Southern American accent?
matt271...@yahoo.co.uk
in the TV show "Damages" (which has just had a run on British TV). As
a BrE speaker I can tell that it's some kind of Southern American
accent, but not much more. To me it sounds kind of "extreme", perhaps
very rural, and I was going to ask if it could be identified more
exactly or pinned down to a more specific region. But I've read a few
comments suggesting that it's just a pretty poor imitation of a
generic southern accent. Any opinions? What does it sound like to
American ears?
tony cooper
wrote:
You may receive some replies to your question, but "Damages" aired on
"F/X" here. That's a channel that is only available to cable
subscribers and not all cable networks carry it. There aren't a lot
of well-known shows on F/X. I know I've never seen "Damages", and I'm
not sure if I've ever watched a F/X program.
Ivanek is Slovenian by birth, but an experienced actor with quite a
few credits. Whether or not he can do a Southern accent is unknown to
me. He studied at the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art, so he
could probably do a Brit accent.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Nasti J
> Ivanek is Slovenian by birth, but an experienced actor with quite a
> few credits. Whether or not he can do a Southern accent is unknown to
> me. He studied at the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art, so he
> could probably do a Brit accent.
he recently appeared in "John Adams" on HBO here in the US - he was
playing John Dickinson, an American lawyer and politician who grew up
in Maryland, but became a Philadephia lawyer, so I don't think yiou
could call the accent he assumed "Southern".
Hatunen
Maryland is considered a southern state.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
tony cooper
>On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 21:22:49 -0700 (PDT), Nasti J
><njgi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Apr 7, 8:52 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Ivanek is Slovenian by birth, but an experienced actor with quite a
>>> few credits. Whether or not he can do a Southern accent is unknown to
>>> me. He studied at the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art, so he
>>> could probably do a Brit accent.
>>
>>he recently appeared in "John Adams" on HBO here in the US - he was
>>playing John Dickinson, an American lawyer and politician who grew up
>>in Maryland, but became a Philadephia lawyer, so I don't think yiou
>>could call the accent he assumed "Southern".
>
>Maryland is considered a southern state.
That may be, but the question is about a Southern accent. Marylanders
are not known for having Southern accents. There's a distinct
Baltimore accent and phrasing style, but it ain't Southern as it's
spoken in the South.
Matthew Huntbach
I would take the phrase "Southern American accent" to mean an accent of
South America. If I wished to refer to an accent of the south of the USA,
I would say "accent of the American South" or something like that.
Matthew Huntbach
matt271...@yahoo.co.uk
If there's any confusion, I meant "accent of the American South".
Mike Lyle
> On Apr 8, 10:58�am, Matthew Huntbach <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
> > I would take the phrase "Southern American accent" to mean an accent of
> > South America. If I wished to refer to an accent of the south of the USA,
> > I would say "accent of the American South" or something like that.
>
> If there's any confusion, I meant "accent of the American South".
Come on, Matthew! It must be a very long time since "Southern America"
generally meant "South America", or since anybody asked
alt.usage.english a question about a Spanish or Portuguese accent
(those being the most conspicuous languages of that continent). I
think you're just being mischievous.
--
Mike.
Matthew Huntbach
> On Apr 8, 12:30???pm, matt271829-n...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On Apr 8, 10:58???am, Matthew Huntbach <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> I would take the phrase "Southern American accent" to mean an accent of
>>> South America. If I wished to refer to an accent of the south of the USA,
>>> I would say "accent of the American South" or something like that.
>> If there's any confusion, I meant "accent of the American South".
> Come on, Matthew! It must be a very long time since "Southern America"
> generally meant "South America", or since anybody asked
> alt.usage.english a question about a Spanish or Portuguese accent
> (those being the most conspicuous languages of that continent). I
> think you're just being mischievous.
No, I meant it seriously. I did wonder, when I saw the heading, whether this
was an article on the accents when speaking English of people from South
America i.e Brazil, Argentina, Peru etc.
I would expect the south of the USA to be referred to by "the American South"
or just "the South" in the context of a discussion where the participants
are from the USA. But "Southern American"? I think people from the USA
would just say "southern", and people from elsewhere might still find that
ambiguous at least.
Matthew Huntbach
Richard Fontana
> On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Mike Lyle wrote:
>> Come on, Matthew! It must be a very long time since "Southern America"
>> generally meant "South America", or since anybody asked
>> alt.usage.english a question about a Spanish or Portuguese accent
>> (those being the most conspicuous languages of that continent). I
>> think you're just being mischievous.
>
> No, I meant it seriously.
> I would expect the south of the USA to be referred to by "the American South"
> or just "the South" in the context of a discussion where the participants
> are from the USA. But "Southern American"? I think people from the USA
> would just say "southern", and people from elsewhere might still find that
> ambiguous at least.
I'll weakly defend the ex-Councillor (AHNI) here. I have myself used
"SthnUS" as the standard abbreviation in AUE Dialectal Equivalence
Notation[TM], the best-known example of which is:
license (= BrE "licence"; SthnUS "licen")
Given the established "AmE" usage, one might think that "SAmE" might be
called for, but something seemed wrong with it, possibly the possibility
of a South American connection.
--
Richard Fontana
LFS
Of course he is.
I wish someone would answer the OP's question, though: it's very rare in
aue for someone to ask exactly the question I was thinking about. (And
now I think I'll put my feet up and watch the final episode which I
recorded last night. It's the best US drama series I've seen for a long
time, and I'm not a Streep fan but she's been excellent.)
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Joshua Holmes
: Maryland is considered a southern state.
No it isn't. No one has a "southern" accent, and Maryland wasn't
part of the Confederacy.
--
Joshua Holmes - jdho...@stwing.org
Per aspera, luctor et emergo.
Richard Fontana
I know him mainly from his role as the district attorney (= ApproxBrE
"locally-elected counterpart to Director of Public Prosecutions"?) in
_Homicide: Life on the Street_, which took place in Bal'imore. He didn't
have a particularly noticeable accent there. Nor did he in his role as
the sleazy governor in _Oz_, or in any of the various TV appearances I've
seen him in. I haven't seen _Damages_.
--
Richard Fontana
Don Phillipson
news:7e4a979f-a8be-4a6a...@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> I'm curious about the accent of Zeljko Ivanek playing lawyer Ray Fiske
> in the TV show "Damages" (which has just had a run on British TV). As
> a BrE speaker I can tell that it's some kind of Southern American
> accent, but not much more. To me it sounds kind of "extreme", perhaps
Stan Freberg solved the problem 50 years ago when his
comedy acts were on network radio in the USA. Ethnic sidekicks
were always named Pancho or Pedro and identified (if necessary)
as Swiss: "That way we don't offend nobody."
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Glenn Knickerbocker
> I would take the phrase "Southern American accent" to mean an accent of
> South America.
You'd confuse a lot of people that way. Things from South America are
South American.
¬R
Charles Riggs
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 22:36:20 -0700, Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 21:22:49 -0700 (PDT), Nasti J
>><njgi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Apr 7, 8:52 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ivanek is Slovenian by birth, but an experienced actor with quite a
>>>> few credits. Whether or not he can do a Southern accent is unknown to
>>>> me. He studied at the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art, so he
>>>> could probably do a Brit accent.
>>>
>>>he recently appeared in "John Adams" on HBO here in the US - he was
>>>playing John Dickinson, an American lawyer and politician who grew up
>>>in Maryland, but became a Philadephia lawyer, so I don't think yiou
>>>could call the accent he assumed "Southern".
>>
>>Maryland is considered a southern state.
Not by most Marylanders it isn't, and I spent enough years in various
parts of the state to know. The state's inhabitants tend to come from
points North, not from the South. Go just a few miles north from
Virginia into Maryland and, quite suddenly, the mix of people is far
more varied. Northern Virginia and Southern Maryland, even though they
border, or have DC sandwiched between them, are like night and day.
>That may be, but the question is about a Southern accent. Marylanders
>are not known for having Southern accents.
