago.
Which means you've lost your regional biases......thank goodness someone
has. Could you work on PTD about his?
Mike Cleven
More evidence of the unnecessary complication of the American dialect(s).
Mike Cleven
Is there a real 'r' in it, or just 'r-colouring'? Or not?
CyberCypher
> On 2 Jun 2002 04:46:26 GMT, CyberCypher <fra...@seed.net.tw>
> wrote:
>
>>b.s...@csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) burbled
>>news:3cf99121....@enews.newsguy.com:
>
>>> On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 21:14:42 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
>>> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>>>I think that (for those of us who distinguish cot and caught)
>>>>they're in free variation in "orange."
>
>>> Nope: <orange> goes with <caught>, and use of the <cot> vowel
>>> sounds affected.
>
>>That's only because of where you grew up.
>
> Actually, it isn't. Rather unusually, I picked up much more of my
> youthful pronunciation from my parents than from the kids around
> me.
I used to know two Californians who did that too. One was from Van Nuys
and sounded like someone from the Bronx, and the other from San Diego
but sounded like a northern New Jerseyite
>
>>For people from NY City and
>>the NY Metro area, "orange" goes with "cot",
>
> Note that this is not Peter's claim.
Richard Fontana's claim is that "orange" goes with "cart", which is
fine with me. We seem to have similar accents.
>>and those who use the
>>"caught" vowel sound like westerners and mid-westerners who don't
>>distinguish between pin/pen and Mary/marry/merry; in other words,
>>they sound phonetically deprived. These are people who actually
>>use the word "whore-ible" when they mean "horrible". We always
>>felt sorry for them.
>
> Except that the people from whom I learned to pronounce <orange>
> and <horrible> correctly (i.e., with the <caught> vowel) *did*
> distinguish <pin> from <pen>.
Very unusual people, then. There is, BTW, no "correct" pronunciation of
"orange" or "horrible". There are two in free variation and more AmE
speakers use your version than mine, but most of them do not
distinguish pin/pen, cuaght/cot, or Mary/marry/merry. I lived in Iowa
for 8.5 years and California on and off for 20. Only context allowed me
to figure out what those folks were saying because their pronunciation
was decidedly different from mine. I won't even go into the 3 years I
spent in Atlanta or the 4 I spent in Providence, RI.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Mike Cleven wrote:
> >
> >>Jim Heckman wrote:
> >>
> >>>On 1-Jun-2002, haye...@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 06:52:15 GMT, Christopher <nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>"Door hinge" (which I suppose could be one word) appears to
> >>>>>be a popular candidate.
> >>>>
> >>>>It doesn't rhyme in my dialect, but when I commented that American English
> >>>>lacks the "aw" sound, someone pointed out that they have it in one word,
> >>>>and one word only - the "o" in orange.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>?? What precisely do you mean by the "aw" sound, and what American
> >>>dialects have it only in "orange"?
> >>
> >>Peter's own.
> >
> >
> > Peter who? Certainly not me; Christopher has never heard me speak.
>
> Depends on how you pronounce "aw". You must pronounce it some way - or
> not use it at all. How's your "law"?
It doesn't depend on anything. Christopher -- no, now it looks like it
was Steve Hayes -- made the absurd claim that there exists a dialect of
English in which a particular phoneme occurs in only one word.
As everyone here certainly knows by now, I distinguish "cot" and
"caught"; and as I said yesterday, "orange" seems to exhibit free
variation between the two and thus can be pronounced with the "law"
vowel of "caught" or with the "la" vowel of "cot."
So what, exactly, did you mean by saying that "Peter's own dialect ha[s]
the 'aw' sound only in 'orange'"?
Peter T. Daniels
>
> b.s...@csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) burbled
> news:3cf99121....@enews.newsguy.com:
>
> > On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 21:14:42 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
> > <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >>I think that (for those of us who distinguish cot and caught)
> >>they're in free variation in "orange."
> >
> > Nope: <orange> goes with <caught>, and use of the <cot> vowel
> > sounds affected.
>
> That's only because of where you grew up. For people from NY City and
> the NY Metro area, "orange" goes with "cot", and those who use the
> "caught" vowel sound like westerners and mid-westerners who don't
> distinguish between pin/pen and Mary/marry/merry; in other words, they
> sound phonetically deprived. These are people who actually use the word
> "whore-ible" when they mean "horrible". We always felt sorry for them.
No, you're referring to people who have, alas, lost the cot/caught
distinction, and I'm not. (Cot/caught merger is more widespread than
Mary/marry/merry and considerably more widepread than pin/pen.)
> > (Actually, it doesn't any more, but it did when I was a kid.)
>
> We still feel sorry for them.
Aye, we do.
Peter T. Daniels
The very definition of free variation! Some people say eckonomics, some
say eekonomics, and no one complains. (Whereas tomayto/tomahto is more
of a marker [Labov's early term for a socially conditioned distinction
that speakers are aware of]).
