I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.

[Jerry Friedman]

In a discussion at Language Log (on criticism of "behaviors" and
"variations"),

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=8406

it transpired that a number of Americans, including me, thought that
"shrubberies" in /Monty Python and the Holy Grail/ was a comic
invention. We were surprised to learn that "shrubbery" means an area
planted with shrubs; it's like a grove or a flowerbed. We thought it
was always a mass noun, like "greenery".

So, my fellow North Americans, did you that British gardeners routinely
design shrubberies? Would you say "a shrubbery" in Leftpondia?

Here's more of the passage:


Roger the Shrubber: Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians
can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land,
nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are
under considerable economic stress in this period in history.

King Arthur: Did you say shrubberies?

Roger the Shrubber: Yes, shrubberies are my trade. I am a shrubber. My
name is Roger the Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.

http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0091173/

--
Jerry Friedman doesn't want to hear that people say "greeneries".

[LFS]

Fine large shrubberies may be found in the grounds of the country houses
of Rightpondia. Historically, they were the venue for all sorts of
goings on.

The shrubber is of course a Python invention.

--
Laura (emulate St George for email)

[Tony Cooper]

"Shrubberies" is an invention as far as I'm concerned. One bush is a
shrub. Many bushes are shrubbery.

The only use of "Shrubberies" would be the family of Bush.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:56:16 -0700, Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>In a discussion at Language Log (on criticism of "behaviors" and
>"variations"),
>
>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=8406
>
>it transpired that a number of Americans, including me, thought that
>"shrubberies" in /Monty Python and the Holy Grail/ was a comic
>invention. We were surprised to learn that "shrubbery" means an area
>planted with shrubs; it's like a grove or a flowerbed. We thought it
>was always a mass noun, like "greenery".

I never knew that you never knew that.

Like coopt.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:56:16 -0700, Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>In a discussion at Language Log (on criticism of "behaviors" and
>"variations"),
>
>http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=8406
>
>it transpired that a number of Americans, including me, thought that
>"shrubberies" in /Monty Python and the Holy Grail/ was a comic
>invention. We were surprised to learn that "shrubbery" means an area
>planted with shrubs; it's like a grove or a flowerbed. We thought it
>was always a mass noun, like "greenery".
>

A place where pigs are grown is a "piggery".
An area where rocks are "planted" is a "rockery".

Like "shrubbery" they can be plural : piggeries, rockeries, shrubberies.

>So, my fellow North Americans, did you that British gardeners routinely
>design shrubberies? Would you say "a shrubbery" in Leftpondia?
>
>Here's more of the passage:
>
>
>Roger the Shrubber: Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians
>can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land,
>nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are
>under considerable economic stress in this period in history.
>
>King Arthur: Did you say shrubberies?
>
>Roger the Shrubber: Yes, shrubberies are my trade. I am a shrubber. My
>name is Roger the Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.
>
>http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0091173/

--

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[John Dean]

"Tony Cooper" <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:q4h4895k1k5d9002n...@4ax.com...

Plenty of examples in OED:

1882 Garden 14 Jan. 26/1 The '*choke-muddle' {shrubberies} that one sees in
all parts of the country.

1947 Auden Age of Anxiety (1948) v. 111 Barns and {shrubberies} For
game-playing gangs.

1855 Kingsley Westw. Ho xxi. (1889) 391 {Shrubberies} of heaths and
rhododendrons, and woolly incense-trees.

1876 T. Hardy Ethelberta (1890) 180 The pleasant lake, the purl of the weir,
the rudimentary lawns, {shrubberies}, and avenue, had changed their
character quite.


--
John Dean

[Traddict]

"LFS" <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de groupe
de discussion : beeuil...@mid.individual.net...

So much so that there was a Beatles' song that went "Shrubbery Fields
Forever."

[Jerry Friedman]

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:29:42 AM UTC-7, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:56:16 -0700, Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In a discussion at Language Log (on criticism of "behaviors" and
> >"variations"),
>
> >http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=8406
>
> >it transpired that a number of Americans, including me, thought that
> >"shrubberies" in /Monty Python and the Holy Grail/ was a comic
> >invention. We were surprised to learn that "shrubbery" means an area
> >planted with shrubs; it's like a grove or a flowerbed. We thought it
> >was always a mass noun, like "greenery".
>
> I never knew that you never knew that.
>
> Like coopt.

That was the reaction of one of the Brits at Language Log (except that
he didn't mention "co-opt").

Somehow I feel that we're going to have less discussion of garden design
than we had of committees.

--
Jerry Friedman

[LFS]

<waves> Mr Dean! How the devil are you, old chap?

[Iain Archer]

LFS wrote on Tue, 12 Nov 2013 at 15:08:04 GMT

>Fine large shrubberies may be found in the grounds of the country
>houses of Rightpondia. Historically, they were the venue for all sorts
>of goings on.

