HELP! 'bag' or 'sack'?
Max Crittenden
Hofmann) wrote:
> I'm from Germany and when I came to the US a few months ago, I had to
> find out that I had no clue how to use the word 'bag' and
> the word 'sack'. How do YOU use those words?
In general, I would say a sack is bigger and rougher. But there's a
geographical factor at work too. I'm a native Californian, and to me
the brown paper thing that groceries are put in is a bag. But my
stepmother is from Iowa, and to her, even the small plastic things
that you put your vegetables in (that come on a roll in the produce
section) are sacks! So I guess you have to pick your own dividing
line between bags and sacks.
--
Max Crittenden
"As of this date, I hate no state." -- Jonathan RIchman
Evan Kirshenbaum
Mark Odegard <mlo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <3hp1s8$a...@news.cc.utah.edu> ah0...@u.cc.utah.edu (Kathrin Hofmann)
>writes:
>>
>>I'm from Germany and when I came to the US a few months ago, I had to
>>find out that I had no clue how to use the word 'bag' and
>>function of this thing is (groceries, lunch, trash, books,...), or does
>>it depend on the size or the material.
>>Can a 'sack' have handle?
>>Is a sack something you throw away after having used it?
>>What would YOU use a 'bag' for? What would YOU use a 'sack' for?
>>Is a 'bag' something that is "nicer" than a 'sack'?
>>
>>I am not interested in what the OED or any other dictionary says. I
>>want to know how 'real'people use it.
>>
>>It would be great if I could get some information. I don't know why,
>>but I get a kick out of those things.
>
>Bag/sack are used interchangeably in many contexts. A grocery sack is
>that brown paper thing. A grocery bag *can* be the same thing, but that
>plastic thing most groceries come in now is always a bag.
>Potatoes and apples can come in sacks, as can onions, beans, and split
>peas. It's always a sack of rice, a sack of flour, sugar. But you
>might hear of it as a bag too. Concrete comes in sacks too, as does
>manure and potting soil. These kinds of sacks are sealed shut until you
>yourself open them.
Just to give you a different set of intuitions (Mark's are undoubtedly
correct for his dialect), for me, as far as I can tell, the
distinction is one of material. A "sack" is made of cloth; anything
else is a "bag". Further, a sack must be "bag shaped" (a tube with a
bottom) with perhaps a drawstring or tie on the open end. Anything
with a zipper or more complicated fastener (as a purse or suitcase) or
a handle (as a bookbag) is a "bag".
Sacks are very seldom used in my dialect, being restricted mainly to
units of bulk commerce, as a sack of flour, potatoes, etc. (Note that
when I go to the store, I generally buy a bag of flour (made of paper)
and a bag of potatoes (made of plastic).)
I was born in 1964 in Chicago.
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories | The whole idea of our government is
3500 Deer Creek Road, Building 26U | this: if enough people get together
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | and act in concert, they can take
| something and not pay for it.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke
(415)857-7572
Alan Leary
> Is a sack something you throw away after having used it?
> What would YOU use a 'bag' for? What would YOU use a 'sack' for?
> Is a 'bag' something that is "nicer" than a 'sack'?
A 'sack' is generally larger than a 'bag' and is usually
made of a woven material like hessian.
a sack of flour a wheat sack
a lunch bag a bag of cookies
+--------------------------------------------------+
/ -=-=- MY OPINIONS -=-=- \
/ \
/ I may be bagged for them, but I hope my \
/ employer doesn't sack me for them. \
+------------------------------------------------------------+
| Alan Leary email: a...@cs.rmit.oz.au |
| Department of Computer Science voice: 61-3-660 2711 |
| RMIT Melbourne Australia mobile: 61-015 316764 |
+------------------------------------------------------------+
Truly Donovan
>I'm from Germany and when I came to the US a few months ago, I had to
>find out that I had no clue how to use the word 'bag' and
>the word 'sack'. How do YOU use those words? Does it depend on what the
>function of this thing is (groceries, lunch, trash, books,...), or does
>it depend on the size or the material.
>Can a 'sack' have handle?
>Is a sack something you throw away after having used it?
>What would YOU use a 'bag' for? What would YOU use a 'sack' for?
>Is a 'bag' something that is "nicer" than a 'sack'?
>I am not interested in what the OED or any other dictionary says. I want
>to know how 'real'people use it.
>It would be great if I could get some information. I don't know why, but
>I get a kick out of those things.