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
> > On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 04:27:56 GMT, Mike Cleven <iro...@bigfoot.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Brian M. Scott wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 21:14:42 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
> >>><gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >>
> >
> >>>>I think that (for those of us who distinguish cot and caught) they're in
> >>>>free variation in "orange."
> >>>
> >
> >>>Nope: <orange> goes with <caught>, and use of the <cot> vowel sounds
> >>>affected. (Actually, it doesn't any more, but it did when I was a
> >>>kid.)
> >>
> >
> >>Well, it would still sound affected if it were PTD saying it, wouldn't it?
> >
> >
> > No, and it wouldn't make a particle of difference who was saying it.
> > I simply recognize a wider range of 'normal' pronunciations than I did
> > 45-50 years ago.
>
> Which means you've lost your regional biases......thank goodness someone
> has. Could you work on PTD about his?
J. H. f. C., Cleven. Are you stupid? or drunk? The only one here with
regional biases is you -- it is you who think "sounding Canadian" is a
bad thing.
Christopher
> It doesn't depend on anything. Christopher -- no, now it looks like it
> was Steve Hayes -- made the absurd claim that there exists a dialect of
> English in which a particular phoneme occurs in only one word.
It certainly wasn't I who made this claim. In these long threads,
it can be almost impossible to work out just exactly whom is being
quoted.
This thread seems to have given up on finding a word that rhymes with
'orange' (I had proposed 'door-hinge' and 'lozenge'). Since nobody can
agree on "the" pronunciation of 'orange', I guess we will never all
agree on which words, if any, do rhyme with 'orange'.
'Lozenge' still works pretty well for me, though. :-)
--
Christopher
steve
>>>>
>>>>Knock knock...
>>>>
>>>>Who's there?
>>>>
>>>>Orange.
>>>>
>>>>Orange who?
>>>
>>
>> orang gae
>> an old man
>>
>> (kata tidak umum - not a common word)
>>
>> http://www.asiamaya.com/dictionary/gaek.htm
>>
>>
>>>--
>>>Mike Cleven
>>
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> orang gae
>
>I always thought it convenient that orangutans were orange. Really
>helped in spelling bees, if you remembered to avoid a second 'g'.
Yes, sort of an orange tan. Is Orangutan now considered an English word?
If so are Oran-gutan, Oran-gotan, and Oran-getan etc; legitimate
regional spelling variations on "the old man of the forest" or
do they have slight variations in meaning such as the one who
came first, the first or original inhabitant of the forest
as opposed to the eldest of the aboriginal ancestors?
>
>--
>Mike Cleven
regards,
steve
Kevin Plumley
wrote:
There was a little gun called a porringer, I seem to recall, which
would only be pronounced 'porrynger' in Brum, and sorry about
the 'r', but if you say 'orange around', I suppose you can muddle
through on that. I hope I am not repeating anyone's pet idea.
Christopher
> Yes, sort of an orange tan. Is Orangutan now considered an English word?
>
> If so are Oran-gutan, Oran-gotan, and Oran-getan etc; legitimate
> regional spelling variations on "the old man of the forest" or
> do they have slight variations in meaning such as the one who
> came first, the first or original inhabitant of the forest
> as opposed to the eldest of the aboriginal ancestors?
Actually, in Malay/Indonesian, orang=man and utang=forest.
Age doesn't come into it.
--
Christopher
Mike Cleven
You're the one constantly jumping all over me for it, when in fact I've
never ever said that sounding Canadian is a bad thing; this is something
you're constantly repeating so as to make it true, apparently. I won't
repeat my defenses here since you're obviously pigheaded about what you
want to be true about me so as you have something to snipe at me about.
And you do use your own accent as a reference point, as if all the rest
of us should know what you sound like, or as if you're some kind of
standard.
Kevin Plumley
wrote:
Well, so much for reliability of memory. The dictionary says
some kind of dish for 'porringer', and no, I was not thinking of a
deringer. I had it in mind for a little gun with a short thick barrel
that fired numerous shots from multiple barrels, which, rotating,
presaged the chambers of the modern revolver - It was also
called 'the snuff box', I believe, and was carried among others
by women in their muffs - Don't ask me chapter and verse, as I
saw it forty years or so ago. But does porringer under any guise
but Brum fit your bill?
Pat Durkin
"CyberCypher" <fra...@seed.net.tw> wrote in message
> >>>>they're in free variation in "orange."
> >>> Nope: <orange> goes with <caught>, and use of the <cot> vowel
> >>> sounds affected.
> >>That's only because of where you grew up.
> > Actually, it isn't. Rather unusually, I picked up much more of my
> > youthful pronunciation from my parents than from the kids around
> > me.
>
> I used to know two Californians who did that too. One was from Van
Nuys
> and sounded like someone from the Bronx, and the other from San Diego
> but sounded like a northern New Jerseyite
> >
> >>For people from NY City and the NY Metro area, "orange" goes with
"cot",
> >
> > Note that this is not Peter's claim.
>
> Richard Fontana's claim is that "orange" goes with "cart", which is
> fine with me. We seem to have similar accents.
