OT Why is his name pronounced as it is?

[Micky]

Why is Pierre Boulez (French: [pj?? bu.l??z] 's name pronounced with a
Z on the end? He was born in France and iiuc final z's in French are
silent.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

There was a discussion of this yesterday on fr.lettres.langue.anglaise
from which I gather that the pronunciation with [z] at the end is
regarded as an English pronunciation. If so, this wouldn't be the first
example of a name pronounced differently in English from the way it's
pronounced in its original language.


--
athel

[Isabelle C]

Le 11/01/2016 20:44, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> On 2016-01-11 19:19:50 +0000, Micky said:
>
>> Why is Pierre Boulez (French: [pj?? bu.l??z] 's name pronounced with a
>> Z on the end? He was born in France and iiuc final z's in French are
>> silent.
>
> There was a discussion of this yesterday on fr.lettres.langue.anglaise
> from which I gather that the pronunciation with [z] at the end is
> regarded as an English pronunciation.

The pronunciation with [z] is the regular French pronunciation. I've
never heard his name pronounced in any other way.

Berlioz and Mermoz are other names pronounced with the [z] in standard
French, although the regional pronunciation would leave the final
consonant silent, as is usual in place-names such as La Clusaz.

> If so, this wouldn't be the first
> example of a name pronounced differently in English from the way it's
> pronounced in its original language.
>
>


--

Isabelle

[Pierre Jelenc]

In article <n712ki$989$1...@solani.org>,
Isabelle C <isab...@lewanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:
>Le 11/01/2016 20:44, Athel Cornish-Bowden a ?rit :

>> On 2016-01-11 19:19:50 +0000, Micky said:
>>
>>> Why is Pierre Boulez (French: [pj?? bu.l??z] 's name pronounced with a
>>> Z on the end? He was born in France and iiuc final z's in French are
>>> silent.
>>
>> There was a discussion of this yesterday on fr.lettres.langue.anglaise
>> from which I gather that the pronunciation with [z] at the end is
>> regarded as an English pronunciation.
>
>The pronunciation with [z] is the regular French pronunciation. I've
>never heard his name pronounced in any other way.

He was born in Montbrison, in an area of the (originally) Francoprovençal-
speaking Forez region, where the "z" is frequently pronounced.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forez#Prononciation

Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org

[James Hogg]

Isabelle C wrote:
> Le 11/01/2016 20:44, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
>> On 2016-01-11 19:19:50 +0000, Micky said:
>>
>>> Why is Pierre Boulez (French: [pj?? bu.l??z] 's name pronounced with a
>>> Z on the end? He was born in France and iiuc final z's in French are
>>> silent.
>> There was a discussion of this yesterday on fr.lettres.langue.anglaise
>> from which I gather that the pronunciation with [z] at the end is
>> regarded as an English pronunciation.
>
> The pronunciation with [z] is the regular French pronunciation.

Forvo confirms that:

http://forvo.com/word/pierre_boulez/#fr

--
James

[Lanarcam]

Some say that Boulez is an alternative spelling for Boulet, Boulay,
Boulé, etc, so it should be pronounced without the 'z'.

[Jack Campin]

>> Why is Pierre Boulez's name pronounced with a Z on the end?

> He was born in Montbrison, in an area of the (originally)

> Francoprovencal-speaking Forez region, where the "z" is
> frequently pronounced.

Another French composer with a surprising consonant: Jean Francaix
(with an "x" as in English). I think his origins were from the
same area.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Isabelle C]

Le 11/01/2016 23:57, Jack Campin a écrit :
[...]

> Another French composer with a surprising consonant: Jean Francaix
> (with an "x" as in English). I think his origins were from the
> same area.

Jean Françaix's name is pronounced without the "x" in French.

We can hear his name several times here, uttered by his fellow composers
Dutilleux and Landowski as well as the philosopher Michel Serres:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pze3rFIz3gY

He was born in Le Mans, not at all in the same region as Boulez.


--
Isabelle

[Dingbat]

On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 at 11:53:11 AM UTC+5:30, Isabelle C wrote:
> Le 11/01/2016 23:57, Jack Campin a écrit :
> [...]
> > Another French composer with a surprising consonant: Jean Francaix
> > (with an "x" as in English). I think his origins were from the
> > same area.
>
> Jean Françaix's name is pronounced without the "x" in French.

Why is the <x> pronounced in Dupleix and Aix [la Chapelle]?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POSReoW07FU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G0Tw1fRhoE

[J. J. Lodder]

Isabelle C <isab...@lewanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:

> Le 11/01/2016 20:44, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> > On 2016-01-11 19:19:50 +0000, Micky said:
> >
> >> Why is Pierre Boulez (French: [pj?? bu.l??z] 's name pronounced with a
> >> Z on the end? He was born in France and iiuc final z's in French are
> >> silent.
> >
> > There was a discussion of this yesterday on fr.lettres.langue.anglaise
> > from which I gather that the pronunciation with [z] at the end is
> > regarded as an English pronunciation.
>
> The pronunciation with [z] is the regular French pronunciation. I've
> never heard his name pronounced in any other way.
>
> Berlioz and Mermoz are other names pronounced with the [z] in standard
> French, although the regional pronunciation would leave the final
> consonant silent, as is usual in place-names such as La Clusaz.

Foreign learners are often taught the hypercorrect error
that the final -s end -z are never pronounced in French.
Many of them never learn that there are exceptions,
and that the Parisian isn't the only French,

Jan

[Isabelle C]

Le 12/01/2016 15:23, Dingbat a écrit :
> On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 at 11:53:11 AM UTC+5:30, Isabelle C wrote:
>> Le 11/01/2016 23:57, Jack Campin a écrit :
>> [...]
>>> Another French composer with a surprising consonant: Jean Francaix
>>> (with an "x" as in English). I think his origins were from the
>>> same area.
>>
>> Jean Françaix's name is pronounced without the "x" in French.
>
> Why is the <x> pronounced in Dupleix and Aix [la Chapelle]?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POSReoW07FU
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G0Tw1fRhoE

No easy answer, I'm afraid. That's just the way it is.

Names, whether they are place-names, family names, first names, follow
their own rules, depending on family tradition, regional pronunciations
and so on.

A famous name in France, and probably elsewhere, is that of of Louis de
Broglie, which is pronounced as a Frenchified version of the Italian
name, [dəbʁɔj], or even more Frenchified, as if it was spelled "de Breuil".

The same phenomenon occurs in English, doesn't it, regarding names ?

I remember discussions about the first name of General Colin Powell.

And what about Reagan?

>>
>> We can hear his name several times here, uttered by his fellow composers
>> Dutilleux and Landowski as well as the philosopher Michel Serres:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pze3rFIz3gY
>>
>> He was born in Le Mans, not at all in the same region as Boulez.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Isabelle

--
Isabelle

[Robert Bannister]

Could it not be Spanish dialect? I'm assuming proper Spanish would have
-eth.

--
Robert B.

[Robert Bannister]

On 12/01/2016 10:28 am, Dingbat wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 at 4:27:04 AM UTC+5:30, Jack Campin

> wrote:
>>>> Why is Pierre Boulez's name pronounced with a Z on the end?
>>> He was born in Montbrison, in an area of the (originally)
>>> Francoprovencal-speaking Forez region, where the "z" is
>>> frequently pronounced.
>>
>> Another French composer with a surprising consonant: Jean Francaix
>> (with an "x" as in English).
>>
>> I think his origins were from the same area.
>>

> Is this a conservative pronunciation? That is, was it pronounced that
> way in French too once? It's how <x> sounds in French pronunciation
> of <Aix la Chapelle>.

I learnt Aix (en Provence) as "eks", but Aix la Chapelle was "ess" - not
sure where that pronunciation came from. Then we have place names like
Chamonix with an X in the place itself but silent in Paris.

--
Robert B.

