'Crock of gold'

[occam]

There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously unrecognised
Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This discovery comes from
'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th century, but hitherto ignored
as fakes.

Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?

Of the several definitions of crock, none are very flattering.
1-'nonsense' (e.g he talking a load of crock); 2- a decrepit person
(old crock); 3- a baked clay jar; 4- a black amorphous substance of coal.

For what is one of the most valued metals on Earth, surely 'crock' is an
odd noun to associate with gold.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I'd go for No. 3. The others don't make sense.
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[Hibou]

Me too. The others jar.

[occam]

Would either of you (Athel, Hibou) elect to keep your gold in a crock?
Why not a bowl, a chest, or some more glamorous box?

'A cache of gold' sounds a far better description than a 'crock of gold'.

[Lionel Edwards]

Crocks can be very large and weather-tight. Where else would you put your
valuable possessions before burying them in the hope of coming back to
them later?

Samuel Pepys buried his cheese in the garden during the Great Fire of
London, and I expect he put it inside crockery.

[bil...@shaw.ca]

Whereas "a crock of shit" is roughly equivalent to "a cache of shit".

Problem is, a "cache of shit" suggests you're saving it for some reason.

And that's a crock.

bill

[occam]

I'm quite sure you do not mean 'crockery'. Did he put his cheese inside
a crock? Or a pot?

[occam]

I have never heard of the expression 'a cache of shit' before. I fail to
see the educational point of this juxtaposition, apart from the fun of
pun. (I am having breakfast, so not very appetising.)

[Peter Moylan]

Your number 3 (the crockery meaning) is the original meaning, and as far
as I know was the sole meaning until the 19th century. The derogatory
meanings 1 and 2 apparently come from focusing on a particular kind of
crock, a chamber pot.

I don't know where number 4 comes from, and I suspect it's an entirely
different word that ended up with the same spelling and pronunciation.

The word "crockery", the collective noun for crocks, is still completely
respectable.

I believe that old folk tales speak of the discovery of a crock of gold.
If you were to discover buried gold, it's not at all unlikely that it
would be in a crock.

At the end of a rainbow, you'll find a crock of gold. If you catch a
leprechaun, you might be able to get his crock of gold. The phrase
recurs in all sorts of stories.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[occam]

On 24/11/2022 10:20, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 24/11/22 19:31, occam wrote:
>
>> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously unrecognised
>> Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This discovery comes
>> from 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th century, but hitherto
>> ignored as fakes.
>>
>> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?
>>
>> Of the several definitions of crock, none are very flattering.
>> 1-'nonsense' (e.g he talking a load of crock);  2- a decrepit person
>>  (old crock); 3- a baked clay jar; 4- a black amorphous substance of
>> coal.
>>
>> For what is one of the most valued metals on Earth, surely 'crock'
>> is an odd noun to associate with gold.
>
> Your number 3 (the crockery meaning) is the original meaning, and as far
> as I know was the sole meaning until the 19th century. The derogatory
> meanings 1 and 2 apparently come from focusing on a particular kind of
> crock, a chamber pot.
>
> I don't know where number 4 comes from, and I suspect it's an entirely
> different word that ended up with the same spelling and pronunciation.

See definition (3), and later as 'Smudge'.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/crock

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 24.11.2022 kl. 09.31 skrev occam:

> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously unrecognised
> Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This discovery comes from
> 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th century, but hitherto ignored
> as fakes.
>
> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?

An Ngram with "* of gold" shows that "amounts of", "ounces of" and
"quantity of" is used more often than "crock of" which is not among the
10 most common words. But some of the other options mean something else
(e.g. "price of gold").

--
Bertel

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 24.11.2022 kl. 09.42 skrev Hibou:

>>> For what is one of the most valued metals on Earth, surely 'crock' is an
>>> odd noun to associate with gold.
>>
>> I'd go for No. 3. The others don't make sense.
>
> Me too. The others jar.

I crock that.

--
Bertel

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 24.11.2022 kl. 09.31 skrev occam:

> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously unrecognised
> Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This discovery comes from
> 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th century, but hitherto ignored
> as fakes.

> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?

It suddenly dawns on me: "Crock" here means a clay jar [see 3)]. Those
were often used in the old days when people buried their treasures. So
in a historic context you may expect to se "crock" with gold or other
values.

--
Bertel

[Peter Moylan]

On 24/11/22 20:54, occam wrote:
> On 24/11/2022 10:20, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 24/11/22 19:31, occam wrote:
>>
>>> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously
>>> unrecognised Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This
>>> discovery comes from 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th
>>> century, but hitherto ignored as fakes.
>>>
>>> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?
>>>
>>> Of the several definitions of crock, none are very flattering.
>>> 1-'nonsense' (e.g he talking a load of crock); 2- a decrepit
>>> person (old crock); 3- a baked clay jar; 4- a black amorphous
>>> substance of coal.
>>>
>>> For what is one of the most valued metals on Earth, surely
>>> 'crock' is an odd noun to associate with gold.
>>
>> Your number 3 (the crockery meaning) is the original meaning, and
>> as far as I know was the sole meaning until the 19th century. The
>> derogatory meanings 1 and 2 apparently come from focusing on a
>> particular kind of crock, a chamber pot.
>>
>> I don't know where number 4 comes from, and I suspect it's an
>> entirely different word that ended up with the same spelling and
>> pronunciation.
>
> See definition (3), and later as 'Smudge'.
>
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/crock

Unfortunately merriam-webster.com is a site that crashes my web browser,
but I can find other web sites that say "crock" is a synonym of "soot".
What I can't find is an origin for that meaning. Etymonline says "But
there were other uses of crock, of uncertain relationship", which of
course is a way of saying "we don't know".

[Hibou]

A crock of gold is a pot of gold.

[Hibou]

> [Yes, a] crock of gold is a pot of gold.

"Yes" added.

[Peter Moylan]

Elsewhere in this thread I mentioned the saying "At the end of the
rainbow, you'll find a crock of gold". Today, the more common version is
"a pot of gold". But this is illogical. Potters often made crocks with
lids, and those are suitable for burying treasure. A pot is less likely
to have a lid.

So why the change? I think it's because "pot" is still a common English
word, while "crock" is a word most often found in old folk tales. For at
least some English speakers, that means that "crock" is an unfamiliar word.

Exception: "crock pot", which is a pot that is not made of crockery, has
become the name for a certain kind of slow cooker. The older form of
slow cooking used a genuine crockery crock that one put in the oven. The
makers of the electric version have taken advantage of people who
vaguely associate "crock" with cooking, but aren't sure why.

[Janet]

In article <ju8pgs...@mid.individual.net>,
oc...@nowhere.nix says...

>
> On 24/11/2022 09:42, Hibou wrote:
> > Le 24/11/2022 à 08:41, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> >> On 2022-11-24 08:31:19 +0000, occam said:
> >>>
> >>> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously unrecognised
> >>> Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This discovery comes from
> >>> 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th century, but hitherto ignored
> >>> as fakes.
> >>>
> >>> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?
> >>>
> >>> Of the several definitions of crock, none are very flattering.
> >>> 1-'nonsense' (e.g he talking a load of crock);  2- a decrepit person
> >>> (old crock); 3- a baked clay jar; 4- a black amorphous substance of
> >>> coal.
> >>>
> >>> For what is one of the most valued metals on Earth, surely 'crock' is an
> >>> odd noun to associate with gold.
> >>
> >> I'd go for No. 3. The others don't make sense.
> >
> > Me too. The others jar.
> >
>
> Would either of you (Athel, Hibou) elect to keep your gold in a crock?

A broken teapot is ideal.

> Why not a bowl, a chest, or some more glamorous box?

First place a robber would look. You might as well draw
a map marked gold, with a pointing arrow.


Janet

[CDB]

On 11/24/2022 3:31 AM, occam wrote:

> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously
> unrecognised Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This
> discovery comes from 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th
> century, but hitherto ignored as fakes.

> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?

