Number of syllables in the name "Neil"

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

How many syllables are in the name Neil and why? My friend is called Neil and disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:10:31 +0100, Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> writes:
>> How many syllables are in the name Neil and why?
>

> The usual pronunciation is /ni:l/, which makes one syllable.

>
>> My friend is called Neil and disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.
>

> It is possible that your friend is called - for example (I
> am making this up now!) - /naI.Il/, and that this name is
> also written »Neil«. So, in this case, there would be two
> syllables.
>
> For example, »Louis« is pronounced /lu.Is/, but if the
> carrier comes from the UK, he might want to be called
> /lu.I/, or if he comes from french /lwi/.

His name is pronounced the same as the word feel. Now if you say "feeling", that has two syllables, changing over at the L. The feel part of the word feeling has only one syllable. But, if you say the word feel on it's own, without the ing, you add an extra sound, your mouth changes shape halfway through. You say fee, followed by ull. Feel has two syllables, it could be written feeyull. Therefore so does Neil - knee, then ull - kneeyull.

--
Love is complicated machinery.
But sometimes all you need is a good screw to fix it.

[charles]

In article <op.x33i5...@red.lan>, Tough Guy no. 1265 <n...@spam.com>
wrote:

> How many syllables are in the name Neil and why? My friend is called
> Neil and disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.

My late cousin's name was pronounced: "neel"

--
Please note new email address:
cha...@CandEhope.me.uk

[charles]

In article <neil-2015...@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>,
Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> writes:
> >How many syllables are in the name Neil and why?

> The usual pronunciation is /ni:l/, which makes one syllable.

> >My friend is called Neil and disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.

> It is possible that your friend is called - for example (I
> am making this up now!) - /naI.Il/, and that this name is
> also written »Neil«. So, in this case, there would be two
> syllables.

> For example, »Louis« is pronounced /lu.Is/, but if the
> carrier comes from the UK, he might want to be called
> /lu.I/, or if he comes from french /lwi/.

Louis is my second name and pronounced: loo-is.

[Dr. Jai Maharaj]

In article <op.x33i5...@red.lan>,
"Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> posted:

>
> How many syllables are in the name Neil
> and why? My friend is called Neil and
> disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.

One syllable. As to why, check this out:

5 Ways to Count Syllables

http://www.howmanysyllables.com/howtocountsyllables

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.jai-maharaj

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:18:59 +0100, charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <op.x33i5...@red.lan>, Tough Guy no. 1265 <n...@spam.com>
> wrote:
>> How many syllables are in the name Neil and why? My friend is called
>> Neil and disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.
>
> My late cousin's name was pronounced: "neel"

You'll have to be more specific. Is that like the first half of feeling, or like the word feel?

--
Collectively, humans have spent almost 13,261 years watching the Gangnam Style video.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

That's the only way I know to pronounce Louis (which I would also call two syllables, your mouth changes shape where you placed the hyphen). One syllable would make it "loose".

--
All religions are part of Operation Mindfuck: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mindfuck

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:10:31 +0100, Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> writes:

>> How many syllables are in the name Neil and why?
>

> The usual pronunciation is /ni:l/, which makes one syllable.
>

>> My friend is called Neil and disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.
>

> It is possible that your friend is called - for example (I
> am making this up now!) - /naI.Il/, and that this name is
> also written »Neil«. So, in this case, there would be two
> syllables.
>
> For example, »Louis« is pronounced /lu.Is/, but if the
> carrier comes from the UK, he might want to be called
> /lu.I/, or if he comes from french /lwi/.

I don't know what all those codes mean unfortunately.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:25:53 +0100, Dr. Jai Maharaj <alt.fan.j...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> In article <op.x33i5...@red.lan>,
> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> posted:
>>
>> How many syllables are in the name Neil
>> and why? My friend is called Neil and
>> disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.
>
> One syllable. As to why, check this out:
>
> 5 Ways to Count Syllables
>
> http://www.howmanysyllables.com/howtocountsyllables

I have read that. Neil has two distinct vowel sounds. Nee, followed by ull. If you watch someone saying the word Neil, you will see their mouth changing shape as they progress to the next vowel sound, and when you say it yourself, you feel your tongue hitting the roof of your mouth as if there were a Y in the middle of the word. Kneel is pronounced identically to Neil. Kneeling has two syllables, one for the kneel section, and one for the ing. But you do not pronounce kneel by saying kneeling and just cutting off the ing. If you recorded the word kneeling on a taperecorder, then blanked off the ing, it would sound completely wrong, as a syllable is missing.

