Pronunciation of the name Wriothesley
sage
It's associated with Henry W., 3rd Earl of Southampton, one of
Shakespeare's patrons and alleged to be The Fair Youth of Sonnets fame.
I get the feeling it falls into the same classification as Marjoribanks,
Featherstonehaugh and St. John, these becoming Marshbanks, Fanshaw(e)
and Sinjen, respectively. There are others like them, I'm sure.
Thanks for any advice.
Cheers, Sage
Peter Duncanson
My first thought was "Riley".
However:
http://www.hants.gov.uk/museum/westbury/tapestry/wriothesley.html
says "Risley".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Dominic Bojarski
Beauchamp (Beecham) and Cholmondeley (Chumley) are also in this group.
Didn't know about St. John, though. Thanks.
Dominic Bojarski
Peter Duncanson
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
>However:
>http://www.hants.gov.uk/museum/westbury/tapestry/wriothesley.html
>
>says "Risley".
>
And a certain Toby Inkster:
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/05/25/non-intuitive-surnames/
says "Roxley"
Adrian Bailey
news:1187907594.1...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
And Farquhar's "farker", of course.
Adrian
HVS
> Can anyone suggest how one should pronounce the name
> "Wriothesley"?
"Risley", I'm fairly certain.
> It's associated with Henry W., 3rd Earl of Southampton, one of
> Shakespeare's patrons and alleged to be The Fair Youth of
> Sonnets fame.
>
> I get the feeling it falls into the same classification as
> Marjoribanks, Featherstonehaugh and St. John, these becoming
> Marshbanks, Fanshaw(e) and Sinjen, respectively. There are
> others like them, I'm sure.
Cholmondeley (chumley), Beauchamp (beecham) -- as well as place-
names, of course (all the Worcester-Gloucester ones, Bicester,
Kirkcaldy, Beaulieu).
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
sage
Thank you all for your help. It will help my intro very well.
Peter Duncanson: The links were illuminating. I lived in Southampton
WIWAL but cannot recall ever visiting Titchfield. Regarding the
different pronunciations: perhaps these were influenced over the
centuries through local variation.
Cheers, Sage
irwell
wrote:
And Kirkcudbright, also Milngavie.
Peter Duncanson
>Regarding the
>different pronunciations: perhaps these were influenced over the
>centuries through local variation.
Yes. And we can't rule out the possibility of one family of
Wriothesleys wishing to distinguish themselves from another of the
same name.
HVS
> On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:32:21 -0400, sage <sa...@allstream.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Regarding the
>> different pronunciations: perhaps these were influenced over
>> the centuries through local variation.
>
> Yes. And we can't rule out the possibility of one family of
> Wriothesleys wishing to distinguish themselves from another of
> the same name.
Or from the lower but better-known oiks. I recall coming across a
countess of some sort -- I've forgotten which one -- with the surname
"Pepys" and a footnote in Burke's specifying that it was pronounced
'peppis'.
Don Aitken
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:32:21 -0400, sage <sa...@allstream.net> wrote:
>
>>Regarding the
>>different pronunciations: perhaps these were influenced over the
>>centuries through local variation.
>
>Yes. And we can't rule out the possibility of one family of
>Wriothesleys wishing to distinguish themselves from another of the
>same name.
I doubt if there ever was more than one. The name was invented around
1500 by John Wrythe, Garter King of Arms, who presumably thought his
existing name not difficul enought to pronounce. Only 28 people ever
used it as a surname; the family became extinct five generations
later, on the death of Thomas Wriothesley, 4th Earl of Southampton, in
1667, so it is some time since the problem was very pressing (although
it occasionally shows up as a middle name).
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Mike Lyle
"sage" <sa...@allstream.net> wrote in message
news:Aonzi.335400$wG2.1...@newsfe17.lga...
Interesting article by Germaine Greer in last Saturday's Grauniad about
Shakespeare and the Sonnets. It proposed an attractive thesis, but I
can't assess the merits of her argument:
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/classics/story/0,,2150903,00.html
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
CDB
> "sage" <sa...@allstream.net> wrote in message
> news:Aonzi.335400$wG2.1...@newsfe17.lga...
>> Can anyone suggest how one should pronounce the name "Wriothesley"?
>>
>> It's associated with Henry W., 3rd Earl of Southampton, one of
>> Shakespeare's patrons and alleged to be The Fair Youth of Sonnets
>> fame.
>>
>> I get the feeling it falls into the same classification as
>> Marjoribanks, Featherstonehaugh and St. John, these becoming
>> Marshbanks, Fanshaw(e) and Sinjen, respectively. There are others
>> like them, I'm sure.
I'm not sure it's by St-John per se, but perhaps by son semblant.
> Interesting article by Germaine Greer in last Saturday's Grauniad
> about Shakespeare and the Sonnets. It proposed an attractive
> thesis, but I can't assess the merits of her argument:
> http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/classics/story/0,,2150903,00.html
It would be pleasant to think that some of the sonnets were written to
his wife; and why not? The Hate-away sonnet is pretty convincing.
But Greer is cutting the evidence to fit her thesis that a great many
of them are for Anne: literally; I do wish she wouldn't snip her
citations to just what will prove her claims.
She insists on taking the word "ceremony" in "the perfect ceremony of
love's rite" literally, when context would make it most likely to mean
the words "I love you," because that will advance her case. I wonder
what she would make of Yeats's drowned ceremony of innocence, if she
had a bee in her bouffant about that.
