the fat lady
Nienke van Engeldorp Gastelaars
sings (whistles?)" means? The only thing I know is that is has to do with
betting.
Nienke
Alex Chernavsky
jan sand
The first time I saw it was in one of the J.D. Salinger novels,
perhaps "Franny and Zooey" and I have a hunch it means that a
situation is not over until people in general have some consensus
about it. But I am very unsure about that interpretation.
Jan Sand
Tom Deveson
>The first time I saw it was in one of the J.D. Salinger novels,
>perhaps "Franny and Zooey"
That Fat Lady was rather different. In *Zooey*, she comes from Seymour's
advice to his younger sister Fanny: "He told me to be funny for the Fat
Lady." He also told Zooey to shine his shoes for the Fat Lady.
And on the next page we learn:
"...don't you know who the Fat Lady really is?...Ah, buddy. Ah, buddy.
It's Christ Himself. Christ Himself, buddy."
The Fat Lady who has to sing before it's all over is a different Fat
Lady altogether.
Tom
--
Tom Deveson
Schainbaum, Robert
Well, as you know, opera singers have a reputation for being fat.
There's an opera metaphor at work here. An opera and, by metaphorical
extension, a particular event that depends on some crucial act or event,
isn't over until the fat lady sings.
/r
Harvey V
<3ab5322...@news.mindspring.com>:
David Wilton, at http://www.uselessknowledge.com/word/fat.shtml
claims that the phrase is precisely dateable to 1976. I have no idea how
reliable the site is in terms of its sources, though.
The whole quote from that page is:
Fat Lady Sings
This is one of the few phrases of which we know the exact origin.
First, the original and full phrase is: The opera ain't over until
the fat lady sings. The phrase was first used in column by
sportswriter Dan Cook in 1976. Cook's column, which appeared in the
San Antonio News-Express, was about the San Antonio Spurs, a
professional basketball team.
Cook, who also worked as a broadcaster for KENS-TV in San Antonio,
repeated the phrase in April 1978 when the Spurs were down three
games to one in the playoffs against the Washington Bullets. It
turned out that Cook was right, the fat lady had not yet sung for
the Spurs, but she was waiting in the wings. The Spurs won the next
game but lost game six and the series. Dick Motta, the Bullets'
coach heard Cook's broadcast and used the phrase himself to caution
against overconfidence in the Bullets upcoming series with the
Philadelphia 76ers. Motta was widely quoted and the phrase entered
the sporting vernacular.
"Word and Phrase Origins" are copyrighted by David Wilton
Harvey
Alex Chernavsky
> In [J. D. Salinger's] *Zooey*, [the fat lady] comes from Seymour's
> advice to his younger sister Fanny: "He told me to be funny for the
> Fat Lady." He also told Zooey to shine his shoes for the Fat Lady.
>
> And on the next page we learn:
>
> "...don't you know who the Fat Lady really is?...Ah, buddy. Ah,
> buddy. It's Christ Himself. Christ Himself, buddy."
I've never really understood what Salinger was trying to say with that Fat
Lady / Jesus stuff. In fact, I'm astounded that the same person wrote both
_Catcher in the Rye_ (my favorite novel) and _Franny and Zooey_ (one of my
least favorite books). The style is so different that I would have sworn
that two different authors wrote those books. _Catcher_ is funny,
insightful, and fairly straightforward. _Franny and Zooey_ is pretentious,
boring, and (to me) incomprehensible.
--
Alex Chernavsky
masakim
It means: "The outcome of any cotest isn't known until the final results are
in" or, simply, "Don't count your chickens before they are hatched."
For your information:
Church ain't out till the fat lady sings. (F.R. & C.R. Smith, _Words and
Sayings_, 1976)
One day three years ago, Ralph Carpenter, who was then Texas Tech's sports
information director, declared to the press box contingent in Austin, "The
rodeo ain't over till the bull riders ride." Stirred to top that deep
insight, San Antonio sports editor Dan Cook countered with, "The opera ain't
over till the fat lady sings." (_Washington Post_, 13 June 1978)
Church is not out 'til they sing. Rec. dist.: Okla.
