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“lesser-known” vs. “less-known”
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Yurui Liu
Jun 3, 2019, 3:35:04 AM6/3/19
to
Hi,
What difference, if any, is there between "lesser-known" and "less-known"?
I'd appreciate your help.
What difference, if any, is there between "lesser-known" and "less-known"?
I'd appreciate your help.
Mark Brader
Jun 3, 2019, 3:50:46 AM6/3/19
to
Yurui Liu:
I suppose some people may use it. I don't see any substantial
difference from "lesser-known".
--
Mark Brader "One might as well complain about the Sun
Toronto rising in the daytime instead of at night,
m...@vex.net when we need it more." -- John Lawler
> What difference, if any, is there between "lesser-known" and "less-known"?
To me, "less-known" comes across as an error for "less well-known".
I suppose some people may use it. I don't see any substantial
difference from "lesser-known".
--
Mark Brader "One might as well complain about the Sun
Toronto rising in the daytime instead of at night,
m...@vex.net when we need it more." -- John Lawler
occam
Jun 3, 2019, 3:55:52 AM6/3/19
to
On 03/06/2019 09:35, Yurui Liu wrote:
> Hi,
>
> What difference, if any, is there between "lesser-known" and "less-known"?
>
"Less-known" has two fewer letters than "lesser known", and it is less
> Hi,
>
> What difference, if any, is there between "lesser-known" and "less-known"?
>
used - according to n-gram (see link).
http://tiny.cc/qsmp7y
Tony Cooper
Jun 3, 2019, 10:30:46 AM6/3/19
to
"There are five candidates for the office including Smith, but he is
the lesser-known".
"There are five candidates for the office including Smith, but he is
less-known."
The first implies that all five are not known widely. The second does
not make that implication for the other four.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
Jun 3, 2019, 1:43:12 PM6/3/19
to
bebe...@aol.com
Jun 3, 2019, 3:13:50 PM6/3/19
to
imply an actual comparison - it can be understood to mean "relatively little
known", whereas "less known" clearly establishes a comparison between two
elements.
Yurui Liu
Jun 3, 2019, 7:15:18 PM6/3/19
to
Tony Cooper於 2019年6月3日星期一 UTC+8下午10時30分46秒寫道：
How about "There are two candidates for the post. Bill is known to many
people in this field. On the other hand, Sam is the lesser known"?
Does this example present a contradiction?
people in this field. On the other hand, Sam is the lesser known"?
Does this example present a contradiction?
Tony Cooper
Jun 3, 2019, 8:06:41 PM6/3/19
to
On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 16:15:15 -0700 (PDT), Yurui Liu
<liuyur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Tony Cooper? 2019?6?3???? UTC+8??10?30?46????
In that example I would use "...the less known", so it is not a
contradiction.
I wouldn't say that "the lesser known" is *incorrect* there, but it
wouldn't be my choice.
<liuyur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Tony Cooper? 2019?6?3???? UTC+8??10?30?46????
contradiction.
I wouldn't say that "the lesser known" is *incorrect* there, but it
wouldn't be my choice.
CDB
Jun 4, 2019, 10:10:29 AM6/4/19
to
because it is only used attributively. "He is the lesser-known
candidate", but not "That candidate is lesser-known (or 'lesser
known')". The fact is that "lesser" is an adjective, not an adverb.
You can see "less known" without the hyphen, used predicatively: "That
candidate is less known". I would write "less well-known" in that
context, but the other is often used.
CDB
Jun 4, 2019, 10:10:48 AM6/4/19
to
On 6/3/2019 7:15 PM, Yurui Liu wrote:
> Tony Cooper：
an unexpressed noun" "... Sam is the lesser-known [candidate]". Note
insertion of hyphen to mark attributive use.
So, no contradiction for me.
> Tony Cooper：
>> Yurui Liu <liuyur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What difference, if any, is there between "lesser-known" and "less-known"?
>>> I'd appreciate your help.
>> I think the context would determine which is chosen.
>> "There are five candidates for the office including Smith, but he is
>> the lesser-known".
>> "There are five candidates for the office including Smith, but he is
>> less-known."
>> The first implies that all five are not known widely. The second does
>> not make that implication for the other four.
> How about "There are two candidates for the post. Bill is known to many
> people in this field. On the other hand, Sam is the lesser known"?
> Does this example present a contradiction?
The addition of "the" makes it clear that "lesser known" is completed by
>>> What difference, if any, is there between "lesser-known" and "less-known"?
>>> I'd appreciate your help.
>> I think the context would determine which is chosen.