Do the AmE cousins understand "goings on"?
--
Iain Archer

[John Varela]

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:56:16 UTC, Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In a discussion at Language Log (on criticism of "behaviors" and
> "variations"),
>
> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=8406
>
> it transpired that a number of Americans, including me, thought that
> "shrubberies" in /Monty Python and the Holy Grail/ was a comic
> invention. We were surprised to learn that "shrubbery" means an area
> planted with shrubs; it's like a grove or a flowerbed. We thought it
> was always a mass noun, like "greenery".
>
> So, my fellow North Americans, did you that British gardeners routinely
> design shrubberies? Would you say "a shrubbery" in Leftpondia?

Unless put in the plural, that's a distinction without a difference.
If we passed a mass of azaleas in bloom, and I exclaimed, "Look at
that shrubbery!" would you know whether I meant the plants or the
area planted with them? Would it matter? No.

If someone were to use the plural "shrubberies" I would take him to
be a new speaker of English, unless he had a British accent, in
which case I would make allowances.

Are there shrubberies in S. Africa, Australia, or New Zealand?

--
John Varela

[Jerry Friedman]

Yes, though some of us might hyphenate it.

--
Jerry Friedman
Well, a few of us.

[R H Draney]

John Varela filted:

>
>If we passed a mass of azaleas in bloom, and I exclaimed, "Look at
>that shrubbery!" would you know whether I meant the plants or the
>area planted with them? Would it matter? No.

I'd be too busy looking at the foliages....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Katy Jennison]

On 12/11/2013 17:25, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> Somehow I feel that we're going to have less discussion of garden design
> than we had of committees.
>

Oh, if you want to discuss garden design, we have any amount of
fascinating features in addition to shrubberies to offer you.

--
Katy Jennison

[Peter T. Daniels]

Is it anything more specific than 'vaguely disreputable activities'?

[Mike L]

On 12 Nov 2013 18:49:04 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net>
wrote:

[...]

>
>If someone were to use the plural "shrubberies" I would take him to
>be a new speaker of English, unless he had a British accent, in
>which case I would make allowances.
>
>Are there shrubberies in S. Africa, Australia, or New Zealand?

Yes, but I'm getting the impression that they aren't such a common
feature any more. I didn't open this link, but the text does seem to
imply old-fashionedness:

<DEATH OF THE MIXED SHRUBBERY - LANDSCAPE outlook
landscapeoutlook.com.au/.../wp.../death_of_the_mixed_shrubbery.pdf?
an amazing collection of interesting shrubs: blue flowering.
Eranthemum and Ceratostigma .... stock grown and trucked in from all
over Australia. In these old gardens ... That's not just the physical
site, it's also the heritage values of the nearby >

--
Mike.

[Cheryl]

I get the impression that to have enough space for a shrubbery, your
property has to be large enough to be considered an estate.

You probably need to be able to hire a gardener, too, and not just
someone to come around and mow the lawn every once in a while.

Not everyone can manage to have a shrubbery.

--
Cheryl

[Robin Bignall]

Including Mrs Trellis of north Wales.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England (BrE)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

"Goings on" are sexual activities unless the context suggests otherwise.
Such sexual activities might be underhand[1].

[1] Other sexual positions are available.

[John Dean]

"LFS" <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
news:befa23...@mid.individual.net...

> On 12/11/2013 16:46, John Dean wrote:
>>
>> "Tony Cooper" <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:q4h4895k1k5d9002n...@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>

>>>> Fine large shrubberies may be found in the grounds of the country
>>>> houses
>>>> of Rightpondia. Historically, they were the venue for all sorts of
>>>> goings on.
>>>>
>>>> The shrubber is of course a Python invention.
>>>
>>> "Shrubberies" is an invention as far as I'm concerned. One bush is a
>>> shrub. Many bushes are shrubbery.
>>>
>>> The only use of "Shrubberies" would be the family of Bush.
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> Plenty of examples in OED:
>>
>> 1882 Garden 14 Jan. 26/1 The '*choke-muddle' {shrubberies} that one sees
>> in all parts of the country.
>>
>> 1947 Auden Age of Anxiety (1948) v. 111 Barns and {shrubberies} For
>> game-playing gangs.
>>
>> 1855 Kingsley Westw. Ho xxi. (1889) 391 {Shrubberies} of heaths and
>> rhododendrons, and woolly incense-trees.
>>
>> 1876 T. Hardy Ethelberta (1890) 180 The pleasant lake, the purl of the
>> weir, the rudimentary lawns, {shrubberies}, and avenue, had changed
>> their character quite.
>>
>>
>
> <waves> Mr Dean! How the devil are you, old chap?
>

<<waves back>>

Perfesser!! Absolutely spiffing old gel. Yourself?

