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How do you pronounce "Nietzsche", "Proust", "Kant", & other difficult names?
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dbrich...@lbl.gov
Jul 10, 2014, 10:16:32 AM7/10/14
to
I hope you're all well & in good spirits.
There are many names I often encounter as text, though I hear them rarely in speech. Hence, I don't know how they are usually pronounced.
Not so long ago, I was chatting with an American and a German physicist. The American used the name "Einstein" (speaking of the "Bose-Einstein condensate"). The German continued the conversation, pronouncing the name "Einstein" as if it were spelled "Ein-shtein", the German pronunciation (and I assume the way the great physicist pronounced his own name.) I felt a moment's discomfort as I had to decide which of these pronunciations I would use. I chose the American pronunciation, since it seemed most natural to me.
Well, my invitation questions are these (please answer only the ones that interest you):
1. What principles do you use in pronouncing names whose pronunciation is uncertain to you or frequently varied?
2. What are some names whose pronunciation you have wondered about (and how do members of the AUE community pronounce them)?
3. Do you feel that one should attempt to pronounce a foreign name as it would be pronounced by native speakers? Or do you prefer generally-accepted anglicized pronunciations?
4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
Nietzsche
Proust
Kant
Einstein
Keynes
Kierkegaard
Sartre
Rodin
Le Corbusier
(Please do add to the list)
Thank you in advance for anything you may care to share....
--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
On Twitter at: http://twitter.com/BerkeleyBrett
(You don't have to be a Twitter user to view this stream of ideas.)
There are many names I often encounter as text, though I hear them rarely in speech. Hence, I don't know how they are usually pronounced.
Not so long ago, I was chatting with an American and a German physicist. The American used the name "Einstein" (speaking of the "Bose-Einstein condensate"). The German continued the conversation, pronouncing the name "Einstein" as if it were spelled "Ein-shtein", the German pronunciation (and I assume the way the great physicist pronounced his own name.) I felt a moment's discomfort as I had to decide which of these pronunciations I would use. I chose the American pronunciation, since it seemed most natural to me.
Well, my invitation questions are these (please answer only the ones that interest you):
1. What principles do you use in pronouncing names whose pronunciation is uncertain to you or frequently varied?
2. What are some names whose pronunciation you have wondered about (and how do members of the AUE community pronounce them)?
3. Do you feel that one should attempt to pronounce a foreign name as it would be pronounced by native speakers? Or do you prefer generally-accepted anglicized pronunciations?
4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
Nietzsche
Proust
Kant
Einstein
Keynes
Kierkegaard
Sartre
Rodin
Le Corbusier
(Please do add to the list)
Thank you in advance for anything you may care to share....
--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
On Twitter at: http://twitter.com/BerkeleyBrett
(You don't have to be a Twitter user to view this stream of ideas.)
dbrich...@lbl.gov
Jul 10, 2014, 10:20:55 AM7/10/14
to
Note: in the original post, I meant to delete the word "invitation" but didn't: hence the odd phrase "my invitation questions"; it should simply read "my questions".
--
Brett in Berkeley
--
Brett in Berkeley
Guy Barry
Jul 10, 2014, 10:28:29 AM7/10/14
to
Berkeley Brett wrote in message
news:5ead8f8e-1299-424d...@googlegroups.com...
>4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
>
>Nietzsche
['ni:tS@]
>Proust
[pru:st]
>Kant
[k&nt]
>Einstein
['aInstaIn]
>Keynes
[keInz] (except in "Milton Keynes, where it's [ki:nz])
>Kierkegaard
['ki:@k@,gA:d] (probably wrong)
>Sartre
['sA:tr@]
>Rodin
['r@Ud&n], roughly
>Le Corbusier
[l@ kO:'bju:zieI]
--
Guy Barry
news:5ead8f8e-1299-424d...@googlegroups.com...
>4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
>
>Nietzsche
>Proust
[pru:st]
>Kant
[k&nt]
>Einstein
['aInstaIn]
>Keynes
[keInz] (except in "Milton Keynes, where it's [ki:nz])
>Kierkegaard
['ki:@k@,gA:d] (probably wrong)
>Sartre
['sA:tr@]
>Rodin
['r@Ud&n], roughly
>Le Corbusier
[l@ kO:'bju:zieI]
--
Guy Barry
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 10, 2014, 10:33:36 AM7/10/14
to
On Thursday, July 10, 2014 10:16:32 AM UTC-4, dbrich...@lbl.gov wrote:
> There are many names I often encounter as text, though I hear them rarely in speech. Hence, I don't know how they are usually pronounced.
> Not so long ago, I was chatting with an American and a German physicist. The American used the name "Einstein" (speaking of the "Bose-Einstein condensate"). The German continued the conversation, pronouncing the name "Einstein" as if it were spelled "Ein-shtein", the German pronunciation (and I assume the way the great physicist pronounced his own name.) I felt a moment's discomfort as I had to decide which of these pronunciations I would use. I chose the American pronunciation, since it seemed most natural to me.
You made the correct choice.
> There are many names I often encounter as text, though I hear them rarely in speech. Hence, I don't know how they are usually pronounced.
> Not so long ago, I was chatting with an American and a German physicist. The American used the name "Einstein" (speaking of the "Bose-Einstein condensate"). The German continued the conversation, pronouncing the name "Einstein" as if it were spelled "Ein-shtein", the German pronunciation (and I assume the way the great physicist pronounced his own name.) I felt a moment's discomfort as I had to decide which of these pronunciations I would use. I chose the American pronunciation, since it seemed most natural to me.
> Well, my questions are these (please answer only the ones that interest you):
> 1. What principles do you use in pronouncing names whose pronunciation is uncertain to you or frequently varied?
I use my knowledge of the originating language's orthography and try to
adjust for English phonology.
> 2. What are some names whose pronunciation you have wondered about (and how do members of the AUE community pronounce them)?
> 3. Do you feel that one should attempt to pronounce a foreign name as it would be pronounced by native speakers? Or do you prefer generally-accepted anglicized pronunciations?
likewise as I watched the last USA World Cup match on Univision, it was
very odd to hear the American players' names (even the one or two Spanish-
origin ones) pronounced in perfect American within the torrent of Spanish
commentary.
> 4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
> Nietzsche
> Proust
> Kant
> Einstein
> Keynes
> Kierkegaard
> Sartre
> Rodin
> Le Corbusier
> (Please do add to the list)
> Thank you in advance for anything you may care to share....
said on this topic. The trickiest one in your list is Keynes, which looks
like it ought to be "keens" but Brits say "kanes" so that's more appropriate;
similarly for Ralph vs. Rafe Vaughan Williams.
All the others have normal English pronunciations that imitate as closely
as English phonology allows the native pronunciations of the names.
James Silverton
Jul 10, 2014, 11:31:55 AM7/10/14
to
otherwise if the name is in common use, I would use the usual
pronunciation. I don't think I would be very embarrassed to be
corrected. I'd use a simple "s" in "Einstein" as is in normal English
use. It's an interesting question about Einstein's personal
pronunciation and I don't know the answer. Kant was of Scottish ancestry
and the name "Cant" exists in Scotland pronounced [k&nt], just as is
"cant" meaning jargon.
I think most people who have reason to use the name frequently are
likely to use [keInz] for "Keynes", not [kinz].
Most educated people have had some exposure to French and could make a
reasonable attempt at Proust, Sartre, Rodin and Le Corbusier
There has been comment on how Handel said his name. Since his
naturalization application is available with "George Frideric Handel", I
guess the correct pronunciation would be as apparent with an "a" as if
the German word was not umlauted but [friderIk] not the normal English
[frederIk] that many local PBS announcers seem to like.
Fortunately "Dirac", as in the name of the mathematical physicist, is in
fairly common use and the pronunciation [dir&k] follows what his
descendants use and, since Dirac was English what he probably used too.
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
Extraneous "not." in Reply To.
Adam Funk
Jul 10, 2014, 11:48:16 AM7/10/14
to
On 2014-07-10, dbrich...@lbl.gov wrote:
> 4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
>
> Nietzsche
> Proust
> Kant
> Einstein
> Keynes
Milton or JM?
> 4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
>
> Nietzsche
> Proust
> Kant
> Einstein
> Keynes
--
Dear Ann [Landers]: if there's an enormous rash of necrophilia that
happens in the next year because of this song, please let me know.
99.9% of the rest of us know it's a funny song! --- Alice Cooper
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Jul 10, 2014, 12:01:09 PM7/10/14
to
that himself at the end of his life when speaking English. I'd very
very surprised, however, if he didn't use the /S/ when speaking in
German, or even in English with people of German origin. In a purely
anglophone context anything apart from /s/ would sound prentious.
> Kant was of Scottish ancestry and the name "Cant" exists in Scotland
> pronounced [k&nt], just as is "cant" meaning jargon.
try to sound German you are likely to come out with something not very
different from "cunt".
>
> I think most people who have reason to use the name frequently are
> likely to use [keInz] for "Keynes", not [kinz].
Yes.
> I think most people who have reason to use the name frequently are
> likely to use [keInz] for "Keynes", not [kinz].
>
> Most educated people have had some exposure to French and could make a
> reasonable attempt at Proust, Sartre, Rodin and Le Corbusier
In French I do my best to pronounce them as French. In an anglophone
> Most educated people have had some exposure to French and could make a
> reasonable attempt at Proust, Sartre, Rodin and Le Corbusier
context I wouldn't use a French r or u. The one I say most often is the
last, because I live about 5 minutes walk away from a building known to
one and all as Le Corbusier (officially it's La Cit� Radieuse, but if
you call it that no one will know what you mean), and as everyone who
lives in Marseilles knows it it's a necessary name when giving
directions (e.g. to taxi drivers).
>
> There has been comment on how Handel said his name. Since his
> naturalization application is available with "George Frideric Handel",
> I guess the correct pronunciation would be as apparent with an "a" as
> if the German word was not umlauted but [friderIk] not the normal
> English [frederIk] that many local PBS announcers seem to like.
I think most people would regard it as prentious to pronounce it as
> There has been comment on how Handel said his name. Since his
> naturalization application is available with "George Frideric Handel",
> I guess the correct pronunciation would be as apparent with an "a" as
> if the German word was not umlauted but [friderIk] not the normal
> English [frederIk] that many local PBS announcers seem to like.
H�ndel (unless talking with Germans)
>
> Fortunately "Dirac", as in the name of the mathematical physicist, is
> in fairly common use and the pronunciation [dir&k] follows what his
> descendants use and, since Dirac was English what he probably used too.
Englishish. His father was a francophone Swiss, and he was a fluent
> Fortunately "Dirac", as in the name of the mathematical physicist, is
> in fairly common use and the pronunciation [dir&k] follows what his
> descendants use and, since Dirac was English what he probably used too.
French speaker.
--
athel
James Silverton
Jul 10, 2014, 12:14:05 PM7/10/14
to
[roUd&n] without trying for the French nasalization and French "r". If I
remember, I will again ask my son, who knows Dirac's grandson, about
pronunciation.
![Peter Duncanson [BrE]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjU1GGYFBCZgBCNB-pRgkosMu-ej0qpnECw3jc8uGYOTiF8a=s40-c)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Jul 10, 2014, 12:46:18 PM7/10/14
to
On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 16:48:16 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:
>On 2014-07-10, dbrich...@lbl.gov wrote:
>
>> 4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
>>
>> Nietzsche
>> Proust
>> Kant
>> Einstein
>> Keynes
>
>Milton or JM?
A political acquaintance of a coworker of mine some years ago caused
great amusement when while holding forth on economics he referred to the
economist Milton Keynes. Perhaps he meant JM Friedman.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
wrote:
>On 2014-07-10, dbrich...@lbl.gov wrote:
>
>> 4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
>>
>> Nietzsche
>> Proust
>> Kant
>> Einstein
>> Keynes
>
>Milton or JM?
great amusement when while holding forth on economics he referred to the
economist Milton Keynes. Perhaps he meant JM Friedman.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Guy Barry
Jul 10, 2014, 12:52:05 PM7/10/14
to
"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote in message
news:kjgtr99oadsfc9sv3...@4ax.com...
>A political acquaintance of a coworker of mine some years ago caused
>great amusement when while holding forth on economics he referred to the
>economist Milton Keynes. Perhaps he meant JM Friedman.
Or perhaps he was referencing "Yes Minister":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgUemV4brDU
--
Guy Barry
news:kjgtr99oadsfc9sv3...@4ax.com...
>A political acquaintance of a coworker of mine some years ago caused
>great amusement when while holding forth on economics he referred to the
>economist Milton Keynes. Perhaps he meant JM Friedman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgUemV4brDU
--
Guy Barry
Steve Hayes
Jul 10, 2014, 1:52:12 PM7/10/14
to
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Steve Hayes
Jul 10, 2014, 1:53:12 PM7/10/14
to
Message has been deleted
Paul Wolff
Jul 10, 2014, 3:02:13 PM7/10/14
to
On Thu, 10 Jul 2014, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net>
posted:
In another thread here recently I mentioned a Dane, a Mr. Blomkvist, in
connection with a counterfeit Rolex watch he had bought from China, and
the ensuing dispute that went up to the top law court of the European
Union.