>> "There are five candidates for the office including Smith, but he is
>> the lesser-known".
>> "There are five candidates for the office including Smith, but he is
>> less-known."
>> The first implies that all five are not known widely. The second does
>> not make that implication for the other four.
> How about "There are two candidates for the post. Bill is known to many
> people in this field. On the other hand, Sam is the lesser known"?
> Does this example present a contradiction?
an unexpressed noun" "... Sam is the lesser-known [candidate]". Note
insertion of hyphen to mark attributive use.
So, no contradiction for me.
bebe...@aol.com
Jun 4, 2019, 11:17:20 AM6/4/19
to
Le mardi 4 juin 2019 16:10:29 UTC+2, CDB a écrit :
> On 6/3/2019 3:13 PM, bebe...@aol.com wrote:
> > Yurui Liu a écrit :
> >> Hi,
>
> >> What difference, if any, is there between "lesser-known" and
> >> "less-known"?
>
> >> I'd appreciate your help.
>
> > "Lesser-known" can be a "null comparative" in that it doesn't
> > necessarily imply an actual comparison - it can be understood to mean
> > "relatively little known", whereas "less known" clearly establishes a
> > comparison between two elements.
>
> One difference is that "lesser-known" is really only found hyphenated,
> because it is only used attributively.
Yet Google returns 9340 hits for e.g. "is lesser known than".
> On 6/3/2019 3:13 PM, bebe...@aol.com wrote:
> > Yurui Liu a écrit :
> >> Hi,
>
> >> What difference, if any, is there between "lesser-known" and
> >> "less-known"?
>
> >> I'd appreciate your help.
>
> > "Lesser-known" can be a "null comparative" in that it doesn't
> > necessarily imply an actual comparison - it can be understood to mean
> > "relatively little known", whereas "less known" clearly establishes a
> > comparison between two elements.
>
> One difference is that "lesser-known" is really only found hyphenated,
> because it is only used attributively.
> "He is the lesser-known candidate",
candidate" would just mean that he's a little-known candidate (my initial
point).
> but not "That candidate is lesser-known (or 'lesser
> known')". The fact is that "lesser" is an adjective, not an adverb.
the example given in M-W for the adverbial use of "lesser":
---
lesser adverb
Definition of lesser (Entry 2 of 2)
: LESS
lesser-known
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lesser
---
CDB
Jun 5, 2019, 7:26:24 AM6/5/19
to
On 6/4/2019 11:17 AM, bebe...@aol.com wrote:
> CDB a écrit :
The AHD there says "used before a participle" and gives "lesser-known
writer" as its only example.
The online (American-usage) OED does not list it as an adverb, nor does
Wiktionary.
The 1838 Webster calls it an adjective and adds "[This word is a
corruption; but too well established to be discarded]", I suppose
because it is a double comparative.
the 1913 edition of same has quit whining but defines
the adverbial use only as "less".
All citations can be found at
https://www.onelook.com/?w=lesser&ls=a&loc=home_ac_lesser .
I conclude from all this mess that the the adverbial use of "lesser" is
so constrained and doubtful that it is best avoided. It seems to have
begun as an ignorant mistake, then grudgingly hallowed by repetition.
I avoid it, substituting "less" or "less well" as the occasion demands.
> CDB a écrit :
>>>> What difference, if any, is there between "lesser-known" and
>>>> "less-known"?
>>>> I'd appreciate your help.
>>> "Lesser-known" can be a "null comparative" in that it doesn't
>>> necessarily imply an actual comparison - it can be understood to
>>> mean "relatively little known", whereas "less known" clearly
>>> establishes a comparison between two elements.
>> One difference is that "lesser-known" is really only found
>> hyphenated, because it is only used attributively.
> Yet Google returns 9340 hits for e.g. "is lesser known than".
>> "He is the lesser-known candidate",
> That would imply "of two candidates", whereas "He is a lesser-known
> candidate" would just mean that he's a little-known candidate (my
> initial point).
>> but not "That candidate is lesser-known (or 'lesser known')". The
>> fact is that "lesser" is an adjective, not an adverb.
> In e.g. "a lesser evil", but not in this case - "lesser-known" is
> precisely the example given in M-W for the adverbial use of
> "lesser":
> --- lesser adverb Definition of lesser (Entry 2 of 2) : LESS
> lesser-known
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lesser ---
The version of M-W at OneLook goes on to define the word to mean "less".
>>>> "less-known"?
>>>> I'd appreciate your help.