The game's not over until the last man strikes out. Rec. dist.: Ind., Ky.,
Ohio, Tenn. (_A Dictionary of American Proverbs_, 1992)
Regards
masakim
Robert Lieblich
That Fat Lady is an opera singer. She sings, the opera ends.
Actually, most Fat Ladies are sopranos who sing continually through
the entire opera. What they do to end the opera, most of the time,
is die. Victor Borge used to do an excellent parody of opera in
which, at the end, the soprano, a massive lady, decides to commit
suicide, walks alone into her family's ancestral forest, and stabs
herself between her two big trees.
Hey, don't blame me, I'm just quoting.
N.Mitchum
> Can anyone tell me what the expression "It isn't over until the fat lady
> sings (whistles?)" means? The only thing I know is that is has to do with
> betting.
"It ain't over till the fat lady sings" is a phrase attributed to
Yankee catcher Yogi Berra, of American baseball fame. It's based
on his perception that an opera isn't over until the soprano,
typically fat, sings her aria at the end.
He also said something like "The game isn't over until it's over,"
meaning pretty much the same thing: don't stop trying before the
game is over; no matter how bad things look, there's always a
chance of winning as long as you're still playing.
----NM
satchi
I wanted to reply but was a bit nervous giving a 'serious' opinion
but...I wonder if it has to do with Burlesque, and that the variety
show wasn't over until the Fat lady Sang. Just a guess.
Satchi
http://www.bombhumor.com
satchi
I always felt that Salinger had ONE good novel in him: Catcher in the
Rye and that he should have quit while he was ahead.
Just my opinion.
Satchi
http://www.bombhumr.com
Jitze Couperus
<nien...@hi.nl> wrote:
Oddly enough, my Dad used a Friesian expression which
comes pretty close. I have no idea how it would be
spelled in Friesian, but the Dutch equivalent would
be something like "Kerk is pas uit als de dikke tante
haar zangboek neer legt". Roughly translated
"Church is only finished when the fat lady puts
her hymnal down". The metaphoric meaning was
also different as I remember it - more along the lines
of "the job ain't finished until you've tidied up afterwards".
Jitze
W. Wesley Groleau
> I always felt that Salinger had ONE good novel in him: Catcher in the
> Rye and that he should have quit while he was ahead.
Ah, but don't you know the opportunist publishing rule?
When a book sells, everything else the author wrote before or
after comes out with "By the author of ...." in bigger letters
than the current title.
--
Wes Groleau
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau/
The Avocado Avenger
> This is one of the few phrases of which we know the exact origin.
> First, the original and full phrase is: The opera ain't over until
> the fat lady sings. The phrase was first used in column by
> sportswriter Dan Cook in 1976.
It relies on the stereotype of opera singers being fat. You know, like
the large bounteous woman who is dressed in full Viking regalia, including
horned helmets and two round metal plates over the breasts.
Stacia * The Avocado Avenger * Life is a tale told by an idiot;
http://www.io.com/~stacia/ * Full of sound and fury,
There is no guacamole anywhere. * Signifying nothing.
Tom Deveson
>Victor Borge used to do an excellent parody of opera in
>which, at the end, the soprano, a massive lady, decides to commit
>suicide, walks alone into her family's ancestral forest, and stabs
>herself between her two big trees.
Did he also describe the occasion, at the end of a production of
*Tosca*, when, after jumping off the battlements of Castel Sant'Angelo,
she bounced back?
Tom
--
Tom Deveson
Tom Deveson
>I've never really understood what Salinger was trying to say with that Fat
>Lady / Jesus stuff.
I think he's trying, in Ian Hamilton's phrase, "to rewrite Ramakrishna's
gospel for the 1950s."
Leslie Fiedler (in *Waiting For The End*) called Buddy Glass [the
fictional source of the line about the Fat Lady] "that unspeakably false
guru" with '"his pop-culture dogma".
Zooey's excuse, if one were needed, might be that he's only doing what
Buddy made him do, and Buddy only did what Seymour made him do, and
Seymour only did what Salinger made him do. Such is fiction, some of it.