Colloquially around here (Ontario, Canada, all you lurkers) "crock of
shit" is a disparaging description for a short, disliked person.
"Miserable little crock of shit".

> Of the several definitions of crock, none are very flattering.
> 1-'nonsense' (e.g he talking a load of crock); 2- a decrepit person
> (old crock); 3- a baked clay jar; 4- a black amorphous substance of
> coal.

> For what is one of the most valued metals on Earth, surely 'crock' is
> an odd noun to associate with gold.

Gollum fell into a Crock of Doom. Agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.

[CDB]

On 11/24/2022 4:10 AM, occam wrote:
> bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>> occam wrote:
>>> Hibou wrote:
>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :

I have recently heard that word - twice - pronounced "cashay" [k&'Se]: a
pronunciation of low prestige and litle appeal.

[Ken Blake]

1 is common, at least in my experience, but just saying "crock" is
short for a "crock (number 3) of shit."

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 09:49:32 +0100, occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>On 24/11/2022 09:42, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 24/11/2022 à 08:41, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
>>> On 2022-11-24 08:31:19 +0000, occam said:
>>>>
>>>> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously unrecognised
>>>> Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This discovery comes from
>>>> 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th century, but hitherto ignored
>>>> as fakes.
>>>>
>>>> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?
>>>>
>>>> Of the several definitions of crock, none are very flattering.
>>>> 1-'nonsense' (e.g he talking a load of crock);  2- a decrepit person
>>>> (old crock); 3- a baked clay jar; 4- a black amorphous substance of
>>>> coal.
>>>>
>>>> For what is one of the most valued metals on Earth, surely 'crock' is an
>>>> odd noun to associate with gold.
>>>
>>> I'd go for No. 3. The others don't make sense.
>>
>> Me too. The others jar.
>>
>
>Would either of you (Athel, Hibou) elect to keep your gold in a crock?

I keep all my gold in a molar.

[Ken Blake]

I'm quite sure he meant "crockery."

[CDB]

On 11/24/2022 5:31 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:

My crockpot is a heavy ceramic container that fits into its own heating
device. I concede that the lid is made of some kind of plastic.

It has fallen into disuse now that I no longer cook tough cuts of meat.

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:31:37 +1100, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 24/11/22 21:02, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> Den 24.11.2022 kl. 09.31 skrev occam:
>>
>>> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously
>>> unrecognised Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This
>>> discovery comes from 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th
>>> century, but hitherto ignored as fakes.
>>
>>> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?
>>
>> It suddenly dawns on me: "Crock" here means a clay jar [see 3)].
>> Those were often used in the old days when people buried their
>> treasures. So in a historic context you may expect to se "crock" with
>> gold or other values.
>
>Elsewhere in this thread I mentioned the saying "At the end of the
>rainbow, you'll find a crock of gold". Today, the more common version is
>"a pot of gold". But this is illogical. Potters often made crocks with
>lids, and those are suitable for burying treasure. A pot is less likely
>to have a lid.

All the pots in my house have lids. I don't think I have any
crocks--certainly none filled with shit.

[Lionel Edwards]

Crockery in its sense of relating to crocks. You can read for yourself how they
stored and disposed of their valuables during the 17th Century - start from
Sunday Sept 2nd:

<https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1666/09/>

"...poor Tom Hater come with some few of his goods saved out of his house, which
is burned upon Fish-streets Hill. I invited him to lie at my house, and did receive
his goods, but was deceived in his lying there, the newes coming every moment
of the growth of the fire; so as we were forced to begin to pack up our owne goods;
and prepare for their removal; and did by moonshine (it being brave dry, and moon
shine, and warm weather) carry much of my goods into the garden, and Mr. Hater
and I did remove my money and iron chests into my cellar, as thinking that the
safest place. And got my bags of gold into my office, ready to carry away, and my
chief papers of accounts also there, and my tallys into a box by themselves..."

[occam]

You give no context. However there is a word 'cachet' which is
pronounced that way, which means something else.

[Lionel Edwards]

...the cheese was a Parmezan and went into the ground on the 4th:

"Sir W. Pen and I to Tower-streete, and there met the fire burning three or four doors
beyond Mr. Howell’s, whose goods, poor man, his trayes, and dishes, shovells, &c.,
were flung all along Tower-street in the kennels, and people working therewith from
one end to the other; the fire coming on in that narrow streete, on both sides, with
infinite fury. Sir W. Batten not knowing how to remove his wine, did dig a pit in the
garden, and laid it in there; and I took the opportunity of laying all the papers of my
office that I could not otherwise dispose of. And in the evening Sir W. Pen and I did
dig another, and put our wine in it; and I my Parmazan cheese, as well as my wine
and some other things..."

<https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1666/09/>

[Jerry Friedman]

I've heard "cache" meaning "hiding place" pronounced as if it were
"cachet". I also recently heard it pronounce as one syllable with the
FACE vowel.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Mack A. Damia]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 10:00:40 -0500, CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 11/24/2022 3:31 AM, occam wrote:
>
>> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously
>> unrecognised Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This
>> discovery comes from 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th
>> century, but hitherto ignored as fakes.
>
>> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?
>
>Colloquially around here (Ontario, Canada, all you lurkers) "crock of
>shit" is a disparaging description for a short, disliked person.
>"Miserable little crock of shit".

In my mitwelt, it can refer to any activity, account or description of
practically anything that is wrong, bad or ridiculous, but it is a
purely subjective description made by somebody that may be true or
false.

For instance, Trump's attempt to deny the election is a crock of shit.

Not so much the person.

[Adam Funk]

"Cache" is pronounced with the FACE vowel in AusE. (So are "geocache"
and its derivatives.) I started a thread about that last year after I
heard it on podcast.


--
rise to claim Saturn, ring and sky

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-11-24, Hibou wrote:

> Le 24/11/2022 à 08:41, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :

>> On 2022-11-24 08:31:19 +0000, occam said:
>>>
>>> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously unrecognised
>>> Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This discovery comes from
>>> 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th century, but hitherto ignored
>>> as fakes.
>>>
>>> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?
>>>
>>> Of the several definitions of crock, none are very flattering.
>>> 1-'nonsense' (e.g he talking a load of crock);  2- a decrepit person
>>> (old crock); 3- a baked clay jar; 4- a black amorphous substance of coal.
>>>
>>> For what is one of the most valued metals on Earth, surely 'crock' is an
>>> odd noun to associate with gold.
>>
>> I'd go for No. 3. The others don't make sense.
>
> Me too. The others jar.

I agree.


--
We'll tell you anything you want to hear, we lie like hell.
--Howard Beale

[Tony Cooper]

If would read "The polo player logo on a shirt is Ralph Lauren cachet"
aloud, I would pronounce "cachet" as "cash-ay"

If I would read "The detectorist found a cache of coins" aloud I would
pronounce "cache" as "kash".

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[lar3ryca]

Let me guess. at least one of those was on a CTV news story, probably
out of Regina. I heard that from Lee Jones, probably about two weeks ago.

--
Why did the Star Wars movies come out in the sequence 4, 5, 6, 1, 2, 3?
Because in charge of sequence, Yoda was.

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-11-24 03:20, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 24/11/22 19:31, occam wrote:
>

>> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously unrecognised
>> Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This discovery comes
>> from 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th century, but hitherto
>> ignored as fakes.
>>
>> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?
>>
>> Of the several definitions of crock, none are very flattering.
>> 1-'nonsense' (e.g he talking a load of crock);  2- a decrepit person
>>  (old crock); 3- a baked clay jar; 4- a black amorphous substance of
>> coal.
>>
>> For what is one of the most valued metals on Earth, surely 'crock'
>> is an odd noun to associate with gold.
>

> Your number 3 (the crockery meaning) is the original meaning, and as far
> as I know was the sole meaning until the 19th century. The derogatory
> meanings 1 and 2 apparently come from focusing on a particular kind of
> crock, a chamber pot.
>
> I don't know where number 4 comes from, and I suspect it's an entirely
> different word that ended up with the same spelling and pronunciation.
>

> The word "crockery", the collective noun for crocks, is still completely
> respectable.
>
> I believe that old folk tales speak of the discovery of a crock of gold.
> If you were to discover buried gold, it's not at all unlikely that it
> would be in a crock.
>
> At the end of a rainbow, you'll find a crock of gold. If you catch a
> leprechaun, you might be able to get his crock of gold. The phrase
> recurs in all sorts of stories.

