Pronunciation of the name Antoinette
O(rdblid)
syllable stressed. The name was mentioned four times by the the same
British English person, all of the them in the same way.
This puzzled me - I would have thought that the last syllable would be
stressed (but, hey, I'm Danish - so what do I know ...)
Any comments?
--
so
Jeffrey Turner
I stress the first sylLAble.
--Jeff
--
The shepherd always tries to persuade
the sheep that their interests and
his own are the same. --Stendhal
Prai Jei
<4499A1E6...@mail.dk>:
I would divide the stress equally between the first and last syllables,
after the example of the song about the wreck thereof. (Remember DDDBM&T?)
--
Warning: keel away from child for hot bulb
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Stephen Calder
I stress the last syllable.
--
Stephen
Lennox Head, Australia
Gene E. Bloch
news:4499A1E6...@mail.dk:
Primary stress on nette, secondary stress on An, but toi (twa) is not
completely unstressed - in my speech. E.g., if it was Antonette (no i =
no wa) the second syllable would be a weak schwa.
''an '''toi 'net
--
Gene E. Bloch (Gino) ... letters617blochg3251
(replace the numbers by "at" and "dotcom")
Donna Richoux
I think we could collectively list at least ten words borrowed from
French where the British accent the first syllable and the Americans
accent the last. Some doctoral student probably wrote a paper on this
phenomenon.
(The French place stress according to phrases, not single words.)
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Lars Eighner
<Xns97E9A508D...@127.0.0.1>,
the lovely and talented Gene E. Bloch
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> "O(rdblid)" <olse...@mail.dk> wrote in
> news:4499A1E6...@mail.dk:
>> In a podcast from BBC the name Antoinette was pronounced with the
>> first syllable stressed. The name was mentioned four times by the
>> the same British English person, all of the them in the same way.
>>
>> This puzzled me - I would have thought that the last syllable
>> would be stressed (but, hey, I'm Danish - so what do I know ...)
>>
>> Any comments?
>>
>> --
>> so
>
> Primary stress on nette, secondary stress on An, but toi (twa) is not
> completely unstressed - in my speech. E.g., if it was Antonette (no i =
> no wa) the second syllable would be a weak schwa.
> ''an '''toi 'net
This is how it is in the Moby files and in the lastest version of the
Carnegie Mellon speech dictionary - which I have on hand because I am
computing away slowly on a metric dictionairy.
--
Lars Eighner http://larseighner.com/ http://myspace.com/larseighner
Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got. --Janis Joplin
Robert Bannister
All the Antoinettes I have known (all 3 of them) stressed the 1st and
3rd syllables more or less equally. One pronounces it "Antonette", but
she's Greek and maybe that's her real name.
--
Rob Bannister
Steve Hayes
I stress both, but with the primary stress on the last syllable.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
mb
Donna Richoux wrote:
...
> I think we could collectively list at least ten words borrowed from
> French where the British accent the first syllable and the Americans
> accent the last. Some doctoral student probably wrote a paper on this
> phenomenon.
>
> (The French place stress according to phrases, not single words.)
Not a PhD paper, but an off-the-cuff theory: Americans stress the final
V because they have been told that the French stress it on the final,
and the British stress the initial syllable also because they've been
told the French stress the last.
But then, until the "borrowed" word is either kept for good (i.e.
naturalized) or given back, the way the borrower pronounces it may be
irrelevant. Has Antoinette received her citizenship?
Peter Moylan
> O(rdblid) wrote:
>
>> In a podcast from BBC the name Antoinette was pronounced with the
>> first syllable stressed. The name was mentioned four times by the
>> the same British English person, all of the them in the same way.
>>
>> This puzzled me - I would have thought that the last syllable would
>> be stressed (but, hey, I'm Danish - so what do I know ...)
>
I don't even pronounce the last one, but I put roughly equal stress on
the other three.
Antoinette, je te plumerai.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
reliably receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses.
The optusnet address still has about 2 months of life left.
J. J. Lodder
Why do you think the English and the French
should have similar pronunciations?
Jan
Steffen Buehler
> O(rdblid) (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
>> In a podcast from BBC the name Antoinette was pronounced with the
>> first syllable stressed. The name was mentioned four times by the
>> the same British English person, all of the them in the same way.
> I would divide the stress equally between the first and last
> syllables, after the example of the song about the wreck thereof.
> (Remember DDDBM&T?)
Concerning wrecks, I only remember Edmund Fitzgerald (both stresses on
first, though Mr. Lightfoot sings "Fitzgérald").
Anyway, Freddie Mercury rhymed "Marie Antoinette" with "pretty cabinet"
(that's where the Móet et Chándon is kept). Laissez faire.
Adieu
Steffen
Stephen Calder
> Stephen Calder wrote:
>
>> O(rdblid) wrote:
>>
>>> In a podcast from BBC the name Antoinette was pronounced with the
>>> first syllable stressed. The name was mentioned four times by the
>>> the same British English person, all of the them in the same way.
>>>
>>> This puzzled me - I would have thought that the last syllable would
>>> be stressed (but, hey, I'm Danish - so what do I know ...)
>>
>>
>> I stress the last syllable.
>
>
> I don't even pronounce the last one, but I put roughly equal stress on
> the other three.
>
> Antoinette, je te plumerai.
>
As you know I'm only counting three.
T.H. Entity
The standard BrE pronunciation is [,&ntw@'net] -- i.e. *an*-twuh-NET,
where the main stress is on "net" and a secondary stress is on "an".
--
THE
K. Edgcombe
Donna Richoux <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote:
>> In a podcast from BBC the name Antoinette was pronounced with the first
>> syllable stressed. The name was mentioned four times by the the same
>> British English person, all of the them in the same way.
>
>French where the British accent the first syllable and the Americans
>accent the last.
Maybe, but I don't think this is one of them. I (in the UK) stress the last
syllable (though with a very slight subsidiary stress on the first, I suppose),
and I have very rarely it with the stress on the first syllable.
In fact, (pause to try it out), I don't think I've ever heard it that way.
Katy
SherLok Merfy
(...)
> Carnegie Mellon speech dictionary - which I have on hand because I am
> computing away slowly on a metric dictionairy.
A metric dictionary would be less than 50kbytes.
My dad had a metric handbook, and it was less than fifty payjez.
Hint: Calories are not metric units of heat, even if they're based on
metric units.
The metric unit of heat, and the only one, is the Joule. A watt is one
joule per second,
exactly. It is also one volt-amp, exactly, an amp being one coulomb of
electrons
per second, a Coulomb being Avogadro's number of electrons.
_______
http://www.mynumo.com/SherLok
Wood Avens
Trying it out myself, it strikes me that I don't often say the name on
its own (not that I often have occasion to say it at all): it's more
likely to be combined with "Marie". So my pronounciation of "Marie
Antionette" tends towards "MA-ri-an-toin-ETTE", and I suspect that
affects how I'd pronounce it on its own, if I did.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Ben Rudiak-Gould
> an amp being one coulomb of electrons per second, a Coulomb being
> Avogadro's number of electrons.