Tom
--
Tom Deveson
Steve Hayes
_Franny and Zooey_ is infinite regress, about someone reading a book about
someone reading a book.
It's some time since I read the book and I don't remember that part, but from
the context I would assume that it is saying that the aphorism "It isn't over
till the fat lady sings" refers to the second coming of Christ.
As I said, it may be folk etymology, but I have always assumed that "the fat
lady" was derived from the leading soprano who sang her last aria as she was
dying in the final scene of the opera. After that it's curtains for everyone.
I could be wrong on both counts though - better read _Franny and Zooey_ again.
Steve Hayes
http://www.suite101.com/myhome.cfm/methodius
Steve Hayes
<nien...@hi.nl> wrote:
I've always assumed that it had something to do with opera, and the leading
soprano would sing her last aria before being killed or killing herself, which
is followed by the curtain dropping.
But I don't really know - it was just an assumption on my part.
In cricket, of course, it isn't over till the fat boy spins.
Steve Hayes
http://www.suite101.com/myhome.cfm/methodius
Apteryx
news:Qm9t6.268936$o91.36...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
The suggestion that it may derive from church singing is interesting. I
had always assumed it related to opera, but always thought it mistaken
in its assumption that operas tend to end with a soprano aria. Offhand
I can only think of Tristan und Isolde and Gotterdamerung where that
happens. Even in Gotterdammerung there are 10 minutes of orchestral
music after Brunnhilda's aria, and one line from another character
(somewhat belated advice from Hagen to the audience to stay away from
"The Ring").
--
Apteryx
Apteryx
<clip>
> In cricket, of course, it isn't over till the fat boy spins.
>
What if Shane Warne isn't playing? :)
--
Apteryx
satchi
"W. Wesley Groleau" wrote:
>
> > I always felt that Salinger had ONE good novel in him: Catcher in the
> > Rye and that he should have quit while he was ahead.
>
> Ah, but don't you know the opportunist publishing rule?
>
> When a book sells, everything else the author wrote before or
> after comes out with "By the author of ...." in bigger letters
> than the current title.
>
Ah, for the days of Maxwell Perkins.
satchi
http://www.bombhumor.com
Donna Richoux
Now that's really interesting. I remember asking about one of these
sports announcer expressions (this one, or maybe "the catbird seat")
whether it couldn't be an old down-home country-boy oral-tradition sort
of thing. Some of these colorful types have a big hoard of funny sayings
from their youth to draw on. If this went back to the "old country"...
Jitze, what year was your father born? When did he leave the
Netherlands?
I still say it should be possible to reach that sportswriter (then San
Antonio sports editor Dan Cook) and find out if he invented the phrase
or just used it. Is he still around, anyone know?
(When I searched my archive of old posts, I found three where I said, "I
can't believe this isn't in the FAQ yet, we must get it several times a
year." Well, ditto.)
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Joe Manfre
>>On Sun, 18 Mar 2001 21:30:50 +0100, "Nienke van Engeldorp Gastelaars"
>><nien...@hi.nl> wrote:
>>
>>>Can anyone tell me what the expression "It isn't over until the fat
>>>lady sings (whistles?)" means? The only thing I know is that is has to
>>>do with betting.
>David Wilton, at http://www.uselessknowledge.com/word/fat.shtml
>
>claims that the phrase is precisely dateable to 1976. I have no idea how
>reliable the site is in terms of its sources, though.
>
>The whole quote from that page is:
>
> Fat Lady Sings
>
> This is one of the few phrases of which we know the exact origin.
> First, the original and full phrase is: The opera ain't over until
> the fat lady sings. The phrase was first used in column by
> sportswriter Dan Cook in 1976. Cook's column, which appeared in the
> San Antonio News-Express, was about the San Antonio Spurs, a
> professional basketball team.
>
> Cook, who also worked as a broadcaster for KENS-TV in San Antonio,
> repeated the phrase in April 1978 when the Spurs were down three
> games to one in the playoffs against the Washington Bullets. [...]
