First name A

[Quinn C]

One NPR radio host only goes by "A" as a first name.

That made another journalist sound unexpectedly Canadian the other day,
when she said "Thanks, A".

--
"I didn't mind getting old when I was young, either," I said.
"It's the being old now that's getting to me."
-- J. Scalzi, Old Man's War

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 4:14:00 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> One NPR radio host only goes by "A" as a first name.
>
> That made another journalist sound unexpectedly Canadian the other day,
> when she said "Thanks, A".

"How do you spell Canada?"

By the way, I've noticed a distressing tendency to spell "eh" as "ay" or "aye".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Richard Heathfield]

On 24/03/2022 10:25 pm, Jerry Friedman wrote:
<snip>

> "How do you spell Canada?"

Personally, I spell it Charlie Alpha November Alpha Delta Alpha, but I
used to pronounce it 'Canadia' (I have no idea why).

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 6:14:00 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:

> One NPR radio host only goes by "A" as a first name.
>
> That made another journalist sound unexpectedly Canadian the other day,
> when she said "Thanks, A".

When he turned up a few months ago, I had to assume he wasn't
the same A. Martinez who wrote for The New Yorker decades ago.
Maybe including a long piece on poker.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 6:31:26 PM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 24/03/2022 10:25 pm, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> > "How do you spell Canada?"
>
> Personally, I spell it Charlie Alpha November Alpha Delta Alpha, but I
> used to pronounce it 'Canadia' (I have no idea why).

Whereas people who knew what they were talking about would
spell it Alfa.

[Tony Cooper]

I guess we have to exclude NATO from those who know what they're
talking about:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nbbRceKGTZQ/maxresdefault.jpg

and the International Morse Code people:

https://imageproxy.ifunny.co/crop:x-20,resize:640x,quality:90x75/images/0ad3949dc35d8fc13d966be02f6dfd4438a03da6767f4fa16b403a4b39a8a84c_1.jpg

and the writers of this book on nautical codes:

https://www.amazon.com/Alpha-Bravo-Charlie-Complete-Nautical/dp/0714871435

Who's left? The New Jersey Transit System guide to the phonetic
alphabet?

This post for entertainment purposes only.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

I have the distinct impression that he(?) does not go by "A. Martinez",
but explicitly "A Martinez".

| ... with hosts Leila Fadel, Steve Inskeep, Rachel Martin and A Martinez.

<https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510318/up-first>

A lot of the people I know who go by one or two letters are genderqueer,
like Jay and CJ, the hosts of the My Gay Agenda podcast (where Jay used
to use a different name starting in J); it's one way to
gender-neutralize your name.

--
Who would know aught of art must learn and then take his ease.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 25/03/2022 12:23 am, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:22:01 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 6:31:26 PM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>> On 24/03/2022 10:25 pm, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>
>>>> "How do you spell Canada?"
>>>
>>> Personally, I spell it Charlie Alpha November Alpha Delta Alpha, but I
>>> used to pronounce it 'Canadia' (I have no idea why).
>>
>> Whereas people who knew what they were talking about would
>> spell it Alfa.
>
> I guess we have to exclude NATO from those who know what they're
> talking about:
>
> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nbbRceKGTZQ/maxresdefault.jpg

He really is an ass, isn't, he? Even ATIS (an ANSI-accredited standards
organisation based in DC) say in
https://glossary.atis.org/glossary/phonetic-alphabet/ as follows:

A list of standard words used to identify letters in a message
transmitted by radio or telephone. The following are the authorized
words, listed in order, for each letter in the alphabet: Alpha, Bravo,
Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India, Juliet, Kilo, Lima,
Mike, November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec, Romeo, Sierra, Tango, Uniform,
Victor, Whiskey, X-ray, Yankee, Zulu.

Does he never, ever stop to think?

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-03-24 19:56, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 12:23 am, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:22:01 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 6:31:26 PM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 24/03/2022 10:25 pm, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>
>>>>> "How do you spell Canada?"
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I spell it Charlie Alpha November Alpha Delta Alpha, but I
>>>> used to pronounce it 'Canadia' (I have no idea why).
>>>
>>> Whereas people who knew what they were talking about would
>>> spell it Alfa.
>>
>> I guess we have to exclude NATO from those who know what they're
>> talking about:
>>
>> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nbbRceKGTZQ/maxresdefault.jpg
>
>
> He really is an ass, isn't, he? Even ATIS (an ANSI-accredited standards
> organisation based in DC) say in
> https://glossary.atis.org/glossary/phonetic-alphabet/ as follows:
>
> A list of standard words used to identify letters in a message
> transmitted by radio or telephone. The following are the authorized
> words, listed in order, for each letter in the alphabet: Alpha, Bravo,
> Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India, Juliet, Kilo, Lima,
> Mike, November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec, Romeo, Sierra, Tango, Uniform,
> Victor, Whiskey, X-ray, Yankee, Zulu.

That's also the standard for aviation.

IBM used (perhaps they still do) Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog, Easy, Fox.
These are the only ones I remember, because the vertical rows of pins on
a System 360, card cage only went to Fox.

> Does he never, ever stop to think?

Of course not.

[Bebercito]

Le vendredi 25 mars 2022 à 02:56:35 UTC+1, Richard Heathfield a écrit :
> On 25/03/2022 12:23 am, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:22:01 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> > <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 6:31:26 PM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >>> On 24/03/2022 10:25 pm, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >>
> >>>> "How do you spell Canada?"
> >>>
> >>> Personally, I spell it Charlie Alpha November Alpha Delta Alpha, but I
> >>> used to pronounce it 'Canadia' (I have no idea why).
> >>
> >> Whereas people who knew what they were talking about would
> >> spell it Alfa.
> >
> > I guess we have to exclude NATO from those who know what they're
> > talking about:
> >
> > https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nbbRceKGTZQ/maxresdefault.jpg
> He really is an ass, isn't, he? Even ATIS (an ANSI-accredited standards
> organisation based in DC) say in
> https://glossary.atis.org/glossary/phonetic-alphabet/ as follows:
>
> A list of standard words used to identify letters in a message
> transmitted by radio or telephone. The following are the authorized
> words, listed in order, for each letter in the alphabet: Alpha, Bravo,
> Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India, Juliet, Kilo, Lima,
> Mike, November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec, Romeo, Sierra, Tango, Uniform,
> Victor, Whiskey, X-ray, Yankee, Zulu.

PTD seems to be right, as explained here:
---
(...)
In particular, the spelling of “alfa” is not the conventional English spelling “alpha” because this would often be mispronounced by native speakers of some other languages, not knowing that “ph” should be spoken as “f”. Instead, “alfa” is spelled with an “f” as it is in most European languages.

In the same way, notice that “Juliett” is spelled with a “tt”, as otherwise some speakers treated a single final “t” as silent.