An Avogadro's number of electrons has a charge of about 96,000 coulombs. The
coulomb is defined in terms of the ampere, which has a weird definition
involving a force of 2x10^-7 N/m.
-- Ben
Mark Brader
> Trying it out myself, it strikes me that I don't often say the name on
> its own (not that I often have occasion to say it at all): it's more
> likely to be combined with "Marie". So my pronounciation of "Marie
Like "Mary"? Weird. "Ma-REE-an-twahn-ET" for me.
--
Mark Brader | "Now I feel stupid. Well, I guess it's not bad
Toronto | if that happens once a decade or so."
m...@vex.net | --Al Fargnoli
John Dawkins
Steffen Buehler <steffen...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> Anyway, Freddie Mercury rhymed "Marie Antoinette" with "pretty cabinet"
> (that's where the Móet et Chándon is kept). Laissez faire.
The Moët and Chandon, too.
--
J.
Donna Richoux
> Concerning wrecks, I only remember Edmund Fitzgerald (both stresses on
> first, though Mr. Lightfoot sings "Fitzgérald").
If I try to do it the way you say, the "gerald" becomes a low growly
noise. FITZ-jurld? Really?
Wood Avens
>Katy Jennison:
>> Trying it out myself, it strikes me that I don't often say the name on
>> its own (not that I often have occasion to say it at all): it's more
>> likely to be combined with "Marie". So my pronounciation of "Marie
>> Antionette" tends towards "MA-ri-an-toin-ETTE" ...
>
>Like "Mary"? Weird. "Ma-REE-an-twahn-ET" for me.
No, actually -- in this setting, like "marry". An anglicisation, I
suppose.
Wood Avens
<wood...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 19:11:31 -0000, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>
>>Katy Jennison:
>>> Trying it out myself, it strikes me that I don't often say the name on
>>> its own (not that I often have occasion to say it at all): it's more
>>> likely to be combined with "Marie". So my pronounciation of "Marie
>>> Antionette" tends towards "MA-ri-an-toin-ETTE" ...
>>
>>Like "Mary"? Weird. "Ma-REE-an-twahn-ET" for me.
>
>No, actually -- in this setting, like "marry". An anglicisation, I
>suppose.
On second thoughts, more like "Murry" (to rhyme with hurry). Not
Mary, anyway.
Mike Lyle
NTBCW Mary Celeste, despite any similarities.
I once knew an Antoinette. We pronounced it "Annie".
--
Mike.
Salvatore Volatile
> Steffen Buehler <steffen...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>
>> Concerning wrecks, I only remember Edmund Fitzgerald (both stresses on
>
> If I try to do it the way you say, the "gerald" becomes a low growly
> noise. FITZ-jurld? Really?
That's what it'd be in SparkE, no?
--
Salvatore Volatile
Steffen Buehler
> Donna Richoux wrote:
>> Steffen Buehler <steffen...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Concerning wrecks, I only remember Edmund Fitzgerald (both stresses
>>> on first, though Mr. Lightfoot sings "Fitzgérald").
I put the lost é in again. Add apostrophes ad libitum. I always am
confused where to put them to show the stress: before or after.
>> If I try to do it the way you say, the "gerald" becomes a low growly
>> noise. FITZ-jurld? Really?
Really. Contrarywise: I always thought Gordon Lightfoot's pronunciation
was only in order to fit the name into the metrum. Stressing the second
syllable sounds strange to me. Blame it on my German.
> That's what it'd be in SparkE, no?
At least in MyE. None of my dictionaries tells me the "standard" way. Is
there one?
Regards
Steffen
Bob Cunningham
No.
Bob Cunningham
There's no standard way, because English has no standard.
_Webster's New World Dictionary_ says to pronounce
"Fitzgerald" with three syllables, with stress on "ger", and
with the "i" of "fit", the "e" of "get", and the "a" like
the "o" in "bacon".
_Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary_ says the
same. They're the two dictionaries I have that show
pronunciations of proper names.
I've never heard it pronouncied any other way.
R H Draney
>
>> Donna Richoux wrote:
>>> Steffen Buehler <steffen...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Concerning wrecks, I only remember Edmund Fitzgerald (both stresses
>>>> on first, though Mr. Lightfoot sings "Fitzgérald").
>
>>> noise. FITZ-jurld? Really?
>
>Really. Contrarywise: I always thought Gordon Lightfoot's pronunciation
>was only in order to fit the name into the metrum. Stressing the second
>syllable sounds strange to me. Blame it on my German.
Speaking of distorting stress to fit metrical patterns, here's a recording that
also ties in to the discussion of the word "runcible" (pronounced here as
"run'sble") in another thread:
http://members.cox.net/rhdraney/050830_1325.mp3
File is about 2.6MB....r
--
It's the crack on the wall and the stain on the cup that gets to you
in the very end...every cat has its fall when it runs out of luck,
so you can do with a touch of zen...cause when you're screwed,
you're screwed...and when it's blue, it's blue.
Bob Cunningham
<exw...@earthlink.net> said:
[...]
> [about pronouncing "Fitzgerald"]
> _Webster's New World Dictionary_ says to pronounce
> "Fitzgerald" with three syllables, with stress on "ger", and
> with the "i" of "fit", the "e" of "get", and the "a" like
> the "o" in "bacon".
> _Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary_ says the
> same. They're the two dictionaries I have that show
> pronunciations of proper names.
After I said that, it occurred to me that the _11th
Collegiate_ might have pronunciations in its biographical
section. Sure enough, it has, and it shows the same
three-syllable pronunciation for "Fitzgerald" that the two I
mention above show.
Nick Spalding
on 22 Jun 2006 15:49:04 -0700:
I had a cousin Antoinette but only her mother called her that, to everyone
else she was Ann.
--
Nick Spalding
Mike Lyle
That's valuable information: thanks. I've often thought the DNB should
provide a pronunciation key. Not only for obviously tricky "Colquhoun"
names, either: for example, I don't know how I learnt that the composer
Ethel Smyth pronounced her surname with an "eye" vowel and a voiceless
"thin" "th".
--
Mike.
Salvatore Volatile
I had a great-half-aunt Antoinette, but her name was pronounced
/'&nt@,nEt/. Also, she was "Auntie Antoinette", not "Aunt Antoinette".
--
Salvatore Volatile
dcw
Wood Avens <wood...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 23:27:18 +0100, Wood Avens
><wood...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>>On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 19:11:31 -0000, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>>>Katy Jennison:
>>>> Trying it out myself, it strikes me that I don't often say the name on
>>>> its own (not that I often have occasion to say it at all): it's more
>>>> likely to be combined with "Marie". So my pronounciation of "Marie
>>>> Antionette" tends towards "MA-ri-an-toin-ETTE" ...
>>>Like "Mary"? Weird. "Ma-REE-an-twahn-ET" for me.