There are dozens of accents spoken in the South. For three examples,
this Northern Virginia boy has a terrible time understanding the drawl
of a New Orleans fisherman, and although I have no trouble
understanding a South Carolinian, unless he is from the Outer Banks,
in which case he might as well be speaking Greek, the sluggishness of
their speech bores me to distraction when I am trying to extract
meaning from it. Still, I find the sound musical.
--
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 7 Apr 2008, matt271...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>> I'm curious about the accent of Zeljko Ivanek playing lawyer Ray Fiske
>> in the TV show "Damages" (which has just had a run on British TV). As
>> a BrE speaker I can tell that it's some kind of Southern American
>> accent, but not much more. To me it sounds kind of "extreme", perhaps
>> very rural, and I was going to ask if it could be identified more
>> exactly or pinned down to a more specific region. But I've read a few
>> comments suggesting that it's just a pretty poor imitation of a
>> generic southern accent. Any opinions? What does it sound like to
>> American ears?
>
>I would take the phrase "Southern American accent" to mean an accent of
>South America.
I would too.
> If I wished to refer to an accent of the south of the USA,
>I would say "accent of the American South" or something like that.
>
>Matthew Huntbach
Wouldn't one need to be more specific? Alabama accent, Virginia
accent, Tennessee accent and so forth?
--
Charles Riggs
Jeffrey Turner
> Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> : Maryland is considered a southern state.
>
> No it isn't. No one has a "southern" accent, and Maryland wasn't
> part of the Confederacy.
Maryland wasn't part of the Confederacy because Federal troops
prevented it from seceding. The first casualties of the war
were in Baltimore.
That said, when it comes to southern accents, you can include
Maryland out.
--Jeff
--
"The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without
formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to
deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree
odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government
whether Nazi or Communist."
- Winston Churchill, Nov. 21, 1943
Jeffrey Turner
Anyone have any familiarity with BelizeE?
Hatunen
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
That's Baltimore, not Maryland.
New Orleans has a distinct northern-sounding accent, but
non-cajun Louisiana has a southern accent.
tony cooper
wrote:
>>That may be, but the question is about a Southern accent. Marylanders
>>are not known for having Southern accents.
>
>There are dozens of accents spoken in the South. For three examples,
>this Northern Virginia boy has a terrible time understanding the drawl
>of a New Orleans fisherman, and although I have no trouble
>understanding a South Carolinian, unless he is from the Outer Banks,
>in which case he might as well be speaking Greek, the sluggishness of
>their speech bores me to distraction when I am trying to extract
>meaning from it. Still, I find the sound musical.
Who is this "Charles Riggs" person? The name rings a bell, but I
can't place it.
Good to see you back.
Glenn Knickerbocker
> No it isn't. No one has a "southern" accent, and Maryland wasn't
> part of the Confederacy.
Plenty of us consider all the slave states Southern, Confederate or not.
The Mason-Dixon Line was already a major cultural boundary for other
reasons before it was even drawn: independent vs. established churches,
German vs. English population.
ŹR
Mike Lyle
> Mike Lyle wrote:
> > On Apr 8, 12:30�pm, matt271829-n...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
> >>On Apr 8, 10:58�am, Matthew Huntbach <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > [...]
>
> >>>I would take the phrase "Southern American accent" to mean an accent of
> >>>South America. If I wished to refer to an accent of the south of the USA,
> >>>I would say "accent of the American South" or something like that.
>
> >>If there's any confusion, I meant "accent of the American South".
>
> > Come on, Matthew! It must be a very long time since "Southern America"
> > generally meant "South America", or since anybody asked
> > alt.usage.english a question about a Spanish or Portuguese accent
> > (those being the most conspicuous languages of that continent). I
> > think you're just being mischievous.
>
> Anyone have any familiarity with BelizeE?
Well, yes, it happens I've known one Belizean. He identified as West
Indian, and sounded it. I assume the country's speakers of languages
other than English don't sound West Indian, but perhaps they do--it
may be the kind of English they all use.
--
Mike.
Joshua Holmes
I grew up around Philadelphia, and I never heard anyone refer to
Maryland or Delaware as southern states. They both have areas of crappy
rural poverty, but it's not different from crappy PA rural poverty or
crappy upstate NY rural poverty that I can tell. Baltimore is more like
Philadelphia and New York (albeit crappier) than Richmond or Savannah or
Durham.
Hatunen
<jdho...@coruscant.stwing.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>: Maryland is considered a southern state.
>
> No it isn't. No one has a "southern" accent, and Maryland wasn't
>part of the Confederacy.
The Confedracy does not equal the "South", generally considered
to be the area soth of the Mason-Dixon line and the Ohio River.
Granted it gets a bit fuzzy in places like Kentucky, but the
other "definition", "former slave state", definitely includes
Maryland and Kentucky.
For a discussion of the question of the "southerness" of Maryland
by a Marylander see http://www.etymonline.com/cw/maryland.htm
Hatunen
The skit involved a character like the Cisco Kid and his sidekick
Pancho, and that was Pancho's response when asked if he was
Mexican; Pancho had a thick Mexican accent.
matt271...@yahoo.co.uk
Streep?
SPOILER SPACE
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If after watching the finale you can explain why Patty tried to kill
Ellen I'd be delighted to know. I think I've lost the plot ...
literally. I know they had their disagreements, but none so extreme as
to cause that sort of behaviour I wouldn't have thought. I don't get
it.
Hatunen
See Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_United_States
The "feeling" of things Southern has changed quite a bit since
the 1960s, particularly in major urban areas. But see if you can
find H L Mencken's article from the early 20th century called
"The Sahara of the Bozart" for a look at the odler South.
Ah. It's actually on line at
http://writing2.richmond.edu/jessid/eng423/restricted/mencken.pdf
tony cooper
>On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 01:44:14 -0400, tony cooper
><tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 22:36:20 -0700, Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 21:22:49 -0700 (PDT), Nasti J
>>><njgi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Apr 7, 8:52 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ivanek is Slovenian by birth, but an experienced actor with quite a
>>>>> few credits. Whether or not he can do a Southern accent is unknown to
>>>>> me. He studied at the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art, so he
>>>>> could probably do a Brit accent.
>>>>
>>>>he recently appeared in "John Adams" on HBO here in the US - he was
>>>>playing John Dickinson, an American lawyer and politician who grew up
>>>>in Maryland, but became a Philadephia lawyer, so I don't think yiou
>>>>could call the accent he assumed "Southern".
>>>
>>>Maryland is considered a southern state.
>>
>>That may be, but the question is about a Southern accent. Marylanders
>>are not known for having Southern accents. There's a distinct
>>Baltimore accent and phrasing style, but it ain't Southern as it's
>>spoken in the South.
>
>That's Baltimore, not Maryland.
>
You need to recognize that new sentences sometimes start new thought.
To make it easier:
Marylanders are not known for having Southern accents.<<end of thought
New thought>>>There is a distinct Baltimore accent.
Paul Wolff
stop worrying what a generic Guatemalan-to-Argentine accent sounds like.
On reflection it should have been 'a South American accent' if that had
been meant, and 'an American accent of the Southern kind' is a fair
construe.
Zzzz...
Have now read other comments, but wotthehell. Once written, let fly.
--
Paul
Cece
> I'm curious about the accent of Zeljko Ivanek playing lawyer Ray Fiske
> in the TV show "Damages" (which has just had a run on British TV). As
> a BrE speaker I can tell that it's some kind of Southern American
> accent, but not much more. To me it sounds kind of "extreme", perhaps
> very rural, and I was going to ask if it could be identified more
> exactly or pinned down to a more specific region. But I've read a few
> comments suggesting that it's just a pretty poor imitation of a
> generic southern accent. Any opinions? What does it sound like to
> American ears?
I haven't seen the show, or even heard of it. Or the actor, either.