Hey, what happened to cot/caught in this argument? I think we had
better start inserting "cart" into the picture. I hear far too many
people trying to use cot and caught to describe a vowel that is so
distorted by the "r" sound as to be an entirely separate vowel.
>
> >>and those who use the
> >>"caught" vowel sound like westerners and mid-westerners who don't
> >>distinguish between pin/pen and Mary/marry/merry; in other words,
> >>they sound phonetically deprived. These are people who actually
> >>use the word "whore-ible" when they mean "horrible". We always
> >>felt sorry for them.
> >
> > Except that the people from whom I learned to pronounce <orange>
> > and <horrible> correctly (i.e., with the <caught> vowel) *did*
> > distinguish <pin> from <pen>.
>
> Very unusual people, then. There is, BTW, no "correct" pronunciation
of
> "orange" or "horrible". There are two in free variation and more AmE
> speakers use your version than mine, but most of them do not
> distinguish pin/pen, cuaght/cot, or Mary/marry/merry. I lived in Iowa
> for 8.5 years and California on and off for 20.
You say "unusual" and "most"? Smile when you say that, Stranger. I
think (with no data to back me up, but quite a lot of variation in the
people I converse with), that an attempt to draw a circle on a map
around areas speaking a combination such as you describe, (or any other
mix) would turn a map into a chart of very small polka-dots.
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 21:14:42 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> [...]
>> >I think that (for those of us who distinguish cot and caught) they're in
>> >free variation in "orange."
>> Nope: <orange> goes with <caught>, and use of the <cot> vowel sounds
>> affected. (Actually, it doesn't any more, but it did when I was a
>> kid.)
>The very definition of free variation! Some people say eckonomics, some
>say eekonomics, and no one complains. (Whereas tomayto/tomahto is more
>of a marker [Labov's early term for a socially conditioned distinction
>that speakers are aware of]).
Ah, you were talking about global free variation; I thought that you
meant that individual speakers exhibited free variation.
Brian
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
[...]
>Which means you've lost your regional biases...
Not really. It means that they've changed somewhat and that I'm less
affected by them.
>...thank goodness someone
>has. Could you work on PTD about his?
Why?! His comments on the virtues of his phoneme system are funny.
Brian
Brian M. Scott
>b.s...@csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) burbled
>news:3cf9d040....@enews.newsguy.com:
[...]
>> Except that the people from whom I learned to pronounce <orange>
>> and <horrible> correctly (i.e., with the <caught> vowel) *did*
>> distinguish <pin> from <pen>.
>Very unusual people, then. There is, BTW, no "correct" pronunciation of
>"orange" or "horrible".
Of course there is: mine! (Sigh. I should have known that someone
would take the comment seriously.)
[...]
Brian
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>> It doesn't rhyme in my dialect, but when I commented that American English
>> lacks the "aw" sound, someone pointed out that they have it in one word,
>> and one word only - the "o" in orange.
>
>?? What precisely do you mean by the "aw" sound, and what American
>dialects have it only in "orange"?
I mean the "aw" sound in law, door, water, pork, born, pawn, porn, dawn, fawn.
The amaerican dialect that has it only in "orange" is the one that doesn't
have it in any of those other words.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Brion VIBBER
> On Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:39:47 GMT, "Jim Heckman" <wnzrfe...@lnubb.pbz>
> wrote:
>>> It doesn't rhyme in my dialect, but when I commented that American
>>> English lacks the "aw" sound, someone pointed out that they have it in
>>> one word, and one word only - the "o" in orange.
>>
>>?? What precisely do you mean by the "aw" sound, and what American
>>dialects have it only in "orange"?
>
> I mean the "aw" sound in law, door, water, pork, born, pawn, porn, dawn,
> fawn.
>
> The amaerican dialect that has it only in "orange" is the one that doesn't
> have it in any of those other words.
In my dialect (with cot/caught merger), these are two distinct vowels:
[A] - law, water, pawn, dawn, fawn
[Or] - orange, door, pork, born, porn
I'm not sure what you're getting at that "orange" might have that none of
these other words does (yet still be an "aw" sound)... Hmm, in the American
Heritage Dictionary*, I do find [Ar] listed in alternate pronunciations for
"orange" and "orator", and perhaps some other words. Is that what you're
referring to, maybe?
* Entry for "orange": http://www.bartleby.com/61/52/O0105200.html
Their pronunciation key uses o-breve where I use [A] (turned script a,
"cot-vowel") and o-circumflex for [O] (turned c, "caught-vowel").
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Peter T. Daniels
How do you get around the r vs. z?
Peter T. Daniels
>
> On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 12:07:12 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
> >> On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 21:14:42 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >> [...]
>
> >> >I think that (for those of us who distinguish cot and caught) they're in
> >> >free variation in "orange."
>
> >> Nope: <orange> goes with <caught>, and use of the <cot> vowel sounds
> >> affected. (Actually, it doesn't any more, but it did when I was a
> >> kid.)
>
> >The very definition of free variation! Some people say eckonomics, some
> >say eekonomics, and no one complains. (Whereas tomayto/tomahto is more
> >of a marker [Labov's early term for a socially conditioned distinction
> >that speakers are aware of]).