[Peter Moylan]

Then you have Bruxelles, where the X is pronounced in Paris but not in
Brussels.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[J. J. Lodder]

Isabelle C <isab...@lewanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:

> Le 12/01/2016 15:23, Dingbat a écrit :
> > On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 at 11:53:11 AM UTC+5:30, Isabelle C wrote:
> >> Le 11/01/2016 23:57, Jack Campin a écrit :
> >> [...]
> >>> Another French composer with a surprising consonant: Jean Francaix
> >>> (with an "x" as in English). I think his origins were from the
> >>> same area.
> >>
> >> Jean Françaix's name is pronounced without the "x" in French.
> >
> > Why is the <x> pronounced in Dupleix and Aix [la Chapelle]?
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POSReoW07FU
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G0Tw1fRhoE
>
> No easy answer, I'm afraid. That's just the way it is.
>
> Names, whether they are place-names, family names, first names, follow
> their own rules, depending on family tradition, regional pronunciations
> and so on.
>
> A famous name in France, and probably elsewhere, is that of of Louis de
> Broglie, which is pronounced as a Frenchified version of the Italian

> name, [d?b??j], or even more Frenchified, as if it was spelled "de Breuil".

He is a bit forgotten, outside France, I'm afraid.
He didn't contribute much to the quantum revolution,
except for the 'De Broglie wavelength' named after him.
Wavelegth by itself isn't used very much anymore,
most of the time people use the inverse, called the wave vector,
since that relates directly to momentum.
(just like the frequenc being more important than the period)

I was taught long ago that the 'Broglie' part has one sylable,
and should be pronounced as if spelled Breuil.

> The same phenomenon occurs in English, doesn't it, regarding names ?

The English are famous for their:
'we are the English, we don't care, we'll pronounce it our way'
attitude. (Grave Lines excepted, as discussed previousthread)

The French had something of that too,
but I think attitudes are slowly changing.
I have heard some genuine attempts
at a more or less correct pronunciation
of those horrible Dutch or Flemish names.
In sports reporting for example, or in politics.
(like Jeroen Dijsselbloem)

And now quite off-topic: I like to turn on the Tour de France
live reporting, not for the sport,
but because it is great video wallpaper,
with magnificent helicopter views of French countryside,
(all those sunflowers)
and motard shots of villages they pass through.
Inevitably you get some names too,
if you don't turn of the sound completely.

Jan

[Jack Campin]

>>>> Why is Pierre Boulez's name pronounced with a Z on the end?
>>> He was born in Montbrison, in an area of the (originally)
>>> Francoprovencal-speaking Forez region, where the "z" is
>>> frequently pronounced.
>> Another French composer with a surprising consonant: Jean Francaix
>> (with an "x" as in English).
>> I think his origins were from the same area.
> Is this a conservative pronunciation? That is, was it pronounced that
> way in French too once? It's how <x> sounds in French pronunciation
> of <Aix la Chapelle>.

The language that pronunciation comes from is neither French nor English.

[Adam Funk]

On 2016-01-13, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> The English are famous for their:
> 'we are the English, we don't care, we'll pronounce it our way'
> attitude. (Grave Lines excepted, as discussed previousthread)
>
> The French had something of that too,
> but I think attitudes are slowly changing.
> I have heard some genuine attempts
> at a more or less correct pronunciation
> of those horrible Dutch or Flemish names.
> In sports reporting for example, or in politics.
> (like Jeroen Dijsselbloem)

Joris-Karl Huysmans


--
There's a statute of limitations with the law, but not with
your wife. --- Ray Magliozzi, Car Talk 2011-36

[Adam Funk]

On 2016-01-13, Jack Campin wrote:

>>>>> Why is Pierre Boulez's name pronounced with a Z on the end?
>>>> He was born in Montbrison, in an area of the (originally)
>>>> Francoprovencal-speaking Forez region, where the "z" is
>>>> frequently pronounced.
>>> Another French composer with a surprising consonant: Jean Francaix
>>> (with an "x" as in English).
>>> I think his origins were from the same area.
>> Is this a conservative pronunciation? That is, was it pronounced that
>> way in French too once? It's how <x> sounds in French pronunciation
>> of <Aix la Chapelle>.
>
> The language that pronunciation comes from is neither French nor English.

There's no /ks/ in the German name.

(AIUI, "Aix-en-Provence" has a different etymology & is a
coincidence.)


--
Mrs CJ and I avoid clichés like the plague.

[James Hogg]

Aren't they both ultimately from Latin "aqua"? Then there are places
where it has becomes "Aigues".

--
James

[Dingbat]

On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 3:59:01 PM UTC+5:30, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> Isabelle C wrote:
> > A famous name in France, and probably elsewhere, is that of of Louis de
> > Broglie, which is pronounced as a Frenchified version of the Italian
> > name, [d?b??j], or even more Frenchified, as if it was spelled "de Breuil".
>
> He is a bit forgotten, outside France, I'm afraid.
> He didn't contribute much to the quantum revolution,
> except for the 'De Broglie wavelength' named after him.
> Wavelegth by itself isn't used very much anymore,
> most of the time people use the inverse, called the wave vector,
> since that relates directly to momentum.
> (just like the frequenc being more important than the period)
>
> I was taught long ago that the 'Broglie' part has one sylable,
> and should be pronounced as if spelled Breuil.
>
> > The same phenomenon occurs in English, doesn't it, regarding names ?
>
> The English are famous for their:
> 'we are the English, we don't care, we'll pronounce it our way'
> attitude. (Grave Lines excepted, as discussed previousthread)
>
> The French had something of that too,
> but I think attitudes are slowly changing.
> I have heard some genuine attempts
> at a more or less correct pronunciation
> of those horrible Dutch or Flemish names.
> In sports reporting for example, or in politics.
> (like Jeroen Dijsselbloem)

It seems less likely that Cyrillic users would mispronounce his name coz they'd respell it in Cyrillic such as to render something close to his pronunciation. Does Europe have room for two Latin spellings of a name? For example, can this person have an English spelling Jeroon Deisselbloom in addition to the Dutch/ Flemish spelling?

[Jack Campin]

>>>>>> Why is Pierre Boulez's name pronounced with a Z on the end?
>>>>> He was born in Montbrison, in an area of the (originally)
>>>>> Francoprovencal-speaking Forez region, where the "z" is
>>>>> frequently pronounced.
>>>> Another French composer with a surprising consonant: Jean Francaix
>>>> (with an "x" as in English).
>>>> I think his origins were from the same area.
>>> Is this a conservative pronunciation? That is, was it pronounced that
>>> way in French too once? It's how <x> sounds in French pronunciation
>>> of <Aix la Chapelle>.
>> The language that pronunciation comes from is neither French nor
>> English.
> There's no /ks/ in the German name.

Looking it up on worldnames.publicprofiler.org, I see the name has
two concentrations, one in Provence and the other in Normandy. I'd
assumed he was of Provencal extraction, but as he was born in Le Mans,
probably not. Is it Flemish?

[Dingbat]

On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 4:52:18 PM UTC+5:30, Jack Campin wrote:
> >> (with an "x" as in English).

> > It's how <x> sounds in French pronunciation
> > of <Aix la Chapelle>.
>
> The language that pronunciation comes from is neither French nor English.
>

Indeed? The audio track on this says it's the pronunciation in French:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G0Tw1fRhoE

[Adam Funk]

You're right --- I didn't go back far enough.

The name Aachen is a modern descendant, like southern German
Ach(e), Aach ‘river, stream’, of Old High German aha ‘water;
stream’ which directly translates (and etymologically corresponds
to) Latin Aquae, referring to the springs. The location has been
inhabited by humans since the Neolithic era, approximately 5,000
years ago, attracted to its warm mineral springs. Latin Aquae
figures in Aachen’s Roman name Aquae granni, which meant ‘Grannus’
waters’, referring to the Celtic god of healing who was worshiped
at the springs.[3][8] This word became Åxhe in Walloon and Aix in
French, and subsequently Aix-la-Chapelle after Charlemagne had a
cathedral built there in the late 8th century and then made the
city his empire’s capital.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aachen#Name>

However, the top of that article says the Latin name was
"Aquisgranum", which would provide the /ks/.


Aix (Aquae Sextiae) was founded in 123 BC by the Roman consul
Sextius Calvinus, who gave his name to its springs, following the
destruction of the nearby Gallic oppidum at Entremont.[3][4]

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aix-en-Provence#History>



--
Unit tests are like the boy who cried wolf.

