Expire

[Charles Leviton]

Saw this sentence on the NBC sports page
"Nineteen-year-old phenom Athing Mu captured 800m gold Tuesday night in Tokyo, breaking the U.S. record and triumphantly expiring what had been the longest active American title drought in Olympic women’s track events."

Can you "expire" something, i.e. use it as a transitive verb? I thought things just expired like your TV licence or that it is used as a euphemism for dying.

[occam]

While you are at it, why not ask what a "passive American title drought"
feels like.

This all sounds like NBC sport-speak.

[Charles Leviton]

Good point. <banging head on wall/>

[micky]

In alt.usage.english, on Tue, 3 Aug 2021 07:49:41 -0700 (PDT), Charles

Leviton <charles...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Saw this sentence on the NBC sports page
>"Nineteen-year-old phenom Athing Mu captured 800m gold Tuesday night in Tokyo, breaking the U.S. record and triumphantly expiring what had been the longest active American title drought in Olympic women’s track events."

"End" would have been better.

>
>Can you "expire" something, i.e. use it as a transitive verb? I thought things just expired like your TV licence or that it is used as a euphemism for dying.

I think it's also half of respiration. ??


--
Please say where you live, or what
area's English you are asking about.
So your question or answer makes sense.
. .
I have lived all my life in the USA,
Western Pa. Indianapolis, Chicago,
Brooklyn, Baltimore.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, August 3, 2021 at 11:03:59 AM UTC-4, occam wrote:

An "inactive" Olympic title might be something like the Tug-of-War
medalist. It was an Olympic sport from 1900 to 1920.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:03:50 +0300, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>On 03/08/2021 17:49, Charles Leviton wrote:
>> Saw this sentence on the NBC sports page
>> "Nineteen-year-old phenom Athing Mu captured 800m gold Tuesday night in Tokyo, breaking the U.S. record and triumphantly expiring what had been the longest active American title drought in Olympic women’s track events."
>>
>> Can you "expire" something, i.e. use it as a transitive verb? I thought things just expired like your TV licence or that it is used as a euphemism for dying.
>>

"expire" used to be used as a transitive verb.
OED:

†7.
a. transitive. To cause to expire or cease; to bring to an end,
conclude; to put an end to. Obsolete.
....
1597 W. Shakespeare Romeo & Juliet i. iv. 109 Some
consequence..Which..expiers the terme Of a dispised life.
....

The most recent quotation is from 1612 so I think we can say that
transitive "expire" has expired.

>
>While you are at it, why not ask what a "passive American title drought"
>feels like.
>

To me, "active" in "active American title drought" means that American
athletes have competed in the Olympic track events, i.e been active,
during the drought period.

A "passive American title drought" would mean that American athletes had
not competed during the drought period, in which case it would be
strange to refer to a "title drought".

I suppose I could, accurately, say that I have suffered a "passive
Olympic title drought". As I am not athletic and have never competed in
the Olympics that is hardly surprising.

>This all sounds like NBC sport-speak.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Mark Brader]

Charles Leviton:

>>> Saw this sentence on the NBC sports page
>>> "Nineteen-year-old phenom Athing Mu captured 800m gold Tuesday night
>>> in Tokyo, breaking the U.S. record and triumphantly expiring what had
>>> been the longest active American title drought in Olympic women's
>>> track events."

>>> Can you "expire" something, i.e. use it as a transitive verb?

I see no reason why not.

Peter Duncanson:

> To me, "active" in "active American title drought" means that American
> athletes have competed in the Olympic track events, i.e been active,
> during the drought period.

No, just it means "current" or "ongoing", as opposed to a case like the
Chicago Cubs between 1908 and 2016.
--
Mark Brader "We can get ideas even from a clever man." ...
Toronto "Yes, I think you can. Even ideas you should
m...@vex.net have had yourselves." -- John Dickson Carr

[Lewis]

You are confused about what active means in that statement? Really?

I'm not going to defend expire, but "The longest active American title
drought" is perfectly understandable.

--
The city is flying, we're fighting an army of robots and I've got a
bow and arrow. None of this makes sense.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:17:41 -0500
m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

> Charles Leviton:
> >>> Saw this sentence on the NBC sports page
> >>> "Nineteen-year-old phenom Athing Mu captured 800m gold Tuesday night

'phenom' is another 'word' that irks me, yet no-one else has commented on it.

