Black mans pinch

[Bod]

Does anyone know the origin of this term!

[Don Phillipson]

"Bod" <bodr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bs3kph...@mid.individual.net...

> Does anyone know the origin of this term!

When asking a question like this, we should also provide
the context, whether the quoted words were read or heard
(in speech), and providing the source, e.g. bibliographic
details or (for speech) the social occasion (e.g. family
conversation, political oration, overheard in a football crowd etc.)
Secondly, we can understand a complete sentence (if there was
one) better than a selected noun or verb by itself.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Bod]

Erm! the term is a standard and well used colloquial term to describe
the formation of a blood blister after getting ones flesh pinched.

[musika]

Never heard of it.

--
Ray
UK

[Leslie Danks]

I've never met it. Whence come ye?

--
Leslie (Les) Danks (BrE)
Mama, don't let your babies grow up to be chemists.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, April 27, 2014 2:20:42 PM UTC-4, Bod wrote:
> > "Bod" <bodr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:bs3kph...@mid.individual.net...

> >> Does anyone know the origin of this term!
>

> Erm! the term is a standard and well used colloquial term to describe
> the formation of a blood blister after getting ones flesh pinched.

Where is it standard and well-used?

[Bod]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=black%20man%27s%20pinch

[Bod]

Explanation in this link:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=black%20man%27s%20pinch

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 27 Apr 2014 19:36:08 +0100, musika <mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com>
wrote:

Never heard of this "standard" term.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Tony Cooper]

That explains that "McCirick's unlucky Laundress" knew about a phrase
used in the 1970s and posted it in the Urban Dictionary. That does
not establish it as "standard" or "well used" phrase.

If you look to the left of that definition, there's a whole laundry
list of phrases that can be found in the Urban Dictionary that start
with "black". Some are standard, some are well-known, and some seem
to be one-off uses that someone entered.

The bone of contention here is "standard", not that it exists at all.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Moreover, the made-up dialog she invented contradicts her claim that
"white kids in the 1970s" said it, since in her invented dialog, it
is "adult" who says it and "child" who objects.

The bone of contention is more "well-used" than "standard," since
plenty of non-standard expressions are well-used.

[Harrison Hill]

On Sunday, 27 April 2014 07:01:22 UTC+1, Bod wrote:
> Does anyone know the origin of this term!

It is "standard and well used" in the Cockney/Estuary dialect my wife uses, and means what I would call a "blood blister".

[Mike L]

I remember it well enough as an ordinary Brit colloquialism, though
not before maybe 1970s. OED hasn't got it, and I did a quick search to
see if it had "nigger['s] pinch"*, but that wasn't there, either.

*OK, you Bowdlerizers: rewrite that without using the word.

--
Mike.

[Skitt]

On 4/27/2014 11:36 AM, musika wrote:
> On 27/04/2014 19:20, Bod wrote:
>> On 27/04/2014 18:49, Don Phillipson wrote:

>>> "Bod" wrote:

>>>> Does anyone know the origin of this term!
>>>
>>> When asking a question like this, we should also provide
>>> the context, whether the quoted words were read or heard
>>> (in speech), and providing the source, e.g. bibliographic
>>> details or (for speech) the social occasion (e.g. family
>>> conversation, political oration, overheard in a football crowd etc.)
>>> Secondly, we can understand a complete sentence (if there was
>>> one) better than a selected noun or verb by itself.
>>
>> Erm! the term is a standard and well used colloquial term to describe
>> the formation of a blood blister after getting ones flesh pinched.
>
> Never heard of it.
>

Me neither.

--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://home.comcast.net/~skitt99/main.html

[Mack A. Damia]

I read that the term is common in the Bristol area. Also, that it
appeared in the 1970s (considered "old") although I read the 1950s,
too. On re-checking, it does seem to be more of an English term.

--

[Peter Moylan]

On 27/04/14 16:01, Bod wrote:

> Does anyone know the origin of this term!

What term?

Oh, you mean the one in the Subject: line. Never heard of it.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 4/27/14 4:48 PM, Mike L wrote:

[black man's pinch]

> I remember it well enough as an ordinary Brit colloquialism, though
> not before maybe 1970s. OED hasn't got it, and I did a quick search to
> see if it had "nigger['s] pinch"*, but that wasn't there, either.
>
> *OK, you Bowdlerizers: rewrite that without using the word.

Here's one from 1967 (Boris Vian, /Froth on the Daydream/):

http://books.google.com/books?id=yQ2SAAAAIAAJ&q=%22black+man%27s+pinch%22&dq=%22black+man%27s+pinch%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rdZdU67yKefZ2wX3w4CYCA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ

http://tinyurl.com/kt87mko

"Oh, sod the existential horror!" is a phrase that may come in handy for
many of us.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Bod]

Correct, Sir.