However, Hollywood does not approve of real accents, limiting American
accents to three: standard, urban North, and Southern. Hollywood's
conception, anyway. Standard is southern California, very close to
actual standard American, which is pretty much 1950's Midwest. Urban
North is Manhattan; it's very strange to listen to a character from
Chicago sounding like the Lower East Side. Southern is Ozarks, the
lesser educated portion; a Georgia lady should never sound like
backwoods Arkansas. Actors can do better -- I've heard them -- but
they are not allowed to on film. Every now and then, a big name actor
or an actor in a minor part can sneak a bit of real accent into a
show; the most recent occurrence I recall was that one of the
supporting actors in Murder, She Wrote would insert a bit of Maine
into his speech -- more dialect than accent, I think.
Maria C.
> I would take the phrase "Southern American accent" to mean an accent
> of South America. If I wished to refer to an accent of the south of
> the USA, I would say "accent of the American South" or something like
> that.
"Southern American accent" wouldn't point to South America /or/ the
American South for me. In written form, "Southern (America) accent"
might be okay for U.S. southerners, but the parens are necessary.
Southern accent = from the American South. (And there are various
accents depending on the state or area.)
South American accent = from South America. (Do all S. American
countries speak the same language, let alone have the same accent? I
would doubt it.)
"Southern American accent" is a term without a country.
--
Maria C.
Maria C.
> New Orleans has a distinct northern-sounding accent,
I guess that depends on which New Orleans folks you're listening to --
and where they may have come from way-back-when. The ones I know (not
many, I'll admit) do not sound northern at all.
> but non-cajun Louisiana has a southern accent.
--
Maria C.
John Varela
(in article <2s8nv3t6n7r8oicps...@4ax.com>):
> That's Baltimore, not Maryland.
For a small sample of the Baltimore accent, listen to
http://www.thejoyboys.com/sound/d115t10a.mp3
The Joy Boys were drive-time radio personalities in the DC area years ago.
One of them was Willard Scott, of whom many Americans will have heard, and
the other was Ed Walker, who sings the excerpt above. (For those who are
interested, Ed hosts a program of old time radio shows every Sunday evening
from 7 to 11 Eastern time on public radio station WAMU, which is streamed on
the Internet.)
I used to know a Baltimorean who would exclaim "ohhh" just like Ed does in
the song.
> New Orleans has a distinct northern-sounding accent, but non-cajun Louisiana
> has a southern accent.
Damned tootin'. I believe I've told this story here before, but it doesn't
hurt to do it again. When I was a freshman at MIT, newly arrived from New
Orleans, another freshman expressed surprise when he learned my home town.
He was from Attleboro or some such place, and thought from my accent that I
must have been from somewhere in the Boston area.
There is more than one New Orleans accent. I had what's called an "uptown"
accent. Listen carefully to Louis Armstrong for traces of another version of
the New Orleans accent.
Cajuns have a unique accent all their own.
--
John Varela
Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email.
John Varela
(in article <47FBA4EA...@bestweb.net>):
> Joshua Holmes wrote:
>> No it isn't. No one has a "southern" accent, and Maryland wasn't
>> part of the Confederacy.
>
> Plenty of us consider all the slave states Southern, Confederate or not.
Then you must consider Massachusetts and New York to be Southern states.
Granted, they abolished slavery early, but let's not forget how those
Massachusetts fortunes arose.
> The Mason-Dixon Line was already a major cultural boundary for other
> reasons before it was even drawn: independent vs. established churches,
Where was there an established church in 1861?
> German vs. English population.
There were plenty of Germans in the South during the Civil War, including
three of my great-grandparents.
John Varela
(in article <3l5nv3hv9ujbrfogs...@4ax.com>):
That goes double for a South American accent: Venezuelan, Brazilian,
Argentine, Guyanan, etc.
Sam
<jdhol...@coruscant.stwing.upenn.edu> wrote:
> Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> : Maryland is considered a southern state.
>
> No it isn't. No one has a "southern" accent, and Maryland wasn't
> part of the Confederacy.
>
The Mason-Dixon line (source of "Dixie") is the line between
Pennsylvania and Maryland. At the time it was surveyed it was
considered the dividing line between the American North and South.
I agree that by the time of the Recent Unpleasantness Maryland was not
really a southern state and never seriously considered seceding.
V/R
Sam Melton
Oleg Lego
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:58:57 +0100, Matthew Huntbach posted:
>
>
>On Mon, 7 Apr 2008, matt271...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>> I'm curious about the accent of Zeljko Ivanek playing lawyer Ray Fiske
>> in the TV show "Damages" (which has just had a run on British TV). As
>> a BrE speaker I can tell that it's some kind of Southern American
>> accent, but not much more. To me it sounds kind of "extreme", perhaps
>> very rural, and I was going to ask if it could be identified more
>> exactly or pinned down to a more specific region. But I've read a few
>> comments suggesting that it's just a pretty poor imitation of a
>> generic southern accent. Any opinions? What does it sound like to
>> American ears?
>
>I would take the phrase "Southern American accent" to mean an accent of
>South America. If I wished to refer to an accent of the south of the USA,
>I would say "accent of the American South" or something like that.
In NAmE:
Southern American = pertaining to the southern part of the USA.
South American = pertaining to the South American continent, where
that continent will not mean what you will probably pretend it means.
Hatunen
<non...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Hatunen wrote:
>
>> New Orleans has a distinct northern-sounding accent,
>
>I guess that depends on which New Orleans folks you're listening to --
>and where they may have come from way-back-when. The ones I know (not
>many, I'll admit) do not sound northern at all.
Well, I have heard famous New Orleans clarinetist speak on the
TV, and I had a schoolmate from New Orleans; both sounded more
Brooklyn than Southern.
Glenn Knickerbocker
>On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 13:01:30 -0400, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote
>Then you must consider Massachusetts and New York to be Southern states.
Or I must think readers here astute enough to understand that the
meaningful distinction is in the status of slavery during the period when
it was a point of significant conflict between states, from 1812 through
the Civil War.
>> The Mason-Dixon Line was already a major cultural boundary for other
>> reasons before it was even drawn: independent vs. established churches,
>Where was there an established church in 1861?
Where was the Mason-Dixon Line not yet drawn in 1861?
ŹR - we don't have branes made of clockworks, chocolate maidens
http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/arkville.html --the Ur-beatle
Glenn Knickerbocker
>The defining line was the Mason-Dixon line. The only states that was a slave-
>state that are often not included as a Southern State are Missouri and Delaware.
>I have no idea why this is, but it is.
The Mason-Dixon Line also divides Maryland from Delaware, and much of
Missouri lies in latitudes north of the Line. Personally, after
traveling through both, I think of both as Southern.
ŹR "When I'm elected supreme dictator of the world, you'll be one
of the first up against the wall, Knickerbocker." VOTE MARC GOODMAN
Hatunen
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>In message <alpine.LFD.1.10.0...@toil.dcs.qmul.ac.uk>
> Matthew <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>> I would take the phrase "Southern American accent" to mean an accent of
>> South America.
>
>No, that would be a South American accent. A Southern American accent is
>clearly one of the American South. not South America.
It would have been less arguable had it been "southern American"
rather than "Southern American".
Hatunen
>On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 13:01:30 -0400, Glenn Knickerbocker wrote
>(in article <47FBA4EA...@bestweb.net>):
>
>> Joshua Holmes wrote:
>>> No it isn't. No one has a "southern" accent, and Maryland wasn't
>>> part of the Confederacy.
>>
>> Plenty of us consider all the slave states Southern, Confederate or not.
>
>Then you must consider Massachusetts and New York to be Southern states.
>Granted, they abolished slavery early, but let's not forget how those
>Massachusetts fortunes arose.
The fact that New Englanders were in the slave trade doesn't make
them Southerners anymore than their engagement in the whaling
trade made them ocean dwellers.
Although slavery was once legal in New York and Mass, neither had
economies heavily dependent on slavery, nor have either normally
been considered slave states. The early abolition of slavery
there is the cue here.
Hatunen
wrote:
>On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 19:39:38 -0400, "Maria C."
><non...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>Hatunen wrote:
>>
>>> New Orleans has a distinct northern-sounding accent,
>>
>>I guess that depends on which New Orleans folks you're listening to --
>>and where they may have come from way-back-when. The ones I know (not
>>many, I'll admit) do not sound northern at all.
