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Hoi polloi meaning upper class according to Jeopardy
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Dingbat
Sep 10, 2015, 9:15:49 PM9/10/15
to
According to Jeopardy on 9 Sep, Hoi polloi in English has the opposite of its Greek meaning. Here's an excerpt from my exchange with a friend who watched that show; how off-base or on-target are my speculations?
I gather that hoi polloi was little used in print for a time for being a term used by elites to refer to those with money but not manners or "wannabe elites" who were still influential enough to make newspapers regret calling them hoi polloi. That's not quite the opposite of the Greek meaning as Jeopardy claimed. In Greek, it meant the masses (one of its meanings in English too) with its antonym being hoi oligoi from which we get oligarchy.
OTOH, there is this example (new to me) in your reference in accordance with what Jeopardy claimed:
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/183475.html
<<some believe hoi polloi to mean 'the upper classes'; for example, this from the Chicago Daily Herald, October 1984:
Brent Musburger, whose talks with WGN are continuing, was among the hoi polloi in the rich seats.>>
To explain this usage, I'd hazard a guess that among some speakers, hoi polloi lost its disparaging connotation of affluent commoners and evolved into meaning just affluent (aka upper class).
For comparison, consider that bourgeois once meant a middle class between the elite/ nobility and commoners but later meant upper class in political usage in socialist/ communist circles.
I gather that hoi polloi was little used in print for a time for being a term used by elites to refer to those with money but not manners or "wannabe elites" who were still influential enough to make newspapers regret calling them hoi polloi. That's not quite the opposite of the Greek meaning as Jeopardy claimed. In Greek, it meant the masses (one of its meanings in English too) with its antonym being hoi oligoi from which we get oligarchy.
OTOH, there is this example (new to me) in your reference in accordance with what Jeopardy claimed:
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/183475.html
<<some believe hoi polloi to mean 'the upper classes'; for example, this from the Chicago Daily Herald, October 1984:
Brent Musburger, whose talks with WGN are continuing, was among the hoi polloi in the rich seats.>>
To explain this usage, I'd hazard a guess that among some speakers, hoi polloi lost its disparaging connotation of affluent commoners and evolved into meaning just affluent (aka upper class).
For comparison, consider that bourgeois once meant a middle class between the elite/ nobility and commoners but later meant upper class in political usage in socialist/ communist circles.
Horace LaBadie
Sep 10, 2015, 10:51:21 PM9/10/15
to
In article <b722304b-379f-4377...@googlegroups.com>,
> who were still influential enough to make newspapers regret calling
> them hoi polloi. That's not quite the opposite of the Greek meaning as
> Jeopardy claimed. In Greek, it meant the masses (one of its meanings in
> English too) with its antonym being hoi oligoi from which we get oligarchy.
> OTOH, there is this example (new to me) in your reference in accordance with
> what Jeopardy claimed:
> http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/183475.html
> <<some believe hoi polloi to mean 'the upper classes'; for example, this from
> the Chicago Daily Herald, October 1984:
> Brent Musburger, whose talks with WGN are continuing, was among the hoi
> polloi in the rich seats.>>
Or, without more context, that could mean that Musberger (a broadcast
sports reporter) was out of place in the expensive boxes.
> To explain this usage, I'd hazard a guess that among some speakers, hoi
> polloi lost its disparaging connotation of affluent commoners and evolved
> into meaning just affluent (aka upper class).
>
> For comparison, consider that bourgeois once meant a middle class between the
> elite/ nobility and commoners but later meant upper class in political usage
> in socialist/ communist circles.
The Oxford American Dictionary says simply that the application of hoi
polloi to the wealthy is incorrect, and agrees that it probably came
from a confusion with hoity-toity.
Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> According to Jeopardy on 9 Sep, Hoi polloi in English has the opposite of its
> Greek meaning. Here's an excerpt from my exchange with a friend who watched
> that show; how off-base or on-target are my speculations?
>
> I gather that hoi polloi was little used in print for a time for being a term
> used by elites to refer to those with money but not manners or "wannabe
> elites"
nouveau riche
> According to Jeopardy on 9 Sep, Hoi polloi in English has the opposite of its
> Greek meaning. Here's an excerpt from my exchange with a friend who watched
> that show; how off-base or on-target are my speculations?