I've always heard that as "A pot of gold", but I agree that a crock of
anything worth saving is an unremarkable place.

--
ANAGRAMS
A DECIMAL POINT: I'm a dot in place.
ONE PLUS TWELVE: Two plus eleven.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 10:10:12 +0100
occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

> On 24/11/2022 09:57, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 24, 2022 at 12:49:37 AM UTC-8, occam wrote:

> >> On 24/11/2022 09:42, Hibou wrote:
> >>> Le 24/11/2022 à 08:41, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> >>>> On 2022-11-24 08:31:19 +0000, occam said:
> >>>>>

> >>>>> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously unrecognised
> >>>>> Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This discovery comes from
> >>>>> 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th century, but hitherto ignored
> >>>>> as fakes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Of the several definitions of crock, none are very flattering.
> >>>>> 1-'nonsense' (e.g he talking a load of crock); 2- a decrepit person
> >>>>> (old crock); 3- a baked clay jar; 4- a black amorphous substance of
> >>>>> coal.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For what is one of the most valued metals on Earth, surely 'crock' is an
> >>>>> odd noun to associate with gold.
> >>>>

> >>>> I'd go for No. 3. The others don't make sense.
> >>>
> >>> Me too. The others jar.
> >>>
> >> Would either of you (Athel, Hibou) elect to keep your gold in a crock?
> >> Why not a bowl, a chest, or some more glamorous box?
> >>
> >> 'A cache of gold' sounds a far better description than a 'crock of gold'.
> >
> > Whereas "a crock of shit" is roughly equivalent to "a cache of shit".
> >

You'd presumably put it there cack-handed.

> > Problem is, a "cache of shit" suggests you're saving it for some reason.
>
> I have never heard of the expression 'a cache of shit' before. I fail to
> see the educational point of this juxtaposition, apart from the fun of
> pun. (I am having breakfast, so not very appetising.)
>
> >

> > And that's a crock.
> >

> > bill
>


--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 24-11-2022 kl. 16:12 skrev Ken Blake:
> All the pots in my house have lids. I don't think I have any
> crocks

How would you distinguish a crock from a pot?
It's not just that crock is not in your active vocabulary?

/Anders, Denmark

[Tony Cooper]

Dunno about Ken, but I would call something a crock only if it was
made out of earthenware. A pot is made out of metal or glass.

In current usage, that is. Earthenware pots were the only type of
pots at one time.

Many people today have earthenware or stoneware crocks in the kitchen,
but they are used to store things in, not for cooking things in.

[Bebercito]

Le jeudi 24 novembre 2022 à 21:12:19 UTC+1, Tony Cooper a écrit :
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:02:57 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
> <news2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Den 24-11-2022 kl. 16:12 skrev Ken Blake:
> >> All the pots in my house have lids. I don't think I have any
> >> crocks
> >
> >How would you distinguish a crock from a pot?
> >It's not just that crock is not in your active vocabulary?
> >
> Dunno about Ken, but I would call something a crock only if it was
> made out of earthenware. A pot is made out of metal or glass.

Not in the translation of the Fable of La Fontaine:

---
Le Pot de Terre et le Pot de Fer


The Clay Pot and the Iron Pot

Pot of Iron once proposed
A voyage to Pot of Clay.
(...)

http://lafontaine.mmlc.northwestern.edu/fables/terre_fer_en.html
---

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, November 24, 2022 at 1:12:19 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:02:57 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
> <news2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Den 24-11-2022 kl. 16:12 skrev Ken Blake:
> >> All the pots in my house have lids. I don't think I have any
> >> crocks
> >
> >How would you distinguish a crock from a pot?
> >It's not just that crock is not in your active vocabulary?
> >
> Dunno about Ken, but I would call something a crock only if it was
> made out of earthenware.

I'd say any kind of ceramic or stone.

> A pot is made out of metal or glass.
>
> In current usage, that is. Earthenware pots were the only type of
> pots at one time.
>
> Many people today have earthenware or stoneware crocks in the kitchen,
> but they are used to store things in, not for cooking things in.

Actually, you can get earthenware stew pots, which some might call
crocks. My mother had one not that long ago.

https://www.epicurious.com/shopping/a-guide-to-clay-cooking-pots

--
Jerry Friedman

[Paul Wolff]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022, at 15:12:13, Tony Cooper posted:

>On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:02:57 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"

>>Den 24-11-2022 kl. 16:12 skrev Ken Blake:
>>> All the pots in my house have lids. I don't think I have any
>>> crocks
>>
>>How would you distinguish a crock from a pot?
>>It's not just that crock is not in your active vocabulary?
>
>Dunno about Ken, but I would call something a crock only if it was
>made out of earthenware. A pot is made out of metal or glass.
>
>In current usage, that is. Earthenware pots were the only type of
>pots at one time.

Pots are to pottery as crocks are to crockery.

>
>Many people today have earthenware or stoneware crocks in the kitchen,
>but they are used to store things in, not for cooking things in.

As an ex-chemist, I ought to pay some attention to this. I've not really
thought hard about the limits of earthenware and stoneware and indeed of
any other -ware. Porcelain is a bit of an outlier, I think. Let's call
it all 'ceramics' while we gather our thoughts. I'm going to stay the
weekend with a potter soon, and I'll ask him (if I remember to by then).
--
Paul W

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 15:12:13 -0500
Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:02:57 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
> <news2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Den 24-11-2022 kl. 16:12 skrev Ken Blake:
> >> All the pots in my house have lids. I don't think I have any
> >> crocks
> >
> >How would you distinguish a crock from a pot?
> >It's not just that crock is not in your active vocabulary?
> >
>
> Dunno about Ken, but I would call something a crock only if it was
> made out of earthenware. A pot is made out of metal or glass.
>
> In current usage, that is. Earthenware pots were the only type of
> pots at one time.
>

Will no-one remember the Beaker people?

Only Sesame Street.

> Many people today have earthenware or stoneware crocks in the kitchen,
> but they are used to store things in, not for cooking things in.
>
> --
>
> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
>
> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[Sam Plusnet]

On 24-Nov-22 8:31, occam wrote:
> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously unrecognised
> Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This discovery comes from
> 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th century, but hitherto ignored
> as fakes.
>
> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?
>
> Of the several definitions of crock, none are very flattering.
> 1-'nonsense' (e.g he talking a load of crock); 2- a decrepit person
> (old crock); 3- a baked clay jar; 4- a black amorphous substance of coal.
>
> For what is one of the most valued metals on Earth, surely 'crock' is an
> odd noun to associate with gold.

I don't understand the question. "Crock" describes the container, not
the content.
Would a "wallet" full of credit cards say anything meaningful about the
cards?

--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

On 24-Nov-22 10:31, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> Elsewhere in this thread I mentioned the saying "At the end of the
> rainbow, you'll find a crock of gold". Today, the more common version is
> "a pot of gold". But this is illogical. Potters often made crocks with
> lids, and those are suitable for burying treasure. A pot is less likely
> to have a lid.

But gold is the one thing you could bury in a 'pot' without a secure lid.
Pretty much anything else would degrade in some way if you left it
buried for any length of time[1], but gold can still look like new when
it is unearthed a millennia or two later.

[1] I assume the person burying the goods hopes to retrieve them quite
quickly.
Peyps' cheese was soon back in the kitchen.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 24.11.2022 kl. 21.31 skrev Jerry Friedman:

> Actually, you can get earthenware stew pots, which some might call
> crocks. My mother had one not that long ago.