Wilton's phrasing seems quite similar to a column on the subject
by Cecil Adams:
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_243b.html
Also, a "farewell to Dan Cook" from a San Antonio TV station -- he
retired as the station's lead sports anchor in November, it seems --
alludes to Cook's connection with the "Fat Lady Sings" meme:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/kens/dancook/
Pursuant to Donna Richoux's question, I wonder whether it may be
possible to get in touch with Cook via the TV station and ask
whether he originated the phrase or just popularized something
that'd been around earlier.
JM
Evan Kirshenbaum
> David Wilton, at http://www.uselessknowledge.com/word/fat.shtml
>
> claims that the phrase is precisely dateable to 1976. I have no idea how
> reliable the site is in terms of its sources, though.
>
> The whole quote from that page is:
>
> Fat Lady Sings
>
> This is one of the few phrases of which we know the exact origin.
> First, the original and full phrase is: The opera ain't over until
> the fat lady sings. The phrase was first used in column by
> sportswriter Dan Cook in 1976. Cook's column, which appeared in the
> San Antonio News-Express, was about the San Antonio Spurs, a
> professional basketball team.
>
> Cook, who also worked as a broadcaster for KENS-TV in San Antonio,
> repeated the phrase in April 1978
_Bartlett's_ quotes Cooks 1978 broadcast, but seems to have been
unaware of the printed article. This is all in a footnote, however.
They list "Church ain't out till the fat lady sings" under Anonymous,
collected in Fabie Rue Smith and Charles Rayford Smith's 1976
_Southern Words and Sayings_. Presumably if it was collected in such
a volume in 1976 it must have already had considerable currency.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Specifically, I'd like to debate
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |whether cannibalism ought to be
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |grounds for leniency in murder,
|since it's less wasteful.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Calvin
(650)857-7572
Rich Clancey
+ On Sun, 18 Mar 2001 22:55:06 GMT, "Alex Chernavsky"
+ <al...@astrocyte-design.com> wrote:
+ >I've never really understood what Salinger was trying to say with that Fat
+ >Lady / Jesus stuff. In fact, I'm astounded that the same person wrote both
+ >_Catcher in the Rye_ (my favorite novel) and _Franny and Zooey_ (one of my
+ >least favorite books). The style is so different that I would have sworn
+ >that two different authors wrote those books. _Catcher_ is funny,
+ >insightful, and fairly straightforward. _Franny and Zooey_ is pretentious,
+ >boring, and (to me) incomprehensible.
I think Salinger was a pretty good short stoy writer who had
one novel in him. His second and further attempts at novel writing
were kind of pathetic. "Catcher" was such a surprise hit that I'm
sure the publisher would have issued anything with Salinger's name on
it next.
--
rich clancey r...@world.std.com rcla...@massart.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I often think there should exist a special typographical sign
for a smile -- some sort of concave mark, a supine round bracket.
~ Vladimir Nabokov, April 1969
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Cunningham
said:
[...]
>(When I searched my archive of old posts, I found three where I said, "I
>can't believe this isn't in the FAQ yet, we must get it several times a
>year." Well, ditto.)
It's in the FAQ in the sense that the FAQ Supplement refers us to Dave
Wilton's Etymology Page for information on word and phrase origins.
Dave Wilton begins his piece on "Fat Lady" with:
This is one of the few phrases of which we know the exact origin.
and ends it with:
(The source for the above is _Return of the Straight Dope_,
by Cecil Adams, ISBN 0-345-38111-4)
For the full piece, see
http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorf.htm
.
Bob Cunningham
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> said that whhvs@*removethis*operamail.com
(Harvey V) writes:
>> David Wilton, at http://www.uselessknowledge.com/word/fat.shtml
>> claims that the phrase is precisely dateable to 1976. I have no idea how
>> reliable the site is in terms of its sources, though.
>> The whole quote from that page is:
That's not true. The whole quote from the page has a statement of
his source:
Harvey V
<v61dbt40kbf2dqsuf...@4ax.com>:
Hmmmm.... I can't see that at all on the page I copied the quote from:
aside from the side, top and bottom frames, all I can see after what I
copied is:
"Word and Phrase Origins" are copyrighted by David Wilton
View Another Word Origin?