--
Gary Glitter has said if he gets executed he wants cremating and his ashes putting in an etch-a-sketch, so the kids can still play with him!

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

> Yes, that's true (in the US). It can also happen with
> a word as small as »no«, which can become »no-ou«.
> It happens with words ending in a vowel or voiced
> consonant, not with »seat«, but with »seed«.
>
> However, I got my /ni:l/ from a dictionary that claims
> to give the American pronunciation.
>
> It is possible that /ni:l/ is a phonemic transcription,
> while [ni:.@l] would be a phonetic transcript, so
> phonemically there is one syllable, while phonetically
> there are two of them.

I was always taught that a syllable is a vowel sound. When you change the shape of your mouth, that's a new vowel, and a new syllable. How else can you define a syllable?

And I only know of one way to pronounce Neil, the same as kneel, and it's the same in the UK and the US. Here: https://youtu.be/qnBWee7yUx8?t=8s
The man in the video is clearly making two distinct sounds, and his mouth must be changing shape to do so.

--
This space was empty.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:45:53 +0100, Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> writes:
>> I don't know what all those codes mean unfortunately.
>

> I try to use Kirshenbaum IPA, but since I am not totally
> familiar with it myself, I might err sometimes. As far as
> I know, most readers of this newsgroup prefer Kirshenbaum
> IPA for this newsgroup.
>
> Usually most of the symbols resemble IPA, /@/ is intended
> to be the schwa.
>
> It should be possible to learn more about IPA and
> Kirshenbaum IPA by reading results of search engines.

I'm not familiar with any notation for pronunciation. I ain't a linguist. Examples are better.

--
Earth is 98% full, please delete anyone you can.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 23:07:08 +0100, Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> writes:
>> I was always taught that a syllable is a vowel sound.
>

> Yes. But a sound (a phone) is not a phoneme. A phoneme
> is an abstraction of sounds. Sometimes, two sounds might
> be represented by one phoneme.
>
> For example, in the World-Wide Web, one can find:
>
> »structure on the basis of the phonetic syllable
> (or chest pulse) or the phonemic syllable (unit of
> phonemic significance),«
>
> And also:
>
> »A short syllable has one mora: a long syllable
> contains two moræ.«
>
> So, some might say that /ni:l/ is one long syllable
> with two moræ. However, the term »mora« is used more
> with Japanese than with English.) It might have two
> »chest pulses«, but only one »unit of phonemic significance«.
>
> This quotation from the famous »Wikipedia« online
> encyclopedia confirms my assumption about phonemes
> versus phones:
>
> »In most dialects of the English language, for instance
> British Received Pronunciation and General American,
> there is complementary allophonic vowel length. Vowel
> phonemes are realized as longer vowel allophones before
> voiced consonant phonemes in the coda of a syllable,
> meaning vowels are lengthened before a voiced consonant.
> For example, the vowel phoneme /æ/ in /'bæt/ 'bat' is
> realized as a short allophone [æ] in ['bæt], because the
> /t/ phoneme is voiceless, while the same vowel /æ/
> phoneme in /'bæd/ 'bad' is realized as a slightly long
> allophone (which could be transcribed as ['bæ?d]),
> because /d/ is voiced.«
>
> because an »allophone« is just a »phone« that can be a
> representation of a phoneme. For example, the phoneme /i:/
> can have two allophones: [i:] (short) and [i:@] (long, two
> »moræ« one might say).

I don't understand three quarters of the above, I was never taught phonemes, allophones, etc. Vowel sounds are made by different shapes of the mouth, if your mouth changes shape it's a different vowel. Two different vowel sounds in one word implies two syllables. Which part of what I wrote are you saying is incorrect and why?

--
If you are having sex with TWO women and ONE more woman walks in, what do you have?
Divorce proceedings, most likely.