--
John Dean

[Robert Bannister]

This seems to be a Rule 34 position on the matter.
--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia

[Robert Bannister]

The important thing is to keep sheep. Goats will eat your shrubberies,
but sheep will just keep the grass the right length.

Note to Jenn: sheep, for some strange reason, are always on topic.

[Robert Bannister]

Good heavens. I can't even afford an orangery.

[R H Draney]

Peter T. Daniels filted:

Not even as specific as all that..."goings on" means nothing more or less than
is covered by the Buffyism "the sitch"....r

[Jenn]

... because they show up in recipes?

--
Jenn

[Jerry Friedman]

On 11/12/13 11:49 AM, John Varela wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:56:16 UTC, Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> In a discussion at Language Log (on criticism of "behaviors" and
>> "variations"),
>>
>> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=8406
>>
>> it transpired that a number of Americans, including me, thought that
>> "shrubberies" in /Monty Python and the Holy Grail/ was a comic
>> invention. We were surprised to learn that "shrubbery" means an area
>> planted with shrubs; it's like a grove or a flowerbed. We thought it
>> was always a mass noun, like "greenery".
>>
>> So, my fellow North Americans, did you that British gardeners routinely
>> design shrubberies? Would you say "a shrubbery" in Leftpondia?
>
> Unless put in the plural, that's a distinction without a difference.
> If we passed a mass of azaleas in bloom, and I exclaimed, "Look at
> that shrubbery!" would you know whether I meant the plants or the
> area planted with them? Would it matter? No.

...

It doesn't matter with "that", but grammatically it probably does with
"a". Would you say, "What a beautiful shrubbery!"?

But I think that must be why we didn't know of the count-noun sense--it
doesn't make a difference for "goings-on in the shrubbery".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

One of the most elegant old apartment buildings on the most fashionable
block of Lake Shore Drive in Chicago has a turreted corner, almost entirely
glazed, and the plan of the floor-through apartments labels that room the
orangerie.

[Steve Hayes]

On 12 Nov 2013 18:49:04 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net> wrote:

Yes to the first.

Though my mental picture always comes from crime novels, in which the
protagonist is standing outside the house, in the shrubbery, in the dark,
looking through a lighted window.

A shrubbery is like a flowerbed, except that the plants in it are between
waist and shoulder height, with some exceptions (hollyhocks aren't shrubs).
Hydrangeas are borderline.

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 11:39:11 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com>
wrote:

Have you seen what they call "conservatories" in the UK these days?

It seems to be the fashionable name for a bay window.

[LFS]

<chuckle>

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 08:04:17 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net>
wrote:

Our very own Robin Bignall (docrobin) has an orangery. Here it is before
the glass was fitted:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/Design/orangeryskeleton.htm

[Peter Moylan]

Just the other day my wife and I were talking of putting a shrubbery
along our front property line, to replace the fence that isn't there. Of
course we can't fit a great many shrubs in the space available, but it
will still be worth doing if it turns out that we can afford to pay
someone to dig a bit of lawn out and put in the retaining wall.
(Probably necessary because of the slope of the yard.) In this area,
that sort of thing is a popular alternative to a hedge.

I used to own a gardening book, vintage circa 1900, that was full of
good advice about suitable gardens for Australian conditions. The catch
was that the author didn't seem to think it was worth putting in a
garden unless you were going to devote a hundred yards or so to each
type of plant, with the various beds suitably separated by lawns and
waterfalls and so on.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Stan Brown]

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:56:16 -0700, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> So, my fellow North Americans, did you that British gardeners routinely
> design shrubberies? Would you say "a shrubbery" in Leftpondia?
>

"Shrubbery" is a mass noun, as far as I'm concerned. I always
thought that making it countable was just a bit of Monty Python
silliness.

--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[John Briggs]

On 13/11/2013 04:58, Peter T. Daniels wrote:> On Tuesday, November 12,

It sounds like a suitable use for that room - quite possibly the only one.
--
John Briggs

[Irwell]

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 11:37:21 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:

> On 13/11/2013 1:25 am, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:29:42 AM UTC-7, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:56:16 -0700, Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In a discussion at Language Log (on criticism of "behaviors" and
>>>> "variations"),
>>>
>>>> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=8406
>>>
>>>> it transpired that a number of Americans, including me, thought that
>>>> "shrubberies" in /Monty Python and the Holy Grail/ was a comic
>>>> invention. We were surprised to learn that "shrubbery" means an area
>>>> planted with shrubs; it's like a grove or a flowerbed. We thought it
>>>> was always a mass noun, like "greenery".
>>>
>>> I never knew that you never knew that.
>>>
>>> Like coopt.
>>
>> That was the reaction of one of the Brits at Language Log (except that
>> he didn't mention "co-opt").
>>
>> Somehow I feel that we're going to have less discussion of garden design
>> than we had of committees.
>>
> The important thing is to keep sheep. Goats will eat your shrubberies,
> but sheep will just keep the grass the right length.