>
> I gather that hoi polloi was little used in print for a time for being a term
> used by elites to refer to those with money but not manners or "wannabe
> elites"
> who were still influential enough to make newspapers regret calling
> them hoi polloi. That's not quite the opposite of the Greek meaning as
> Jeopardy claimed. In Greek, it meant the masses (one of its meanings in
> English too) with its antonym being hoi oligoi from which we get oligarchy.
> OTOH, there is this example (new to me) in your reference in accordance with
> what Jeopardy claimed:
> http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/183475.html
> <<some believe hoi polloi to mean 'the upper classes'; for example, this from
> the Chicago Daily Herald, October 1984:
> Brent Musburger, whose talks with WGN are continuing, was among the hoi
> polloi in the rich seats.>>
sports reporter) was out of place in the expensive boxes.
> To explain this usage, I'd hazard a guess that among some speakers, hoi
> polloi lost its disparaging connotation of affluent commoners and evolved
> into meaning just affluent (aka upper class).
>
> For comparison, consider that bourgeois once meant a middle class between the
> elite/ nobility and commoners but later meant upper class in political usage
> in socialist/ communist circles.
polloi to the wealthy is incorrect, and agrees that it probably came
from a confusion with hoity-toity.
Steve Hayes
Sep 10, 2015, 11:08:34 PM9/10/15
to
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 10, 2015, 11:34:11 PM9/10/15
to
On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 10:51:21 PM UTC-4, Horace LaBadie wrote:
> In article <b722304b-379f-4377...@googlegroups.com>,
> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > OTOH, there is this example (new to me) in your reference in accordance with
> > what Jeopardy claimed:
> > http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/183475.html
> > <<some believe hoi polloi to mean 'the upper classes'; for example, this from
> > the Chicago Daily Herald, October 1984:
> > Brent Musburger, whose talks with WGN are continuing, was among the hoi
> > polloi in the rich seats.>>
>
> Or, without more context, that could mean that Musberger (a broadcast
> sports reporter) was out of place in the expensive boxes.
That was the obvious intention.
> In article <b722304b-379f-4377...@googlegroups.com>,
> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > OTOH, there is this example (new to me) in your reference in accordance with
> > what Jeopardy claimed:
> > http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/183475.html
> > <<some believe hoi polloi to mean 'the upper classes'; for example, this from
> > the Chicago Daily Herald, October 1984:
> > Brent Musburger, whose talks with WGN are continuing, was among the hoi
> > polloi in the rich seats.>>
>
> Or, without more context, that could mean that Musberger (a broadcast
> sports reporter) was out of place in the expensive boxes.
Maybe the British informer doesn't know who Musberger was (is?) and what WGN is.
RH Draney
Sep 11, 2015, 1:31:33 AM9/11/15
to
On 9/10/2015 6:15 PM, Dingbat wrote:
> According to Jeopardy on 9 Sep, Hoi polloi in English has the opposite of its Greek meaning. Here's an excerpt from my exchange with a friend who watched that show; how off-base or on-target are my speculations?
>
> I gather that hoi polloi was little used in print for a time for being a term used by elites to refer to those with money but not manners or "wannabe elites" who were still influential enough to make newspapers regret calling them hoi polloi. That's not quite the opposite of the Greek meaning as Jeopardy claimed. In Greek, it meant the masses (one of its meanings in English too) with its antonym being hoi oligoi from which we get oligarchy.
For further reference, the program on 9 September was a repeat of one
> According to Jeopardy on 9 Sep, Hoi polloi in English has the opposite of its Greek meaning. Here's an excerpt from my exchange with a friend who watched that show; how off-base or on-target are my speculations?