>>> "Lesser-known" can be a "null comparative" in that it doesn't
>>> necessarily imply an actual comparison - it can be understood to
>>> mean "relatively little known", whereas "less known" clearly
>>> establishes a comparison between two elements.
>> One difference is that "lesser-known" is really only found
>> hyphenated, because it is only used attributively.
> Yet Google returns 9340 hits for e.g. "is lesser known than".
>> "He is the lesser-known candidate",
> That would imply "of two candidates", whereas "He is a lesser-known
> candidate" would just mean that he's a little-known candidate (my
> initial point).
>> but not "That candidate is lesser-known (or 'lesser known')". The
>> fact is that "lesser" is an adjective, not an adverb.
> In e.g. "a lesser evil", but not in this case - "lesser-known" is
> precisely the example given in M-W for the adverbial use of
> "lesser":
> --- lesser adverb Definition of lesser (Entry 2 of 2) : LESS
> lesser-known
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lesser ---
The AHD there says "used before a participle" and gives "lesser-known
writer" as its only example.
The online (American-usage) OED does not list it as an adverb, nor does
Wiktionary.
The 1838 Webster calls it an adjective and adds "[This word is a
corruption; but too well established to be discarded]", I suppose
because it is a double comparative.
the 1913 edition of same has quit whining but defines
the adverbial use only as "less".
All citations can be found at
https://www.onelook.com/?w=lesser&ls=a&loc=home_ac_lesser .
I conclude from all this mess that the the adverbial use of "lesser" is
so constrained and doubtful that it is best avoided. It seems to have
begun as an ignorant mistake, then grudgingly hallowed by repetition.
I avoid it, substituting "less" or "less well" as the occasion demands.
Peter T. Daniels
Jun 5, 2019, 9:49:23 AM6/5/19
to
On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:26:24 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
[lesser]
> the 1913 edition of same has quit whining but defines
> the adverbial use only as "less".
Hardly "same"; G. and C. Merriam purchased the use of Webster's name
from his estate, so that "Merriam-Webster" is the only legitimate
"Webster's Dictionary" these days, but they may not have been zealous
in protecting their trademark (as Coke and Xerox are), so these days
anyone can put "Webster" in their title. (That would probably have
infuriated Noah, as he devoted many years to getting copyright protection
for authors before it was put into the Constitution through his efforts.)
But between the late 1840s and the International of 1913 were many
generations of unabridged dictionaries with generations of lexicographers,
so whether much of what Webster himself wrote remains is quite doubtful.
(In particular, he paid no attention to the Comparative Philology that was
beginning to be born by 1828, so his etymologies are useless -- he had a
giant rotating table with various foreign dictionaries and would simply
look for similarities.)
[lesser]
> The 1838 Webster calls it an adjective and adds "[This word is a
> corruption; but too well established to be discarded]", I suppose
> because it is a double comparative.
1828
> corruption; but too well established to be discarded]", I suppose
> because it is a double comparative.
> the 1913 edition of same has quit whining but defines
> the adverbial use only as "less".
from his estate, so that "Merriam-Webster" is the only legitimate
"Webster's Dictionary" these days, but they may not have been zealous
in protecting their trademark (as Coke and Xerox are), so these days
anyone can put "Webster" in their title. (That would probably have
infuriated Noah, as he devoted many years to getting copyright protection
for authors before it was put into the Constitution through his efforts.)
But between the late 1840s and the International of 1913 were many
generations of unabridged dictionaries with generations of lexicographers,
so whether much of what Webster himself wrote remains is quite doubtful.
(In particular, he paid no attention to the Comparative Philology that was
beginning to be born by 1828, so his etymologies are useless -- he had a
giant rotating table with various foreign dictionaries and would simply
look for similarities.)
bebe...@aol.com
Jun 5, 2019, 9:57:43 AM6/5/19
to
also the comparative of "little" ("littler" or "lesser" according to M-W),
i.e. a "regular" (not double) comparative - so that its use as an adverb
is no more jarring than e.g. that of "real" for "really".
CDB
Jun 5, 2019, 11:00:18 AM6/5/19
to
"Lesser" is not freely used in the meaning you propose. "There is
little respect between them, and less (not 'lesser') kindness. "Little
loved and less (not 'lesser') respected."
The difficulties that attend its use are among the reasons I gave for my
choices. You are free choose otherwise.
The use of "real" for "really" is informal or dialectal; some would call
it sub-standard. IMHO, something similar is true for many uses of "lesser".