Of course, some English writers/versions of the alphabet probably do spell these words as “alpha” and “juliet”, but they have the spellings “alfa” and “juliett” in the official adopted alphabet. See Alphabet - Radiotelephony

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-NATO-phonetic-character-for-A-written-as-Alfa-and-not-Alpha
---

And confirmed by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO)
alphabet:

---
A - Alfa
B - Bravo
C - Charlie
D - Delta
E - Echo
F - Foxtrot
G - Golf
H - Hotel
I - India
J - Juliett
K - Kilo
L - Lima
M - Mike​
​N - November
O - Oscar
P - Papa
Q - Quebec
R - Romeo
S - Sierra
T - Tango
U - Uniform
V - Victor
W - Whiskey
X - X-ray
Y - Yankee
Z - Zulu

https://www.icao.int/Pages/AlphabetRadiotelephony.aspx
---

[Bebercito]

Not according to the ICAO official alphabet, which indicates the
spellings of "Alfa" and "Juliett".

[CDB]

On 3/24/2022 6:25 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> Quinn C wrote:

>> One NPR radio host only goes by "A" as a first name.

>> That made another journalist sound unexpectedly Canadian the other
>> day, when she said "Thanks, A".

> "How do you spell Canada?"

> By the way, I've noticed a distressing tendency to spell "eh" as
> "ay" or "aye".

That's been going on forever and eh.

--
e-i-o-you

[CDB]

On 3/24/2022 9:51 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:

>> Quinn C wrote:

>>> One NPR radio host only goes by "A" as a first name.

>>> That made another journalist sound unexpectedly Canadian the
>>> other day, when she said "Thanks, A".

>> When he turned up a few months ago, I had to assume he wasn't the
>> same A. Martinez who wrote for The New Yorker decades ago. Maybe
>> including a long piece on poker.

> I have the distinct impression that he(?) does not go by "A.
> Martinez", but explicitly "A Martinez".
>
> | ... with hosts Leila Fadel, Steve Inskeep, Rachel Martin and A
> Martinez.

> <https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510318/up-first>

> A lot of the people I know who go by one or two letters are
> genderqueer, like Jay and CJ, the hosts of the My Gay Agenda podcast
> (where Jay used to use a different name starting in J); it's one way
> to gender-neutralize your name.

They didn't get where they are today by being gender-partisan, K?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 12:07:39 AM UTC-4, lar3ryca wrote:

> IBM used (perhaps they still do) Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog, Easy, Fox.
> These are the only ones I remember, because the vertical rows of pins on
> a System 360, card cage only went to Fox.

"Able Baker" is pre-modern. The purpose of the system is to have words
as different as possible so they can be distinguished in noisy environments.
"Able" and "Baker" have identical vowels, and if the momentary consonants
are obscure cannot be securerly identified.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 3:13:48 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:

> PTD seems to be right, as explained here:

Thank you.

[S K]

the curse's zillionth attempt to be the "smartest man in the room" fails as usual.

lingushiteans say vowels are longer before a voiced consonant.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 06:50:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

Smipped false statement restored:

PTD: Whereas people who knew what they were talking about would
spell it Alfa.

>On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 3:13:48 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
>
>> PTD seems to be right, as explained here:
>
>Thank you.

You were not right. "Alfa" is a spelling that it is used by some, but
not by the spelling used by those who know what they're talking about.
*Some* of those who know what they're talking about use "Alpha", and
some use "Alfa".

The International Civil Aviation Organization is no more the decider
than NATO or the other cites I provided.
>

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

I read amd post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[Ken Blake]

Why should whether the final t is silent matter? The purpose of these
words is to identify the letter, and only the first letter of the word
should matter.

--
The real, original Ken Blake, not some other newcomer

[Bebercito]

Of course, but identifying the first letter of the word is done through
recognizing the whole of a well-known word. If some people don't
recognize "Juliet" owing to their non-pronunciation of -t, how can
they be sure that what they hear is an initial "j"?

[Bebercito]

Le vendredi 25 mars 2022 à 15:53:35 UTC+1, Tony Cooper a écrit :
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 06:50:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Smipped false statement restored:
>
> PTD: Whereas people who knew what they were talking about would
> spell it Alfa.
> >On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 3:13:48 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> >
> >> PTD seems to be right, as explained here:
> >
> >Thank you.
> You were not right. "Alfa" is a spelling that it is used by some, but
> not by the spelling used by those who know what they're talking about.
> *Some* of those who know what they're talking about use "Alpha", and
> some use "Alfa".
>
> The International Civil Aviation Organization is no more the decider
> than NATO or the other cites I provided.

But Wiki says that even NATO has now adopted the "Alfa" spelling:

---
The International Radiotelephony Spelling Alphabet, commonly known as the NATO phonetic alphabet, NATO spelling alphabet, ICAO phonetic alphabet or ICAO spelling alphabet, is the most widely used radiotelephone spelling alphabet. The ITU phonetic alphabet and figure code is a rarely used variant that differs in the code words for digits.

To create the code, a series of international agencies assigned 26 code words acrophonically to the letters of the English alphabet, so that the names for letters and numbers would be as distinct as possible so as to be easily understood by those who exchanged voice messages by radio or telephone, regardless of language differences or the quality of the connection. The specific code words varied, as some seemingly distinct words were found to be ineffective in real-life conditions. *In 1956, NATO modified the then-current set of code words used by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO); this modification then became the international standard when it was accepted by the ICAO that year and by the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) a few years later.[1] The words were chosen to be accessible to speakers of French and Spanish in addition to English; the spellings of a couple of code words were changed to facilitate their use.*

Spelling alphabets are often inaccurately called "phonetic alphabets", but they do not indicate phonetics and cannot function as phonetic transcription systems like the International Phonetic Alphabet.

The 26 code words are as follows: Alfa, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India, Juliett, Kilo, Lima, Mike, November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec, Romeo, Sierra, Tango, Uniform, Victor, Whiskey, X-ray, Yankee, Zulu. Numbers are read off as English digits, but the pronunciations of three, four, five, nine and thousand are modified.[2]

Strict adherence to the prescribed spellings—including the apparently misspelled "Alfa" and "Juliett"—is required in order to avoid the problems of confusion that the code is designed to overcome.

<Emphasis mine.>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet
---

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 1:41:35 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> Le vendredi 25 mars 2022 à 17:57:11 UTC+1, Ken Blake a écrit :
> > On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 00:13:46 -0700 (PDT), Bebercito
> > <bebe...@aol.com> wrote:

> > >PTD seems to be right, as explained here:

> > >In particular, the spelling of “alfa” is not the conventional English spelling “alpha” because this would often be mispronounced by native speakers of some other languages, not knowing that “ph” should be spoken as “f”. Instead, “alfa” is spelled with an “f” as it is in most European languages.
> > >In the same way, notice that “Juliett” is spelled with a “tt”, as otherwise some speakers treated a single final “t” as silent.
> > Why should whether the final t is silent matter? The purpose of these
> > words is to identify the letter, and only the first letter of the word
> > should matter.
>
> Of course, but identifying the first letter of the word is done through
> recognizing the whole of a well-known word. If some people don't
> recognize "Juliet" owing to their non-pronunciation of -t, how can
> they be sure that what they hear is an initial "j"?

Blake may not realize that in some languages, words spelled with
a final t don't necessarily end with [t]. After all, French isn't Italian,
which is the one he knows.