> >>> in Tokyo, breaking the U.S. record and triumphantly expiring what had
> >>> been the longest active American title drought in Olympic women's
> >>> track events."
>
> >>> Can you "expire" something, i.e. use it as a transitive verb?
>
> I see no reason why not.
>
> Peter Duncanson:
> > To me, "active" in "active American title drought" means that American
> > athletes have competed in the Olympic track events, i.e been active,
> > during the drought period.
>
> No, just it means "current" or "ongoing", as opposed to a case like the
> Chicago Cubs between 1908 and 2016.
> --
> Mark Brader "We can get ideas even from a clever man." ...
> Toronto "Yes, I think you can. Even ideas you should
> m...@vex.net have had yourselves." -- John Dickson Carr

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Bebercito]

AIUI, the phrase must be parsed as "the longest-active American title drought"
(where "longest" and "active" can't be dissociated ), which just means "the
drought that had lasted the longest". But maybe "longest-current" was a better
choice?

[Jerry Friedman]

I like "current" better than "active", but I think "longest" and "active are separate.
You could probably say that America has active title droughts in sports X, Y,
and Z, and the one in sport X is the longest.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Snidely]

Remember when Kerr-Mudd, John bragged outrageously? That was
Wednesday:

> On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:17:41 -0500
> m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>
>> Charles Leviton:
>>>>> Saw this sentence on the NBC sports page
>>>>> "Nineteen-year-old phenom Athing Mu captured 800m gold Tuesday night
>
> 'phenom' is another 'word' that irks me, yet no-one else has commented on it.

Most of us are inured to it, I suppose. It's hardly a new phenomenon
that some one who has suddenly captured our attention is a "fee-nom".
It even predates lol-speak.

/dps

--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean

[Snidely]

Bebercito speculated:

An active title drought is indeed a current title drought (at the time
of speaking), but gluing "longest" to "active" with a hyphen is a
mistake. If hyphens were to be used, it would be "longest
active-title-drought".

>> This all sounds like NBC sport-speak.

I think there are lots of sports broadcasts off of NBC which would use
similar speak.

/dps

--
"I'm glad unicorns don't ever need upgrades."
"We are as up as it is possible to get graded!"
_Phoebe and Her Unicorn_, 2016.05.15

[Quinn C]

* Snidely:

> Remember when Kerr-Mudd, John bragged outrageously? That was
> Wednesday:
>> On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:17:41 -0500
>> m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Leviton:
>>>>>> Saw this sentence on the NBC sports page
>>>>>> "Nineteen-year-old phenom Athing Mu captured 800m gold Tuesday night
>>
>> 'phenom' is another 'word' that irks me, yet no-one else has commented on it.
>
> Most of us are inured to it, I suppose. It's hardly a new phenomenon
> that some one who has suddenly captured our attention is a "fee-nom".
> It even predates lol-speak.

Did George Sim ever use it?

--
It's not from Schopenhauer's Parerga and Paralipoms, that's for sure.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2021-08-04 17:23:39 +0000, Snidely said:

> Remember when Kerr-Mudd, John bragged outrageously? That was Wednesday:
>> On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:17:41 -0500
>> m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Leviton:
>>>>>> Saw this sentence on the NBC sports page
>>>>>> "Nineteen-year-old phenom Athing Mu captured 800m gold Tuesday night
>>
>> 'phenom' is another 'word' that irks me, yet no-one else has commented on it.
>
> Most of us are inured to it, I suppose. It's hardly a new phenomenon
> that some one who has suddenly captured our attention is a "fee-nom".

I guess you and I move in different circles, because I've never heard it.

> It even predates lol-speak.



--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[spains...@gmail.com]

The Phenom is a very cool Argentinian plane:

<https://www.google.com/search?q=phenom&sxsrf=ALeKk02dIoV4a9M21l75xMtzJei6KPZnWg:1628102696306&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwid3fuWg5jyAhUWEcAKHZZHB0AQ_AUoAXoECAIQAw&biw=1181&bih=592#imgrc=lzv1cyBZ9TC2IM>

[Tony Cooper]

To be exposed to the word, you have to follow sports journalism. Young
baseball, football (both kinds), and basketball rising stars are
"phenoms", but young chemists showing great promise are not so
described.