[Dr. Jai Maharaj]

In article <op.x33ks...@red.lan>,

"Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> posted:
>

> Dr. Jai Maharaj posted"

>
> > In article <op.x33i5...@red.lan>,
> > "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> posted:
> >>
> >> How many syllables are in the name Neil
> >> and why? My friend is called Neil and
> >> disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.
> >
> > One syllable. As to why, check this out:
> >
> > 5 Ways to Count Syllables
> >
> > http://www.howmanysyllables.com/howtocountsyllables
>
> I have read that. Neil has two distinct vowel sounds.
> Nee, followed by ull. If you watch someone saying the
> word Neil, you will see their mouth changing shape as
> they progress to the next vowel sound, and when you say
> it yourself, you feel your tongue hitting the roof of
> your mouth as if there were a Y in the middle of the
> word. Kneel is pronounced identically to Neil. Kneeling
> has two syllables, one for the kneel section, and one for
> the ing. But you do not pronounce kneel by saying
> kneeling and just cutting off the ing. If you recorded
> the word kneeling on a taperecorder, then blanked off the
> ing, it would sound completely wrong, as a syllable is
> missing.

Please see:

http://www.howmanysyllables.com/words/neil

But yes, there are people who pronounce it "nee-ull".
It's English after all, so pretty much anything goes.

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

http://tinyurl.com/JaiMaharaj

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

It is always pronounced like this https://youtu.be/qnBWee7yUx8?t=8s in the UK and the US, which has two distinct syllables. Show me a sound recording of any other pronunciation.

--
What did God say when he made the first black man? "Damn, I burnt one."

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 23:25:33 +0100, Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> writes:
>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 23:07:08 +0100, Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>> This quotation from the famous »Wikipedia« online

>>> phoneme in /'bæd/ 'bad' is realized as a slightly long
>>> allophone (which could be transcribed as ['bæ?d]),

>> Which part of what I wrote are
>> you saying is incorrect and why?
>

> No part of what you wrote is incorrect.
>
> You just might consider that your definition of
> »syllable« is not shared by everyone else. That
> does not mean that your definition is incorrect.
>
> For example, in mathematics, several authors give
> several different definitions of the term »function«.
> This does not mean that one of those definitions
> is incorrect. It is common in science that different
> authors give different definitions of terms.

Surely syllable is a clearly defined term. The dictionary says "an uninterrupted segment of speech consisting of a vowel sound" Kneel (and Neil) are interrupted by a Y in the centre as the mouth changes from an EE vowel to an UH vowel.

--
Q. What's a Catholic priest and a pint of Guinness got in common?
A. A black coat, white collar and you've got to watch your arse if you get a dodgy one!

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 23:49:31 +0100, Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> writes:
>> The dictionary says "an uninterrupted segment of speech consisting of a vowel sound"
>

> The dictionary also says /ni:l/ for »Neil«.

I have no idea what that syntax means.

--
"O'Ryan," asked the druggist, "did that mudpack I gave you improve your wife's appearance?"
"It did, surely," replied O'Ryan, "but it keeps fallin' off!"

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 00:13:07 +0100, Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> writes:
>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 23:49:31 +0100, Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> writes:
>>>> The dictionary says "an uninterrupted segment of speech consisting of a vowel sound"
>>> The dictionary also says /ni:l/ for »Neil«.
>> I have no idea what that syntax means.
>

> It means »N«, »long ee«, »l«.

If I'm understanding that correctly, that sounds very French. Is that the same way as you pronounce need?

> (More technically: alveolar_nasal, long close front
> unrounded vowel, and alveolar lateral approximant.)

That's confusing me even more!

--
What is the difference between a female jogger and a sewing machine?
A sewing machine only has one bobbin.

[bill van]

In article <op.x33m2...@red.lan>,

Four of them, right here:

http://forvo.com/word/neil_young/#en
--
bill

[Mr. B1ack]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:32:38 +0100, "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:25:53 +0100, Dr. Jai Maharaj <alt.fan.j...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <op.x33i5...@red.lan>,
>> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> posted:
>>>
>>> How many syllables are in the name Neil
>>> and why? My friend is called Neil and
>>> disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.
>>
>> One syllable. As to why, check this out:
>>
>> 5 Ways to Count Syllables
>>
>> http://www.howmanysyllables.com/howtocountsyllables
>
>I have read that. Neil has two distinct vowel sounds. Nee, followed by ull.