>
> Ah, you were talking about global free variation; I thought that you
> meant that individual speakers exhibited free variation.
I think I do, and it has to be attributed to Chicago contamination.
Peter T. Daniels
> > Richard Fontana's claim is that "orange" goes with "cart", which is
> > fine with me. We seem to have similar accents.
>
> Hey, what happened to cot/caught in this argument? I think we had
> better start inserting "cart" into the picture. I hear far too many
> people trying to use cot and caught to describe a vowel that is so
> distorted by the "r" sound as to be an entirely separate vowel.
John Wells lists all the r-containing syllabic nuclei as separate items
in his list of 24.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> On Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:39:47 GMT, "Jim Heckman" <wnzrfe...@lnubb.pbz>
> wrote:
>
> >> It doesn't rhyme in my dialect, but when I commented that American English
> >> lacks the "aw" sound, someone pointed out that they have it in one word,
> >> and one word only - the "o" in orange.
> >
> >?? What precisely do you mean by the "aw" sound, and what American
> >dialects have it only in "orange"?
>
> I mean the "aw" sound in law, door, water, pork, born, pawn, porn, dawn, fawn.
>
> The amaerican dialect that has it only in "orange" is the one that doesn't
> have it in any of those other words.
Ok, it was you. Where did you get the idea that such a dialect exists?
Mike Cleven
Aren't you putting the cot before the hose?
CyberCypher
It's a trait I've picked up since I began posting to AUE some 39 months
ago. Some things are sacrosanct, even among descriptivists.
Steve Hayes
<rfon...@mail.wesleyan.edu> wrote:
>On Sat, 1 Jun 2002, Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 06:52:15 GMT, Christopher <nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >"Door hinge" (which I suppose could be one word) appears to
>> >be a popular candidate.
>>
>> It doesn't rhyme in my dialect, but when I commented that American English
>> lacks the "aw" sound, someone pointed out that they have it in one word, and
>> one word only - the "o" in orange.
>
>Whoever said that was dead wrong. (You're also not correct about AmE
>lacking the "aw" sound, but that's another story.)
The person who said it was English, from Birmingham, and lived in Colorado for
a couple of years. She's now in Cyprus.
And, since she mentioned it, I recalled that I had heard some Americans
pronounce "orange" as "aw-ringe", which might rhyme with "door 'inge". If
course iif it were to do so they would have the "aw" sound in "door" too.
>> Now I wonder if this will attract Richard Fontana to another thread.
>>
>> Perhaps if I say that the way Americans say the "o" in "orange" is my "caught"
>> vowel, but I say "orange" with my "cot" vowel it will bring him out of
>> lurking.
>
>You can't speak of "the" way Americans say the 'o' in "orange", because
>there is no "the" way. To my naive ears, there are two general
>approaches, which I will call East Coast and Frontier. The East Coast
>pronunciation of "orange" involves the use of the "cart" vowel; thus the
>first syllable is like "are". For those East Coast speakers who are not
>Eastern New England CICs, this "cart" vowel is phonemically the same as
>the "cot" vowel. This is true of my accent: Post-Tet Pre-Bicentennial
>Prestige Standard.
>
>The Frontier pronunciation of "orange",
>which seems to (now) be the majority pronunciation in the US, involves the
>"court" vowel: the first syllable is like "or".
>
>My guess is that you're thinking of the "ore-ange" pronunciation. It is
>indeed likely that the typical American "ore" vowel is like your "caught"
>vowel with added rhoticism.
Thet could be the "aw-ringe" pronounciation I've heard.
>Note that the Frontier pronunciation is found even in communities on what
>has to be considered the East Coast. For example, my
>PIOK niblings in Fairfield, Connecticut, which is
>proximate to Long Island Sound and thus by definition on the East Coast,
>use the Frontier pronunciation of "orange", much to my dismay and chagrin.
>Actually, I recall asking my niece about this; she told me that she
>recognized two words, "orange" /Ar@ndZ/ [East Coast] and "orange"
>/Or@ndZ/ [Frontier]. I think she said that the East Coast pronunciation
>referred to orange the *color*, and the Frontier pronunciation referred to
>orange the *fruit*. It may have been the other way around (= BrE "the
>other way round"), however.
I pronoucne both the same way.
Jim Heckman
Does your <cot> really have turned script a? For me, <cot> has just
script a (unrounded) -- or maybe a little more forward, in the direction
of [a] -- while <caught> has [A.], turned script a (rounded) -- or maybe
slightly back and higher, in the direction of [O].
My native dialect, like yours, has the cot/caught merger, and I agree
with your division of the words above into two lines. However, I would
say that the first line has genuine [A](~[a]) in my native dialect, while
it has [A.](~[O]) in the idiolect I've developed after childhood. Both
sounds are distinct from the full-blown [O] I have in your second line,
and which for me is pretty much limited to before [j], [l] and [r].
--
Jim Heckman
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
[...]