[CDB]

On 27/04/2014 6:48 PM, Mike L wrote:
> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Bod <bodr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> Bod wrote:

>>>>>> "Bod" <bodr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>>>>>>> Does anyone know the origin of this term!

>>>>> Erm! the term is a standard and well used colloquial term to
>>>>> describe the formation of a blood blister after getting ones
>>>>> flesh pinched.

>>>> Where is it standard and well-used?

>>> Explanation in this link:
>>> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=black%20man%27s%20pinch

>> That explains that "McCirick's unlucky Laundress" knew about a phrase
>> used in the 1970s and posted it in the Urban Dictionary. That
>> does not establish it as "standard" or "well used" phrase.

>> If you look to the left of that definition, there's a whole
>> laundry list of phrases that can be found in the Urban Dictionary
>> that start with "black". Some are standard, some are well-known,
>> and some seem to be one-off uses that someone entered.

>> The bone of contention here is "standard", not that it exists at
>> all.

> I remember it well enough as an ordinary Brit colloquialism, though
> not before maybe 1970s. OED hasn't got it, and I did a quick search
> to see if it had "nigger['s] pinch"*, but that wasn't there, either.

> *OK, you Bowdlerizers: rewrite that without using the word.

"Ground zero for the N-bomb"?

If the expression is old (and Harrison says it is standard in CocknE),
one could speculate that the "Black Man" was originally the Devil.
Devil's pinch.

[Katy Jennison]

Really? I'd never heard of it.

--
Katy Jennison

[Ross]

Forgot to write down the original, but I think it was something like
"bougre de néant!"

Actually I was looking at the original (L'Ecume des Jours, 1963)
to see whether French might hold a clue to the origins of the
"black man's pinch" phrase. But no:

"Je vais avoir l'ongle tout noir." is all it says.

[access...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, 27 April 2014 07:01:22 UTC+1, Bod wrote:

> Does anyone know the origin of this term!

It's a reference to a Blacksmith who works in a forge working with Hammers and iron.

[CDB]

On 02/01/2015 8:47 AM, access...@gmail.com wrote:
> Bod wrote:

[Black man's pinch]

>> Does anyone know the origin of this term!

> It's a reference to a Blacksmith who works in a forge working with
> Hammers and iron.

It seems to be used for "blood blister"; there are googlehits that claim
the phrase is racist, but I'd be surprised to learn that the pincher
wasn't originally "the Black Man", the Devil.

[Mike L]

Moi aussi.

--
Mike.

[micky]

On Fri, 02 Jan 2015 09:29:08 -0500, CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:

"But"? You're making their point, not contradicting it. if the
Devil was called the Black Man, that's either racist or close to it.
With very few exceptions, every black is bad and everything white is
good.

Even if we say that this came before white people knew black people, it
still continues to feed the thoughts in white people including children
that blacks have something wrong with them.

Posted and mailed because it's been, oh, only 4 days, but the group is
busy and even that is a lot.

--
Please say where you live, or what
area's English you are asking about.
So your question or answer makes sense.
. .
I have lived all my life in the USA,
Western Pa. Indianapolis, Chicago,
Brooklyn, Baltimore.

[CDB]

On 06/01/2015 2:22 AM, micky wrote:

> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> access...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Bod wrote:

>> [Black man's pinch]

>>>> Does anyone know the origin of this term!

>>> It's a reference to a Blacksmith who works in a forge working
>>> with Hammers and iron.

>> It seems to be used for "blood blister"; there are googlehits that
>> claim the phrase is racist, but I'd be surprised to learn that the
>> pincher wasn't originally "the Black Man", the Devil.

> "But"? You're making their point, not contradicting it. if the
> Devil was called the Black Man, that's either racist or close to it.
> With very few exceptions, every black is bad and everything white is
> good.

The reasons for that may go very deep, back to the harsh conditions that
forced our ancestors to become white; I don't think they were racist to
begin with. The Nut-Brown Maid was more likely to have scurvy (and die
in childbirth) than Fair Annie.

> Even if we say that this came before white people knew black people,
> it still continues to feed the thoughts in white people including
> children that blacks have something wrong with them.

I think it's misleading to put too much emphasis on colour. The use of
"Black" to mean "belonging to a genetically-diverse group of people with
recent origins in Africa, who share certain gross physical traits,
usually including a concentration of melanin in the skin greater than
that achieved by the average Dane or Irishman" encourages the
literal-minded to think of the problem as one of discrimination based on
skin-shade, when it is much broader than that.

"'Black' people" aren't black, but The Black Man was as black as soot.

> Posted and mailed because it's been, oh, only 4 days, but the group
> is busy and even that is a lot.

