Don't know if I'm arthur or martha

[Lewis]

I heard someone on an episode of the Great British Bake-off (from a few
years ago) say, something very much like "I am so confused I don't know
if I'm Arthur or Martha."

That's a new one on me, is it common? Is it simply sort of alliterative
or does it refer to specific people or characters?

Google says it's Australian, but this person was not Australian AFAIK.

(If anyone is curious this was the series with the 17yo student named
Martha, but I don't remember which woman on the show said it. Nancy,
perhaps?)

--
The Force can have a strong influence on a weak mind.

[Ross]

Not new. OED has citations from 1964. Extended version: "Arthur or
Martha or General MacArthur".

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Lewis wrote:
>
> "I am so confused I don't know if I'm Arthur or Martha."
>

> Is it simply sort of alliterative

^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wrong adjective.

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 04:40:55 +0000, Lewis wrote:

> I heard someone on an episode of the Great British Bake-off (from a few
> years ago) say, something very much like "I am so confused I don't know
> if I'm Arthur or Martha."
>
> That's a new one on me, is it common? Is it simply sort of alliterative
> or does it refer to specific people or characters?
>

Quite familiar to me. Similar to not knowing one's arse from one's elbow.





--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com

[Peter Young]

As I'm currently listening to music on BBC Radio 3, that reminds me
what the late Steve Race said. Some people don't know the difference
between the composers of "Rule Britannia" and of "Land of Hope and
Glory". That's the origin of the saying "He doesn't know his Arne from
his Elgar".

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[Lewis]

Ohm the meaning was clear, but as I said, I don't know where it came
from and then, oddly, searches marked it as Australian (or sometimes
Australian/New Zealand).

--
Two, Four, Six, Eight! Time to Transubstantiate!

[bebe...@aol.com]

Le lundi 18 septembre 2017 07:12:36 UTC+2, Reinhold {Rey} Aman a écrit :
> Lewis wrote:
> >
> > "I am so confused I don't know if I'm Arthur or Martha."
> >
> > Is it simply sort of alliterative
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Wrong adjective.

Not really, considering that the sentence sounds exactly like
"I mArthur or Martha", which would be a true alliteration
(unlike, for instance, "He's Arthur or Martha).

Besides, the only other possible adjective seems to be
"assonant", but it would only be relevant to non-rhotic
English.

[Ross]

Well, since this has hung around long enough I've had a chance to look
around, and Wilkes (Dictionary of Australian Colloquialisms, 4th ed.) has
one that pre-dates OED's earliest by a few years:

1957 D'Arcy Niland, Call Me When the Cross Turns Over, 52-3 [Description
of the 'Barcoo spews', too long to transcribe]

And Orsman (Dict of NZ Eng), though he doesn't have any printed
occurrences before 1968, quotes Noel Hilliard as saying that "the
variant 'I didn't know if I was Arthur or Martha or General MacArthur'
was current in the 1950s after MacArthur's removal from his Korean war
command by President Truman in April 1951".

So now I'm thinking it really is of Aus/NZ origin. And looking back at
OED's citations, they actually say "orig. NZ". That may be on the
strength of Orsman/Hilliard, but I see that their first citations are
by:
R.Maslyn Williams (Australian) "The Stone Age Island" (1964)
William (Bill) Taylor (NZ) "Plekhov Place" (1971)

First evidence of a spread to the wider world is the 1982 cite from a couple
of Southern African authors.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

bebe...@aol.com a écrit :

>
> Reinhold {Rey} Aman a écrit :
>> Lewis wrote:
>>>
>>> "I am so confused I don't know if I'm Arthur or Martha."
>>>
>>> Is it simply sort of alliterative
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Wrong adjective.
>>
> Not really, considering that the sentence sounds exactly like
> "I mArthur or Martha", which would be a true alliteration
> (unlike, for instance, "He's Arthur or Martha).
>
> Besides, the only other possible adjective seems to be
> "assonant", but it would only be relevant to non-rhotic
> English.
>

Ah, Bebercito, mon ami, I see you've picked up a bad habit from
anal (lit. & fig.) PeteY Daniels.

"Arthur or Martha" is NOT alliterative. But:
^ ^
"Looney Lewis" is alliterative.
^ ^
"Pugnacious PeteY" is alliterative.
^ ^
"Dastardly Daniels" is alliterative.
^ ^
"Brilliant Bebercito" is alliterative.
^ ^

[Jerry Friedman]

On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 6:16:20 PM UTC-6, bebe...@aol.com wrote:
> Le lundi 18 septembre 2017 07:12:36 UTC+2, Reinhold {Rey} Aman a écrit :
> > Lewis wrote:
> > >
> > > "I am so confused I don't know if I'm Arthur or Martha."
> > >
> > > Is it simply sort of alliterative
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Wrong adjective.
>
> Not really, considering that the sentence sounds exactly like
> "I mArthur or Martha", which would be a true alliteration
> (unlike, for instance, "He's Arthur or Martha).

It would be, but the actual words don't alliterate.

> Besides, the only other possible adjective seems to be
> "assonant", but it would only be relevant to non-rhotic
> English.

The pair has both assonance (repeated vowel) and consonance (no
points for guessing what that is). For non-rhotic speakers, the
two words rhyme. For the rest of us, there's probably a term
somewhere for words that rhyme except for a consonant at the end.

--
Jerry Friedman

[David Kleinecke]

I feel sure the best explanation was given by somebody upthread.
The entire phrase is "I don't know whether I'm Arthur or Martha."
"-m Arthur" and "Martha" must be very close to identical to a
non-rhotic speaker.

I suspect it's a tag line from a vaudeville (British music hall?)
skit.

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 18:03:45 -0700, Ross wrote:

> First evidence of a spread to the wider world is the 1982 cite from a
> couple of Southern African authors.

I don't know when I first heard it, but I'm sure it's longer ago than
that.

I've had the impression that it dated from when Martha was a much
commoner name than it is today.