I had known about Mr Blomkvist because of a lecture I went to ten days
ago, when the case was discussed by a young (as it seemed to me)
trademark lawyer from a top London law firm - one of those international
practices with offices all around the globe.
The lecture was about recent European trademark decisions from that
court. You can imagine that European names would be quite prevalent in
European trademark litigation. You might imagine that a lawyer
specialising in this practice area would have some competence in how to
say the words. But you would be wrong.
My aural memory doesn't go to what exactly she actually did say. She
certainly made a mess of Blomkvist (among other names in other cases
that also featured in the lecture), and was reduced, with an explicit
apology and appeal to the understanding of the audience, to calling the
litigant "Mr. B."
Now I don't know how a Dane says "Blomkvist", but at least I can make a
decent stab at saying the word as if it were English, which itself was
an ask too far for this young speaker - "Blomviks", perhaps, was her
best effort.
To round this off, I'd say "Blom" for the first half, with a short "o"
("cot", specifically, for the unmerged), and "kvist" in a
letter-by-letter sort of way. Which reminds me of my German
grandfather's pronunciation of "Quiz", the name of my Dutch aunt and
uncle's dog, which came out as "kvits". Doppel or kvits, my sister and I
thought silently to ourselves.
--
Paul
posted:
connection with a counterfeit Rolex watch he had bought from China, and
the ensuing dispute that went up to the top law court of the European
Union.
I had known about Mr Blomkvist because of a lecture I went to ten days
ago, when the case was discussed by a young (as it seemed to me)
trademark lawyer from a top London law firm - one of those international
practices with offices all around the globe.
The lecture was about recent European trademark decisions from that
court. You can imagine that European names would be quite prevalent in
European trademark litigation. You might imagine that a lawyer
specialising in this practice area would have some competence in how to
say the words. But you would be wrong.
My aural memory doesn't go to what exactly she actually did say. She
certainly made a mess of Blomkvist (among other names in other cases
that also featured in the lecture), and was reduced, with an explicit
apology and appeal to the understanding of the audience, to calling the
litigant "Mr. B."
Now I don't know how a Dane says "Blomkvist", but at least I can make a
decent stab at saying the word as if it were English, which itself was
an ask too far for this young speaker - "Blomviks", perhaps, was her
best effort.
To round this off, I'd say "Blom" for the first half, with a short "o"
("cot", specifically, for the unmerged), and "kvist" in a
letter-by-letter sort of way. Which reminds me of my German
grandfather's pronunciation of "Quiz", the name of my Dutch aunt and
uncle's dog, which came out as "kvits". Doppel or kvits, my sister and I
thought silently to ourselves.
--
Paul
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Jul 10, 2014, 3:26:17 PM7/10/14
to
ceased to be a coworker before Yes Minister was broadcast. So I'd have
heard the story in the 1970s.
R H Draney
Jul 10, 2014, 3:52:24 PM7/10/14
to
Peter T. Daniels filted:
>
>I think the "van Gogh" scene in *Annie Hall* says all that needs to be=20
>said on this topic. The trickiest one in your list is Keynes, which looks=
>=20
>like it ought to be "keens" but Brits say "kanes" so that's more appropriat=
>e;=20
rhyme....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
>
>I think the "van Gogh" scene in *Annie Hall* says all that needs to be=20
>said on this topic. The trickiest one in your list is Keynes, which looks=
>=20
>like it ought to be "keens" but Brits say "kanes" so that's more appropriat=
>e;=20
>similarly for Ralph vs. Rafe Vaughan Williams.
Foreign-name pronunciation is up for grabs when Keats and Yeats don't even
rhyme....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
Don Phillipson
Jul 10, 2014, 3:46:22 PM7/10/14
to
"James Silverton" <not.jim....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:lpme44$ehg$1...@dont-email.me...
> I would expect most educated English speakers would pronounce Rodin as
> [roUd&n] without trying for the French nasalization and French "r".
The expectation is not realized. After articulating an English R, Britons
pronounce
(the rest of) this French name exactly as the French do.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
news:lpme44$ehg$1...@dont-email.me...
> I would expect most educated English speakers would pronounce Rodin as
> [roUd&n] without trying for the French nasalization and French "r".
pronounce
(the rest of) this French name exactly as the French do.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Adam Funk
Jul 10, 2014, 4:15:32 PM7/10/14
to
"canes" for the economist
I don't know why.
--
They do (play, that is), and nobody gets killed, but Metallic K.O. is
the only rock album I know where you can actually hear hurled beer
bottles breaking against guitar strings. --- Lester Bangs
James Hogg
Jul 10, 2014, 4:37:50 PM7/10/14
to
>> On Thursday, July 10, 2014 10:16:32 AM UTC-4, dbrich...@lbl.gov wrote:
>
>>> 4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
>>> Kierkegaard
>
>>> 4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
Should rhyme with "gored", not "guard", but I've never heard anything
approaching the correct pronunciation outside Scandinavia.
--
James
Adam Funk
Jul 10, 2014, 4:42:19 PM7/10/14
to
To justify the whooping cranes
NO CARRIER
--
You're 100 percent correct --- it's been scientifically proven that
microwaving changes the molecular structure of food. THIS IS CALLED
COOKING, YOU NITWIT. --- Cecil Adams
Oliver Cromm
Jul 10, 2014, 5:27:18 PM7/10/14
to
* Peter T. Daniels:
Before looking him up, I pronounced Ralph Fiennes wrong in both
parts.
--
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.
parts.
--
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.
Oliver Cromm
Jul 10, 2014, 5:27:20 PM7/10/14
to
* Stefan Ram:
> Some Germans
> do this too, pronouncing the English word �staff� using
> German rules, so that it sounds like the English �stuff�.
Using German rules, "staff" might sound like English "shtuff", but
not like "stuff".
But maybe these people only use "German rules" for the <a>, not
the <st>? Well, then I doubt they are actually using German rules;
more likely they are unclear about the differences between German
/a/ and English /&/. Other Germans use /E/ in place of /&/.
--
Spell checker (n.) One who gives examinations on witchcraft.
Herman Rubin in sci.lang
> Some Germans
> do this too, pronouncing the English word �staff� using
> German rules, so that it sounds like the English �stuff�.
Using German rules, "staff" might sound like English "shtuff", but
not like "stuff".
But maybe these people only use "German rules" for the <a>, not
the <st>? Well, then I doubt they are actually using German rules;
more likely they are unclear about the differences between German
/a/ and English /&/. Other Germans use /E/ in place of /&/.
--
Spell checker (n.) One who gives examinations on witchcraft.
Herman Rubin in sci.lang
Oliver Cromm
Jul 10, 2014, 5:43:33 PM7/10/14
to
* James Hogg:
Rhyming with "gore" would be even closer to Danish, to my ears at
least. I don't hear the final d which is realized as a glottal
stop.
--
Pentiums melt in your PC, not in your hand.
least. I don't hear the final d which is realized as a glottal
stop.
--
Pentiums melt in your PC, not in your hand.
Joe Fineman
Jul 10, 2014, 6:03:29 PM7/10/14
to
Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
Mössbauer. Usually I manage some compromise between the Scylla of
conspicuous & perhaps incompetent intrusion of foreign phonology and the
Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe I am
flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
sentence.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: If you had told Plato that the earth is a planet and the sun :||
||: is a star, he would have said "Yeah, and I'm Pluto". :||
Mössbauer. Usually I manage some compromise between the Scylla of
conspicuous & perhaps incompetent intrusion of foreign phonology and the
Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe I am
flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
sentence.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: If you had told Plato that the earth is a planet and the sun :||
||: is a star, he would have said "Yeah, and I'm Pluto". :||
James Hogg
Jul 10, 2014, 6:03:51 PM7/10/14
to
--
James
Message has been deleted
Jack Campin
Jul 10, 2014, 7:17:48 PM7/10/14
to
> 4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
>
> Nietzsche [NEET-sher]
>
> Proust [Proost]
> Kant [Can't]
> Einstein [Ine-stine, spondaic]
> Keynes [Keens or Canes, at random]
> Kierkegaard [KURK-uh-gore]
> Sartre [SAR-trr, properly rhotic]
> Rodin [ROW-daan]
> Le Corbusier [lur kor-BOOZE-ee-ay]
(My background: southern English/NZ/Scots, philosophy degree, have
studied some French and German and my father was an architect, so
I've had a lot of influences on most of those).
> (Please do add to the list)
way I learned from William Ngata's "Let's Learn Maori", Hungarian
as natively as I can get it, and Scots in the usual modern
Edinburgh way. Other languages I'm much more haphazard about.
With names from African languages I don't even try, after once
hearing "Kwame Nkrumah" pronounced by a Ghanaian and realizing
my guess was wildly off-beam.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Jack Campin
Jul 10, 2014, 7:22:06 PM7/10/14
to
> The trickiest one in your list is Keynes, which looks like it
> ought to be "keens" but Brits say "kanes" so that's more
> appropriate; similarly for Ralph vs. Rafe Vaughan Williams.
"Rafe" always sounds pretentious to me - I haven't met many people
> ought to be "keens" but Brits say "kanes" so that's more
> appropriate; similarly for Ralph vs. Rafe Vaughan Williams.
called Ralph but none of them said "Rafe". So I say "Ralph". I
doubt RVW would have cared, he wasn't a fusspot about trivia.
Jack Campin
Jul 10, 2014, 7:47:21 PM7/10/14
to
>> It's an interesting question about Einstein's personal pronunciation
>> and I don't know the answer.
> I expect he got very used to hearing it with /s/ and might have used
> that himself at the end of his life when speaking English. I'd very
> very surprised, however, if he didn't use the /S/ when speaking in
> German, or even in English with people of German origin. In a purely
> anglophone context anything apart from /s/ would sound prentious.
There is a report of Wittgenstein's lectures where one of his students
>> and I don't know the answer.
> I expect he got very used to hearing it with /s/ and might have used
> that himself at the end of his life when speaking English. I'd very
> very surprised, however, if he didn't use the /S/ when speaking in
> German, or even in English with people of German origin. In a purely
> anglophone context anything apart from /s/ would sound prentious.
mentions he anglicized the W.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Jul 10, 2014, 7:48:34 PM7/10/14
to
his own name. <wink>
Ross
Jul 10, 2014, 8:06:23 PM7/10/14
to
On Friday, July 11, 2014 11:17:48 AM UTC+12, Jack Campin wrote:
> I pronounce Turkish names like a TRT announcer, Maori names the
> way I learned from William Ngata's "Let's Learn Maori",
I think that would be Bruce Biggs' "Let's Learn Maori", no? Do you
> I pronounce Turkish names like a TRT announcer, Maori names the
> way I learned from William Ngata's "Let's Learn Maori",
have the records or tapes that once existed to go with it?
Or maybe you're talking about some work with a similar name by
Wiremu Tuakana (William) Ngata, or even Apirana Ngata (whose name
appeared on the cover of a popular introduction to Maori which was
actually largely the work of Mother Suzanne Aubert)?
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 10, 2014, 11:12:53 PM7/10/14
to
On Thursday, July 10, 2014 4:15:32 PM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2014-07-10, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 10:16:32 AM UTC-4, dbrich...@lbl.gov wrote:
> >> 4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
> >> Nietzsche
> >> Proust
> >> Kant
> >> Einstein
> >> Keynes
> >> Kierkegaard
> >> Sartre
> >> Rodin
> >> Le Corbusier
> On 2014-07-10, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 10:16:32 AM UTC-4, dbrich...@lbl.gov wrote:
> >> 4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
> >> Nietzsche
> >> Proust
> >> Kant
> >> Einstein
> >> Keynes
> >> Kierkegaard
> >> Sartre
> >> Rodin
> >> Le Corbusier
> > I think the "van Gogh" scene in *Annie Hall* says all that needs to be
> > said on this topic. The trickiest one in your list is Keynes, which looks
> > like it ought to be "keens" but Brits say "kanes" so that's more appropriate;
> > similarly for Ralph vs. Rafe Vaughan Williams.
>
> "keens" for Milton Keynes (town)
> "canes" for the economist
> I don't know why.
If their orchestra hadn't been the one on the recordings of (Sterndale)
> > said on this topic. The trickiest one in your list is Keynes, which looks
> > like it ought to be "keens" but Brits say "kanes" so that's more appropriate;
> > similarly for Ralph vs. Rafe Vaughan Williams.
>
> "keens" for Milton Keynes (town)
> "canes" for the economist
> I don't know why.
Bennett's piano concertos, I would never have heard of the town, so
its pronunciation was as immaterial to me as that of Slough.