Would you call this a crock?

https://temp.lundhansen.dk/

--
Bertel

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Thursday, November 24, 2022 at 2:02:05 AM UTC-8, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Den 24.11.2022 kl. 09.31 skrev occam:

> > There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously unrecognised
> > Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This discovery comes from
> > 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th century, but hitherto ignored
> > as fakes.
>
> > Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?

> It suddenly dawns on me: "Crock" here means a clay jar [see 3)]. Those
> were often used in the old days when people buried their treasures. So
> in a historic context you may expect to se "crock" with gold or other
> values.
>

Not really. I mean, it's possible that a crock, especially a buried crock, could
have gold in it, for safe-keeping in dangerous times. But at my parents' house,
and I think most people's houses in Europe in the mid-20th century, they usually
held cucumbers being turned into pickles.

Incidentally, if you do a Google image search for "crock" or "crock-pot", nearly all
the results are for modern electric appliances that can be used for various sorts of cooking.
You have to dig deep to find anything that's not electric, and there's no sign in the early
results pages of the earthenware pots that my parents used.

Those pots resembled Delft blue, but were much larger than most Delft-ware,
the blue was darker and the decorations a bit coarser. My mother called the
ones she owned "Keulse potten", Dutch for pots of Cologne (Keulen). I'm guessing
they were made there, at least at one time.

bill

[Ross Clark]

On 25/11/2022 1:15 a.m., Janet wrote:
> In article <ju8pgs...@mid.individual.net>,
> oc...@nowhere.nix says...

>>
>> On 24/11/2022 09:42, Hibou wrote:
>>> Le 24/11/2022 à 08:41, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
>>>> On 2022-11-24 08:31:19 +0000, occam said:
>>>>>

>>>>> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously unrecognised
>>>>> Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This discovery comes from
>>>>> 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th century, but hitherto ignored
>>>>> as fakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?
>>>>>

>>>>> Of the several definitions of crock, none are very flattering.
>>>>> 1-'nonsense' (e.g he talking a load of crock);  2- a decrepit person
>>>>> (old crock); 3- a baked clay jar; 4- a black amorphous substance of
>>>>> coal.
>>>>>
>>>>> For what is one of the most valued metals on Earth, surely 'crock' is an
>>>>> odd noun to associate with gold.
>>>>

>>>> I'd go for No. 3. The others don't make sense.
>>>
>>> Me too. The others jar.
>>>
>>
>> Would either of you (Athel, Hibou) elect to keep your gold in a crock?
>

> A broken teapot is ideal.

>
>> Why not a bowl, a chest, or some more glamorous box?
>

> First place a robber would look. You might as well draw
> a map marked gold, with a pointing arrow.
>

Or use one of those sacks with "$" written on it, like in the comics
(Uncle Scrooge, Beagle Boys)?

[Peter T. Daniels]

It's surprising that none of the literati here have heard of James
Stephens's *Crock of Gold*.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Stephens_(author)#Literary_career

[bil...@shaw.ca]

It's a big step from "didn't refer to" that particular cultural niche to "never heard of" it.

bill

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 24.11.2022 kl. 22.40 skrev bil...@shaw.ca:

>> were often used in the old days when people buried their treasures. So
>> in a historic context you may expect to se "crock" with gold or other
>> values.
>>
> Not really. I mean, it's possible that a crock, especially a buried crock, could
> have gold in it, for safe-keeping in dangerous times. But at my parents' house,
> and I think most people's houses in Europe in the mid-20th century, they usually
> held cucumbers being turned into pickles.

Okay, "historic" can cover many different times. I was thinking of the
times of the Vikings or the Middle Ages.

--
Bertel

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 13:40:24 -0800 (PST), "bil...@shaw.ca"
<bil...@shaw.ca> wrote:

>On Thursday, November 24, 2022 at 2:02:05 AM UTC-8, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> Den 24.11.2022 kl. 09.31 skrev occam:
>> > There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously unrecognised
>> > Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This discovery comes from
>> > 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th century, but hitherto ignored
>> > as fakes.
>>
>> > Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?
>> It suddenly dawns on me: "Crock" here means a clay jar [see 3)]. Those
>> were often used in the old days when people buried their treasures. So
>> in a historic context you may expect to se "crock" with gold or other
>> values.
>>
>Not really. I mean, it's possible that a crock, especially a buried crock, could
>have gold in it, for safe-keeping in dangerous times. But at my parents' house,
>and I think most people's houses in Europe in the mid-20th century, they usually
>held cucumbers being turned into pickles.

T'was done in the US, too. A one-time neighbor of ours when I was
growing up had several crocks of cucumbers being turned into pickles
in a root cellar. Not fancy decorated Delft blue crocks, though.

Jerry has me hyphen-concious, so I Googled "root cellar" to see if it
needed a hyphen. (It doesn't) Wiki says "root cellar" is American
English and "earth cellar" is the BrE term.

The neighbor's root cellar was half-underground and located out in
their large yard next to their extensive garden area. <A sentence
which presents a AmE vs BrE conflict with "yard" and "garden" being
used in the AmE way.

>
>Incidentally, if you do a Google image search for "crock" or "crock-pot", nearly all
>the results are for modern electric appliances that can be used for various sorts of cooking.
>You have to dig deep to find anything that's not electric, and there's no sign in the early
>results pages of the earthenware pots that my parents used.
>
>Those pots resembled Delft blue, but were much larger than most Delft-ware,
>the blue was darker and the decorations a bit coarser. My mother called the
>ones she owned "Keulse potten", Dutch for pots of Cologne (Keulen). I'm guessing
>they were made there, at least at one time.
>
>bill

[Sam Plusnet]

Not for someone who wears seven league boots.

Giant leaps are the stock in trade of some posters.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Peter Moylan]

I've heard some Australians pronounce it with the FACE vowel, but I'm
not convinced that that's the majority AusE pronunciation.

It could be age-related.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[lar3ryca]

NO, but when someone says 'crock', I think of one of these. Some have
lids. Some don't.

<https://www.amazon.ca/Ohio-Stoneware-1GC-Crock-7-34/dp/B002P4PS3S/ref=sr_1_55?crid=EERY2IRGSQOY&keywords=crock&qid=1669345394&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI1Ljg2IiwicXNhIjoiNC45NCIsInFzcCI6IjMuOTMifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=crock%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-55>

--
Been there. Done that. This IS the T-shirt

[Ross Clark]

Looking back at the discussion in question, it appears that AusEng and
NZEng dictionaries agree that it has the FACE vowel _only_ in the
computing sense. Where could that have come from? I haven't seen any
evidence of its use in AmEng. All I could suggest was a spelling
pronunciation by people unfamiliar with the other senses -- at least not
by ear, where they would have heard the TRAP vowel.

[Peter Moylan]

Many years ago, I noticed that the Macquarie Dictionary was rather weak
in the area of computer terminology. For example, its definition of
"microprocessor" was clearly written by someone who didn't understand
the difference between a microprocessor and a personal computer. Looking
at the acknowledgements (in the preface, I think) I gained the
impression that they were relying on a "computer expert" who was not expert.

Since that time I have lost my Macquarie Dictionary to divorce, and I
never got around to replacing it, so I don't know the current situation.
It's always possible, though, that in the case of a computer cache they
got their expert advice from the wrong expert.

I'm not denying that some people say "cache" with the FACE vowel, but I
suspect that the prevalence of that pronunciation has been
overestimated. Again, though, it's something that might have changed
over the years. In that sense it's a specialist term, and students get
their specialist terms from their teachers, and some of those students
pass that on to the next generation.

[Peter Moylan]

Yes, that's a crock, but it's not what would naturally spring to my mind
because it won't fit in the oven. My mental image is more like this

https://www.hsn.com/products/crock-pot-artisan-23qt-round-stoneware-casserole-w-lid-/20587629

which is similar to Bertel's example.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 25.11.2022 kl. 04.05 skrev lar3ryca:

> NO, but when someone says 'crock', I think of one of these. Some have
> lids. Some don't.