Sacks are a subset of all bags. Some bags are nicer than all sacks. Sacks
didn't have handles until they started making them out of plastic with holes
for your hands (is a hole for your hand a handle? this is more complicated
than I thought). "Bag" is the more common term in the regions in which I
have lived, but that doesn't mean that there are not regions where "sack" is
the more common term for that subset of bags.
After you've been here a while longer, you may want to explore the rich
territory of regional differences among purses, pocketbooks, and handbags.
Truly Donovan
Judith Puddy
In a previous posting, Kathrin Hofmann (ah0...@u.cc.utah.edu) writes: >
I'm from Germany and when I came to the US a few months ago, I had to >
find out that I had no clue how to use the word 'bag' and > the word
'sack'. How do YOU use those words? Does it depend on what the > function
of this thing is (groceries, lunch, trash, books,...), or does > it depend
on the size or the material. > Can a 'sack' have handle? > Is a sack
something you throw away after having used it? > What would YOU use a
'bag' for? What would YOU use a 'sack' for? > Is a 'bag' something that is
"nicer" than a 'sack'?
>
Speaking as a Canadian, I can only say the US usage of "bag" and "sack"
surprised me as well. Many years ago, when I was about 14, I bought something
small in an American store and the clerk stopped me cold when she said,
"Would you like that in a sack?" In Canada we got potatoes and coal in sacks,
which were made of a coarse brown cloth known as "gunny-sack". I had no
idea she meant a paper bag.
In Canada we still say lunch bag, garbage bag, grocery bag - but potatoes
come in plastic bags now! And I haven't seen a sack of coal for about 30
years.
I think Americans use "bag" to mean "purse" or "handbag".
Judy
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The sun rose slowly, like a fiery fur ball coughed up uneasily onto a sky-
blue carpet by a giant unseen cat. - Tom Goff
Ken Holt
> Bag/sack are used interchangeably in many contexts. A grocery sack is
> that brown paper thing. A grocery bag *can* be the same thing, but that
> plastic thing most groceries come in now is always a bag.
[snip]
> I can see why you are going crazy. The words really are almost
> interchangeable in most contexts, but not all.
> Howabout this: a sack is kind of bag. All sacks are bags, but not all
> bags are sacks.
... Unless you're talking about the verbs. :-)
To bag something usually means to discard it. Of course, it could
also refer to the process of putting something into bags, such as
bagging sand.
To sack something implies damage or severe setback,
e.g. to sack the quarterback (in American football),
to sack an employee (terminate employment),
or the sacking of Rome.
I've never seen "sack" used as a verb meaning to put something
into a sack, though.
Come to think of it, is the verb "sack" somehow derived
from "ransack"?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Holt kh...@telerama.lm.com http://www.lm.com/~kholt
"Early music lover, word nerd, and computer junkie."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Odegard
Sacking groceries. I sometimes sack my own groceries. I could just as
easily say I bag them too. To sack: to place into a sack.
Richard Treitel
|> I'm from Germany and when I came to the US a few months ago, I had to
|> find out that I had no clue how to use the word 'bag' and
|> the word 'sack'. How do YOU use those words?
Well, I only say 'sack' to mean a big strong bag (usually made of
cloth or perhaps plastic) used for freight, almost certainly holding
at least fifty pounds of some freight -- cement, carrots, you name it.
Americans seem to use it for smaller bags.
-- Richard
"Some magics *are* distinguishable from any advanced technology."
(If my employer holds these views, it hasn't told me.)
Pierre Jelenc
Judith Puddy <av...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
>Speaking as a Canadian, I can only say the US usage of "bag" and "sack"
>surprised me as well. Many years ago, when I was about 14, I bought something
>small in an American store and the clerk stopped me cold when she said,
Which part of the country? It makes a big difference.
>"Would you like that in a sack?" In Canada we got potatoes and coal in sacks,
>which were made of a coarse brown cloth known as "gunny-sack". I had no
>idea she meant a paper bag.
>
>In Canada we still say lunch bag, garbage bag, grocery bag - but potatoes
>come in plastic bags now!
And so do we in New York.
> And I haven't seen a sack of coal for about 30 years.
Except of course in "The Mote in God's Eye"! :-)
Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc Why should I have to w o r k for everything?!
rc...@panix.com It's like saying I don't deserve it!
Calvin & Hobbes
http://www.columbia.edu/~pcj1/
Ned Mantei
(Judith Puddy) wrote:
> I think Americans use "bag" to mean "purse" or "handbag".
>
It depends on where in the U.S.A. you are. "Sack" is used more in the
South and "bag" in the North, but I don't know exactly where the dividing
line is. There's also the "poke", as in "pig in a poke", but I have never
heard this used.