And she's careless. She misquotes one of the most famous sonnets: at
least, my edition gives no variant line to CXVI like "I never *lived*,
nor no man ever loved". And what, exactly, does the 'inter" in
"friends are meant to be similes inter pares, of equal standing" mean?
Better to eschew Latin than to chew it up.
And, in the Guardian article at least, she loses marks for making no
mention of the second-best bed. If Mr and Mrs WS lived like the ideal
couple, you really have to account for his will. Didn't they call her
Crazy Germs back home? But I might get on the library list for the
damned book.
Thank you. I feel better now.
sage
> Interesting article by Germaine Greer in last Saturday's Grauniad about
> Shakespeare and the Sonnets. It proposed an attractive thesis, but I
> can't assess the merits of her argument:
> http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/classics/story/0,,2150903,00.html
>
because it takes another tack on the whole mystery.
Is "Hate-away" an assumption of the then-current pronunciation or is it
documented as such?
Cheers, Sage
CDB
He did rhyme "temperate" with "too short a date". I vaguely recall
hearing that the "long 'a'" was the last vowel to succumb to the
shift. ['hAt a'waj]?
Mike Lyle
I think they were very permissive with eye-rhymes and such when it came
to word-play --I'm sure I read something in which "Ajax" and "a jakes"
were lined up together, but that wouldn't have told us how the former
was pronounced.
CDB
Language Log has something on it at
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/2005_07.html ,
about an inch down ("Shakespeare as a Tarheel, Ajax as a Privy",
although there are earlier related articles on the same page of the
archive).
They report that, according to David Crystal, "Ajax" was pronounced "a
jakes" ([adZe:ks], to my ear) and not the other way around. But in
one of the several sound files attached to the article, they also have
actors pronouncing "Greece" as [gre:s], which seems likely to cause
confusion when you come to differentiate "abate" from "a beet".
A difficult question, made knottier by the variegated English of that
place and time (a topic addressed earlier on site: "Tudor Linguistic
Homogeneity"). Could it be for good reason that you lot always say
"beetroot"?
Frances Kemmish
> I think they were very permissive with eye-rhymes and such when it came
> to word-play --I'm sure I read something in which "Ajax" and "a jakes"
> were lined up together, but that wouldn't have told us how the former
> was pronounced.
>
I remember that too. I thought it was "The History of Ajax", but my
Google researches turned up: "A New Discourse upon a Stale Subject: The
Metamorphosis of Ajax" by J Harington, published in 1596.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harington
Fran
Mike Lyle
Hmm. If Crystal says it, I'm not about to argue very loudly. But, given
their wordplay habits, I wonder about that, as educated Tudorbethans
knew all about foreign names.
> But in
> one of the several sound files attached to the article, they also have
> actors pronouncing "Greece" as [gre:s], which seems likely to cause
> confusion when you come to differentiate "abate" from "a beet".
>
> A difficult question, made knottier by the variegated English of that
> place and time (a topic addressed earlier on site: "Tudor Linguistic
> Homogeneity"). Could it be for good reason that you lot always say
> "beetroot"?
Perhaps; but maybe we don't need to look any further than the kitchen:
beet tops are as much a recognised veg as beet roots. In fact, the
former of the latter aren't bad; but on the whole the two come from
different varieties.
CDB
["Beetroot": a recently-uncovered early example of disambiguative
strategies in British English?]
> Perhaps; but maybe we don't need to look any further than the
> kitchen: beet tops are as much a recognised veg as beet roots. In
> fact, the former of the latter aren't bad; but on the whole the two
> come from different varieties.
Must keep an eye out. I like the greens, but have only ever gotten
them by buying the attached beets. My father was fond of the two
served together, with butter and salt.
Oleg Lego
And a few tops in the borscht is nice, too.
Canadian usage is:
Tops: beet greens
beet tops
Roots:
beets
Beets that have been soaked in a brine:
beet pickles (Saskatchewan)
pickled beets (other areas)
harvard beets (pretentious)
Mike Lyle
Brit and Oz pickled beetroot come in vinegar. Note that I didn't use a
singular verb: I'm prepared to negotiate on this point, but I think it
may be collective for slices and plural for little whole ones (which are
good with cottage cheese).
Pat Durkin
"Oleg Lego" <r...@atatatat.com> wrote in message
news:i606d3dsjd8241k4s...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:23:53 -0400, CDB posted:
>
>>
>>Must keep an eye out. I like the greens, but have only ever gotten
>>them by buying the attached beets. My father was fond of the two
>>served together, with butter and salt.
>
> And a few tops in the borscht is nice, too.
>
> Canadian usage is:
>
> Tops: beet greens
> beet tops
>
> Roots:
> beets
Same here (upper Midwest US).
>
> Beets that have been soaked in a brine:
> beet pickles (Saskatchewan)
> pickled beets (other areas)
> harvard beets (pretentious)
Pickled beets, here.
Harvard beets, to me, can be served hot or cold, as the sauce (syrup) is
sweet-and-sour. I think it is just formed from the pickled beets in
their juice, but with sugar and thickening added, but my sister says it
is baby-beets, rather than just slices or chunks of the larger ones.
She hasn't made it, though. I suppose I could find both kinds of pickled
beets in the stores, but mainly I get them at salad bars or from
restaurant menus.
>
Peter Duncanson
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Brit and Oz pickled beetroot come in vinegar. Note that I didn't use a
>singular verb: I'm prepared to negotiate on this point, but I think it
>may be collective for slices
From a label:
Sainsbury's Sliced Beetroot in Sweet Vinegar
Is that collective or perhaps mass?
>and plural for little whole ones (which are
>good with cottage cheese).
