Re: The hoi polloi means posh?
toc
news:yU6ik.22273$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> My partner uses the phrase "hoi polloi" to mean the snooty people around
> town. But my son reckons she's got it wrong.
> Has she?
> CN
No, the hoi polloi means the common people, the "herd", the "great unwashed"
or whatever other insult you want.
You can find a discussion in the "Word for Word" archive at
http://brismail.com/wfw/articles.htm.
Cheers.
Word for Word is BACK!
Get your fix of words and language info
at http://brismail.com/wfw/articles.htm
Richard Yates
>> town. But my son reckons she's got it wrong.
>> Has she?
>> CN
>
> No, the hoi polloi means the common people, the "herd", the "great
> unwashed"
> or whatever other insult you want.
The misuse probably migrated from "hoity-toity" with which it sort of
rhymes.
FCS
I think the answer to the question posed
is "yes, she has got it wrong has your partner
as the hoi polloi is a term traditionally used
by the snooty people around town to refer
to the common herd. As such, your son is
indeed correct."
G DAEB
COPYRIGT (C) 2008 SIPSTON
--
The UnInmate
"toc" <tocw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:PZ6ik.22274$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> "Capt Nemo" <ne...@nemo.com> wrote in message
> news:yU6ik.22273$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> My partner uses the phrase "hoi polloi" to mean the snooty people around
>> town. But my son reckons she's got it wrong.
>> Has she?
>> CN
>
> No, the hoi polloi means the common people, the "herd", the "great
> unwashed"
Isn't Aristotle's original Greek term "hoi polloi" usually translated as
"the great unwashed"--which is a nonsense phrase in English but, in
Aristotle, expresses an aristocrat's condescension by referring to the fact
that most people in his day did not bathe as frequently as he liked? I'm
happy to be corrected here.
Jim Karatassos
> "toc" <tocwo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:PZ6ik.22274$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> > "Capt Nemo" <n...@nemo.com> wrote in message
> >news:yU6ik.22273$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >> My partner uses the phrase "hoi polloi" to mean the snooty people around
> >> town. But my son reckons she's got it wrong.
> >> Has she?
> >> CN
>
> > No, the hoi polloi means the common people, the "herd", the "great
> > unwashed"
>
> Isn't Aristotle's original Greek term "hoi polloi" usually translated as
> "the great unwashed"--which is a nonsense phrase in English but, in
> Aristotle, expresses an aristocrat's condescension by referring to the fact
> that most people in his day did not bathe as frequently as he liked? I'm
> happy to be corrected here.
"Hoi polloi" really is literally translated as "the many," and I'm one
of the pedants identified in Word-for-Word who feel that "the hoi
polloi" is an illiterate term used primarily by ignorant poseurs or
multilingual stutterers.
Of course, my ethnic background has something to do with that. It's
unreasonably funny when I as a Greek speaker hear some pompous ass use
it, especially one that makes an effort to say it with some kind of
nasal foreign flavor, which a surprising number do (before I tell them
my last name and they get a hunted look in the back of their eyes).
That kind of pretension has undergone a kind of Renaissance in recent
years.
I've heard that story about Aristotle, too, but it has no basis in the
actual translation of those two words. There may be some context issue
I'm unaware of.
tinwhistler
> "toc" <tocwo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:PZ6ik.22274$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> > "Capt Nemo" <n...@nemo.com> wrote in message
> >news:yU6ik.22273$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >> My partner uses the phrase "hoi polloi" to mean the snooty people around
> >> town. But my son reckons she's got it wrong.
> >> Has she?
> >> CN
>
> > No, the hoi polloi means the common people, the "herd", the "great
> > unwashed"
>
> Isn't Aristotle's original Greek term "hoi polloi" usually translated as
> "the great unwashed"--which is a nonsense phrase in English but, in
> Aristotle, expresses an aristocrat's condescension by referring to the fact
> that most people in his day did not bathe as frequently as he liked? I'm
> happy to be corrected here.