Well duh. needs fixing...
>Well, I have heard famous New Orleans clarinetist *Pete Fountain* speak on the
Matthew Huntbach
> In message <alpine.LFD.1.10.0...@toil.dcs.qmul.ac.uk>
> Matthew <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>> I would take the phrase "Southern American accent" to mean an accent of
>> South America.
> No, that would be a South American accent. A Southern American accent is
> clearly one of the American South. not South America.
I don't think it is clear, it is confusing. I've just done a Google
search on UK pages, and it does seem that "Southern American" is
generally used to refer to the south of the USA, whereas "Southern
America" is generally used to refer to the continent south of Panama.
Some seem to be suggesting I was just making this point to annoy
people from the USA, but I really wasn't - I was genuinely uncertain
as to what the usage was intended to mean.
I note that you yourself have used the term "American South" to refer
to the south of the USA, and it is following this that I would use
the form "of the American South" to mean what you say is clearly
meant (but until yesterday I dodn't know) by "Southern American".
Matthew Huntbach
Matthew Huntbach
> On Apr 8, 5:11 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
>> Anyone have any familiarity with BelizeE?
> Well, yes, it happens I've known one Belizean. He identified as West
> Indian, and sounded it. I assume the country's speakers of languages
> other than English don't sound West Indian, but perhaps they do--it
> may be the kind of English they all use.
The same applies to Guyana, culturally West Indian. Indeed, Guyanans
are regarded as "smallies", which means a West Indian not
from Jamaica (most of whom would, indeed, come from smaller islands
than Jamaica).
"West Indian" means the British-colonised parts of the Caribbean,
so does not include e.g. Cuba. Actually, I think it can include the
French-colonised parts as well, I've seen them referred to as "French
West Indies".
Matthew Huntbach
Matthew Huntbach
> On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:58:57 +0100, Matthew Huntbach
> <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Apr 2008, matt271...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> I'm curious about the accent of Zeljko Ivanek playing lawyer Ray Fiske
>>> in the TV show "Damages" (which has just had a run on British TV). As
>>> a BrE speaker I can tell that it's some kind of Southern American
>>> accent, but not much more. To me it sounds kind of "extreme", perhaps
>>> very rural, and I was going to ask if it could be identified more
>>> exactly or pinned down to a more specific region. But I've read a few
>>> comments suggesting that it's just a pretty poor imitation of a
>>> generic southern accent. Any opinions? What does it sound like to
>>> American ears?
>> I would take the phrase "Southern American accent" to mean an accent of
>> South America.
> I would too.
I hope from this that those who suggested I wrote the above insincerely
will have the grace to apologise.
>> If I wished to refer to an accent of the south of the USA,
>> I would say "accent of the American South" or something like that.
> Wouldn't one need to be more specific? Alabama accent, Virginia
> accent, Tennessee accent and so forth?
No, it's similar to the way one can refer to "a British accent",
and whereas we Brits would say "Heh, you can't do that, there's loads
of different British accents", someone unfamiliar with the variety
may just detect a sort of generic Britishness. They may have an idea
of an accent which most typifies the American South, just as
Received Pronuncication perhaps most typifies British English, or
they may just be thinking of features which are more commonly found
in the accents of the American South than in the accemts of other
parts of the USA.
Matthew Huntbach
tony cooper
<m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Lewis wrote:
>> In message <alpine.LFD.1.10.0...@toil.dcs.qmul.ac.uk>
>> Matthew <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>> I would take the phrase "Southern American accent" to mean an accent of
>>> South America.
>
>> No, that would be a South American accent. A Southern American accent is
>> clearly one of the American South. not South America.
>
>I don't think it is clear, it is confusing. I've just done a Google
>search on UK pages, and it does seem that "Southern American" is
>generally used to refer to the south of the USA, whereas "Southern
>America" is generally used to refer to the continent south of Panama.
>Some seem to be suggesting I was just making this point to annoy
>people from the USA, but I really wasn't - I was genuinely uncertain
>as to what the usage was intended to mean.
I might buy the man on the Clapham omnibus being confused, but you've
been a regular in aue for quite some time. The usage of "American"
has been discussed up, down, and sidewise in this group. Also the use
of "Southern" and "southern" in reference to Americans.
Google searches find instances of usage by people who have not had the
illuminating experience of being exposed to endless discussions on
certain topics. You might Google up an American's comment that there
is one British accent, but it will not have been made by a person that
regularly reads aue. You might Google up a Brit's comment that
Americans directly elect their President, but it will not have been
made by a person who regularly reads aue.
>I note that you yourself have used the term "American South" to refer
>to the south of the USA,
But it doesn't mean that. I live in the south of the USA, but I don't
live in the American South. You should know that by now.
>and it is following this that I would use
>the form "of the American South" to mean what you say is clearly
>meant (but until yesterday I dodn't know) by "Southern American".
The original mention of "Southern American" was made by a British
Clapham omnibus rider and not by an American or by a Brit who is a
regular participant in this group.
Matthew Huntbach
> On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 09:31:17 +0100, Matthew Huntbach
> <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <alpine.LFD.1.10.0...@toil.dcs.qmul.ac.uk>
>>> Matthew <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>> I would take the phrase "Southern American accent" to mean an accent of
>>>> South America.
>>> No, that would be a South American accent. A Southern American accent is
>>> clearly one of the American South. not South America.
>> I don't think it is clear, it is confusing. I've just done a Google
>> search on UK pages, and it does seem that "Southern American" is
>> generally used to refer to the south of the USA, whereas "Southern
>> America" is generally used to refer to the continent south of Panama.
>> Some seem to be suggesting I was just making this point to annoy
>> people from the USA, but I really wasn't - I was genuinely uncertain
>> as to what the usage was intended to mean.
> I might buy the man on the Clapham omnibus being confused, but you've
> been a regular in aue for quite some time. The usage of "American"
> has been discussed up, down, and sidewise in this group. Also the use
> of "Southern" and "southern" in reference to Americans.
It was the conjunction of "Southern" and "American" which confused me.
Of course I realise that "Southern" on its own refers to the south
of the USA except in contexts where we are clearly talking about
some other country, and "American" on its own refers to the USA.
> Google searches find instances of usage by people who have not had the
> illuminating experience of being exposed to endless discussions on
> certain topics. You might Google up an American's comment that there
> is one British accent, but it will not have been made by a person that
> regularly reads aue. You might Google up a Brit's comment that
> Americans directly elect their President, but it will not have been
> made by a person who regularly reads aue.
I am not poking fun at an American who believes there is only one
British accent. Rather I am suggesting that it's inevitable for all of
us that we can see fine distinctions in things that are familiar to
us, but only broad distinction in things less familiar. So it's
entirely understandable that a Brit hears a whole range of different
accents in Britain, while an American who has no familiairty with these
accents is much less able to distinguish between them and much more
likely to see them as a variation on a common theme.
>> I note that you yourself have used the term "American South" to refer
>> to the south of the USA,
> But it doesn't mean that. I live in the south of the USA, but I don't
> live in the American South. You should know that by now.
Yes, yes, I appreciate it is more complex than that, but I am hardly
going to write a long essay on the precise cultural meaning of "South"
in a USA context while just pointing out that I was genuinely confused
by the phrase "Southern American".
>> and it is following this that I would use
>> the form "of the American South" to mean what you say is clearly
>> meant (but until yesterday I dodn't know) by "Southern American".
> The original mention of "Southern American" was made by a British
> Clapham omnibus rider and not by an American or by a Brit who is a
> regular participant in this group.
Thus, perhaps the confusion - I think an American would be more likely
to say just "Southern".
Matthew Huntbach
Joshua Holmes
: In message <ftg230$4fe0$2...@netnews.upenn.edu>
: Joshua <jdho...@coruscant.stwing.upenn.edu> wrote::
: Yes it is. All the former slave-states are Southern states. West Virginia,
: Maryland, and Kentucky are all Southern States.
:
: The defining line was the Mason-Dixon line.