[Bebercito]

In the case at hand, "Juliet" can indeed be misleading to French-speakers
in terms of pronunciation, as it can vey likey remind them of "juillet" (July),
which has no final [t] - [ʒɥijε].

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

"Sierra" seems an odd choice, suggesting that the system was invented
with use by Americans primarily in mind. I think probably most
Americans from the western half of the USA know what a sierra is, but
only a small minority of speakers of British English would have any
idea. Even in the eastern USA, how often does "sierra" come up in
ordinary conversation in, say Orlando or Jersey City?

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2022-03-25 18:46:10 +0000, Bebercito said:

> Le vendredi 25 mars 2022 à 19:17:30 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 1:41:35 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:> > Le
>> vendredi 25 mars 2022 à 17:57:11 UTC+1, Ken Blake a écrit :> > > On
>> Fri, 25 Mar 2022 00:13:46 -0700 (PDT), Bebercito> > > <bebe...@aol.com>
>> wrote:>> > > >PTD seems to be right, as explained here:
>>>>> In particular, the spelling of “alfa” is not the conventional English
>>>>> spelling “alpha” because this would often be mispronounced by native
>>>>> speakers of some other languages, not knowing that “ph” should be
>>>>> spoken as “f”. Instead, “alfa” is spelled with an “f” as it is in most
>>>>> European languages.> > > >In the same way, notice that “Juliett” is
>>>>> spelled with a “tt”, as otherwise some speakers treated a single final
>>>>> “t” as silent.> > > Why should whether the final t is silent matter?
>>>>> The purpose of these> > > words is to identify the letter, and only the
>>>>> first letter of the word> > > should matter.> >> > Of course, but
>>>>> identifying the first letter of the word is done through> > recognizing
>>>>> the whole of a well-known word. If some people don't> > recognize
>>>>> "Juliet" owing to their non-pronunciation of -t, how can> > they be
>>>>> sure that what they hear is an initial "j"?
>> Blake may not realize that in some languages, words spelled with> a
>> final t don't necessarily end with [t]. After all, French isn't
>> Italian,> which is the one he knows.

How many Italian words end in t? Not many, I suspect.

>
> In the case at hand, "Juliet" can indeed be misleading to French-speakers
> in terms of pronunciation, as it can vey likey remind them of "juillet" (July),
> which has no final [t] - [ʒɥijε].

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 10:41:33 -0700 (PDT), Bebercito

If I heard someone say something like ZHOOL-yay, I think I would
recognize that the initial letter was J.

[Tony Cooper]

I can go days, months, and even years without using the word "Sierra".
If I was a user of Mac computers, though, I might refer to the
"Sierra" OS that was released in 2016.

If I continued as a private pilot, "Sierra" would be in my active
vocabulary. Aircraft are identified in radio transmission by their
"tail numbers" which usually (if not always) contain letters.

The aircraft that I usually flew was "Mike King Mike (#s forgotten)".
"Kilo" is the proper word for "K", but "King" was accepted by air
traffic control in this area.

I didn't own an airplane, but I belong to a club that jointly owned
MKM ###.

There is a popular beer sold here of the name "Sierra Nevada", but
it's not one I purchase.

I cannot speak for Jersey City, or even as Jersey City residents do.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[Bebercito]

A French-speaker could mishear that as SOOL-yay, which is
the pronunciation of French "soulier" (shoe).

[Peter T. Daniels]

How many in Marseille know what an alfa is? or a delta? a foxtrot?
a mike? an oscar? a zulu?

Another simpleton who can't think before typing.

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 20:32:42 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>On 2022-03-25 18:46:10 +0000, Bebercito said:
>
>> Le vendredi 25 mars 2022 à 19:17:30 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
>>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 1:41:35 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:> > Le
>>> vendredi 25 mars 2022 à 17:57:11 UTC+1, Ken Blake a écrit :> > > On
>>> Fri, 25 Mar 2022 00:13:46 -0700 (PDT), Bebercito> > > <bebe...@aol.com>
>>> wrote:>> > > >PTD seems to be right, as explained here:
>>>>>> In particular, the spelling of “alfa” is not the conventional English
>>>>>> spelling “alpha” because this would often be mispronounced by native
>>>>>> speakers of some other languages, not knowing that “ph” should be
>>>>>> spoken as “f”. Instead, “alfa” is spelled with an “f” as it is in most
>>>>>> European languages.> > > >In the same way, notice that “Juliett” is
>>>>>> spelled with a “tt”, as otherwise some speakers treated a single final
>>>>>> “t” as silent.> > > Why should whether the final t is silent matter?
>>>>>> The purpose of these> > > words is to identify the letter, and only the
>>>>>> first letter of the word> > > should matter.> >> > Of course, but
>>>>>> identifying the first letter of the word is done through> > recognizing
>>>>>> the whole of a well-known word. If some people don't> > recognize
>>>>>> "Juliet" owing to their non-pronunciation of -t, how can> > they be
>>>>>> sure that what they hear is an initial "j"?
>>> Blake may not realize that in some languages, words spelled with> a
>>> final t don't necessarily end with [t]. After all, French isn't
>>> Italian,> which is the one he knows.

I don't "know" Italian. I know *some* Italian, but I'm far from fluent
in it.

A also know *some* French--not as much as I know Italian, but enough
to know that a final consonant is usually not pronounced.

>How many Italian words end in t? Not many, I suspect.

Right, Italian words all (almost all?) end in a vowel, unless they are
words borrowed from another language ("bar" is an example).

>>
>> In the case at hand, "Juliet" can indeed be misleading to French-speakers
>> in terms of pronunciation, as it can vey likey remind them of "juillet" (July),
>> which has no final [t] - [ʒɥijε].

Oy vey, I'll repeat what I said earlier: if I heard either French
"Juliet" or "juillet' I would hear that it started with J, which is
what's important in the case at hand.

[Silvano]

Bebercito hat am 25.03.2022 um 18:59 geschrieben:

>
> But Wiki says that even NATO has now adopted the "Alfa" spelling:

May I point out that the writing f or ph is utterly irrelevant when you
say the letters loud?
My foreign name in German: Samuel Ida Ludwig Viktor Anton Nordpol Otto.

[J. J. Lodder]

The one and only true Sierra Nevada
is a lot closer to Athel than to you,

Jan

[Richard Heathfield]

On 25/03/2022 8:39 pm, Silvano wrote:
> Bebercito hat am 25.03.2022 um 18:59 geschrieben:
>>
>> But Wiki says that even NATO has now adopted the "Alfa" spelling:
>
> May I point out that the writing f or ph is utterly irrelevant when you
> say the letters loud?

I would also add that in the current case the NATO stance is irrelevant
because I am not NATO.

In English, we spell ἄλφα as "alpha" with a "ph", not an "f", whether or
not NATO agrees, whether or not Bebercito agrees,. and whether or not P
T Daniels agrees.

[occam]

He he! Typical alphabet (note: NOT alfabet) designed by an international
committee of well-meaning morons.

I am guessing there were no Spaniards on this committee (Bictor, Brabo,
Khuliett). Nor any Japanese (Rima, Lomeo, Kiro)

Is not the best word for Y 'Yahoo' these days? (Give those Yanks a break!)