I knew "Keynesiam" because John Kenneth Galbraith was a frequent radio
guest -- he probably met him, during his days in the FDR Administration
(not Government).
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 10, 2014, 11:15:51 PM7/10/14
to
On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:03:29 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
> Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
> Mössbauer. Usually I manage some compromise between the Scylla of
> conspicuous & perhaps incompetent intrusion of foreign phonology and the
> Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe I am
> flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
> sentence.
Gerta will do. Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
> Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
> Mössbauer. Usually I manage some compromise between the Scylla of
> conspicuous & perhaps incompetent intrusion of foreign phonology and the
> Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe I am
> flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
> sentence.
Ross
Jul 10, 2014, 11:48:42 PM7/10/14
to
>Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
Jerry Friedman
Jul 11, 2014, 12:58:06 AM7/11/14
to
On 7/10/14 8:16 AM, dbrich...@lbl.gov wrote:
> I hope you're all well & in good spirits.
>
> There are many names I often encounter as text, though I hear them rarely in speech. Hence, I don't know how they are usually pronounced.
>
> Not so long ago, I was chatting with an American and a German physicist. The American used the name "Einstein" (speaking of the "Bose-Einstein condensate"). The German continued the conversation, pronouncing the name "Einstein" as if it were spelled "Ein-shtein", the German pronunciation (and I assume the way the great physicist pronounced his own name.) I felt a moment's discomfort as I had to decide which of these pronunciations I would use. I chose the American pronunciation, since it seemed most natural to me.
>
> Well, my invitation questions are these (please answer only the ones that interest you):
>
> 1. What principles do you use in pronouncing names whose pronunciation is uncertain to you or frequently varied?
>
> 2. What are some names whose pronunciation you have wondered about (and how do members of the AUE community pronounce them)?
>
> 3. Do you feel that one should attempt to pronounce a foreign name as it would be pronounced by native speakers? Or do you prefer generally-accepted anglicized pronunciations?
>
> I hope you're all well & in good spirits.
>
> There are many names I often encounter as text, though I hear them rarely in speech. Hence, I don't know how they are usually pronounced.
>
> Not so long ago, I was chatting with an American and a German physicist. The American used the name "Einstein" (speaking of the "Bose-Einstein condensate"). The German continued the conversation, pronouncing the name "Einstein" as if it were spelled "Ein-shtein", the German pronunciation (and I assume the way the great physicist pronounced his own name.) I felt a moment's discomfort as I had to decide which of these pronunciations I would use. I chose the American pronunciation, since it seemed most natural to me.
>
> Well, my invitation questions are these (please answer only the ones that interest you):
>
> 1. What principles do you use in pronouncing names whose pronunciation is uncertain to you or frequently varied?
>
> 2. What are some names whose pronunciation you have wondered about (and how do members of the AUE community pronounce them)?
>
> 3. Do you feel that one should attempt to pronounce a foreign name as it would be pronounced by native speakers? Or do you prefer generally-accepted anglicized pronunciations?
>
> 4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
Somebody's got to speak up for the mainland.
> Nietzsche
['nitS@], not ['nitSi] (except to point out that Nietzsche is peachy,
but Freud is enjoyed--but Sartre is smartre).
> Proust
One of the easiest French names to anglicize, /prust/
> Kant
[kAnt], not like "cant", and no danger of confusing it with any part of
anyone's body.
> Einstein
> Keynes
Thanks to everyone who reminded me of which vowel to use.
> Kierkegaard
I might give ['kirk@g,Ord] a shot.
> Sartre
[sArt] or ['sArtr@]
> Rodin
Probably [roU'd&~], that is, only the "in" gets the Frenchish treatment.
> Le Corbusier
...
[l@ ,kOrbuz'jeI]
--
Jerry Friedman
Guy Barry
Jul 11, 2014, 1:25:53 AM7/11/14
to
"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote in message
news:h1qtr9thqkpgotbhf...@4ax.com...
--
Guy Barry
Guy Barry
Jul 11, 2014, 1:37:50 AM7/11/14
to
"Jack Campin" wrote in message
news:bogus-AC05CD....@four.schnuerpel.eu...
Williams). I think it's an almost exclusively upper-class pronunciation.
--
Guy Barry
news:bogus-AC05CD....@four.schnuerpel.eu...
>
>> The trickiest one in your list is Keynes, which looks like it
>> ought to be "keens" but Brits say "kanes" so that's more
>> appropriate; similarly for Ralph vs. Rafe Vaughan Williams.
>
>"Rafe" always sounds pretentious to me - I haven't met many people
>called Ralph but none of them said "Rafe". So I say "Ralph". I
>doubt RVW would have cared, he wasn't a fusspot about trivia.
I knew one at school (he was actually a distant relative of Ralph Vaughan
>> The trickiest one in your list is Keynes, which looks like it
>> ought to be "keens" but Brits say "kanes" so that's more
>> appropriate; similarly for Ralph vs. Rafe Vaughan Williams.
>
>"Rafe" always sounds pretentious to me - I haven't met many people
>called Ralph but none of them said "Rafe". So I say "Ralph". I
>doubt RVW would have cared, he wasn't a fusspot about trivia.
Williams). I think it's an almost exclusively upper-class pronunciation.
--
Guy Barry
Ross
Jul 11, 2014, 1:49:51 AM7/11/14
to
always "Rafe", though I don't know much about his class/family background.
Of course there's the fun in "HMS Pinafore" with Ralph Rackstraw, ostensibly
a common sailor, being called "Rafe" throughout, an anomaly which is
"explained" when his patrician birth is revealed at the end.
Steve Hayes
Jul 11, 2014, 2:00:54 AM7/11/14
to
On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 19:52:12 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>Nietzsche
Nietsh@
>Kant
Cunt.
>Einstein
Ine stine
>Sartre
Sartr
>Le Corbusier
le cor boosier
>
>(Please do add to the list)
Einstein, Feinstein, Weinstein, Neon Sign.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
>Nietzsche
Nietsh@
>Kant
Cunt.
>Einstein
Ine stine
>Sartre
Sartr
>Le Corbusier
le cor boosier
>
>(Please do add to the list)
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Steve Hayes
Jul 11, 2014, 2:03:27 AM7/11/14
to
As was the Australian pronunciation of Fanie de Villiers.
R H Draney
Jul 11, 2014, 2:05:55 AM7/11/14
to
Jack Campin filted:
my mother's cat was able to call him by name...when Ralph was in a silly mood,
he'd also answer to /rAfeI'el/....
My grandfather's name was also Ralph, which everyone always pronounced
/dZIm/....r
>
>> The trickiest one in your list is Keynes, which looks like it
>> ought to be "keens" but Brits say "kanes" so that's more
>> appropriate; similarly for Ralph vs. Rafe Vaughan Williams.
>
>"Rafe" always sounds pretentious to me - I haven't met many people
>called Ralph but none of them said "Rafe". So I say "Ralph". I
>doubt RVW would have cared, he wasn't a fusspot about trivia.
My stepfather was Ralph, pronounced /r&lf/, which is just as well since it meant
>> The trickiest one in your list is Keynes, which looks like it
>> ought to be "keens" but Brits say "kanes" so that's more
>> appropriate; similarly for Ralph vs. Rafe Vaughan Williams.
>
>"Rafe" always sounds pretentious to me - I haven't met many people
>called Ralph but none of them said "Rafe". So I say "Ralph". I
>doubt RVW would have cared, he wasn't a fusspot about trivia.
my mother's cat was able to call him by name...when Ralph was in a silly mood,
he'd also answer to /rAfeI'el/....
My grandfather's name was also Ralph, which everyone always pronounced
/dZIm/....r
R H Draney
Jul 11, 2014, 2:09:21 AM7/11/14
to
Jack Campin filted:
either /vIrt/ if you called him by name, or /wRT/ if you called him by
value....r
>
>>> It's an interesting question about Einstein's personal pronunciation
>>> and I don't know the answer.
>> I expect he got very used to hearing it with /s/ and might have used
>> that himself at the end of his life when speaking English. I'd very
>> very surprised, however, if he didn't use the /S/ when speaking in
>> German, or even in English with people of German origin. In a purely
>> anglophone context anything apart from /s/ would sound prentious.
>
>There is a report of Wittgenstein's lectures where one of his students
>mentions he anglicized the W.
I trust we've all heard the story of Niklaus Wirth, who explained that he was
>>> It's an interesting question about Einstein's personal pronunciation
>>> and I don't know the answer.
>> I expect he got very used to hearing it with /s/ and might have used
>> that himself at the end of his life when speaking English. I'd very
>> very surprised, however, if he didn't use the /S/ when speaking in
>> German, or even in English with people of German origin. In a purely
>> anglophone context anything apart from /s/ would sound prentious.
>
>There is a report of Wittgenstein's lectures where one of his students
>mentions he anglicized the W.
either /vIrt/ if you called him by name, or /wRT/ if you called him by
value....r
Steve Hayes
Jul 11, 2014, 2:41:06 AM7/11/14
to
Mark Brader
Jul 11, 2014, 3:17:50 AM7/11/14
to
David Richardson:
first, I go with what the person I heard it from uses. If written, then
I guess.
> 3. Do you feel that one should attempt to pronounce a foreign name as it
> would be pronounced by native speakers? Or do you prefer
> generally-accepted anglicized pronunciations?
It varies. There are a few names where an anglicized version is the only
one commonly heard, such as "Van Gogh" with silent gh, and "Jules Verne"
like joolz vern. If that happens, I say go with it. This may also
occur for parts of names, like the German prefix "von" being pronounced
"von" rather than "fon". Otherwise I think that partial anglicization
(where foreign sounds are replaced by the nearest English equivalent)
is acceptable.
> 4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
>
> Nietzsche
NEET-shuh.
> Proust
To rhyme with "roost".
> Kant
Like "can't".
> Einstein
With a normal English S.
> Keynes
Like "Keens", because I saw it in writing first.
> Kierkegaard
KEER-kuh-gard.
> Sartre
One syllable ending in "rtr".
> Rodin
As in French or like "ro-DAN".
> Le Corbusier
As in French or something like it. Maybe "luh-kor-byou-SYAY".
--
Mark Brader | "Perl is a minimalist language at heart.
Toronto | It's just minimalistic about weird things
m...@vex.net | compared to your average language." -- Larry Wall
My text in this article is in the public domain.
> 1. What principles do you use in pronouncing names whose pronunciation
> is uncertain to you or frequently varied?
I don't use principles, I just do it. If I come across the name spoken
> is uncertain to you or frequently varied?
first, I go with what the person I heard it from uses. If written, then
I guess.
> 3. Do you feel that one should attempt to pronounce a foreign name as it
> would be pronounced by native speakers? Or do you prefer
> generally-accepted anglicized pronunciations?
one commonly heard, such as "Van Gogh" with silent gh, and "Jules Verne"
like joolz vern. If that happens, I say go with it. This may also
occur for parts of names, like the German prefix "von" being pronounced
"von" rather than "fon". Otherwise I think that partial anglicization
(where foreign sounds are replaced by the nearest English equivalent)
is acceptable.
> 4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
>
NEET-shuh.
> Proust
To rhyme with "roost".
> Kant
Like "can't".
> Einstein
With a normal English S.
> Keynes
Like "Keens", because I saw it in writing first.
> Kierkegaard
KEER-kuh-gard.
> Sartre
One syllable ending in "rtr".
> Rodin
As in French or like "ro-DAN".
> Le Corbusier
As in French or something like it. Maybe "luh-kor-byou-SYAY".
--
Mark Brader | "Perl is a minimalist language at heart.
Toronto | It's just minimalistic about weird things
m...@vex.net | compared to your average language." -- Larry Wall
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Jul 11, 2014, 3:36:20 AM7/11/14
to
On 2014-07-10 21:27:20 +0000, Oliver Cromm said:
> * Stefan Ram:
>
>> Some Germans
>> do this too, pronouncing the English word �staff� using
>> German rules, so that it sounds like the English �stuff�.
>
> Using German rules, "staff" might sound like English "shtuff", but
> not like "stuff".
>
> But maybe these people only use "German rules" for the <a>, not
> the <st>? Well, then I doubt they are actually using German rules;
> more likely they are unclear about the differences between German
> /a/ and English /&/. Other Germans use /E/ in place of /&/.
I find van Gogh to be among the most difficult. Americans seem to
> * Stefan Ram:
>
>> Some Germans
>> do this too, pronouncing the English word �staff� using
>> German rules, so that it sounds like the English �stuff�.
>
> Using German rules, "staff" might sound like English "shtuff", but
> not like "stuff".
>
> But maybe these people only use "German rules" for the <a>, not
> the <st>? Well, then I doubt they are actually using German rules;
> more likely they are unclear about the differences between German
> /a/ and English /&/. Other Germans use /E/ in place of /&/.
ignore the gh entirely, but many British people seem to treat it as
/x/. I don't think anyone who isn't Dutch makes a serious attempt at
the first G. We're off to Arles today, so no doubt I'll come back with
a better idea of how the French pronounce it: probably more or less
like Americans.