[Adam Funk]

On 2016-01-13, Dingbat wrote:

> It seems less likely that Cyrillic users would mispronounce his name
> coz they'd respell it in Cyrillic such as to render something close
> to his pronunciation. Does Europe have room for two Latin spellings
> of a name? For example, can this person have an English spelling
> Jeroon Deisselbloom in addition to the Dutch/ Flemish spelling?

Someone told me a few years ago he'd encountered (more than once) math
texts translated from Russian by people who weren't familiar with the
history of mathematics in English; they referred to "Gilbert's
Problems".


--
I heard that Hans Christian Andersen lifted the title for "The Little
Mermaid" off a Red Lobster Menu. --- Bucky Katt

[Jack Campin]

> Does Europe have room for two Latin spellings of a name? For
> example, can this person have an English spelling Jeroon
> Deisselbloom in addition to the Dutch/ Flemish spelling?

That's commonly done in both Scottish and Irish Gaelic.
Somhairle mac Gill-Eain = Sorley MacLean.

[J. J. Lodder]

You can spell any way you want,
but with names of persons, in Latin script,
this is rarely done afaik.
(as opposed to place names, which may have spelling variants
in different languages)

Some of the Dutch style guides do sin in this respect,
respelling names with an 'U' that sounds like a Dutch 'oe' with oe,
'Oeganda' 'Loemoemba', for example. (Wikipedia doesn't)

With respect to Cyrillic names chaos reigns.
It seems that almost every language has its own transliteration scheme,
and often several,

Jan

[Dingbat]

On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 7:15:07 PM UTC+5:30, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2016-01-13, Dingbat wrote:
>
> > It seems less likely that Cyrillic users would mispronounce his name
> > coz they'd respell it in Cyrillic such as to render something close
> > to his pronunciation. Does Europe have room for two Latin spellings
> > of a name? For example, can this person have an English spelling
> > Jeroon Deisselbloom in addition to the Dutch/ Flemish spelling?
>
> Someone told me a few years ago he'd encountered (more than once) math
> texts translated from Russian by people who weren't familiar with the
> history of mathematics in English; they referred to "Gilbert's
> Problems".
>

The Russians could spell it with the Cyrillic letter that looks like English <X>, couldn't they?

[Jerry Friedman]

On 1/13/16 6:31 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2016-01-13, Dingbat wrote:
>
>> It seems less likely that Cyrillic users would mispronounce his name
>> coz they'd respell it in Cyrillic such as to render something close
>> to his pronunciation. Does Europe have room for two Latin spellings
>> of a name? For example, can this person have an English spelling
>> Jeroon Deisselbloom in addition to the Dutch/ Flemish spelling?
>
> Someone told me a few years ago he'd encountered (more than once) math
> texts translated from Russian by people who weren't familiar with the
> history of mathematics in English; they referred to "Gilbert's
> Problems".

It's normal in Russian to use the "g" letter to render foreign "h".
"Hero" is "geroi", "hypnotism" is "gipnotizm", etc. I think there are
etymological reasons for that; I have a vague memory that related words
are pronounced with /h/ in other Slavic languages.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On 1/13/16 3:28 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Isabelle C <isab...@lewanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Le 12/01/2016 15:23, Dingbat a écrit :
>>> On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 at 11:53:11 AM UTC+5:30, Isabelle C wrote:
>>>> Le 11/01/2016 23:57, Jack Campin a écrit :
>>>> [...]
>>>>> Another French composer with a surprising consonant: Jean Francaix
>>>>> (with an "x" as in English). I think his origins were from the
>>>>> same area.
>>>>
>>>> Jean Françaix's name is pronounced without the "x" in French.
>>>
>>> Why is the <x> pronounced in Dupleix and Aix [la Chapelle]?
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POSReoW07FU
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G0Tw1fRhoE
>>
>> No easy answer, I'm afraid. That's just the way it is.
>>
>> Names, whether they are place-names, family names, first names, follow
>> their own rules, depending on family tradition, regional pronunciations
>> and so on.
>>
>> A famous name in France, and probably elsewhere, is that of of Louis de
>> Broglie, which is pronounced as a Frenchified version of the Italian
>> name, [d?b??j], or even more Frenchified, as if it was spelled "de Breuil".
>
> He is a bit forgotten, outside France, I'm afraid.

A bit, but he's in the textbooks I use.

> He didn't contribute much to the quantum revolution,
> except for the 'De Broglie wavelength' named after him.
> Wavelegth by itself isn't used very much anymore,
> most of the time people use the inverse, called the wave vector,
> since that relates directly to momentum.
> (just like the frequenc being more important than the period)
>
> I was taught long ago that the 'Broglie' part has one sylable,
> and should be pronounced as if spelled Breuil.

I read that somewhere. I do my best to pronounce that for my students
and then tell them they can say "Broy"

>> The same phenomenon occurs in English, doesn't it, regarding names ?
>
> The English are famous for their:
> 'we are the English, we don't care, we'll pronounce it our way'
> attitude. (Grave Lines excepted, as discussed previousthread)

Also Spanish speakers, and I've seen transcriptions of Chinese and
Japanese versions of foreign names, which reveal the same attitude.

> The French had something of that too,
> but I think attitudes are slowly changing.
> I have heard some genuine attempts
> at a more or less correct pronunciation
> of those horrible Dutch or Flemish names.
> In sports reporting for example, or in politics.
> (like Jeroen Dijsselbloem)

...

How well do the French, or for that matter the Dutch, do with Xi Jinping
or Hwang Ho?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

Good to see you back. I was thinking of you just now when I was posting
about Russian /g/ and English /h/.

Not to discuss what "proper Spanish" is, I believe you're right that in
much of Spain it would be "-eth", but in the rest of the
Spanish-speaking world the "z" would be /s/, /h/, or silent. But I
don't think the name "Boulez" has anything to do with Spanish.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Adam Funk]

I don't see why not, but apparently they don't (I see Jerry
corroborating this, which is good, because I know fairly little about
Russian). Anyway, if they did that, what would they have left for
"ch" in German names? ;-)


--
"It is the role of librarians to keep government running in difficult
times," replied Dramoren. "Librarians are the last line of defence
against chaos." (McMullen 2001)

[Adam Funk]

Thanks for corroborating that.


--
War is God's way of teaching Americans geography.
--- Ambrose Bierce

[J. J. Lodder]

Fairly well, I would guess, for the Dutch.
Their TV news really makes an effort to get it right,
the rest follows their lead,

Jan

[Jerry Friedman]

On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 2:09:01 AM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 2016-Jan-13 15:54, Robert Bannister wrote:

...

> > I learnt Aix (en Provence) as "eks", but Aix la Chapelle was "ess" - not
> > sure where that pronunciation came from. Then we have place names like
> > Chamonix with an X in the place itself but silent in Paris.
>
> Then you have Bruxelles, where the X is pronounced in Paris but not in
> Brussels.

Like "Bruelles"? Or is the X pronounced in different ways? I'm pretty
sure that in French class we learned to pronounce it with a /z/.

--
Jerry Friedman

[David Kleinecke]

On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 2:29:01 AM UTC-8, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> And now quite off-topic: I like to turn on the Tour de France
> live reporting, not for the sport,
> but because it is great video wallpaper,
> with magnificent helicopter views of French countryside,
> (all those sunflowers)
> and motard shots of villages they pass through.
> Inevitably you get some names too,
> if you don't turn of the sound completely.

I watch bicycle racing for the same reason. I could care less about
the race itself. I like the countryside and even the urban views. Not
just the Tour de France. The Tour de whatever it was in China was
especially interesting.

Alas the channel where races were on all the time has vanished.