However, in this group, the majority of the sports journalism
followers would be more prone to read about "chess phenoms".

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/25/nyregion/Oliver-Boydell-chess-nyc.html

The above is conditional on considering chess to be a "sport" and that
the journalists who write about rising young chess stars are "sports
journalists".

While their might be exceptions, by the way, a sports "phenom" is
invariably young. It's used to describe someone relatively new to the
sport who shows great promise.

Someone who takes up a sport in their mid-forties, and shows great
promise immediately, is not likely to be considered a "phenom".


--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Mark Brader]

"John":

> 'phenom' is another 'word' that irks me, yet no-one else has commented on it.

Okay: Being irked isn't good for you.
--
Mark Brader "Truly, you have a dizzying intellect."
Toronto "Wait till I get going!"
m...@vex.net -- "The Princess Bride"

[Ken Blake]

On 8/4/2021 11:23 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2021-08-04 17:23:39 +0000, Snidely said:
>
>> Remember when Kerr-Mudd, John bragged outrageously? That was Wednesday:
>>> On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:17:41 -0500
>>> m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Leviton:
>>>>>>> Saw this sentence on the NBC sports page
>>>>>>> "Nineteen-year-old phenom Athing Mu captured 800m gold Tuesday night
>>>
>>> 'phenom' is another 'word' that irks me, yet no-one else has commented on it.
>>
>> Most of us are inured to it, I suppose. It's hardly a new phenomenon
>> that some one who has suddenly captured our attention is a "fee-nom".
>
> I guess you and I move in different circles, because I've never heard it.

I don't think I've ever heard it, but I've seen it in print and on the
internet many times.

However, if I were pronouncing it, I'd say fuh-NOM, like the first two
syllables of "phenomenon," not fee-nom.


--
Ken

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Wed, 04 Aug 2021 14:53:58 -0500
m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

> "John":
> > 'phenom' is another 'word' that irks me, yet no-one else has commented on it.
>
> Okay: Being irked isn't good for you.

Thanks I'm less vexed now.

[Bebercito]

Le mercredi 4 août 2021 à 19:26:53 UTC+2, Snidely a écrit :
> Bebercito speculated:
> > Le mardi 3 août 2021 à 17:03:59 UTC+2, occam a écrit :
> >> On 03/08/2021 17:49, Charles Leviton wrote:
> >>> Saw this sentence on the NBC sports page
> >>> "Nineteen-year-old phenom Athing Mu captured 800m gold Tuesday night in
> >>> Tokyo, breaking the U.S. record and triumphantly expiring what had been the
> >>> longest active American title drought in Olympic women’s track events."
> >>>
> >>> Can you "expire" something, i.e. use it as a transitive verb? I thought
> >>> things just expired like your TV licence or that it is used as a euphemism
> >>> for dying.
> >>>
> >> While you are at it, why not ask what a "passive American title drought"
> >> feels like.
> >
> > AIUI, the phrase must be parsed as "the longest-active American title
> > drought" (where "longest" and "active" can't be dissociated ), which just
> > means "the drought that had lasted the longest". But maybe "longest-current"
> > was a better choice?
> An active title drought is indeed a current title drought (at the time
> of speaking), but gluing "longest" to "active" with a hyphen is a
> mistake.

Not if my take on this is correct, since, precisely, the hyphen is
necessary to impart the intended nuance.

> If hyphens were to be used, it would be "longest
> active-title-drought".

If you're right, I see no reason to use "active" in the original
sentence, as "... that had been the longest American title drought
in Olympic women’s track events" is perfectly fine without "active".

FWIW, instances of "longest active", where "longest" is unmistakably
an adverb that modifies "active", are plentiful in the wild: "longest active
champion", "longest active president", etc. Note that in those two
cases, hyphenating "longest active" would indeed be wrong as there's
no ambiguity to dispel, i.e. there's no such thing as a long champion or
a long president.

[Peter Moylan]

On 07/08/21 11:09, Bebercito wrote:

> FWIW, instances of "longest active", where "longest" is unmistakably
> an adverb that modifies "active", are plentiful in the wild: "longest
> active champion", "longest active president", etc. Note that in those
> two cases, hyphenating "longest active" would indeed be wrong as
> there's no ambiguity to dispel, i.e. there's no such thing as a long
> champion or a long president.