So that's where they safely graze, then?

[Irwell]

Seems like the author was a fan of Capability Brown, gazing out from
Blenheim Palace, "Yes, Your Grace we can plant a few hundred oak and beech
there, quite a capable addition".

[Dr Nick]

We've got about a 5 foot thick layer of bushes, small trees etc at the
bottom of the garden, between the lawn and the fence. We call it the
shrubbery - I have no idea if we chose the name ourselves or the previous
owner or estate agent called it that to us.

Which reminds me, it's due another vicious cut back. It's as bad as the
public sector that thing: it keeps growing, and however vigorously you
prune it, it's back again in a few years.

[Mike L]

Mine's quite like that, though with a lean-to roof and one side
without windows. It leaks, which somehow I bet Robin's doesn't. It
never occurred to me to call it an orangery, though I did have a
productive lemon tree in there till I killed it somehow.

--
Mike.

[Mike L]

Does she still inundate them with a letter every now and then? I
haven't listened for ages.

--
Mike.

[Mike L]

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 11:37:21 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>On 13/11/2013 1:25 am, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:29:42 AM UTC-7, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:56:16 -0700, Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In a discussion at Language Log (on criticism of "behaviors" and
>>>> "variations"),
>>>
>>>> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=8406
>>>
>>>> it transpired that a number of Americans, including me, thought that
>>>> "shrubberies" in /Monty Python and the Holy Grail/ was a comic
>>>> invention. We were surprised to learn that "shrubbery" means an area
>>>> planted with shrubs; it's like a grove or a flowerbed. We thought it
>>>> was always a mass noun, like "greenery".
>>>
>>> I never knew that you never knew that.
>>>
>>> Like coopt.
>>
>> That was the reaction of one of the Brits at Language Log (except that
>> he didn't mention "co-opt").
>>
>> Somehow I feel that we're going to have less discussion of garden design
>> than we had of committees.
>>
>The important thing is to keep sheep. Goats will eat your shrubberies,
>but sheep will just keep the grass the right length.

They poach the ground, though. And shit without much consideration.

>
>Note to Jenn: sheep, for some strange reason, are always on topic.

--

Mike.

[LFS]

We have what we call a shrubbery, too. We used to have two but we did
away with one and made the area into a small patio. Our estate is on the
small side although we do hire the occasional gardener. Today Alberto
dug up the patch of weeds and moss and laid turf so we may have a lawn
eventually.

If we had a lake, a monument and a ha ha it would be just like Blenheim
Palace, down the road.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 10:59:34 PM UTC-7, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On 12 Nov 2013 18:49:04 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net> wrote:

...

> >Are there shrubberies in S. Africa, Australia, or New Zealand?
>
> Yes to the first.
>

> A shrubbery is like a flowerbed, except that the plants in it are between
> waist and shoulder height, with some exceptions (hollyhocks aren't shrubs).

To me a shrub can be less than waist-height (cotoneaster) or much more
than shoulder-height (rhododendrons, for instance). The distinction isn't
the height but the way they grow. Something like this must be true for
you too, considering that hollyhocks are an exception. Probably eight-
foot-tall sunflowers are too.

> Hydrangeas are borderline.

Almost trees?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Robin Bignall]

Apparently, according to the builder, conservatories have glass that
goes down to the floor; orangeries have three feet of brick at the
bottom.
We replaced our starter shrubbery set with Astroturf. The dog, you
know, too much mud in a shrubbery during the autumn rains after a hot
dry summer.
This is the surround sound end of the orangery's inside. The other end
has a round table with chairs and mirrored walls.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/surroundsound.html


(Incidentally, I have so far not been able to discover two things
suggested here.
1. Install Dropbox and use it to put photos out for public consumption.
I've tried to install it but nothing happens: nothing at all.
2. Put the date into photos taken by my Canon EOS 550D (I think) SLR.
My little Powershot does it automatically.)

[Katy Jennison]

You could just pop outside with a basin of water and a small dragon, and
giggle.

--
Katy Jennison

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I've been inside Blenheim Palace at an evening function run by IBM. They
had musicians. There was some sort of band in the "entrance hall" (not
its official name). That was pleasant and welcoming. However, to get
inside the building we had to walk up the steps at the ceremonial
entrance. That might seem simple. It was physically - but approaching
the steps and realising that the trumpeters positioned on them were just
waiting for the first foot to land on a step to cue them into blowing a
fanfare was definitely nervous-making. We didn't all arrive at once, but
in small informal groups with gaps of several minutes between. So
approaching the steps being watched by the trumpeters was an unsettling
experience.

In the centre of this is the entrance I'm referring to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blenheim_Palace_panorama.jpg

The band performed later in front of the building with us all (a hundred
or so) standing on and to both sides of the steps. The band was a
British Army band. It was from an Irish regiment, perhaps the Irish
Guards. It was amusing that the man in charge gave orders in a broad
Lancashire accent.