>In my dialect (with cot/caught merger), these are two distinct vowels:
>[A] - law, water, pawn, dawn, fawn
>[Or] - orange, door, pork, born, porn
>I'm not sure what you're getting at that "orange" might have that none of
>these other words does (yet still be an "aw" sound)... Hmm, in the American
>Heritage Dictionary*, I do find [Ar] listed in alternate pronunciations for
>"orange" and "orator", and perhaps some other words. Is that what you're
>referring to, maybe?
>* Entry for "orange": http://www.bartleby.com/61/52/O0105200.html
>Their pronunciation key uses o-breve where I use [A] (turned script a,
>"cot-vowel") and o-circumflex for [O] (turned c, "caught-vowel").
[A] is generally script-a; turned-script-a is [A.].
Brian
Christopher Green
> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:e78hfugh15pvkehqb...@4ax.com...
> > On 1 Jun 2002 09:09:28 GMT, CyberCypher <fra...@seed.net.tw> said:
> >
> >
> > The doctor says that orange
> > Peel is good for what I've got,
> > But I feel sure that laryng-
> > Itis it won't help a lot.
> >
> > (Copyright 2002, Woody Wordpecker)
> >
> > I don't pronounce "orange" to rhyme with "laryng-", but I think some
> > people do.
> >
> The surname Gorringe (quite well-known in Rightpondia) works
> in some Englishes.
>
> Philip Eden
Ogden Nash wrote of a Miss Goringe who slapped him for staring at her,
when his intentions were entirely innocent: he only looked at her that
way because she represented a rhyme for "orange". One of his pet
devices was to construct a poem around a word with no known rhyme,
inventing words to serve the purpose.
--
Chris Green
Steve Hayes
>De gudkente Steve Hayes skribte:
>> On Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:39:47 GMT, "Jim Heckman" <wnzrfe...@lnubb.pbz>
>> wrote:
>>>> It doesn't rhyme in my dialect, but when I commented that American
>>>> English lacks the "aw" sound, someone pointed out that they have it in
>>>> one word, and one word only - the "o" in orange.
>>>
>>>?? What precisely do you mean by the "aw" sound, and what American
>>>dialects have it only in "orange"?
>>
>> I mean the "aw" sound in law, door, water, pork, born, pawn, porn, dawn,
>> fawn.
>>
>> The amaerican dialect that has it only in "orange" is the one that doesn't
>> have it in any of those other words.
>
>In my dialect (with cot/caught merger), these are two distinct vowels:
>
>[A] - law, water, pawn, dawn, fawn
>[Or] - orange, door, pork, born, porn
>
>I'm not sure what you're getting at that "orange" might have that none of
>these other words does (yet still be an "aw" sound)... Hmm, in the American
>Heritage Dictionary*, I do find [Ar] listed in alternate pronunciations for
>"orange" and "orator", and perhaps some other words. Is that what you're
>referring to, maybe?
Most Americans I've heard pronounce the first group as lah, wahdr, pahn, darn
But some of those who do that pronounce "orange" as "aw-ringe". But they never
seem to use the "aw" sound without a following "r".
That is why it is so difficult to describe the "aw" sound to Americans.
See:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/accent.htm
Steve Hayes
From hearing people speak it, and from being reminded that I had heard people
speak it by someone else who had heard people speak it.
Brion VIBBER
> Does your <cot> really have turned script a? For me, <cot> has just
> script a (unrounded) -- or maybe a little more forward, in the direction
> of [a] -- while <caught> has [A.], turned script a (rounded) -- or maybe
> slightly back and higher, in the direction of [O].
Oops! I indeed meant to write (not-turned) script a; I got sidetracked while
cross-referencing the pronunciation schemes of various dictionaries, and
"turned" sneaked its way in where it didna belong.
Jim Heckman
Before, you seemed to be saying that "those who do that" have what you
call "aw" *only* in "orange". Are you now saying that they have "aw" in
other words, too, but only preceding "r"?
--
Jim Heckman
Brion VIBBER
> On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 13:32:56 -0700, Brion VIBBER <br...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>De gudkente Steve Hayes skribte:
>>> On Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:39:47 GMT, "Jim Heckman" <wnzrfe...@lnubb.pbz>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> It doesn't rhyme in my dialect, but when I commented that American
>>>>> English lacks the "aw" sound, someone pointed out that they have it in
>>>>> one word, and one word only - the "o" in orange.
>>>>
>>>>?? What precisely do you mean by the "aw" sound, and what American
>>>>dialects have it only in "orange"?
>>>
>>> I mean the "aw" sound in law, door, water, pork, born, pawn, porn, dawn,
>>> fawn.
>>>
>>> The amaerican dialect that has it only in "orange" is the one that
>>> doesn't have it in any of those other words.
>>
>>In my dialect (with cot/caught merger), these are two distinct vowels:
>>
>>[A] - law, water, pawn, dawn, fawn
>>[Or] - orange, door, pork, born, porn
>>
>>I'm not sure what you're getting at that "orange" might have that none of
>>these other words does (yet still be an "aw" sound)... Hmm, in the
>>American Heritage Dictionary*, I do find [Ar] listed in alternate
>>pronunciations for "orange" and "orator", and perhaps some other words. Is
>>that what you're referring to, maybe?