For me the ambiguity was dispelled by your last two lines. Before that,
I read "longest active champion" to me the longest-lasting champion who
was still active in the sport, and similarly for the "president"
example. The possibility that "longest active" might mean
"longest-active" did not occur to me.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Mark Brader]

Bebercito:

>>>>> "Nineteen-year-old phenom Athing Mu captured 800m gold Tuesday night in
>>>>> Tokyo, breaking the U.S. record and triumphantly expiring what had

>>>>>> been the longest active American title drought...

> If you're right, I see no reason to use "active" in the original

> sentence...

I have explained this once. It's another way of saying "current", as
opposed to using "longest ever", which could be referring to a drought
that had already finished in the past.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "People are entitled to their own opinions,
m...@vex.net | but not their own facts." --Michael Bloomberg

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Snidely]

On Friday, Bebercito pointed out that ...

Those exactly match the usage for title drought.

[Snidely]

With a quizzical look, Peter Moylan observed:

It is a title drought that is active (well, up to the time of this
Olympics) and it is the longest title drought that is active (for US
participation).

/dps

--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in
2015.

[Bebercito]

No they don't, as a drought can be long, but a president
can't - however, "longest active presidency" does.

[Snidely]

Bebercito submitted this gripping article, maybe on Friday:

toosh, but I still believe the hyphens would go where I put them.

It is the active presidency that is longest.

/dps "Putin, maybe"

--
"Inviting people to laugh with you while you are laughing at yourself
is a good thing to do, You may be a fool but you're the fool in
charge." -- Carl Reiner

[Peter Moylan]

On 07/08/21 13:17, Mark Brader wrote:
> Bebercito:
>>>>>> "Nineteen-year-old phenom Athing Mu captured 800m gold Tuesday night in
>>>>>> Tokyo, breaking the U.S. record and triumphantly expiring what had
>>>>>>> been the longest active American title drought...
>
>> If you're right, I see no reason to use "active" in the original
>> sentence...
>
> I have explained this once. It's another way of saying "current", as
> opposed to using "longest ever", which could be referring to a drought
> that had already finished in the past.

How many American title droughts are currently active?

[Snidely]

The Phoenix Suns could provide some data on that, and the Atlanta
Hawks. In the colder arena, the Anaheim Ducks haven't had a title
since 2007. UCLA hasn't had a college football title in quite a while.
But I'm straying from the Olympics venues.


/dps

--
The presence of this syntax results from the fact that SQLite is really
a Tcl extension that has escaped into the wild.
<http://www.sqlite.org/lang_expr.html>

[Bebercito]

That's anyone's guess, as the examples I gave demonstrate that two
interpretations are possible and the resulting meanings are similar.

[Jerry Friedman]

In the Summer Olympics? I'll tell you tomorrow.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 3:37:02 AM UTC-6, Snidely wrote:
> Peter Moylan wrote on 8/6/2021 :
> > On 07/08/21 13:17, Mark Brader wrote:
> >> Bebercito:
> >>>>>>> "Nineteen-year-old phenom Athing Mu captured 800m gold Tuesday night
> >>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>> Tokyo, breaking the U.S. record and triumphantly expiring what had
> >>>>>>>> been the longest active American title drought...
> >>
> >>> If you're right, I see no reason to use "active" in the original
> >>> sentence...
> >>
> >> I have explained this once. It's another way of saying "current", as
> >> opposed to using "longest ever", which could be referring to a drought
> >> that had already finished in the past.
> >
> > How many American title droughts are currently active?

> The Phoenix Suns could provide some data on that, and the Atlanta
> Hawks. In the colder arena, the Anaheim Ducks haven't had a title
> since 2007. UCLA hasn't had a college football title in quite a while.
> But I'm straying from the Olympics venues.

And the Cleveland Browns and In^H^HGuar dians.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Mack A. Damia]

46% of California is now under an extreme drought condition. It is a
record drought.

Farmers will be going bankrupt. Rising prices, inflation.

Covid 19 mutations? Climate change? Rising crime? The rise of
authoritarianism?

The End of Days? Reserve a room at the Mars Hilton.

[Peter T. Daniels]

According to "Wait Wait Don't Tell Me" a moment ago, the Cleveland
Guardians is an already extant, and fully trademarked, active, rollr
derby team.

https://www.cleveland19.com/2021/08/03/trademark-battle-over-cleveland-guardians-appears-be-ratcheting-up/

If it was on the Channel 19 News, it must be true.