CDB
Jun 5, 2019, 11:00:48 AM6/5/19
to
On 6/5/2019 9:49 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> CDB wrote:
> [lesser]
>> The 1838 Webster calls it an adjective and adds "[This word is a
>> corruption; but too well established to be discarded]", I suppose
>> because it is a double comparative.
> 1828
Typo.
> CDB wrote:
> [lesser]
>> The 1838 Webster calls it an adjective and adds "[This word is a
>> corruption; but too well established to be discarded]", I suppose
>> because it is a double comparative.
> 1828
>> the 1913 edition of same has quit whining but defines the adverbial
>> use only as "less".
> Hardly "same"; G. and C. Merriam purchased the use of Webster's name
> from his estate, so that "Merriam-Webster" is the only legitimate
> "Webster's Dictionary" these days, but they may not have been
> zealous in protecting their trademark (as Coke and Xerox are), so
> these days anyone can put "Webster" in their title. (That would
> probably have infuriated Noah, as he devoted many years to getting
> copyright protection for authors before it was put into the
> Constitution through his efforts.)
> But between the late 1840s and the International of 1913 were many
> generations of unabridged dictionaries with generations of
> lexicographers, so whether much of what Webster himself wrote remains
> is quite doubtful.
> (In particular, he paid no attention to the Comparative Philology
> that was beginning to be born by 1828, so his etymologies are useless
> -- he had a giant rotating table with various foreign dictionaries
> and would simply look for similarities.)
bunch of them back at him
Yurui Liu
Jun 6, 2019, 12:02:49 AM6/6/19
to
CDB於 2019年6月5日星期三 UTC+8下午11時00分18秒寫道：
What do you think is wrong with "lesser-respected"?
Tony Cooper
Jun 6, 2019, 12:13:30 AM6/6/19
to
On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 21:02:46 -0700 (PDT), Yurui Liu
<liuyur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>CDB? 2019?6?5???? UTC+8??11?00?18????
"Less known" is a statement. "Lesser known" is a comparison.
<liuyur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>CDB? 2019?6?5???? UTC+8??11?00?18????
CDB
Jun 6, 2019, 9:36:22 AM6/6/19
to
On 6/6/2019 12:02 AM, Yurui Liu wrote:
> CDB：
For one thing, it's a predicative use, and I don't think adverbial
"lesser" can be used except attributively. Most of all, though, it
offends my feel for the language. As I've said, I think the adverbial
use of "lesser" is to be avoided; even the uses some people judge
acceptable are severely restricted, almost to the point where I would
call them fixed phrases. Would anyone say "a lesser-beautiful woman" or
"lesser-famous writers"?
It is possible to speculate that the phrase "lesser-known X", its chief
use in my experience (and "lesser-respected, which you asked about
above, expresses a similar idea), comes from a misinterpretation of
"lesser known X" meaning "less important among known Xs", in which
"lesser" and "known" are both adjectives modifying "X". "He is one of
the lesser known composers of the Eighteenth Century" is still awkward,
but makes sense to me, at least.
That is speculation, as I said; and all my whining will not prevent
unchecked use from making the phrase legitimate in the end -- unless it
falls out of use, as phrases often do.
>> The difficulties that attend its use are among the reasons I gave
>> for my choices. You are free choose otherwise.
>> The use of "real" for "really" is informal or dialectal; some would
>> call it sub-standard. IMHO, something similar is true for many
>> uses of "lesser".
>>>> I avoid it, substituting "less" or "less well" as the occasion
>>>> demands.
>>>>>> You can see "less known" without the hyphen, used
>>>>>> predicatively: "That candidate is less known". I would
>>>>>> write "less well-known" in that context, but the other is
>>>>>> often used.
--
I thought about trimming, but it all seemed to be relevant, to some degree.
> CDB：
"lesser" can be used except attributively. Most of all, though, it
offends my feel for the language. As I've said, I think the adverbial
use of "lesser" is to be avoided; even the uses some people judge
acceptable are severely restricted, almost to the point where I would
call them fixed phrases. Would anyone say "a lesser-beautiful woman" or
"lesser-famous writers"?
It is possible to speculate that the phrase "lesser-known X", its chief
use in my experience (and "lesser-respected, which you asked about
above, expresses a similar idea), comes from a misinterpretation of
"lesser known X" meaning "less important among known Xs", in which
"lesser" and "known" are both adjectives modifying "X". "He is one of
the lesser known composers of the Eighteenth Century" is still awkward,
but makes sense to me, at least.
That is speculation, as I said; and all my whining will not prevent
unchecked use from making the phrase legitimate in the end -- unless it
falls out of use, as phrases often do.