>>No, actually -- in this setting, like "marry". An anglicisation, I
>>suppose.
>On second thoughts, more like "Murry" (to rhyme with hurry). Not
>Mary, anyway.
To my ear you were right the first time -- it's like "marry".
And there's at least a secondary stress on "an".
David
Salvatore Volatile
I once knew an American who pronounced "Marie Curie" in a way that
sounded to me like "Murray Curry".
--
Salvatore Volatile
Nick Spalding
on Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:12:14 +0000 (UTC):
Neither Aunt nor Auntie were used at all in my family, all aunts and uncles
were known and addressed by name. I gathered from my contemporaries that
this was unusual in my generation, born 1931. The current kids refer to
their parents by name, or worse.
--
Nick Spalding
R H Draney
>
>I once knew an American who pronounced "Marie Curie" in a way that
>sounded to me like "Murray Curry".
Tasmanian actor-comedian Yahoo Serious pronounced it "Mary Curry"...until this
thread, I thought that was part of the joke....r
Daniel al-Autistiqui
<exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:05:19 GMT, Bob Cunningham
><exw...@earthlink.net> said:
>
>[...]
>
>> [about pronouncing "Fitzgerald"]
>
>> _Webster's New World Dictionary_ says to pronounce
>> "Fitzgerald" with three syllables, with stress on "ger", and
>> with the "i" of "fit", the "e" of "get", and the "a" like
>> the "o" in "bacon".
And that's the way I have always pronounced the name of Edward
FitzGerald whenever I've had occasion to say it -- many, many times --
during the past few years. As some of you might recall, he was the
one who translated a collection of Persian poetry known as the
Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (['ru:bI,jAt @v 'oumAr kai'jAm]).
His surname is allegedly supposed to carry an internal capital letter,
as I have written it above, but it appears as a plain "Fitzgerald" in
many books, and I still don't understand why.
daniel mcgrath
"Lo! some we loved, the loveliest and best
"That Time and Fate of all their Vintage prest,
"Have drunk their Cup a Round or two before,
"And one by one crept silently to Rest."
--
Daniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende":
for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com"
Developmentally disabled;
has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder),
Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder,
& periodic bouts of depression.
[This signature is under construction.]
Pat Durkin
"Daniel al-Autistiqui" <gove...@hotmail.invalid> wrote in message
news:jp0o929bbvfkguidl...@4ax.com...
>
>>On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:05:19 GMT, Bob Cunningham
>><exw...@earthlink.net> said:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>> [about pronouncing "Fitzgerald"]
>>
>>> _Webster's New World Dictionary_ says to pronounce
>>> "Fitzgerald" with three syllables, with stress on "ger", and
>>> with the "i" of "fit", the "e" of "get", and the "a" like
>>> the "o" in "bacon".
>
> His surname is allegedly supposed to carry an internal capital letter,
> as I have written it above, but it appears as a plain "Fitzgerald" in
> many books, and I still don't understand why.
>
> daniel mcgrath
> "Lo! some we loved, the loveliest and best
> "That Time and Fate of all their Vintage prest,
> "Have drunk their Cup a Round or two before,
> "And one by one crept silently to Rest."
I think that your description of the pronunciation of Fitzgerald (or
FitzGerald) is quite common--perhaps standard. As for the spelling with
lowercase "g", well, many people don't find it necessary to keep those
oldfashioned spellings, especially if the name's owner isn't around to
defend _his_ choice. Have you seen variations in the capitalization of
various parts of Dutch names? Especially the lower case of the "van" in
vanNess. Or Van Ness. And that town in California--Van Nuys?
I knew a girl named Van Hoof, and then there is some person on a TV news
channel--(I think, or maybe some TV or Hollywood star) surnamed
Vandenheuvel. Or Van Den Heuvel, or some such. Maybe "huevel", though
I don't think so.
Remember that Shakespeare spelled his own name in a number of different
ways, though that was before spelling became such an important part of
literacy.
Bob Cunningham
<gove...@hotmail.invalid> said:
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 09:22:05 GMT, Bob Cunningham
> <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:05:19 GMT, Bob Cunningham
> ><exw...@earthlink.net> said:
> >[...]
> >> [about pronouncing "Fitzgerald"]
> >> _Webster's New World Dictionary_ says to pronounce
> >> "Fitzgerald" with three syllables, with stress on "ger", and
> >> with the "i" of "fit", the "e" of "get", and the "a" like
> >> the "o" in "bacon".
> And that's the way I have always pronounced the name of Edward
> FitzGerald whenever I've had occasion to say it -- many, many times --
> during the past few years. As some of you might recall, he was the
> one who translated a collection of Persian poetry known as the
> Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (['ru:bI,jAt @v 'oumAr kai'jAm]).
> His surname is allegedly supposed to carry an internal capital letter,
> as I have written it above, but it appears as a plain "Fitzgerald" in
> many books, and I still don't understand why.
I've gotten from somewhere the idea that the "Fitz-" prefix
stood for "son of" in some language. If "FitzGerald"
originally denoted "son of Gerald", the uppercase "G" would
not be surprising.
It's also not surprising that the "g" should be lowercased
by people who no longer take "Fitz-" to be "son of" and who
don't find it properly conventional to put an uppercase
letter in the middle of a word.
(My headbone is whispering to me that "Fitz" may have been a
variant of "fils".)
Steffen Buehler
[...]
[Bob Cunningham:]
>>>> _Webster's New World Dictionary_ says to pronounce
>>>> "Fitzgerald" with three syllables, with stress on "ger", and
>>>> with the "i" of "fit", the "e" of "get", and the "a" like
>>>> the "o" in "bacon".
[...]
> I think that your description of the pronunciation of Fitzgerald (or
> FitzGerald) is quite common--perhaps standard.
Thank you. I try to relearn it. :-)
Don't ask me why I want(ed) to stress the first syllable - it would
never happen to me with the name "Fitzpatrick".
Regards
Steffen, with the gales of November remembered
Steve Hayes
>I had a cousin Antoinette but only her mother called her that, to everyone
>else she was Ann.
I had a friend Antoinette but only her mother called her that. Everyone else
called (AmE=named) her Toni.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Jitze Couperus
wrote:
>
>I think that your description of the pronunciation of Fitzgerald (or
>FitzGerald) is quite common--perhaps standard. As for the spelling with
>lowercase "g", well, many people don't find it necessary to keep those
>oldfashioned spellings, especially if the name's owner isn't around to
>defend _his_ choice. Have you seen variations in the capitalization of
>various parts of Dutch names? Especially the lower case of the "van" in
>vanNess. Or Van Ness. And that town in California--Van Nuys?
>
>I knew a girl named Van Hoof, and then there is some person on a TV news
>channel--(I think, or maybe some TV or Hollywood star) surnamed
>Vandenheuvel. Or Van Den Heuvel, or some such. Maybe "huevel", though
>I don't think so.