Well, for a nonsense phrase, THE GREAT UNWASHED has had a meme-like
existence in English; eg, see:
http://www.bartleby.com/81/7549.html
Great Unwashed (The). The artisan class. Burke first used the
compound, but Sir Walter Scott popularised it.
--
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
retrosorter
>
> - Show quoted text -
hoity-toity comes from the French haut toit,"high roof" and the idea
is of looking down on people from your high vantage point,
the Omrud
Has nobody quoted WS Gilbert? No? Iolanthe:
PEERS: Our lordly style
You shall not quench
With base canaille!
FAIRIES: (That word is French.)
PEERS: Distinction ebbs
Before a herd
Of vulgar plebs!
FAIRIES: (A Latin word.)
PEERS: 'Twould fill with joy,
And madness stark
The hoi polloi!
FAIRIES: (A Greek remark.)
--
David, in SW France
Athel Cornish-Bowden
>
> "toc" <tocw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:PZ6ik.22274$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> "Capt Nemo" <ne...@nemo.com> wrote in message
>> news:yU6ik.22273$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>> My partner uses the phrase "hoi polloi" to mean the snooty people around
>>> town. But my son reckons she's got it wrong.
>>> Has she?
>>> CN
>>
>> No, the hoi polloi means the common people, the "herd", the "great
>> unwashed"
>
> Isn't Aristotle's original Greek term "hoi polloi" usually translated as
> "the great unwashed"-
If it's usually translated like that it's usually translated wrongly
because that's not what the Greek means: it means "many" -- "hoi" is
the definite article, but it's used a lot more in Greek than it is in
English, so it's best left untranslated. If you do translate it then
"the hoi polloi" means "the the many".
> -which is a nonsense phrase in English but, in
> Aristotle, expresses an aristocrat's condescension by referring to the fact
> that most people in his day did not bathe as frequently as he liked? I'm
> happy to be corrected here.
I doubt whether the phrase came from Aristotle as it's a perfectly
everyday phrase: would you attribute an everyday word like "many" to
Shakespeare?
--
athel (BrE)
Richard R. Hershberger
> On Jul 24, 8:06 pm, "The UnInmate" <relapcc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "toc" <tocwo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:PZ6ik.22274$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> > > "Capt Nemo" <n...@nemo.com> wrote in message
> > >news:yU6ik.22273$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > >> My partner uses the phrase "hoi polloi" to mean the snooty people around
> > >> town. But my son reckons she's got it wrong.
> > >> Has she?
> > >> CN
>
> > > No, the hoi polloi means the common people, the "herd", the "great
> > > unwashed"
>
> > Isn't Aristotle's original Greek term "hoi polloi" usually translated as
> > "the great unwashed"--which is a nonsense phrase in English but, in
> > Aristotle, expresses an aristocrat's condescension by referring to the fact
> > that most people in his day did not bathe as frequently as he liked? I'm
> > happy to be corrected here.
>
> "Hoi polloi" really is literally translated as "the many," and I'm one
> of the pedants identified in Word-for-Word who feel that "the hoi
> polloi" is an illiterate term used primarily by ignorant poseurs or
> multilingual stutterers.
By contrast, I feel that people who use "hoi polloi" rather than "the
hoi polloi" (in a context where English syntax requires the definite
article) are pretentious and affected, sacrificing natural language
for the sake of demonstrating that they know the "rule" about how to
use "hoi polloi".
If someone uses "the hoi polloi" there is no basis for supposing him
to be a "multilingual stutterer", as he has used a standard English
expression (with partially non-English roots, but so what?)
Similarly, there is no basis for believing him to be an "ignorant
poseur" for correctly using an expression that has been in the English
language since at least the first half of the 19th century.
Richard R. Hershberger
Capt Nemo
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> On Jul 24, 8:06 pm, "The UnInmate" <relapcc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "toc" <tocwo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:PZ6ik.22274$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> > > "Capt Nemo" <n...@nemo.com> wrote in message
> > >news:yU6ik.22273$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > >> My partner uses the phrase "hoi polloi" to mean the snooty people around
> > >> town. But my son reckons she's got it wrong.
> > >> Has she?