I got your email, thank you.

[Mike L]

I agree. I think our pejorative connotation of "black" is probably
based on our human fear of the night. "He looked as black as thunder"
doesn't seem to have any ethnic vibe at all.

--
Mike.

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-04-29, Ross wrote:

> On Monday, April 28, 2014 4:42:20 PM UTC+12, Jerry Friedman wrote:

>> Here's one from 1967 (Boris Vian, /Froth on the Daydream/):
>
>> http://books.google.com/books?id=yQ2SAAAAIAAJ&q=%22black+man%27s+pinch%22&dq=%22black+man%27s+pinch%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rdZdU67yKefZ2wX3w4CYCA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/kt87mko
>>
>> "Oh, sod the existential horror!" is a phrase that may come in handy for
>> many of us.
>
> Forgot to write down the original, but I think it was something like
> "bougre de néant!"
>
> Actually I was looking at the original (L'Ecume des Jours, 1963)

I was going to object that Vian wrote in French, but you beat me to
it...

> to see whether French might hold a clue to the origins of the
> "black man's pinch" phrase. But no:
>
> "Je vais avoir l'ongle tout noir." is all it says.

There you go, it says «noir».


--
Carrots continue to suffer from the jibes of people who like to
dispense what H. W. Fowler called "worn-out humor."
--- Joy of Cooking 1975

[Adam Funk]

"Blood blister" is (IME) normal BrE. I don't think I've ever heard
"black man's pinch", although I vaguely recall reading it somewhere.


--
I have a natural revulsion to any operating system that shows so
little planning as to have to named all of its commands after
digestive noises (awk, grep, fsck, nroff).
[The UNIX-HATERS Handbook]

[Adam Funk]

The Urban Dictionary is not reliable!

[David Kleinecke]

In the Qur'an and the Hadith literature a really intense fear of
the night is frequently expressed - beyond what I see in other
cultures. This seems odd to me because travelling at night was
very common. But at home they want to be locked (? I have no ideas
about their lock techniques) up firmly to avoid night demons.

I don't think this is typical of modern Muslims 1300 years later.

[Adam Funk]

Is "the pot calling the kettle black" racist, as some people claim?
(Yes, I know that cast iron cookware is black or very dark grey.)


--
Master Foo said: "A man who mistakes secrets for knowledge is like
a man who, seeking light, hugs a candle so closely that he smothers
it and burns his hand." --- Eric Raymond

[the Omrud]

On 08/01/2015 10:40, Adam Funk wrote:

> Is "the pot calling the kettle black" racist, as some people claim?
> (Yes, I know that cast iron cookware is black or very dark grey.)

Not from my PoV. It's about a colour, not an ethnicity (yes, I know
that black is not strictly a colour).

--
David

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

In some varieties of Christianity white is the colout of virtue and
black is that of evil. There is the idea of the soul as a record of
behaviour. A virtuous person would have a white soul and a sinful person
a black soul. White is clean; black is dirty,

Also angels are depicted as white in white clothing and evil beings such
as Satan as dark in black clothing.

I've heard it said that in the past in Ireland the phrase "a black
woman" was used to describe a woman who was considered sinful. It was
not a reference to the colour of skin, hair or any other part of the
woman's body.

The phrase "black man" might have been used in the same way, but I never
met any mention of it.

The OED doesn't have "black woman" in the sense above. For "black man"
it has:

2. regional and colloq. An evil spirit; the devil. Also: a bogeyman
invoked to frighten children.



--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Thu, 08 Jan 2015 11:34:47 +0000, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Ditto. I've always assumed that the blackness of the pot and kettle
comes from the days when they were heated over open fires and would
become black from soot.

[Adam Funk]

On 2015-01-08, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

> On Wed, 07 Jan 2015 22:10:59 +0000, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>>I agree. I think our pejorative connotation of "black" is probably
>>based on our human fear of the night. "He looked as black as thunder"
>>doesn't seem to have any ethnic vibe at all.
>
> In some varieties of Christianity white is the colout of virtue and
> black is that of evil. There is the idea of the soul as a record of
> behaviour. A virtuous person would have a white soul and a sinful person
> a black soul. White is clean; black is dirty,
>
> Also angels are depicted as white in white clothing and evil beings such
> as Satan as dark in black clothing.

"black mass", "black sabbath" [1], "black magic" vs "white magic"

[1] From an interview with Ozzy Osbourne (in _Rolling Stone_ in 2002,
I think):

Q. Were you guys interested in black magic? Even a little bit?

A. We couldn’t conjure up a fart. We’d get invitations to play
witches’ conventions and Black Masses in Highgate Cemetery. I
honestly thought it was a joke. We were the last hippie band – we
were into peace.