> <https://www.amazon.ca/Ohio-Stoneware-1GC-Crock-7-34/dp/B002P4PS3S/ref=sr_1_55?crid=EERY2IRGSQOY&keywords=crock&qid=1669345394&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI1Ljg2IiwicXNhIjoiNC45NCIsInFzcCI6IjMuOTMifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=crock%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-55>

Strange that I didn't think of it before, but the Danish word for
"crock" is "krukke" - similar pronunciation, but with the vowel in
"croke" -ish and two syllables.

--
Bertel

[occam]

On 24/11/2022 17:12, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Thursday, November 24, 2022 at 8:35:32 AM UTC-7, occam wrote:

>> On 24/11/2022 16:05, CDB wrote:
>>> On 11/24/2022 4:10 AM, occam wrote:
>>>> bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>>>>> occam wrote:
>>>>>> Hibou wrote:
>>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
>>>>>>>> occam said:
>>>

>>>>>>>>> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously
>>>>>>>>> unrecognised Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century.
>>>>>>>>> This discovery comes from 'a crock of' gold coins found in
>>>>>>>>> the 18th century, but hitherto ignored as fakes.
>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?
>>>

>>>>>>>>> Of the several definitions of crock, none are very
>>>>>>>>> flattering. 1-'nonsense' (e.g he talking a load of crock);
>>>>>>>>> 2- a decrepit person (old crock); 3- a baked clay jar; 4- a
>>>>>>>>> black amorphous substance of coal.
>>>
>>>>>>>>> For what is one of the most valued metals on Earth, surely
>>>>>>>>> 'crock' is an odd noun to associate with gold.
>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd go for No. 3. The others don't make sense.
>>>
>>>>>>> Me too. The others jar.
>>>
>>>>>> Would either of you (Athel, Hibou) elect to keep your gold in a

>>>>>> crock? Why not a bowl, a chest, or some more glamorous box?
>>>

>>>>>> 'A cache of gold' sounds a far better description than a 'crock
>>>>>> of gold'.
>>>

>>>>> Whereas "a crock of shit" is roughly equivalent to "a cache of
>>>>> shit".
>>>

>>>>> Problem is, a "cache of shit" suggests you're saving it for some
>>>>> reason.
>>>
>>>> I have never heard of the expression 'a cache of shit' before. I fail
>>>> to see the educational point of this juxtaposition, apart from the
>>>> fun of pun. (I am having breakfast, so not very appetising.)
>>>

>>> I have recently heard that word - twice - pronounced "cashay" [k&'Se]: a
>>> pronunciation of low prestige and litle appeal.
>>>

>> You give no context. However there is a word 'cachet' which is
>> pronounced that way, which means something else.

>
> I've heard "cache" meaning "hiding place" pronounced as if it were
> "cachet". I also recently heard it pronounce as one syllable with the
> FACE vowel.
>

The French for hide and seek (as in 'hiding place') is cache-cache. It
is pronounced 'cash-cash'. I suspect the origin of 'cache' is the French
verb 'cacher' (to hide, 'cash-ay').

So, beware who you play hide and seek with. They may be mispronouncing
words.

[charles]

In article <vlRfL.68387$Mlk....@fx17.iad>,

Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> On 24-Nov-22 10:31, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >
> > Elsewhere in this thread I mentioned the saying "At the end of the
> > rainbow, you'll find a crock of gold". Today, the more common version is
> > "a pot of gold". But this is illogical. Potters often made crocks with
> > lids, and those are suitable for burying treasure. A pot is less likely
> > to have a lid.


> But gold is the one thing you could bury in a 'pot' without a secure lid.
> Pretty much anything else would degrade in some way if you left it
> buried for any length of time[1], but gold can still look like new when
> it is unearthed a millennia or two later.

The "Galloway Hoard" unearthed recently had sufficient traces of wool
(probably used as wrappimg) to determine where it had come from.

> [1] I assume the person burying the goods hopes to retrieve them quite
> quickly.
> Peyps' cheese was soon back in the kitchen.

--

from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

Dispepsya?

That's the backstory (alloneword?) to most of these Treasure Troves; the
people burying it didn't make it back.

[Adam Funk]

Isn't it normally the case that general-purpose dictionaries are weak
on technical terms?

> Since that time I have lost my Macquarie Dictionary to divorce, and I
> never got around to replacing it, so I don't know the current situation.
> It's always possible, though, that in the case of a computer cache they
> got their expert advice from the wrong expert.
>
> I'm not denying that some people say "cache" with the FACE vowel, but I
> suspect that the prevalence of that pronunciation has been
> overestimated. Again, though, it's something that might have changed
> over the years. In that sense it's a specialist term, and students get
> their specialist terms from their teachers, and some of those students
> pass that on to the next generation.

I found copies of my posts, starting on 8 Sep 2021 (MID
<vaom0ix...@news.ducksburg.com>, Subject: Pronunciation of "cache"
(& related words)).

The Australian interviewed on the podcast told her American
interlocutors that that was how "we" (Australians) said it. I think
you wrote in the thread that the word had been infrequent in normal
use & was probably reintroduced as computer jargon with the new
pronunciation.


--
We live in capitalism. Its power seems inescapable. But then, so did
the divine right of kings. Any human power can be resisted and changed
by human beings. Resistance and change often begin in art. Very often
in the art of words. ---Ursula Le Guin

[CDB]

On 11/24/2022 10:35 AM, occam wrote:
> CDB wrote:
>> occam wrote:
>>> bil...@shaw.ca wrote:

[things in crocks]

>>>> Problem is, a "cache of shit" suggests you're saving it for
>>>> some reason.

>>> I have never heard of the expression 'a cache of shit' before. I
>>> fail to see the educational point of this juxtaposition, apart
>>> from the fun of pun. (I am having breakfast, so not very
>>> appetising.)

>> I have recently heard that word - twice - pronounced "cashay"
>> [k&'Se]: a pronunciation of low prestige and litle appeal.

> You give no context. However there is a word 'cachet' which is
> pronounced that way, which means something else.

I didn't give the context because I don't remember it, having fallen
into a doodah upon hearing the misusage. The word intended was clearly
"cache", though: "a cache/cashay of stuff". Stuff like that.

[CDB]

On 11/25/2022 2:31 AM, occam wrote:

> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> occam wrote:
>>> CDB wrote:
>>>> occam wrote:
>>>>> bil...@shaw.ca wrote:

[cric, crac, crock?]

>>>>>> Whereas "a crock of shit" is roughly equivalent to "a
>>>>>> cache of shit".

>>>>>> Problem is, a "cache of shit" suggests you're saving it
>>>>>> for some reason.

>>>>> I have never heard of the expression 'a cache of shit'
>>>>> before. I fail to see the educational point of this
>>>>> juxtaposition, apart from the fun of pun. (I am having
>>>>> breakfast, so not very appetising.)

>>>> I have recently heard that word - twice - pronounced "cashay"
>>>> [k&'Se]: a pronunciation of low prestige and litle appeal.

>>> You give no context. However there is a word 'cachet' which is
>>> pronounced that way, which means something else.

>> I've heard "cache" meaning "hiding place" pronounced as if it were
>> "cachet". I also recently heard it pronounce as one syllable
>> with the FACE vowel.

> The French for hide and seek (as in 'hiding place') is cache-cache.
> It is pronounced 'cash-cash'. I suspect the origin of 'cache' is the
> French verb 'cacher' (to hide, 'cash-ay').

> So, beware who you play hide and seek with. They may be
> mispronouncing words.

Playing for money would lend new meaning to the phrase "allee allee outs
in free".

--
"Cric?" "Crac!" is the traditional exchange between teller and listeners
before the telling of a story in Haiti.

[CDB]

On 11/24/2022 2:34 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
> CDB wrote:

[cacheing out]

>> I have recently heard that word - twice - pronounced "cashay"
>> [k&'Se]: a pronunciation of low prestige and litle appeal.

....

> Let me guess. at least one of those was on a CTV news story, probably
> out of Regina. I heard that from Lee Jones, probably about two weeks
> ago.