Yes, it *was*, but it is not the defining line any longer. The
Mason-Dixon line is a historical curiosity, not a contemporary cultural
divide. Whatever Maryland was in the 1850s is irrelevant to what it is
today. Today, it is not a southern state, and hasn't been one in at least
3 decades.
--
Joshua Holmes - jdho...@stwing.org
Per aspera, luctor et emergo.
Matthew Huntbach
> On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, tony cooper wrote:
>> Google searches find instances of usage by people who have not had the
>> illuminating experience of being exposed to endless discussions on
>> certain topics. You might Google up an American's comment that there
>> is one British accent, but it will not have been made by a person that
>> regularly reads aue. You might Google up a Brit's comment that
>> Americans directly elect their President, but it will not have been
>> made by a person who regularly reads aue.
> I am not poking fun at an American who believes there is only one
> British accent. Rather I am suggesting that it's inevitable for all of
> us that we can see fine distinctions in things that are familiar to
> us, but only broad distinction in things less familiar. So it's
> entirely understandable that a Brit hears a whole range of different
> accents in Britain, while an American who has no familiairty with these
> accents is much less able to distinguish between them and much more
> likely to see them as a variation on a common theme.
I am reminded by this of the primary school teacher who moved from
London to Cumbria. Trying out one of her lessons, which always worked
well in London, she shows the class a picture of a sheep. "What is
this?" she says. The class looks puzzled. The teacher is puzzled.
In London at least some of the little kids know what a sheep is, why
not here in rural England? So she says "Anyone?". Finally, a hand
goes up. "Yes, Tommy?". "Er, miss, we're not sure, but we think it's
a black-faced Swaledale".
Matthew Huntbach
R H Draney
>
>On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:26:57 -0500, Lewis wrote:
>>The defining line was the Mason-Dixon line. The only states that was a slave-
>>state that are often not included as a Southern State are Missouri and Delaware.
>>I have no idea why this is, but it is.
>
>The Mason-Dixon Line also divides Maryland from Delaware, and much of
>Missouri lies in latitudes north of the Line. Personally, after
>traveling through both, I think of both as Southern.
There are probably parts of Ohio, Illinois and Iowa that you'd find Southern as
well....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
Hatunen
<m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Mike Lyle wrote:
>> On Apr 8, 5:11 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
>
>>> Anyone have any familiarity with BelizeE?
>
>> Well, yes, it happens I've known one Belizean. He identified as West
>> Indian, and sounded it. I assume the country's speakers of languages
>> other than English don't sound West Indian, but perhaps they do--it
>> may be the kind of English they all use.
>
>The same applies to Guyana, culturally West Indian. Indeed, Guyanans
>are regarded as "smallies", which means a West Indian not
>from Jamaica (most of whom would, indeed, come from smaller islands
>than Jamaica).
>
>"West Indian" means the British-colonised parts of the Caribbean,
>so does not include e.g. Cuba.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_West_Indies where it
lists Cuba (and Puerto Rico) as part of the Spanish West Indies.
>Actually, I think it can include the
>French-colonised parts as well, I've seen them referred to as "French
>West Indies".
They're all generically the West Indies.
Hatunen
If one is going to use the term "southern states" as a
distinction from "northern states", one must define a boundary
somewhere, and I see no reason not to use the traditional
Mason-Dixon/Ohio River line as the boundary, despite Marylanders'
apparent desire to avoid any historic connection with those awful
Confederate states. Hell, even Gerogia is no longer a "southern
state" as connotated in olden times.
James Silverton
??>> Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
??>> : In message <ftg230$4fe0$2...@netnews.upenn.edu>
??>> : Joshua <jdho...@coruscant.stwing.upenn.edu> wrote:
??>> :> Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
??>> :
??>> :>: Maryland is considered a southern state.
??>> :
??>> :> No it isn't.
??>> :
??>> : Yes it is. All the former slave-states are Southern
??>> states. West Virginia, : Maryland, and Kentucky are all
??>> Southern States. : : The defining line was the Mason-Dixon
??>> line.
??>>
??>> Yes, it *was*, but it is not the defining line any
??>> longer. The Mason-Dixon line is a historical curiosity,
??>> not a contemporary cultural divide. Whatever Maryland was
??>> in the 1850s is irrelevant to what it is today. Today, it
??>> is not a southern state, and hasn't been one in at least 3
??>> decades.
H> If one is going to use the term "southern states" as a
H> distinction from "northern states", one must define a
H> boundary somewhere, and I see no reason not to use the
H> traditional Mason-Dixon/Ohio River line as the boundary,
H> despite Marylanders' apparent desire to avoid any historic
H> connection with those awful Confederate states. Hell, even
H> Gerogia is no longer a "southern state" as connotated in
H> olden times.
Maryland might have joined the confederacy if they had been
allowed to. Things have changed but the Maryland State Song
still says
Dear Mother! burst the tyrant's chain,
Maryland!
Virginia should not call in vain,
Maryland!
and
The despot's heel is on thy shore,
Maryland!
The "tyrant' and "despot" was Abraham Lincoln. There isn't too
much "whoppin' slaves and sellin' cotton" anymore!
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Paul Wolff
>In message <m7Nc3NLs...@fpwolff.demon.co.uk> Paul
><boun...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>> I can stop worrying what a generic Guatemalan-to-Argentine accent
>>sounds like.
>
>Guatemala is not in, or anywhere near, South America. There are several
>countries in between it and Panama, which is the buffer zone.
>
That is not a matter for dispute. But the relevant subject is not the
assignment of countries to continental landmasses, but the distribution
of accents in southern America, or the southern Americas, depending on
how the phrase was interpreted by the recipient of it.
Here is a map of the area I first thought of when reading of a Southern
American accent, though not the islands:
http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/namerica/latinout.htm
I then mentally subtracted Mexico as not being Southern enough.
--
Paul
tony cooper
You have both South America and Central America on your map. Why,
then, is it not automatically the "southern Americas" if you choose to
think of the them as akin to Southern American?
Mike Lyle
[...]
> Here is a map of the area I first thought of when reading of a Southern
> American accent, though not the islands:
>
> http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/namerica/latinout.htm
>
> I then mentally subtracted Mexico as not being Southern enough.
Glad you said that about the islands: for a ghastly moment I feared
the Windies might be about to get Malvinased.
And, of course, if Mexico isn't in North America, somebody's been
tinkering with the English language again.
--
Mike.
Paul Wolff
and Central America on my map because they, combined, make up the
geographical image that flashed across my mind when reading of "some
kind of Southern American accent". The islands were not part of that
image.
I guess my mind (which works quite well with pattern recognition and
cross-association) initially recognised "Southern American" as an exact
parallel to "South American", but in fuzzy form. That is, it triggered
receptors for "American" in the bi-continental sense, and it then looked
more closely at "Southern" and deduced that it must mean "South, but not
quite so emphatically". It did not trigger "American" in the USA sense,
but if it had [done, for RF], then "Southern" would have fallen into its
proper cotton-picking place.
Tony asks "why, then," and I can't see the "then" part of it. That is,
I can't see why it should follow from my having both Central and South
America on my map that "it is ... automatically the southern Americas"
if I should take those two regions as akin to Southern American. In
fact, I can't make out what "it" it is. Maybe it -- "it" -- isn't
significant. In that passage I was merely offering "the southern
Americas" as an alternative to "southern America" in a throwaway manner,
regardless of capitalisation, for expressing the same area. I'm now
bored myself by this long-winded digression, so for anyone still paying
attention, congratulations. To Tony: if I haven't answered your
question, it's because I didn't understand it.
--
Paul
Default User
> On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:26:57 -0500, Lewis wrote:
> > The defining line was the Mason-Dixon line. The only states that
> > was a slave- state that are often not included as a Southern State
> > are Missouri and Delaware. I have no idea why this is, but it is.
>
> The Mason-Dixon Line also divides Maryland from Delaware, and much of
> Missouri lies in latitudes north of the Line. Personally, after
> traveling through both, I think of both as Southern.