--
Our function calls do not have parameters --- they have
arguments --- and they always win them.
--- Klingon Programmer's Guide

[Adam Funk]

I agree, but I've heard people tell other people not to say it!


--
Slade was the coolest band in England. They were the kind of guys
that would push your car out of a ditch. --- Alice Cooper

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Thu, 08 Jan 2015 16:27:25 +0000, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

>On 2015-01-08, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 07 Jan 2015 22:10:59 +0000, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>I agree. I think our pejorative connotation of "black" is probably
>>>based on our human fear of the night. "He looked as black as thunder"
>>>doesn't seem to have any ethnic vibe at all.
>>
>> In some varieties of Christianity white is the colout of virtue and
>> black is that of evil. There is the idea of the soul as a record of
>> behaviour. A virtuous person would have a white soul and a sinful person
>> a black soul. White is clean; black is dirty,
>>
>> Also angels are depicted as white in white clothing and evil beings such
>> as Satan as dark in black clothing.
>
>"black mass", "black sabbath" [1], "black magic" vs "white magic"
>
>[1] From an interview with Ozzy Osbourne (in _Rolling Stone_ in 2002,
> I think):
>
> Q. Were you guys interested in black magic? Even a little bit?
>
> A. We couldn’t conjure up a fart. We’d get invitations to play
> witches’ conventions and Black Masses in Highgate Cemetery. I
> honestly thought it was a joke. We were the last hippie band – we
> were into peace.

Just to confuse things, the "Black Santa" who conducts an annual
charitable collection in Belfast ending on Christmas Eve is a good man
not an evil one.
http://www.belfastcathedral.org/black-santa/

[Jerry Friedman]

On Tuesday, January 6, 2015 at 10:23:18 AM UTC-7, CDB wrote:
> On 06/01/2015 2:22 AM, micky wrote:
> > CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> access...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> Bod wrote:
>
> >> [Black man's pinch]
>
> >>>> Does anyone know the origin of this term!
>
> >>> It's a reference to a Blacksmith who works in a forge working
> >>> with Hammers and iron.
>
> >> It seems to be used for "blood blister"; there are googlehits that
> >> claim the phrase is racist, but I'd be surprised to learn that the
> >> pincher wasn't originally "the Black Man", the Devil.
>
> > "But"? You're making their point, not contradicting it. if the
> > Devil was called the Black Man, that's either racist or close to it.
> > With very few exceptions, every black is bad and everything white is
> > good.
>
> The reasons for that may go very deep, back to the harsh conditions that
> forced our ancestors to become white; I don't think they were racist to
> begin with. The Nut-Brown Maid was more likely to have scurvy (and die
> in childbirth) than Fair Annie.

...

I think you mean rickets, not scurvy.

Nothing /forced/ our ancestors to become white, since people living in
the same latitudes in North America.

You seem to be suggesting that people knew at some level that light-
skinned people were less likely to get rickets. Is there any evidence
of that?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Adam Funk]

On 2015-01-08, Lewis wrote:

> Okay, so one time? In band camp? Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> was all, like:

>> On 2015-01-08, the Omrud wrote:
>
>>> On 08/01/2015 10:40, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is "the pot calling the kettle black" racist, as some people claim?
>>>> (Yes, I know that cast iron cookware is black or very dark grey.)
>>>
>>> Not from my PoV. It's about a colour, not an ethnicity (yes, I know
>>> that black is not strictly a colour).
>
>> I agree, but I've heard people tell other people not to say it!
>

> Yes, and some ignorant people insist that picnic is racist as well.

Huh?

> I ignore such people.

Well, one can try.


--
It is probable that television drama of high caliber and produced by
first-rate artists will materially raise the level of dramatic taste
of the nation. (David Sarnoff, CEO of RCA, 1939; in Stoll 1995)

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 08 Jan 2015 21:30:20 +0000, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

>On 2015-01-08, Lewis wrote:
>
>> Okay, so one time? In band camp? Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> was all, like:
>>> On 2015-01-08, the Omrud wrote:
>>
>>>> On 08/01/2015 10:40, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is "the pot calling the kettle black" racist, as some people claim?
>>>>> (Yes, I know that cast iron cookware is black or very dark grey.)
>>>>
>>>> Not from my PoV. It's about a colour, not an ethnicity (yes, I know
>>>> that black is not strictly a colour).
>>
>>> I agree, but I've heard people tell other people not to say it!
>>
>> Yes, and some ignorant people insist that picnic is racist as well.
>
>Huh?