--
Mike Lyle
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 18:29:55 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
> <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Brit and Oz pickled beetroot come in vinegar. Note that I didn't use
>> a singular verb: I'm prepared to negotiate on this point, but I
>> think it may be collective for slices
>
> From a label:
>
> Sainsbury's Sliced Beetroot in Sweet Vinegar
>
> Is that collective or perhaps mass?
You're right to bring that up. Tilting toward mass, I think. But don't
they label the little whole ones "baby beets" with an "s"?
Peter Moylan
> I think they were very permissive with eye-rhymes and such when it
> came to word-play --I'm sure I read something in which "Ajax" and "a
> jakes" were lined up together, but that wouldn't have told us how the
> former was pronounced.
That would explain why Ajax "the foaming cleanser" used to be promoted
as something with which to clean the jakes.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> Mike Lyle wrote:
>
> ["Beetroot": a recently-uncovered early example of disambiguative
> strategies in British English?]
>
> > Perhaps; but maybe we don't need to look any further than the
> > kitchen: beet tops are as much a recognised veg as beet roots. In
> > fact, the former of the latter aren't bad; but on the whole the two
> > come from different varieties.
>
> Must keep an eye out. I like the greens, but have only ever gotten
> them by buying the attached beets.
Swiss chard is practically beet greens.
> My father was fond of the two served together, with butter and salt.
I'm fond of them together too. At this time of year, try them chopped
with potatoes, walnuts, and parsley as a filling salad.
--
Jerry Friedman
Robert Bannister
> Brit and Oz pickled beetroot come in vinegar. Note that I didn't use a
> singular verb: I'm prepared to negotiate on this point, but I think it
> may be collective for slices and plural for little whole ones (which are
> good with cottage cheese).
>
This has come up before. Recently, I checked my (Australian) supermarket
shelves and found that all brands of beetroot (whether sliced or whole)
come without vinegar. I must say I like tinned beetroot because if I
cook it myself it always comes out with varying degrees of softness,
whereas the tinned stuff has a uniform, pleasing crispness. I add my own
vinegar and sometimes extra water half an hour before using.
I can't say I've found any use for cottage cheese in recent years,
unless you count fetta as cottage cheese. When I was a kid, we used to
get immature cheese from the Stilton factory, which was nice as it had a
bit of bite to it like St. Ivel (do they still make that?) and some
Eastern European soft cheese. All the alleged cottage cheese I find
today is totally tasteless.
--
Rob Bannister
CDB
> On Aug 27, 10:23 am, "CDB" <bellema...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> Mike Lyle wrote:
>>
>> ["Beetroot": a recently-uncovered early example of disambiguative
>> strategies in British English?]
>>
>>> Perhaps; but maybe we don't need to look any further than the
>>> kitchen: beet tops are as much a recognised veg as beet roots. In
>>> fact, the former of the latter aren't bad; but on the whole the
>>> two come from different varieties.
>>
>> Must keep an eye out. I like the greens, but have only ever gotten
>> them by buying the attached beets.
>
> Swiss chard is practically beet greens.
OK, then. Practically a staple around here. The taste is different,
though: less spinachy, and earthier.
>
>> My father was fond of the two served together, with butter and
>> salt.
>
> I'm fond of them together too. At this time of year, try them
> chopped with potatoes, walnuts, and parsley as a filling salad.
Sounds interesting. Some kind of creamy dressing, as in a potato
salad? I wonder how a thinned aioli made with walnut oil would go
with it.
Peter Duncanson
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Peter Duncanson wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 18:29:55 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
>> <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Brit and Oz pickled beetroot come in vinegar. Note that I didn't use
>>> a singular verb: I'm prepared to negotiate on this point, but I
>>> think it may be collective for slices
>>
>> From a label:
>>
>> Sainsbury's Sliced Beetroot in Sweet Vinegar
>>
>> Is that collective or perhaps mass?
>
>You're right to bring that up. Tilting toward mass, I think. But don't
>they label the little whole ones "baby beets" with an "s"?
I believe so.
irwell
Just don't eat them if your are prone to kidney stones.
Oxalic acid.
Richard Bollard
wrote:
>"Dominic Bojarski" <dominic...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1187907594.1...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>> On Aug 24, 12:01 am, sage <s...@allstream.net> wrote:
>> > Can anyone suggest how one should pronounce the name "Wriothesley"?
>> >
>> > It's associated with Henry W., 3rd Earl of Southampton, one of
>> > Shakespeare's patrons and alleged to be The Fair Youth of Sonnets fame.
>> >
>> > I get the feeling it falls into the same classification as Marjoribanks,
>> > Featherstonehaugh and St. John, these becoming Marshbanks, Fanshaw(e)
>> > and Sinjen, respectively. There are others like them, I'm sure.
>>
>> Beauchamp (Beecham) and Cholmondeley (Chumley) are also in this group.
>> Didn't know about St. John, though. Thanks.
>
>And Farquhar's "farker", of course.
>
Hence ISIRTA's Martha Farquhar, who made it past the BBC radio
censors, while "cowpoke" didn't.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Aug 27, 10:23 am, "CDB" <bellema...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >> Mike Lyle wrote:
>
> >> ["Beetroot": a recently-uncovered early example of disambiguative
> >> strategies in British English?]
>
> >>> Perhaps; but maybe we don't need to look any further than the
> >>> kitchen: beet tops are as much a recognised veg as beet roots. In
> >>> fact, the former of the latter aren't bad; but on the whole the
> >>> two come from different varieties.
>
> >> them by buying the attachedbeets.
>
> > Swiss chard is practically beetgreens.