--
athel
Guy Barry
Jul 11, 2014, 3:55:43 AM7/11/14
to
"R H Draney" wrote in message news:lpnv2...@drn.newsguy.com...
--
Guy Barry
>
>I trust we've all heard the story of Niklaus Wirth, who explained that he
>was
>either /vIrt/ if you called him by name, or /wRT/ if you called him by
>value....r
No I haven't. That's very good indeed.
>I trust we've all heard the story of Niklaus Wirth, who explained that he
>was
>either /vIrt/ if you called him by name, or /wRT/ if you called him by
>value....r
--
Guy Barry
Adam Funk
Jul 11, 2014, 4:22:21 AM7/11/14
to
drove you up the wall.
--
War is God's way of teaching Americans geography.
[Ambrose Bierce]
Adam Funk
Jul 11, 2014, 4:23:56 AM7/11/14
to
On 2014-07-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, July 10, 2014 4:15:32 PM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
>> "keens" for Milton Keynes (town)
>> "canes" for the economist
>> I don't know why.
>
> If their orchestra hadn't been the one on the recordings of (Sterndale)
> Bennett's piano concertos, I would never have heard of the town, so
> its pronunciation was as immaterial to me as that of Slough.
I can remember how to pronounce that because of Betjeman.
> On Thursday, July 10, 2014 4:15:32 PM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
>> "keens" for Milton Keynes (town)
>> "canes" for the economist
>> I don't know why.
>
> If their orchestra hadn't been the one on the recordings of (Sterndale)
> Bennett's piano concertos, I would never have heard of the town, so
> its pronunciation was as immaterial to me as that of Slough.
--
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.
--- President Muffley
Adam Funk
Jul 11, 2014, 4:27:21 AM7/11/14
to
On 2014-07-11, R H Draney wrote:
> Jack Campin filted:
>>There is a report of Wittgenstein's lectures where one of his students
>>mentions he anglicized the W.
>
> I trust we've all heard the story of Niklaus Wirth, who explained that he was
> either /vIrt/ if you called him by name, or /wRT/ if you called him by
> value....r
What if you're just asking for a reference?
--
They do (play, that is), and nobody gets killed, but Metallic K.O. is
the only rock album I know where you can actually hear hurled beer
bottles breaking against guitar strings. --- Lester Bangs
> Jack Campin filted:
>>There is a report of Wittgenstein's lectures where one of his students
>>mentions he anglicized the W.
>
> I trust we've all heard the story of Niklaus Wirth, who explained that he was
> either /vIrt/ if you called him by name, or /wRT/ if you called him by
> value....r
--
They do (play, that is), and nobody gets killed, but Metallic K.O. is
the only rock album I know where you can actually hear hurled beer
bottles breaking against guitar strings. --- Lester Bangs
Adam Funk
Jul 11, 2014, 4:29:59 AM7/11/14
to
On 2014-07-10, James Silverton wrote:
> On 7/10/2014 12:01 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2014-07-10 15:31:55 +0000, James Silverton said:
>>> There has been comment on how Handel said his name. Since his
>>> naturalization application is available with "George Frideric Handel",
>>> I guess the correct pronunciation would be as apparent with an "a" as
>>> if the German word was not umlauted but [friderIk] not the normal
>>> English [frederIk] that many local PBS announcers seem to like.
Likewike William (rather than Wilhelm) Herschel (first person to
observe Uranus).
...
> I would expect most educated English speakers would pronounce Rodin as
> [roUd&n] without trying for the French nasalization and French "r". If I
> remember, I will again ask my son, who knows Dirac's grandson, about
> pronunciation.
I'd expect the nasal vowel but not the French "r".
--
Classical Greek lent itself to the promulgation of a rich culture,
indeed, to Western civilization. Computer languages bring us
doorbells that chime with thirty-two tunes, alt.sex.bestiality, and
Tetris clones. (Stoll 1995)
> On 7/10/2014 12:01 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2014-07-10 15:31:55 +0000, James Silverton said:
>>> There has been comment on how Handel said his name. Since his
>>> naturalization application is available with "George Frideric Handel",
>>> I guess the correct pronunciation would be as apparent with an "a" as
>>> if the German word was not umlauted but [friderIk] not the normal
>>> English [frederIk] that many local PBS announcers seem to like.
Likewike William (rather than Wilhelm) Herschel (first person to
observe Uranus).
...
> I would expect most educated English speakers would pronounce Rodin as
> [roUd&n] without trying for the French nasalization and French "r". If I
> remember, I will again ask my son, who knows Dirac's grandson, about
> pronunciation.
I'd expect the nasal vowel but not the French "r".
--
Classical Greek lent itself to the promulgation of a rich culture,
indeed, to Western civilization. Computer languages bring us
doorbells that chime with thirty-two tunes, alt.sex.bestiality, and
Tetris clones. (Stoll 1995)
Adam Funk
Jul 11, 2014, 4:30:51 AM7/11/14
to
On 2014-07-10, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2014-07-10 15:31:55 +0000, James Silverton said:
>> Kant was of Scottish ancestry and the name "Cant" exists in Scotland
> On 2014-07-10 15:31:55 +0000, James Silverton said:
>> pronounced [k&nt], just as is "cant" meaning jargon.
>
> Doubtless you're right, but Kant has the additional problem that if you
> try to sound German you are likely to come out with something not very
> different from "cunt".
What is the distribution of accents in English with this version of
the STRUT vowel?
--
Civilization is a race between catastrophe and education.
[H G Wells]
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Jul 11, 2014, 4:45:30 AM7/11/14
to
On 2014-07-11 08:23:56 +0000, Adam Funk said:
> On 2014-07-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, July 10, 2014 4:15:32 PM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
>
>>> "keens" for Milton Keynes (town)
>>> "canes" for the economist
>>> I don't know why.
>>
>> If their orchestra hadn't been the one on the recordings of (Sterndale)
>> Bennett's piano concertos, I would never have heard of the town, so
>> its pronunciation was as immaterial to me as that of Slough.
>
> I can remember how to pronounce that because of Betjeman.
It's a place one sometimes needs to drive through (though not
> On 2014-07-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, July 10, 2014 4:15:32 PM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
>
>>> "keens" for Milton Keynes (town)
>>> "canes" for the economist
>>> I don't know why.
>>
>> If their orchestra hadn't been the one on the recordings of (Sterndale)
>> Bennett's piano concertos, I would never have heard of the town, so
>> its pronunciation was as immaterial to me as that of Slough.
>
> I can remember how to pronounce that because of Betjeman.
recommended), and, of course, if one goes to visit Brenda.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Jul 11, 2014, 4:47:14 AM7/11/14
to
On 2014-07-11 08:22:21 +0000, Adam Funk said:
> On 2014-07-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:03:29 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
>>
>>> Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
>>> M�ssbauer. Usually I manage some compromise between the Scylla of
> On 2014-07-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:03:29 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
>>
>>> Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
>>> conspicuous & perhaps incompetent intrusion of foreign phonology and the
>>> Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe I am
>>> flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
>>> sentence.
>>
>> Gerta will do. Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
>
> Eh?! I thought the non-rhotic use of "r" to indicate vowel quality
> drove you up the wall.
I thought that as well, but I think he's exempt from the rules he
>>> Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe I am
>>> flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
>>> sentence.
>>
>> Gerta will do. Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
>
> Eh?! I thought the non-rhotic use of "r" to indicate vowel quality
> drove you up the wall.
expects others to follow.
--
athel
Guy Barry
Jul 11, 2014, 4:53:45 AM7/11/14
to
"Athel Cornish-Bowden" wrote in message
news:c29mkj...@mid.individual.net...
Unless he actually uses an "r" sound in "Goethe".
--
Guy Barry
news:c29mkj...@mid.individual.net...
--
Guy Barry
James Hogg
Jul 11, 2014, 4:57:29 AM7/11/14
to
Once wrote of the sorrows of Werther,
Who loved Fr�ulein Lotte
Though Albert had got her.
He shot himself rather than hurt her.
--
James
the Omrud
Jul 11, 2014, 5:17:47 AM7/11/14
to
drive through Slough. And even when singing in Brenda's cosy little
chapel (which I have done from time to time), I find that Slough
benefits from a dirty great bypass with blue signs.
--
David
J. J. Lodder
Jul 11, 2014, 7:32:21 AM7/11/14
to
<dbrich...@lbl.gov> wrote:
> I hope you're all well & in good spirits.
>
> There are many names I often encounter as text, though I hear them rarely
> in speech. Hence, I don't know how they are usually pronounced.
>
> Not so long ago, I was chatting with an American and a German physicist.
> The American used the name "Einstein" (speaking of the "Bose-Einstein
> condensate"). The German continued the conversation, pronouncing the name
> "Einstein" as if it were spelled "Ein-shtein", the German pronunciation
> (and I assume the way the great physicist pronounced his own name.) I felt
> a moment's discomfort as I had to decide which of these pronunciations I
> would use. I chose the American pronunciation, since it seemed most
> natural to me.
In general I try to pronounce foreign names
> I hope you're all well & in good spirits.
>
> There are many names I often encounter as text, though I hear them rarely
> in speech. Hence, I don't know how they are usually pronounced.
>
> Not so long ago, I was chatting with an American and a German physicist.
> The American used the name "Einstein" (speaking of the "Bose-Einstein
> condensate"). The German continued the conversation, pronouncing the name
> "Einstein" as if it were spelled "Ein-shtein", the German pronunciation
> (and I assume the way the great physicist pronounced his own name.) I felt
> a moment's discomfort as I had to decide which of these pronunciations I
> would use. I chose the American pronunciation, since it seemed most
> natural to me.
as they are in the original language,
So Einstein as Einstein himself.
I admit though to having no idea at all
as to how Bose should be pronounced, by the rules of Bose,
so for convenience I treat him as if he were a German too.
> Well, my invitation questions are these (please answer only the ones that
inte rest you):
> 1. What principles do you use in pronouncing names whose pronunciation is unce
rtain to you or frequently varied?
>
rtain to you or frequently varied?
>
> 2. What are some names whose pronunciation you have wondered about (and how do
members of the AUE community pronounce them)?
>
members of the AUE community pronounce them)?
>
> 3. Do you feel that one should attempt to pronounce a foreign name as it would
be pronounced by native speakers? Or do you prefer generally-accepted
anglicized pronunciations?
>
be pronounced by native speakers? Or do you prefer generally-accepted
anglicized pronunciations?
>
> 4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
>
> Nietzsche
>
> Nietzsche
> Proust
> Kant
> Einstein
> Keynes
> Kierkegaard
> Sartre
> Rodin
> Le Corbusier
I would love to pretend to being able to pronounced Kierkegaard
> Kant
> Einstein
> Keynes
> Kierkegaard
> Sartre
> Rodin
> Le Corbusier
the Danish way, but I know it's impossible,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
Jul 11, 2014, 7:32:21 AM7/11/14
to
Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> On 2014-07-10 21:27:20 +0000, Oliver Cromm said:
>
> > * Stefan Ram:
> >
> >> Some Germans
> >> do this too, pronouncing the English word �staff� using
> >> German rules, so that it sounds like the English �stuff�.
> >
> > Using German rules, "staff" might sound like English "shtuff", but
> > not like "stuff".
> >
> > But maybe these people only use "German rules" for the <a>, not
> > the <st>? Well, then I doubt they are actually using German rules;
> > more likely they are unclear about the differences between German
> > /a/ and English /&/. Other Germans use /E/ in place of /&/.
>
> I find van Gogh to be among the most difficult. Americans seem to
> ignore the gh entirely, but many British people seem to treat it as
> /x/. I don't think anyone who isn't Dutch makes a serious attempt at
> the first G.
Most Dutch don't either.
> On 2014-07-10 21:27:20 +0000, Oliver Cromm said:
>
> > * Stefan Ram:
> >
> >> Some Germans
> >> do this too, pronouncing the English word �staff� using
> >> German rules, so that it sounds like the English �stuff�.
> >
> > Using German rules, "staff" might sound like English "shtuff", but
> > not like "stuff".
> >
> > But maybe these people only use "German rules" for the <a>, not
> > the <st>? Well, then I doubt they are actually using German rules;
> > more likely they are unclear about the differences between German
> > /a/ and English /&/. Other Germans use /E/ in place of /&/.
>
> I find van Gogh to be among the most difficult. Americans seem to
> ignore the gh entirely, but many British people seem to treat it as
> /x/. I don't think anyone who isn't Dutch makes a serious attempt at
> the first G.
Especially so in the southern dialects, (Brabant, Limburg)
which is where Van Gogh came from.
The exaggerated pronunciation (hard G, gh as hard ch)
serves mostly to terrorise foreigners.
> We're off to Arles today, so no doubt I'll come back with
> a better idea of how the French pronounce it: probably more or less
> like Americans.
even if they wanted to.