>> The difficulties that attend its use are among the reasons I gave
>> for my choices. You are free choose otherwise.
>> The use of "real" for "really" is informal or dialectal; some would
>> call it sub-standard. IMHO, something similar is true for many
>> uses of "lesser".
>>>> I avoid it, substituting "less" or "less well" as the occasion
>>>> demands.
>>>>>> You can see "less known" without the hyphen, used
>>>>>> predicatively: "That candidate is less known". I would
>>>>>> write "less well-known" in that context, but the other is
>>>>>> often used.
I thought about trimming, but it all seemed to be relevant, to some degree.
bill van
Jun 6, 2019, 2:07:21 PM6/6/19
to
On 2019-06-06 13:36:17 +0000, CDB said:
> On 6/6/2019 12:02 AM, Yurui Liu wrote:
>> What do you think is wrong with "lesser-respected"?
>
> For one thing, it's a predicative use, and I don't think adverbial
> "lesser" can be used except attributively. Most of all, though, it
> offends my feel for the language. As I've said, I think the adverbial
> use of "lesser" is to be avoided; even the uses some people judge
> acceptable are severely restricted, almost to the point where I would
> call them fixed phrases. Would anyone say "a lesser-beautiful woman" or
> "lesser-famous writers"?
I know what you mean about fixed phrases. I used to get some mileage
> On 6/6/2019 12:02 AM, Yurui Liu wrote:
>> What do you think is wrong with "lesser-respected"?
>
> For one thing, it's a predicative use, and I don't think adverbial
> "lesser" can be used except attributively. Most of all, though, it
> offends my feel for the language. As I've said, I think the adverbial
> use of "lesser" is to be avoided; even the uses some people judge
> acceptable are severely restricted, almost to the point where I would
> call them fixed phrases. Would anyone say "a lesser-beautiful woman" or
> "lesser-famous writers"?
out of a shaggy dog story that ended with "...the lesser of two weavils".
bill
Quinn C
Jun 11, 2019, 1:23:15 PM6/11/19
to
* bill van:
> I know what you mean about fixed phrases. I used to get some mileage
> out of a shaggy dog story that ended with "...the lesser of two weavils".
Is that a weaving weevil? If there is such a thing.
Or were you thinking of this Pokemon, which I think is more like an
evil weasel:
<https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Weavile_(Pok%C3%A9mon)>
--
But I have nver chosen my human environment. I have always
borrowed it from someone like you or Monk or Doris.
-- Jane Rule, This Is Not For You, p.152
> I know what you mean about fixed phrases. I used to get some mileage
> out of a shaggy dog story that ended with "...the lesser of two weavils".
Or were you thinking of this Pokemon, which I think is more like an
evil weasel:
<https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Weavile_(Pok%C3%A9mon)>
--
But I have nver chosen my human environment. I have always
borrowed it from someone like you or Monk or Doris.
-- Jane Rule, This Is Not For You, p.152
bill van
Jun 12, 2019, 8:56:44 PM6/12/19
to
On 2019-06-11 17:23:12 +0000, Quinn C said:
> * bill van:
>
>> I know what you mean about fixed phrases. I used to get some mileage
>> out of a shaggy dog story that ended with "...the lesser of two weavils".
>
> Is that a weaving weevil? If there is such a thing.
>
> Or were you thinking of this Pokemon, which I think is more like an
> evil weasel:
> <https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Weavile_(Pok%C3%A9mon)>
Nope. Just forgot how to spell it. Shaggy dogs are an oral tradition.
> * bill van:
>
>> I know what you mean about fixed phrases. I used to get some mileage
>> out of a shaggy dog story that ended with "...the lesser of two weavils".
>
> Is that a weaving weevil? If there is such a thing.
>
> Or were you thinking of this Pokemon, which I think is more like an
> evil weasel:
> <https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Weavile_(Pok%C3%A9mon)>
bill
bebe...@aol.com
Jun 13, 2019, 1:22:35 AM6/13/19
to
Quinn C
Jun 13, 2019, 1:15:40 PM6/13/19
to
* bebe...@aol.com:
I figured out what you mean, but really, it doesn't sound the same
(because of stress.)
--
Spell checker (n.) One who gives examinations on witchcraft.
Herman Rubin in sci.lang
(because of stress.)
--
Spell checker (n.) One who gives examinations on witchcraft.
Herman Rubin in sci.lang
Sam Plusnet
Jul 11, 2019, 4:29:17 PM7/11/19
to
--
Sam Plusnet
0 new messages