>
> I gather that hoi polloi was little used in print for a time for being a term used by elites to refer to those with money but not manners or "wannabe elites" who were still influential enough to make newspapers regret calling them hoi polloi. That's not quite the opposite of the Greek meaning as Jeopardy claimed. In Greek, it meant the masses (one of its meanings in English too) with its antonym being hoi oligoi from which we get oligarchy.
from 11 February...the clue, in the category "Foreign Words and
Phrases", read:
This 2-word Greek phrase
means the common people,
but it has been
improperly used to mean
the upper crust of society
None of the contestants was able to come up with the desired response....r
Steve Hayes
Sep 11, 2015, 4:13:14 AM9/11/15
to
On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 05:12:44 +0200, Dingbat wrote:
>For comparison, consider that bourgeois once meant a middle class
>between the elite/ nobility and commoners but later meant upper class
>in political usage in socialist/ communist circles.
Never did mean upper class, least of all to communists.
>For comparison, consider that bourgeois once meant a middle class
>between the elite/ nobility and commoners but later meant upper class
>in political usage in socialist/ communist circles.
occam
Sep 11, 2015, 6:34:45 AM9/11/15
to
On 11/09/2015 07:31, RH Draney wrote:
>
> For further reference, the program on 9 September was a repeat of one
> from 11 February...the clue, in the category "Foreign Words and
> Phrases", read:
>
> This 2-word Greek phrase
> means the common people,
> but it has been
> improperly used to mean
> the upper crust of society
>
> None of the contestants was able to come up with the desired response....r
>
To be expected from the hoi polloi ('οἱ πολλοί'). How can anyone
>
> For further reference, the program on 9 September was a repeat of one
> from 11 February...the clue, in the category "Foreign Words and
> Phrases", read:
>
> This 2-word Greek phrase
> means the common people,
> but it has been
> improperly used to mean
> the upper crust of society
>
> None of the contestants was able to come up with the desired response....r
>
misinterpret 'the many' as upper crust?
![Peter Duncanson [BrE]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjU1GGYFBCZgBCNB-pRgkosMu-ej0qpnECw3jc8uGYOTiF8a=s40-c)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Sep 11, 2015, 6:50:02 AM9/11/15
to
>For comparison, consider that bourgeois once meant a middle class between the elite/ nobility and commoners but later meant upper class in political usage in socialist/ communist circles.
Did communist theorists distinguish between middle and upper class, or
did they lump them all into the one category, "bourgeois"?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 11, 2015, 8:31:35 AM9/11/15
to
On Friday, September 11, 2015 at 1:31:33 AM UTC-4, RH Draney wrote:
> On 9/10/2015 6:15 PM, Dingbat wrote:
> > According to Jeopardy on 9 Sep, Hoi polloi in English has the opposite of its Greek meaning. Here's an excerpt from my exchange with a friend who watched that show; how off-base or on-target are my speculations?
That's not in fact what the clue reported below says.
> On 9/10/2015 6:15 PM, Dingbat wrote:
> > According to Jeopardy on 9 Sep, Hoi polloi in English has the opposite of its Greek meaning. Here's an excerpt from my exchange with a friend who watched that show; how off-base or on-target are my speculations?
> > I gather that hoi polloi was little used in print for a time for being a term used by elites to refer to those with money but not manners or "wannabe elites" who were still influential enough to make newspapers regret calling them hoi polloi. That's not quite the opposite of the Greek meaning as Jeopardy claimed. In Greek, it meant the masses (one of its meanings in English too) with its antonym being hoi oligoi from which we get oligarchy.
>
> For further reference, the program on 9 September was a repeat of one
> from 11 February...the clue, in the category "Foreign Words and
> Phrases", read:
>
> This 2-word Greek phrase
> means the common people,
> but it has been
> improperly used to mean
> the upper crust of society
>
> None of the contestants was able to come up with the desired response....r
the upper crust of society."
Nor have I.
Don Phillipson
Sep 11, 2015, 9:03:33 AM9/11/15
to
"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:b9c5valnv77movgtf...@4ax.com...
>> For comparison, consider that bourgeois once meant a middle class between
>> the elite/ nobility and commoners but later meant upper class in
>> political usage
>> in socialist/ communist circles.
> Did communist theorists distinguish between middle and upper class, or
> did they lump them all into the one category, "bourgeois"?
Communist language (as documented by Jessica Mitford etc.)
distinguished 3 main classes: aristocracy, bourgeoisie and
proletariat. (Upper/lower/middle was a British literary convention,
later appropriated by sociologists and scientific marketers.)