>
Sometimes Dutch names are "deconstructed" amusingly to what somebody
thought was the original correct version. Thus there is a Dutch name
"van Deventer" where the "Deventer" part happens to reflect the name
of a town in the Netherlands. Somebody then saw fit to "correct" the
spelling of the name to "van de Venter" which is now propagated
widely in the USA and Sar Thefrica, but unknown in the old country.
Jitze
Nick Spalding
on Fri, 23 Jun 2006 17:18:22 GMT:
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:29:35 -0400, Daniel al-Autistiqui
> <gove...@hotmail.invalid> said:
>
> > On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 09:22:05 GMT, Bob Cunningham
> > <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > >On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:05:19 GMT, Bob Cunningham
> > ><exw...@earthlink.net> said:
>
> > >[...]
>
> > >> [about pronouncing "Fitzgerald"]
>
> > >> _Webster's New World Dictionary_ says to pronounce
> > >> "Fitzgerald" with three syllables, with stress on "ger", and
> > >> with the "i" of "fit", the "e" of "get", and the "a" like
> > >> the "o" in "bacon".
>
> > And that's the way I have always pronounced the name of Edward
> > FitzGerald whenever I've had occasion to say it -- many, many times --
> > during the past few years. As some of you might recall, he was the
> > one who translated a collection of Persian poetry known as the
> > Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (['ru:bI,jAt @v 'oumAr kai'jAm]).
>
> > His surname is allegedly supposed to carry an internal capital letter,
> > as I have written it above, but it appears as a plain "Fitzgerald" in
> > many books, and I still don't understand why.
>
> I've gotten from somewhere the idea that the "Fitz-" prefix
> stood for "son of" in some language. If "FitzGerald"
> originally denoted "son of Gerald", the uppercase "G" would
> not be surprising.
Not just "son of", "illegitimate son of".
> It's also not surprising that the "g" should be lowercased
> by people who no longer take "Fitz-" to be "son of" and who
> don't find it properly conventional to put an uppercase
> letter in the middle of a word.
>
> (My headbone is whispering to me that "Fitz" may have been a
> variant of "fils".)
--
Nick Spalding
Salvatore Volatile
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:44:22 +0100, Nick Spalding <spal...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
>>I had a cousin Antoinette but only her mother called her that, to everyone
>>else she was Ann.
>
> I had a friend Antoinette but only her mother called her that. Everyone else
> called (AmE=named) her Toni.
"Called" in AmE. She was *named* Antoinette.
Surely this (call vs. name) was *once* a recognized distinction in BrE+;
what happened?
--
Salvatore Volatile
Paul Wolff
Durkin <dur...@sbc.com> writes
>
>"Daniel al-Autistiqui" <gove...@hotmail.invalid> wrote in message
>news:jp0o929bbvfkguidl...@4ax.com...
>>
>> as I have written it above, but it appears as a plain "Fitzgerald" in
>> many books, and I still don't understand why.
>>
>> "That Time and Fate of all their Vintage prest,
>> "Have drunk their Cup a Round or two before,
>> "And one by one crept silently to Rest."
>
>I think that your description of the pronunciation of Fitzgerald (or
>FitzGerald) is quite common--perhaps standard. As for the spelling with
>lowercase "g", well, many people don't find it necessary to keep those
>oldfashioned spellings, especially if the name's owner isn't around to
>defend _his_ choice. Have you seen variations in the capitalization of
>various parts of Dutch names? Especially the lower case of the "van" in
>vanNess. Or Van Ness. And that town in California--Van Nuys?
>
>I knew a girl named Van Hoof, and then there is some person on a TV news
>channel--(I think, or maybe some TV or Hollywood star) surnamed
>Vandenheuvel. Or Van Den Heuvel, or some such. Maybe "huevel", though
>I don't think so.
>
>Remember that Shakespeare spelled his own name in a number of different
>ways, though that was before spelling became such an important part of
>literacy.
>
de la R*** and de Lar*** at least, possibly some more caps in De and La
-- I can't keep up. Standardisation hasn't yet won.
Writing FitzGerald seems to be in Harmony with the Noun Capitalisation
in the Lines quoted by Daniel.
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo!
Mike Lyle
Well, if anything at all happened, it was before 1250. OED1 has "to
name" from 1000, and "to call" with the same meaning from 1250. There's
no hint that there was anything wrong with "call", and indeed that word
is used in the definition of "name". KJV, of course, has the expression
"call his name X", so they thought it was at least sort-of all right,
too. Your distinction is a slightly useful one, but it doesn't ever
seem to have had any currency in British English, properly so
called...so named...so styled...so designated...so, oh, to Hell with
it!
--
Mike.
Paul Wolff
"m.j.m...@bradford.ac.uk" <m.j.m...@bradford.ac.uk> writes
>x-no-archive: yes
>Wood Avens wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 23:27:18 +0100, Wood Avens
>> <wood...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 19:11:31 -0000, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>> >
>> >>Katy Jennison:
>> >>> Trying it out myself, it strikes me that I don't often say the name on
>> >>> its own (not that I often have occasion to say it at all): it's more
>> >>> likely to be combined with "Marie". So my pronounciation of "Marie
>> >>> Antionette" tends towards "MA-ri-an-toin-ETTE" ...
>> >>
>> >>Like "Mary"? Weird. "Ma-REE-an-twahn-ET" for me.
>> >
>> >No, actually -- in this setting, like "marry". An anglicisation, I
>> >suppose.
>>
>> On second thoughts, more like "Murry" (to rhyme with hurry). Not
>> Mary, anyway.
>>
>
>only ever heard her first name pronounced "MArry", (not Mary) rather
>than "m'REE". Marie Antoinette gets the same treatment in BrE.
>
Marie Lloyd was Mar- (as in BrE 'mar') -i-loyd, was she not?
--
Paul
Waving with his handkerchief
Bob Cunningham
<boun...@two.wolff.co.uk> said:
[...]
> Writing FitzGerald seems to be in Harmony with the Noun Capitalisation
> in the Lines quoted by Daniel.
From _Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate_:
Main Entry: FitzGerald
Function: biographical name
Edward 1809-1883 English poet & translator
Main Entry: FitzGerald
Function: biographical name
Garret 1926-- prime minister of Ireland (1981-87)
Google gets 884 hits on "Lorentz-FitzGerald contraction",
including
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FitzGerald-Lorentz_Contraction
, where it says for openers
The Lorentz-FitzGerald contraction hypothesis
was proposed by George FitzGerald and
independently proposed and extended by Hendrik
Lorentz to explain the negative result of the
Michelson-Morley experiment, which attempted to
detect Earth's motion relative to the
luminiferous aether.
Among the Google hits, the spelling varies between "Lorentz-
Fitzgerald" and "Lorentz-FitzGerald".
Bob Cunningham
On 23 Jun 2006 04:23:44 -0700, "Mike Lyle"
<mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> said:
I don't know where I got the idea that the _Collegiate_
biographical section doesn't have pronunciations. I've
checked earlier editions and find pronunciations in the
fifth, seventh, and ninth editions.