There are parts of Missouri that could be called Southern, but not the
major metropolitan areas of St. Louis (although at one time you
probably could called it Southern) or Kansas City. On the whole, I'd
call the state Midwestern rather than Southern.
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
tony cooper
<boun...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
Seems like a dead-easy question to me. If a map shows South America
and Central America, it is then a map of "Americas". The "s" cleverly
used to indicate that there two involved.
This goes straight to the choice of "...in southern America, or the
southern Americas...". "It" is "the choice" in that sentence; a
rather ordinarily constructed sentence, I thought.
John Varela
(in article <4ekov3984bavur5oj...@4ax.com>):
> Although slavery was once legal in New York and Mass, neither had economies
> heavily dependent on slavery,
Which is why they abolished slavery early. They didn't need it.
--
John Varela
Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email.
Hatunen
<mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Central America is also in North America.
John Varela
(in article <ftio7...@drn.newsguy.com>):
> Glenn Knickerbocker filted:
>>
>> On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:26:57 -0500, Lewis wrote:
>>> The defining line was the Mason-Dixon line. The only states that was a
>>> slave-
>>> state that are often not included as a Southern State are Missouri and
>>> Delaware.
>>> I have no idea why this is, but it is.
>>
>> The Mason-Dixon Line also divides Maryland from Delaware, and much of
>> Missouri lies in latitudes north of the Line. Personally, after
>> traveling through both, I think of both as Southern.
>
> There are probably parts of Ohio, Illinois and Iowa that you'd find Southern
> as well....r
My wife spent her childhood in an Illinois town on the Ohio River and in a
Missouri town on the Mississippi (her father worked "on the river" for the
Corps of Engineers). She is in some ways more Southern than I am.
John Varela
(in article <vphov3l13og2ci6t9...@4ax.com>):
>>> The Mason-Dixon Line was already a major cultural boundary for other
>>> reasons before it was even drawn: independent vs. established churches,
>> Where was there an established church in 1861?
>
> Where was the Mason-Dixon Line not yet drawn in 1861?
I'll bite: Siberia?
John Varela
(in article
<e0d7a7ff-a12a-4c48...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>):
> Well... The Mason-Dixon line (source of "Dixie") is the line between
> Pennsylvania and Maryland.
That's one theory. There are others.
Mike Lyle
> On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:40:12 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lyle
>
[...]
>
> >And, of course, if Mexico isn't in North America, somebody's been
> >tinkering with the English language again.
>
> Central America is also in North America.
As is Middle America. Actually, I once saw that on an inflatable
globe.
--
Mike.
John Varela
(in article <obiov3p7dbf3gmc0v...@4ax.com>):
> In NAmE:
>
> Southern American = pertaining to the southern part of the USA.
I don't think I've ever seen or heard "Southern American" except in this
thread. It's just "Southern" or "Southerner" with "American" understood and
unstated. Reference to the other continent of The Americas is always "South
America" or "South American", never "Southern".
Robert Lieblich
Apparently there is such a term, usually defined as comprising Mexico,
Central American, and the Caribbean islands (and sometimes also
Venezuela and Colombia). Wikipedia has a good simple explanation
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_America_(Americas)>, and there
are many other cites that use or discuss the term.
--
Bob Lieblich, AmEclectic
Midwesterner (of a sort)
Paul Wolff
much]
Are there two? My view is that the Americas are all places that could
be called Americas, and that it's impossible to say how many Americas
there are, because they are amorphous and dependent upon whims of
labelling. Show me a map of land from Mexico to Tierra del Fuego, and I
can't count the Americas there. Where's Mesoamerica, for a start?
>
>This goes straight to the choice of "...in southern America, or the
>southern Americas...". "It" is "the choice" in that sentence; a
>rather ordinarily constructed sentence, I thought.
>
I see. "It" stands for that which I choose in the following conditional
clause. Fine, I just didn't spot that. Stupido, eh?
So I can answer, and the answer is signalled above. It isn't
automatically the southern Americas rather than [S/s]outhern America,
because I don't enumerate Americas. From where I stand on the sunrise
side of the pond, when geography edges ahead of politics it is America
as continent that has primacy of meaning, and when talking accent
distribution it seemed that geography was called for. If we were
talking politics, then America as country might well have taken first
meaning, and Southern American would still be waiting for the Robert E
Lee.
--
Paul
Oleg Lego
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 15:50:42 +0100, Matthew Huntbach posted:
Very good!
Mike Lyle
> On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 15:50:42 +0100, Matthew Huntbach posted:
>
> >I am reminded by this of the primary school teacher who moved from
> >London to Cumbria. Trying out one of her lessons, which always worked
> >well in London, she shows the class a picture of a sheep. "What is
> >this?" she says. The class looks puzzled. The teacher is puzzled.
> >In London at least some of the little kids know what a sheep is, why
> >not here in rural England? So she says "Anyone?". Finally, a hand
> >goes up. "Yes, Tommy?". "Er, miss, we're not sure, but we think it's
> >a black-faced Swaledale".
>
> Very good!
They've only got one word for snow, though.
--
Mike.
Hatunen
That's a bit confusing to USAns. "Middle America" is also a term
for the great middle demographic of the population or the
American midwest:
Middle America
Function:
noun
Date:
1841
1: the region of the western hemisphere including Mexico, Central
America, often the West Indies, and sometimes Colombia and
Venezuela 2: the midwestern section of the United States 3:the
middle-class segment of the United States population; especially
the traditional or conservative element of the middle class
-from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/middle%20america
Hatunen
<OLDl...@verizon.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 00:04:53 -0400, Sam wrote
>(in article
><e0d7a7ff-a12a-4c48...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>):
>
>> Well... The Mason-Dixon line (source of "Dixie") is the line between
>> Pennsylvania and Maryland.
>
>That's one theory. There are others.
Which is a theory" That the Mason-Dixon Line is the line between
PA and MD, or that it's the source of the word "Dixie" (the
latter has never been settled, the former is certainly true).
I'm surprised to see that the M-D Line is also the border of
Delaware putting Delaware outside the "South".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mason-Dixon_line
R H Draney
>
>If one is going to use the term "southern states" as a
>distinction from "northern states", one must define a boundary
>somewhere, and I see no reason not to use the traditional
>Mason-Dixon/Ohio River line as the boundary, despite Marylanders'
>apparent desire to avoid any historic connection with those awful
>Confederate states. Hell, even Gerogia is no longer a "southern
>state" as connotated in olden times.
We've done Joel Garreau here before, and his book "The Nine Nations of North
America", have we not?...
Here's a diagram of the continent as he saw it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:9nations.png
The region identified as "Dixie" is the one we're talking about...it's hard to
tell how much of Delaware or Maryland it encompasses....r
Hatunen
wrote:
Doesn't look to me if MD or DE are included. I have the book but
I don't feel like dragging it out at the moment. In any case,
Garreau is dealing with the socioeconomic and political realities
of about 1980 (he calls what we now call "The Rustbelt" the
"Foundry").
On the other hand, I don't really see any changes to the
boundaries of the Nine Nations, although I tend to disagree with
including northern Arizona in MexAmerica.
tony cooper
<boun...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
Bloody hell! It's your map.
My view is that the Americas are all places that could
>be called Americas, and that it's impossible to say how many Americas
>there are, because they are amorphous and dependent upon whims of
>labelling. Show me a map of land from Mexico to Tierra del Fuego, and I
>can't count the Americas there. Where's Mesoamerica, for a start?
>
You linked to a map with two of the Americas: South and Central.
>>This goes straight to the choice of "...in southern America, or the
>>southern Americas...". "It" is "the choice" in that sentence; a
>>rather ordinarily constructed sentence, I thought.
>>
>I see. "It" stands for that which I choose in the following conditional
>clause. Fine, I just didn't spot that. Stupido, eh?
>So I can answer, and the answer is signalled above. It isn't
>automatically the southern Americas rather than [S/s]outhern America,
>because I don't enumerate Americas. From where I stand on the sunrise
>side of the pond, when geography edges ahead of politics it is America
>as continent that has primacy of meaning, and when talking accent
>distribution it seemed that geography was called for. If we were
>talking politics, then America as country might well have taken first
>meaning, and Southern American would still be waiting for the Robert E
>Lee.