The timing sounds right, anyway.

[CDB]

On 11/24/2022 3:31 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> Tony Cooper wrote:
>> "Anders D. Nygaard" <news2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Ken Blake:

>>>> All the pots in my house have lids. I don't think I have any
>>>> crocks

>>> How would you distinguish a crock from a pot? It's not just that
>>> crock is not in your active vocabulary?

>> Dunno about Ken, but I would call something a crock only if it was
>> made out of earthenware.

> I'd say any kind of ceramic or stone.

>> A pot is made out of metal or glass.

>> In current usage, that is. Earthenware pots were the only type of
>> pots at one time.

>> Many people today have earthenware or stoneware crocks in the
>> kitchen, but they are used to store things in, not for cooking
>> things in.

> Actually, you can get earthenware stew pots, which some might call
> crocks. My mother had one not that long ago.

> https://www.epicurious.com/shopping/a-guide-to-clay-cooking-pots

Our cook in Mexico made frijoles refritos in a clay pot over a very slow
gas fire. It took a couple of days, but it was extremely good.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Not in the context of the preexistence of the phrase.

[Jerry Friedman]

Or a deliberate avoidance of confusion with "cash". I've heard the two-
syllable pronunciation of "buoy" justified that way, though I don't know
whether that's how it started.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:02:57 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
<news2...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Den 24-11-2022 kl. 16:12 skrev Ken Blake:
>> All the pots in my house have lids. I don't think I have any
>> crocks
>
>How would you distinguish a crock from a pot?

They're very different to me. A pot is made out of metal (usually
stainless steel or aluminum, these days) and is used for cooking. A
crock is ceramic, and is used for storing something, not cooking it.

>It's not just that crock is not in your active vocabulary?

No, it's not that,

[Ken Blake]

I would neither call it a crock nor a pot,

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:14:44 +0000, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:

>On 24-Nov-22 8:31, occam wrote:
>> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously unrecognised
>> Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This discovery comes from
>> 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th century, but hitherto ignored
>> as fakes.
>>
>> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?
>>
>> Of the several definitions of crock, none are very flattering.
>> 1-'nonsense' (e.g he talking a load of crock); 2- a decrepit person
>> (old crock); 3- a baked clay jar; 4- a black amorphous substance of coal.
>>
>> For what is one of the most valued metals on Earth, surely 'crock' is an
>> odd noun to associate with gold.
>

>I don't understand the question. "Crock" describes the container, not
>the content.
>Would a "wallet" full of credit cards say anything meaningful about the
>cards?


It says something about the number of them.

[Bebercito]

Le vendredi 25 novembre 2022 à 05:28:52 UTC+1, benl...@ihug.co.nz a écrit :
> On 25/11/2022 2:26 p.m., Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 25/11/22 03:48, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> On 2022-11-24, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >
> >>> I've heard "cache" meaning "hiding place" pronounced as if it were
> >>> "cachet". I also recently heard it pronounce as one syllable with
> >>> the FACE vowel.
> >>
> >> "Cache" is pronounced with the FACE vowel in AusE. (So are
> >> "geocache" and its derivatives.) I started a thread about that last
> >> year after I heard it on podcast.
> >
> > I've heard some Australians pronounce it with the FACE vowel, but I'm
> > not convinced that that's the majority AusE pronunciation.
> >
> > It could be age-related.
> >
> Looking back at the discussion in question, it appears that AusEng and
> NZEng dictionaries agree that it has the FACE vowel _only_ in the
> computing sense. Where could that have come from?

Coincidentally (or not?), one form of the French verb "cacher" (to hide),
which English "cache" is apparently derived from, was "quaichier" in Old
French, where the FACE vowel was likely used.

[Bebercito]

I'd take the phrase to mean "stash of narcotics", so that saving it would
make sense.

> >>>
> >>>> I have never heard of the expression 'a cache of shit' before. I fail
> >>>> to see the educational point of this juxtaposition, apart from the
> >>>> fun of pun. (I am having breakfast, so not very appetising.)
> >>>
> >>> I have recently heard that word - twice - pronounced "cashay" [k&'Se]: a
> >>> pronunciation of low prestige and litle appeal.
> >>>
> >> You give no context. However there is a word 'cachet' which is
> >> pronounced that way, which means something else.
> >
> > I've heard "cache" meaning "hiding place" pronounced as if it were
> > "cachet". I also recently heard it pronounce as one syllable with the
> > FACE vowel.
> >
> The French for hide and seek (as in 'hiding place') is cache-cache. It
> is pronounced 'cash-cash'. I suspect the origin of 'cache' is the French
> verb 'cacher' (to hide, 'cash-ay').

Yes, as confirmed by M-W.

[Sam Plusnet]

On 25-Nov-22 17:40, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:02:57 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
> <news2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Den 24-11-2022 kl. 16:12 skrev Ken Blake:
>>> All the pots in my house have lids. I don't think I have any
>>> crocks
>>
>> How would you distinguish a crock from a pot?
>
> They're very different to me. A pot is made out of metal (usually
> stainless steel or aluminum, these days) and is used for cooking.

Should a potter (or a pottery) be allowed to describe some of their
wares as "pots"?
Would you think that misleading?

--
Sam Plusnet

[lar3ryca]

If I saw something like that, I would call it a casserole, and would use
it for baking a dish called a casserole. I heard ut that way when I was
a child, and often when I was a member of a potter's guild.

--
Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow.
–Mark Twain

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 25-11-2022 kl. 18:40 skrev Ken Blake:
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:02:57 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
> <news2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Den 24-11-2022 kl. 16:12 skrev Ken Blake:
>>> All the pots in my house have lids. I don't think I have any
>>> crocks
>>
>> How would you distinguish a crock from a pot?
>
> They're very different to me. A pot is made out of metal (usually
> stainless steel or aluminum, these days) and is used for cooking. A
> crock is ceramic, and is used for storing something, not cooking it.

Ah, sorry - too much of the context got lost, apparently.

I was thinking about the difference between "pot" as in pottery,
and "crock" as in crockery.

You seem to be talking about a different sense of "pot".

/Anders, Denmark

[Snidely]

Thursday, Peter Moylan observed:
> On 24/11/22 20:54, occam wrote:
>> On 24/11/2022 10:20, Peter Moylan wrote:

>>> On 24/11/22 19:31, occam wrote:

>>>> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously
>>>> unrecognised Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This
>>>> discovery comes from 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th
>>>> century, but hitherto ignored as fakes.
>>>>
>>>> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?
>>>>
>>>> Of the several definitions of crock, none are very flattering.
>>>> 1-'nonsense' (e.g he talking a load of crock); 2- a decrepit
>>>> person (old crock); 3- a baked clay jar; 4- a black amorphous
>>>> substance of coal.
>>>>
>>>> For what is one of the most valued metals on Earth, surely
>>>> 'crock' is an odd noun to associate with gold.
>>>

>>> Your number 3 (the crockery meaning) is the original meaning, and
>>> as far as I know was the sole meaning until the 19th century. The
>>> derogatory meanings 1 and 2 apparently come from focusing on a
>>> particular kind of crock, a chamber pot.

I'd suggest def2 comes from the appearance of a crock thats been used
for many years, even in the wholesomeness of a kitchen. But see below.

>>> I don't know where number 4 comes from, and I suspect it's an
>>> entirely different word that ended up with the same spelling and
>>> pronunciation.
>>
>> See definition (3), and later as 'Smudge'.
>>
>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/crock
>
> Unfortunately merriam-webster.com is a site that crashes my web browser,

Mine finds this at the link:

1: a thick earthenware pot or jar
2[from its formation on cooking pots] dialect : SOOT, SMUT
3: coloring matter that rubs off from cloth or dyed leather
4: BUNKUM —usually used with "a"
the story in the paper is a crock

> but I can find other web sites that say "crock" is a synonym of "soot".
> What I can't find is an origin for that meaning.

The excerpt above suggests an origin.