> > >> CN
>
> > > No, the hoi polloi means the common people, the "herd", the "great
> > > unwashed"
Though if "snob" made it all the way from "common people" to "snooty
people", maybe "hoi polloi" will do the same.
> > Isn't Aristotle's original Greek term "hoi polloi" usually translated as
> > "the great unwashed"--which is a nonsense phrase in English
Hardly nonsense--it's perfectly understandable. I admit the grammar
is strange, though. I can't think of any other examples of a non-
restrictive adjective before an adjective acting as a plural noun.
> > but, in
> > Aristotle, expresses an aristocrat's condescension by referring to the fact
> > that most people in his day did not bathe as frequently as he liked? I'm
> > happy to be corrected here.
>
> "Hoi polloi" really is literally translated as "the many," and I'm one
> of the pedants identified in Word-for-Word who feel that "the hoi
> polloi" is an illiterate term used primarily by ignorant poseurs or
> multilingual stutterers.
...
If you were here in New Mexico, you could go to a show at the El Rey
Theater. (Maybe it's "Theatre", but I'm being hopeful.)
--
Jerry Friedman
HVS
OK; I give up: that looks like "The King Theater" to me.
What cross-language redundancey am I missing?
(Redundancies from adopting foreign words are, of course, very common
- Sierra Nevada Mountains, or Pentor Hill; that sort of thing.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>On 25 Jul 2008, jerry_f...@yahoo.com wrote
>> On Jul 24, 6:46 pm, Jim Karatassos <jim.karatas...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>> "Hoi polloi" really is literally translated as "the many," and
>>> I'm one of the pedants identified in Word-for-Word who feel
>>> that "the hoi polloi" is an illiterate term used primarily by
>>> ignorant poseurs or multilingual stutterers.
>> ...
>>
>> If you were here in New Mexico, you could go to a show at the El
>> Rey Theater. (Maybe it's "Theatre", but I'm being hopeful.)
>
>OK; I give up: that looks like "The King Theater" to me.
>
>What cross-language redundancey am I missing?
>
"The El ...".
>(Redundancies from adopting foreign words are, of course, very common
>- Sierra Nevada Mountains, or Pentor Hill; that sort of thing.)
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
HVS
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:47:17 +0100, HVS
><use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 25 Jul 2008, jerry_f...@yahoo.com wrote
>>> On Jul 24, 6:46 pm, Jim Karatassos <jim.karatas...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> "Hoi polloi" really is literally translated as "the many,"
>>>> and I'm one of the pedants identified in Word-for-Word who
>>>> feel that "the hoi polloi" is an illiterate term used
>>>> primarily by ignorant poseurs or multilingual stutterers.
>>> ...
>>>
>>> If you were here in New Mexico, you could go to a show at the
>>> El Rey Theater. (Maybe it's "Theatre", but I'm being
>>> hopeful.)
>>
>> OK; I give up: that looks like "The King Theater" to me.
>>
>> What cross-language redundancey am I missing?
>>
>
> "The El ...".
Ah; must be blind tonight. Again. Still.
Thanks.
>> (Redundancies from adopting foreign words are, of course, very
>> common - Sierra Nevada Mountains, or Pentor Hill; that sort of
>> thing.)
>
--
Jim Karatassos
> By contrast, I feel that people who use "hoi polloi" rather than "the
> hoi polloi" (in a context where English syntax requires the definite
> article) are pretentious and affected, sacrificing natural language
> for the sake of demonstrating that they know the "rule" about how to
> use "hoi polloi".
You have something of a point, but I would certainly expect someone
with a last name like "Hershberger" to feel that way.
> If someone uses "the hoi polloi" there is no basis for supposing him
> to be a "multilingual stutterer", as he has used a standard English
> expression (with partially non-English roots, but so what?)
> Similarly, there is no basis for believing him to be an "ignorant
> poseur" for correctly using an expression that has been in the English
> language since at least the first half of the 19th century.
>
> Richard R. Hershberger-
Come on...do you really feel that "hoi polloi" or "the hoi polloi" is
"a standard English expression"? Sure, it's been around since the
nineteenth century and earlier, but so has "et hoc genus omne." When
was the last time you heard someone say, "and et cetera"? Is that a
standard English expression, too?