Not in dixieland. It'd be "Neel", not "Ne-Ull".

[Peter Moylan]

On 2015-Aug-29 07:45, Stefan Ram wrote:
> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> writes:
>> I don't know what all those codes mean unfortunately.
>

> I try to use Kirshenbaum IPA, but since I am not totally
> familiar with it myself, I might err sometimes. As far as
> I know, most readers of this newsgroup prefer Kirshenbaum
> IPA for this newsgroup.
>
> Usually most of the symbols resemble IPA, /@/ is intended
> to be the schwa.
>
> It should be possible to learn more about IPA and
> Kirshenbaum IPA by reading results of search engines.

You don't even need a search engine. Pointers to the FAQ are regularly
posted to this newsgroup.

Unfortunately, many drive-by posters don't bother to read the FAQ.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Peter Moylan]

On 2015-Aug-29 07:26, Tough Guy no. 1265 wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:18:59 +0100, charles
> <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <op.x33i5...@red.lan>, Tough Guy no. 1265 <n...@spam.com>
>> wrote:
>>> How many syllables are in the name Neil and why? My friend is called
>>> Neil and disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.
>>
>> My late cousin's name was pronounced: "neel"
>
> You'll have to be more specific. Is that like the first half of
> feeling, or like the word feel?

My "feel" has one syllable, but I can do two if I want to put on a rural
accent.

[John Dunlop]

Tough Guy no. 1265:

> How many syllables are in the name Neil and why? My friend is called
> Neil and disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.

The Longman Pronunciation Dictionary gives an optional schwa between the
[i] and the [l]. So sometimes one syllable, sometimes two.

--
John

[charles]

In article <op.x33kh...@red.lan>, Tough Guy no. 1265 <n...@spam.com>

wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:18:59 +0100, charles
> <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <op.x33i5...@red.lan>, Tough Guy no. 1265
> > <n...@spam.com> wrote:
> >> How many syllables are in the name Neil and why? My friend is called
> >> Neil and disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.
> >
> > My late cousin's name was pronounced: "neel"

> You'll have to be more specific. Is that like the first half of feeling,
> or like the word feel?

Is there a difference?

[charles]

In article <op.x33kk...@red.lan>, Tough Guy no. 1265 <n...@spam.com>
wrote:

A certain Jazz musician didn't pronouce it that way.

[Peter Moylan]

A good point. As I understand it, the usual AmE pronunciation of Louis
is the same as the BrE pronunciation of Lewis, and the usual BrE
pronunciation of Louis is not very different from the FrE -- sorry, I
mean French -- pronunciation.

Was that musician an outlier, or were the rules different in his day?
Google is not much help here, because the obvious search turns up
baby-naming threads, and people who discuss naming babies on the web
seem to give a high priority to finding anti-intuitive pronunciations.

Separate question: I appreciate that AmE is much more influenced by
Spanish than by French. I don't know a lot about Spanish pronunciation.
Is the name Luis similar to BrE Lewis, or is it (as in French rules) a
one-syllable word where the 'u' is a semi-vowel?

[Janet]

In article <op.x33nh...@red.lan>, n...@spam.com says...

>
> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 23:25:33 +0100, Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>
> > "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> writes:
> >> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 23:07:08 +0100, Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> >>> This quotation from the famous »Wikipedia« online
> >>> phoneme in /'bæd/ 'bad' is realized as a slightly long
> >>> allophone (which could be transcribed as ['bæ?d]),
> >> Which part of what I wrote are
> >> you saying is incorrect and why?
> >
> > No part of what you wrote is incorrect.
> >
> > You just might consider that your definition of
> > »syllable« is not shared by everyone else. That
> > does not mean that your definition is incorrect.
> >
> > For example, in mathematics, several authors give
> > several different definitions of the term »function«.
> > This does not mean that one of those definitions
> > is incorrect. It is common in science that different
> > authors give different definitions of terms.
>
> Surely syllable is a clearly defined term.