Stalinist theorists later added 2 other classes, kulaks (rich
peasants) and intelligentsia (bourgeois siding with proletarians).
Stalinists hardly ever mentioned aristocrats, perhaps because
the interestingly post-revolutionary countries (France and
Russia) had eliminated such a large proportion of the
aristocratic class.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
news:b9c5valnv77movgtf...@4ax.com...
>> For comparison, consider that bourgeois once meant a middle class between
>> the elite/ nobility and commoners but later meant upper class in
>> political usage
>> in socialist/ communist circles.
> Did communist theorists distinguish between middle and upper class, or
> did they lump them all into the one category, "bourgeois"?
distinguished 3 main classes: aristocracy, bourgeoisie and
proletariat. (Upper/lower/middle was a British literary convention,
later appropriated by sociologists and scientific marketers.)
Stalinist theorists later added 2 other classes, kulaks (rich
peasants) and intelligentsia (bourgeois siding with proletarians).
Stalinists hardly ever mentioned aristocrats, perhaps because
the interestingly post-revolutionary countries (France and
Russia) had eliminated such a large proportion of the
aristocratic class.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Dingbat
Sep 11, 2015, 9:11:35 AM9/11/15
to
On Friday, September 11, 2015 at 8:31:35 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, September 11, 2015 at 1:31:33 AM UTC-4, RH Draney wrote:
> > On 9/10/2015 6:15 PM, Dingbat wrote:
>
> > > According to Jeopardy on 9 Sep, Hoi polloi in English has the opposite of its Greek meaning. Here's an excerpt from my exchange with a friend who watched that show; how off-base or on-target are my speculations?
>
> That's not in fact what the clue reported below says.
>
Like Norman Rockwell's Rumors, something was missed in the telling; either he didn't tell me the whole clue or he did and I misunderstood it.
> On Friday, September 11, 2015 at 1:31:33 AM UTC-4, RH Draney wrote:
> > On 9/10/2015 6:15 PM, Dingbat wrote:
>
> > > According to Jeopardy on 9 Sep, Hoi polloi in English has the opposite of its Greek meaning. Here's an excerpt from my exchange with a friend who watched that show; how off-base or on-target are my speculations?
>
> That's not in fact what the clue reported below says.
>
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Sep 11, 2015, 12:01:37 PM9/11/15
to
for decades.
bill van
Sep 11, 2015, 12:36:38 PM9/11/15
to
In article <msujev$4l6$1...@news.albasani.net>,
There used to be some fun sub-categories such as petite bourgeoisie and
lumpenproletariat that have fallen out of use to the extent that I
suspect most younger people have never heard of them.
--
bill
lumpenproletariat that have fallen out of use to the extent that I
suspect most younger people have never heard of them.
--
bill
Steve Hayes
Sep 11, 2015, 2:35:23 PM9/11/15
to
On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 11:49:12 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
><ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>For comparison, consider that bourgeois once meant a middle class between the elite/ nobility and commoners but later meant upper class in political usage in socialist/ communist circles.
>
>Did communist theorists distinguish between middle and upper class, or
>did they lump them all into the one category, "bourgeois"?
One of the great ideological splits among communists was whether you
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
><ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>For comparison, consider that bourgeois once meant a middle class between the elite/ nobility and commoners but later meant upper class in political usage in socialist/ communist circles.
>
>Did communist theorists distinguish between middle and upper class, or
>did they lump them all into the one category, "bourgeois"?
could have a socialist revolution against an aristocracy, as in
Russia, or whether you needed to have a bourgeois revolution first,
and then the communists would revold against the bourgeois. Some said
that the February Revolution was the bourgeois one, and the October
Revolution the socialist one. but others thought they were too close.
Dingbat
Sep 11, 2015, 3:10:16 PM9/11/15
to
Bertel Lund Hansen
Sep 11, 2015, 4:46:10 PM9/11/15
to
Peter Duncanson [BrE] skrev:
> Did communist theorists distinguish between middle and upper
> class, or did they lump them all into the one category,
> "bourgeois"?