He's right.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Mike L]

On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 13:58:42 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>Okay, so one time? In band camp? Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> was all, like:

>> On 2014-04-27, Harrison Hill wrote:
>
>>> On Sunday, 27 April 2014 07:01:22 UTC+1, Bod wrote:
>>>> Does anyone know the origin of this term!
>>>
>>> It is "standard and well used" in the Cockney/Estuary dialect my
>>> wife uses, and means what I would call a "blood blister".
>
>> "Blood blister" is (IME) normal BrE. I don't think I've ever heard
>> "black man's pinch", although I vaguely recall reading it somewhere.
>

>Blood blister is normal AmE too, AFAIK. I also seem to recall seeing
>"black man's pinch" as well as a much more vulgar version, but I have no
>recollection of where or when.

C'mon, you big ol' tease, you! Tell us the much more vulgar version!

--
Mike.

[CDB]

On 08/01/2015 1:48 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> CDB wrote:
>> micky wrote:
>>> CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> access...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> Bod wrote:

>>>> [Black man's pinch]

>>>>>> Does anyone know the origin of this term!

>>>>> It's a reference to a Blacksmith who works in a forge working
>>>>> with Hammers and iron.

>>>> It seems to be used for "blood blister"; there are googlehits
>>>> that claim the phrase is racist, but I'd be surprised to learn
>>>> that the pincher wasn't originally "the Black Man", the Devil.

>>> "But"? You're making their point, not contradicting it. if
>>> the Devil was called the Black Man, that's either racist or
>>> close to it. With very few exceptions, every black is bad and
>>> everything white is good.

>> The reasons for that may go very deep, back to the harsh
>> conditions that forced our ancestors to become white; I don't think
>> they were racist to begin with. The Nut-Brown Maid was more likely
>> to have scurvy (and die in childbirth) than Fair Annie.
> ...

> I think you mean rickets, not scurvy.

You're right.

> Nothing /forced/ our ancestors to become white, since people living
> in the same latitudes in North America.

Are darker-skinned? I don't know how long the change would take, but it
seems to me that Canadian Indians have lighter skins than Mexican ones,
even discounting the effect of tanning: maybe the process is under way.
The protective mechanism in Asians, AIUI, is different too, and
separately evolved, using carotene instead of melanin. I don't know if,
or how, that might make a difference.

The Inuit have adequate dietary sources of D from fish and marine
mammals, and so aren't under the same pressure.

> You seem to be suggesting that people knew at some level that light-
> skinned people were less likely to get rickets. Is there any
> evidence of that?

I'm not sure what would constitute proof. I think it is overwhelmingly
likely that our African ancestors became light-skinned in Europe under
the evolutionary pressure of insufficient production of vitamin D in the
skin, because of insufficient light at higher latitudes and the need to
keep covered against the cold. The darkest ones did poorly, and dark
women died with their babies in childbirth. That would have been
understood as a curse, perhaps; it must have been noticed.

[Adam Funk]

On 2015-01-08, Lewis wrote:

> Okay, so one time? In band camp? Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> was all, like:

>> On 2015-01-08, Lewis wrote:

>>> Yes, and some ignorant people insist that picnic is racist as well.
>
>> Huh?
>

><http://yeyeolade.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/lynching-in-amerikkka-origin-of-the-word-picnic-is-pick-a-nigger/>
><http://www.cracked.com/article_16967_8-racist-words-you-use-every-day.html>

I have somehow managed not to come across that crackpot theory until
now. The weird thing is that the Cracked list includes a few
etymologies that I know are right.


--
The Nixon I remembered was absolutely humorless; I couldn't imagine
him laughing at anything except maybe a paraplegic who wanted to vote
Democratic but couldn't quite reach the lever on the voting machine.
--- Hunter S Thompson

[Adam Funk]

An ancient tradition since 1976!


--
A firm rule must be imposed upon our nation before it destroys
itself. The United States needs some theology and geometry, some taste
and decency. I suspect that we are teetering on the edge of the abyss.
--- Ignatius J Reilly

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 6:45:06 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2015-01-08, Lewis wrote:
>
> > Okay, so one time? In band camp? Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> was all, like:
> >> On 2015-01-08, Lewis wrote:
>
> >>> Yes, and some ignorant people insist that picnic is racist as well.
> >
> >> Huh?
> >
> ><http://yeyeolade.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/lynching-in-amerikkka-origin-of-the-word-picnic-is-pick-a-nigger/>
> ><http://www.cracked.com/article_16967_8-racist-words-you-use-every-day.html>
>
> I have somehow managed not to come across that crackpot theory until
> now. The weird thing is that the Cracked list includes a few
> etymologies that I know are right.

Um ... that _is_ the Web site associated with the "humor" magazine that tried
to compete with *MAD Magazine* some fifty years ago -- the magazine may have
long ago bitten the dust (or maybe not), leaving the name and the logo to be
resurrected by some other gang of idiots (or maybe it somehow hung on until
2009). But the language of the "explanations" clearly shows that they are not
_intended_ to be taken seriously.