[Robert Bannister]

My own opinion only and unreliable since I have never seen Buffy, but I
understand "sitch" to mean "situation", whereas "goings on" are more an
activity, particularly a slightly covert, slightly frowned-upon activity.

[Robert Bannister]

Who can say? I've only been here since the early 90's (not my early
nineties, I hasten to add), so one would need to ask an - I hesitate to
use the word "older" - established member.

[Robert Bannister]

Sicher.

[Robert Bannister]

I'm sure with training they could be brought round to gently simmering
it instead. Reminds me of a family holiday we had on a sheep station in
New South Wales. My mother completely flummoxed the cocky* by telling him:
"You know, you ought to boil this land."
"???"
"It's too hard. It needs softening."

This is years before she started going ga-ga, so it caught us all by
surprise.


* Cocky: Australia-New Zealand slang for a farmer.

[Robert Bannister]

Wow! Some people really have style.

[Robert Bannister]

I saw one that was little more than an oversize cucumber frame. No,
that's not fair. A glazed porch in the English sense of "porch" would be
closer. Imagine something like this with a thin, metal frame and the
rest glass:
http://www.handmadereproductions.co.uk/datapics/porch%20f.l.jpg

or
http://tinyurl.com/kfensyv

[Robert Bannister]

Now that's what I'd call a conservatory, but I suppose the addition of
one small orange tree or similar in a pot and Bob's your uncle.

[Robert Bannister]

On 14/11/2013 3:29 am, Dr Nick wrote:

> Which reminds me, it's due another vicious cut back. It's as bad as the
> public sector that thing: it keeps growing, and however vigorously you
> prune it, it's back again in a few years.

You're lucky you don't have bougainvillea. We've just been having words
with one of our strata title neighbours whose b--g---villea throws 4
metre shoots heavily armed with 1-2cm thorns across the main, shared
driveway. They (the plants, not the neighbours) have to be chopped back
almost to the ground every year to keep them under control otherwise
it's the Day of Triffids all over again.

[David D S]

Jerry Friedman wrote:

> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 11:24:58 AM UTC-7, Iain

> Archer wrote:
> > LFS wrote on Tue, 12 Nov 2013 at 15:08:04 GMT
> > > Fine large shrubberies may be found in the grounds of
> > > the country houses of Rightpondia. Historically, they
> > > were the venue for all sorts of goings on.
> >
> > Do the AmE cousins understand "goings on"?
>

> Yes, though some of us might hyphenate it.

Well I'll go to the foot of our stairs!

--
David D S: UK and PR China. (Native BrEng speaker)
Use Reply-To header for email. This email address will be
valid for at least 2 weeks from 2013/11/14 11:58:42

[David D S]

Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 12:45:50 -0800 (PST), "Peter T.
> Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:24:58 PM UTC-5, Iain

> > Archer wrote:
> >> LFS wrote on Tue, 12 Nov 2013 at 15:08:04 GMT
> >
> >> >Fine large shrubberies may be found in the grounds of
> the country >> >houses of Rightpondia. Historically, they
> were the venue for all sorts >> >of goings on.
> >>
> >> Do the AmE cousins understand "goings on"?
> >

> > Is it anything more specific than 'vaguely disreputable
> > activities'?
>

> "Goings on" are sexual activities unless the context
> suggests otherwise. Such sexual activities might be
> underhand[1].
>
> [1] Other sexual positions are available.

Otherwise known by some as "Ugandan Discussions" or
"Discussing Uganda"

--
David D S: UK and PR China. (Native BrEng speaker)
Use Reply-To header for email. This email address will be

valid for at least 2 weeks from 2013/11/14 11:59:11

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 5:23:48 PM UTC-5, LFS wrote:

> If we had a lake, a monument and a ha ha it would be just like Blenheim
> Palace, down the road.

On the few occasions I've encountered "ha-ha," it's been hyphenated. (Is
it actually said? do people actually have them?)

[R H Draney]

Mike L filted:

Haven't listened to this week's episode, the first in series sixty (!), but last
series she was still supplying something every week....

(The Lovely Samantha remains Lovely, as is only proper)....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[R H Draney]

Robert Bannister filted:

I suppose an aspidistra in a flowerpot on the what-not near the 'atstand in the
'all is insufficient to the purpose....r

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 11:37:49 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com>
wrote:

Haven't you heard of an "ongoing situation"?


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 11:53:15 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com>

Me too, though it's a rather small one.

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 11:52:04 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com>

I'd call that a portico, albeit a small one

[LFS]

<chortle>

[Iain Archer]

R H Draney wrote on Wed, 13 Nov 2013 at 21:42:11 GMT

I expect to see "Always Lovely" inscribed above her fine and private
place.
--
Iain Archer

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

A ha-ha is used as an invisible barrier to separate the gardens (BrE:
lawns, flower-beds, etc.) surrounding a house from pasture and other
farmland. This situation does not often occur in suburban residential
areas.