[Jerry Friedman]

Probably. Looks like a bonanza for the legal industry. (Does anyone
call it an industry?)

--
Jerry Friedman

[Tony Cooper]

I think it's going to create quite a bit of confusion. Other than
native Clevelanders, or frequent visitors to Cleveland, who would be
familiar with the stone edifices that are known as the Guardians?
Few would know that the word "Guardians" is associated with Cleveland
landmarks and that there's a reason that the word would be used in a
team name.

I think the football team should be the "Cleveland Fire" or the
"Cleveland Flames" . More people are aware of the flames on the
Cuyahoga than the Guardians.

I don't think Chicago's pro soccer team or the Toronto hockey team
would bring a lawsuit.

[Jerry Friedman]

...

> I think it's going to create quite a bit of confusion. Other than
> native Clevelanders, or frequent visitors to Cleveland, who would be
> familiar with the stone edifices that are known as the Guardians?
> Few would know that the word "Guardians" is associated with Cleveland
> landmarks and that there's a reason that the word would be used in a
> team name.

I don't think anyone gets confused because Chicago isn't known for bears
(adults or cubs), Los Angeles isn't known for dodgers, San Francisco isn't
known for giants, etc.

> I think the football team should be the "Cleveland Fire" or the
> "Cleveland Flames" . More people are aware of the flames on the
> Cuyahoga than the Guardians.

...

*sigh*

--
Jerry Friedman

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 12:42:41 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

The Dodgers were the Dodgers in Brooklyn, and the term came from the
residents being known as the "trolly dodgers.

The Chicago Bears became the Bears because they played at Cubs park,
and the football team was the grown-up cubs.

The SF Giants were the Giants when they played in NYC at the Polo
Grounds. Prior to being the Giants, they were the Gothams.

You live closer than I do, so you'll have to tell me if there are
cardinals in Tempe. There were in Chicago where they started out, and
in St Louis where they were before Arizona.

>
>> I think the football team should be the "Cleveland Fire" or the
>> "Cleveland Flames" . More people are aware of the flames on the
>> Cuyahoga than the Guardians.
>...
>
>*sigh*
--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Sam Plusnet]

The Cleveland Grovers?


--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK

[Mark Brader]

Bebercito:
>>>>>>> "Nineteen-year-old phenom Athing Mu captured 800m gold Tuesday night in
>>>>>>> Tokyo, breaking the U.S. record and triumphantly expiring what had
>>>>>>>> been the longest active American title drought...

>>> ...I see no reason to use "active" in the original sentence...

Mark Brader:

>> I have explained this once. It's another way of saying "current", as
>> opposed to using "longest ever", which could be referring to a drought
>> that had already finished in the past.

Peter Moylan:

> How many American title droughts are currently active?

One for each team or other competitor that didn't win the most recent
championship.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible"
m...@vex.net | -- Lord Kelvin

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 3:42:44 PM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> I don't think anyone gets confused because Chicago isn't known for bears
> (adults or cubs), Los Angeles isn't known for dodgers,

That one's just because they didn't change their name when they moved
from Brooklyn, where the name started as "trolley-dodgers." (Same as
the Utah Jazz.)

> San Francisco isn't known for giants, etc.

I don't know why the New York Giants were called that, but we still have
the football Giants (who are just up the road from here, sharing Met Life
Stadium with the New York Jets).

> > I think the football team should be the "Cleveland Fire" or the
> > "Cleveland Flames" . More people are aware of the flames on the
> > Cuyahoga than the Guardians.
> ...
>
> *sigh*

Documentarians show that it never actually happened.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 2:23:07 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 12:42:41 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 12:27:54 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 10:27:58 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> >> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 10:16:57 AM UTC-6, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> >> On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 10:30:33 AM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> >> > On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 3:37:02 AM UTC-6, Snidely wrote:
> >> >> > > Peter Moylan wrote on 8/6/2021 :

...