I've heard "(the) hoi polloi" far too more often in the mouths of
asswipes to believe that this expression in English is anything other
than one of the standard "foreign-flavor" expressions that individuals
who study the sciences and then turn language pundits use to sound
edumacated (and to hide the fact that they're fewer than three
generations out of the mines, off the docks, or out from behind the
plow).
Other examples of English utterances in this group would include using
"transpire" for "occur" instead of "come out," and "via" for "by means
of" and not "by way of."
And of course, this expression is obviously a pet peeve of mine, as an
English professional of ethnic Greek origin, and one who is damned
proud of my grandpappy, who started off in the States breaking his
back in the port of New York and died with a million five to his name.
"The hoi polloi," indeed...
Jim Karatassos
<jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
> If you were here in New Mexico, you could go to a show at the El Rey
> Theater. (Maybe it's "Theatre", but I'm being hopeful.)
>
> --
> Jerry Friedman- Hide quoted text -
"Theater," dude. I haven't been to "les theatres" for quite some time.
Richard R. Hershberger
> On Jul 25, 3:46 pm, "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrhe...@acme.com> wrote:
>
> > By contrast, I feel that people who use "hoi polloi" rather than "the
> > hoi polloi" (in a context where English syntax requires the definite
> > article) are pretentious and affected, sacrificing natural language
> > for the sake of demonstrating that they know the "rule" about how to
> > use "hoi polloi".
>
> You have something of a point, but I would certainly expect someone
> with a last name like "Hershberger" to feel that way.
Ooh! Straight for the ad hominem! Good for you! Let's skip the
dreary intermediate steps of fact and logic. I can play, too! I
suspect your penis to be of small size in both length and girth, and
therefore I reject any argument you might make.
Jim Karatassos
wrote:
<snipped to gist>
> > You have something of a point, but I would certainly expect someone
> > with a last name like "Hershberger" to feel that way.
> Ooh! Straight for the ad hominem! Good for you! Let's skip the
> dreary intermediate steps of fact and logic. I can play, too! I
> suspect your penis to be of small size in both length and girth, and
> therefore I reject any argument you might make.
Whoa! Please look again.
What I meant to point out is that my own last name is Greek and yours
most definitely isn't. There was no personal slur intended.
If you do speak Greek, on the other hand, you won't need the
translation following the paragraph below. Even so, you should be able
to make out enough of it from the Latinized spelling to understand my
point.
------------------------
Ego den hyoptevoume katholou gia to megethos apo to diko sou geniko
organo. Episis, to gegonos pos h mitera sou se onomase "Poutso" mporei
na updikni pos hxere kati pou ego den xero.
I have no suspicions whatsoever about the size of your own
reproductive organs. Moreover, the fact that your mother named you
"Dick" may indicate she knew something that I don't.
-------------------------
Despite the general slurs that abound about my own ethnicity, I have
no wish to actually find out.
As for dreary intermediate steps of fact and logic, well, it's you who
would insist that there is nothing suspect about the term "the hoi
polloi." Once again, how do you feel about "and et cetera"? You're
comfortable with "ad hominem," so you probably know enough Latin to
wince when you hear that.
HVS
> On Jul 25, 11:46 pm, "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrhe...@acme.com>
> wrote:
>
><snipped to gist>
>
>>> You have something of a point, but I would certainly expect
>>> someone with a last name like "Hershberger" to feel that way.
>
>> Ooh! Straight for the ad hominem! Good for you! Let's skip
>> the dreary intermediate steps of fact and logic. I can play,
>> too! I suspect your penis to be of small size in both length
>> and girth, and therefore I reject any argument you might make.
>
> Whoa! Please look again.
>
> What I meant to point out is that my own last name is Greek and
> yours most definitely isn't. There was no personal slur
> intended.
In that case, you should have worded it a *lot* more carefully than
you did.
I read it as Richard did: straightforward ad hominem attack, based
on the perceived origin of his name.