>
> Most Americans I've heard pronounce the first group as lah, wahdr, pahn,
> darn
Those sound like nice normal cot-caught-merged pronunciations except for the
alleged "darn".
> But some of those who do that pronounce "orange" as "aw-ringe". But they
> never seem to use the "aw" sound without a following "r".
Right, [O] only remains in [Or] (elsewhere having become [A] in dialects
with the merger)... But [Or] is in a heck of a lot more words than 'one
word only - the "o" in orange.' Such as the already-cited door, pork, born,
and porn, which you have claimed do not contain 'the "aw" sound' in 'the
amaerican dialect that has it only in "orange"'.
Unless...? Is this a non-rhotic dialect you're talking about? (Are there
non-rhotic dialects with cot-caught merger? I have no idea...) C'mon, stop
playing coy here! We wanna know!
In any case, if there is such a dialect its characteristics certainly don't
represent "American English" at large as in your original comment.
> That is why it is so difficult to describe the "aw" sound to Americans.
Except for those in the large swath of the country that doesn't have the
cot-caught merger, presumably.
rzed
"Steve Hayes" <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3cfafa14...@news.saix.net...
I'd say that in my speech, what I would describe as an "aw" sound comes
closest to the vowel in "dog" in the samples.
What you describe here as the "aw" sound is, I think, what would appear in
"caught" in those samples, correct? That sounded (to my ear) more like my
pronunciation of "coat." If that is all true, then when you are describing
the "aw" sound to one who speaks as I do, at least, you could probably call
it an "oh" sound instead.
--
rzed
USAGE ends with AGE
Peter T. Daniels
>
> On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 21:50:16 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Steve Hayes wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:39:47 GMT, "Jim Heckman" <wnzrfe...@lnubb.pbz>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> It doesn't rhyme in my dialect, but when I commented that American English
> >> >> lacks the "aw" sound, someone pointed out that they have it in one word,
> >> >> and one word only - the "o" in orange.
> >> >
> >> >?? What precisely do you mean by the "aw" sound, and what American
> >> >dialects have it only in "orange"?
> >>
> >> I mean the "aw" sound in law, door, water, pork, born, pawn, porn, dawn, fawn.
> >>
> >> The amaerican dialect that has it only in "orange" is the one that doesn't
> >> have it in any of those other words.
> >
> >Ok, it was you. Where did you get the idea that such a dialect exists?
>
> From hearing people speak it, and from being reminded that I had heard people
> speak it by someone else who had heard people speak it.
What people did you hear speak a dialect that supposedly has /O/ ("aw")
in only one word, and what makes you think you heard every possible word
that might contain that sound?
Peter T. Daniels
>
> On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 13:32:56 -0700, Brion VIBBER <br...@pobox.com>
> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >In my dialect (with cot/caught merger), these are two distinct vowels:
>
> >[A] - law, water, pawn, dawn, fawn
> >[Or] - orange, door, pork, born, porn
The point here being that postvocalic /r/ affects the quality of a
vowel. There's no reason to posit two PHONEMES /A/ and /O/ if [O] only
appears before /r/.
Now if "cart" and "court" have different vowels, you've got two
phonemes!
> >I'm not sure what you're getting at that "orange" might have that none of
> >these other words does (yet still be an "aw" sound)... Hmm, in the American
> >Heritage Dictionary*, I do find [Ar] listed in alternate pronunciations for
> >"orange" and "orator", and perhaps some other words. Is that what you're
> >referring to, maybe?
>
> >* Entry for "orange": http://www.bartleby.com/61/52/O0105200.html
> >Their pronunciation key uses o-breve where I use [A] (turned script a,
> >"cot-vowel") and o-circumflex for [O] (turned c, "caught-vowel").
>
> [A] is generally script-a; turned-script-a is [A.].
Peter T. Daniels
Which is to say, you've never met anyone from east of the Mississippi (a
north-south river that divides the land into 2/3 ~ 1/3 and the people
about 1/2 ~ 1/2).
Which is also, as others have pointed out, not at all what you first
claimed and reiterated.
Tom Traubert
haye...@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 13:32:56 -0700, Brion VIBBER <br...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> >De gudkente Steve Hayes skribte:
> >> On Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:39:47 GMT, "Jim Heckman" <wnzrfe...@lnubb.pbz>
> >> wrote:
> >>>> It doesn't rhyme in my dialect, but when I commented that American
> >>>> English lacks the "aw" sound, someone pointed out that they have it in
> >>>> one word, and one word only - the "o" in orange.
> >>>
> >>>?? What precisely do you mean by the "aw" sound, and what American
> >>>dialects have it only in "orange"?
> >>
> >> I mean the "aw" sound in law, door, water, pork, born, pawn, porn, dawn,
> >> fawn.
> >>
> >> The amaerican dialect that has it only in "orange" is the one that doesn't
> >> have it in any of those other words.