> Etymonline says "But
> there were other uses of crock, of uncertain relationship", which of
> course is a way of saying "we don't know".

transitive verb

1
: to put or preserve in a crock
2
dialect : to soil with crock : SMUDGE
intransitive verb

: to transfer color (as when rubbed or washed)
a suede that will not crock

Noun (1)

Middle English, from Old English crocc; akin to Old English crūce pot,
pitcher, Middle High German krūche

Noun (2)

Middle English crok; akin to Low German krakke broken-down horse

crock

3 of 4
noun (2)
1: one that is broken-down, disabled, or impaired
so many old … crocks with one foot in the grave
Angus Wilson
2 slang : a complaining medical patient whose illness is largely
imaginary or psychosomatic


/dps

--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean

[Peter Moylan]

I have a casserole dish, but it's not crockery. Instead, it's made of Pyrex.

Interesting drift of terminology, by the way. The primary meaning of
"casserole" in French is probably "saucepan", although it also has
broader meanings.

[Peter Moylan]

On 26/11/22 04:40, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:02:57 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
> <news2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Den 24-11-2022 kl. 16:12 skrev Ken Blake:
>>> All the pots in my house have lids. I don't think I have any
>>> crocks
>>
>> How would you distinguish a crock from a pot?
>
> They're very different to me. A pot is made out of metal (usually
> stainless steel or aluminum, these days) and is used for cooking. A
> crock is ceramic, and is used for storing something, not cooking it.

While to me the primary use of a crock is for cooking.

[Joy Beeson]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:31:37 +1100, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> The older form of
> slow cooking used a genuine crockery crock that one put in the oven. The
> makers of the electric version have taken advantage of people who
> vaguely associate "crock" with cooking, but aren't sure why.

My crock pot has a ceramic liner that can be lifted out for cleaning.
It looks very much like a miniature of the crock my mother made
sauerkraut in. But her crocks didn't have ears to lift them out of
the cooker by. I think maybe there were handle-dents under the rim,
but it would take a very strong person to use them.

The lid of my crock-pot is glass.

-------------

In response to a later post, to me a "crock" is invariably a cylinder,
and invariably earthenware or other ceramic. I wouldn't think of a
crock as something to put into an oven or over a fire -- hence the
need to modify "crock" with "pot" when electric slow cookers came
along: a crock-shaped cooking pot.

I don't recall whether Mom's crocks had lids, but I know what an
earthenware crock lid looks like. I do remember her using a large
plate to keep the pickles under the brine -- and I do the same
(smaller plate, plain brine) when I make her bread-and-butter pickles
in a stainless-steel bowl. (I never saw her making bread-and-butter
pickles, so I don't know what sort of bowl she used for the brine
soak, but I have her hand-written recipe -- and it's grrrreat!)

Bread-and-butter pickles are really vegetables preserved in vinegar
syrup, and are made in batches too small to ferment.

I have seen stainless-steel stock pots big enough to use as pickling
crocks.

--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at centurylink dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 24/11/2022 8:31 am, occam wrote:
> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously unrecognised
> Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This discovery comes from
> 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th century, but hitherto ignored
> as fakes.
>
> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?

Not exactly. It refers to the container in which leprechauns
habitually bury their gold at the end of the rainbow.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 26.11.2022 kl. 02.03 skrev Peter Moylan:

> Interesting drift of terminology, by the way. The primary meaning of
> "casserole" in French is probably "saucepan", although it also has
> broader meanings.

Danish has taken the word and changed into Danish: kasserolle. It means
a specific kind of pot. It may or may not have a lid.

Picture:
https://i.otto.de/i/otto/16806282/kitchenaid-kasserolle-mit-deckel-aluminium-induktion-schwarz.jpg

--
Bertel

[Peter Moylan]

OK. That one I would definitely call a saucepan in English, but a
casserole in French.

[Hibou]

Le 24/11/2022 à 08:49, occam a écrit :
>
> 'A cache of gold' sounds a far better description than a 'crock of gold'.

A cache of cash sounds a sovereign idea.

[Ken Blake]

I know nothing about what it would be called in French, but I would
either call it a saucepan or a pot. I'd actually be more likely to
call it a pot.

To me a casserole is typically wider and perhaps not so deep. And
casseroles never (seldom?) have handles like that.

[Sam Plusnet]

To coin a phrase.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Paul Wolff]

On Fri, 25 Nov 2022, at 23:11:57, Joy Beeson posted:

>
>In response to a later post, to me a "crock" is invariably a cylinder,
>and invariably earthenware or other ceramic. I wouldn't think of a
>crock as something to put into an oven or over a fire -- hence the
>need to modify "crock" with "pot" when electric slow cookers came
>along: a crock-shaped cooking pot.
>
>I don't recall whether Mom's crocks had lids, but I know what an
>earthenware crock lid looks like. I do remember her using a large
>plate to keep the pickles under the brine -- and I do the same
>(smaller plate, plain brine) when I make her bread-and-butter pickles
>in a stainless-steel bowl. (I never saw her making bread-and-butter
>pickles, so I don't know what sort of bowl she used for the brine
>soak, but I have her hand-written recipe -- and it's grrrreat!)
>
>Bread-and-butter pickles are really vegetables preserved in vinegar
>syrup, and are made in batches too small to ferment.
>

O Joy! O rapture! I have a mystery jar in my fridge labelled 'BREAD and
BUTTER PICKLES'. That made absolutely no sense to me, because it
contains not bread, not butter, but (according to the label) gherkins,
silverskin onions and jalapenos pickled in sweet cider vinegar - plus a
few secondary ingredients. Is this 'bread and butter pickles' a real
thing somewhere? What are its limits? Vegetables in vinegar syrup
doesn't seem quite definitive enough. Until I read Joy's post, I thought
it meant just 'common or garden', which is a pretty good alternative to
'bread and butter' in British English.
--
Paul W

[Sam Plusnet]

On 26-Nov-22 7:24, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 24/11/2022 8:31 am, occam wrote:
>> There is a BBC news item today referring to a previously unrecognised
>> Roman leader (Sponsianus) cir. third century. This discovery comes from
>> 'a crock of' gold coins found in the 18th century, but hitherto ignored
>> as fakes.
>>
>> Is 'crock' the official collective noun for gold?
>
> Not exactly. It refers to the container in which leprechauns habitually
> bury their gold at the end of the rainbow.

It sounds like there are great opportunities for any bank which is
prepared to offer accounts which are attractive to the small saver.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 26 Nov 2022 21:02:03 +0000, Paul Wolff
<boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

>On Fri, 25 Nov 2022, at 23:11:57, Joy Beeson posted:
>>
>>In response to a later post, to me a "crock" is invariably a cylinder,
>>and invariably earthenware or other ceramic. I wouldn't think of a
>>crock as something to put into an oven or over a fire -- hence the
>>need to modify "crock" with "pot" when electric slow cookers came
>>along: a crock-shaped cooking pot.
>>
>>I don't recall whether Mom's crocks had lids, but I know what an
>>earthenware crock lid looks like. I do remember her using a large
>>plate to keep the pickles under the brine -- and I do the same
>>(smaller plate, plain brine) when I make her bread-and-butter pickles
>>in a stainless-steel bowl. (I never saw her making bread-and-butter
>>pickles, so I don't know what sort of bowl she used for the brine
>>soak, but I have her hand-written recipe -- and it's grrrreat!)
>>
>>Bread-and-butter pickles are really vegetables preserved in vinegar
>>syrup, and are made in batches too small to ferment.
>>
>O Joy! O rapture! I have a mystery jar in my fridge labelled 'BREAD and
>BUTTER PICKLES'. That made absolutely no sense to me, because it
>contains not bread, not butter, but (according to the label) gherkins,
>silverskin onions and jalapenos pickled in sweet cider vinegar - plus a
>few secondary ingredients. Is this 'bread and butter pickles' a real
>thing somewhere?

Bread and Butter pickles are on the shelf of every supermarket/grocery
store I've ever been to. They are a "sweet" pickle and often served
on the side with a sandwich.