> >> >> > > > How many American title droughts are currently active?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > The Phoenix Suns could provide some data on that, and the Atlanta
> >> >> > > Hawks. In the colder arena, the Anaheim Ducks haven't had a title
> >> >> > > since 2007. UCLA hasn't had a college football title in quite a while.
> >> >> > > But I'm straying from the Olympics venues.
> >> >
> >> >> > And the Cleveland Browns and In^H^HGuar dians.
> >> >
> >> >> According to "Wait Wait Don't Tell Me" a moment ago, the Cleveland
> >> >> Guardians is an already extant, and fully trademarked, active, rollr
> >> >> derby team.
> >> >>
> >> >> https://www.cleveland19.com/2021/08/03/trademark-battle-over-cleveland-guardians-appears-be-ratcheting-up/
> >> >>
> >> >> If it was on the Channel 19 News, it must be true.
> >> >
> >> >Probably.
> >...
> >
> >> I think it's going to create quite a bit of confusion. Other than
> >> native Clevelanders, or frequent visitors to Cleveland, who would be
> >> familiar with the stone edifices that are known as the Guardians?
> >> Few would know that the word "Guardians" is associated with Cleveland
> >> landmarks and that there's a reason that the word would be used in a
> >> team name.
> >
> >I don't think anyone gets confused because Chicago isn't known for bears
> >(adults or cubs), Los Angeles isn't known for dodgers, San Francisco isn't
> >known for giants, etc.

> The Dodgers were the Dodgers in Brooklyn, and the term came from the
> residents being known as the "trolly dodgers.

A fact that was probably about as well known at the time as the Guardians
of Traffic are now. And it has nothing to do with L.A., but it doesn't cause
confusion.

> The Chicago Bears became the Bears because they played at Cubs park,
> and the football team was the grown-up cubs.

Chicago isn't famous for cubs, but there's no confusion.

> The SF Giants were the Giants when they played in NYC at the Polo
> Grounds. Prior to being the Giants, they were the Gothams.

"Gothams" makes sense, but the change to "Giants" didn't cause any
confusion there or in San Francisco.

> You live closer than I do, so you'll have to tell me if there are
> cardinals in Tempe. There were in Chicago where they started out, and
> in St Louis where they were before Arizona.

They're pretty rare there, according to eBird. They're common at foothill
elevations in central and southeastern Arizona, though.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 3:11:08 PM UTC-6, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 07-Aug-21 19:27, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 10:27:58 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> > <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[title droughts]

> >>>> And the Cleveland Browns and In^H^HGuar dians.
> >>
> >>> According to "Wait Wait Don't Tell Me" a moment ago, the Cleveland
> >>> Guardians is an already extant, and fully trademarked, active, rollr
> >>> derby team.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.cleveland19.com/2021/08/03/trademark-battle-over-cleveland-guardians-appears-be-ratcheting-up/
> >>>
> >>> If it was on the Channel 19 News, it must be true.
> >>
> >> Probably. Looks like a bonanza for the legal industry. (Does anyone
> >> call it an industry?)
> >
> >
> > I think it's going to create quite a bit of confusion. Other than
> > native Clevelanders, or frequent visitors to Cleveland, who would be
> > familiar with the stone edifices that are known as the Guardians?

...

> The Cleveland Grovers?

I wonder whether anyone suggested that. Cleveland's even the Forest City.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Tony Cooper]

GMTA, but I didn't post that because I didn't think it would survive
the trip across the pond.

[Sam Plusnet]

He's mentioned in "There's a Small Hotel" by Messrs Rodgers and Hart.
That may not be the only time I have heard the name, but it is why it stuck.

[musika]

He's also the only US President (so far) to serve two non-consecutive terms.

--
Ray
UK

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 1:32:12 PM UTC-7, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 8/4/2021 11:23 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > On 2021-08-04 17:23:39 +0000, Snidely said:
> >
> >> Remember when Kerr-Mudd, John bragged outrageously? That was Wednesday:
> >>> On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:17:41 -0500
> >>> m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Charles Leviton:

> >>>>>>> Saw this sentence on the NBC sports page

> >>>>>>> "Nineteen-year-old phenom Athing Mu captured 800m gold Tuesday night
> >>>

> >>> 'phenom' is another 'word' that irks me, yet no-one else has commented on it.
> >>
> >> Most of us are inured to it, I suppose. It's hardly a new phenomenon
> >> that some one who has suddenly captured our attention is a "fee-nom".
> >
> > I guess you and I move in different circles, because I've never heard it.
> I don't think I've ever heard it, but I've seen it in print and on the
> internet many times.