[fabzorba]

On Thursday, 14 November 2013 21:37:41 UTC+11, PeterWD wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 21:02:58 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote: >On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 5:23:48 PM UTC-5, LFS wrote: > >> If we had a lake, a monument and a ha ha it would be just like Blenheim >> Palace, down the road. > >On the few occasions I've encountered "ha-ha," it's been hyphenated. (Is >it actually said? do people actually have them?) A ha-ha is used as an invisible barrier to separate the gardens (BrE: lawns, flower-beds, etc.) surrounding a house from pasture and other farmland. This situation does not often occur in suburban residential areas. -- Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)

I remember seeing a book on the most ridiculous words in English language
(whose tittle and author escapes me for the moment) who speculated
that there could be no more stupid device than a fence built in a ditch.

But I now think that it would be an elegant way to build a tall fence
that could keep out tresspassers but which would be an aesthetic blight
on the environs.

Cf krinkle-krankle

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I think that the trespassers to be kept out by a ha-ha are normally
livestock: sheep, cattle and the like.

A fence in a ditch would not be so good for keeping out a human
trespasser. Because it is hidden the person would be able to break a way
through it without being seen.

[Iain Archer]

Peter T. Daniels wrote on Wed, 13 Nov 2013 at 21:02:58 GMT

Don't forget the second month of the 'pataphysical calendar,
Fr: Haha; Eng: Ha ha
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendrier_pataphysique
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Pataphysics

Or "Ha ha", the sole lexical token(?s) in the language of the
estimable Bosse-de-Nage.
http://lastbender.com/fiction/bosse-de-nage-mr-ha-ha/
--
Iain Archer

[Peter Moylan]

The first mention of sheep in AUE, years ago, was in connection with a
joke about New Zealand, "where men are men and sheep are nervous". Or
possibly about Australia, because some unkind people think that
Australians also indulge in such practices. Which they don't, except
perhaps for the sort of Australians who wear big boots, the sort that
are big enough to let you keep a sheep steady by putting its hind legs
inside your boots.

A couple of our Irish RRs, now sadly departed, seemed to be particularly
good at keeping the sheep jokes coming.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 03:05:26 -0800 (PST), fabzorba
<myles....@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, 14 November 2013 21:37:41 UTC+11, PeterWD wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 21:02:58 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote: >On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 5:23:48 PM UTC-5, LFS wrote: > >> If we had a lake, a monument and a ha ha it would be just like Blenheim >> Palace, down the road. > >On the few occasions I've encountered "ha-ha," it's been hyphenated. (Is >it actually said? do people actually have them?) A ha-ha is used as an invisible barrier to separate the gardens (BrE: lawns, flower-beds, etc.) surrounding a house from pasture and other farmland. This situation does not often occur in suburban residential areas. -- Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
>
>I remember seeing a book on the most ridiculous words in English language
>(whose tittle and author escapes me for the moment)

Let me jot that down for future use.

>who speculated
>that there could be no more stupid device than a fence built in a ditch.
>
>But I now think that it would be an elegant way to build a tall fence
>that could keep out tresspassers but which would be an aesthetic blight
>on the environs.
>
>Cf krinkle-krankle

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Katy Jennison]

For values of "people" which includes the (UK) National Trust, which
these days owns and operates many of our surviving stately homes, which
is mainly where one can encounter (and if one's trying, fall into) ha-has.

--
Katy Jennison

[Irwell]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 00:07:11 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

>>If we had a lake, a monument and a ha ha it would be just like Blenheim
>>Palace, down the road.
>

> I've been inside Blenheim Palace at an evening function run by IBM. They
> had musicians. There was some sort of band in the "entrance hall" (not
> its official name). That was pleasant and welcoming. However, to get
> inside the building we had to walk up the steps at the ceremonial
> entrance. That might seem simple. It was physically - but approaching
> the steps and realising that the trumpeters positioned on them were just
> waiting for the first foot to land on a step to cue them into blowing a
> fanfare was definitely nervous-making. We didn't all arrive at once, but
> in small informal groups with gaps of several minutes between. So
> approaching the steps being watched by the trumpeters was an unsettling
> experience.
>
> In the centre of this is the entrance I'm referring to:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blenheim_Palace_panorama.jpg
>
> The band performed later in front of the building with us all (a hundred
> or so) standing on and to both sides of the steps. The band was a
> British Army band. It was from an Irish regiment, perhaps the Irish
> Guards. It was amusing that the man in charge gave orders in a broad
> Lancashire accent.

It is over 65 years ago, but I can still remember hearing
Handel's Water Music at the Hampton Court Orangery on a summer
Sunday evening.

[Rich Ulrich]

Having seen it here and now, I expect this haha to reappear
in crossword puzzles within the next few months.