>
> OK, then. Practically a staple around here. The taste is different,
> though: less spinachy, and earthier.
Apparently they're different varieties, as Mike said, of the same
species. But the stems of red-stem chard taste a lot like beets to
me. Beet roots.
> >> My father was fond of the two served together, with butter and
> >> salt.
>
> > I'm fond of them together too. At this time of year, try them
> > chopped with potatoes, walnuts, and parsley as a filling salad.
>
> Sounds interesting. Some kind of creamy dressing, as in a potato
> salad? I wonder how a thinned aioli made with walnut oil would go
> with it.
How bad can something with garlic be? But I don't like most dressings
and am not good with them, even by the standards of the rest of my
cooking. Maybe something with a little mustard or horseradish or
both. Caraway seeds.
--
Jerry Friedman
Will
> On 23 Aug 2007, sage wrote
>
> > Can anyone suggest how one should pronounce the name
> > "Wriothesley"?
>
>
> > It's associated with Henry W., 3rd Earl of Southampton, one of
> > Shakespeare's patrons and alleged to be The Fair Youth of
> > Sonnets fame.
>
> > I get the feeling it falls into the same classification as
> > Marjoribanks, Featherstonehaugh and St. John, these becoming
> > Marshbanks, Fanshaw(e) and Sinjen, respectively. There are
> > others like them, I'm sure.
>
> names, of course (all the Worcester-Gloucester ones, Bicester,
> Kirkcaldy, Beaulieu).
I was born in Worcestershire, and currently live in Gloucestershire
(as I have for most of my life), and I've never heard of Kirkcaldy,
Glos.
Will.
Mike Lyle
>> Cholmondeley (chumley), Beauchamp (beecham) -- as well as place-
>> names, of course (all the Worcester-Gloucester ones, Bicester,
>> Kirkcaldy, Beaulieu).
>
> I was born in Worcestershire, and currently live in Gloucestershire
> (as I have for most of my life), and I've never heard of Kirkcaldy,
> Glos.
There'll be singing in the streets of Raith tonight.
John Holmes
> Pickled beets, here.
>
> Harvard beets, to me, can be served hot or cold, as the sauce (syrup)
> is sweet-and-sour. I think it is just formed from the pickled beets
> in their juice, but with sugar and thickening added, but my sister
> says it is baby-beets, rather than just slices or chunks of the
> larger ones. She hasn't made it, though. I suppose I could find both
> kinds of pickled beets in the stores, but mainly I get them at salad
> bars or from restaurant menus.
If you can get fresh beets, try cooking them in orange juice. Much nicer
than the pre-pickled ones.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
Al in Dallas
wrote:
>On 24 Aug 2007, Peter Duncanson wrote
>
>> On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:32:21 -0400, sage <sa...@allstream.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Regarding the
>>> different pronunciations: perhaps these were influenced over
>>> the centuries through local variation.
>>
>> Yes. And we can't rule out the possibility of one family of
>> Wriothesleys wishing to distinguish themselves from another of
>> the same name.
>
>Or from the lower but better-known oiks. I recall coming across a
>countess of some sort -- I've forgotten which one -- with the surname
>"Pepys" and a footnote in Burke's specifying that it was pronounced
>'peppis'.
I can't imagine a different pronunciation, /pEp@s/.
--
Al in St. Lou
Evan Kirshenbaum
Most people pronounce it /pips/, and that's the only pronunciation
given by MWCD11. The name itself isn't in the OED, but "Pipsyian" is
given as /'pi:psI@n/
Looking at Google Books, I see
There is some variety of opinion as to the right pronunciation
of Pepys. It is commonly pronounced in London as
if written Peps. Mr. Wheatley tells us that in the lifetime
of the diarist it was pronounced as if written Peeps, and that
living members of the family give it the same sound. Mr.
Lowell, with diplomatic impartiality, called it at times Peeps,
and then Peps, and presently Peeps again, which Avas once
more followed by Peps. Perhaps it does not much signify
but usage in such matters is the only law, and the present
usage in England is certainly to say Peps. There is, I suppose,
no reason why citizens of an independent republic
should not pronounce the name each in his own fashion.
Samuel W. Smalley, _London Letters_, 1891
Ah, here's some evidence:
The pronunciation of Pepys's name has long been a disputed point,
but although the most usual form at the present day is _Peps_,
there can be little doubt that in his own time the name was
pronounced as if written _Peeps_. The reasons for this opinion
are: (1) that the name was sometimes so spelt phonetically by some
of his contemporaries, as in the Coffee-house paper quoted in the
"Diary" (ed. Mynors Bright, vol. vi. p. 292): "On Tuesday last
Mr. Peeps went to Windsor," &c. ; (2) that this pronunciation is
still the received one at Magdalene College, Cambridge; and (3)
that the present bearers of the name so pronounce it.
Henry Wheatley, _Samuel Pepys and the World He Lived in_,
1880
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Any programming problem can be
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |solved by adding another layer of
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |indirection. Any performance
|problem can be solved by removing
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |one.
(650)857-7572
Mike Lyle
Supporting evidence, if any were needed, might come from the name
Wemyss, which is pronounced /wimz/, to rhyme with "dreams". I think
there's at least another one lurking in the back of my mind.
Robert Bannister
> Al in Dallas <alfar...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>
>>On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 23:23:38 +0100, HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Or from the lower but better-known oiks. I recall coming across a
>>>countess of some sort -- I've forgotten which one -- with the
>>>surname "Pepys" and a footnote in Burke's specifying that it was
>>>pronounced 'peppis'.