How about Oskar, rather than Oscar? Eko, instead of Echo? And so on.

I am sorry, the excuse given ( "because this would often be
mispronounced by native speakers of some other languages") holds no
water whatsoever.

[Bebercito]

If you heard them distinctly, that is - but the very point of the
alphabet is to provide unmistakable reference words in case
of indistinct hearing - and Juliett (with a final t in French) could
obviously be more easily recognized than Juliet (with a final [ε],
or AY, in French).

[musika]

Most people over 30 would remember the Ford Sierra.

--
Ray
UK

[J. J. Lodder]

Well, perhaps, but the point of the designers was that there are
languages in which some words which the letter combination ph
may sometimes be hyphenated (and pronounced as ...p-h...)

Jan

--
Tussen Schifol en Ofeusden
was een plek waar ik graag neusde
't was goed vissen bij de ofaalbrug
met m'n werfengel; ik kwam steeds terug
en de dofeide ofemelend die daar groeide
merkte ik dat 't stekje ieder boeide.

Maar toen ik laatst weer op kwam draven
had men de brug verwerkt tot klein kafout
men had zich bovendien brutaal verstout
het schoon dofei te scheren met een filishave!
(Battus, in Opperlandse Taal- en Letterkunde)

[Richard Heathfield]

I don't, really. I remember the *name*. But it was not a memorable car.
I cannot picture one in my mind's eye.

<Web image rummage>

Okay, so I've just seen a few dozen, but none of them said "Si-/err/-a";
none of them oozed its identity at me the way a Ford Capri would have
done, or a Land Rover, or a Triumph, or a Beetle, or even a 2CV or Robin.

One sentence later, I've already forgotten what the Sierra looks like.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 4:57:40 PM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 8:39 pm, Silvano wrote:
> > Bebercito hat am 25.03.2022 um 18:59 geschrieben:

> >> But Wiki says that even NATO has now adopted the "Alfa" spelling:
> > May I point out that the writing f or ph is utterly irrelevant when you
> > say the letters loud?
>
> I would also add that in the current case the NATO stance is irrelevant
> because I am not NATO.
>
> In English, we spell ἄλφα as "alpha" with a "ph", not an "f", whether or
> not NATO agrees, whether or not Bebercito agrees,. and whether or not P
> T Daniels agrees.

Then you won't mind when official documents appear with your
name as Heathfeld.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Not in this country, we wouldn't.

The Olds Cutlass Ciera was made in the 80s and 90s. (GM.)

[Bebercito]

Funnily, the "verlan" for "Ciera" is "acier" (steel), which is what
the car is made of.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I'd forgotten about that, but you're right. When I visited Granada as a
lad we made a day trip there, and walked part of the way up Mulhacén.
That was the day when I realized that a hot sunny day at high altitude
was dangerous for the skin.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

All the more reason for not using Ciera as a code for S.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2022-03-25 21:55:15 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>
>> Bebercito hat am 25.03.2022 um 18:59 geschrieben:
>>>
>>> But Wiki says that even NATO has now adopted the "Alfa" spelling:
>>
>> May I point out that the writing f or ph is utterly irrelevant when you
>> say the letters loud?
>> My foreign name in German: Samuel Ida Ludwig Viktor Anton Nordpol Otto.
>
> Well, perhaps, but the point of the designers was that there are
> languages in which some words which the letter combination ph
> may sometimes be hyphenated (and pronounced as ...p-h...)

It might be logical if we wrote up-hill rather than uphill, but in my
experience we don't, and we don't say it with [f] in it.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Fri, 25 Mar 2022 23:58:37 -0700 (PDT): Bebercito <bebe...@aol.com>
scribeva:

Stromae!
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

[J. J. Lodder]

occam <nob...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

> On 25/03/2022 08:13, Bebercito wrote:

[-]

> > ---
> > A - Alfa
> > B - Bravo
> > C - Charlie
> > D - Delta
> > E - Echo
> > F - Foxtrot
> > G - Golf
> > H - Hotel
> > I - India
> > J - Juliett
> > K - Kilo
> > L - Lima

> > M - Mike?
> > ?N - November

> > O - Oscar
> > P - Papa
> > Q - Quebec
> > R - Romeo
> > S - Sierra
> > T - Tango
> > U - Uniform
> > V - Victor
> > W - Whiskey
> > X - X-ray
> > Y - Yankee
> > Z - Zulu
> >
> > https://www.icao.int/Pages/AlphabetRadiotelephony.aspx
> > ---
> >
>
> He he! Typical alphabet (note: NOT alfabet) designed by an international
> committee of well-meaning morons.

Yes, complete morons, obviously.
They (falsely of course) pretended to have done 'scientific' testing.
Just imagine.

> I am guessing there were no Spaniards on this committee (Bictor, Brabo,
> Khuliett). Nor any Japanese (Rima, Lomeo, Kiro)

Spaniards wrong, Japanese right, afaik.

> Is not the best word for Y 'Yahoo' these days? (Give those Yanks a break!)

Why would they need to have one? Once a Yank always a Yank.
AFAIK they are proud of it, doubly so if upgraded to Damnyank.

But they rightly claimed that you cannot change single words.
Change one, and you will have to rethink and retest the whole alphabeth.

> How about Oskar, rather than Oscar? Eko, instead of Echo? And so on.
>
> I am sorry, the excuse given ( "because this would often be
> mispronounced by native speakers of some other languages") holds no
> water whatsoever.

You might say Ossar?

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Yes, but the idea that you can really do a spelling reform
is completely foreigh to British thinking.

The Dutch do, and decided long ago to replace all
greek-derived ph-s with f-s. (fotografie, etc.)

For once they did it right, no exceptions,
except proper names like Philippus of Macedonia.
(unlike the c->k muddle)

Even if done right, one may wonder what the point of it all was.
It is easier for the kidddies when learning to spell,
but afterwards it is harder when they have to learn English,

Jan

--
PS I hope I haven't misled anyone into pronouncing Schiphol as Schifol.

[Peter Moylan]

On 25/03/22 09:25, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 4:14:00 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>> One NPR radio host only goes by "A" as a first name.
>>
>> That made another journalist sound unexpectedly Canadian the other
>> day, when she said "Thanks, A".

>
> "How do you spell Canada?"
>

> By the way, I've noticed a distressing tendency to spell "eh" as "ay"
> or "aye".

"Ay" is a good transcription for Australian speakers who speak that way.
It rhymes with "hay". For me "eh" has the "egg" vowel.

"Aye" would be wrong for both Australian and Canadian, because almost
everyone pronounces that to rhyme with "eye".