--
Rich Ulrich

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 15:08:54 +0000, Katy Jennison
<ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> wrote:

At least one Ha Ha is in what is now a public park: Bury Knowle Park,
Headington, Oxford.

The map on page 2 of this marks the line of the Ha Ha with black dots:
http://www.oxford.gov.uk/Library/Documents/Parks/Bury%20Knowle%20Park%20Leaflet%202012.pdf

The side of the ditch nearest the house is a vertical wall. The other
side slopes. It can just be seen from ground level in the image here:
http://www.headington.org.uk/buryknowle/history/

This is also in a public space:
http://www.thegreenwichphantom.co.uk/2009/05/funny-ha-ha/

This page has an image showing a ha ha keeping cattle out of a very neat
garden:
http://architessica.wordpress.com/2011/03/24/the-significance-of-the-ha-ha/

A Google Images search for "ha ha" found several more examples including
this.
http://onelondonone.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/ha-ha.html

A whole stack of images of "ha ha wall":
https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&q=ha+ha+wall&revid=873462298&biw=1389&bih=807&dpr=1

[Tony Cooper]

I don't get the impression that Laura's estate is large enough for the
placing of a respectable ha-ha, but there's no reason she can't add a
folly.

[John Briggs]

On 14/11/2013 03:52, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
> I saw one that was little more than an oversize cucumber frame. No,
> that's not fair. A glazed porch in the English sense of "porch" would be
> closer.

I think I missed that debate - what other sense of "porch" is there?
--
John Briggs

[John Briggs]

No, definitely not a portico. You, may be thinking of a porte coch�re -
without the coch�re, of course.
--
John Briggs

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I suppose a small estate could accomodate a mini-ha-ha.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:06:31 AM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 03:05:26 -0800 (PST), fabzorba
> <myles....@gmail.com> wrote:

...

> >I remember seeing a book on the most ridiculous words in English language
> >(whose tittle and author escapes me for the moment)
>
> Let me jot that down for future use.

...

Are you still purveying them?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Tony Cooper]

While some sayings that are Biblical in origin are familiar to me as
such, I was not aware that "jot and tittle" was one. I picked it up
as a sig line (Provider of Jots and Tittles) only because I liked the
sound of it.

When the origin was pointed out, I dropped that sig line because I
didn't want to seem to be of a religious persuasion.

Another sig line dropped is one I can't recall at the moment, but it
was a reference to sliding down a banister full of splinters. It was
based on a comment describing the pain of losing a big match in
Orlando by Irish footballer.

Now, I'm sticking to just a location sig.

[James Hogg]

<ha ha>

--
James

[Leslie Danks]

Tony Cooper wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 10:16:36 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:06:31 AM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 03:05:26 -0800 (PST), fabzorba
>>> <myles....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>...
>>
>>> >I remember seeing a book on the most ridiculous words in English
>>> >language (whose tittle and author escapes me for the moment)
>>>
>>> Let me jot that down for future use.
>>...
>>
>>Are you still purveying them?
>
> While some sayings that are Biblical in origin are familiar to me as
> such, I was not aware that "jot and tittle" was one. I picked it up
> as a sig line (Provider of Jots and Tittles) only because I liked the
> sound of it.
>
> When the origin was pointed out, I dropped that sig line because I
> didn't want to seem to be of a religious persuasion.
>
> Another sig line dropped is one I can't recall at the moment, but it
> was a reference to sliding down a banister full of splinters. It was
> based on a comment describing the pain of losing a big match in
> Orlando by Irish footballer.
>
> Now, I'm sticking to just a location sig.

Location, eh?

<nudge, nudge; wink, wink>

--
Les (BrE)

[LFS]

<giggle>

[John Briggs]

On 14/11/2013 05:02, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 5:23:48 PM UTC-5, LFS wrote:
>
>> If we had a lake, a monument and a ha ha it would be just like Blenheim
>> Palace, down the road.
>
> On the few occasions I've encountered "ha-ha," it's been hyphenated. (Is
> it actually said? do people actually have them?)

There is a riff on this theme at the beginning of Tom Stoppard's play
"Arcadia" (1993).
--
John Briggs

[John Briggs]

On 14/11/2013 19:01, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 10:16:36 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:06:31 AM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 03:05:26 -0800 (PST), fabzorba
>>> <myles....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>>> I remember seeing a book on the most ridiculous words in English language
>>>> (whose tittle and author escapes me for the moment)
>>>
>>> Let me jot that down for future use.
>> ...
>>
>> Are you still purveying them?
>
> While some sayings that are Biblical in origin are familiar to me as
> such, I was not aware that "jot and tittle" was one. I picked it up
> as a sig line (Provider of Jots and Tittles) only because I liked the
> sound of it.
>
> When the origin was pointed out, I dropped that sig line because I
> didn't want to seem to be of a religious persuasion.

