Brow, bray and tray
Vinny Burgoo
large stag, the Right Honourable the Lord Pearson of Rannoch is quoted
as saying something about the 'brow, bay and tray' of the perfect set
of antlers. I can guess what the milord means by 'brow' and 'tray' but
not 'bay' and I have no idea what the perfect balance between the
three might be.
Here's the quote. Charles Moore, a former editor of the Telegraph who
was once described as 'buttocky', is discussing the anatomy of a stag
called 'The Emperor'.
'And although the Emperor was/is a magnificent specimen, Lord Pearson
of Rannoch, one of the nation's great red deer experts, assures me
that, judging from photographs, the "points" on his antlers are
"fairly weak" and do not have the balance between "brow, bay and tray"
of the perfect specimen.'
I can't find any explanation online of what these two great men might
be on about. Can anyone enlighten? Perhaps someone from the USA, where
trophy-hunting is more widespread, down-to-earth and well-developed.
Is Pearson bluffing in a clubbable, oneupmanship type of way or is
there such a thing as the perfect balance of 'brow, bay and tray'?
--
VB
Speaking of the Telegraph, Louise Gray's punctuation, spelling and
grammar (and factual accuracy) have all suddenly improved this week so
The Daily Gray has been suspended.
Jerry Friedman
> In an article in the Telegraph about the killing of a particularly
> large stag, the Right Honourable the Lord Pearson of Rannoch is quoted
> as saying something about the 'brow, bay and tray' of the perfect set
> of antlers. I can guess what the milord means by 'brow' and 'tray' but
> not 'bay'
"When the pods went pop on the broom, green broom,
And apples began to be golden-skinn'd,
We harbour'd a stag in the Priory coomb,
And we feather'd his trail up-wind, up-wind,
We feather'd his trail up-wind-
A stag of warrant, a stag, a stag,
A runnable stag, a kingly crop,
Brow, bay and tray and three on top,
A stag, a runnable stag."
John Davidson, "A Runnable Stag"
http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/a-runnable-stag/
As I recall, "brow" is the tine of the antler over the, well, you
know. "Bay" is the next one up, and "tray" is the next one above
that. So Davidson's stag was a twelve-pointer.
> and I have no idea what the perfect balance between the
> three might be.
...
Me neither. But I like your suggestion of one-upmanship (snipped).
--
Jerry Friedman
Leslie Danks
> In an article in the Telegraph about the killing of a particularly
> large stag, the Right Honourable the Lord Pearson of Rannoch is quoted
> as saying something about the 'brow, bay and tray' of the perfect set
> of antlers. I can guess what the milord means by 'brow' and 'tray' but
> not 'bay' and I have no idea what the perfect balance between the
> three might be.
According to Wikipedia:
[quote]
An advancer is a term used by hunters for one of the starts or branches
of a buck's attire between the back antler and the "palm" (the flattened
part of the antlers). In other words, the advancer is the second branch
of a buck's antler. Other words to describe antler anatomy are: pedicle,
beam, palm, _brow, bez, trez_, royal, and surroyal. These are the base,
main shaft, flattened center, first tine, second tine, third tine,
fourth tine, and fifth or more tines, respectively.
[endquote]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antler>
Could it be that "bez"=bay and "trez"=tray - kind of French and
therefore outside the reality zone of a Torygraph reporter.
And lo:
[quote]
bez antler (bez, bāz)
bay antler
Origin: < OFr bes- < L bis, twice + antler
[endquote]
<http://www.yourdictionary.com/bez-antler>
leading to:
[quote]
bay antler
the second branch from the base of a deer's horn
[endquote]
<http://www.yourdictionary.com/bay-antler>
And:
[quote]
trez tine
- 3 dictionary results
trez-tine
/ˈtrɛztaɪn/ Show Spelled[trez-tahyn] Show IPA
–noun
royal antler.
the third prong from the base of a stag's antler.
[endquote]
<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trez+tine?qsrc=2446>
> Here's the quote. Charles Moore, a former editor of the Telegraph who
> was once described as 'buttocky', is discussing the anatomy of a stag
> called 'The Emperor'.
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/charlesmoore/8096989/Was-the-Emperor-of-Exmoors-death-quite-what-it-seemed.html
>
> 'And although the Emperor was/is a magnificent specimen, Lord Pearson
> of Rannoch, one of the nation's great red deer experts, assures me
> that, judging from photographs, the "points" on his antlers are
> "fairly weak" and do not have the balance between "brow, bay and tray"
> of the perfect specimen.'
>
> I can't find any explanation online of what these two great men might
> be on about. Can anyone enlighten? Perhaps someone from the USA, where
> trophy-hunting is more widespread, down-to-earth and well-developed.
> Is Pearson bluffing in a clubbable, oneupmanship type of way or is
> there such a thing as the perfect balance of 'brow, bay and tray'?
>
> --
> VB
> Speaking of the Telegraph, Louise Gray's punctuation, spelling and
> grammar (and factual accuracy) have all suddenly improved this week so
> The Daily Gray has been suspended.
--
Les (BrE)
John Dean
> On 29/10/10 23:39, Vinny Burgoo wrote:
>> In an article in the Telegraph about the killing of a particularly
>> large stag, the Right Honourable the Lord Pearson of Rannoch is
>> quoted as saying something about the 'brow, bay and tray' of the
>> perfect set of antlers. I can guess what the milord means by 'brow'
>> and 'tray' but not 'bay' and I have no idea what the perfect balance
>> between the three might be.