The geographical section in the _11th Collegiate_ also has
pronunciations. I haven't checked, but I assume that would
prove to be the case in earlier editions (where the
geographical section used to be called the "Gazetteer").
Okay, I've now looked at the Gazetteer in the _5th
Collegiate_, and it does indeed have pronunciations.
While I was at it, I wanted to see if Piscataway, New
Jersey, is really pronounced "Piss cat away", but they
didn't list it.
Google tells me now that "David56" said in 2004
Piscataway is pronounced as it looks with the
stress on the CAT bit. I know this because
I've actually been there; I stayed the night
at somebody's home.
I wonder if anyone pissed the cat away while he was there.
Robert Bannister
> (My headbone is whispering to me that "Fitz" may have been a
> variant of "fils".)
I've often wondered whether it was Norman-French for fils, or whether it
represented fils de.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
Look at a few other languages: je m'appelle - I call myself; menya zovut
- they call me.
--
Rob Bannister
R H Draney
>
>Well, if anything at all happened, it was before 1250. OED1 has "to
>name" from 1000, and "to call" with the same meaning from 1250. There's
>no hint that there was anything wrong with "call", and indeed that word
>is used in the definition of "name". KJV, of course, has the expression
>"call his name X", so they thought it was at least sort-of all right,
>too. Your distinction is a slightly useful one, but it doesn't ever
>seem to have had any currency in British English, properly so
>called...so named...so styled...so designated...so, oh, to Hell with
>it!
Damn...I was *so* hoping you'd hang in there long enough to use "yclept"....r
Bob Cunningham
> Bob Cunningham wrote:
The _Online Etymology Dictionary_, at
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fitz , has
fitz Look up fitz at Dictionary.com
Anglo-Fr. fitz, from O.Fr. fils, from L.
filius "son of" (see filial); used regularly
in official rolls and hence the first element
of many modern surnames; in later times used
of illegitimate issue of royalty.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
Dunno, but the Anoinette I knew was South African and now lives in Canada.
In SAfE there is a distinction between "named" and "called", though it doesn't
seem to be the same one as in AmE.
Bob Cunningham
<exw...@earthlink.net> said:
[...]
> The _Online Etymology Dictionary_, at
> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fitz , has
> fitz Look up fitz at Dictionary.com
> Anglo-Fr. fitz, from O.Fr. fils, from L.
> filius "son of" (see filial); used regularly
> in official rolls and hence the first element
> of many modern surnames; in later times used
> of illegitimate issue of royalty.
Some people may be puzzled by the phrase "look up fitz at
Dictionary.com" in the above. It's the label of a link that
appears as a small icon at that point in the original. When
I copied and pasted, the label came through as part of the
text. I didn't notice it until long after I had posted.
Steve Hayes
I suspect that in BrE "name" is more formal. For example in the baptism
service of the CofE, the priest asks the godparents to "Name this child", and
if it was "Call this child" I'm sure it would sound as odd to British ears as
it does to mine.
SV, however, seems to think that it would not sound at all odd to Brits, and
in that I believe he is mistaken.
Alan Jones
That's true of the baptismal ritual, but one does say to the parents of a
new baby "What are you going to call him?" meaning "Have you chosen a name
for him, and, if so, what is it?" Grammatically, "call" in this sense has to
have a complement as well as an object: "We're going to call him James";
without that, it just means to shout "Oy!" in his direction. "Name", as in
the priest's question, can stand without complement, meaning "Give a name
to".
Alan Jones
Alan Jones
NSOED (expanding some abbreviations):
fitz /fIts/ noun, obsolete except in historical usage. Found first in Middle
English. [AngloNorman spelling of OldFrench fiz, earlier filz (modern French
fils), from Latin filius son.]
A son. Chiefly in patronymic designations, surviving as an element in
surnames, e.g. Fitzherbert, Fitzwilliam, latterly sometimes bestowed on the
illegitimate sons of princes.
{Citation] J. WEST The contentions of Henry Fitz-empress with Eleanora of
Guienne.
So it doesn't strictly represent "fils de", though implying the "de". The
"z" is evidently already present in the Old French.
Alan Jones
Mike Lyle
R H Draney wrote:
> Mike Lyle filted:
> >
> >Well, if anything at all happened, it was before 1250. OED1 has "to
> >name" from 1000, and "to call" with the same meaning from 1250. There's
> >no hint that there was anything wrong with "call", and indeed that word
> >is used in the definition of "name". KJV, of course, has the expression
> >"call his name X", so they thought it was at least sort-of all right,
> >too. Your distinction is a slightly useful one, but it doesn't ever
> >seem to have had any currency in British English, properly so
> >called...so named...so styled...so designated...so, oh, to Hell with
> >it!
>
> Damn...I was *so* hoping you'd hang in there long enough to use "yclept"....r
So was I, but for some reason my memory had placed an embargo on the
information. Maybe it had in mind your warning about attracting the
attention of the security services with funny words...hang on a
mo..."Ah, good afternoon, officer! No, it wasn't me, it was him. Name
of Draney, signs with a small letter, reads books, writes music and
stuff: seems pretty flaky to me...Yes, son of what they euphemistically
call a 'plumber'. A well dodgy geezer on the face of it."
--
Mike.
Peter Moylan
> And that's the way I have always pronounced the name of Edward
> FitzGerald whenever I've had occasion to say it -- many, many times
> -- during the past few years. As some of you might recall, he was
> the one who translated a collection of Persian poetry known as the
> Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (['ru:bI,jAt @v 'oumAr kai'jAm]).
>
> His surname is allegedly supposed to carry an internal capital
> letter, as I have written it above, but it appears as a plain
> "Fitzgerald" in many books, and I still don't understand why.
The idea that a name might have a "correct spelling" seems to be a
modern invention. Over the past couple of weeks I've been struggling
through some birth and marriage registers from the 1800s, in an attempt
to find out more about my ancestry, and even there you can find names
spelt several different ways, even though it's obviously the same person.
At high school a girl in my class had the surname Lebreton or Le Breton
or leBreton. I once asked her what the correct spelling was, and her
answer boiled down to saying that it didn't matter; the family accepted
any of the obvious variations, and apparently it hadn't occurred to them
to pick one and use it as their standard.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
reliably receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses.
The optusnet address still has about 2 months of life left.
R J Valentine
...
} The idea that a name might have a "correct spelling" seems to be a
} modern invention. Over the past couple of weeks I've been struggling
} through some birth and marriage registers from the 1800s, in an attempt
} to find out more about my ancestry, and even there you can find names
} spelt several different ways, even though it's obviously the same person.
}
} At high school a girl in my class had the surname Lebreton or Le Breton
} or leBreton. I once asked her what the correct spelling was, and her
} answer boiled down to saying that it didn't matter; the family accepted
} any of the obvious variations, and apparently it hadn't occurred to them
} to pick one and use it as their standard.