It's a bit unsettling to read a post that appears to be written by
Mike Lyle in his usual manner, but is written in all earnestness by
someone else.
tony cooper
wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 00:46:31 -0400, Oleg Lego wrote
You won't unless another passenger on the Clapham omnibus drops in.
Glenn Knickerbocker
>I don't think I've ever seen or heard "Southern American" except in this
>thread.
And I don't think it was even intended as a phrase in the subject of this
thread. I'm pretty sure Matt was meant an American accent that was
Southern, not an accent that would be called Southern American.
¬R \\\ http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/bsinl.html /// T E A M W O R K
Together Everyone Achieves More Worthless Objectives, Reducing Knowledge
matt271...@yahoo.co.uk
> On Wed, 09 Apr 2008 21:45:56 GMT, John Varela wrote:
> >I don't think I've ever seen or heard "Southern American" except in this
> >thread.
>
> And I don't think it was even intended as a phrase in the subject of this
> thread. I'm pretty sure Matt was meant an American accent that was
> Southern, not an accent that would be called Southern American.
Quite. We all know what an "American accent" is. We also all know that
a "Southern accent" is an accent from the south of a country. Putting
the two together did not seem much of a leap at the time!
There are about 60 Google book hits for "Southern American accent",
some with capital "S" and some without. At least one that I happened
to notice is referring to a Portuguese accent from South America, but
I'm guessing, without having checked them all, that the majority are
using it as I did. I notice also that Wikipedia has an article titled
"Southern American English".
R H Draney
That's one more than we have here in Phoenix....r
Chuck Riggs
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 17:09:48 +0100, Charles Riggs <chriggs@éircom.net>
>wrote:
>
>>>That may be, but the question is about a Southern accent. Marylanders
>>>are not known for having Southern accents.
>>
>>There are dozens of accents spoken in the South. For three examples,
>>this Northern Virginia boy has a terrible time understanding the drawl
>>of a New Orleans fisherman, and although I have no trouble
>>understanding a South Carolinian, unless he is from the Outer Banks,
>>in which case he might as well be speaking Greek, the sluggishness of
>>their speech bores me to distraction when I am trying to extract
>>meaning from it. Still, I find the sound musical.
>
>Who is this "Charles Riggs" person? The name rings a bell, but I
>can't place it.
>
>Good to see you back.
Would this be a sense of "good" that does not appear in a decent
English dictionary?
--
Chuck Riggs
Chuck Riggs
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:57:12 -0700, Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 01:44:14 -0400, tony cooper
>><tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 22:36:20 -0700, Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 21:22:49 -0700 (PDT), Nasti J
>>>><njgi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Apr 7, 8:52 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ivanek is Slovenian by birth, but an experienced actor with quite a
>>>>>> few credits. Whether or not he can do a Southern accent is unknown to
>>>>>> me. He studied at the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art, so he
>>>>>> could probably do a Brit accent.
>>>>>
>>>>>he recently appeared in "John Adams" on HBO here in the US - he was
>>>>>playing John Dickinson, an American lawyer and politician who grew up
>>>>>in Maryland, but became a Philadephia lawyer, so I don't think yiou
>>>>>could call the accent he assumed "Southern".
>>>>
>>>>Maryland is considered a southern state.
>>>
>>>That may be, but the question is about a Southern accent. Marylanders
>>>are not known for having Southern accents. There's a distinct
>>>Baltimore accent and phrasing style, but it ain't Southern as it's
>>>spoken in the South.
>>
>>That's Baltimore, not Maryland.
>>
>You need to recognize that new sentences sometimes start new thought.
>To make it easier:
>
>Marylanders are not known for having Southern accents.<<end of thought
>
>New thought>>>There is a distinct Baltimore accent.
Indeed there is. In fact, I submit that every major American city,
and a number of small ones, exhibits a distinct accent, even during
this era of communications. For those cities I know well, I can
sometimes pin a man away from home down after he has spoken a few
sentences. Or I could back when I lived in the States, years ago.
Memories fade.
My point is that this is not a unique talent by any means.
--
Chuck Riggs
Chuck Riggs
<m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Charles Riggs wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:58:57 +0100, Matthew Huntbach
>> <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 7 Apr 2008, matt271...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>>>> I'm curious about the accent of Zeljko Ivanek playing lawyer Ray Fiske
>>>> in the TV show "Damages" (which has just had a run on British TV). As
>>>> a BrE speaker I can tell that it's some kind of Southern American
>>>> accent, but not much more. To me it sounds kind of "extreme", perhaps
>>>> very rural, and I was going to ask if it could be identified more
>>>> exactly or pinned down to a more specific region. But I've read a few
>>>> comments suggesting that it's just a pretty poor imitation of a
>>>> generic southern accent. Any opinions? What does it sound like to
>>>> American ears?
>
>>> I would take the phrase "Southern American accent" to mean an accent of
>>> South America.
>
>> I would too.
>
>I hope from this that those who suggested I wrote the above insincerely
>will have the grace to apologise.
>
>>> If I wished to refer to an accent of the south of the USA,
>>> I would say "accent of the American South" or something like that.
>
>> Wouldn't one need to be more specific? Alabama accent, Virginia
>> accent, Tennessee accent and so forth?
>
>No, it's similar to the way one can refer to "a British accent",
>and whereas we Brits would say "Heh, you can't do that, there's loads
>of different British accents", someone unfamiliar with the variety
>may just detect a sort of generic Britishness. They may have an idea
>of an accent which most typifies the American South, just as
>Received Pronuncication perhaps most typifies British English, or
>they may just be thinking of features which are more commonly found
>in the accents of the American South than in the accemts of other
>parts of the USA.
>
>Matthew Huntbach
After years of living in Ireland, my observation is that most natives
are unable to discern one American accent from another. It boggles my
mind, but to them an American accent is an American accent is an
American accent. Except, behind my back, they may be calling it a Yank
accent.
--
Chuck Riggs
Chuck Riggs
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 09:31:17 +0100, Matthew Huntbach
><m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>>I note that you yourself have used the term "American South" to refer
>>to the south of the USA,
>
>But it doesn't mean that. I live in the south of the USA, but I don't
>live in the American South. You should know that by now.
I agree that a Floridian doesn't "live in the American South", but
few people in America use the odd expression "I live in the south of
the USA", either. In fact, I have *never* heard it or seen it until
just now.
If not referring to one's state, which is by far the most likely, a
Southerner says "I live in the South".
>>and it is following this that I would use
>>the form "of the American South" to mean what you say is clearly
>>meant (but until yesterday I dodn't know) by "Southern American".
>
>The original mention of "Southern American" was made by a British
>Clapham omnibus rider and not by an American or by a Brit who is a
>regular participant in this group.
--
Chuck Riggs
Hatunen
wrote:
>Mike Lyle filted:
Here in Tucson we call it "that white stuff in the back yard"
every few years when there actually is any.
Hatunen
<chriggs@éircom.net> wrote:
> [...] In fact, I submit that every major American city,
>and a number of small ones, exhibits a distinct accent, even during
>this era of communications. For those cities I know well, I can
>sometimes pin a man away from home down after he has spoken a few
>sentences. Or I could back when I lived in the States, years ago.
>Memories fade.
The city of New York has quite a few accents.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> Mike Lyle wrote:
>
>> On Apr 8, 12:30�pm, matt271829-n...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>
>>> On Apr 8, 10:58�am, Matthew Huntbach <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>> I would take the phrase "Southern American accent" to mean an accent of
>>>> South America. If I wished to refer to an accent of the south of the USA,
>>>> I would say "accent of the American South" or something like that.
>>>
>>> If there's any confusion, I meant "accent of the American South".
>>
>>
>> Come on, Matthew! It must be a very long time since "Southern America"
>> generally meant "South America", or since anybody asked
>> alt.usage.english a question about a Spanish or Portuguese accent
>> (those being the most conspicuous languages of that continent). I
>> think you're just being mischievous.