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[J. J. Lodder]

Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 00:13:46 -0700 (PDT), Bebercito
> <bebe...@aol.com> wrote:
>

> >Le vendredi 25 mars 2022 à 02:56:35 UTC+1, Richard Heathfield a écrit :
> >> On 25/03/2022 12:23 am, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> > On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:22:01 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> > <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> >

> >> >> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 6:31:26 PM UTC-4, Richard Heathfield:

> >> >>> On 24/03/2022 10:25 pm, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> >>

> >> >>>> "How do you spell Canada?"
> >> >>>

> >> >>> Personally, I spell it Charlie Alpha November Alpha Delta Alpha, but I
> >> >>> used to pronounce it 'Canadia' (I have no idea why).
> >> >>

> >> >> Whereas people who knew what they were talking about would
> >> >> spell it Alfa.
> >> >

> >> > I guess we have to exclude NATO from those who know what they're
> >> > talking about:
> >> >
> >> > https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nbbRceKGTZQ/maxresdefault.jpg
> >> He really is an ass, isn't, he? Even ATIS (an ANSI-accredited standards
> >> organisation based in DC) say in
> >> https://glossary.atis.org/glossary/phonetic-alphabet/ as follows:
> >>
> >> A list of standard words used to identify letters in a message
> >> transmitted by radio or telephone. The following are the authorized

> >> words, listed in order, for each letter in the alphabet: Alpha, Bravo,
> >> Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India, Juliet, Kilo, Lima,

> >> Mike, November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec, Romeo, Sierra, Tango, Uniform,
> >> Victor, Whiskey, X-ray, Yankee, Zulu.
> >

> >PTD seems to be right, as explained here:

> >---
> >(...)

> >In particular, the spelling of "alfa" is not the conventional English

> >spelling "alpha" because this would often be mispronounced by native

> >speakers of some other languages, not knowing that "ph" should be spoken
> >as "f". Instead, "alfa" is spelled with an "f" as it is in most European
> >languages.
> >
> >In the same way, notice that "Juliett" is spelled with a "tt", as
> >otherwise some speakers treated a single final "t" as silent.
>
> Why should whether the final t is silent matter? The purpose of these
> words is to identify the letter, and only the first letter of the word
> should matter.

The point is that you should get it right even over noise channels
with perhaps a lot of static too.
It is the perception of the whole of the word that matters.
You should not forget that nobody uses Alfa, Bravo,... spontaneously.
Radio operators have to learn it by heart, and are trained in using it.

It is obviouslt a good idea to train pilots etc, into pronouncing
Juliett with a distinct t-sound at the end,
no matter what their native language may be.

Jan

[Peter Moylan]

On 26/03/22 07:25, Ken Blake wrote:

> Oy vey, I'll repeat what I said earlier: if I heard either French
> "Juliet" or "juillet' I would hear that it started with J, which is
> what's important in the case at hand.

Have you listened to pilot-to-control messages? The signal-to-noise
ratio is often terrible. And the consonants are probably the first to go
lost.

The whole point of these codes is that they should not be ambiguous
under poor signal conditions. For that you have to hear the entire word,
not just the (possibly inaudible) initial consonant.

If you heard "we-ay", would you be able to guess that it was the French
word that starts with a "zh" consonant? What if you did hear the "zh"
clearly? Would you conclude that that was the code for Z?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2022-03-26 09:46:13 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-03-25 21:55:15 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>>
>>> Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bebercito hat am 25.03.2022 um 18:59 geschrieben:
>>>>>
>>>>> But Wiki says that even NATO has now adopted the "Alfa" spelling:
>>>>
>>>> May I point out that the writing f or ph is utterly irrelevant when you
>>>> say the letters loud?
>>>> My foreign name in German: Samuel Ida Ludwig Viktor Anton Nordpol Otto.
>>>
>>> Well, perhaps, but the point of the designers was that there are
>>> languages in which some words which the letter combination ph
>>> may sometimes be hyphenated (and pronounced as ...p-h...)
>>
>> It might be logical if we wrote up-hill rather than uphill, but in my
>> experience we don't, and we don't say it with [f] in it.
>
> Yes, but the idea that you can really do a spelling reform
> is completely foreigh to British thinking.
>
> The Dutch do, and decided long ago to replace all
> greek-derived ph-s with f-s. (fotografie, etc.)

As they do in Spanish: fotografía etc.

>
> For once they did it right, no exceptions,
> except proper names like Philippus of Macedonia.
> (unlike the c->k muddle)
>
> Even if done right, one may wonder what the point of it all was.
> It is easier for the kidddies when learning to spell,
> but afterwards it is harder when they have to learn English,
>
> Jan


--

[J. J. Lodder]

English doesn't have a good word for German 'gestalt', afaik.
Yet that is what is needed here.
Trained radio operators don't hear the word as spelled in letters,
they recognise the whole word as a single pattern,
and translate automatically to the right letter.

Like classical music lovers for example,
who will recognise the musical phrase Dah Dah Dah Daaah
as the beginning of that Beethoven symphony,
even if badly out of tune, or on unsual instruments.

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> On 2022-03-26 09:46:13 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2022-03-25 21:55:15 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >>
> >>> Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Bebercito hat am 25.03.2022 um 18:59 geschrieben:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But Wiki says that even NATO has now adopted the "Alfa" spelling:
> >>>>
> >>>> May I point out that the writing f or ph is utterly irrelevant when you
> >>>> say the letters loud?
> >>>> My foreign name in German: Samuel Ida Ludwig Viktor Anton Nordpol Otto.
> >>>
> >>> Well, perhaps, but the point of the designers was that there are
> >>> languages in which some words which the letter combination ph
> >>> may sometimes be hyphenated (and pronounced as ...p-h...)
> >>
> >> It might be logical if we wrote up-hill rather than uphill, but in my
> >> experience we don't, and we don't say it with [f] in it.
> >
> > Yes, but the idea that you can really do a spelling reform
> > is completely foreigh to British thinking.
> >
> > The Dutch do, and decided long ago to replace all
> > greek-derived ph-s with f-s. (fotografie, etc.)
>
> As they do in Spanish: fotografía etc.

And the Spaniards were consequent about it:
they also removed the h from theta derived words.
Dutch didn't, it is still theater, thesaurus, etc.
The reasons for these things are hard to follow,
because not discussed in the open.

There is a suspicion that push by the Belgians is an important reason.
They want Dutch to look as much as possible like German,
and as little as possible like French.
The Dutch drag their feet, and compromise,

Jan

[Janet]

In article <1ppf9mj.b3s0wx1efymf6N%nos...@de-ster.demon.nl>, nospam@de-
ster.demon.nl says...

>
> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> > On 26/03/22 07:25, Ken Blake wrote:
> >
> > > Oy vey, I'll repeat what I said earlier: if I heard either French
> > > "Juliet" or "juillet' I would hear that it started with J, which is
> > > what's important in the case at hand.
> >
> > Have you listened to pilot-to-control messages? The signal-to-noise
> > ratio is often terrible. And the consonants are probably the first to go
> > lost.
> >
> > The whole point of these codes is that they should not be ambiguous
> > under poor signal conditions. For that you have to hear the entire word,
> > not just the (possibly inaudible) initial consonant.
> >
> > If you heard "we-ay", would you be able to guess that it was the French
> > word that starts with a "zh" consonant? What if you did hear the "zh"
> > clearly? Would you conclude that that was the code for Z?
>
> English doesn't have a good word for German 'gestalt', afaik.

That's why Brits have absorbed the German word "gestalt" into the
English language. Just as we have borrowed countless other useful words
from languages all over the world.

Try googling "gestalt therapy".