[Robert Bannister]

On 13/01/2016 11:56 pm, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 1/12/16 9:49 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 12/01/2016 3:44 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2016-01-11 19:19:50 +0000, Micky said:
>>>
>>>> Why is Pierre Boulez (French: [pj?? bu.l??z] 's name pronounced with a
>>>> Z on the end? He was born in France and iiuc final z's in French are
>>>> silent.
>>>
>>> There was a discussion of this yesterday on fr.lettres.langue.anglaise
>>> from which I gather that the pronunciation with [z] at the end is
>>> regarded as an English pronunciation. If so, this wouldn't be the first
>>> example of a name pronounced differently in English from the way it's
>>> pronounced in its original language.
>>>
>>>
>> Could it not be Spanish dialect? I'm assuming proper Spanish would have
>> -eth.
>
> Good to see you back.

Holiday in Adelaide where my sister, three nieces and various
great-nephew/nieces are, followed by computer breakdown which is not yet
fully solved.

I was thinking of you just now when I was posting
> about Russian /g/ and English /h/.
>
> Not to discuss what "proper Spanish" is, I believe you're right that in
> much of Spain it would be "-eth", but in the rest of the
> Spanish-speaking world the "z" would be /s/, /h/, or silent. But I
> don't think the name "Boulez" has anything to do with Spanish.
>

Another theory bites the dust.
--
Robert B.

[Mark Brader]

Peter Moylan:

> > Then you have Bruxelles, where the X is pronounced in Paris but not in
> > Brussels.

Jerry Friedman:

> Like "Bruelles"? Or is the X pronounced in different ways? I'm pretty
> sure that in French class we learned to pronounce it with a /z/.

The pronunciation I know is with an /s/: Bryoo-SELL. I haven't noticed
a difference between France and Belgium, but I haven't heard it pronounced
all that many times. When I'm in Europe I'm more likely to be the one
saying the names of cities.
--
Mark Brader, Short words good; sesquipedalian verbalizations undesirable
Toronto, m...@vex.net -- after George Orwell

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Mark Brader]

Jerry Friedman:

> It's normal in Russian to use the "g" letter to render foreign "h".
> "Hero" is "geroi", "hypnotism" is "gipnotizm", etc. I think there are

> etymological reasons for that...

Similarly, if you saw the games from Russia during the 1972 series,
you'll've noticed that Paul Henderson's name was transliterated with
the equivalent of G when it showed up onscreen. I was just learning
a bit of Russian at the time, so it came strongly to my attention.

On the other hand, Harpo Marx once said that his name in Russian was
Exapno Mapcase. Obviously that meant the letters that look like
XAP#O MAPKC where # is a capital pi, so for Harpo they did use their
KH letter and not their G.
--
Mark Brader | "You have seen this incident, based on sworn
Toronto | testimony. Can you prove that it didn't happen?"
m...@vex.net | -- Ed Wood, Plan 9 from Outer Space

[Mark Brader]

Adam Funk:

> Someone told me a few years ago he'd encountered (more than once) math
> texts translated from Russian by people who weren't familiar with the
> history of mathematics in English; they referred to "Gilbert's
> Problems".

Maybe it was Godel-undecidable whether the name was Gilbert or Hilbert?
--
Mark Brader | "But how do you figure out whether the programmer
Toronto | knew what he was doing when you find his code
m...@vex.net | after he's gone?" -- Roger Critchlow

[James Hogg]

Mark Brader wrote:
> Jerry Friedman:
>> It's normal in Russian to use the "g" letter to render foreign "h".
>> "Hero" is "geroi", "hypnotism" is "gipnotizm", etc. I think there are
>> etymological reasons for that...
>
> Similarly, if you saw the games from Russia during the 1972 series,
> you'll've noticed that Paul Henderson's name was transliterated with
> the equivalent of G when it showed up onscreen. I was just learning
> a bit of Russian at the time, so it came strongly to my attention.
>
> On the other hand, Harpo Marx once said that his name in Russian was
> Exapno Mapcase. Obviously that meant the letters that look like
> XAP#O MAPKC where # is a capital pi, so for Harpo they did use their
> KH letter and not their G.

I have a Russian map of Britain where Hull has two forms for its name:
Гулль and Халл, i.e. Gull' and Khall.

--
James

[Peter Moylan]

In Belgium it's [bry sEl].
In France it's [bry ksEl].

The Belgians do have a [ks] in "Aix", except that they're more likely to
call it Aken because it's adjacent to the Flemish-speaking part of the
country.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Jan-14 19:17, Mark Brader wrote:
> Adam Funk:
>> Someone told me a few years ago he'd encountered (more than once) math
>> texts translated from Russian by people who weren't familiar with the
>> history of mathematics in English; they referred to "Gilbert's
>> Problems".
>
> Maybe it was Godel-undecidable whether the name was Gilbert or Hilbert?

Was Hilbert and Sullivan ever translated into Russian?

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Jan-14 01:09, Jack Campin wrote:
>> Does Europe have room for two Latin spellings of a name? For
>> example, can this person have an English spelling Jeroon
>> Deisselbloom in addition to the Dutch/ Flemish spelling?
>
> That's commonly done in both Scottish and Irish Gaelic.
> Somhairle mac Gill-Eain = Sorley MacLean.

There's an Irish linguist, now retired, called Séamus Ó Maoláin. I've
had occasion to write to him about family history. (He's from the same
part of Kilkenny as my own Ó Maoláin ancestors.) It turned out that he
signs as "Jim".

A few hundred years ago, it was normal for scholars to use their native
name socially, but their Latin name professionally.

[Isabelle C]

Le 14/01/2016 11:40, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> On 2016-Jan-14 07:39, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 2:09:01 AM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 2016-Jan-13 15:54, Robert Bannister wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>>> I learnt Aix (en Provence) as "eks", but Aix la Chapelle was "ess" - not
>>>> sure where that pronunciation came from. Then we have place names like
>>>> Chamonix with an X in the place itself but silent in Paris.
>>>
>>> Then you have Bruxelles, where the X is pronounced in Paris but not in
>>> Brussels.
>>
>> Like "Bruelles"? Or is the X pronounced in different ways? I'm pretty
>> sure that in French class we learned to pronounce it with a /z/.
>
> In Belgium it's [bry sEl].
> In France it's [bry ksEl].

I wouldn't be so categorical.
I pronounce it [bry sEl] and so do all the people I know. Bruxelles is
very often in the news and all reporters and journalists I've heard on
French radio and television pronounce it that way too.

That's not to say that the other pronounciation is never heard in
France. The issue is frequently tackled in usage guides, which always
recommend the [bry sEl] and disparage the other one.

Back in the 18th century Diderot and d'Alembert already mentioned the
usual pronunciation in their Encyclopédie:

http://artflsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/extras/encpageturn.pl?V17/ENC_17-647.jpeg

They even say that "Bruxelles" is now spelt "Brusselles" to reflect the
pronunciation. I must add that the Encyclopédie doesn't follow that
usage in its own article about the town.

> The Belgians do have a [ks] in "Aix", except that they're more likely to
> call it Aken because it's adjacent to the Flemish-speaking part of the
> country.
>


--

Isabelle

[charles]

In article <n77us3$nmg$1...@dont-email.me>,

That would probably because educated foreigners could understand Latin.
One of my ancestors (Johannes Spes - in Latin) used to correspond with Carl
Linnaeus in Latin, since it was their common) language.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[Jerry Friedman]

On 1/14/16 4:23 AM, Isabelle C wrote:
> Le 14/01/2016 11:40, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>> On 2016-Jan-14 07:39, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 2:09:01 AM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> On 2016-Jan-13 15:54, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>> I learnt Aix (en Provence) as "eks", but Aix la Chapelle was "ess" - not
>>>>> sure where that pronunciation came from. Then we have place names like
>>>>> Chamonix with an X in the place itself but silent in Paris.
>>>>
>>>> Then you have Bruxelles, where the X is pronounced in Paris but not in
>>>> Brussels.
>>>
>>> Like "Bruelles"? Or is the X pronounced in different ways? I'm pretty
>>> sure that in French class we learned to pronounce it with a /z/.
>>
>> In Belgium it's [bry sEl].
>> In France it's [bry ksEl].
>
> I wouldn't be so categorical.
> I pronounce it [bry sEl] and so do all the people I know. Bruxelles is
> very often in the news and all reporters and journalists I've heard on
> French radio and television pronounce it that way too.
>
> That's not to say that the other pronounciation is never heard in
> France. The issue is frequently tackled in usage guides, which always
> recommend the [bry sEl] and disparage the other one.