>>
>>I can't imagine a different pronunciation, /pEp@s/.
>
>
> Most people pronounce it /pips/, and that's the only pronunciation
> given by MWCD11.
Is this a pondial thing? I've only ever heard "peeps".
--
Rob Bannister
Frank ess
On my side it's one of those lessons you learn, like "laugh" and
"social": it doesn't sound the way it looks, and you remember that.
--
Frank ess
Sand E Eggo
California
Evan Kirshenbaum
That's /pips/. Al and I are on the same side of the pond.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Giving money and power to government
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |is like giving whiskey and car keys
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |to teenage boys.
| P.J. O'Rourke
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
HVS
Same here; don't think I've ever heard "pips" in place of "peeps".
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
John Holmes
Nor have I. They are quite different..
Pips is /pIps/
Peeps is /pips/ or maybe even /pi:ps/
That makes four to one against you, Al. Sorry, mate.
Matthew Huntbach
I happen to have a 1928 Debrett's sitting on my shelf, and in this I find
it's the Earl of Cottenham who has the family name "Pepys" which is pronounced
"Pepp-iss". It's also noted that the family name of Viscount Hereford, written
"Devereux" is pronounced "Deverooks", although the only person I've ever known
with that surname pronounced it "Devero".
One should not assume that because one person pronounces their suname in one
way, that someone else with the same surname pronounces it the same way.
I did once have an American with my surname contact me, having found me on
the web, telling me with great pride how they kept up the old tradition
of pronouncing the name as "Humbee". He never contacted me again after I
told him that neither I nor anyone else in my family has even heard of
that pronunciation.
Matthew Huntbach
HVS
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007, Frank ess wrote:
>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>>> Al in Dallas <alfar...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>>> On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 23:23:38 +0100, HVS
>>>>> <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>>>> Or from the lower but better-known oiks. I recall coming
>>>>>> across a countess of some sort -- I've forgotten which one
>>>>>> -- with the surname "Pepys" and a footnote in Burke's
>>>>>> specifying that it was pronounced 'peppis'.
>
>>>>> I can't imagine a different pronunciation, /pEp@s/.
>
>>>> Most people pronounce it /pips/, and that's the only
>>>> pronunciation given by MWCD11.
>
>>> Is this a pondial thing? I've only ever heard "peeps".
>
>> On my side it's one of those lessons you learn, like "laugh"
>> and "social": it doesn't sound the way it looks, and you
>> remember that.
>
> I happen to have a 1928 Debrett's sitting on my shelf, and in
> this I find it's the Earl of Cottenham who has the family name
> "Pepys" which is pronounced "Pepp-iss".
Checking up on this, that's very similar to where I encountered it
-- a 1933 edition of Burke's that I use to track estate descents.
But I've also got a copy here of the 1834 Burke's, when the then-
head of the Pepys family was a baronet; that has no mention of the
pronunciation (although in those days the amount of information in
Burke's was much less comprehensive than in later editions).
That sequence fits nicely with Evan's late 19thC quotes about the
"rediscovery" of the 17th-century pronunciation. If the older
version was re-adopted in the early 20thC for the diarist's name,
it may well have caused the Earl to mark his separation from a non-
aristocratic and distant relation by insisting upon retaining the
evolved pronunciation.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> HVS wrote:
>> On 12 Sep 2007, Robert Bannister wrote
>>
>>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>>
>>>> Al in Dallas <alfar...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>>> I can't imagine a different pronunciation, /pEp@s/.
>>>> Most people pronounce it /pips/, and that's the only
>>>> pronunciation given by MWCD11.
>>> Is this a pondial thing? I've only ever heard "peeps".
>> Same here; don't think I've ever heard "pips" in place of "peeps".
>
> Nor have I. They are quite different..
>
> Pips is /pIps/
> Peeps is /pips/ or maybe even /pi:ps/
>
> That makes four to one against you, Al. Sorry, mate.
Oh, I've heard /'pEpIs/. It was even the pronunciation I used until I
was informed that it was supposed to be /pips/. It's still the way I
usually mentally pronounce the name.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"Are you okay?"
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |"I'm made of felt....Add by dose
|cubs off."
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On my side it's one of those lessons you learn, like "laugh" and
> "social": it doesn't sound the way it looks, and you remember that.
"Social" doesn't sound the way it looks on one level, but at an only
slightly deeper level it does. I can't think of a word in which a
final "-cial" isn't pronounced /S@l/.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |All tax revenue is the result of
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |holding a gun to somebody's head.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Not paying taxes is against the law.
|If you don't pay your taxes, you'll
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |be fined. If you don't pay the fine,
(650)857-7572 |you'll be jailed. If you try to
|escape from jail, you'll be shot.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke
Robert Bannister
> Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> writes:
>
>
>>Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Al in Dallas <alfar...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 23:23:38 +0100, HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Or from the lower but better-known oiks. I recall coming across a
>>>>>countess of some sort -- I've forgotten which one -- with the
>>>>>surname "Pepys" and a footnote in Burke's specifying that it was
>>>>>pronounced 'peppis'.
>>>>
>>>>I can't imagine a different pronunciation, /pEp@s/.
>>
>>>Most people pronounce it /pips/, and that's the only pronunciation
>>>given by MWCD11.
>>
>>Is this a pondial thing? I've only ever heard "peeps".
>
>
> That's /pips/. Al and I are on the same side of the pond.
>
Ah, now I see: I had it assumed it was written in ordinary English.
--
Rob Bannister
Al in Dallas
What we call *ASCII IPA* has been renamed *Kirshenbaum* out in the
real world.