Where can you find books about Word Origins? Click here to find out!
(The latter, of course, points towards Amazon.)
I must be missing something -- where on the page did you find the source
reference?
Harvey
Harvey V
<Xns9069E79CFD161...@194.168.222.9>:
<snip>
>
>I must be missing something -- where on the page did you find the source
>reference?
>
>Harvey
>
>
Ahh -- just saw your other post. We're working from different pages, and
on the URL I referenced in my original post, he doesn't source.
Basically, we're both right.
Harvey
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Dave Wilton begins his piece on "Fat Lady" with:
>
> This is one of the few phrases of which we know the exact origin.
>
> and ends it with:
>
> (The source for the above is _Return of the Straight Dope_,
> by Cecil Adams, ISBN 0-345-38111-4)
And yet somehow Adams, in his 1994 book fails to note that the phrase
is discussed in the 1992 _Bartlett's Familiar Quotations, 16e_ (and
perhaps earlier editions), which footnotes his source but cites an
almost certainly earlier one. (It's a book published the same year as
the column Adams refers to, but in a collection of well-known
sayings.)
I mean, seriously! Discussing a phrase's origin without at least
checking Bartlett's?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |All tax revenue is the result of
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |holding a gun to somebody's head.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Not paying taxes is against the law.
|If you don't pay your taxes, you'll
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |be fined. If you don't pay the fine,
(650)857-7572 |you'll be jailed. If you try to
|escape from jail, you'll be shot.
| P.J. O'Rourke
N.Mitchum
----
> on the URL I referenced in my original post, he doesn't source.
Newspeak: I referenced and he sourced.
----NM
Skitt
"N.Mitchum" <aj...@lafn.org> wrote in message
news:3AB69E...@lafn.org...
"Referenced" is dated 1891, but "sourced" is still a youngster, dated 1957.
Ref.: MWCD10.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://i.am/skitt/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel of "Fawlty Towers" (he's from Barcelona).
Robert Lieblich
[re: Catcher in the Rye]
> It's some time since I read the book and I don't remember that part, but from
> the context I would assume that it is saying that the aphorism "It isn't over
> till the fat lady sings" refers to the second coming of Christ.
>
> As I said, it may be folk etymology, but I have always assumed that "the fat
> lady" was derived from the leading soprano who sang her last aria as she was
> dying in the final scene of the opera. After that it's curtains for everyone.
Dick Motta, coach of the Washington Bullets, who is credited with
popularizing the saying, rendered it as: "The opera ain't over till
the fat lady sings." [Yogi Berra had nothing to do with it, BTW]
There's no relation between Buddy Glass's Fat Lady and Dick Motta's
-- fat and ladyhood aside.
Ool
> "Alex Chernavsky" <al...@astrocyte-design.com> wrote in message
> news:Qm9t6.268936$o91.36...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> > Nienke wrote:
> > > Can anyone tell me what the expression "It isn't over until the
> > > fat lady sings (whistles?)" means? The only thing I know is that
> > > is has to do with betting.
> > http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-ita1.htm
> The suggestion that it may derive from church singing is interesting. I
> had always assumed it related to opera, but always thought it mistaken
> in its assumption that operas tend to end with a soprano aria. Offhand
> I can only think of Tristan und Isolde and Gotterdamerung where that
> happens. Even in Gotterdammerung there are 10 minutes of orchestral
> music after Brunnhilda's aria, and one line from another character
> (somewhat belated advice from Hagen to the audience to stay away from
> "The Ring").
Well, I can't read it saying anything about it being over right AFTER
she sings. Making the old mistake of reversing syllogistical state-
ments non-partially, are we?
--
__ "Space Opera--it's not over until the Fat Lady explodes." __
('__`> <'__`)
//6(6; 呢OL mm :^)^\\
`\_-/ http://home.t-online.de/home/ulrich.schreglmann/redbaron \-_/'
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>David Wilton, at http://www.uselessknowledge.com/word/fat.shtml
>
>claims that the phrase is precisely dateable to 1976. I have no idea how
>reliable the site is in terms of its sources, though.