>
> Anyone have any familiarity with BelizeE?
No, but there are various other parts of Central America where the
ordinary language is English, such as towns like Bluefields on the
coast of Nicaragua. About 20 years ago I met someone in Colombia who
was introduced to me as Argentinian, and I was surprised to find (a)
that she spoke excellent English, and (b) that she spoke it with what
was to my ears a Jamaican accent. Where would an Argentinian pick up a
Jamaican accent, I wondered. It turned out that her husband was
Colombian, but came from the part of Colombia where the everyday
language of most people is English. You may be surprised (as I was) to
learn that such a part of Colombia exists, but it does and consists of
two small islands called San Andrés and Providencia (though my
Argentinian informant called them St Andrew and Providence), which are
such a long way north of what we think of as Colombia that unless you
notice "(Col.)" in very small letters next to their names in the atlas
you are likely to think they belong to Nicaragua or some other country.
Anyway, the fact that this lady spoke with a Jamaican accent suggests
to me that I wouldn't be surprised if the English of Belize is similar
to that of Jamaica.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On Apr 8, 5:11 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
>> Mike Lyle wrote:
>>> On Apr 8, 12:30�pm, matt271829-n...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>
>>>> On Apr 8, 10:58�am, Matthew Huntbach <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote
> :
>>
>>> [...]
>>
>>>>> I would take the phrase "Southern American accent" to mean an accent of
>
>>>>> South America. If I wished to refer to an accent of the south of the US
> A,
>>>>> I would say "accent of the American South" or something like that.
>>
>>>> If there's any confusion, I meant "accent of the American South".
>>
>>> Come on, Matthew! It must be a very long time since "Southern America"
>>> generally meant "South America", or since anybody asked
>>> alt.usage.english a question about a Spanish or Portuguese accent
>>> (those being the most conspicuous languages of that continent). I
>>> think you're just being mischievous.
>>
>> Anyone have any familiarity with BelizeE?
> [...]
>
> Well, yes, it happens I've known one Belizean. He identified as West
> Indian, and sounded it. I assume the country's speakers of languages
> other than English don't sound West Indian, but perhaps they do--it
> may be the kind of English they all use.
Ha. I should have read your answer before sending my own. Anyway,
you've confirmed my guess.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On Apr 9, 7:10 pm, Paul Wolff <bounc...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
> [...]
>> Here is a map of the area I first thought of when reading of a Southern
>> American accent, though not the islands:
>>
>> http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/namerica/latinout.htm
>>
>> I then mentally subtracted Mexico as not being Southern enough.
>
> Glad you said that about the islands: for a ghastly moment I feared
> the Windies might be about to get Malvinased.
>
> And, of course, if Mexico isn't in North America, somebody's been
> tinkering with the English language again.
Not the English language, I know, but the Mexicans themselves use the
term "Norteamericanos" to refer to people from somewhere different from
where they live.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> [ ... ]
>
> That's a bit confusing to USAns. "Middle America" is also a term
> for the great middle demographic of the population or the
> American midwest:
All would have been a lot less confusing if George Washington and his
buddies had managed to think of a name for their new country.
--
athel
Adam Funk
>>> New Orleans has a distinct northern-sounding accent,
>>
>>I guess that depends on which New Orleans folks you're listening to --
>>and where they may have come from way-back-when. The ones I know (not
>>many, I'll admit) do not sound northern at all.
>
> Well, I have heard famous New Orleans clarinetist speak on the
> TV, and I had a schoolmate from New Orleans; both sounded more
> Brooklyn than Southern.
There's a quotation at the beginning of _A Confederacy of Dunces_ to
the effect that a certain New Orleans accent is similar to that of
Hoboken and some other places in that area. (I'd quote it, but I
don't have the book to hand right now.)
--
Do you know what they do to book thieves up at Santa Rita?
http://www.shigabooks.com/indeces/bookhunter.html
Joshua Holmes
: Well, I have heard famous New Orleans clarinetist speak on the
: TV, and I had a schoolmate from New Orleans; both sounded more
: Brooklyn than Southern.
It's called "Yat".
--
Joshua Holmes - jdho...@stwing.org
Per aspera, luctor et emergo.
tony cooper
wrote:
>On Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:45:25 -0400, tony cooper
><tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 09:31:17 +0100, Matthew Huntbach
>><m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>>I note that you yourself have used the term "American South" to refer
>>>to the south of the USA,
>>
>>But it doesn't mean that. I live in the south of the USA, but I don't
>>live in the American South. You should know that by now.
>
> I agree that a Floridian doesn't "live in the American South", but
>few people in America use the odd expression "I live in the south of
>the USA", either. In fact, I have *never* heard it or seen it until
>just now.
> If not referring to one's state, which is by far the most likely, a
>Southerner says "I live in the South".
I have a habit of trying to respond to Matthew's type of comment in a
way that parallels the question or comment in order not to introduce
some new phrasing that might change the meaning. In this case,
Matthew used "the south of the USA" so I used the same phrase.
If Matthew had not used that particular phrase, I would have written
"I live in the southern part of the USA". No capital "S".
>>>and it is following this that I would use
>>>the form "of the American South" to mean what you say is clearly
>>>meant (but until yesterday I dodn't know) by "Southern American".
>>
>>The original mention of "Southern American" was made by a British
>>Clapham omnibus rider and not by an American or by a Brit who is a
>>regular participant in this group.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mike Lyle
> On Wed, 09 Apr 2008 17:56:57 -0400, Robert Lieblich
>
>
>
>
>
> >MikeLylewrote:
>
> >> On Apr 9, 10:29�pm, Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> > On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:40:12 -0700 (PDT),MikeLyle
>
> >> > <mike_lyle...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> [...]
>
> >> > >And, of course, if Mexico isn't in North America, somebody's been
> >> > >tinkering with the English language again.
>
> >> > Central America is also in North America.
>
> >> As is Middle America. Actually, I once saw that on an inflatable
> >> globe.
>
> >Apparently there is such a term, usually defined as comprising Mexico,
> >Central American, and the Caribbean islands (and sometimes also
> >Venezuela and Colombia). Wikipedia has a good simple explanation
> ><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_America_(Americas)>, and there
> >are many other cites that use or discuss the term.
>
> That's a bit confusing to USAns. "Middle America" is also a term
> for the great middle demographic of the population or the
> American midwest:
That /is/ rather why I thought it was worth mentioning that I'd seen
it on a globe. (And, indeed, why Bob's revelation was rather, uh,
deflating.) Am I going to have to start using smileys or something at
my time of life? I reflect that the late A.J.P.Taylor, in the intro to
the second edition of one of his books, floated* the idea that he
might put the word "goak" in brackets after certain remarks.
*this is a metaphor. I don't really think ideas are buoyant in any
fluid.
--
Mike.
Mike Lyle
[...]
>
> You won't unless another passenger on the Clapham omnibus drops in.
Personally, I'm waiting for somebody to reveal that your phrase is
potentially confusing, because "the man on the Clapham omnibus" is
often used figuratively to mean "the man in the street", quite
irrespective of any bus. Somebody else will, presumably, then announce
that it's funny he should have used that expression, since it quite
often doesn't really mean any particular male individual seen in a
street, but is used metaphorically to mean "a typical ordinary
person". The kraken, in the shape of James Follett, may, if we're
lucky, then wake and post the single word "Golly". Somebody could, at
that point, make it clear that there is nothing whatever racist about
the word "Golly", even with a capital letter. Marmalade recipes will
be exchanged. A certain poster will complain that marmalade is ill-
named, and that does his head in, because it should be made out of
quinces. I will announce that the author of /Orlando the Marmalade
Cat/ was the HMI who checked up on my sister's education while she was
being educated out of school in Devon. Marius will ask if those books
are worth reading. Somebody with a Gmail address and a false name will
ask which this marmalite stuff were. A certain poster will complain
that the word "toast" really upsets him. Thereupon, the planet may
well go "beeoooossskkklp" into a black hole, and never be heard from
again.
--
Mike.