They had only two categories: comrades and enemies.
--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark
> Did communist theorists distinguish between middle and upper
> class, or did they lump them all into the one category,
> "bourgeois"?
--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark
Jerry Friedman
Sep 11, 2015, 4:50:03 PM9/11/15
to
On Friday, September 11, 2015 at 10:36:38 AM UTC-6, bill van wrote:
> In article <msujev$4l6$1...@news.albasani.net>,
> "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>
> > "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
> > news:b9c5valnv77movgtf...@4ax.com...
> >
> > >> For comparison, consider that bourgeois once meant a middle class between
> > >> the elite/ nobility and commoners but later meant upper class in
> > >> political usage
> > >> in socialist/ communist circles.
> >
> > > Did communist theorists distinguish between middle and upper class, or
> > > did they lump them all into the one category, "bourgeois"?
> >
> > Communist language (as documented by Jessica Mitford etc.)
> > distinguished 3 main classes: aristocracy, bourgeoisie and
> > proletariat. (Upper/lower/middle was a British literary convention,
> > later appropriated by sociologists and scientific marketers.)
> > Stalinist theorists later added 2 other classes, kulaks (rich
> > peasants) and intelligentsia (bourgeois siding with proletarians).
For Marx, the intelligentsia were paid to side with the capitalists.
> In article <msujev$4l6$1...@news.albasani.net>,
> "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>
> > "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
> > news:b9c5valnv77movgtf...@4ax.com...
> >
> > >> For comparison, consider that bourgeois once meant a middle class between
> > >> the elite/ nobility and commoners but later meant upper class in
> > >> political usage
> > >> in socialist/ communist circles.
> >
> > > Did communist theorists distinguish between middle and upper class, or
> > > did they lump them all into the one category, "bourgeois"?
> >
> > Communist language (as documented by Jessica Mitford etc.)
> > distinguished 3 main classes: aristocracy, bourgeoisie and
> > proletariat. (Upper/lower/middle was a British literary convention,
> > later appropriated by sociologists and scientific marketers.)
> > Stalinist theorists later added 2 other classes, kulaks (rich
> > peasants) and intelligentsia (bourgeois siding with proletarians).
> > Stalinists hardly ever mentioned aristocrats, perhaps because
> > the interestingly post-revolutionary countries (France and
> > Russia) had eliminated such a large proportion of the
> > aristocratic class.
surprise to anybody), that in capitalism the aristocracy would lose
importance and the bourgeoisie as he defined it would be the sole ruling
class.
> There used to be some fun sub-categories such as petite bourgeoisie and
> lumpenproletariat
This paper discusses Marx's use of the word "class", though as it focuses
> There used to be some fun sub-categories such as petite bourgeoisie and
> lumpenproletariat
a lot on his inconsistencies, it may leave you more confused than when you
started.
https://www.nyu.edu/projects/ollman/docs/class.php
The lumpenproletariat is apparently not a subcategory of the proletariat,
despite the name. It's the paupers and criminals, who could be dangerous
to the proletariat because capitalists can hire them as strikebreakers and
counterrevolutionary troops.
> that have fallen out of use to the extent that I
> suspect most younger people have never heard of them.
Steven Brust, is a Trotskyite (don't worry, you can't tell from most
of his books) and talks about Communism a lot on his blog.
One of my students has a very small pin with a picture of Lenin that he
wears on his cap. I'm sure you're right that even most college students
are uninterested in Marxism and haven't heard such terms as
"lumpenproletariat", though.
--
Jerry Friedman
Whiskers
Sep 11, 2015, 5:12:58 PM9/11/15
to
On 2015-09-11, Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 05:12:44 +0200, Dingbat wrote:
>
>>For comparison, consider that bourgeois once meant a middle class
>>between the elite/ nobility and commoners but later meant upper class
>>in political usage in socialist/ communist circles.
>
> Never did mean upper class, least of all to communists.
Other than in the sense that once the aristocracy had been eliminated
> On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 05:12:44 +0200, Dingbat wrote:
>
>>For comparison, consider that bourgeois once meant a middle class
>>between the elite/ nobility and commoners but later meant upper class
>>in political usage in socialist/ communist circles.