>
>The whole quote from that page is:
>
> Fat Lady Sings
>
> This is one of the few phrases of which we know the exact origin.
> First, the original and full phrase is: The opera ain't over until
> the fat lady sings. The phrase was first used in column by
> sportswriter Dan Cook in 1976. Cook's column, which appeared in the
> San Antonio News-Express, was about the San Antonio Spurs, a
> professional basketball team.
>
> Cook, who also worked as a broadcaster for KENS-TV in San Antonio,
> repeated the phrase in April 1978 when the Spurs were down three
> games to one in the playoffs against the Washington Bullets. It
> turned out that Cook was right, the fat lady had not yet sung for
> the Spurs, but she was waiting in the wings. The Spurs won the next
> game but lost game six and the series. Dick Motta, the Bullets'
> coach heard Cook's broadcast and used the phrase himself to caution
> against overconfidence in the Bullets upcoming series with the
> Philadelphia 76ers. Motta was widely quoted and the phrase entered
> the sporting vernacular.
But according to others who have posted in this thread, the phrase was already
used, or referred to, or alluded to, in Salinger's _Franny and Zooey_, which
was published about 15 years earlier.
Steve Hayes
http://www.suite101.com/myhome.cfm/methodius
Steve Hayes
Then it isn't over :-)
But he seems to have been upstaged by the new guy in India.
So now it's not over till the Sikh boy singhs.
Steve Hayes
http://www.suite101.com/myhome.cfm/methodius
Jitze Couperus
>
>Now that's really interesting. I remember asking about one of these
>sports announcer expressions (this one, or maybe "the catbird seat")
>whether it couldn't be an old down-home country-boy oral-tradition sort
>of thing. Some of these colorful types have a big hoard of funny sayings
>from their youth to draw on. If this went back to the "old country"...
>
>Jitze, what year was your father born? When did he leave the
>Netherlands?
>
Born 1905 and left as a teenager around 1920 near as I can figure.
Then much later in life he retired back to NL but then he spoke
primarily Dutch with neighbors and relatives (rather than Friesian
as we spoke at home in my childhood) so I must have heard this
in the late 1940s or 50s.
But then he had a whole stock of Friesian expressions which
which belied the reputation of that tribe as a dour lot.
Jitze
Apteryx
"Ool" <ulrich.sc...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:996la1$vhe$05$1...@news.t-online.com...
> "Apteryx" <a.m...@deletethistoreply.xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:994q28$v43$1...@raewyn.paradise.net.nz...
>
interesting. I
> > had always assumed it related to opera, but always thought it
mistaken
> > in its assumption that operas tend to end with a soprano aria.
Offhand
> > I can only think of Tristan und Isolde and Gotterdamerung where that
> > happens. Even in Gotterdammerung there are 10 minutes of orchestral
> > music after Brunnhilda's aria, and one line from another character
> > (somewhat belated advice from Hagen to the audience to stay away
from
> > "The Ring").
>
> Well, I can't read it saying anything about it being over right AFTER
> she sings. Making the old mistake of reversing syllogistical state-
> ments non-partially, are we?
>
>
That must be it - that one always gets me.
--
Apteryx
Tom Deveson
>But according to others who have posted in this thread, the phrase was already
>used, or referred to, or alluded to, in Salinger's _Franny and Zooey_, which
>was published about 15 years earlier.
I think there's some confusion here. As my post said on Sunday, the two
Fat Ladies -- Zooey's and the one who sings before it's all over -- are
quite different people. Zooey's just sits on the porch listening to the
radio. She's in a wicker chair, she's got cancer, she swats flies, and
she's Christ Himself. But she doesn't sing.
Salinger doesn't allude to the phrase about a fat lady singing.
Tom
--
Tom Deveson
Lars Eighner
the lovely and talented Tom Deveson
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
TD> Steve Hayes writes
>> But according to others who have posted in this thread, the phrase
>> was already used, or referred to, or alluded to, in Salinger's
>> _Franny and Zooey_, which was published about 15 years earlier.