...

Thanks, all. I hope I'm remembering wrong about what I was taught.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-01-13 05:54:57 +0100, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> said:

> On 12/01/2016 10:28 am, Dingbat wrote:
>> On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 at 4:27:04 AM UTC+5:30, Jack Campin

>> wrote:
>>>>> Why is Pierre Boulez's name pronounced with a Z on the end?
>>>> He was born in Montbrison, in an area of the (originally)
>>>> Francoprovencal-speaking Forez region, where the "z" is
>>>> frequently pronounced.
>>>

>>> Another French composer with a surprising consonant: Jean Francaix
>>> (with an "x" as in English).
>>>
>>> I think his origins were from the same area.
>>>

>> Is this a conservative pronunciation? That is, was it pronounced that
>> way in French too once? It's how <x> sounds in French pronunciation
>> of <Aix la Chapelle>.
>

> I learnt Aix (en Provence) as "eks", but Aix la Chapelle was "ess" -
> not sure where that pronunciation came from. Then we have place names
> like Chamonix with an X in the place itself but silent in Paris.

I wonder if all the inhabitants of Chamonix agree about the [ks]. Just
down the road from there is a place called Les Houches, where the
locals seemed to be evenly divided between those who put a [z] at the
end of Les and those who didn't.

The opposite from your example is Cassis, 25 km from where I sit, which
has a silent final s locally, but [s] when pronounced by chaps from
Paris. (The word for blackcurrant, spelt the same, normally ends with
[s] whoever says it. It is unrelated to the town near here.)


--
athel

[J. J. Lodder]

So your advice is to simply forget about that x
and to pronounce it without, wherever you are?

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

The stabilised video camera was a great invention,
by some unsung genius,

Jan

[Jerry Friedman]

On 1/13/16 12:11 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[French pronunciation of foreign names]

>>> I have heard some genuine attempts
>>> at a more or less correct pronunciation
>>> of those horrible Dutch or Flemish names.
>>> In sports reporting for example, or in politics.
>>> (like Jeroen Dijsselbloem)
>> ...
>>
>> How well do the French, or for that matter the Dutch, do with Xi Jinping
>> or Hwang Ho?
>
> Fairly well, I would guess, for the Dutch.
> Their TV news really makes an effort to get it right,
> the rest follows their lead,

...

I'll take your word for it, unless I decide to find some Dutch newscasts
on YouTube and listen to Chinese pronunciations of the names on forvo.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-01-13 16:49:18 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> said:

> On 2016-01-13, Dingbat wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 7:15:07 PM UTC+5:30, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> On 2016-01-13, Dingbat wrote:
>>>
>>>> It seems less likely that Cyrillic users would mispronounce his name
>>>> coz they'd respell it in Cyrillic such as to render something close
>>>> to his pronunciation. Does Europe have room for two Latin spellings
>>>> of a name? For example, can this person have an English spelling
>>>> Jeroon Deisselbloom in addition to the Dutch/ Flemish spelling?
>>>
>>> Someone told me a few years ago he'd encountered (more than once) math
>>> texts translated from Russian by people who weren't familiar with the
>>> history of mathematics in English; they referred to "Gilbert's
>>> Problems".
>>>
>> The Russians could spell it with the Cyrillic letter that looks like
>> English <X>, couldn't they?
>
> I don't see why not, but apparently they don't (I see Jerry
> corroborating this, which is good, because I know fairly little about
> Russian). Anyway, if they did that, what would they have left for
> "ch" in German names? ;-)

I was told, and it seems to be borne out by the few facts that I know,
that the Russian belief that h in Western European languages
corresponds to г in theirs derives from earlier experience with Czech,
where the correspondence works well:

Czech kniha -> Russian книга
Czech Praha -> Russian Прага
Czech noha -> Russian нога

and many others.


--
athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Specifically Czech, as I was saying before I saw your post.

Czech hypnotismus -> Russian гипнотизм


--
athel

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Unsung but not unknown.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steadicam

Steadicam is a brand of camera stabilizer mount for motion picture
cameras that mechanically isolates it from the operator's movement.
It allows for a smooth shot, even when moving quickly over an uneven
surface. The Steadicam was invented by cameraman Garrett Brown and
was introduced in 1975.

<lots more information>

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

They sometimes translate them as well, as for example La Reina Isabel.

> and I've seen transcriptions of Chinese and Japanese versions of
> foreign names, which reveal the same attitude.
>
>> The French had something of that too,
>> but I think attitudes are slowly changing.
>> I have heard some genuine attempts
>> at a more or less correct pronunciation
>> of those horrible Dutch or Flemish names.
>> In sports reporting for example, or in politics.
>> (like Jeroen Dijsselbloem)
> ...
>
> How well do the French, or for that matter the Dutch, do with Xi
> Jinping or Hwang Ho?


--

athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-01-13 16:42:26 +0100, Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> said:

> [ ... ]

> How well do the French, or for that matter the Dutch, do with Xi
> Jinping or Hwang Ho?

I don't know about those two, but 25 years ago we were always hearing
about Mireille Gorbachev on the news.


--
athel

[Isabelle C]

Yes, I would say that it's best to pronounce "Bruxelles" as if it was
written "Brusselles", as is standard. If ever you're among a group of
French people who pronounce it with the [ks], then you might wish to
adapt, or not! Nobody will be offended.
>


--
Isabelle

[Isabelle C]

Le 13/01/2016 05:54, Robert Bannister a écrit :
>
> I learnt Aix (en Provence) as "eks", but Aix la Chapelle was "ess" - not
> sure where that pronunciation came from.

I'd say that's not quite the case. Aix-la-Chapelle is with [ks], as is
Aix-en-Provence,mostly, although you might hear [s] or even [ais]
locally from some, for Aix-en-Provence, in accordance with Provençal
pronunciation.

> Then we have place names like
> Chamonix with an X in the place itself but silent in Paris.

Not quite the case either. It's traditionally pronounced without the
final "x" locally. Over the centuries we can find different spellings,
Chamouny, Chamony, Chamouni...

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamonix-Mont-Blanc#Toponymie

The pronunciation without the "x" is standard everywhere now.


--
Isabelle

[James Hogg]

Closer to hand is the same change from g to h in Ukrainian.

--
James

[Peter T. Daniels]

You consider receiving a Technical Achievement Oscar from the Academy of
Motion Picture Arts and Sciences being "unsung"? One of the first commercial
uses of the Steadicam (as it's called) was in the feature film *Wolfen* (1981),
with Albert Finney as a NYC detective on the trail of a werewolf. The wolf's
point of view is represented by the Steadicam.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 10:14:46 AM UTC+2, Mark Brader wrote:
> Jerry Friedman:
> > It's normal in Russian to use the "g" letter to render foreign "h".
> > "Hero" is "geroi", "hypnotism" is "gipnotizm", etc. I think there are
> > etymological reasons for that...

Early on Latin words with h- entered Russian with g- and the
practice practice was continued, but some occassionally
decided that x- (i.e. kh-) was better.

[J. J. Lodder]

This still is a bit surprising, given the etymology.
The original name (which was in Dutch of course)
is generally supposed to have been derived from 'Bruocsella',
which evolved to 'Broekzele', 'Broekzeel'
meaning settlement (zele) near the marsh (broek)
The root 'broek' still exists in a great many Dutch
and Belgian placenames.
'Broekzeel' evolved in Dutch/Flemish Brussel, English Brussels,
French Bruxelles.

So the French who still pronounce the x = ks have it right,
in the sense that they are closer
to the original medieval pronunciation of the name.

Jan

[Robert Bannister]

On 14/01/2016 4:00 pm, Mark Brader wrote:
> Peter Moylan:
>>> Then you have Bruxelles, where the X is pronounced in Paris but not in
>>> Brussels.
>
> Jerry Friedman:
>> Like "Bruelles"? Or is the X pronounced in different ways? I'm pretty
>> sure that in French class we learned to pronounce it with a /z/.
>
> The pronunciation I know is with an /s/: Bryoo-SELL. I haven't noticed
> a difference between France and Belgium, but I haven't heard it pronounced
> all that many times. When I'm in Europe I'm more likely to be the one
> saying the names of cities.
>

Likewise. Always SS, never Z.