> >
> >In my dialect (with cot/caught merger), these are two distinct vowels:
> >
> >[A] - law, water, pawn, dawn, fawn
> >[Or] - orange, door, pork, born, porn
> >
> >I'm not sure what you're getting at that "orange" might have that none of
> >these other words does (yet still be an "aw" sound)... Hmm, in the American
> >Heritage Dictionary*, I do find [Ar] listed in alternate pronunciations for
> >"orange" and "orator", and perhaps some other words. Is that what you're
> >referring to, maybe?
>
> Most Americans I've heard pronounce the first group as lah, wahdr, pahn, darn
Most Americans do not.
--
Tom
Brian M. Scott
On a reasonable guess at what Mr Hayes means by <ah>, a majority of
Americans do. His <ah> seems likely to be [A], not [a].
Brian
Tom Traubert
Brian M. Scott
<gned...@hotmail.com> wrote:
He's clearly not American. I begin with the tentative assumption that
he's heard a not wholly unrepresentative sample of Americans and that
he's making an honest attempt to describe what he's heard. I then
note the interesting slip at the end of his list, where he wrote
<darn> instead of the expected <dahn>. This is probably not a case of
hitting the wrong key, given the arrangement of a normal keyboard, so
<ar> and <ah> probably represent just about the same sound in his
speech. This confirms my earlier impression (from his original list
of words) that his English is probably non-rhotic and suggests that
it's more akin to RP than to any sort of General American. If it *is*
RP or close, his <ar> will be [A:] or thereabouts.
But we can go further. He's posting through a South African ISP.
This obviously doesn't prove that he's South African, but it does fit
nicely with the earlier guesses. Some South African accents are quite
close to RP. Moreover, according to Crystal, one of the most
noticeable characteristics of S.A. varieties is a tendency to move
[A:] (as in RP <star>) to [O:] (as in RP <store>). Thus, it's quite
likely that the sound that he's representing by <ah> and <ar> is much
further back than [a].
Any of this could be wrong, of course, but it does seem a reasonable
guess.
Brian
Jim Heckman
On 3-Jun-2002, Brion VIBBER <br...@pobox.com> wrote:
> Right, [O] only remains in [Or] (elsewhere having become [A] in dialects
> with the merger)...
Do you not have [O] before [l]? Or maybe by "remains" you're excluding
it because it developed from earlier [owl]? And certainly you must have
[O] in the diphthong [Oj]!
--
Jim Heckman
Jim Heckman
On 3-Jun-2002, "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Brian M. Scott wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 13:32:56 -0700, Brion VIBBER <br...@pobox.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > >In my dialect (with cot/caught merger), these are two distinct vowels:
> >
> > >[A] - law, water, pawn, dawn, fawn
> > >[Or] - orange, door, pork, born, porn
>
> The point here being that postvocalic /r/ affects the quality of a
> vowel. There's no reason to posit two PHONEMES /A/ and /O/ if [O] only
> appears before /r/.
>
> Now if "cart" and "court" have different vowels, you've got two
> phonemes!
If he's like me, which he seems to be, they do and he does.
--
Jim Heckman
Lee Sau Dan
Mike> Anyone who's read Tom Robbins' "Another Roadside Attraction"
Mike> knows the reference here; the book contains an intelligent
Mike> baboon who knows English but doesn't bother speaking because
Mike> he doesn't consider humans to be worth talking to; and he's
Mike> supposed to know "the only English word that rhymes with
Mike> orange".....
Syringe?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)
E-mail: dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Brion VIBBER
>> On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 13:32:56 -0700, Brion VIBBER <br...@pobox.com>
>> wrote:
>> >In my dialect (with cot/caught merger), these are two distinct vowels:
>>
>> >[A] - law, water, pawn, dawn, fawn
>> >[Or] - orange, door, pork, born, porn
>
> The point here being that postvocalic /r/ affects the quality of a
> vowel.
Quite true.
> There's no reason to posit two PHONEMES /A/ and /O/ if [O] only
> appears before /r/.
Unless...
> Now if "cart" and "court" have different vowels, you've got two
> phonemes!
Which they do.
Brion VIBBER
>
>> Right, [O] only remains in [Or] (elsewhere having become [A] in dialects
>> with the merger)...
>
> Do you not have [O] before [l]? Or maybe by "remains" you're excluding
> it because it developed from earlier [owl]?
Hmm, now that I think about it, I believe I do have [Ol] in such words as
<old>, <poll>, <bold>, <gold> etc. Leastwise, the rounding seems to come in
much earlier than I would expect it with [owl].
But as you say, these are not retained form olde-tyme [Ol], which becomes
[Al] in <all>, <pall>, <Paul>, <gall>, <Gaul>, etc.
> And certainly you must have
> [O] in the diphthong [Oj]!
Definitely those, yes! Slipped my mind...
Perhaps I should have said that [O] only remains in diphtongs and where it
is colored by a liquid, and anywhere else that I haven't yet noticed it
cropping up.
Peter T. Daniels
Then, ipso facto, you _don't_ have cot/caught merger!