TD> I think there's some confusion here. As my post said on Sunday,
TD> the two Fat Ladies -- Zooey's and the one who sings before it's
TD> all over -- are quite different people. Zooey's just sits on the
TD> porch listening to the radio. She's in a wicker chair, she's got
TD> cancer, she swats flies, and she's Christ Himself. But she doesn't
TD> sing.
TD> Salinger doesn't allude to the phrase about a fat lady singing.
I concur. The kindest thing I can say about the _Franny & Zooey_
theory is: "unconvincing." I read _Franny & Zooey_ many times over,
studied it, and engaged in many "Was Franny pregnant or what?" debates
with my friends. The Fat Lady has nothing whatsoever to do with
singing or things being over. Indeed, the Fat Lady is the reason to
carry on.
I'm surprised we haven't heard the Kate Smith theory. The only thing
wrong with that is that the expression about the fat lady singing
predates Kate Smith's offering "God Bless America" at the conclusion
of basketball games.
I just don't see that it can be anything other than an operatic
reference, probably by someone who knew little about the opera.
The ample, Wagnerian soprano was once a staple of cartoons, quite
as familiar as one-palm-tree desert isles and cavemen dragging their
mates around by the hair. (What should we call a dead cliche, one
so long buried that young people would take it for novel if they
found it?) I suppose many people had no other impression of opera
than that they gathered from the cartoons. In cartoon opera the
line makes perfect sense, never mind that there may be no real
opera that ends with the fat lady's song.
--
Lars Eighner eig...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/
Break out of the faceless masses: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/picons/ftp/faq.html
"Any activity becomes creative when the doer cares about doing it
right, or doing it better." --John Updike
Jacqui
> In cricket, of course, it isn't over till the fat boy spins.
The CD isn't over until the fat boy slims.
Jac
Ross Howard
Don't too many Cooks spoil the broth?
Ross Howard
satchi
N.Mitchum
-----
> > Newspeak: I referenced and he sourced.
>
> "Referenced" is dated 1891, but "sourced" is still a youngster, dated 1957.
I bet, though, that neither word had any currency before the
Internet Age. They may have been understandable, that is, but few
people actually used them. To me, this makes them newspeak.
----NM
Alec "Skitt" P.
"N.Mitchum" <aj...@lafn.org> wrote in message news:3AB7D8...@lafn.org...
I heard "referenced" many, many times at Lockheed, and it was much before
the Age of Internet. I originally thought it to be wrong, but had to
change my view upon further research. "Sourcing" I have only heard as
"outsourcing" -- again in business contexts, not internet. I will accept
that "sourcing" is newspeak, for the time being.
ref
I think "referenced" was in use before the Internet Age.
Robert Lieblich
[ . . . ]
> I'm surprised we haven't heard the Kate Smith theory. The only thing
> wrong with that is that the expression about the fat lady singing
> predates Kate Smith's offering "God Bless America" at the conclusion
> of basketball games.
I have no source for this but my own recollection, but I'm pretty
sure Kate Smith sang at the beginning of those sporting events she
graced with her presence. If you think about it, the average sports
fan isn't about to hang around at the end of the game for a solemn
rendition of *God Bless America* or anything else short of a
fireworks show or free beer.
I do remember La Smith doing her stuff for the Philadelphia Flyers
(a hockey game) a few years ago. She sang before the game.
And anyway, Motta said specifically "The *opera* ain't over ..."
Evan Kirshenbaum
> And anyway, Motta said specifically "The *opera* ain't over ..."
And the Smiths specifically collected "Church ain't out ..." I think
it's pretty clear that Motta vectored it the nation as a whole and
that he probably got it, complete with opera setting, from Cook, but
for it to have been collectable in volume of "Southern sayings"
(published the same year Cook committed it to print), it must have had
at least regional currency with the church setting.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"Revolution" has many definitions.
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |From the looks of this, I'd say
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |"going around in circles" comes
|closest to applying...
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Richard M. Hartman
(650)857-7572
W. Wesley Groleau
> "outsourcing" -- again in business contexts, not internet. I will accept
> that "sourcing" is newspeak, for the time being.
It's also used to describe the action of one csh script
reading in another--but of course that would be newspeak.