Al in Dallas
wrote:
>HVS wrote:
>> On 12 Sep 2007, Robert Bannister wrote
>>
>>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>>
>>>> Al in Dallas <alfar...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't imagine a different pronunciation, /pEp@s/.
>>>>
>>>> Most people pronounce it /pips/, and that's the only
>>>> pronunciation given by MWCD11.
>>>
>>> Is this a pondial thing? I've only ever heard "peeps".
>>
>> Same here; don't think I've ever heard "pips" in place of "peeps".
>
>Nor have I. They are quite different..
>
>Pips is /pIps/
>Peeps is /pips/ or maybe even /pi:ps/
>
>That makes four to one against you, Al. Sorry, mate.
No worries. I'd never heard of the name before, and I just commented
on how I'd pronounce it from how it's spelled.
Oleg Lego
I never heard it spoken, so I always figured it was pronounced
/pEp@s/.
Daniel al-Autistiqui
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
[re: Samuel Pepys]
>>
>> Nor have I. They are quite different..
>>
>> Pips is /pIps/
>> Peeps is /pips/ or maybe even /pi:ps/
>>
>> That makes four to one against you, Al. Sorry, mate.
>
>Oh, I've heard /'pEpIs/. It was even the pronunciation I used until I
>was informed that it was supposed to be /pips/. It's still the way I
>usually mentally pronounce the name.
I, on the other hand, used to think that /'pEpiz/ ("peppies") was the
way the name was supposed to be pronounced. I made a fascinating post
to sci.lang on the matter of this name last August. In discussing a
certain poem I found in a book, one that I used to read constantly
that ridiculed many of the irregular spellings in the English
language, I wrote:
>The lines "And don't be surprised if it's the bowdlerized regularized
>paperback abridgment of Pepys / Because around here, gentlemen, we
>play for kepys" deserve interesting mention here. For several years I
>was completely stumped in trying to decipher the word "kepys". (The
>military hats, perhaps?) The following discussion on
>alt.usage.english cleared it up for me:
>
>
>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/b2c2d6d4a93a3963...
>
>
>At that point I needed to double-check the entry for the diarist's
>name in the dictionary. "Ah!" I thought. The man pronounced his name
>'Peeps', and therefore the other word must be "keeps". For some
>reason I had previously felt 100% sure, with no doubt whatsoever, that
>the name was like "preppies" minus the "r". It had never occurred to
>me that it might be pronounced any other way.
(Having learned the authentic pronunciation of the name -- and I
definitely will never forget it -- I should now add that I am still
tempted to pronounce it in two syllables at the very least, and might
even do so at times depending on the situation. In my mind there
*are* limits on what one can do with one's name. It's a good thing
that Pepys's own works are not my interest!)
daniel mcgrath
--
Daniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende":
for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com"
Developmentally disabled;
has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder),
Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder,
& periodic bouts of depression.
[This signature is under construction.]
Robert Bannister
As I said, I realise that now and probably should have done when I saw
the earlier representation of /pEp@s/. However, slashes or no, "pips"
looks like normal English, and that's what I thought it was meant to be.
--
Rob Bannister
Mike Lyle
[...]
>
> As I said, I realise that now and probably should have done when I saw
> the earlier representation of /pEp@s/. However, slashes or no, "pips"
> looks like normal English, and that's what I thought it was meant to
> be.
And of course, when in doubt, it's pretty safe to assume that the letter
"i" is not pronounced /@/ in England.
Mike M
wrote:
>
> (It's a good thing
> that Pepys's own works are not my interest!)
>
You're missing out. The Diary (abridged is fine) is one of the best
reads in the English language.
Mike M
Daniel al-Autistiqui
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>Al in Dallas <alfar...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 23:23:38 +0100, HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Or from the lower but better-known oiks. I recall coming across a
>>>countess of some sort -- I've forgotten which one -- with the
>>>surname "Pepys" and a footnote in Burke's specifying that it was
>>>pronounced 'peppis'.
>>
>> I can't imagine a different pronunciation, /pEp@s/.
>
>Most people pronounce it /pips/, and that's the only pronunciation
>given by MWCD11. The name itself isn't in the OED, but "Pipsyian" is
>given as /'pi:psI@n/
>
I was reading through the "Pepys" discussion yesterday but didn't
notice until just now that you wrote "Pipsyian". This looks like a
pretty embarrassing spelling mistake. Don't you mean "Pepysian"?
Regarding the "PEP-is" pronunciation (which some dictionaries do list
as an option for the diarist), I should now add that in my mind the
best analogical support for that is the feminine given name "Gladys".
It's not a name that's commonly heard these days, and I have never met
a Gladys: therefore, for many years I could never remember whether the
"a" in this name was supposed to be long or short. For whatever
reason, however, I did know that the "-ys" at the end was pronounced
the same as the "-is" in "Doris". I don't really know what made me
believe for many years that the surname of Samuel Pepys was to be
pronounced "PEP-eez". But when I discussed the pronunciation of this
name with my mother, she told me that she, too, had always assumed it
was "PEP-eez". (Just as long as you don't say "PEE-peez", I guess!)
Google, fortunately, does not know of anyone named Gladys Pepys.
There'd probably be lots of people who'd hesitate over the
pronunciation of her name if they saw it in writing!
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:14:45 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
> <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
>>Most people pronounce it /pips/, and that's the only pronunciation
>>given by MWCD11. The name itself isn't in the OED, but "Pipsyian"
>>is given as /'pi:psI@n/
>>
> I was reading through the "Pepys" discussion yesterday but didn't
> notice until just now that you wrote "Pipsyian". This looks like a
> pretty embarrassing spelling mistake. Don't you mean "Pepysian"?