--
Ned Mantei
Neurobiology, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology
CH-8093 Zurich, Switzerland
man...@neuro.biol.ethz.ch
00nzwi...@bsuvc.bsu.edu
This ain't gonna be finished up 'til you deal with "poke."
--
Nyal Z. Williams
00nzwi...@bsuvc.bsu.edu
Ed Costello
> I'm from Germany and when I came to the US a few months ago, I had to
> find out that I had no clue how to use the word 'bag' and
> the word 'sack'. How do YOU use those words? Does it depend on what the
> function of this thing is (groceries, lunch, trash, books,...), or does
> it depend on the size or the material.
> Can a 'sack' have handle?
> Is a sack something you throw away after having used it?
> What would YOU use a 'bag' for? What would YOU use a 'sack' for?
> Is a 'bag' something that is "nicer" than a 'sack'?
>
> I am not interested in what the OED or any other dictionary says. I want
> to know how 'real'people use it.
>
> It would be great if I could get some information. I don't know why, but
> I get a kick out of those things.
>
> Thanks!
As regards employment:
When an employee is fed-up with a job, he might stomp out saying "Bag this
place!"
Whereas,
When an employer releases an employee, the employee is "sacked".
Hope this helps. :)
--
Ed Costello
Coby (Jacob) Lubliner
us call "bag" is due to the influence of the German "Sack". If that
were so, it would most likely be a Midwestern thing. Is it?
Coby
Mark Odegard
Lubliner) writes:
Sack and bag are interchangeable everywhere I've lived (Northern
California, Iowa, New York), unlike the soda, pop, soda-pop paradigm. A
sack is a kind of bag, but all bags are not necessarily sacks.
It's a paper sack but a plastic bag, and you can sack groceries into a
plastic bag as easily as you can bag groceries into a paper sack.
Elizabeth Patricia Citta
I'm originally from the Midwest, and I do believe that you are right
about that. 85% of the people in my town, including myself, had some
German heritage, and I've noticed our tendency to use "bag" and "sack"
differently than the West Coasters do.
Chris Malcolm
>In article <D40nu...@freenet.carleton.ca>, av...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
>(Judith Puddy) wrote:
>It depends on where in the U.S.A. you are. "Sack" is used more in the
>South and "bag" in the North, but I don't know exactly where the dividing
>line is. There's also the "poke", as in "pig in a poke", but I have never
>heard this used.
It depends where you are. In Scotland a poke is a small bag, often
crudely constructed, e.g., you can buy a bag of chips, or a poke of
chips. Greedy people buy sweets by the bag, others buy them in pokes.
What chips are depends where you are: in Britain fried fingers of
potato are called chips, whereas (I think) in the US chips are thin
slices of potato fried to a crisp (which in Britain are called
crisps).
You will have much better results finding out about local usages by
consulting LARGE dictionaries which deal with local usages than you
will by asking people -- individual people often get individual usages
wrong, by which I mean they use them differently from most of their
fellows, which causes them communication problems. They don't change,
however, because they are convinced they are right ("my mother always
said..." etc.).
--
Chris Malcolm c...@uk.ac.ed.aifh +44 (0)31 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK DoD #205
"The mind reigns, but does not govern" -- Paul Valery
Edwin S. Russell
> Sack and bag are interchangeable everywhere I've lived (Northern
> California, Iowa, New York), unlike the soda, pop, soda-pop paradigm. A
> sack is a kind of bag, but all bags are not necessarily sacks.
In my experience, the two words are almost always interchangeable. but some
usages are more common. In this area, one normally hears of a sack of
cement but I have also heard bag of cement used. One refers to a sack lunch
but it may be in a paper bag or paper sack. The people that put groceries
into the container are called baggers. Groceries are usually put into
bags although one has a choice of a paper bag or a plastic bag in many
places. On the other hand, if one puts a grocery bag over one's head it
would often be referred to as putting a paper sack over one's head. A
sack of potatoes would *usually* be used to refer to the 50 pounds that
comes in a gunny sack and I have never heard the experssion gunny bag.
However, I have heard both sack and bag applied to the 10 or 20 pound bags
of potatoes. One term for the canvas bags that have a drawstring or zipper
is tote bags and I have never heard the expression tote sack.
In short, I doubt that there is any consistency.
In a different vein, when one refers to an older lady with a less than
pleasing personality, one refers to an "old bag", never an old sack.