--
Robert B.

[Robert Bannister]

Such embarrassment you have saved me, should I ever get to Cassis. I
would have hated being classified as Parisian. I presume the drink
usually has an s.

--
Robert B.

[Robert Bannister]

On 15/01/2016 1:14 am, Isabelle C wrote:
> Le 13/01/2016 05:54, Robert Bannister a écrit :
>>
>> I learnt Aix (en Provence) as "eks", but Aix la Chapelle was "ess" - not
>> sure where that pronunciation came from.
>
> I'd say that's not quite the case. Aix-la-Chapelle is with [ks], as is
> Aix-en-Provence,mostly, although you might hear [s] or even [ais]
> locally from some, for Aix-en-Provence, in accordance with Provençal
> pronunciation.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear: that is a mispronunciation that I picked
up early and I'm not at all sure from where. Anyway, I always call the
place Aachen and have never been in a situation where I had to say it in
French.

>
>> Then we have place names like
>> Chamonix with an X in the place itself but silent in Paris.
>
> Not quite the case either. It's traditionally pronounced without the
> final "x" locally. Over the centuries we can find different spellings,
> Chamouny, Chamony, Chamouni...
>
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamonix-Mont-Blanc#Toponymie
>
> The pronunciation without the "x" is standard everywhere now.
>
>

That is interesting. It is a very long time since I was in Europe.

--
Robert B.

[Dingbat]

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 6:11:43 AM UTC+5:30, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 14/01/2016 11:56 pm, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

Perish the thought. Being Parisian would make you a Perishing* blighter.
* Pun on Parisian

[Ross]

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 1:44:32 PM UTC+13, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 15/01/2016 1:14 am, Isabelle C wrote:
> > Le 13/01/2016 05:54, Robert Bannister a écrit :
> >>
> >> I learnt Aix (en Provence) as "eks", but Aix la Chapelle was "ess" - not
> >> sure where that pronunciation came from.
> >
> > I'd say that's not quite the case. Aix-la-Chapelle is with [ks], as is
> > Aix-en-Provence,mostly, although you might hear [s] or even [ais]
> > locally from some, for Aix-en-Provence, in accordance with Provençal
> > pronunciation.
>
> Perhaps I didn't make it clear: that is a mispronunciation that I picked
> up early and I'm not at all sure from where. Anyway, I always call the
> place Aachen and have never been in a situation where I had to say it in
> French.

We actually heard the name of this place in high school history class,
because by the treaty signed there (1748) the French got Cape Breton
Island (Louisbourg) back from the British, in exchange for returning Madras.
Thus it played a tiny part in Canadian history, relating to a place
at the far distant end of the country. I did not remember any of these
details (just looked them up in Wiki), but I did remember the name of the
place, and I believe "Aix" was pronounced to us as "A", i.e. /ei/.
Probably following somebody's rough idea of which consonants to ignore
in speaking French.

[Will Parsons]

But, is it a survival of the original pronunciation or a more recent
spelling pronunciation?

--
Will

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Yes, you're right. I had forgotten that г is [h] in Ukrainian rather
than [g] (or sometimes [v]) in Russian. Curiously, I had the evidence
in front of my eyes a few hours before I saw your post but failed to
make the connection. I was looking up the town where Nicolas Rashevsky
was born, and saw that it used to be normally transcribed Chernigov
from Russian Чернигов, but now Chernihiv is preferred, from Ukrainian
Чернігів. I don't think I noticed that it has г in both. As it is
Czernihów in Polish that suggests that, at least sometimes, Polish [h]
also corresponds to Russian [g].


--
athel

[Mark Brader]

Robert Bannister:

> Perhaps I didn't make it clear: that is a mispronunciation that I picked
> up early and I'm not at all sure from where. Anyway, I always call the
> place Aachen and have never been in a situation where I had to say it in
> French.

This subthread reminds me... while on vacation 2011, I went to Caen,
to visit their museum of World War II [1]. The letters "aen" do not
usually occur together in French and I had no idea of how to pronounce
the place. And the normal solution of asking the train conductor or
listening for onboard announcements wasn't possible because I was
traveling by car.

So when I stopped for a Coke or something a few minutes before reaching
the place, I asked the shopkeeper in French, "How does one pronounce the
name of the city in that -> direction?"

And he said "Mondeville".


(Well, my fault for not specifying more clearly which city. The actual
pronunciation is the same, or so it seemed to me, as French "quand".)


[1] I don't think I knew about the city's other notable feature of
interest:

http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/msb/twisto/1.jpg
http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/msb/twisto/2.jpg
http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/msb/twisto/3.jpg


The single metal rail provides guidance while the rubber tires
support the vehicle's weight. Weird.

Photos taken 2011-05-18 and reproduced at 1/2 original resolution.
--
Mark Brader That would be the opposite of "non idiotic",
Toronto assuming there's some good word for that.
m...@vex.net --Ken Jennings

[J. J. Lodder]

Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid> wrote:

> On Thursday, 14 Jan 2016 5:20 PM -0500, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Isabelle C <isab...@lewanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> Le 14/01/2016 17:00, J. J. Lodder a écrit :
> >> > Isabelle C <isab...@lewanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Le 14/01/2016 11:40, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> >> >>> On 2016-Jan-14 07:39, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> >> >>>> On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 2:09:01 AM UTC-7, Peter Moylan:

> >> >>>>> On 2016-Jan-13 15:54, Robert Bannister wrote:
> >> >>>> ...
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>>> I learnt Aix (en Provence) as "eks", but Aix la Chapelle was "ess"
> >> >>>>>> - not sure where that pronunciation came from. Then we have place
> >> >>>>>> names like Chamonix with an X in the place itself but silent in
> >> >>>>>> Paris.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Then you have Bruxelles, where the X is pronounced in Paris but
> >> >>>>> not in Brussels.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Like "Bruelles"? Or is the X pronounced in different ways? I'm
> >> >>>> pretty sure that in French class we learned to pronounce it with a
> >> >>>> /z/.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> In Belgium it's [bry sEl].
> >> >>> In France it's [bry ksEl].
> >> >>
> >> >> I wouldn't be so categorical.
> >> >> I pronounce it [bry sEl] and so do all the people I know. Bruxelles is
> >> >> very often in the news and all reporters and journalists I've heard on
> >> >> French radio and television pronounce it that way too.
> >> >>
> >> >> That's not to say that the other pronounciation is never heard in
> >> >> France. The issue is frequently tackled in usage guides, which always
> >> >> recommend the [bry sEl] and disparage the other one.
> >> >>
> >> >> Back in the 18th century Diderot and d'Alembert already mentioned the
> >> >> usual pronunciation in their Encyclopédie:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://artflsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/extras/encpageturn.pl?V17/
> >> >>

> >> >> They even say that "Bruxelles" is now spelt "Brusselles" to reflect the
> >> >> pronunciation. I must add that the Encyclopédie doesn't follow that
> >> >> usage in its own article about the town.
> >> >
> >> > So your advice is to simply forget about that x
> >> > and to pronounce it without, wherever you are?
> >> >
> >> Yes, I would say that it's best to pronounce "Bruxelles" as if it was
> >> written "Brusselles", as is standard. If ever you're among a group of
> >> French people who pronounce it with the [ks], then you might wish to
> >> adapt, or not! Nobody will be offended.
> >
> > This still is a bit surprising, given the etymology.
> > The original name (which was in Dutch of course)
> > is generally supposed to have been derived from 'Bruocsella',
> > which evolved to 'Broekzele', 'Broekzeel'
> > meaning settlement (zele) near the marsh (broek)
> > The root 'broek' still exists in a great many Dutch
> > and Belgian placenames.
> > 'Broekzeel' evolved in Dutch/Flemish Brussel, English Brussels,
> > French Bruxelles.
> >
> > So the French who still pronounce the x = ks have it right,
> > in the sense that they are closer
> > to the original medieval pronunciation of the name.
>
> But, is it a survival of the original pronunciation or a more recent
> spelling pronunciation?