Janet

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2022-03-26 12:17:41 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-03-26 09:46:13 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>>
>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-03-25 21:55:15 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>>>>
>>>>> Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bebercito hat am 25.03.2022 um 18:59 geschrieben:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But Wiki says that even NATO has now adopted the "Alfa" spelling:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> May I point out that the writing f or ph is utterly irrelevant when you
>>>>>> say the letters loud?
>>>>>> My foreign name in German: Samuel Ida Ludwig Viktor Anton Nordpol Otto.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, perhaps, but the point of the designers was that there are
>>>>> languages in which some words which the letter combination ph
>>>>> may sometimes be hyphenated (and pronounced as ...p-h...)
>>>>
>>>> It might be logical if we wrote up-hill rather than uphill, but in my
>>>> experience we don't, and we don't say it with [f] in it.
>>>
>>> Yes, but the idea that you can really do a spelling reform
>>> is completely foreigh to British thinking.
>>>
>>> The Dutch do, and decided long ago to replace all
>>> greek-derived ph-s with f-s. (fotografie, etc.)
>>
>> As they do in Spanish: fotografía etc.
>
> And the Spaniards were consequent about it:

and also they have Felipe de Macedonia

> they also removed the h from theta derived words.
> Dutch didn't, it is still theater, thesaurus, etc.
> The reasons for these things are hard to follow,
> because not discussed in the open.
>
> There is a suspicion that push by the Belgians is an important reason.
> They want Dutch to look as much as possible like German,
> and as little as possible like French.
> The Dutch drag their feet, and compromise,
>
> Jan

[Janet]

In article <aa72a215-fcd8-48e4...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...

Relax. In Britland we know you lot don't speak British English.
We've let you off because you can't help it.


Janet

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

>> M - Mike?
>> ?N - November

>> O - Oscar
>> P - Papa
>> Q - Quebec
>> R - Romeo
>> S - Sierra
>> T - Tango
>> U - Uniform
>> V - Victor
>> W - Whiskey
>> X - X-ray
>> Y - Yankee
>> Z - Zulu
>>
>> https://www.icao.int/Pages/AlphabetRadiotelephony.aspx
>> ---
>>
>
>He he! Typical alphabet (note: NOT alfabet) designed by an international
>committee of well-meaning morons.
>
> I am guessing there were no Spaniards on this committee (Bictor, Brabo,
>Khuliett). Nor any Japanese (Rima, Lomeo, Kiro)

There is considerable information on this website:
(Extract)
https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet#History

The final choice {by the ICAO] of code words for the letters of the
alphabet and for the digits was made after hundreds of thousands of
comprehension tests involving 31 nationalities. The qualifying
feature was the likelihood of a code word being understood in the
context of others. For example, football has a higher chance of
being understood than foxtrot in isolation, but foxtrot is superior
in extended communication.[8]

The pronunciation of the code words varies according to the language
habits of the speaker. To eliminate wide variations in
pronunciation, recordings and posters illustrating the pronunciation
desired by the ICAO are available.[8][9] However, there are still
differences in pronunciation between the ICAO and other agencies,
and the ICAO has conflicting Roman-alphabet and IPA transcriptions.
Also, although all codes for the letters of the alphabet are English
words, they are not in general given English pronunciations.
Assuming that the transcriptions are not intended to be precise,
only 11 of the 26 — Bravo, Echo, Hotel, Juliet(t), Kilo, Mike, Papa,
Quebec, Romeo, Whiskey, and Zulu—are given English pronunciations by
all these agencies, though not always the same English
pronunciations.

>
>Is not the best word for Y 'Yahoo' these days? (Give those Yanks a break!)
>
>How about Oskar, rather than Oscar? Eko, instead of Echo? And so on.
>
>I am sorry, the excuse given ( "because this would often be
>mispronounced by native speakers of some other languages") holds no
>water whatsoever.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter T. Daniels]

What does a car's marque have to do with dialects of English?

Ford either decided to create a model specifically for Britland
(since they had to put the steering wheel on the wrong side
anyway). or else rebranded a model that was sold here under
a different name.

As you snipped, the main rival car manufacturer had named
a car the Ciera.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 8:17:46 AM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> > On 2022-03-26 09:46:13 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> > > The Dutch do, and decided long ago to replace all
> > > greek-derived ph-s with f-s. (fotografie, etc.)
> > As they do in Spanish: fotografía etc.
>
> And the Spaniards were consequent about it:

consistent

One of the very worst faux amis.

"Consequent" means 'resulting, a consequence'.

"Consistent" means 'thoroughgoing', what you describe here.

[J. J. Lodder]

Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> On 2022-03-26 12:17:41 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2022-03-26 09:46:13 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >>
> >>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 2022-03-25 21:55:15 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Bebercito hat am 25.03.2022 um 18:59 geschrieben:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But Wiki says that even NATO has now adopted the "Alfa" spelling:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> May I point out that the writing f or ph is utterly irrelevant when you
> >>>>>> say the letters loud?
> >>>>>> My foreign name in German: Samuel Ida Ludwig Viktor Anton Nordpol Otto.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Well, perhaps, but the point of the designers was that there are
> >>>>> languages in which some words which the letter combination ph
> >>>>> may sometimes be hyphenated (and pronounced as ...p-h...)
> >>>>
> >>>> It might be logical if we wrote up-hill rather than uphill, but in my
> >>>> experience we don't, and we don't say it with [f] in it.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, but the idea that you can really do a spelling reform
> >>> is completely foreigh to British thinking.
> >>>
> >>> The Dutch do, and decided long ago to replace all
> >>> greek-derived ph-s with f-s. (fotografie, etc.)
> >>
> >> As they do in Spanish: fotografía etc.
> >
> > And the Spaniards were consequent about it:
>
> and also they have Felipe de Macedonia

Yes, that exception in Dutch for names does not really work,
except of course for Philips.
FYA: I do find a few hits or a Philips Filishave,
(Brazilian)

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 8:17:46 AM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> > > On 2022-03-26 09:46:13 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
> > > > The Dutch do, and decided long ago to replace all
> > > > greek-derived ph-s with f-s. (fotografie, etc.)
> > > As they do in Spanish: fotografía etc.
> >
> > And the Spaniards were consequent about it:
>
> consistent
>
> One of the very worst faux amis.
>
> "Consequent" means 'resulting, a consequence'.
>
> "Consistent" means 'thoroughgoing', what you describe here.

Yes, thanks,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Certainly, I am well aware of that.
It is the 'gestalt' by itself that you almost completely lack,

Jan

[Ken Blake]

On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 21:16:34 +1100, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 26/03/22 07:25, Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> Oy vey, I'll repeat what I said earlier: if I heard either French
>> "Juliet" or "juillet' I would hear that it started with J, which is
>> what's important in the case at hand.
>
>Have you listened to pilot-to-control messages?

Nope.

>The signal-to-noise
>ratio is often terrible. And the consonants are probably the first to go
>lost.
>
>The whole point of these codes is that they should not be ambiguous
>under poor signal conditions. For that you have to hear the entire word,
>not just the (possibly inaudible) initial consonant.
>
>If you heard "we-ay", would you be able to guess that it was the French
>word that starts with a "zh" consonant? What if you did hear the "zh"
>clearly? Would you conclude that that was the code for Z?