--
Ed Russell e...@slac.stanford.edu
Stanford Linear Accelerator Center Palo Alto/Menlo Park, California
Judith Puddy
> In article <D40nu...@freenet.carleton.ca>,
> Judith Puddy <av...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>>
>>surprised me as well. Many years ago, when I was about 14, I bought something
>>small in an American store and the clerk stopped me cold when she said,
> Which part of the country? It makes a big difference.
Wow, I had no idea this query would escalate into a major event.
The part of the country where I had my enlightening experience was:
Spokane, Washington.
Steve Hayes
>I'm from Germany and when I came to the US a few months ago, I had to
>find out that I had no clue how to use the word 'bag' and
>the word 'sack'. How do YOU use those words? Does it depend on what the
>function of this thing is (groceries, lunch, trash, books,...), or does
>it depend on the size or the material.
>Can a 'sack' have handle?
>Is a sack something you throw away after having used it?
>What would YOU use a 'bag' for? What would YOU use a 'sack' for?
>Is a 'bag' something that is "nicer" than a 'sack'?
I don't know about the US, but in this country there is a fairly clear
distinction.
A sack is bigger than a bag, and is usually used to hold dry or granulated
substances, like cement, corn etc. They are usually made of jute
(sackcloth, or sometimes, I think, in the US, called burlap). Nowadays,
however, they are often made of heavy-duty plastic.
Bags are much more varied in shape, size and what they hold. There are
handbags and shoulder bags with straps, there are plastic bags that
groceries are put in when you have bought them, there are paper bags used
for similar purposees. They can have straps or handles, but need not.
============================================================
Steve Hayes, Editorial Department, University of South Africa
P.O. Box 392, Pretoria, 0001 South Africa
Internet: haye...@risc1.unisa.ac.za Fidonet: 5:7106/20.1
steve...@p1.f20.n7106.z5.fidonet.org
Ned Mantei
(Jacob) Lubliner) wrote:
A nice idea, but I think unlikely. I grew up in Milwaukee, which is
heavily German, but it was completely in the "bag" camp.
Max Crittenden
e...@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU wrote:
> One term for the canvas bags that have a drawstring or zipper
> is tote bags and I have never heard the expression tote sack.
^^^^^^^^^
Hey wait a minute, didn't you ever hear that dumb song "Poke Salad Annie"
(ca. 1970 I believe)? As I recall, it ran (in part):
every day before suppertime
she'd go out behind the truck patch
and pick her a mess of poke salad
and carry it home in a tote sack
^^^^^^^^^
Which brings us back to "poke". You'd think that poke salad would
be so called because it was carried in a poke, not a tote sack, but
that's artistic license I guess.
--
Max Crittenden
"Let me wipe it first; it smells of mortality." -- King Lear
David M. Tate
Max Crittenden <max_cri...@qm.sri.com> wrote:
>Hey wait a minute, didn't you ever hear that dumb song "Poke Salad Annie"
>(ca. 1970 I believe)? As I recall, it ran (in part):
>
> every day before suppertime
> she'd go out behind the truck patch
> and pick her a mess of poke salad
> and carry it home in a tote sack
> ^^^^^^^^^
>Which brings us back to "poke". You'd think that poke salad would
>be so called because it was carried in a poke, not a tote sack, but
>that's artistic license I guess.
'Poke salad' is so called because it is made of poke, not because it
is carried in one.
Poke, or poke-weed, is an exceptionally common plant in North America.
It has oblong leaves, shaped rather like the profile of an American
football, somewhat pointed at the tips. It's also a tricky devil; the
young leaves are tender and tasty when cooked; the mature leaves, stems,
and berries are poisonous. I've eaten poke, but lamb's-quarters is
tastier, safer, and just as common by the roadside.
I'll see if I can dredge up a genus/species somewhere...
--
David M. Tate Decision-Science Applications, Inc.
dt...@dsava.com 1110 N. Glebe Road, Suite 400
Senior Operations Research Analyst Arlington, VA 22201
(703) 243-2500
Steve Hayes
>> After you've been here a while longer, you may want to explore the rich
>> territory of regional differences among purses, pocketbooks, and handbags.
>
>This ain't gonna be finished up 'til you deal with "poke."
But pokes are only what you buy pigs in.
Richard Bristow
upper class Brits use `bag' as in ` We bagged a lot of pheasants'
and most Brits now fear the `sack' in the sense of being fired.
Where did `get the sack' come from?
Charlie Mitchell
mlo...@ix.netcom.com (Mark Odegard) writes:
>In <1995Feb15.1...@bsuvc.bsu.edu> 00nzwi...@bsuvc.bsu.edu
>writes:
>>
>>
>>
>
>A poke is a bag. It's etymologically related to "pocket." When pocket
>is the diminutive of poke, poke is indeed a very old word.