>
> According to Wikipedia:
>
> [quote]
> An advancer is a term used by hunters for one of the starts or
> branches of a buck's attire between the back antler and the "palm"
> (the flattened part of the antlers). In other words, the advancer is
> the second branch of a buck's antler. Other words to describe antler
> anatomy are: pedicle, beam, palm, _brow, bez, trez_, royal, and
> surroyal. These are the base, main shaft, flattened center, first
> tine, second tine, third tine, fourth tine, and fifth or more tines,
> respectively. [endquote]
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antler>
>
> Could it be that "bez"=bay and "trez"=tray - kind of French and
> therefore outside the reality zone of a Torygraph reporter.
>
> And lo:
> [quote]
> bay antler
>
> Origin: < OFr bes- < L bis, twice + antler
> [endquote]
> <http://www.yourdictionary.com/bez-antler>
> leading to:
> [quote]
> bay antler
> the second branch from the base of a deer's horn
> [endquote]
> <http://www.yourdictionary.com/bay-antler>
>
> And:
> [quote]
> trez tine
> - 3 dictionary results
> trez-tine
> -noun
> royal antler.
> the third prong from the base of a stag's antler.
> [endquote]
> <http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trez+tine?qsrc=2446>
>
OED says of 'bay n6'
[short for bay-antler, earlier be- or bes-antlier, f. OF. bes twice, second,
secondary + antler.]
The second branch of a stag's horn, formerly also called the sur-antlier,
being next above the 'antler' proper, or (as it is now called) brow-antler.
[1611 Cotgr, Surandoillier, the beankler or second branch of a Deere's
head.] 1863 Kingsley Water-Bab. ii. 67 You may+know+what his rights mean,
if he has them, brow, bay, tray, and points. 1884 Jefferies Red Deer iv. 69
This is a full horn; brow, bay, tray, and three on top, or six points a
side. Ibid. 71 The ancient terms+next the bez-antlier, now the bay.
And of 'tray n4':
[The same word as trey three, in dice, cards, etc.; re-spelt after bay n.6
Believed to go back in oral use to 18th c. at least.]
The third branch of a stag's horn. Also tray antler, tine.
And in 'brow' they have:
brow-antler, the lowest tine of the horn of a stag, the 'antler' in its
original sense;
--
John Dean
Oxford
Vinny Burgoo
>On Oct 29, 3:39 pm, Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> In an article in the Telegraph about the killing of a particularly
>> large stag, the Right Honourable the Lord Pearson of Rannoch is quoted
>> as saying something about the 'brow, bay and tray' of the perfect set
>> of antlers. I can guess what the milord means by 'brow' and 'tray' but
>> not 'bay'
>
>"When the pods went pop on the broom, green broom,
>And apples began to be golden-skinn'd,
>We harbour'd a stag in the Priory coomb,
>And we feather'd his trail up-wind, up-wind,
>We feather'd his trail up-wind-
>A stag of warrant, a stag, a stag,
>A runnable stag, a kingly crop,
>Brow, bay and tray and three on top,
>A stag, a runnable stag."
>
>John Davidson, "A Runnable Stag"
>
>http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/a-runnable-stag/
>
>As I recall, "brow" is the tine of the antler over the, well, you
>know. "Bay" is the next one up, and "tray" is the next one above
>that. So Davidson's stag was a twelve-pointer.
I don't know which is scarier: your knowing the poem or your knowing the
parts of an antler. Thanks.
--
VB,
whose guesses were mostly wrong
Vinny Burgoo
Thanks to you both. Pleasingly ancient derivations.
--
VB,
who seems to have been a bit dictionary-shy
Jerry Friedman
Is it okay if I was remembering the parts of an antler from the notes
to the poem? And if I have the poem in an anthology I read for a
college class?
--
Jerry Friedman
Leslie Danks
> On Oct 31, 8:36 am, Vinny Burgoo<hlu...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> In alt.usage.english, Jerry Friedman wrote:
[...]
>>> As I recall, "brow" is the tine of the antler over the, well, you
>>> know. "Bay" is the next one up, and "tray" is the next one above
>>> that. So Davidson's stag was a twelve-pointer.
>>
>> I don't know which is scarier: your knowing the poem or your knowing the
>> parts of an antler. Thanks.
>
> Is it okay if I was remembering the parts of an antler from the notes
> to the poem? And if I have the poem in an anthology I read for a
> college class?
Staggering!
--
Les (BrE)
rowa...@gmail.com
...reading Patric Dickinson's translation of The Aeneid...
And first Aeneas sniped the leading stags-
Brow,bay,and trey,with antlers big as trees-
I had no idea what that might mean...
Leslie Danks
[q] The tines on a Red Deer’s antlers have special names. Working up from
the pedicle, these are called the brow, bey, trey, sur-royal and crown,
which may consist of a number of tines at the top. If there are two tines
at the top, it’s called a fork; if there are three or more, it’s called a
palm. [/q]
<http://stagantlers.co.uk/deer-antlers/red-deer>
I'm not sure what "sniped" means in this context. I doubt that Aeneas owned
a Kalashnikov.
--
Les (BrE)
I frog mi wos i do dua - STS
Martin Ambuhl
A reference to the actual passage would be useful
Here are some different versions.
From a prose version by David West (Penguin. 1990)
[Book I, ll. 190f]
First he took down the three leaders with their high heads of branching
antlers.
From a verse version by Allen Mandelbaum (Bantam, 1961)
[Book I, ll. 262-263]
And first he lays the leaders low, their heads
held high with tree-like antlers; ...
From a verse version by Robert Fitzgerald (Vintage, 1981)
[Book I, ll.256-267]
Then, aiming for the leaders with heads high
And branching antlers, brought them first to earth.
J. J. Lodder
Jan