I think it shows up mainly in the context of North American sports coverage, but
not as often as it did 10 or 15 years ago. In my mind, it's associated with baseball,
but I haven't heard it or read it in years.
>
> However, if I were pronouncing it, I'd say fuh-NOM, like the first two
> syllables of "phenomenon," not fee-nom.
>
Would it bother if no one who heard you had any idea what you were saying? It's a light-hearted
usage, and the fee-nom pronunciation is part of the frisson.

bill

[CDB]

On 8/7/2021 2:27 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:

How 'bout dem Cleveland Grovers?

[CDB]

On 8/7/2021 5:11 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> Tony Cooper wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> Jerry Friedman wrote:

[droughts]

>>>>> And the Cleveland Browns and In^H^HGuar dians.

>>>> According to "Wait Wait Don't Tell Me" a moment ago, the
>>>> Cleveland Guardians is an already extant, and fully
>>>> trademarked, active, rollr derby team.

>>>> https://www.cleveland19.com/2021/08/03/trademark-battle-over-cleveland-guardians-appears-be-ratcheting-up/
>>>> If it was on the Channel 19 News, it must be true.

>>> Probably. Looks like a bonanza for the legal industry. (Does
>>> anyone call it an industry?)

>> I think it's going to create quite a bit of confusion. Other than
>> native Clevelanders, or frequent visitors to Cleveland, who would
>> be familiar with the stone edifices that are known as the
>> Guardians? Few would know that the word "Guardians" is associated
>> with Cleveland landmarks and that there's a reason that the word
>> would be used in a team name.

>> I think the football team should be the "Cleveland Fire" or the
>> "Cleveland Flames" . More people are aware of the flames on the
>> Cuyahoga than the Guardians.

>> I don't think Chicago's pro soccer team or the Toronto hockey team
>> would bring a lawsuit.

> The Cleveland Grovers?

Damn.

[CDB]

On 8/7/2021 5:25 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> Tony Cooper wrote:

>>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> [title droughts]

>>>>>> And the Cleveland Browns and In^H^HGuar dians.

>>>>> According to "Wait Wait Don't Tell Me" a moment ago, the
>>>>> Cleveland Guardians is an already extant, and fully
>>>>> trademarked, active, rollr derby team.

>>>>> https://www.cleveland19.com/2021/08/03/trademark-battle-over-cleveland-guardians-appears-be-ratcheting-up/

>>>>>
>>>>>
If it was on the Channel 19 News, it must be true.

>>>> Probably. Looks like a bonanza for the legal industry. (Does
>>>> anyone call it an industry?)

>>> I think it's going to create quite a bit of confusion. Other
>>> than native Clevelanders, or frequent visitors to Cleveland, who
>>> would be familiar with the stone edifices that are known as the
>>> Guardians?
> ...

>> The Cleveland Grovers?

> I wonder whether anyone suggested that. Cleveland's even the Forest
> City.

Sounds like an epiphany.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gms-Yk7mzv4

[Peter T. Daniels]

Bite your tongue!

[Quinn C]

* bil...@shaw.ca:

> On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 1:32:12 PM UTC-7, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 8/4/2021 11:23 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2021-08-04 17:23:39 +0000, Snidely said:
>>>
>>>> Remember when Kerr-Mudd, John bragged outrageously? That was Wednesday:
>>>>> On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:17:41 -0500
>>>>> m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Leviton:
>>>>>>>>> Saw this sentence on the NBC sports page
>>>>>>>>> "Nineteen-year-old phenom Athing Mu captured 800m gold Tuesday night
>>>>>
>>>>> 'phenom' is another 'word' that irks me, yet no-one else has commented on it.
>>>>
>>>> Most of us are inured to it, I suppose. It's hardly a new phenomenon
>>>> that some one who has suddenly captured our attention is a "fee-nom".
>>>
>>> I guess you and I move in different circles, because I've never heard it.
>> I don't think I've ever heard it, but I've seen it in print and on the
>> internet many times.
>
> I think it shows up mainly in the context of North American sports coverage, but
> not as often as it did 10 or 15 years ago. In my mind, it's associated with baseball,
> but I haven't heard it or read it in years.

I know I can't have it from baseball, so I did a few seconds of
research. Quite a few chess phenoms out there.