>
> Never did mean upper class, least of all to communists.
there was no-one in society to out-rank the bourgeoisie. But that would
be to admit that the complete conversion of society to one of exactly
equal status for all had in fact failed and that The Revolution was thus
at best incomplete (which it has always been in those places where it
has been attempted).
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Whiskers
Sep 11, 2015, 6:04:31 PM9/11/15
to
On 2015-09-11, Horace LaBadie <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:
> In article <b722304b-379f-4377...@googlegroups.com>,
> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> According to Jeopardy on 9 Sep, Hoi polloi in English has the
>> opposite of its Greek meaning. Here's an excerpt from my exchange
>> with a friend who watched that show; how off-base or on-target are my
>> speculations?
>>
>> I gather that hoi polloi was little used in print for a time for
>> being a term used by elites to refer to those with money but not
>> manners or "wannabe elites"
>
> nouveau riche
>
>> who were still influential enough to make newspapers regret calling
>> them hoi polloi. That's not quite the opposite of the Greek meaning
>> as Jeopardy claimed. In Greek, it meant the masses (one of its
>> meanings in English too) with its antonym being hoi oligoi from which
>> we get oligarchy.
>
>
>> OTOH, there is this example (new to me) in your reference in
>> accordance with what Jeopardy claimed:
>> http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/183475.html <<some believe hoi
>> polloi to mean 'the upper classes'; for example, this from the
>> Chicago Daily Herald, October 1984: Brent Musburger, whose talks with
>> WGN are continuing, was among the hoi polloi in the rich seats.>>
>
> Or, without more context, that could mean that Musberger (a broadcast
> sports reporter) was out of place in the expensive boxes.
Or that some of the hoi polloi aren't poor.
> In article <b722304b-379f-4377...@googlegroups.com>,
> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> According to Jeopardy on 9 Sep, Hoi polloi in English has the
>> opposite of its Greek meaning. Here's an excerpt from my exchange
>> with a friend who watched that show; how off-base or on-target are my
>> speculations?
>>
>> I gather that hoi polloi was little used in print for a time for
>> being a term used by elites to refer to those with money but not
>> manners or "wannabe elites"
>
> nouveau riche
>
>> who were still influential enough to make newspapers regret calling
>> them hoi polloi. That's not quite the opposite of the Greek meaning
>> as Jeopardy claimed. In Greek, it meant the masses (one of its
>> meanings in English too) with its antonym being hoi oligoi from which
>> we get oligarchy.
>
>
>> OTOH, there is this example (new to me) in your reference in
>> accordance with what Jeopardy claimed:
>> http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/183475.html <<some believe hoi
>> polloi to mean 'the upper classes'; for example, this from the
>> Chicago Daily Herald, October 1984: Brent Musburger, whose talks with
>> WGN are continuing, was among the hoi polloi in the rich seats.>>
>
> Or, without more context, that could mean that Musberger (a broadcast
> sports reporter) was out of place in the expensive boxes.
>> To explain this usage, I'd hazard a guess that among some speakers,
>> hoi polloi lost its disparaging connotation of affluent commoners and
>> evolved into meaning just affluent (aka upper class).
>>
>> For comparison, consider that bourgeois once meant a middle class
>> between the elite/ nobility and commoners but later meant upper class
>> in political usage in socialist/ communist circles.
>
> The Oxford American Dictionary says simply that the application of hoi
> polloi to the wealthy is incorrect, and agrees that it probably came
> from a confusion with hoity-toity.
'hoity-toity' with class at all - it's an attitude not a status.
I'd want something more than just one ambiguous example of usage meaning
the opposite of the Greek; ideally at least three different authors in
different contexts and without ambiguity.
My concern is that a sports journalist might refer to all those who
aren't sports journalists as hoi polloi; or that those engaged in a
particular sport might use the term for all those not so engaged. Those
usages wouldn't seem to stretch, let alone oppose, the conventional
meaning and would be somewhat in line with the obsolete Oxbridge usage
to describe all those who'd obtained a 'pass' degree rather than the few
who'd managed one of the higher-grade passes.
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