(And the first of the sites attributes its nonsense to "the Smithsonian
Institute" -- there is no such thing. However, it is typical of the sort
of nonsense that used to be [one hopes] popular in "Afrocentric" or "Africana Studies" presentations some years ago. More recent was the claim that
"Redskin"
is offensive because it refers to the bloody scalps of Native American victims
of colonial genocide via scalping.)

[Mike L]

On Fri, 9 Jan 2015 13:34:33 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>Okay, so one time? In band camp? Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> was all, like:

>Surely you can divine it from the clues?

Hmm. You'd better leave it with me, as I know there are gentlemen
present.

--
Mike.

[Adam Funk]

On 2015-01-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 6:45:06 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2015-01-08, Lewis wrote:

>> ><http://yeyeolade.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/lynching-in-amerikkka-origin-of-the-word-picnic-is-pick-a-nigger/>
>> ><http://www.cracked.com/article_16967_8-racist-words-you-use-every-day.html>
>>
>> I have somehow managed not to come across that crackpot theory until
>> now. The weird thing is that the Cracked list includes a few
>> etymologies that I know are right.
>
> Um ... that _is_ the Web site associated with the "humor" magazine that tried
> to compete with *MAD Magazine* some fifty years ago -- the magazine may have
> long ago bitten the dust (or maybe not), leaving the name and the logo to be
> resurrected by some other gang of idiots (or maybe it somehow hung on until
> 2009). But the language of the "explanations" clearly shows that they are not
> _intended_ to be taken seriously.

I am not really familiar with _Cracked_ (rather than _MAD_), but that
makes sense.

> (And the first of the sites attributes its nonsense to "the
> Smithsonian Institute" -- there is no such thing. However, it is

Well, Institute/Institution could be an honest mistake, since there is
no predictable constitency among Institute/ions.

> typical of the sort of nonsense that used to be [one hopes] popular
> in "Afrocentric" or "Africana Studies" presentations some years
> ago. More recent was the claim that "Redskin" is offensive because
> it refers to the bloody scalps of Native American victims of
> colonial genocide via scalping.)

Of course, but it's arguable that "Redskin" is offensive on other
grounds. ISTR you piling in on Peter Brooks for using (probably
trolling) "Red Indian" a while back.

--
...the reason why so many professional artists drink a lot is not
necessarily very much to do with the artistic temperament, etc. It is
simply that they can afford to, because they can normally take a large
part of a day off to deal with the ravages. [Amis _On Drink_]

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 4:45:07 PM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2015-01-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, January 9, 2015 at 6:45:06 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> On 2015-01-08, Lewis wrote:

> >> ><http://yeyeolade.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/lynching-in-amerikkka-origin-of-the-word-picnic-is-pick-a-nigger/>
> >> ><http://www.cracked.com/article_16967_8-racist-words-you-use-every-day.html>
> >> I have somehow managed not to come across that crackpot theory until
> >> now. The weird thing is that the Cracked list includes a few
> >> etymologies that I know are right.
> > Um ... that _is_ the Web site associated with the "humor" magazine that tried
> > to compete with *MAD Magazine* some fifty years ago -- the magazine may have
> > long ago bitten the dust (or maybe not), leaving the name and the logo to be
> > resurrected by some other gang of idiots (or maybe it somehow hung on until
> > 2009). But the language of the "explanations" clearly shows that they are not
> > _intended_ to be taken seriously.
>
> I am not really familiar with _Cracked_ (rather than _MAD_), but that
> makes sense.
>
> > (And the first of the sites attributes its nonsense to "the
> > Smithsonian Institute" -- there is no such thing. However, it is
>
> Well, Institute/Institution could be an honest mistake, since there is
> no predictable constitency among Institute/ions.

It's a common mistake, but this was supposed to be an attribution to a source.

> > typical of the sort of nonsense that used to be [one hopes] popular
> > in "Afrocentric" or "Africana Studies" presentations some years
> > ago. More recent was the claim that "Redskin" is offensive because
> > it refers to the bloody scalps of Native American victims of
> > colonial genocide via scalping.)
>
> Of course, but it's arguable that "Redskin" is offensive on other
> grounds.

There are enough legitimate reasons to object to "Redskin" that new and gory
ones don't need to be invented out of nothing.

> ISTR you piling in on Peter Brooks for using (probably
> trolling) "Red Indian" a while back.

Indeed.