I did. A simple transposition typo, though. Not terribly
embarrassing.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Those who study history are doomed
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to watch others repeat it.
Palo Alto, CA 94304
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
LFS
>
> Regarding the "PEP-is" pronunciation (which some dictionaries do list
> as an option for the diarist), I should now add that in my mind the
> best analogical support for that is the feminine given name "Gladys".
> It's not a name that's commonly heard these days, and I have never met
> a Gladys: therefore, for many years I could never remember whether the
> "a" in this name was supposed to be long or short. For whatever
> reason, however, I did know that the "-ys" at the end was pronounced
> the same as the "-is" in "Doris". I don't really know what made me
> believe for many years that the surname of Samuel Pepys was to be
> pronounced "PEP-eez". But when I discussed the pronunciation of this
> name with my mother, she told me that she, too, had always assumed it
> was "PEP-eez". (Just as long as you don't say "PEE-peez", I guess!)
>
> Google, fortunately, does not know of anyone named Gladys Pepys.
> There'd probably be lots of people who'd hesitate over the
> pronunciation of her name if they saw it in writing!
>
Wemyss, which is in Scotland, provides a similar challenge.
(Gladys Pepys Wemyss sounds like a good alias for the poster formerly
known as Archie Valparaiso. Or do I mean the former poster known as...?
We don't seem to have heard from him for a while.)
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Daniel al-Autistiqui <gove...@hotmail.invalid> writes:
>
>> On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:14:45 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
>> <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Most people pronounce it /pips/, and that's the only pronunciation
>>>given by MWCD11. The name itself isn't in the OED, but "Pipsyian"
>>>is given as /'pi:psI@n/
>>>
>> I was reading through the "Pepys" discussion yesterday but didn't
>> notice until just now that you wrote "Pipsyian". This looks like a
>> pretty embarrassing spelling mistake. Don't you mean "Pepysian"?
>
> I did. A simple transposition typo, though. Not terribly
> embarrassing.
On second thought, not just a transposition. Still not terribly
embarrassing.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Marge: You liked Rashomon.
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Homer: That's not how *I* remember
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | it.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Al in Dallas
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Robert Bannister wrote:
>[...]
>>
>> As I said, I realise that now and probably should have done when I saw
>> the earlier representation of /pEp@s/. However, slashes or no, "pips"
>> looks like normal English, and that's what I thought it was meant to
>> be.
>
>And of course, when in doubt, it's pretty safe to assume that the letter
>"i" is not pronounced /@/ in England.
How about all of those medical conditions that indicate inflammation?
Sinusitis, bronchitis, bursitis, etc.? I can't imagine putting
anything but a schwa in the last syllable of those, even with a
British accent.
Garrett Wollman
I can easily imagine a BrE speaker using first-syllable stress for two
of your examples (/'brONk It Is/, /'bV" sIt Is/) where you and I would
normally stress the second (which then forces the reduction of the
vowel in the third). This is not to say that they actually do so, but
BrE speakers have surprised me with similar stress-patterns before.
(I can't think of any off-hand, but if I turned on the BBC World
Service for an hour, I would probably hear at least two or three that
sound very odd to this AmE ear, even adjusting for the non-rhotic SEEE
accent most of the presenters display.)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wol...@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Mike Lyle
> In article <jelme31iqsnblsv5k...@4ax.com>,
> Al in Dallas <alfar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:19:48 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
>> <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> And of course, when in doubt, it's pretty safe to assume that the
>>> letter "i" is not pronounced /@/ in England.
>>
>> How about all of those medical conditions that indicate inflammation?
>> Sinusitis, bronchitis, bursitis, etc.? I can't imagine putting
>> anything but a schwa in the last syllable of those, even with a
>> British accent.
>
> I can easily imagine a BrE speaker using first-syllable stress for two
> of your examples (/'brONk It Is/, /'bV" sIt Is/) where you and I would
> normally stress the second (which then forces the reduction of the
> vowel in the third). This is not to say that they actually do so, but
> BrE speakers have surprised me with similar stress-patterns before.
> (I can't think of any off-hand, but if I turned on the BBC World
> Service for an hour, I would probably hear at least two or three that
> sound very odd to this AmE ear, even adjusting for the non-rhotic SEEE
> accent most of the presenters display.)
No, AFAIK standard BrE stresses these words the same way as AmE:
principal stress on the penultimate syll. The Brits can do appalling
things to the alphabet, but at least an "i" is still an "i" here. I
won't go so far as to say that if a patient tells a doctor round here
he's damaged his "penus" she'll wonder why he's telling her about his
arboricultural problems, but it would cause a flicker while she
adjusted. On these shores the schwa-ing of unstressed "i" is mainly an
Irishism.
Peter Moylan
> I did once have an American with my surname contact me, having found me on
> the web, telling me with great pride how they kept up the old tradition
> of pronouncing the name as "Humbee". He never contacted me again after I
> told him that neither I nor anyone else in my family has even heard of
> that pronunciation.
Be grateful, then, that your name is not Huntvach.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
noggi...@gmail.com
> Can anyone suggest how one should pronounce the name "Wriothesley"?
>
> It's associated with Henry W., 3rd Earl of Southampton, one of
> Shakespeare's patrons and alleged to be The Fair Youth of Sonnets fame.
>
> I get the feeling it falls into the same classification as Marjoribanks,
> Featherstonehaugh and St. John, these becoming Marshbanks, Fanshaw(e)
> and Sinjen, respectively. There are others like them, I'm sure.