OK, I guess I was wrong. I'll withdraw my comment.

--
The real, original Ken Blake, not some other newcomer

[Ken Blake]

Same in AmE.

[Bebercito]

Hmmm, "holism" is very close.

>
> Jan

[Bebercito]

And there's the rub.

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

It was one of many models developed by Ford Europe (headquartered in
Germany.) Sold in North America as "Merkur XR4Ti" for a few years.

Nearly every Ford model we used to see in Germany, and I assume also in
Britain, was a Ford Europe model (like the Escort and Fiesta, but even
the Transit van), designed and built in Europe and not particularly
perceived as an American car. There was more global convergence starting
in the 2000s, I believe. The "Mondeo" had this aim in the name.

--
T: And what does he learn taking the bus?
A: That money is not everything.
T: Ah. And you believe that?
A: Of course not, but that is what we teach him.
-- Parents discussing their son, Bob hearts Abishola, S03E10

[Quinn C]

* J. J. Lodder:

This particular case is one for gestalt perception.

> Certainly, I am well aware of that.
> It is the 'gestalt' by itself that you almost completely lack,

Not my experience. I've seen it on its own in various texts. Mostly
pretty intellectual, of course - that may be a difference to its use in
German, where "Gestalt" would be an obvious translation to use in "I'm
in love with the shape of you".

--
I try not to dwell on what's right and what's wrong.
It slows my processors.
-- Rommie (Andromeda ship AI)

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-03-26 02:13, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> On 2022-03-26 06:58:37 +0000, Bebercito said:
>
>> Le samedi 26 mars 2022 à 02:50:59 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels a écrit
>> :

>>> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 5:40:25 PM UTC-4, musika wrote:> >
>>> On 25/03/2022 19:29, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:> > > On
>>> 2022-03-25 17:59:34 +0000, Bebercito said:>> > >>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet> > >
>>> "Sierra" seems an odd choice, suggesting that the system was
>>> invented> > > with use by Americans primarily in mind. I think
>>> probably most Americans> > > from the western half of the USA
>>> know what a sierra is, but only a small> > > minority of speakers
>>> of British English would have any idea.> >> > Most people over 30
>>> would remember the Ford Sierra. Not in this country, we

>>> wouldn't.>> The Olds Cutlass Ciera was made in the 80s and 90s.

>>> (GM.)
>>
>> Funnily, the "verlan" for "Ciera" is "acier" (steel), which is
>> what the car is made of.
>

> All the more reason for not using Ciera as a code for S.

I used to hang around AVSIG on Compuserve, and one of the ongoing gags
was to invent a new phonetic alphabet...
Here's one (not from back then).

Aeonphile
Bob
Czar
Djinn
Eight
For
Gnostic
Hour
Iran
Jicima
Know
Lilliput
Mayday
Nine
One
Pfennig
Qatar
Rhododendron
Sixteen
Too
Unit
Vacation
Wrapping
Xerox
You
Zoom

[lar3ryca]

That's it in a nutshell. Pilot training.
Doesn't matter how they are spelled, as long as the can say them properly.

[Peter Moylan]

On 26/03/22 23:05, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> Like classical music lovers for example, who will recognise the
> musical phrase Dah Dah Dah Daaah as the beginning of that Beethoven
> symphony, even if badly out of tune, or on unsual instruments.

A few years ago we had a garbage disposal company whose trucks had,
written on the side, "to the dump, to the dump, to the dump dump dump".

You don't even have to be a classical music lover to recognise the Lone
Ranger Overture.

[Sam Plusnet]

Quote:

"The FAA (Federal Aviation Authority) and ICAO (International Civil
Aviation Organization), the world's organization overseeing aviation,
require all pilots flying under their organizations to have attained
ICAO “Level 4” English ability. This means all pilots must speak, read,
write, and understand English fluently."

I take that to mean they can (at the very least) handle the standard
phonetic alphabet (alfabet?) without difficulty.


--
Sam Plusnet

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-03-26 18:22, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 26/03/22 23:05, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
>> Like classical music lovers for example, who will recognise the
>> musical phrase Dah Dah Dah Daaah as the beginning of that Beethoven
>> symphony, even if badly out of tune, or on unsual instruments.
>
> A few years ago we had a garbage disposal company whose trucks had,
> written on the side, "to the dump, to the dump, to the dump dump dump".
>
> You don't even have to be a classical music lover to recognise the Lone
> Ranger Overture.

egghead n: a person who can listen to the William Tell Overture without
thinking of the Lone Ranger.

[occam]

Thank you for that link Peter D. I was not aware of the existence of
'military Wiki'.

>
> The final choice {by the ICAO] of code words for the letters of the
> alphabet and for the digits was made after hundreds of thousands of
> comprehension tests involving 31 nationalities. The qualifying
> feature was the likelihood of a code word being understood in the
> context of others. For example, football has a higher chance of
> being understood than foxtrot in isolation, but foxtrot is superior
> in extended communication.[8]

The reference [8] mentioned in that last sentence (foxtrot vs football)
dates back to a document published in 1955 ("Pamphlet included in the
1955 ICAO phonograph recording"). It that does not smack of an outdated
old fogey who is preoccupied with the Foxtrot - a dance for people
wearing monocles and smoking jackets - I don't know what does.

>
> The pronunciation of the code words varies according to the language
> habits of the speaker.

Although the speaker in question here is undoubtedly a speaker of
English (stiff upper-lip and all that). The rest of the mumbo-jumbo is
just rationalisation.

[CDB]

On 3/26/2022 8:22 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> J. J. Lodder wrote:

>> Like classical music lovers for example, who will recognise the
>> musical phrase Dah Dah Dah Daaah as the beginning of that
>> Beethoven symphony, even if badly out of tune, or on unsual
>> instruments.

> A few years ago we had a garbage disposal company whose trucks had,
> written on the side, "to the dump, to the dump, to the dump dump
> dump".

> You don't even have to be a classical music lover to recognise the
> Lone Ranger Overture.

Do tell.

[CDB]

On 3/27/2022 3:10 AM, occam wrote:
> Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>> occam <nob...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

[rebus alphabets]

>> There is considerable information on this website: (Extract)
>> https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet#History

>
>>
Thank you for that link Peter D. I was not aware of the existence of
> 'military Wiki'.

>> The final choice {by the ICAO] of code words for the letters of
>> the alphabet and for the digits was made after hundreds of
>> thousands of comprehension tests involving 31 nationalities. The
>> qualifying feature was the likelihood of a code word being
>> understood in the context of others. For example, football has a
>> higher chance of being understood than foxtrot in isolation, but
>> foxtrot is superior in extended communication.[8]

> The reference [8] mentioned in that last sentence (foxtrot vs
> football) dates back to a document published in 1955 ("Pamphlet
> included in the 1955 ICAO phonograph recording"). It that does not
> smack of an outdated old fogey who is preoccupied with the Foxtrot -
> a dance for people wearing monocles and smoking jackets - I don't
> know what does.