My ancestors in Lothringen changed names like socks. A guy might be
Schmitt one day and Marchal the next.
--
rjv
Graeme Thomas
Moylan <pe...@DIESPAMMERSozebelg.org> writes
>At high school a girl in my class had the surname Lebreton or Le Breton
>or leBreton. I once asked her what the correct spelling was, and her
>answer boiled down to saying that it didn't matter; the family accepted
>any of the obvious variations, and apparently it hadn't occurred to them
>to pick one and use it as their standard.
The problem would be that it wouldn't have mattered if they *had* picked
a standard; no-one else would have stuck to it.
My brother-in-law's father and grandfather had different names. One
began "Mac", while the other began "Mc". The change happened when my
BiL's father joined the army. The recruiting clerk wrote down the wrong
spelling, and then claimed that it could not be changed. He continued
with his "army" name when he rejoined civilian life. My BiL will answer
to either spelling, but if pressed he points out that all the official
paperwork says "Mc".
On a more personal level, I dislike being addressed as "Graham". It's
the wrong spelling. It is, as I have been known to point out, crackers.
But, no matter how much I make this dislike known, acquaintances
continue to do it.
--
Graeme Thomas
Peter Moylan
> All the misery in the world is created by people who give tosses.
Should I touch that one? No, better not.
T.H. Entity
<gra...@graemet.demon.co.uk> wrought:
Don't you, even secretly without telling anybody ever, wish your
parents had given you a name that everyone knew how to spell as soon
as you uttered it? I've often thought that about the world's Stevens
and Stephens, Geoffreys and Jeffreys.
The only famous two people called /'greI@m/ who spell it your way that
come to mind are the unfunny one in the Goodies -- okay, make that
"the particularly unfunny one" -- and some Jock clogger who played for
Liverpool and then became a manager. (I assume that Graham Greene's
parents decided he already had enough on his plate with his surname.)
Me, since that mugging, bewigged comic popped his clogs I seldom get
asked whether my surname is spelled with an "a" or an "e". I always
hated that man for ruining my life like that.
--
THE
Graeme Thomas
<ggu...@yahoo.com> writes
>>On a more personal level, I dislike being addressed as "Graham". It's
>>the wrong spelling. It is, as I have been known to point out, crackers.
>>But, no matter how much I make this dislike known, acquaintances
>>continue to do it.
>
>Don't you, even secretly without telling anybody ever, wish your
>parents had given you a name that everyone knew how to spell as soon
>as you uttered it? I've often thought that about the world's Stevens
>and Stephens, Geoffreys and Jeffreys.
No. My siblings are all faced with the same problem, so I didn't feel
particularly hard done by. I have the advantage that the comparative
rarity of "Graeme" means that, when people use the name, they usually
mean me.
>The only famous two people called /'greI@m/ who spell it your way that
>come to mind are the unfunny one in the Goodies -- okay, make that
>"the particularly unfunny one" -- and some Jock clogger who played for
>Liverpool and then became a manager.
I can tell you are not a cricket aficionado. Graeme Smith captains the
South African side; and Graeme Hick continues to score centuries for his
county. (This week he managed to score his 100th 100 for his county,
and worked his way to 8th in the total century-makers.)
>(I assume that Graham Greene's
>parents decided he already had enough on his plate with his surname.)
WIWAL I were occasionally asked if I spelt my surname with a P. It took
me a while to realize that my questioners believed that I was a Thompson
(or Thomson). The odd thing is that this question hasn't happened for
30 years or so.
--
Graeme Thomas
Salvatore Volatile
> On a more personal level, I dislike being addressed as "Graham". It's
> the wrong spelling. It is, as I have been known to point out, crackers.
> But, no matter how much I make this dislike known, acquaintances
> continue to do it.
Do you regard "Graeme" and "Graham" as having different pronunciations?
Me, I pronounce "gram", "Graham", and "Graeme" alike.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Graeme Thomas
<m...@privacy.net> writes
>Graeme Thomas wrote:
>> On a more personal level, I dislike being addressed as "Graham". It's
>> the wrong spelling. It is, as I have been known to point out, crackers.
>> But, no matter how much I make this dislike known, acquaintances
>> continue to do it.
>
>Do you regard "Graeme" and "Graham" as having different pronunciations?
No. They are both /'greI @m/.
>Me, I pronounce "gram", "Graham", and "Graeme" alike.
The first of those should be /gr&m/. Do you mispronounce "gram" or the
two names?
--
Graeme Thomas
Tony Cooper
Yes, but everyone knows that you are crackers.
BTW, I would not. "Gram" is one thing, but the other two are
"Gray-am".
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Stephen Calder
> They both sound the same to me but with two syllables, accented on the
> first, "grey-'em".
>
I meant the two names. "Gram", of course, can only have one syllable.
--
Stephen
Lennox Head, Australia
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Don't you, even secretly without telling anybody ever, wish your
>parents had given you a name that everyone knew how to spell as soon
>as you uttered it? I've often thought that about the world's Stevens
>and Stephens, Geoffreys and Jeffreys.
>
My brother is a Jeff. Actually, he's either a Jeffery or Jeffrey. I
forget which way it is, but when he obtained his birth certificate to
get a passport (in his 20s), he found he'd been spelling his own name
differently than what was on his birth certificate.
Stephen Calder
They both sound the same to me but with two syllables, accented on the
first, "grey-'em".
--
Stephen
Lennox Head, Australia
Nick Spalding
on Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:14:08 +0100:
> X-No-Archive: yes
> In message <449d43e7$0$20683$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>, Peter
> Moylan <pe...@DIESPAMMERSozebelg.org> writes
>
> >At high school a girl in my class had the surname Lebreton or Le Breton
> >or leBreton. I once asked her what the correct spelling was, and her
> >answer boiled down to saying that it didn't matter; the family accepted
> >any of the obvious variations, and apparently it hadn't occurred to them
> >to pick one and use it as their standard.
>
> Bully for her. I'm often surprised at just how touchy some people decide
> to be over names. My dear agent, an otherwise rational person, got as
> mad as marsh mallow with a TV company for crediting me as 'Jim Follett',
> and went into orbit when she received an advance cover for a paperback
> with my name spelt as 'James Follet'. Me? I didn't give a toss, but then
> I don't give a toss about anything.
>
> All the misery in the world is created by people who give tosses.
I confess I do get a bit cross when someone replying to a post of mine in
which my name appears correctly spelled a minimum of three times, as it has
in everything I have posted for the past eleven years, refers to me as
Spaulding.
--
Nick Spalding
Salvatore Volatile
I pronounce all three correctly as [grE@m]. "Grayham" is another matter.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Robert Lieblich
In Texas it has at least two. Ask former Senator Phil Gramm.
--
Bob Lieblich
Not joking
Nick Spalding
on Sat, 24 Jun 2006 14:37:45 -0400:
They sound both 'm's?