Did you notice that I pointed out in another thread that "jot" is the
same word as "iota"? ("Jot and tittle" was coined by Tyndale for his
translation.)
--
John Briggs

[Jenn]

If it were the same word, it would be spelled with the same letters.

They are synonyms, not the same word.
--
Jenn

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Good luck with that.

FL: Doesn't the name Florida have some connection with Flora the Roman
goddess of springtime.

[John Briggs]

But "i" and "j" *are* the same letter, as is "y" - in fact, it should be
spelled (and pronounced) "yota".
--
John Briggs

[John Briggs]

More to do with flowers.
--
John Briggs

[Jenn]

In what language? LOL Certainly, not in English.

> as is "y" - in fact, it should
> be spelled (and pronounced) "yota".

... but it isn't.

--
Jenn

[John Varela]

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 18:24:58 UTC, Iain Archer <m...@privacy.net>
wrote:

> LFS wrote on Tue, 12 Nov 2013 at 15:08:04 GMT
> >Fine large shrubberies may be found in the grounds of the country
> >houses of Rightpondia. Historically, they were the venue for all sorts
> >of goings on.
>
> Do the AmE cousins understand "goings on"?

Wasn't there a episode of that sort in one of the Aubrey novels?

--
John Varela

[R H Draney]

John Briggs filted:

Yes, the four US states with Spanish participles for names: Colorado, Montana,
Nevada and Florida....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Irwell]

Old Offa built a big ha ha on the Weslh border.

[R H Draney]

Katy Jennison filted:

Without either the space or hyphen, it's the Japanese word for "mother"....r

[Tony Cooper]

According to a website I found: What does "Florida" mean? Florida was
named Pascua Florida by explorer Ponce de Leon on Easter in 1513.
Translation: means "Flowery Easter" or "Flowering Easter" (after
Spain's "Feast of the Flowers" Easter celebration).

[an...@alum.wpi.edi]

When a'servin o' the Raygun, I designed an anti-cow ditch to go with
the anti-tank ditch. Back-to-back ha-has, basically. Choluteca area,
Honduras. Don't remember how much was completed, or whether there's
anything left.

ANMcC

[Peter T. Daniels]

Would there be room for it among the 10,000 lakes?

[Robin Bignall]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 11:53:15 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>On 13/11/2013 6:19 pm, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 08:04:17 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net>

>> Our very own Robin Bignall (docrobin) has an orangery. Here it is before
>> the glass was fitted:
>> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/docrobin/Design/orangeryskeleton.htm
>>
>
>Now that's what I'd call a conservatory, but I suppose the addition of
>one small orange tree or similar in a pot and Bob's your uncle.

I've just put another picture of the finished orangery on that page.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England (BrE)

[Peter T. Daniels]

[oops, I pasted this response as a reply to the wrong message]

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 3:50:30 PM UTC-5, Jenn wrote:
> John Briggs wrote:
> > On 14/11/2013 20:06, Jenn wrote:
> >> John Briggs wrote:
> >>> On 14/11/2013 19:01, Tony Cooper wrote:

> >>>> While some sayings that are Biblical in origin are familiar to me
> >>>> as such, I was not aware that "jot and tittle" was one. I picked
> >>>> it up as a sig line (Provider of Jots and Tittles) only because I
> >>>> liked the sound of it.
> >>>> When the origin was pointed out, I dropped that sig line because I
> >>>> didn't want to seem to be of a religious persuasion.
> >>> Did you notice that I pointed out in another thread that "jot" is
> >>> the same word as "iota"? ("Jot and tittle" was coined by Tyndale
> >>> for his translation.)

"Jot" supposedly refers to the i-dot and "tittle" to the t-cross.

> >> If it were the same word, it would be spelled with the same letters.
> >> They are synonyms, not the same word.
> > But "i" and "j" *are* the same letter,
>
> In what language? LOL Certainly, not in English.

That depends on what the meaning of "same" is, but even after they'd
been sorted into specifically vowel and consonant uses respectively,
which began in France in the late 16th century but didn't catch on
in England until almost a century later, they were alphabetized
together until 1801. (It used to be thought that Noah Webster's first
dictionary, in 1808, was the first to separate them, but it has now
been noticed that an English one, by William Perry, did so in 1801.)

Much can be gleaned from the original orthography of Mt 5:18:

For verily I say vnto you, *Till heauen and earth passe, one iote
or one title, shall in no wise passe from the law, till all be
fulfilled.

The asterisk cross-refers to Lk 16:17:

*And it is easier for heauen and earth to passe,than one title
of the law to faile.

The asterisk cross-refers to Mt 5:18.

Since the pass-fail system is here seen to be Biblical, perhaps
it should not be permitted in government schools.

[Jenn]

ahh That's like a sunroom. Is it on the south side of the building?

--
Jenn