--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106

[Chrysi Cat]

On 8/7/2021 3:18 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 3:42:44 PM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> I don't think anyone gets confused because Chicago isn't known for bears
>> (adults or cubs), Los Angeles isn't known for dodgers,
>
> That one's just because they didn't change their name when they moved
> from Brooklyn, where the name started as "trolley-dodgers." (Same as
> the Utah Jazz.)
>
>> San Francisco isn't known for giants, etc.
>
> I don't know why the New York Giants were called that, but we still have
> the football Giants (who are just up the road from here, sharing Met Life
> Stadium with the New York Jets).
>

This is what I get for neglecting this NG for two weeks when my "new"
computer was still working, and then having trouble catching up once I
had to go back to my ancient one. Or maybe more accurately, "this is
what YOU get for my doing so".

The Giants' origins are explained in their Wiki article.

Basically, the legend literally just comes down to Jim Mutrie coming
down and effusively praising "My big fellows! My Giants!" after a
particularly impressive Gothams win and the sports press running with
it, at a time (specifically, 1885) when team names didn't need to be
trademarked ahead of time and the fan base could shift unpredictably in
its choice of term.

At the same time, though, an L.A. Times article from 2019 claims to have
found evidence the New York World was already using the term "Giants"
earlier in 1885 than that game took place.

Which would just go even further towards "sports press chooses nickname;
it catches on with fans".

>>> >>> I think the football team should be the "Cleveland Fire" or the
>>> "Cleveland Flames" . More people are aware of the flames on the
>>> Cuyahoga than the Guardians.
>> ...
>>
>> *sigh*
>
> Documentarians show that it never actually happened.
>

The '69 fire may or may NOT have happened--Tony's [whose attribution was
already stripped BEFORE I composed this reply and applies to the
three-chevron lines--do I have to re-attribute them since I know this?]
(and I suppose my, since I'm defending him here) side of the story can't
be dismissed out of hand just because news photographers didn't arrive
in time to shoot it before being extinguished, and the general public
wasn't nearly as in the habit of snapping off mass quantities of photos
when far fewer of them would be carrying cameras to BEGIN with and the
ones that were would also have to have film in them that they were
willing to expend on documenting the event. So of course "no press
shots" could mean "no actual shots exist, BUT the event could still have
happened".

If it hadn't happened, you'd think that someone would have submitted a
correction to TIME freaking MAGAZINE when it ran with the Cuyahoga
burning as the big indictment against American water-quality policy in
its June 22 issue. And I doubt that said attempt at correction would
have just been circular-filed, so if someone wanted to claim the
Cuyahoga didn't burn in '69, I'm sure the claim is still somewhere in
Time Inc's boneyard to this day. Now, though, it's on the "skeptics" to
dig it up and prove *its* provenance.

The twelve preceding the '69 DO sometimes have documentation, ESPECIALLY
the '52.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

[Chrysi Cat]

"The _Toronto_ hockey team" is the Maple Leafs (and yes, that's the only
spelling they ever use). You're right; they never would.

The _Calgary_ hockey team, on the other hand, is likely to be all over
that for trademark dilution even more than the roller-derby team on the
potential Guardians name.

It's said that this type of thing was coming from non-baseball sports
towards baseball for at least the last 30 years--certainly it's the main
reason that "Denver Bears" wasn't even given consideration for the name
of the National League team that instead stole the DEFUNCT NHL team's
name, as Mickey Monus (McMorris only took over the team AFTER it had
been named), at least, feared that those same "grown-up Cubs" would sue
for dilution and infringement.

Incidentally, the Flames may or may NOT have been a misplaced nickname
themselves for the first four years of the franchise--but I'd suggest
that either way, once the Olympics went through Calgary, "Flames" became
a fitting name instead. They, of course, /originated/ in Atlanta and
have to be the one of the only cases--other than Tony's suggestion of
largely repeating it--where a team took a nickname based on something a
city was ACTUALLY notorious for instead of "notorious" in the malaprop
sense. I'm not even sure there /was/ another that commemorated a
disaster until the also-mentioned Chicago Fire

I'm personally one of the "revive the Spiders" people; that only--and
only arguably!-- commemorates the /other/ sort of disaster that's
possible in sports, and even that would never have happened if baseball
had forbidden syndicates owning two teams and sending all of the good
players to one of them.