[Adam Funk]

& I agreed with you, but your attack on "pukka" was just ridiculous.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 8:30:08 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2015-01-23, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 4:45:07 PM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
>
> >> Of course, but it's arguable that "Redskin" is offensive on other
> >> grounds.
> >
> > There are enough legitimate reasons to object to "Redskin" that new and gory
> > ones don't need to be invented out of nothing.
> >
> >> ISTR you piling in on Peter Brooks for using (probably
> >> trolling) "Red Indian" a while back.
> >
> > Indeed.
>
> & I agreed with you, but your attack on "pukka" was just ridiculous.

I didn't attack "pukka" because it was racist. But you're the expert in scouring
the arcbives for imagined slights, so go ahead and revive the question.

[Adam Funk]

Here's the context:

PB: If you buy pukka carbon steel knives and keep them razor sharp,
then, no.-

PTD: This "pukka" you throw about so freely seems to be as much a
longing for your generations of colonial-master superiority as does
your "Red Indian." I suppose when Alec Guinness casually mentions
"niggers" in one of the Ealing comedies you don't bat an eyelash.

<c2decebd-ec6b-426d...@w5g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>

--
I heard that Hans Christian Andersen lifted the title for "The Little
Mermaid" off a Red Lobster Menu. [Bucky Katt]

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 10:45:07 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2015-01-26, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 8:30:08 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> On 2015-01-23, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> > On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 4:45:07 PM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
>
> >> >> ISTR you piling in on Peter Brooks for using (probably
> >> >> trolling) "Red Indian" a while back.
> >> >
> >> > Indeed.
> >>
> >> & I agreed with you, but your attack on "pukka" was just ridiculous.
> >
> > I didn't attack "pukka" because it was racist. But you're the expert in scouring
> > the arcbives for imagined slights, so go ahead and revive the question.
>
> Here's the context:
>
> PB: If you buy pukka carbon steel knives and keep them razor sharp,
> then, no.-
>
> PTD: This "pukka" you throw about so freely seems to be as much a
> longing for your generations of colonial-master superiority as does
> your "Red Indian." I suppose when Alec Guinness casually mentions
> "niggers" in one of the Ealing comedies you don't bat an eyelash.
>
> <c2decebd-ec6b-426d...@w5g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>

In order for you to believe that my comment was complaining about racism,
you'd have to believe that the entire British Imperial enterprise was based
in racism.

[Tony Cooper]

To believe that your comment was not complaining about racism, you'd
have to believe that the entire British enterprise was devoid of
racism.

[Peter T. Daniels]

My comment was complaining about the Brooks entity's continued use of a
paternalistic imperialist term.

But since you blithely retain homophobic attitudes while protesting you do
not harbor the internalized homophobia of earlier generations, it's not
surprising you don't see the distinction.

I hope the Funkster is kvelling that his trolling succeeded.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 08:41:29 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Anyway, "pukka" is a word imported into BrE in the same way that many
other words from India and other parts of the Empire have been.

I assume that those living in a 'bungalow' who sleep in
'pyjamas/pajamas' following a meal of 'curry' and 'rice' with 'mango'
'chutney' and dreaming of travelling in a 'dingy' that runs into a
'catamaran' (etc., etc.) are not thought of as "longing for generations
of colonial-master superiority".

BrE may even have imported some words from the imperial adventure that
resulted in that offshoot of the British Empire, The United States of
America.

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 10:34:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>I hope the Funkster is kvelling that his trolling succeeded.

The odd couple of Funk and Daniels; the kveller and the kvetcher.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Those words designate realia. Are you suggesting that the Brooks entity
has some pukkas at home?

> BrE may even have imported some words from the imperial adventure that
> resulted in that offshoot of the British Empire, The United States of
> America.

It seems like more often it has rejected such terms: elevator, trunk, hood, ...

[Janet]

In article <4e2d63f2-6400-4db4...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...

> My comment was complaining about the Brooks entity's continued use of a
> paternalistic imperialist term.

Urdu and Hindi are now common languages in modern Britain and their
words continue to seep into Br.Eng. Pukka (now adopted in youth slang)
is one of countless familiar terms in modern daily use, such as avatar,
loot, guru, pundit, mogul, yoga; they have no imperialist paternalist
overtones whatsoever.


Janet

[Peter T. Daniels]

The Brooks entity would be horrified to find you comparing it with users of
"youth slang" -- and "pukka" differs from all those other words, which are
not at all slang.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

"Pukka" was adopted as British youth slang a couple of decades ago. It
had been in more limited use in BrE for a long time before that started,
of course, by British people in India.

OED:

3.

a. orig. S. Asian or in South Asian context: sure, certain,
reliable; genuine, bona fide, correct. Hence more generally: real,
not sham; (of information) factually correct; (of persons)
authentic, not pretended; proper or correct in behaviour, socially
acceptable (cf. echt adj.).