They are one of the most common type of pickle found in the
refrigerator of American homes. They are cut "chip shape" rather than
long-wise as a dill pickle might be cut.

In this image, you can see the shape:
https://www.mtolivepickles.com/pickle-products/real-sugar-bread-butter-chips/

> What are its limits? Vegetables in vinegar syrup
>doesn't seem quite definitive enough. Until I read Joy's post, I thought
>it meant just 'common or garden', which is a pretty good alternative to
>'bread and butter' in British English.

That's as good a guess as any as to why they are called Bread and
Butter Pickles. A "bread and butter" letter or note to someone
thanking them for something is an informal missive. Nothing fancy,
just a common, garden-variety, note.
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[Paul Wolff]

On Sat, 26 Nov 2022, at 16:45:00, Tony Cooper posted:

To me, a bread-and-butter letter is a thank-you for hospitality. I'm not
sure that it's required after simply an informal meal, but it's
essential etiquette after an overnight or longer stay in someone's home.
--
Paul W

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-11-25 22:11, Joy Beeson wrote:
> Bread-and-butter pickles are really vegetables preserved in vinegar
> syrup, and are made in batches too small to ferment.

To my mind, 'vegetables' is too all-encompassing to describe what
'bread-and-butter' pickles are.

Cucumbers, sliced to make discs, pickled in sweet vinegar, and with the
optional addition of small onions, are all that should be included.

On a related not, I was grocery shopping and in the pickles aisle, a
woman was looking at the selection, and asked, possibly rhetorically,
"Don't they make ordinary pickles any more?"

Curious, I asked her what she considered 'ordinary pickles' and she
responded, "You know, with cauliflower, carrots, green beans, onions,
and so on."

As it turned out, they had those, but on a top shelf, and she hadn't
seen them. The jar said they were, unsurprisingly, 'pickled vegetables

> I have seen stainless-steel stock pots big enough to use as pickling
> crocks.

--

“The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will
insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.”
—Terry Pratchett

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 26 Nov 2022 21:44:04 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:

>On 2022-11-25 22:11, Joy Beeson wrote:
>> Bread-and-butter pickles are really vegetables preserved in vinegar
>> syrup, and are made in batches too small to ferment.
>
>To my mind, 'vegetables' is too all-encompassing to describe what
>'bread-and-butter' pickles are.
>
>Cucumbers, sliced to make discs, pickled in sweet vinegar, and with the
>optional addition of small onions, are all that should be included.
>
>On a related not, I was grocery shopping and in the pickles aisle, a
>woman was looking at the selection, and asked, possibly rhetorically,
>"Don't they make ordinary pickles any more?"
>
>Curious, I asked her what she considered 'ordinary pickles' and she
>responded, "You know, with cauliflower, carrots, green beans, onions,
>and so on."

Pickled cauliflower is a favorite snack in this house, but my wife
buys cauliflower heads, breaks off "flowers", and pickles them.
There's some in the refridgerator now.

>
>As it turned out, they had those, but on a top shelf, and she hadn't
>seen them. The jar said they were, unsurprisingly, 'pickled vegetables
>
>> I have seen stainless-steel stock pots big enough to use as pickling
>> crocks.
--

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 26.11.2022 kl. 22.45 skrev Tony Cooper:

> Bread and Butter pickles are on the shelf of every supermarket/grocery
> store I've ever been to. They are a "sweet" pickle and often served
> on the side with a sandwich.
>
> They are one of the most common type of pickle found in the
> refrigerator of American homes. They are cut "chip shape" rather than
> long-wise as a dill pickle might be cut.

The glass looks like what we in Denmark call "agurkesalat" (cucumber
salad), only we chip them thinner. We have another kind chipped like the
photo but they are in non-sweetened vinegar.

What I call pickles looks like this:

https://cdn.danishthings.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/IMG_7999-2_1-600x400.jpg

--
Bertel

[Jerry Friedman]

On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 12:10:53 AM UTC-7, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Den 26.11.2022 kl. 22.45 skrev Tony Cooper:
>
> > Bread and Butter pickles are on the shelf of every supermarket/grocery
> > store I've ever been to. They are a "sweet" pickle and often served
> > on the side with a sandwich.
> >
> > They are one of the most common type of pickle found in the
> > refrigerator of American homes. They are cut "chip shape" rather than
> > long-wise as a dill pickle might be cut.

> The glass

I think you mean "jar".

> looks like what we in Denmark call "agurkesalat" (cucumber
> salad), only we chip them thinner. We have another kind chipped like the
> photo but they are in non-sweetened vinegar.

As far as I know, the verb has to be "slice", or as Tony says, "cut".

Using "chips" to mean sliced pickles or anything flexible seems strange to
me, but people do it, including manufacturers.

> What I call pickles looks like this:
>
> https://cdn.danishthings.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/IMG_7999-2_1-600x400.jpg

Looks like the kind of thing I call "relish" (and don't relish).

--
Jerry Friedman

[CDB]

On 11/26/2022 4:45 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:

WIWAL I liked to put them in a peanut-butter sandwich.

[Mack A. Damia]

Yes, they are good on sandwiches. Try a mild pickled jalapeno pepper
slice for a nice change,

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-11-25, Bebercito wrote:

> Le vendredi 25 novembre 2022 à 05:28:52 UTC+1, benl...@ihug.co.nz a écrit :
>> On 25/11/2022 2:26 p.m., Peter Moylan wrote:
>> > On 25/11/22 03:48, Adam Funk wrote:
>> >> On 2022-11-24, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> >
>> >>> I've heard "cache" meaning "hiding place" pronounced as if it were
>> >>> "cachet". I also recently heard it pronounce as one syllable with
>> >>> the FACE vowel.
>> >>
>> >> "Cache" is pronounced with the FACE vowel in AusE. (So are
>> >> "geocache" and its derivatives.) I started a thread about that last
>> >> year after I heard it on podcast.
>> >
>> > I've heard some Australians pronounce it with the FACE vowel, but I'm
>> > not convinced that that's the majority AusE pronunciation.
>> >
>> > It could be age-related.
>> >
>> Looking back at the discussion in question, it appears that AusEng and
>> NZEng dictionaries agree that it has the FACE vowel _only_ in the
>> computing sense. Where could that have come from?
>
> Coincidentally (or not?), one form of the French verb "cacher" (to hide),
> which English "cache" is apparently derived from, was "quaichier" in Old
> French, where the FACE vowel was likely used.

Interesting.

>> I haven't seen any
>> evidence of its use in AmEng. All I could suggest was a spelling
>> pronunciation by people unfamiliar with the other senses -- at least not
>> by ear, where they would have heard the TRAP vowel.

--
Telekinetic, dynamite
Psychic warfare is real
You better believe me brother
X-ray vision

[Adam Funk]

I'd expect the primary use of a crock to be fermenting vegetables
(e.g., sauerkraut) or storage.

The AmE crock pot (BrE slow cooker) is for cooking, but the inner part
is ceramic.


--
We know he [Larry Walters] broke some part of the Federal Aviation
Act, and as soon as we decide which part it is, some type of charge
will be filed. If he had a pilot's license, we'd suspend that, but
he doesn't. ---Neal Savoy

[lar3ryca]

They look almost like what I would call 'mustard pickles'.

TO me, 'relish' is more finely chopped.

--
Now, for my younger viewers out there, a book is something we used to
have before the internet. It’s sort of a blog for people with attention
spans.
- Stephen Colbert

[Jerry Friedman]

On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 10:16:56 AM UTC-7, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2022-11-27 08:31, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 12:10:53 AM UTC-7, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:

...

> >> What I call pickles looks like this:
> >>
> >> https://cdn.danishthings.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/IMG_7999-2_1-600x400.jpg
> >
> > Looks like the kind of thing I call "relish" (and don't relish).

> They look almost like what I would call 'mustard pickles'.
>
> TO me, 'relish' is more finely chopped.

I won't argue. I seldom eat such things, so I don't know.

--
Jerry Friedman