Survival, I would think,
based on Isabelle's find of a French record
of 18th century pronunciation conflict,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:

> This subthread reminds me... while on vacation 2011, I went to Caen,
> to visit their museum of World War II [1]. The letters "aen" do not
> usually occur together in French and I had no idea of how to pronounce
> the place. And the normal solution of asking the train conductor or
> listening for onboard announcements wasn't possible because I was
> traveling by car.
>
> So when I stopped for a Coke or something a few minutes before reaching
> the place, I asked the shopkeeper in French, "How does one pronounce the
> name of the city in that -> direction?"
>
> And he said "Mondeville".
>
>
> (Well, my fault for not specifying more clearly which city. The actual
> pronunciation is the same, or so it seemed to me, as French "quand".)

I did the same for 'Reims' and with better results. (like vin)

> [1] I don't think I knew about the city's other notable feature of
> interest:
>
> http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/msb/twisto/1.jpg
> http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/msb/twisto/2.jpg
> http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/msb/twisto/3.jpg
>
>
> The single metal rail provides guidance while the rubber tires
> support the vehicle's weight. Weird.

Of course not just guidance.
It is the electrical ground connection.

It is a 'trolleybus', in many languages,

Jan

[Adam Funk]

English "Prague" with a silent "ue"!

> Czech noha -> Russian нога
>
> and many others.

Interesting.


--
With the breakdown of the medieval system, the gods of chaos, lunacy,
and bad taste gained ascendancy. --- Ignatius J Reilly

[CDB]

On 14/01/2016 9:16 PM, Ross wrote:
> Robert Bannister wrote:

>> Isabelle C wrote:
>>> Robert Bannister a écrit :

>>>> I learnt Aix (en Provence) as "eks", but Aix la Chapelle was
>>>> "ess" - not sure where that pronunciation came from.

>>> I'd say that's not quite the case. Aix-la-Chapelle is with [ks],
>>> as is Aix-en-Provence,mostly, although you might hear [s] or even
>>> [ais] locally from some, for Aix-en-Provence, in accordance with
>>> Provençal pronunciation.

>> Perhaps I didn't make it clear: that is a mispronunciation that I
>> picked up early and I'm not at all sure from where. Anyway, I
>> always call the place Aachen and have never been in a situation
>> where I had to say it in French.

> We actually heard the name of this place in high school history
> class, because by the treaty signed there (1748) the French got Cape
> Breton Island (Louisbourg) back from the British, in exchange for
> returning Madras. Thus it played a tiny part in Canadian history,
> relating to a place at the far distant end of the country. I did not
> remember any of these details (just looked them up in Wiki), but I
> did remember the name of the place, and I believe "Aix" was
> pronounced to us as "A", i.e. /ei/. Probably following somebody's
> rough idea of which consonants to ignore in speaking French.

It may be an older pronunciation. These changes slow down as you move
away from the centre.

As a child, reading "How They Brought the Good News from Ghent to Aix",
I pronounced the word "aches", [eks], and my father told me the
pronunciation of that town's name was [E]-la-Chappelle. Since he was
francophone by birth and had been educated in French, I suppose there
must have been some who pronounced it that way.

http://www.englishverse.com/poems/how_they_brought_the_good_news_from_ghent_to_aix

[Isabelle C]

Le 15/01/2016 12:19, J. J. Lodder a écrit :
> Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid> wrote:

[...about the way the French pronounce Bruxelles...]

>>>
>>> So the French who still pronounce the x = ks have it right,
>>> in the sense that they are closer
>>> to the original medieval pronunciation of the name.
>>
>> But, is it a survival of the original pronunciation or a more recent
>> spelling pronunciation?
>
> Survival, I would think,

I'd say spelling pronunciation.

> based on Isabelle's find of a French record
> of 18th century pronunciation conflict,

What the 18th-century Encyclopédie mentions is not a conflict between
two pronunciations, but an exception to the rule that "x" between two
vowels is sounded as [ks] when the vowel before the "x" is not an "e".
One of the other exceptions they mention is the word "soixante", which
was then and still is now pronounced with the [s] sound.

The Encyclopédie also reports that as "Bruxelles" is now --well, at the
time they were writing-- spelt "Brusselles", their remark is now of
historical interest only:

"On en exceptoit autrefois les mots Bruxelles, Flexelles, Uxelles, qui
ne font plus exception, parce qu'on les écrit conformément à la
prononciation, Brusselles, Flesselles, Usselles..."


--
Isabelle

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 7:15:06 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:

> > Czech kniha -> Russian книга
> > Czech Praha -> Russian Прага
>
> English "Prague" with a silent "ue"!

<g> used to be like <v> -- it couldn't end a word and be [g], so we have things
like "dialogue" and "prologue," many of which <ue>s AmE has done away with.

[Jack Campin]

> > English "Prague" with a silent "ue"!
> <g> used to be like <v> -- it couldn't end a word and be [g],
> so we have things like "dialogue" and "prologue," many of which
> <ue>s AmE has done away with.

So they had to introduce the pigue and the dogue to America and
go to live in logue cabins before they learned how to spell them?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 10:54:43 AM UTC-5, Jack Campin wrote:

> > > English "Prague" with a silent "ue"!
> > <g> used to be like <v> -- it couldn't end a word and be [g],
> > so we have things like "dialogue" and "prologue," many of which
> > <ue>s AmE has done away with.
>
> So they had to introduce the pigue and the dogue to America and
> go to live in logue cabins before they learned how to spell them?

... the source language has something to do with it ...

[Robert Bannister]

French, innit?

--
Robert B.

[Ross]

On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 2:59:50 AM UTC+13, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 7:15:06 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
>
> > > Czech kniha -> Russian книга
> > > Czech Praha -> Russian Прага
> >
> > English "Prague" with a silent "ue"!
>
> <g> used to be like <v> -- it couldn't end a word and be [g],

If there was such a period, it was OE, when final <g> (after a vowel,
at least) was [j] after front vowels and [ɣ] after back.

so we have things
> like "dialogue" and "prologue," many of which <ue>s AmE has done away with.

Your "so" is the problem here. Words which appear in Middle English
with final [g] do _not_ get spelled with -gue. (Jack has already
given some examples: big, leg, hag, dog, bug, etc.) The -gue spelling
arrives with French imports: vague, vogue, fatigue, fugue, etc.
It's the French to whom we owe "Prague".

AmE could get rid of it with the -logue words because it's preceded
by a short vowel (if you'll pardon the expression). In the other examples
I just mentioned you can't get rid of it because the necessary silent -e
for the vowel quality would cause the <g> to be read as [ʤ].

[Jerry Friedman]

On 1/15/16 4:53 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>
>> This subthread reminds me... while on vacation 2011, I went to Caen,
>> to visit their museum of World War II [1]. The letters "aen" do not
>> usually occur together in French and I had no idea of how to pronounce
>> the place. And the normal solution of asking the train conductor or
>> listening for onboard announcements wasn't possible because I was
>> traveling by car.
>>
>> So when I stopped for a Coke or something a few minutes before reaching
>> the place, I asked the shopkeeper in French, "How does one pronounce the
>> name of the city in that -> direction?"
>>
>> And he said "Mondeville".
>>
>>
>> (Well, my fault for not specifying more clearly which city. The actual
>> pronunciation is the same, or so it seemed to me, as French "quand".)
>
> I did the same for 'Reims' and with better results. (like vin)

...

All this time I thought it rhymed with French "mince".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Pierre Jelenc]

In article <n7cl25$89m$2...@news.albasani.net>,

It does; the "s" is always pronounced.

Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org

[Snidely]

On Thursday, Dingbat yelped out that:

General Pershing returned to his ranch in Wyoming a long time ago.

Nearly a hundred years ago.

/dps

--
"That's a good sort of hectic, innit?"