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> As for dreary intermediate steps of fact and logic, well, it's you who
> would insist that there is nothing suspect about the term "the hoi
> polloi." Once again, how do you feel about "and et cetera"? You're
> comfortable with "ad hominem," so you probably know enough Latin to
> wince when you hear that.
I tuned in late, and maybe someone else has already pointed out that
there's an item in the AUE FAQ about this, but just in case:
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxthethe.html
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to visit the La Brea Tar Pits.
--
Bob Lieblich
Who used to follow The Los Angeles Dodgers
tony cooper
wrote:
I read it as it was intended because Jim has made many other
references to being Greek. However, I also read it as an unfortunate
choice of phrasing that could easily be taken for a slur.
Had he been replying to someone named "Johnson", he would not have had
a problem.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Chuck Riggs
Your son is right: she has it backwards.
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
Jonathan Morton
news:4aim84tbjfj48ihr3...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 15:10:50 +0100, HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>
> wrote:
>>In that case, you should have worded it a *lot* more carefully than
>>you did.
>>
>>I read it as Richard did: straightforward ad hominem attack, based
>>on the perceived origin of his name.
I'm sure it should be "to the ad hominem".
> I read it as it was intended because Jim has made many other
> references to being Greek. However, I also read it as an unfortunate
> choice of phrasing that could easily be taken for a slur.
I also took it as Richard did. If that isn't what Jim meant, then he might
like to calm down and make it clear.
> Had he been replying to someone named "Johnson", he would not have had
> a problem.
Unless it was perceived as anti-Scandinavian, of course. Johnson and Miller
are often quoted (in Britain) as being names that are much commoner in North
America than they are in Britain - because of anglicisation of Scandinavian
and German names. Is that true, incidentally?
Regards
Jonathan
Jim Karatassos
<cut down>
> I read it as Richard did: straightforward ad hominem attack, based
> on the perceived origin of his name.
Wow. That's just so much not my style that I actually didn't think it.
Granted, I write far too many of these posts at 3 in the morning, so
my judgment may be off, but...no...I was pointing out my Greekness and
not Richard's whateverness.
Jim Karatassos
<significantly cut down>
> I read it as it was intended because Jim has made many other
> references to being Greek. However, I also read it as an unfortunate
> choice of phrasing that could easily be taken for a slur.
Hershberger...is the man Jewish?
If he's Jewish, I can understand this better. In general, Greeks have
a nasty history of anti-Semitism. I lived there for six-some years
and, for the life of me, I cannot understand just how so many of the
world's problems can be blamed on a people one knows nothing about,
because in all my time in Greece, I did not meet a single Jew who
would feel comfortable living there. It's difficult to explain of the
grinding poverty of thought that comes from blaming the Jews, the
Jews, the Jews for everything.
R H Draney
>> on the perceived origin of his name.
>
>
>Wow. That's just so much not my style that I actually didn't think it.
>Granted, I write far too many of these posts at 3 in the morning, so
>my judgment may be off, but...no...I was pointing out my Greekness and
>not Richard's whateverness.
Other than his non-Greekness, that is...his "barbarianness", if you will....r
--
Evelyn Wood just looks at the pictures.
mb
> On Jul 25, 11:10 pm, Jim Karatassos
> > > By contrast, I feel that people who use "hoi polloi" rather than "the
> > > hoi polloi" (in a context where English syntax requires the definite
> > > article) are pretentious and affected, sacrificing natural language
> > > for the sake of demonstrating that they know the "rule" about how to
> > > use "hoi polloi".
>
> > You have something of a point, but I would certainly expect someone
> > with a last name like "Hershberger" to feel that way.
>
> Ooh! Straight for the ad hominem! Good for you! Let's skip the
> dreary intermediate steps of fact and logic.
There is no ad hominem argument because he did provide abundant facts
and logic. So this personal attack is only in addition to the
argument.
> I can play, too! I
> suspect your penis to be of small size in both length and girth, and
> therefore I reject any argument you might make.
Stupid.
Anyway, some knowledge of Greek was a requirement, until recently
enough, for an educated person. So you'll see that double-articling it
in writing does not start until relatively recently. Even in our
times, it is mainly committed by the same ignoramuses who go driving
on the el camino real.