--
Wes Groleau
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau/
Lars Eighner
the lovely and talented Robert Lieblich
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
RL> graced with her presence. If you think about it, the average
RL> sports fan isn't about to hang around at the end of the game for a
RL> solemn rendition of *God Bless America* or anything else short of
RL> a fireworks show or free beer.
"Solemn" is not the word I would have picked to describe Smith's
rendering of "God Bless America," sincere as it no doubt was.
--
Lars Eighner eig...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/
Break out of the faceless masses: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/picons/ftp/faq.html
"The reason that there are so few good books written is that so few
people who write know anything." --Walter Bagehot
Bob Cunningham
>Harvey
I was reading from
http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorf.htm#fat lady
, where it says:
===== Begin excerpt =====
Fat Lady Sings
This is one of the few phrases of which we know the exact origin.
First, the original and full phrase is: The opera ain't over until
the fat lady sings.
The phrase was first used in column by sportswriter Dan Cook in 1976.
Cook's column, which appeared in the San Antonio News-Express, was
about the San Antonio Spurs, a professional basketball team.
Cook, who also worked as a broadcaster for KENS-TV in San Antonio,
repeated the phrase in April 1978 when the Spurs were down three games
to one in the playoffs against the Washington Bullets. It turned out
that Cook was right, the fat lady had not yet sung for the Spurs, but
she was waiting in the wings. The Spurs won the next game but lost
game six and the series. Dick Motta, the Bullets' coach heard Cook's
broadcast and used the phrase himself to caution against
overconfidence in the Bullets upcoming series with the Philadelphia
76ers. Motta was widely quoted and the phrase entered the sporting
vernacular.
(The source for the above is Return of the Straight Dope, by Cecil
Adams, ISBN 0-345-38111-4)
===== End excerpt =====
The copyright notice is way down at the bottom of the page, after
several other items starting with "f" have been discussed.
He has done a fair amount of reorganization in recent months. Could
it be that you copied the article some time ago, before the
reorganization?
By the way, I'm responding to a posting that you posted 19 March. It
appeared in my Earthlink feed only today. (Yes, Skitt, I tried the
German ISP and liked it. I switched back to Earthlink one day when
the Germans seemed to be down for several hours, and I haven't
switched back yet.)
Harvey V
<snip>
>>>>> claims that the phrase is precisely dateable to 1976. I have no
>>>>> idea how reliable the site is in terms of its sources, though.
<snip>
>>>That's not true. The whole quote from the page has a statement of
>>>his source:
<snip>
>>Hmmmm.... I can't see that at all on the page I copied the quote from:
>> aside from the side, top and bottom frames, all I can see after what
>>I copied is:
<snip>
>I was reading from
>http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorf.htm#fat lady
<snip>
>The copyright notice is way down at the bottom of the page, after
>several other items starting with "f" have been discussed.
>
>He has done a fair amount of reorganization in recent months. Could
>it be that you copied the article some time ago, before the
>reorganization?
Hi, Bob --
It was actually simpler than that: the mystery was cleared up when I
realised that we were looking at entirely different pages. (I posted on
this, but the article has probably disappeared from the servers by now.)
The URL in my original post was
http://www.uselessknowledge.com/word/fat.shtml, rather than the original
www.wordorigins site which you were using; the former didn't include the
source reference from the original site.
Cheers,
Harvey
N.Mitchum
-----
> This is one of the few phrases of which we know the exact origin. [...]
>
> The phrase was first used in column by sportswriter Dan Cook in 1976.
>
> broadcast and used the phrase himself [...].
> Motta was widely quoted and the phrase entered the sporting
> vernacular.
For long I believed, and asserted, that the line came from Yogi
Berra. After checking with Google, I understand why.
At <http://www.santacruzpl.org/readyref/files/d-f/fat.shtml> :
"The quote has often been attributed to Dick Motta, coach of the
Washington Bullets basketball team, but it actually originated
with Cook. Cook said his line was a takeoff on Yogi Berra's line,
'The game isn't over 'til it's over.'"
I suspect I'm not the first to confuse the two lines.
----NM