Indeed; but it seems you haven't managed to read or comprehend the
whole of any definition.

The dictionary says "an uninterrupted segment of speech consisting of a vowel sound"

That's only half the definition: it says

"an uninterrupted segment of speech consisting of a vowel sound, a
diphthong, or a syllabic consonant, with or without preceding or
following consonant sounds".


Janet.

[Peter T. Daniels]

St. Louis, Missouri, is ['luwIs] except in the song "Meet Me in St. Louis,"
which jocularly uses the "loo-ie" pronunciation to mock the outlanders coming
to the 1904 World's Fair (and Olympics).

The usual nickname for Louis or Lewis is "Louie."

> Was that musician an outlier, or were the rules different in his day?
> Google is not much help here, because the obvious search turns up
> baby-naming threads, and people who discuss naming babies on the web
> seem to give a high priority to finding anti-intuitive pronunciations.
>
> Separate question: I appreciate that AmE is much more influenced by
> Spanish than by French. I don't know a lot about Spanish pronunciation.
> Is the name Luis similar to BrE Lewis, or is it (as in French rules) a
> one-syllable word where the 'u' is a semi-vowel?

Persons named "Luis" would be called [l@'wis] (l-WEES) in English, but again
this often, but not always, becomes Louie.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

And I have no idea what those terms mean. Can someone explain in plain English? The "uninterrupted" is enough anyway, when you say kneel, you are saying nee-yull, your mouth changes shape and makes a second different vowel sound.

--
Watching his date from the corner of his eye while he poured her a drink, the young bachelor said, "Say when."
She replied, "Right after that drink."

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

How on earth did he pronounce it then?

--
For the really paranoid who want to destroy data there's nothing like taking the lid off the disk drive and rearranging the sectors with a hammer.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

Yes. Fee-ling versus fee-yull.

--
I take loads of laxatives when the pollen count rises. It stops me sneezing - I daren't.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

Those are the same as my example. They are all saying nee-yull.

--
On a Continental Flight with a very "senior" flight attendant crew, the pilot said,
"Ladies and gentlemen, we've reached cruising altitude and will be turning down the cabin lights.
This is for your comfort, and to enhance the appearance of your flight attendants."

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

That is almost impossible to pronounce.

--
If you think people aren't creative, watch them try to re-fold a roadmap.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

Can't be bothered finding it, and couldn't be bothered reading something that long.

--
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 04:28:32 +0100, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 2015-Aug-29 07:26, Tough Guy no. 1265 wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:18:59 +0100, charles
>> <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <op.x33i5...@red.lan>, Tough Guy no. 1265 <n...@spam.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> How many syllables are in the name Neil and why? My friend is called
>>>> Neil and disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.
>>>
>>> My late cousin's name was pronounced: "neel"
>>
>> You'll have to be more specific. Is that like the first half of
>> feeling, or like the word feel?
>
> My "feel" has one syllable, but I can do two if I want to put on a rural
> accent.

So if you recorded yourself saying the word feeling, and cut off the recording to remove the ing, it would sound the same as the word feel? I've never heard anyone anywhere (including foreign TV programs) say it like that. And I would find it extremely difficult to pronounce it like that.

--
What Gets Longer When Pulled,
Fits Between your Boobs,
Inserts Neatly in a Hole,
And works best when it is jerked?
A seatbelt.

[Peter Moylan]

On 2015-Aug-29 23:21, Tough Guy no. 1265 wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:30:55 +0100, Janet <nob...@home.org> wrote:
>
>> In article <op.x33nh...@red.lan>, n...@spam.com says...

>>> Surely syllable is a clearly defined term.
>>
>> Indeed; but it seems you haven't managed to read or comprehend the
>> whole of any definition.
>>
>> The dictionary says "an uninterrupted segment of speech consisting
>> of a vowel sound"
>>
>> That's only half the definition: it says
>>
>> "an uninterrupted segment of speech consisting of a vowel sound, a
>> diphthong, or a syllabic consonant, with or without preceding or
>> following consonant sounds".
>
> And I have no idea what those terms mean. Can someone explain in
> plain English?