The French will probably pronounce it like their given name 'Yann',
which is about right,
Jan
Adam Funk
Jul 11, 2014, 7:54:57 AM7/11/14
to
On 2014-07-11, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> I find van Gogh to be among the most difficult. Americans seem to
>> ignore the gh entirely, but many British people seem to treat it as
>> /x/. I don't think anyone who isn't Dutch makes a serious attempt at
>> the first G.
>
> Most Dutch don't either.
> Especially so in the southern dialects, (Brabant, Limburg)
> which is where Van Gogh came from.
> The exaggerated pronunciation (hard G, gh as hard ch)
> serves mostly to terrorise foreigners.
Not that I can properly appreciate it, but Dutch/Flemish is supposed
to have an amazing dialect variety for the surface area where it's
used.
--
...the reason why so many professional artists drink a lot is not
necessarily very much to do with the artistic temperament, etc. It is
simply that they can afford to, because they can normally take a large
part of a day off to deal with the ravages. [Amis _On Drink_]
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> I find van Gogh to be among the most difficult. Americans seem to
>> ignore the gh entirely, but many British people seem to treat it as
>> /x/. I don't think anyone who isn't Dutch makes a serious attempt at
>> the first G.
>
> Most Dutch don't either.
> Especially so in the southern dialects, (Brabant, Limburg)
> which is where Van Gogh came from.
> The exaggerated pronunciation (hard G, gh as hard ch)
> serves mostly to terrorise foreigners.
to have an amazing dialect variety for the surface area where it's
used.
--
...the reason why so many professional artists drink a lot is not
necessarily very much to do with the artistic temperament, etc. It is
simply that they can afford to, because they can normally take a large
part of a day off to deal with the ravages. [Amis _On Drink_]
Adam Funk
Jul 11, 2014, 7:46:04 AM7/11/14
to
On 2014-07-11, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2014-07-11 08:22:21 +0000, Adam Funk said:
>
>> On 2014-07-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:03:29 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
>>>> Mössbauer. Usually I manage some compromise between the Scylla of
> On 2014-07-11 08:22:21 +0000, Adam Funk said:
>
>> On 2014-07-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:03:29 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
>>>> conspicuous & perhaps incompetent intrusion of foreign phonology and the
>>>> Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe I am
>>>> flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
>>>> sentence.
>>>
>>> Gerta will do. Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
>>
>> Eh?! I thought the non-rhotic use of "r" to indicate vowel quality
>> drove you up the wall.
>
> I thought that as well, but I think he's exempt from the rules he
> expects others to follow.
Well there's a surprise!
>>>> Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe I am
>>>> flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
>>>> sentence.
>>>
>>> Gerta will do. Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
>>
>> Eh?! I thought the non-rhotic use of "r" to indicate vowel quality
>> drove you up the wall.
>
> I thought that as well, but I think he's exempt from the rules he
> expects others to follow.
--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
Jack Campin
Jul 11, 2014, 9:02:40 AM7/11/14
to
>> I pronounce Turkish names like a TRT announcer, Maori names the
>> way I learned from William Ngata's "Let's Learn Maori",
> I think that would be Bruce Biggs' "Let's Learn Maori", no? Do you
> have the records or tapes that once existed to go with it?
> Or maybe you're talking about some work with a similar name by
> Wiremu Tuakana (William) Ngata, or even Apirana Ngata (whose name
> appeared on the cover of a popular introduction to Maori which was
> actually largely the work of Mother Suzanne Aubert)?
It was an EP my father bought in 1958, definitely William Ngata
(Sir Apirana's nephew). First part of set but we never got the
others. It must have been out of print for a very long time. He
was definitely William rather than Wiremu on the sleeve.
I drove my parents nuts playing it over and over and over again.
Wish I'd had the opportunity to learn the language properly.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
>> way I learned from William Ngata's "Let's Learn Maori",
> I think that would be Bruce Biggs' "Let's Learn Maori", no? Do you
> have the records or tapes that once existed to go with it?
> Or maybe you're talking about some work with a similar name by
> Wiremu Tuakana (William) Ngata, or even Apirana Ngata (whose name
> appeared on the cover of a popular introduction to Maori which was
> actually largely the work of Mother Suzanne Aubert)?
It was an EP my father bought in 1958, definitely William Ngata
(Sir Apirana's nephew). First part of set but we never got the
others. It must have been out of print for a very long time. He
was definitely William rather than Wiremu on the sleeve.
I drove my parents nuts playing it over and over and over again.
Wish I'd had the opportunity to learn the language properly.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Jack Campin
Jul 11, 2014, 9:19:20 AM7/11/14
to
>> "keens" for Milton Keynes (town)
>> "canes" for the economist
>> "canes" for the economist
> If their orchestra hadn't been the one on the recordings of (Sterndale)
> Bennett's piano concertos, I would never have heard of the town, so
> its pronunciation was as immaterial to me as that of Slough.
You are obviously not into athletics. My ex-wife's younger daughter
> Bennett's piano concertos, I would never have heard of the town, so
> its pronunciation was as immaterial to me as that of Slough.
was for a time an aspiring gymnastic star. She travelled every
summer from her home in Croatia to train in Milton Keynes, which was
apparently something like the capital of European gymnastics, and I
think it's the only place in England she's ever visited. (She got an
attack of common sense sometime before puberty and doesn't do that
stuff any more).
I think I've been through both Milton Keynes and Slough on the train
and didn't feel tempted to get off at either. I could say the same
about Philadelphia and Newark, NJ.
I thought Jasper Fforde's "Nursery Crime" series was set in either
Milton Keynes or Slough. I misremembered. It's a town nearby with
an equally confusing pronunciation:
http://www.jasperfforde.com/nurserycrime/
Tony Cooper
Jul 11, 2014, 12:04:54 PM7/11/14
to
On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 10:17:47 +0100, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
wrote:
I actually understood the above. I understand it well enough to know
that the traveler from Warrington to the London area would not
normally go through Slough, and it is thus surprising that some would.
I'm not sure what chapel is meant, but I do know who "Brenda" stands
for.
This is almost distressing. The compartments in the mind can only
hold so much information. Excessive information spills out and is
lost. Since I have not traveled that route, never touched foot to
ground in either Warrington or Slough, or attended a choir's
performance in the UK, the information needed to process this post has
been added by reading this newsgroup.
This means that some - perhaps vital - information has been squeezed
out of the compartments. It may be that I will be unable to remember
some bus route in Indianapolis in the mid-1950s, the rules of some
child's game played in the early 1950s, or how "Goethe" (street) was
pronounced in Chicago when I lived there. (Not that I expect that the
pronunciation changed immediately after my move to Florida.)
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
wrote:
that the traveler from Warrington to the London area would not
normally go through Slough, and it is thus surprising that some would.
I'm not sure what chapel is meant, but I do know who "Brenda" stands
for.
This is almost distressing. The compartments in the mind can only
hold so much information. Excessive information spills out and is
lost. Since I have not traveled that route, never touched foot to
ground in either Warrington or Slough, or attended a choir's
performance in the UK, the information needed to process this post has
been added by reading this newsgroup.
This means that some - perhaps vital - information has been squeezed
out of the compartments. It may be that I will be unable to remember
some bus route in Indianapolis in the mid-1950s, the rules of some
child's game played in the early 1950s, or how "Goethe" (street) was
pronounced in Chicago when I lived there. (Not that I expect that the
pronunciation changed immediately after my move to Florida.)
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
LFS
Jul 11, 2014, 12:08:04 PM7/11/14
to
--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 11, 2014, 12:34:18 PM7/11/14
to
On Thursday, July 10, 2014 11:48:42 PM UTC-4, Ross wrote:
It was one of the options offered to us in school, and also instructions
for pronouncing the vowel on its own can be like "say er but leave off
the r."
> >Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
>
> As in "go thy way"?
No. Lots of folk around here don't take kindly to any sort of phonetic
representation.
> On Friday, July 11, 2014 3:15:51 PM UTC+12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:03:29 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
> > > Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
> > > Mössbauer. Usually I manage some compromise between the Scylla of
> > > conspicuous & perhaps incompetent intrusion of foreign phonology and the
> > > Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe I am
> > > flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
> > > sentence.
> > Gerta will do.
>
> Better for the non-rhotics. I certainly wouldn't say it that way.
> > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:03:29 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
> > > Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
> > > Mössbauer. Usually I manage some compromise between the Scylla of
> > > conspicuous & perhaps incompetent intrusion of foreign phonology and the
> > > Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe I am
> > > flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
> > > sentence.
> > Gerta will do.
>
It was one of the options offered to us in school, and also instructions
for pronouncing the vowel on its own can be like "say er but leave off
the r."
> >Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
>
No. Lots of folk around here don't take kindly to any sort of phonetic
representation.
musika
Jul 11, 2014, 12:39:13 PM7/11/14
to
On 11/07/2014 17:04, Tony Cooper wrote:
> I actually understood the above. I understand it well enough to know
> that the traveler from Warrington to the London area would not
> normally go through Slough, and it is thus surprising that some would.
> I'm not sure what chapel is meant, but I do know who "Brenda" stands
> for.
The chapel mentioned is St. George's Chapel in Windsor Castle. One of
> that the traveler from Warrington to the London area would not
> normally go through Slough, and it is thus surprising that some would.
> I'm not sure what chapel is meant, but I do know who "Brenda" stands
> for.
the royal residences.
--
Ray
UK
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 11, 2014, 12:39:54 PM7/11/14
to
On Friday, July 11, 2014 4:22:21 AM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2014-07-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:03:29 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
> >> Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
> >> Mössbauer. Usually I manage some compromise between the Scylla of
> >> conspicuous & perhaps incompetent intrusion of foreign phonology and the
> >> Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe I am
> >> flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
> >> sentence.
> > Gerta will do. Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
>
> Eh?! I thought the non-rhotic use of "r" to indicate vowel quality
> drove you up the wall.
The "r" is pronounced. People who haven't learned German (or French)
> On 2014-07-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:03:29 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
> >> Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
> >> Mössbauer. Usually I manage some compromise between the Scylla of
> >> conspicuous & perhaps incompetent intrusion of foreign phonology and the
> >> Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe I am
> >> flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
> >> sentence.
> > Gerta will do. Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
>
> Eh?! I thought the non-rhotic use of "r" to indicate vowel quality
> drove you up the wall.
can't do better.
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 11, 2014, 12:41:23 PM7/11/14
to
On Friday, July 11, 2014 4:23:56 AM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2014-07-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 4:15:32 PM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> "keens" for Milton Keynes (town)
> >> "canes" for the economist
> >> I don't know why.
> > If their orchestra hadn't been the one on the recordings of (Sterndale)
> > Bennett's piano concertos, I would never have heard of the town, so
> > its pronunciation was as immaterial to me as that of Slough.
>
> I can remember how to pronounce that because of Betjeman.
We did that one last time, and I mentioned all the Laureates I'd heard of.
> On 2014-07-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 4:15:32 PM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> "keens" for Milton Keynes (town)
> >> "canes" for the economist
> >> I don't know why.
> > If their orchestra hadn't been the one on the recordings of (Sterndale)
> > Bennett's piano concertos, I would never have heard of the town, so
> > its pronunciation was as immaterial to me as that of Slough.
>
> I can remember how to pronounce that because of Betjeman.
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 11, 2014, 12:46:52 PM7/11/14
to
On Friday, July 11, 2014 7:46:04 AM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2014-07-11, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > On 2014-07-11 08:22:21 +0000, Adam Funk said:
> >> On 2014-07-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
[guidance in pronouncing "Goethe"]
> On 2014-07-11, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > On 2014-07-11 08:22:21 +0000, Adam Funk said:
> >> On 2014-07-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>> Gerta will do. Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
> >> Eh?! I thought the non-rhotic use of "r" to indicate vowel quality
> >> drove you up the wall.
> > I thought that as well, but I think he's exempt from the rules he
> > expects others to follow.
> Well there's a surprise!
Lest you're going to keep up this bullshit _after_ you see my reply
> >> Eh?! I thought the non-rhotic use of "r" to indicate vowel quality
> >> drove you up the wall.
> > I thought that as well, but I think he's exempt from the rules he
> > expects others to follow.
> Well there's a surprise!
to the first slander, I'll say it again:
The "r" is pronounced. By thouse who have not learned German (or French).
Paul Wolff
Jul 11, 2014, 2:03:08 PM7/11/14
to
On Fri, 11 Jul 2014, Jack Campin <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> posted:
the Radnor Road page. Glad to see the commemorative road-sign though.
--
Paul
>>> "keens" for Milton Keynes (town)
>>> "canes" for the economist
>> If their orchestra hadn't been the one on the recordings of (Sterndale)
>> Bennett's piano concertos, I would never have heard of the town, so
>> its pronunciation was as immaterial to me as that of Slough.