>
>As to exactly what kind of bag, I have no idea, though I suspect it was
>related to what we might today call a duffel slung over and supported by
>a shoulder. I don't think it was a saddlebag.
>
At one time I lived in a small town in northeast Ohio.
in the general store there, they referred to a small paper bag
(my usual word) as a "poke".
In fact, they may have referred to all paper bags as pokes, but
the image I have in my mind is a small one.
This usage is very regional, and probably is used in regions
other than the one mentioned. Or is it a rural-urban thing? This
town had a population of 500, so it was quite rural and perhaps
old-fashioned in its ways of speech.
Charlie "never bought a pig in one of those pokes, however"
Duncan Gibson
>
>Where did `get the sack' come from?
From "To Coin A Phrase", Radford & Smith, ISBN 0-333-49946-8:
To get the sack: The origin of this most widespread euphemism for
being dismissed from one's job is said to have been the custom of
workmen leaving the bag or sack in which they first brought their
tools with the employer. If they lost the job they "got the sack"
and took their tools away with them. Frankly it does not convince
but a better suggestion has yet to be made. Since the introduction
in Britain of National Insurance on the eve of the First World War,
the expression "to get your cards", i.e. be given your insurance
cards to take away, has become quite as common.
This is my article, not my employer's, with my opinions and my disclaimer!
--
Duncan Gibson, ESTEC/YCV, Postbus 299, 2200AG Noordwijk, The Netherlands
Preferred email: dun...@yc.estec.esa.nl or ...!sun4nl!esatst!duncan
Desperate email: dgi...@estec.esa.nl or dgi...@ESTEC.BITNET
Geoff Butler
g...@natcorp.ox.ac.uk "Glynis Baguley" writes:
> Well, it must have been big enough to hold a pig, or at least to look
> as if it could.
True, but merely a piglet of the smallest kind. Cf 'let the cat out of
the bag', which is closely related to 'buy a pig in a poke'.
Geoff Butler
Glynis Baguley
>
> A poke is a bag. It's etymologically related to "pocket." When pocket
> is the diminutive of poke, poke is indeed a very old word.
>
> As to exactly what kind of bag, I have no idea, though I suspect it was
> related to what we might today call a duffel slung over and supported by
> a shoulder. I don't think it was a saddlebag.
Well, it must have been big enough to hold a pig, or at least to look
as if it could.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{ Glynis....@oucs.ox.ac.uk }
{ Oxford University Computing Services }
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stuart Burnfield
David M. Tate <dta...@pitt.edu> wrote:
>In article <max_crittenden-...@128.18.42.3>,
>Max Crittenden <max_cri...@qm.sri.com> wrote:
>
>>Hey wait a minute, didn't you ever hear that dumb song "Poke Salad Annie"
>>(ca. 1970 I believe)? As I recall, it ran (in part):
I've heard this song occasionally for years, but I never knew who sang it
until I saw it in a CD shop on the weekend, the day after reading this
post. His name is something like Tommy Lee White. A country singer with
three names, if that helps narrow it down any ;^)
>>
>> every day before suppertime
>> she'd go out behind the truck patch
>> and pick her a mess of poke salad
>> and carry it home in a tote sack
>> ^^^^^^^^^
A great sing-along-very-loudly-with-the-car-stereo song.
>>Which brings us back to "poke". You'd think that poke salad would
>>be so called because it was carried in a poke, not a tote sack, but
>>that's artistic license I guess.
>
>'Poke salad' is so called because it is made of poke, not because it
>is carried in one.
Second surprise; the title is 'Polk Salad Annie'.
Wasn't there a mid-19th C U.S. president by this name? I always thought
the 'l' would be pronounced, as in 'cold', 'dolt', etc. In the song, 'polk'
is pronounced as in 'folk', 'broke', 'Coke', etc.
>Poke, or poke-weed, is an exceptionally common plant in North America.
>It has oblong leaves, shaped rather like the profile of an American
>football, somewhat pointed at the tips. It's also a tricky devil; the
>young leaves are tender and tasty when cooked; the mature leaves, stems,
>and berries are poisonous. I've eaten poke, but lamb's-quarters is
>tastier, safer, and just as common by the roadside.
>
>I'll see if I can dredge up a genus/species somewhere...
--
Stuart Burnfield What the famous philosophers said about
Voice: +61 9 328 8288 Stuart Burnfield
PO Box 192 Leederville "...nasty, brutish and short"
Western Australia 6903 Hobbes "Leviathan"