Frank ess
Zero for three. Nye swerk.
--
Frank ess
Philip Eden
> Come on...do you really feel that "hoi polloi" or "the hoi polloi" is
> "a standard English expression"? Sure, it's been around since the
> mineteenth century and earlier, but so has "et hoc genus omne." When
> was the last time you heard someone say, "and et cetera"? Is that a
> standard English expression, too?
These coincidences seem to happen with an unnatural frequency,
but I just caught a snippet of a 1979 film called "The Knowledge"
on the telly where the late, great Nigel Hawthorne concludes a
lengthy lecture to his students ".... et cetera, et cetera, and et
cetera." It was done, of course, for humorous effect, but to
answer you question, the last time I heard someone say, "and
et cetera" was a few moments ago.
Philip Eden
Peacenik
news:488ba8d6$0$2526$da0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
> "Jim Karatassos" <jim.kar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> When
>> was the last time you heard someone say, "and et cetera"? Is that a
>> standard English expression, too?
...
> the last time I heard someone say, "and
> et cetera" was a few moments ago.
Which brings me to a pet peeve of mine in editing the English written by
native Chinese speakers:
"such as A, B, and C......etc." (the "such as" being redundant with "etc.",
the "and" being extraneous when "etc>' is used, plus the use of the Chinese
"six-dot ellipsis" to mean "and so on")
This, in turn, reminds me of another pet peeve:
"including A, B, and C" when A, B and C form an exhaustive list.
("including" should be used when an incomplete list follows; otherwise use
something like "comprising")
Jonathan Morton
news:g6guhm$lru$1...@news.seed.net.tw...
>
> This, in turn, reminds me of another pet peeve:
>
> "including A, B, and C" when A, B and C form an exhaustive list.
> ("including" should be used when an incomplete list follows; otherwise use
> something like "comprising")
Which, in turn, reminds me of another pet peeve:
English lawyers, of whom I am one, have developed an alarming habit of
inserting, in the definition section of documents, something along the lines
of:
"There shall be deemed to be inserted after the word 'including' the words
'but not limited to'".
I always strike this out.
Do maths students still get taught dear old Venn diagrams? They were an
incredibly useful tool in the field of basic logic.
Regards
Jonathan
Jim Karatassos
<jonat...@jonathanmortonbutignorethisbit.co.uk> wrote:
<snipped>
> Do maths students still get taught dear old Venn diagrams? They were an
> incredibly useful tool in the field of basic logic.
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan
I got them in a basic philosophy class.
Leslie Danks
For all those contemplating switching to linux without ditching essential
Windows applications, the VMware logo [1] is a Venn diagram using squares
instead of circles.
[1]
<http://www.vmware.com/files/pdf/VMware_Logo_Usage_and_Trademark_Guidelines_Q307.pdf>
<http://tinyurl.com/65rj89>
--
Les
Jim Karatassos
<snip>
> Anyway, some knowledge of Greek was a requirement, until recently
> enough, for an educated person. So you'll see that double-articling it
> in writing does not start until relatively recently. Even in our
> times, it is mainly committed by the same ignoramuses who go driving
> on the el camino real.
The unfortunate truth is that the longer this thread goes on, the more
salient Mr. Richard R. Hershberger's point becomes. I wouldn't blink
an eye at somone who told me: "the El Camino is an ugly car." The
expression "the hoi polloi" obviously just bugs me as much as it does
because I was brought up bilingual and"hoi polloi" just consists of
two high-usage, pedestrian words in all varieties of Greek from
ancient to modern, words that I've known and used in conversations
since before I turned three.
I can't say "the many" in Japanese, but I am damned sure that the
Japanese would jeer loudly were it to become the same ridiculous kind
of, as Mark Twain put it, "illustrated, gilt-edged, tree-calf, hand-
tooled, seven-dollar Friendship's Offering" expression that "the hoi
polloi" is nowadays, and misused to boot.
I just wish that I had found a different way to say this yesterday.
Leslie Danks
[...]