I was thinking porkpie hats and garter-belts.

>> The pronunciation of the code words varies according to the
>> language habits of the speaker.

> Although the speaker in question here is undoubtedly a speaker of
> English (stiff upper-lip and all that). The rest of the mumbo-jumbo
> is just rationalisation.

[mumbo-jumbo]

Contrary to tourist belief, "jambo" does not mean "hi" in Swahili. It
means "trouble", perhaps as when applied to that elephant; you say "hi"
to a Kenyan with "hujambo" (Do you have any trouble?") and ey replies
politely with "sijambo" ("I have no trouble."). Kind of like "How do
you do?"

[Peter T. Daniels]

It doesn't say they must achieve the impossible goal of losing
their "foreign accent" and being able to make every phonemic
distinction used in the language. English has a large number
of vowels and at least two consonants that are quite rare around
the world, as well as a couple of phonemes that in many languages
are not distinguished from each other.

[S K]

linguishit misses the point completely.

the multitude of vowels (there are now devanagari reprsentations of all of them), the interdentals, allophonic aspiration, the v-w distinction can all be mastered.

the accent (insight versus incite) and the ubiquitous schwa is what makes approximating natives next to impossible for non-natives.

[Quinn C]

* lar3ryca:

I think the time of that adage is over, though. One could simply be too
young, no?

--
Sure, everybody has the right to speak their opinion; but not
the right to identify this opinion as truth, and erect pyres
for dissenters.
-- Hedwig Dohm (1903), my translation

[Ken Blake]

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 11:22:56 +1100, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 26/03/22 23:05, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
>> Like classical music lovers for example, who will recognise the
>> musical phrase Dah Dah Dah Daaah as the beginning of that Beethoven
>> symphony, even if badly out of tune, or on unsual instruments.
>
>A few years ago we had a garbage disposal company whose trucks had,
>written on the side, "to the dump, to the dump, to the dump dump dump".
>
>You don't even have to be a classical music lover to recognise the Lone
>Ranger Overture.

or "Rump, titty, rump, titty, rump, rump, rump.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, March 27, 2022 at 11:38:49 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * lar3ryca:
> > On 2022-03-26 18:22, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> On 26/03/22 23:05, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> >>> Like classical music lovers for example, who will recognise the
> >>> musical phrase Dah Dah Dah Daaah as the beginning of that Beethoven
> >>> symphony, even if badly out of tune, or on unsual instruments.
> >> A few years ago we had a garbage disposal company whose trucks had,
> >> written on the side, "to the dump, to the dump, to the dump dump dump".
> >> You don't even have to be a classical music lover to recognise the Lone
> >> Ranger Overture.
> > egghead n: a person who can listen to the William Tell Overture without
> > thinking of the Lone Ranger.
>
> I think the time of that adage is over, though. One could simply be too
> young, no?

There is currently a horrible commercial for Infiniti (a luxury car)
featuring an orchestra of children trying to play the opening fanfare
from Also Sprach Zarathustra by R. Strauss. Unfortunately it's a
successful commercial, because after only four exposures I know
what it is advertising.

The work would now be known as the "2001 Overture."

Fortunately for Infiniti, I'm not in the market for a luxury car,
for I would hie in any other direction.

[lar3ryca]

Or, as we used to sing it,

'Titty bum titty bum titty bum bum bum'.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Or as I learnt it "Titty bum titty bum titty bum bum bum".
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Ha. Preplagiarized again.

[Peter Moylan]

Or, for those more visually oriented,

οοωοοωοοωωω

[Mack A. Damia]

Phonetically, what does the Lone Ranger have in common with the
Russian Revolution?

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 1:19:29 AM UTC-7, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2022-03-25 21:55:15 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
> > Silvano <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
> >
> >> Bebercito hat am 25.03.2022 um 18:59 geschrieben:
> >>>
> >>> But Wiki says that even NATO has now adopted the "Alfa" spelling:
> >>
> >> May I point out that the writing f or ph is utterly irrelevant when you
> >> say the letters loud?
> >> My foreign name in German: Samuel Ida Ludwig Viktor Anton Nordpol Otto.
> >
> > Well, perhaps, but the point of the designers was that there are
> > languages in which some words which the letter combination ph
> > may sometimes be hyphenated (and pronounced as ...p-h...)
> It might be logical if we wrote up-hill rather than uphill, but in my
> experience we don't, and we don't say it with [f] in it.

I have no evidence at hand, but I suspect that compound words such as
uphill start life as two separate words which go through a period of hyphenation
and, if it seems like a good fit, opt for a permanent union.

bill, both ways

[Mack A. Damia]

Come on! You need to read more.

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 27-03-2022 kl. 17:38 skrev Quinn C:
> * lar3ryca:
>
>> On 2022-03-26 18:22, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 26/03/22 23:05, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>
>>>> Like classical music lovers for example, who will recognise the
>>>> musical phrase Dah Dah Dah Daaah as the beginning of that Beethoven
>>>> symphony, even if badly out of tune, or on unsual instruments.
>>>
>>> A few years ago we had a garbage disposal company whose trucks had,
>>> written on the side, "to the dump, to the dump, to the dump dump dump".
>>>
>>> You don't even have to be a classical music lover to recognise the Lone
>>> Ranger Overture.
>>
>> egghead n: a person who can listen to the William Tell Overture without
>> thinking of the Lone Ranger.
>
> I think the time of that adage is over, though. One could simply be too
> young, no?

Or never have been exposed to the Lone Ranger. Yes, we do exist.

/Anders, Denmark

[Ken Blake]

So you don't even know who that masked man was?

[Silvano]

Ken Blake hat am 28.03.2022 um 20:16 geschrieben:

> So you don't even know who that masked man was?

Zorro! :-)

[Mack A. Damia]

On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 09:47:45 -0700, Mack A. Damia

READ more?

John Reid was the Lone Ranger. John Reed was a journalist who
chronicled the Russian Revolution.

[Madhu]

* Mack A. Damia <ekp34hpf1pft9j745ficgquas29bd2423f @4ax.com> :
Wrote on Mon, 28 Mar 2022 09:47:45 -0700:

ok. I give up. what.

[Mack A. Damia]

Pretty good riddle, eh?

Nobody was biting. That's why I gave the answer.

[Mack A. Damia]

It would make a good Times crossword puzzle clue.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:05:54 -0700, Mack A. Damia

Oops! The different spellings would present a problem.

[lar3ryca]

No problem. Because "phonetically".

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Only in very vague terms. He keeps turning up here, for instance.
I don't recall any prior reference to the theme music, though.

/Anders, Denmark

[Mack A. Damia]

But what would be the clue? My original question, right?

What would be the answer?

R
REED
I
D
(Can't do it in one question for a crossword puzzle)

It needs to be an oral quiz.

[lar3ryca]

I'm unfamiliar with Times crossword puzzles, but some crossword puzzles
allow a clue to reference another clue.

2 Across: The Russian Revolution, phonetically in common with 3 Down

3 Down: The Lone Ranger, phonetically in common with 2 Across.


Though I can't think of a better way to phrase that one.

[Mack A. Damia]

Yes, good one!