>
>You are obviously not into athletics. My ex-wife's younger daughter
>was for a time an aspiring gymnastic star. She travelled every
>summer from her home in Croatia to train in Milton Keynes, which was
>apparently something like the capital of European gymnastics, and I
>think it's the only place in England she's ever visited. (She got an
>attack of common sense sometime before puberty and doesn't do that
>stuff any more).
>
>I think I've been through both Milton Keynes and Slough on the train
>and didn't feel tempted to get off at either. I could say the same
>about Philadelphia and Newark, NJ.
>
>I thought Jasper Fforde's "Nursery Crime" series was set in either
>Milton Keynes or Slough. I misremembered. It's a town nearby with
>an equally confusing pronunciation:
>
>http://www.jasperfforde.com/nurserycrime/
>
Excellent travelogue, but with sad memories of my unfortunate cousin on
>>> "canes" for the economist
>> If their orchestra hadn't been the one on the recordings of (Sterndale)
>> Bennett's piano concertos, I would never have heard of the town, so
>> its pronunciation was as immaterial to me as that of Slough.
>
>You are obviously not into athletics. My ex-wife's younger daughter
>was for a time an aspiring gymnastic star. She travelled every
>summer from her home in Croatia to train in Milton Keynes, which was
>apparently something like the capital of European gymnastics, and I
>think it's the only place in England she's ever visited. (She got an
>attack of common sense sometime before puberty and doesn't do that
>stuff any more).
>
>I think I've been through both Milton Keynes and Slough on the train
>and didn't feel tempted to get off at either. I could say the same
>about Philadelphia and Newark, NJ.
>
>I thought Jasper Fforde's "Nursery Crime" series was set in either
>Milton Keynes or Slough. I misremembered. It's a town nearby with
>an equally confusing pronunciation:
>
>http://www.jasperfforde.com/nurserycrime/
>
the Radnor Road page. Glad to see the commemorative road-sign though.
--
Paul
Joe Fineman
Jul 11, 2014, 2:38:46 PM7/11/14
to
Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Proust
>
> One of the easiest French names to anglicize, /prust/
However, when Robert Frost toured Israel round about 1960, it was
discovered, to the horror of journalists, that in unpointed Hebrew
"Frost" & "Proust" are spelled the same.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: The singer is the teapot. The song is the tea. :||
>> Proust
>
> One of the easiest French names to anglicize, /prust/
However, when Robert Frost toured Israel round about 1960, it was
discovered, to the horror of journalists, that in unpointed Hebrew
"Frost" & "Proust" are spelled the same.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: The singer is the teapot. The song is the tea. :||
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 11, 2014, 3:08:32 PM7/11/14
to
On Friday, July 11, 2014 2:38:46 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:
> >> Proust
> > One of the easiest French names to anglicize, /prust/
>
> However, when Robert Frost toured Israel round about 1960, it was
> discovered, to the horror of journalists, that in unpointed Hebrew
> "Frost" & "Proust" are spelled the same.
But initial /f/ isn't possible in Hebrew! He should never have been
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:
> >> Proust
> > One of the easiest French names to anglicize, /prust/
>
> However, when Robert Frost toured Israel round about 1960, it was
> discovered, to the horror of journalists, that in unpointed Hebrew
> "Frost" & "Proust" are spelled the same.
written in Hebrew without _rafe_.
Message has been deleted
Anders D. Nygaard
Jul 11, 2014, 3:51:36 PM7/11/14
to
On 11-07-2014 13:32, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> I would love to pretend to being able to pronounced Kierkegaard
> the Danish way, but I know it's impossible,
No it is not. There are about five million of us who do it.
> I would love to pretend to being able to pronounced Kierkegaard
> the Danish way, but I know it's impossible,
AFAICS the thread up until now has had good guidance on all
parts of his name, though sadly not in the same post.
KEER-ker-gore (non-rhotic) would be close.
/Anders, Denmark.
J. J. Lodder
Jul 11, 2014, 4:09:49 PM7/11/14
to
Anders D. Nygaard <news2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11-07-2014 13:32, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > I would love to pretend to being able to pronounced Kierkegaard
> > the Danish way, but I know it's impossible,
>
> No it is not. There are about five million of us who do it.
Yes, but all of you (having inside knowledge)
> On 11-07-2014 13:32, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > I would love to pretend to being able to pronounced Kierkegaard
> > the Danish way, but I know it's impossible,
>
> No it is not. There are about five million of us who do it.
don't count.
> AFAICS the thread up until now has had good guidance on all
> parts of his name, though sadly not in the same post.
are not that far apart.
> KEER-ker-gore (non-rhotic) would be close.
It is the real thing (fooling a native speaker)
that is nearly impossible,
Jan
--
"Where Chavvyout Chacer calls the cup and Pouropourim stands astirrup.
De oud huis bij de kerkegaard. So who over comes ever for Whoopee Weeks
must put up with the Jug and Chambers."
(James Joyce)
Message has been deleted
Mike L
Jul 11, 2014, 4:42:56 PM7/11/14
to
On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 20:12:53 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>On Thursday, July 10, 2014 4:15:32 PM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2014-07-10, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > said on this topic. The trickiest one in your list is Keynes, which looks
>> > like it ought to be "keens" but Brits say "kanes" so that's more appropriate;
>> > similarly for Ralph vs. Rafe Vaughan Williams.
>guest -- he probably met him, during his days in the FDR Administration
>(not Government).
Milton Keynes (which I believe _was_ "canes" before they newtowned it)
deserves worldwide recognition as the home of The Open University, one
of the great achievements of the 1960s.
--
Mike.
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>On Thursday, July 10, 2014 4:15:32 PM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2014-07-10, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 10:16:32 AM UTC-4, dbrich...@lbl.gov wrote:
>
>> >> 4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
>> >> Nietzsche
>> >> Proust
>> >> Kant
>> >> Einstein
>> >> Keynes
>> >> Kierkegaard
>> >> Sartre
>> >> Rodin
>> >> Le Corbusier
>> > I think the "van Gogh" scene in *Annie Hall* says all that needs to be
>
>> >> 4. How do you pronounce the following names, if you ever do?
>> >> Nietzsche
>> >> Proust
>> >> Kant
>> >> Einstein
>> >> Keynes
>> >> Kierkegaard
>> >> Sartre
>> >> Rodin
>> >> Le Corbusier
>> > said on this topic. The trickiest one in your list is Keynes, which looks
>> > like it ought to be "keens" but Brits say "kanes" so that's more appropriate;
>> > similarly for Ralph vs. Rafe Vaughan Williams.
>>
>> "keens" for Milton Keynes (town)
>> "canes" for the economist
>> "keens" for Milton Keynes (town)
>> "canes" for the economist
>> I don't know why.
>
>
>If their orchestra hadn't been the one on the recordings of (Sterndale)
>Bennett's piano concertos, I would never have heard of the town, so
>its pronunciation was as immaterial to me as that of Slough.
>
>I knew "Keynesiam" because John Kenneth Galbraith was a frequent radio
>Bennett's piano concertos, I would never have heard of the town, so
>its pronunciation was as immaterial to me as that of Slough.
>
>guest -- he probably met him, during his days in the FDR Administration
>(not Government).
Milton Keynes (which I believe _was_ "canes" before they newtowned it)
deserves worldwide recognition as the home of The Open University, one
of the great achievements of the 1960s.
--
Mike.
Mike L
Jul 11, 2014, 4:47:39 PM7/11/14
to
On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 06:25:53 +0100, "Guy Barry"
<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote in message
>news:h1qtr9thqkpgotbhf...@4ax.com...
>>
>>On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 17:52:05 +0100, "Guy Barry"
>><guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote in message
>>>news:kjgtr99oadsfc9sv3...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>>A political acquaintance of a coworker of mine some years ago caused
>>>>great amusement when while holding forth on economics he referred to the
>>>>economist Milton Keynes. Perhaps he meant JM Friedman.
>>>
>>>Or perhaps he was referencing "Yes Minister":
>>>
>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgUemV4brDU
>>
>>I don't think so. I can't recall specific dates, but my coworker had
>>ceased to be a coworker before Yes Minister was broadcast. So I'd have
>>heard the story in the 1970s.
>
>Then maybe Yes Minister was referencing him.
Or the Oxford Etceteras, who did a sketch fielding an economist of
that name in about '71.
--
Mike.
<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote in message
>news:h1qtr9thqkpgotbhf...@4ax.com...
>>
>>On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 17:52:05 +0100, "Guy Barry"
>><guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote in message
>>>news:kjgtr99oadsfc9sv3...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>>A political acquaintance of a coworker of mine some years ago caused
>>>>great amusement when while holding forth on economics he referred to the
>>>>economist Milton Keynes. Perhaps he meant JM Friedman.
>>>
>>>Or perhaps he was referencing "Yes Minister":
>>>
>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgUemV4brDU
>>
>>I don't think so. I can't recall specific dates, but my coworker had
>>ceased to be a coworker before Yes Minister was broadcast. So I'd have
>>heard the story in the 1970s.
>
>Then maybe Yes Minister was referencing him.
Or the Oxford Etceteras, who did a sketch fielding an economist of
that name in about '71.
--
Mike.
CDB
Jul 11, 2014, 5:19:24 PM7/11/14
to
On 11/07/2014 12:46 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Adam Funk wrote:
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
thing: when I was young and poor I got most of my classical music from
CBC radio, where they would usually identify Mozart pieces by their
"Kerschel" number, as I thought, because they pronounced "K�chel" ['kR
S@l]. That was in the days when they had someone telling announcers how
to say things, so I presume it had official sanction.
> Adam Funk wrote:
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> Adam Funk said:
>>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> [guidance in pronouncing "Goethe"]
>>>>> Gerta will do. Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
>>>> Eh?! I thought the non-rhotic use of "r" to indicate vowel
>>>> quality drove you up the wall.
>>> I thought that as well, but I think he's exempt from the rules he
>>> expects others to follow.
>> Well there's a surprise!
> Lest you're going to keep up this bullshit _after_ you see my reply
> to the first slander, I'll say it again:
> The "r" is pronounced. By thouse who have not learned German (or
> French).
I've probably posted this before, but it's another example of the same
>>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> [guidance in pronouncing "Goethe"]
>>>>> Gerta will do. Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
>>>> Eh?! I thought the non-rhotic use of "r" to indicate vowel
>>>> quality drove you up the wall.
>>> I thought that as well, but I think he's exempt from the rules he
>>> expects others to follow.
>> Well there's a surprise!
> Lest you're going to keep up this bullshit _after_ you see my reply
> to the first slander, I'll say it again:
> The "r" is pronounced. By thouse who have not learned German (or
> French).
thing: when I was young and poor I got most of my classical music from
CBC radio, where they would usually identify Mozart pieces by their
"Kerschel" number, as I thought, because they pronounced "K�chel" ['kR
S@l]. That was in the days when they had someone telling announcers how
to say things, so I presume it had official sanction.
Ross
Jul 11, 2014, 5:33:25 PM7/11/14
to
On Saturday, July 12, 2014 4:34:18 AM UTC+12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, July 10, 2014 11:48:42 PM UTC-4, Ross wrote:
> > On Friday, July 11, 2014 3:15:51 PM UTC+12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:03:29 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
>
> > > > Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
> > > > Mössbauer. Usually I manage some compromise between the Scylla of
> > > > conspicuous & perhaps incompetent intrusion of foreign phonology and the
> > > > Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe I am
> > > > flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
> > > > sentence.
>
> > > Gerta will do.
>
> > Better for the non-rhotics. I certainly wouldn't say it that way.
>
> It was one of the options offered to us in school, and also instructions
> for pronouncing the vowel on its own can be like "say er but leave off
> the r."
Your school would probably have had a certain number of non-rhotics anyway,
> On Thursday, July 10, 2014 11:48:42 PM UTC-4, Ross wrote:
> > On Friday, July 11, 2014 3:15:51 PM UTC+12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:03:29 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
>
> > > > Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
> > > > Mössbauer. Usually I manage some compromise between the Scylla of
> > > > conspicuous & perhaps incompetent intrusion of foreign phonology and the
> > > > Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe I am
> > > > flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
> > > > sentence.
>
> > > Gerta will do.
>
> > Better for the non-rhotics. I certainly wouldn't say it that way.
>
> It was one of the options offered to us in school, and also instructions
> for pronouncing the vowel on its own can be like "say er but leave off
> the r."
right?
>
> > >Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
>
> > As in "go thy way"?
>
> No. Lots of folk around here don't take kindly to any sort of phonetic
> representation.
So more like "GOATHee"?
> > >Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
>
> > As in "go thy way"?
>
> No. Lots of folk around here don't take kindly to any sort of phonetic
> representation.
Jerry Friedman
Jul 11, 2014, 5:44:52 PM7/11/14
to
On 7/11/14 1:08 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, July 11, 2014 2:38:46 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>>>> Proust
>>> One of the easiest French names to anglicize, /prust/
>>
>> However, when Robert Frost toured Israel round about 1960, it was
>> discovered, to the horror of journalists, that in unpointed Hebrew
>> "Frost" & "Proust" are spelled the same.