> For all those contemplating switching to linux without ditching
"... switching to Linux", of course; it's not a hoover (yet) and it
doesn't suck.
[...]
--
Les
Chuck Riggs
And there was something very useful about de Morgan's Theorem,
although I may have the spelling wrong, it was so long ago.
R H Draney
>
>English lawyers, of whom I am one, have developed an alarming habit of
>inserting, in the definition section of documents, something along the lines
>of:
>
>"There shall be deemed to be inserted after the word 'including' the words
>'but not limited to'".
>
>I always strike this out.
Over here, instead of adding an explicit instruction that the words are "deemed
to be inserted", they actually go ahead and insert them all over the place...I
can see the day when the two traditions collide, requiring someone to read
"including but not limited to" as "including but not limited to but not limited
to"....
>Do maths students still get taught dear old Venn diagrams? They were an
>incredibly useful tool in the field of basic logic.
Useful up to about three circles, and then they get unwieldy...better to start
off with Veitch diagrams which can be understood with up to six "circles"
without much additional training....r
mb
> I wouldn't blink
> an eye at somone who told me: "the El Camino is an ugly car."
But that is a different story. You wouldn't blink an eye, either, to
someone saying "The 'Hoi Polloi' is a horrible rock band".
Richard R. Hershberger
> enough, for an educated person. So you'll see that double-articling it
> in writing does not start until relatively recently. Even in our
> times, it is mainly committed by the same ignoramuses who go driving
> on the el camino real.
This is factually incorrect. The construction "the hoi polloi" is
much older than either its condemnation or the construction absent the
English article. See the note Robert Lieblich linked to elsethread.
Richard R. Hershberger
mb
Correction much appreciated. Checks with a couple other such.
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
From a quick look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karnaugh_map I'll
stick with Venn diagrams rather than messing with the Veitch ones. Old
dogs, you know.
Barbara Bailey
> "Jonathan Morton" wrote:
>
> <snipped>
>
>> Do maths students still get taught dear old Venn diagrams? They were an
>> incredibly useful tool in the field of basic logic.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Jonathan
>
> I got them in a basic philosophy class.
>
I first got them in a first-year college Intro To Logic class.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> Jim Karatassos wrote:
> > "Jonathan Morton" wrote:
>
> > <snipped>
>
> >> Do maths students still get taught dear old Venn diagrams? They were an
> >> incredibly useful tool in the field of basic logic.
> > I got them in a basic philosophy class.
>
> I first got them in a first-year college Intro To Logic class.
I'm surprised--I thought they were standard in elementary school. I
should know by now that one person's or school system's standard is
another's nonexistent.
--
Jerry Friedman
Barbara Bailey
> Barbara Bailey wrote:
>> Jim Karatassos wrote:
>> > "Jonathan Morton" wrote:
>> >> Do maths students still get taught dear old Venn diagrams? They
>> >> were an incredibly useful tool in the field of basic logic.
>> > I got them in a basic philosophy class.
>> I first got them in a first-year college Intro To Logic class.
> I'm surprised--I thought they were standard in elementary school. I
> should know by now that one person's or school system's standard is
> another's nonexistent.
Going by the fact that Dr K. had alloted several days to them on the
syllabus, he clearly was expecting to have to teach us about them from
scratch. He was right -- I think that one or two people out of nearly 25
already knew about them. That was 1976.
Robert Bannister
I don't remember meeting them in maths at school in England. I learnt
about them when I was teaching maths in Australia - despite my degree in
German, the West Australian Education Dept. is firmly of the belief that
a teacher can teach anything and will do so when ordered.
--
Rob Bannister
Richard Bollard
I just replied to an email from a year 4 student who was having an
argument with his father about the correct answer to a problem in
yesterdays competition paper.
It was one of those "how many in the group" questions where there were
some collecting stamps, some collecting postcards, some collecting
both and some collecting neither. The kid just added all the numbers
together and couldn't agree with dad (who had the right answer). I
drew him a Venn diagram to show him how to avoid counting the "doing
both" group three times. I can only assume his father couldn't or
wouldn't.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.