Neale Pickett
> Most Americans I've heard pronounce the first group as lah, wahdr,
> pahn, darn
>
> But some of those who do that pronounce "orange" as "aw-ringe". But
> they never seem to use the "aw" sound without a following "r".
My mother, who has an Oklahoma accent, occasionally pronounces orange as
one syllable, "arndj", with the sharp R typical of western American
accents. Although raised in New Mexico, where "orange" typically gets
two syllables, I use the monosylabic pronounciation exclusively. I have
found several other relatives from Oklahoma who employ this
pronunciation as well.
Unfortunately, I have been unable to think of a word which rhymes with
the "Oklahoma arndj".
--
unsigned long long nl = 06255430262516U; char *neale = (char *)&nl;
Pat Durkin
"Lee Sau Dan" <dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote in message
news:m3elfo6...@mika.informatik.uni-freiburg.de...
> >>>>> "Mike" == Mike Cleven <iro...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
> Mike> Anyone who's read Tom Robbins' "Another Roadside Attraction"
> Mike> knows the reference here; the book contains an intelligent
> Mike> baboon who knows English but doesn't bother speaking because
> Mike> he doesn't consider humans to be worth talking to; and he's
> Mike> supposed to know "the only English word that rhymes with
> Mike> orange".....
>
> Syringe?
>
>
"only one word in the English language that rhymes with orange" claim.
I hope that after seeing the length of this thread, Mike will post the
answer here.
Brion VIBBER
Well then, you'd better have an explanation for why my "cot" and "caught"
are identical that doesn't include "cot/caught merger"!
Peter T. Daniels
Nu, has anyone previously reported a dialect of English where they DON'T
merge when "protected" by a following /r/? What's the realization of the
/r/, BTW? Is it a consonant, or is it manifested solely in the quality
of one or t'other of the vowels? Does cot/caught match cart or court?
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Brion VIBBER wrote:
>> De gudkente Peter T. Daniels skribte:
[...]
>> > Now if "cart" and "court" have different vowels, you've got two
>> > phonemes!
>> Which they do.
>Then, ipso facto, you _don't_ have cot/caught merger!
What do you call the common phenomenon of people who merge the vowels
of <cot> (<cod>, <collar>) and <caught> (<cawed>, <caller>) but not
those of <cart> and <court>?
Brian
Steve Hayes
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> >[A] - law, water, pawn, dawn, fawn
>> >[Or] - orange, door, pork, born, porn
>
>The point here being that postvocalic /r/ affects the quality of a
>vowel. There's no reason to posit two PHONEMES /A/ and /O/ if [O] only
>appears before /r/.
It only only appears before r in some American accents, but in other parts of
the world it appears independently of the r, as in law, pawn etc.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
If in their speech "door hinge" rhymes with "orange" it's quite possible.
Steve Hayes
>> But some of those who do that pronounce "orange" as "aw-ringe". But they
>> never seem to use the "aw" sound without a following "r".
>
>Right, [O] only remains in [Or] (elsewhere having become [A] in dialects
>with the merger)... But [Or] is in a heck of a lot more words than 'one
>word only - the "o" in orange.' Such as the already-cited door, pork, born,
>and porn, which you have claimed do not contain 'the "aw" sound' in 'the
>amaerican dialect that has it only in "orange"'.
>
>Unless...? Is this a non-rhotic dialect you're talking about? (Are there
>non-rhotic dialects with cot-caught merger? I have no idea...) C'mon, stop
>playing coy here! We wanna know!
>
>In any case, if there is such a dialect its characteristics certainly don't
>represent "American English" at large as in your original comment.
Then it reverts to my original point, that it is very hard to explain to most
Americans what the "aw" sound is because it doesn't exist in most American
dialects.
Someone claimed that theyb had found it in the way some Aemricans say
"orange", but it appeatrs that most Americans deny thiat it exists there too.
So scratch that.
Go back to the original: It is impossible to explain the "aw" sound to
Americans because even if some American dialect does have it, other Americans
will deny it.
>
>> That is why it is so difficult to describe the "aw" sound to Americans.
>
>Except for those in the large swath of the country that doesn't have the
>cot-caught merger, presumably.
>
>-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
--
Steve Hayes
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Steve Hayes wrote:
>> That is why it is so difficult to describe the "aw" sound to Americans.
>
>Which is to say, you've never met anyone from east of the Mississippi (a
>north-south river that divides the land into 2/3 ~ 1/3 and the people
>about 1/2 ~ 1/2).
>
>Which is also, as others have pointed out, not at all what you first
>claimed and reiterated.
Sorry, I've no idea what you're on about.
I do know that Connie Mulder found in his thesis that one version of hopscotch
was played east of a line drawn between Kakamas and Bredasdorp and a different
version was played to the west of it.
Steve Hayes
>> Most Americans I've heard pronounce the first group as lah, wahdr, pahn, darn
>
>Most Americans do not.
So the ones I've heard aren't typical.
I've heard one who didn't. He came from Osceola Mills in Pennyslvania.