Surely a Hebrew article on someone with a non-Hebrew name should give it
> On Friday, July 11, 2014 2:38:46 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>>>> Proust
>>> One of the easiest French names to anglicize, /prust/
>>
>> However, when Robert Frost toured Israel round about 1960, it was
>> discovered, to the horror of journalists, that in unpointed Hebrew
>> "Frost" & "Proust" are spelled the same.
with the vowel points.
> But initial /f/ isn't possible in Hebrew! He should never have been
> written in Hebrew without _rafe_.
Hebrew Wikipedia. See
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%98
a disambiguation page that lists both Robert and Marcel, not to mention
a businessman named Philip Frost, with the first and last letters of his
name identical. (Hey, that's interesting--they show a final /p/ by not
using a _fe sofit_.) If you look at the article on Robert, you won't
see a _rafeh_.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mack A. Damia
Jul 11, 2014, 5:58:45 PM7/11/14
to
--
Message has been deleted
Ross
Jul 11, 2014, 6:08:46 PM7/11/14
to
On Saturday, July 12, 2014 1:02:40 AM UTC+12, Jack Campin wrote:
> >> I pronounce Turkish names like a TRT announcer, Maori names the
> >> way I learned from William Ngata's "Let's Learn Maori",
> > I think that would be Bruce Biggs' "Let's Learn Maori", no? Do you
> > have the records or tapes that once existed to go with it?
> > Or maybe you're talking about some work with a similar name by
> > Wiremu Tuakana (William) Ngata, or even Apirana Ngata (whose name
> > appeared on the cover of a popular introduction to Maori which was
> > actually largely the work of Mother Suzanne Aubert)?
>
> It was an EP my father bought in 1958, definitely William Ngata
> (Sir Apirana's nephew). First part of set but we never got the
> others. It must have been out of print for a very long time. He
> was definitely William rather than Wiremu on the sleeve.
>
> I drove my parents nuts playing it over and over and over again.
>
> Wish I'd had the opportunity to learn the language properly.
>
By golly, you're right -- though 1958 seems a little early:
> >> I pronounce Turkish names like a TRT announcer, Maori names the
> >> way I learned from William Ngata's "Let's Learn Maori",
> > I think that would be Bruce Biggs' "Let's Learn Maori", no? Do you
> > have the records or tapes that once existed to go with it?
> > Or maybe you're talking about some work with a similar name by
> > Wiremu Tuakana (William) Ngata, or even Apirana Ngata (whose name
> > appeared on the cover of a popular introduction to Maori which was
> > actually largely the work of Mother Suzanne Aubert)?
>
> It was an EP my father bought in 1958, definitely William Ngata
> (Sir Apirana's nephew). First part of set but we never got the
> others. It must have been out of print for a very long time. He
> was definitely William rather than Wiremu on the sleeve.
>
> I drove my parents nuts playing it over and over and over again.
>
> Wish I'd had the opportunity to learn the language properly.
>
Let's learn Māori [sound recording]
By Ngata, W. T.
Published Wellington : Kiwi Records, [1967?]
6 sound discs : analog, 45 rpm ; 7 in.
Table of ContentsLesson 1: Pronunciation
Lesson 2: The simple sentence
Lesson 3: The negative sentence
Lesson 4: Counting
Lesson 5: Noun and pronoun
Lesson 6: The verb.
(from the National Union Catalogue)
I don't have these, nor does our library. Ngata also seems to have published
a book of this name at the same (uncertain) date, which would be a couple
of years before Biggs' book of the same name. Must look further into this.
R H Draney
Jul 11, 2014, 6:32:01 PM7/11/14
to
Steve Hayes filted:
>
>On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 19:52:12 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>>(Please do add to the list)
>
>Einstein, Feinstein, Weinstein, Neon Sign.
Fettucine, linguini, martini, bikini:
http://youtu.be/LVx6lp5IC6o
....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
>
>On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 19:52:12 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>>(Please do add to the list)
>
>Einstein, Feinstein, Weinstein, Neon Sign.
Fettucine, linguini, martini, bikini:
http://youtu.be/LVx6lp5IC6o
....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
Ross
Jul 11, 2014, 9:07:38 PM7/11/14
to
On Saturday, July 12, 2014 10:08:46 AM UTC+12, Ross wrote:
> On Saturday, July 12, 2014 1:02:40 AM UTC+12, Jack Campin wrote:
> > >> I pronounce Turkish names like a TRT announcer, Maori names the
> > >> way I learned from William Ngata's "Let's Learn Maori",
> > > I think that would be Bruce Biggs' "Let's Learn Maori", no? Do you
> > > have the records or tapes that once existed to go with it?
> > > Or maybe you're talking about some work with a similar name by
> > > Wiremu Tuakana (William) Ngata, or even Apirana Ngata (whose name
> > > appeared on the cover of a popular introduction to Maori which was
> > > actually largely the work of Mother Suzanne Aubert)?
>
> > It was an EP my father bought in 1958, definitely William Ngata
> > (Sir Apirana's nephew). First part of set but we never got the
> > others. It must have been out of print for a very long time. He
> > was definitely William rather than Wiremu on the sleeve.
>
> > I drove my parents nuts playing it over and over and over again.
> > Wish I'd had the opportunity to learn the language properly.
>
> By golly, you're right -- though 1958 seems a little early:
Not a bit! Found the records, advertised and reviewed, in 1958
> On Saturday, July 12, 2014 1:02:40 AM UTC+12, Jack Campin wrote:
> > >> I pronounce Turkish names like a TRT announcer, Maori names the
> > >> way I learned from William Ngata's "Let's Learn Maori",
> > > I think that would be Bruce Biggs' "Let's Learn Maori", no? Do you
> > > have the records or tapes that once existed to go with it?
> > > Or maybe you're talking about some work with a similar name by
> > > Wiremu Tuakana (William) Ngata, or even Apirana Ngata (whose name
> > > appeared on the cover of a popular introduction to Maori which was
> > > actually largely the work of Mother Suzanne Aubert)?
>
> > It was an EP my father bought in 1958, definitely William Ngata
> > (Sir Apirana's nephew). First part of set but we never got the
> > others. It must have been out of print for a very long time. He
> > was definitely William rather than Wiremu on the sleeve.
>
> > I drove my parents nuts playing it over and over and over again.
> > Wish I'd had the opportunity to learn the language properly.
>
> By golly, you're right -- though 1958 seems a little early:
issues of _Te Ao Hou_ (magazine published by the Maori Affairs Department).
"His diction is slow, clear and precise and is presented in such a way
that even children in the primary school classes can follow with the
greatest ease...." (Review by Hemi Bennett in July 1958 issue).
Robert Bannister
Jul 11, 2014, 11:27:40 PM7/11/14
to
On 11/07/2014 1:49 pm, Ross wrote:
> On Friday, July 11, 2014 5:37:50 PM UTC+12, Guy Barry wrote:
>> "Jack Campin" wrote in message
>> news:bogus-AC05CD....@four.schnuerpel.eu...
>>> called Ralph but none of them said "Rafe". So I say "Ralph". I
>>> doubt RVW would have cared, he wasn't a fusspot about trivia.
>>
>> I knew one at school (he was actually a distant relative of Ralph Vaughan
>> Williams). I think it's an almost exclusively upper-class pronunciation.
>
> That agrees with what I've heard. The late ethnobiologist Ralph Bulmer was
> always "Rafe", though I don't know much about his class/family background.
>
> Of course there's the fun in "HMS Pinafore" with Ralph Rackstraw, ostensibly
> a common sailor, being called "Rafe" throughout, an anomaly which is
> "explained" when his patrician birth is revealed at the end.
>
Is that mentioned in the stage directions, or is it just something
continued from d'Oyly Carte?
--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia
> On Friday, July 11, 2014 5:37:50 PM UTC+12, Guy Barry wrote:
>> "Jack Campin" wrote in message
>> news:bogus-AC05CD....@four.schnuerpel.eu...
>>
>>>> The trickiest one in your list is Keynes, which looks like it
>>>> ought to be "keens" but Brits say "kanes" so that's more
>>>> appropriate; similarly for Ralph vs. Rafe Vaughan Williams.
>>
>>> "Rafe" always sounds pretentious to me - I haven't met many people
>>>> The trickiest one in your list is Keynes, which looks like it
>>>> ought to be "keens" but Brits say "kanes" so that's more
>>>> appropriate; similarly for Ralph vs. Rafe Vaughan Williams.
>>
>>> called Ralph but none of them said "Rafe". So I say "Ralph". I
>>> doubt RVW would have cared, he wasn't a fusspot about trivia.
>>
>> I knew one at school (he was actually a distant relative of Ralph Vaughan
>> Williams). I think it's an almost exclusively upper-class pronunciation.
>
> That agrees with what I've heard. The late ethnobiologist Ralph Bulmer was
> always "Rafe", though I don't know much about his class/family background.
>
> Of course there's the fun in "HMS Pinafore" with Ralph Rackstraw, ostensibly
> a common sailor, being called "Rafe" throughout, an anomaly which is
> "explained" when his patrician birth is revealed at the end.
>
Is that mentioned in the stage directions, or is it just something
continued from d'Oyly Carte?
--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia
Robert Bannister
Jul 11, 2014, 11:33:49 PM7/11/14
to
On 11/07/2014 12:14 am, James Silverton wrote:
> I would expect most educated English speakers would pronounce Rodin as
> [roUd&n] without trying for the French nasalization and French "r". If I
> remember, I will again ask my son, who knows Dirac's grandson, about
> pronunciation.
I agree that not many people attempt French Rs when speaking English,
but I am used to hearing a slight nasalisation of the last syllable of
Rodin or at least no final n.
> I would expect most educated English speakers would pronounce Rodin as
> [roUd&n] without trying for the French nasalization and French "r". If I
> remember, I will again ask my son, who knows Dirac's grandson, about
> pronunciation.
I agree that not many people attempt French Rs when speaking English,
but I am used to hearing a slight nasalisation of the last syllable of
Rodin or at least no final n.
Robert Bannister
Jul 11, 2014, 11:43:19 PM7/11/14
to
On 11/07/2014 2:00 pm, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> Le Corbusier
>
> le cor boosier
Now, I would have picked "kaw-boozy-ay".
>> Le Corbusier
>
> le cor boosier
Now, I would have picked "kaw-boozy-ay".
Robert Bannister
Jul 11, 2014, 11:48:17 PM7/11/14
to
On 12/07/2014 6:06 am, Stefan Ram wrote:
> The pronunciation is /'g�:t@/, and to me /@/ is a sufficient
> approximation for /�/. When you pronounce the English
> �gutturonasal�, the first two syllables are /g@t@/. Now, you
> just have to try to elongate the first vowel without a
> change of its quality. This will be /g@:t@/, not exactly
> /'g�:t@/, but close according to my ears! Another
> approximation is /gR:t@/ = �girrte�, R = schwar.
>
Isn't there a temptation for Scandinavians and Greeks to turn the first
letter into a Y [j]?
> The pronunciation is /'g�:t@/, and to me /@/ is a sufficient
> approximation for /�/. When you pronounce the English
> �gutturonasal�, the first two syllables are /g@t@/. Now, you
> just have to try to elongate the first vowel without a
> change of its quality. This will be /g@:t@/, not exactly
> /'g�:t@/, but close according to my ears! Another
> approximation is /gR:t@/ = �girrte�, R = schwar.
>
Isn't there a temptation for Scandinavians and Greeks to turn the first
letter into a Y [j]?
Robert Bannister
Jul 11, 2014, 11:49:37 PM7/11/14
to
On 11/07/2014 4:57 pm, James Hogg wrote:
> Guy Barry wrote:
>> "Athel Cornish-Bowden" wrote in message
>> news:c29mkj...@mid.individual.net...
>
> A young German poet named Goethe
> Once wrote of the sorrows of Werther,
> Who loved Fr�ulein Lotte
> Though Albert had got her.
> He shot himself rather than hurt her.
>
If only I had known that at university.
> Guy Barry wrote:
>> "Athel Cornish-Bowden" wrote in message
>> news:c29mkj...@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>> On 2014-07-11 08:22:21 +0000, Adam Funk said:
>>>
>>> On 2014-07-11 08:22:21 +0000, Adam Funk said:
>>>
>>>> On 2014-07-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:03:29 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
>>>>>> M�ssbauer. Usually I manage some compromise between the Scylla of
>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:03:29 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
>>>>>> conspicuous & perhaps incompetent intrusion of foreign phonology
>>>>>> and the
>>>>>> Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe
>>>>>> I am
>>>>>> flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
>>>>>> sentence.
>>>>>
>>>>>> and the
>>>>>> Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe
>>>>>> I am
>>>>>> flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
>>>>>> sentence.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gerta will do. Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
>>>>
>>>> Eh?! I thought the non-rhotic use of "r" to indicate vowel quality
>>>> drove you up the wall.