--
Nick Spalding
Stephen Calder
Noted. I can kind of hear that southern diphthong.
Stephen Calder
Some people with that name do pronounce it "gram". Graham Parsons is
one. Since a person's name is to be pronounced as the person gives it, I
think your definition of "correct" needs adjustment in this case.
Salvatore Volatile
> Robert Lieblich wrote:
>>
>> In Texas it has at least two. Ask former Senator Phil Gramm.
>>
>
> Noted. I can kind of hear that southern diphthong.
I think in the South it's actually a triphthong. Check with Professor
Whom.
--
Salvatore Volatile
R H Draney
My brother is a Michael, but that's only because someone back in the 70s
resorted to extraordinary measures to get the spelling fixed on the official
record of his birth...before that, he was a Micael....r
--
It's the crack on the wall and the stain on the cup that gets to you
in the very end...every cat has its fall when it runs out of luck,
so you can do with a touch of zen...cause when you're screwed,
you're screwed...and when it's blue, it's blue.
R J Valentine
} Tony Cooper filted:
...
}>My brother is a Jeff. Actually, he's either a Jeffery or Jeffrey. I
}>forget which way it is, but when he obtained his birth certificate to
}>get a passport (in his 20s), he found he'd been spelling his own name
}>differently than what was on his birth certificate.
}
} My brother is a Michael, but that's only because someone back in the 70s
} resorted to extraordinary measures to get the spelling fixed on the official
} record of his birth...before that, he was a Micael....r
My wife's name (and her mother's, too) was misspelled on her birth
certificate. My grandmother's name was misspelled (and fairly obviously
"corrected" wrong, to boot) on my aunt's birth certificate (and I've got a
cousin named after the "corrected" spelling).
Birth certificates are evidence, not proof, in English usage.
--
rjv
(whose Uncle David was counted in two different cities in the 1920 Census)
Nick Spalding
on Sun, 25 Jun 2006 12:35:11 +0000 (UTC):
My mother's middle name was Ward which appeared as Maud on her birth
certificate but was correct on her marriage certificate when she could speak
up for herself.
--
Nick Spalding
R H Draney
>
>On 24 Jun 2006 23:28:56 -0700 R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>} My brother is a Michael, but that's only because someone back in the 70s
>} resorted to extraordinary measures to get the spelling fixed on the official
>} record of his birth...before that, he was a Micael....r
>
They're also official, and there are penalties for supplying a "false identity"
(i.e., a name different in any way from that on the birth certificate) in
certain contexts...my great-aunt couldn't get a passport issued in the name
"Bonnie Lee McAndrews"...the problem was that her birth certificate, made over
sixty years earlier, had her as "Baby Girl Holloway" and the record had never
been amended with the actual name she'd used her entire life (apparently they
have no problem with the whole maiden/married-name business)...she had to find
someone who was present when she was born to swear that this person was the one
born in territorial Oklahoma on the date in question....
Fortunately, her older sister (my grandmother) was able to make the necessary
statement under oath....r
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> My brother is a Michael, but that's only because someone back in the 70s
> resorted to extraordinary measures to get the spelling fixed on the official
> record of his birth...before that, he was a Micael....r
My wife's late mother was born in New York in 1910. Her parents told
the midwife that she was to be named "Bella." Someone slipped up, and
the birth certificate came back with that final "a" replaced by a "y."
(IKYN) As soon as she was old enough to write her name, she adopted
"Billye," and that was it for the rest of her life.
We're more careful now, I suppose, but a corollary is that it's harder
to fix the rare error that still occurs.
--
Bob Lieblich
Let's see you top that typo
Skitt
It appears to be impossible to correct the spelling of someone's last name
on the cable bill. Everything else can be changed, but not the name. I've
tried. Twice.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
Mike Lyle
Salvatore Volatile wrote:
[...]
> Me, I pronounce "gram", "Graham", and "Graeme" alike.
Now, you see, I think that's plain old mispronunciation. Compare the
case of some Scots (I've mentioned this before), who dialectally drop
the second of a pair of vowels unseparated by a consonant. Take Radio 4
listeners' favourite Scotsman, the owner of what seems to be the
fastest brain in the country, Eddie Mair. Lovely voice, lovely accent,
and if he says "line" when I say "lion", it's usually OK by me. Perhaps
we should put up with "poyt", "penist", and "theetre"*, but I don't
think anybody has a right to plead dialect in defence of changing the
number of syllables in somebody's name. There really was no such person
as "Beetrix Potter".
*But, by heaven, I won't put up with them from that poet with the silly
voice: if she wants to say them that way and still call herself a poyt,
she can darned well spell them that way, too, and redesignate herself a
"dialect poet", or "dylect poyt".
--
Mike.
Daniel al-Autistiqui
wrote:
Yes, I am rather concerned about this. Salvatore, do you always
pronounce the names "Graham" and "Graeme" like "gram", even when you
know that the bearer of the name uses a different pronunciation?
I would really appreciate it if you would respond here, Sal.
daniel mcgrath
--
Daniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende":
for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com"
Developmentally disabled;
has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder),
Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder,
& periodic bouts of depression.
[This signature is under construction.]
Salvatore Volatile
> On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:46:05 +1000, Stephen Calder <cal...@in.com.au>
> wrote:
>
>>Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Me, I pronounce "gram", "Graham", and "Graeme" alike.
>>>>
>>>>The first of those should be /gr&m/. Do you mispronounce "gram" or the
>>>>two names?
>>>
>>>
>>> I pronounce all three correctly as [grE@m]. "Grayham" is another matter.
>>>
>>
>>Some people with that name do pronounce it "gram". Graham Parsons is
>>one. Since a person's name is to be pronounced as the person gives it, I
>>think your definition of "correct" needs adjustment in this case.
>
> Yes, I am rather concerned about this. Salvatore, do you always
> pronounce the names "Graham" and "Graeme" like "gram", even when you
> know that the bearer of the name uses a different pronunciation?
Yes, I do, but it's partly because I *hear* the other pronunciation as
"gram". It's not like I'm consciously deciding to pronounce the name
differently from the name owner's pronunciation. I suppose I could think
of "Graeme" as "Grayham" or "Grayum", which would lead me to pronounce the
name "correctly" by the standards of the name owner, but it would make me
somewhat uncomfortable to do so. It's Graham (or some spelling variation
thereon); it ought to be pronounced like "Graham [cracker]", and that's
like "gram".
What of Phil Gramm, though? He pronounces his name like "Grayham", in a
sense, but he pronounces "gram" that way too.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Graeme Thomas
<m...@privacy.net> writes
>I suppose I could think
>of "Graeme" as "Grayham" or "Grayum", which would lead me to pronounce the
>name "correctly" by the standards of the name owner,
I suppose I should make it clear that "Grayum" (or some close
approximation to that) isn't just my idiosyncratic pronunciation of the
name. It's the normal pronunciation in the UK, Australia, New Zealand,
and South Africa (to name four places which have produced Graemes or
Grahams whose names I have heard pronounced). It's only in the US that
there seems to be any possibility of variation.