" Very much so, and I'd recommend the haggis wontons."
-njm

[J. J. Lodder]

Correct, sorry if I was misleading.
The 'ei' in Reims is as the 'i' in 'vin'.
The 's' is not silent,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

I may have misunderstood, but it seemed to me
that the need to explain what the 'correct' pronunciation was
implied that the other one still existed,

Jan

[Jerry Friedman]

Got it. Thanks to you and Pierre.

--
Jerry Friedman

[J. J. Lodder]

Try to make it as nasal as you can.
'Since' from most English speakers is too mild,
at least in what I have heard,

Jan

[Adam Funk]

Bastardized French, after William the Bastard.


--
FORTRAN: You shoot yourself in each toe, iteratively, until you run
out of toes, then you read in the next foot and repeat. If you run out
of bullets, you continue anyway because you have no exception-handling
facility.

[Will Parsons]

No, that's unwarranted. It's merely assuring the readers that
although X typically is sounded CS, there are exceptions, as
described.

--
Will

[Traddict]

"James Hogg" <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> a écrit dans le message de groupe de
discussion : n75eaq$5q7$1...@dont-email.me...
> Adam Funk wrote:

>> On 2016-01-13, Jack Campin wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> Why is Pierre Boulez's name pronounced with a Z on the end?
>>>>>> He was born in Montbrison, in an area of the (originally)
>>>>>> Francoprovencal-speaking Forez region, where the "z" is
>>>>>> frequently pronounced.
>>>>> Another French composer with a surprising consonant: Jean Francaix
>>>>> (with an "x" as in English).
>>>>> I think his origins were from the same area.
>>>> Is this a conservative pronunciation? That is, was it pronounced that
>>>> way in French too once? It's how <x> sounds in French pronunciation
>>>> of <Aix la Chapelle>.

>>> The language that pronunciation comes from is neither French nor
>>> English.
>>
>> There's no /ks/ in the German name.
>>
>> (AIUI, "Aix-en-Provence" has a different etymology & is a
>> coincidence.)
>
> Aren't they both ultimately from Latin "aqua"?

Yes, and that origin is made obvious in the name of another French town,
"Aix-les-Bains", which is a thermal spa.

Then there are places
> where it has becomes "Aigues".
>
> --
> James

[J. J. Lodder]

James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> wrote:

> Adam Funk wrote:
> > On 2016-01-13, Jack Campin wrote:
> >
> >>>>>> Why is Pierre Boulez's name pronounced with a Z on the end?
> >>>>> He was born in Montbrison, in an area of the (originally)
> >>>>> Francoprovencal-speaking Forez region, where the "z" is
> >>>>> frequently pronounced.
> >>>> Another French composer with a surprising consonant: Jean Francaix
> >>>> (with an "x" as in English).
> >>>> I think his origins were from the same area.
> >>> Is this a conservative pronunciation? That is, was it pronounced that
> >>> way in French too once? It's how <x> sounds in French pronunciation
> >>> of <Aix la Chapelle>.
> >> The language that pronunciation comes from is neither French nor English.
> >
> > There's no /ks/ in the German name.
> >
> > (AIUI, "Aix-en-Provence" has a different etymology & is a
> > coincidence.)
>

> Aren't they both ultimately from Latin "aqua"? Then there are places

> where it has becomes "Aigues".

Yes, but they are dead, mostly,

Jan

[James Hogg]

J. J. Lodder wrote:

> James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
>> Aren't they both ultimately from Latin "aqua"? Then there are places
>> where it has becomes "Aigues".
>
> Yes, but they are dead, mostly,

The famous one is dead, but Wikipedia lists a load of other places with
a wide range of adjectives:
Belle, Bonne, Blanque, Nère, Brun, Tinte, Longue, Tortes, Grosses,
Folle, Vertes, Vieille, and even Vives.

--
James

[J. J. Lodder]

I know of course, and even the dead one
is very much alive in the tourist season,

Jan

[Snidely]

J. J. Lodder formulated the question :

All WP tells /me/ is that there are 2 rivers from alpine regions ("",
and "Blanche"), and 1 city in Spain.

/dps

--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-01-19 18:52:15 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
>
>> [ … ]

>> Aren't they both ultimately from Latin "aqua"? Then there are places
>> where it has becomes "Aigues".
>
> Yes, but they are dead, mostly,

Well, there is Aigues-Vives as well as Aigues-Mortes.

--
athel

[Oliver Cromm]

* J. J. Lodder:

> Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>
>> [1] I don't think I knew about the city's other notable feature of
>> interest:
>>
>> http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/msb/twisto/1.jpg
>> http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/msb/twisto/2.jpg
>> http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/msb/twisto/3.jpg
>>
>> The single metal rail provides guidance while the rubber tires
>> support the vehicle's weight. Weird.
>
> Of course not just guidance.
> It is the electrical ground connection.
>
> It is a 'trolleybus', in many languages,

Not for sticklers:

| The use of pantographs for current collection means the Caen
| vehicles cannot move laterally away from the overhead wire when
| operating in electric mode, and for this reason they are not
| considered to be trolleybuses, under the English language
| meaning of that word,

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caen_Guided_Light_Transit>

--
"Bother", said the Borg, as they assimilated Pooh.

[J. J. Lodder]

That must be a mistake.
It is the ground conductor that locks them on track.
Like a tramway.
The pantograph does allow sideways movement.

So if you are a stickler for one particular set of definitions
the Caen trolleybusses are neither.

Since they are obviously more like trolleybusses
than like tramway cars I'll call them trolleybusses.
(have you ever seen a tramway car start up its diesel
to leave its tracks to go home?)

There is no English word that fits them better,

Jan

[Oliver Cromm]

* J. J. Lodder:

> Oliver Cromm <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>> * J. J. Lodder:
>>
>>> Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [1] I don't think I knew about the city's other notable feature of
>>>> interest:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/msb/twisto/1.jpg
>>>> http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/msb/twisto/2.jpg
>>>> http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/msb/twisto/3.jpg
>>>>
>>>> The single metal rail provides guidance while the rubber tires
>>>> support the vehicle's weight. Weird.
>>>
>>> Of course not just guidance.
>>> It is the electrical ground connection.
>>>
>>> It is a 'trolleybus', in many languages,
>>
>> Not for sticklers:
>>
>>| The use of pantographs for current collection means the Caen
>>| vehicles cannot move laterally away from the overhead wire when
>>| operating in electric mode, and for this reason they are not
>>| considered to be trolleybuses, under the English language
>>| meaning of that word,
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caen_Guided_Light_Transit>
>
> That must be a mistake.
> It is the ground conductor that locks them on track.
> Like a tramway.
> The pantograph does allow sideways movement.

Well ... very limited. Typical trolleybuses can use the next lane
of the street if necessary.

> So if you are a stickler for one particular set of definitions
> the Caen trolleybusses are neither.
>
> Since they are obviously more like trolleybusses
> than like tramway cars I'll call them trolleybusses.

That depends on which criteria you use for similarity. Most
importantly, they don't have a trolley pole, but a pantograph
instead, so if they are trolleybuses, they are non-trolley
trolleybuses. I won't exclude it on principle, but it's a stretch.

--
If you kill one person, you go to jail; if you kill 20, you go
to an institution for the insane; if you kill 20,000, you get
political asylum. -- Reed Brody, special counsel
for prosecutions at Human Rights Watch

[charles]

In article <1alneoj2...@mid.crommatograph.info>,

They are obviously "pantobuses".

Oh, no, they're not

Oh, yes, they are

British readers should understand this.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[RH Draney]

On 1/20/2016 3:50 PM, charles wrote:
> In article <1alneoj2...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
> Oliver Cromm <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> * J. J. Lodder:
>>>

>>> Since they are obviously more like trolleybusses
>>> than like tramway cars I'll call them trolleybusses.
>
>> That depends on which criteria you use for similarity. Most
>> importantly, they don't have a trolley pole, but a pantograph
>> instead, so if they are trolleybuses, they are non-trolley
>> trolleybuses. I won't exclude it on principle, but it's a stretch.
>
> They are obviously "pantobuses".
>
> Oh, no, they're not
>
> Oh, yes, they are
>
> British readers should understand this.

Look out, he's behind you!...r