>
> Thanks for any advice.
>
> Cheers, Sage
All Scholarly sources I've checked say Risley, which would explain why it was shortened to Wrisley, and then Risley.
Sincerely,
Kat Risley
Don Phillipson
>> Can anyone suggest how one should pronounce the name "Wriothesley"?
news:6858a314-c4a4-4d62...@googlegroups.com...
> All Scholarly sources I've checked say Risley, which would explain why it
> was shortened to Wrisley, and then Risley.
> Sincerely,
> Kat Risley
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Christian Weisgerber
>> Can anyone suggest how one should pronounce the name "Wriothesley"?
>
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Paul Wolff
>
>>> Can anyone suggest how one should pronounce the name "Wriothesley"?
>
><noggi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:6858a314-c4a4-4d62...@googlegroups.com...
>
>> All Scholarly sources I've checked say Risley, which would explain why it
>> was shortened to Wrisley, and then Risley.
>> Sincerely,
>> Kat Risley
>
>Riley may be the way Wriothesley usually sounds.
name in either Wolf Hall, or Bring up the Bodies, by Hilary Mantel,
where the character Wriothesley, a hanger-on of Thomas Cromwell, is made
fun of by way of his request to "call me Risley" (or something similar).
But as the two books add up to well over a thousand pages, I've no
enthusiasm for looking up the exact passages. Perhaps someone with a
Kindle version can search for them electromoronically.
--
Paul
musika
> There's a discussion, within the fiction, of the pronunciation of the
> name in either Wolf Hall, or Bring up the Bodies, by Hilary Mantel,
> where the character Wriothesley, a hanger-on of Thomas Cromwell, is made
> fun of by way of his request to "call me Risley" (or something similar).
> But as the two books add up to well over a thousand pages, I've no
> enthusiasm for looking up the exact passages. Perhaps someone with a
> Kindle version can search for them electromoronically.
"In the counting house there is young Thomas Avery, whom you are
training up to take a grip on your private finances. Midway through the
letters comes Marlinspike, strolling in the garden with his observant
golden eyes. Towards the end of the alphabet comes Thomas Wriothesley
pronounced Risley. He is a bright young man, twenty-five or so and well
connected, son of York Herald, nephew to Garter King-at-Arms. In
Wolsey’s household he worked under your direction, then was carried away
by Gardiner, as Master Secretary, to work for him. Now he is sometimes
at court, sometimes at Austin Friars. He’s Stephen’s spy, the children
say – Richard and Rafe.
Master Wriothesley is tall, with red-blond hair, but without the
propensity of others of that complexion – the king, let’s say – to grow
pink when gratified, or mottled when crossed; he is always pale and
cool, always his handsome self, always composed. At Trinity Hall he was
a great actor in the students’ plays, and he has certain affectations, a
consciousness of himself, of how he appears; they mimic him behind his
back, Richard and Rafe, and say, ‘My name is Wri-oth-es-ley, but as I
wish to spare you effort, you can call me Risley.’ They say, he only
complicates his name like that so he can come here and sign things, and
use up our ink. They say, you know Gardiner, he is too angry to use long
names, Gardiner just calls him ‘you’. They are pleased with this joke
and for a while, every time Mr W appears, they shout, ‘It’s you!’
Have mercy, he says, on Master Wriothesley. Cambridge men should have
our respect.
He would like to ask them, Richard, Rafe, Master Wriothesley call me
Risley: do I look like a murderer? There is a boy who says I do."
--
Ray
UK
Paul Wolff
estate.
--
Paul
sonja...@gmail.com
> Can anyone suggest how one should pronounce the name "Wriothesley"?
>
> Shakespeare's patrons and alleged to be The Fair Youth of Sonnets fame.
>
> I get the feeling it falls into the same classification as Marjoribanks,
> Featherstonehaugh and St. John, these becoming Marshbanks, Fanshaw(e)
> and Sinjen, respectively. There are others like them, I'm sure.
>
> Thanks for any advice.
>
> Cheers, Sage
Katy Jennison
In Hilary Mantel's "Bring Up the Bodies", Mr Wriothesley's catchphrase
is "Call me Risley".
--
Katy Jennison
cema...@gmail.com
> Can anyone suggest how one should pronounce the name "Wriothesley"?
>
> It's associated with Henry W., 3rd Earl of Southampton, one of
> Shakespeare's patrons and alleged to be The Fair Youth of Sonnets fame.
>
> I get the feeling it falls into the same classification as Marjoribanks,
> Featherstonehaugh and St. John, these becoming Marshbanks, Fanshaw(e)
> and Sinjen, respectively. There are others like them, I'm sure.
>
> Thanks for any advice.
>
> Cheers, Sage
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wriothesley
REYE-?ths-lee
w silent
r
i as "eye"
o indistinct, as "a" in "about"
th unvoiced as in "thigh"
s as in "sigh"
ley as "lee"
Of course that doesn't rule out a RIZZLI pronunciation. There may be
Wriothesleys who wish to distinguish themseles from other Wriothesleys.
This says:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Wriothesley,_1st_Earl_of_Southampton
pronunciation 'Risley': /'ra?zli/ (archaic),[1] /'r?tsli/[1] and
/'ra???sli/[2] have been suggested)
The first of those is:
risley with "ris" as "rise"
the second:
rotsly with "rot" as "rote"
the third as above (REYE-?ths-lee)
I haven't looked at the Wikip entries for other Wriothesleys.
Perhaps gangs of trouble-making Wriothesleys might be nicknamed "the
Riot Hesleys". :-)
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)