>but it would make me
>somewhat uncomfortable to do so.
Why?
>It's Graham (or some spelling variation
>thereon); it ought to be pronounced like "Graham [cracker]", and that's
>like "gram".
There again, we differ. Every time I have heard of the crackers chap he
was a "Grayum".
ObCoincidence: as I was driving home last night I saw a roadside sign
advertising a "SalVo faire" (capitalization approximate). I did not see
it for long enough to notice any details.
--
Graeme Thomas
Frank ess
> In article <e7p2p4$b99$1...@news.wss.yale.edu>, Salvatore Volatile
> <m...@privacy.net> writes
>> I suppose I could think
>> of "Graeme" as "Grayham" or "Grayum", which would lead me to
>> pronounce the name "correctly" by the standards of the name owner,
>
> I suppose I should make it clear that "Grayum" (or some close
> approximation to that) isn't just my idiosyncratic pronunciation of
> the name. It's the normal pronunciation in the UK, Australia, New
> Zealand, and South Africa (to name four places which have produced
> Graemes or Grahams whose names I have heard pronounced). It's only
> in the US that there seems to be any possibility of variation.
>
>> but it would make me
>> somewhat uncomfortable to do so.
>
> Why?
>
>> It's Graham (or some spelling variation
>> thereon); it ought to be pronounced like "Graham [cracker]", and
>> that's like "gram".
>
> There again, we differ. Every time I have heard of the crackers
> chap
> he was a "Grayum".
>
From a very early age I wondered at (and disparaged, from time to
time) my Southern California playmates whose entire families were
consumers of gram crackers, when any fool coud plainly see (as I could
see) that what was on offer were grayum crackers.
--
Frank ess
Salvatore Volatile
> In article <e7p2p4$b99$1...@news.wss.yale.edu>, Salvatore Volatile
><m...@privacy.net> writes
>>I suppose I could think
>>of "Graeme" as "Grayham" or "Grayum", which would lead me to pronounce the
>>name "correctly" by the standards of the name owner,
>
> I suppose I should make it clear that "Grayum" (or some close
> approximation to that) isn't just my idiosyncratic pronunciation of the
> name. It's the normal pronunciation in the UK, Australia, New Zealand,
> and South Africa (to name four places which have produced Graemes or
> Grahams whose names I have heard pronounced). It's only in the US that
> there seems to be any possibility of variation.
It's "Grayum" in much of the US too, I should note. In fact, as I once
reported here, I was surprised to hear my sister (eight years my senior,
grew up in the same speech community) pronouncing the cracker as "grayum".
>>but it would make me
>>somewhat uncomfortable to do so.
>
> Why?
To me it's sort of like being expected to call Bob Cunningham "Bawb", or
Jerry Friedman "Jairy", even though it's somewhat different. "Graham"
happens to have a standard pronunciation in my dialect, and that
pronunciation ought to be used in the interest of dialectal integrity.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Michael West
<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>It's "Grayum" in much of the US too, I should note. In fact, as I once
>reported here, I was surprised to hear my sister (eight years my senior,
>grew up in the same speech community) pronouncing the cracker as "grayum".
When we were kids growing up in Chicago, they were gramcrackers,
somehow related to gramma and grampa.
--
MW
Salvatore Volatile
I made that connection too, because my maternal grandma /gr&mA/ and
grandpa /gr&mpA/ used to give me graham /gr&m/ crackers when I'd visit.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Aaron J. Dinkin
> My wife's name (and her mother's, too) was misspelled on her birth
> certificate. My grandmother's name was misspelled (and fairly obviously
> "corrected" wrong, to boot) on my aunt's birth certificate (and I've got a
> cousin named after the "corrected" spelling).
>
> Birth certificates are evidence, not proof, in English usage.
Tell that to Moocow Poorchick.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom>
Aaron J. Dinkin
> In article <e7p2p4$b99$1...@news.wss.yale.edu>, Salvatore Volatile
><m...@privacy.net> writes
>
>>It's Graham (or some spelling variation
>>thereon); it ought to be pronounced like "Graham [cracker]", and that's
>>like "gram".
>
> There again, we differ. Every time I have heard of the crackers chap he
> was a "Grayum".
As usual, it comes down to sound change, I think. Sal merely has a
dialect in which earlier /ey@/ and /&/ underwent a merger before /m/ at
some point.
Salvatore Volatile
Actually, I think gram/Graham is _sui generis_.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Daniel al-Autistiqui
I did not make clear in my previous post the pronunciation of "Graham"
that *I* am used to. I now realize that I certainly should have, as
it is neither "Gram" nor the two-syllable "Grayum". See below for my
pronunciation.
Obviously the name must have been pronounced in two syllables
originally, like ['grei @m] ("Grayum"). People began to say "Grayum"
fast, and the pronunciation got contracted to ['gre@m]. This, of
course, is the same as the word "gram" for speakers whose "short 'a'"
sounds are made "tense" in that word (along with certain other words).
But there is another way in which the pronunciation of "Graham" can
get simplified to one syllable. To illustrate, observe that I am used
to both "poem" and "ruin" pronounced as one-syllable words, ['poum]
and ['ru:n] instead of the traditional ['pou @m] and ['ru: @n]. In
these cases, the schwa disappears altogether; it does not survive in a
diphthong as it does with "Gram" above. Thus, in my experience, the
same simplification process takes place with "Graham", so that it is
pronounced ['greim] ("Graim": rhyming with words like "aim", "blame",
"came", "claim", "dame", "fame", "flame", "frame", "game", "lame",
"maim", "name", "same", "shame", and "tame"). (I think it is
significant here that "Graham", "poem", and "ruin" all have a nasal as
their final consonant.) My mother uses the "graim" pronunciation for
the "graham" of "graham cracker", and AFAICT that's her usual
pronunciation for "Graham" as part of a personal name as well. If I
was to say "graham cracker", this is the pronunciation I would
probably use, although sometimes my mind can't seem to decide whether
to include the schwa in words like this, probably as if I could not
decide whether "graim" or "grayum" is "more correct". But I
definitely would never say "gram"; that just sounds silly.
Interestingly enough, I had always thought that <Graeme> was a
spelling invented by someone who strongly insisted on ['greim] for the
pronunciation of their child's name. Since they would have been
afraid that it might get mispronounced if spelled <Graham>, they had
to change it to <Graeme>, perhaps by analogy with Scottish words like
"brae". I pronounce both <Graham> and <Graeme> as "Graim"; I knew
that "Gram" was a variant pronunciation for <Graham> but I never would
have thought it could extend to <Graeme>. But now that I think about
it, it would have to take a bit of a stretch for a parent to come up
with a spelling of <Graeme>; after all, I cannot think of another word
(including proper names) that has a configuration of
"ae"-consonant-"e" at the end. I wonder where the <Graeme> variant
*did* come from.