1776 Trial Maha Rajah Nundocomar for Forgery 102/1 Maha Rajah
said it was necessary to witness it to make it pukka.
1857 Ld. Lawrence in R. B. Smith Life Ld. Lawrence (1883) II. i.
11 Your Lahore men have done nobly... Donald, Roberts, Mac, and
Dick are all of them, pucca trumps.
1858 Col. Keith Young in Diary & Corr. (1902) App. D. 329 On
receiving pucka information..that the Insurgents were at Singpore.
1893 G. Allen Scallywag I. 44 That's a good word... Is it pucker
English, I wonder.
1919 J. Buchan Mr. Standfast i. v. 113 My boy's at home,
convalescing, and if he says you're pukka, I'll ask your pardon.
1924 E. M. Forster Passage to India i. iii. 26 Mrs.
Turton..remarked that Mr. Fielding wasn't pukka, and had better
marry Miss Quested, for she wasn't pukka.
1948 Observer 25 Apr. 2/1 Produced for the Government of
Southern Rhodesia, that forty minute film..is one of many from
British studios that are being specially commissioned to give
straightforward information on important subjects—in fact ‘pukka
gen’.
1967 R. Singha & R. Massey Indian Dances xviii. 157 These
barracks once the epitome of pukka British army tradition, for
many years echoed all day to the sounds and rhythms of Indian
music.
1976 Physics Bull. Nov. 480/1 What it does show is a pucka trade
union doing a proper trade union job.
2006 Times (Nexis) 6 Mar. 20 Adopting her own pukka English
tones.

b. Brit. slang. Excellent, superb; ‘cool’.

1991 Sun 13 June 23/6 Hey, man, that shirt's pukka.
1996 Observer 5 May (Review Suppl.) 7/6 Girls mug girls for
jewellery or pukka clothes.
2002 C. Newland Snakeskin xix. 255 ‘Yuh mum's pukka,’ Davey
chimed in, with so much passion I knew he wasn't just being
polite.

[Adam Funk]

On 2015-01-26, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 1:56:36 PM UTC-5, PeterWD wrote:

>> Anyway, "pukka" is a word imported into BrE in the same way that many
>> other words from India and other parts of the Empire have been.
>>
>> I assume that those living in a 'bungalow' who sleep in
>> 'pyjamas/pajamas' following a meal of 'curry' and 'rice' with 'mango'
>> 'chutney' and dreaming of travelling in a 'dingy' that runs into a
>> 'catamaran' (etc., etc.) are not thought of as "longing for generations
>> of colonial-master superiority".
>
> Those words designate realia. Are you suggesting that the Brooks entity
> has some pukkas at home?

So adjectives are imperialist in a way that nouns aren't?


--
I look back with the greatest pleasure to the kindness and hospitality
I met with in Yorkshire, where I spent some of the happiest years of
my life. --- Sabine Baring-Gould

[Adam Funk]

On 2015-01-26, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> My comment was complaining about the Brooks entity's continued use of a
> paternalistic imperialist term.

"Pukka" is perfectly ordinary BrE, like "yoga" & "pyjama". You are
again showing difficulty handling dialects other than your own.

> But since you blithely retain homophobic attitudes while protesting you do
> not harbor the internalized homophobia of earlier generations, it's not
> surprising you don't see the distinction.

I see you are still spreading that lie about Tony.

> I hope the Funkster is kvelling that his trolling succeeded.

No trolling intended.

--
If hard data were the filtering criterion you could fit the entire
contents of the Internet on a floppy disk. --- Cecil Adams

[Dr Nick]

"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:

> On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 20:12:51 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 7:13:51 PM UTC-5, Janet wrote:
>>> In article <4e2d63f2-6400-4db4...@googlegroups.com>,
>>> gram...@verizon.net says...
>>>
>>> > My comment was complaining about the Brooks entity's continued use of a
>>> > paternalistic imperialist term.
>>>
>>> Urdu and Hindi are now common languages in modern Britain and their
>>> words continue to seep into Br.Eng. Pukka (now adopted in youth slang)
>>> is one of countless familiar terms in modern daily use, such as avatar,
>>> loot, guru, pundit, mogul, yoga; they have no imperialist paternalist
>>> overtones whatsoever.
>>
>>The Brooks entity would be horrified to find you comparing it with users of
>>"youth slang" -- and "pukka" differs from all those other words, which are
>>not at all slang.
>
> "Pukka" was adopted as British youth slang a couple of decades ago. It
> had been in more limited use in BrE for a long time before that started,
> of course, by British people in India.

"Pukka Pies" have been a brand for a very long time now. Since 1964 if
I read the website correctly: http://www.pukkapies.co.uk/about-us.php