>>>
>>> I thought that as well, but I think he's exempt from the rules he
>>> expects others to follow.
>>
>> Unless he actually uses an "r" sound in "Goethe".
>>>>
>>>> Eh?! I thought the non-rhotic use of "r" to indicate vowel quality
>>>> drove you up the wall.
>>>
>>> I thought that as well, but I think he's exempt from the rules he
>>> expects others to follow.
>>
>
> A young German poet named Goethe
> Once wrote of the sorrows of Werther,
> Who loved Fr�ulein Lotte
> Though Albert had got her.
> He shot himself rather than hurt her.
>
If only I had known that at university.
Mack A. Damia
Jul 11, 2014, 11:49:34 PM7/11/14
to
I have also heard it referred to as "Ralphing".
Some say, "Calling Roy".
--
Ross
Jul 11, 2014, 11:56:42 PM7/11/14
to
recordings when I was a child).
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 12, 2014, 12:41:56 AM7/12/14
to
On Friday, July 11, 2014 4:42:56 PM UTC-4, Mike L wrote:
> Milton Keynes (which I believe _was_ "canes" before they newtowned it)
> deserves worldwide recognition as the home of The Open University, one
> of the great achievements of the 1960s.
I thought the point was it doesn't _have_ a home -- it's all done by
> Milton Keynes (which I believe _was_ "canes" before they newtowned it)
> deserves worldwide recognition as the home of The Open University, one
> of the great achievements of the 1960s.
correspondence, sort of like the University of Phoenix.
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 12, 2014, 12:47:39 AM7/12/14
to
On Friday, July 11, 2014 5:33:25 PM UTC-4, Ross wrote:
> On Saturday, July 12, 2014 4:34:18 AM UTC+12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 11:48:42 PM UTC-4, Ross wrote:
> > > On Friday, July 11, 2014 3:15:51 PM UTC+12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:03:29 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
> > > > > Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
> > > > > Mössbauer. Usually I manage some compromise between the Scylla of
> > > > > conspicuous & perhaps incompetent intrusion of foreign phonology and the
> > > > > Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe I am
> > > > > flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
> > > > > sentence.
> > > > Gerta will do.
> > > Better for the non-rhotics. I certainly wouldn't say it that way.
> > It was one of the options offered to us in school, and also instructions
> > for pronouncing the vowel on its own can be like "say er but leave off
> > the r."
>
> Your school would probably have had a certain number of non-rhotics anyway,
> right?
There weren't any in my class or the adjacent ones I would have known.
> On Saturday, July 12, 2014 4:34:18 AM UTC+12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 11:48:42 PM UTC-4, Ross wrote:
> > > On Friday, July 11, 2014 3:15:51 PM UTC+12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:03:29 PM UTC-4, Joe Fineman wrote:
> > > > > Similar puzzles are presented by German names with umlaut: Goethe,
> > > > > Mössbauer. Usually I manage some compromise between the Scylla of
> > > > > conspicuous & perhaps incompetent intrusion of foreign phonology and the
> > > > > Charybdis of barbaric mispronunciation; but in the case of Goethe I am
> > > > > flummoxed. There is no decent way to mention him in a spoken English
> > > > > sentence.
> > > > Gerta will do.
> > > Better for the non-rhotics. I certainly wouldn't say it that way.
> > It was one of the options offered to us in school, and also instructions
> > for pronouncing the vowel on its own can be like "say er but leave off
> > the r."
>
> Your school would probably have had a certain number of non-rhotics anyway,
> right?
Much of our student body was the children of Columbia faculty, who could
have come from anywhere.
But if you'll recall the thread about the popular misrepresentation of the
"Brooklyn" accent, you'll remember that "girl" is caricatured as "goyl,"
which wouldn't be helpful in pronouncing "Goethe." (Nor would the _actual_
"Brooklyn" pronunciation of the rhotacized shwa.)
> > > >Though the street in Chicago is go-thy.
> > > As in "go thy way"?
> > No. Lots of folk around here don't take kindly to any sort of phonetic
> > representation.
> So more like "GOATHee"?
Guy Barry
Jul 12, 2014, 1:29:10 AM7/12/14
to
"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
news:cfcab171-a5ae-4875...@googlegroups.com...
And where do you think they send out the correspondence from?
"The majority of the OU's undergraduate students are based in the United
Kingdom and principally study off-campus, but many of its courses (both
undergraduate and postgraduate) can be studied off-campus anywhere in the
world. There are a number of full-time postgraduate research students based
on the 48-hectare university campus where they use the OU facilities for
research, as well as more than 1000 members of academic and research staff
and over 2500 administrative, operational and support staff."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_University
--
Guy Barry
news:cfcab171-a5ae-4875...@googlegroups.com...
"The majority of the OU's undergraduate students are based in the United
Kingdom and principally study off-campus, but many of its courses (both
undergraduate and postgraduate) can be studied off-campus anywhere in the
world. There are a number of full-time postgraduate research students based
on the 48-hectare university campus where they use the OU facilities for
research, as well as more than 1000 members of academic and research staff
and over 2500 administrative, operational and support staff."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_University
--
Guy Barry
Tony Cooper
Jul 12, 2014, 2:12:28 AM7/12/14
to
The University of Phoenix is based out* of the Phoenix, Arizona area.
The "Central Administration" office is in Tempe, AZ and the "Online
Campus" is in Phoenix AZ. While two cities are involved, Tempe is a
city in the metropolitan area of Phoenix.
UofP is known as an online program. However, they also have physical
locations at which students attend participative classes, attend
lectures, and complete online programs. There are two UofP physical
locations in the Orlando area, and over 100 world-wide.
As I understand it, a UofP student can complete the requirements for a
degree entirely by online participation if they "attend" class by
posting a certain number of "substantive" messages. Or, they can
attend classes physically and also do some course work online.
The "home" question, though, is about whether or not a graduate feels
an association with the university. I have an association with
Indiana University and the Bloomington (IN)campus, and an association
with Northwestern University and the Evanston (IL) campus. I could
return to either campus for an alumni event and feel I've returned
"home" in a certain sense.
If I had a degree from the University of Phoenix, I don't think I
would have that same sense of association. I wouldn't return to some
office building that leases space to UofP. I certainly wouldn't feel
any association with the office in the Phoenix area that sent me
online material even if that office has all the staff you mention
above.
I don't really know if this is comparable with the Open University
program, but I suspect it's much the same. The "home" is a campus (or
whatever the UK term for that is) and not the place where the courses
are prepared and sent from no matter how much staff is in that
location.
Or, to use the aggressive question approach favored by PTD and now
Barry, "Why do you think a student would consider the administrative
office as 'home'?".
*based out of...OK, I use it, and I know not all use or understand
this usage. That's a side issue to this. I mention that I understand
this just to cover the bases.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
Steve Hayes
Jul 12, 2014, 3:29:51 AM7/12/14
to
On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 09:29:59 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>On 2014-07-10, James Silverton wrote:
>
>> On 7/10/2014 12:01 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2014-07-10 15:31:55 +0000, James Silverton said:
>
>>>> There has been comment on how Handel said his name. Since his
>>>> naturalization application is available with "George Frideric Handel",
>>>> I guess the correct pronunciation would be as apparent with an "a" as
>>>> if the German word was not umlauted but [friderIk] not the normal
>>>> English [frederIk] that many local PBS announcers seem to like.
>
>Likewike William (rather than Wilhelm) Herschel (first person to
>observe Uranus).
In the beginning God created Uranus and Gaia (Genesis 1:1).
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
>On 2014-07-10, James Silverton wrote:
>
>> On 7/10/2014 12:01 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2014-07-10 15:31:55 +0000, James Silverton said:
>
>>>> There has been comment on how Handel said his name. Since his
>>>> naturalization application is available with "George Frideric Handel",
>>>> I guess the correct pronunciation would be as apparent with an "a" as
>>>> if the German word was not umlauted but [friderIk] not the normal
>>>> English [frederIk] that many local PBS announcers seem to like.
>
>Likewike William (rather than Wilhelm) Herschel (first person to
>observe Uranus).
In the beginning God created Uranus and Gaia (Genesis 1:1).
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Guy Barry
Jul 12, 2014, 3:55:14 AM7/12/14
to
"Mike L" wrote in message
news:9si0s91hkdkpuu03s...@4ax.com...
>Milton Keynes (which I believe _was_ "canes" before they newtowned it)
I'm not entirely sure about that. I've always been under the impression
that the pronunciation is the same as the one of the village from which it
takes its name, although I can't find any evidence either way at the moment.
One article says:
"When the new city of Milton Keynes was planned in the 1960s, those
searching for a name lighted on the ancient village of Milton Keynes, which
was within the designated area and appeared to have attractive associations
with the poet and economist."
http://www.mkheritage.co.uk/tva/MKvil/moreaboutmk.html
If the pronunciation was already "canes", it would seem odd to have changed
it to "keens" if people wanted to create associations with the economist.
--
Guy Barry
news:9si0s91hkdkpuu03s...@4ax.com...
>Milton Keynes (which I believe _was_ "canes" before they newtowned it)
that the pronunciation is the same as the one of the village from which it
takes its name, although I can't find any evidence either way at the moment.
One article says:
"When the new city of Milton Keynes was planned in the 1960s, those
searching for a name lighted on the ancient village of Milton Keynes, which
was within the designated area and appeared to have attractive associations
with the poet and economist."
http://www.mkheritage.co.uk/tva/MKvil/moreaboutmk.html
If the pronunciation was already "canes", it would seem odd to have changed
it to "keens" if people wanted to create associations with the economist.
--
Guy Barry
Guy Barry
Jul 12, 2014, 4:04:34 AM7/12/14
to
"Ross" wrote in message
news:5cee23d6-9791-4439...@googlegroups.com...
>So more like "GOATHee"?
An alternative pronunciation is suggested by the following verse:
"Shake, Mulleary and Go-ethe"
I have a book-case, which is what
Many much better men have not.
There are no books inside, for books,
I am afraid, might spoil its looks.
But I’ve three busts, all second-hand,
Upon the top. You understand
I could not put them underneath–
Shake, Mulleary and Go-ethe.
Shake was a dramatist of note;
He lived by writing things to quote.
He long ago put on his shroud:
Some of his works are rather loud.
His bald-spot’s dusty, I suppose.
I know there’s dust upon his nose.
I’ll have to give each nose a sheath–
Shake, Mulleary and Go-ethe.
Mulleary’s line was quite the same;
He has more hair; but far less fame.
I would not from that fame retrench–
But he is foreign, being French.
Yet high his haughty head he heaves,
The only one done up in leaves,
They’re rather limited on wreath–
Shake, Mulleary and Go-ethe.
Go-ethe wrote in the German tongue:
He must have learned it very young.
His nose is quite a butt for scoff,
Although an inch of it is off.
He did quite nicely for the Dutch;
But here he doesn’t count for much.
They all are off their native heath–
Shake, Mulleary and Go-ethe.
They sit there, on their chests, as bland
As if they were not second-hand.
I do not know of what they think,
Nor why they never frown or wink,
But why from smiling they refrain
I think I clearly can explain:
They none of them could show much teeth–
Shake, Mulleary and Go-ethe.
- Henry Cuyler Bunner (1855-1896)
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/11/24/shakespeare-wrote-quotes/
--
Guy Barry
news:5cee23d6-9791-4439...@googlegroups.com...
>So more like "GOATHee"?
"Shake, Mulleary and Go-ethe"
I have a book-case, which is what
Many much better men have not.
There are no books inside, for books,
I am afraid, might spoil its looks.
But I’ve three busts, all second-hand,
Upon the top. You understand
I could not put them underneath–
Shake, Mulleary and Go-ethe.
Shake was a dramatist of note;
He lived by writing things to quote.
He long ago put on his shroud:
Some of his works are rather loud.
His bald-spot’s dusty, I suppose.
I know there’s dust upon his nose.
I’ll have to give each nose a sheath–
Shake, Mulleary and Go-ethe.
Mulleary’s line was quite the same;
He has more hair; but far less fame.
I would not from that fame retrench–
But he is foreign, being French.
Yet high his haughty head he heaves,
The only one done up in leaves,
They’re rather limited on wreath–
Shake, Mulleary and Go-ethe.
Go-ethe wrote in the German tongue:
He must have learned it very young.
His nose is quite a butt for scoff,
Although an inch of it is off.
He did quite nicely for the Dutch;
But here he doesn’t count for much.
They all are off their native heath–
Shake, Mulleary and Go-ethe.
They sit there, on their chests, as bland
As if they were not second-hand.
I do not know of what they think,
Nor why they never frown or wink,
But why from smiling they refrain
I think I clearly can explain:
They none of them could show much teeth–
Shake, Mulleary and Go-ethe.
- Henry Cuyler Bunner (1855-1896)
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/11/24/shakespeare-wrote-quotes/
--
Guy Barry
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