Well, if you're in this group, you obviously understand what "consonant"
and "diphthong" mean. Otherwise you wouldn't have wandered into an
English usage newsgroup. What else is there to understand?

> The "uninterrupted" is enough anyway, when you say kneel, you are
> saying nee-yull, your mouth changes shape and makes a second
> different vowel sound.

I find myself coming over all Tony.

Yes, that's what happens within cat-swinging distance of your own
dialect region. You can't extrapolate to the rest of the
English-speaking world.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:39:39 +0100, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 2015-Aug-29 23:21, Tough Guy no. 1265 wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:30:55 +0100, Janet <nob...@home.org> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <op.x33nh...@red.lan>, n...@spam.com says...
>
>>>> Surely syllable is a clearly defined term.
>>>
>>> Indeed; but it seems you haven't managed to read or comprehend the
>>> whole of any definition.
>>>
>>> The dictionary says "an uninterrupted segment of speech consisting
>>> of a vowel sound"
>>>
>>> That's only half the definition: it says
>>>
>>> "an uninterrupted segment of speech consisting of a vowel sound, a
>>> diphthong, or a syllabic consonant, with or without preceding or
>>> following consonant sounds".
>>
>> And I have no idea what those terms mean. Can someone explain in
>> plain English?
>
> Well, if you're in this group, you obviously understand what "consonant"
> and "diphthong" mean. Otherwise you wouldn't have wandered into an
> English usage newsgroup. What else is there to understand?

No, I don't know what they mean, why should I have to know them to inhabit this group?

>> The "uninterrupted" is enough anyway, when you say kneel, you are
>> saying nee-yull, your mouth changes shape and makes a second
>> different vowel sound.
>
> I find myself coming over all Tony.
>
> Yes, that's what happens within cat-swinging distance of your own
> dialect region. You can't extrapolate to the rest of the
> English-speaking world.

The example of the word Neil being spoken I linked to on Youtube, and the four examples someone else posted all pronounce it like that.

--
I used to not get along with my mother-in-law, but over the last few
months, I've developed quite an attachment for her. It goes over her
head, and a strap comes down under her chin to keep her mouth shut.

[Peter Moylan]

On 2015-Aug-30 00:43, Tough Guy no. 1265 wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:39:39 +0100, Peter Moylan
> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>> Well, if you're in this group, you obviously understand what "consonant"
>> and "diphthong" mean. Otherwise you wouldn't have wandered into an
>> English usage newsgroup. What else is there to understand?
>
> No, I don't know what they mean, why should I have to know them to
> inhabit this group?

This is a group of people interested in English usage. The group
alt.usage.whocares is down the hall.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 16:31:24 +0100, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 2015-Aug-30 00:43, Tough Guy no. 1265 wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:39:39 +0100, Peter Moylan
>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> Well, if you're in this group, you obviously understand what "consonant"
>>> and "diphthong" mean. Otherwise you wouldn't have wandered into an
>>> English usage newsgroup. What else is there to understand?
>>
>> No, I don't know what they mean, why should I have to know them to
>> inhabit this group?
>
> This is a group of people interested in English usage. The group
> alt.usage.whocares is down the hall.

If I want to know something about DIY, I ask a question in the DIY group. Asking a question kinda implies I don't know everything about DIY.
Same goes for here - if I knew everything about English, I wouldn't need to ask a question in here.

--
What are the "Man's Three Rules When Getting Old?"
Never pass a bathroom, don't waste a hard-on, and never trust a fart.

[GordonD]

On 29/08/2015 14:25, Tough Guy no. 1265 wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 04:27:01 +0100, Peter Moylan
> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-Aug-29 07:45, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> writes:
>>>> I don't know what all those codes mean unfortunately.
>>>
>>> I try to use Kirshenbaum IPA, but since I am not totally
>>> familiar with it myself, I might err sometimes. As far as
>>> I know, most readers of this newsgroup prefer Kirshenbaum
>>> IPA for this newsgroup.
>>>
>>> Usually most of the symbols resemble IPA, /@/ is intended
>>> to be the schwa.
>>>
>>> It should be possible to learn more about IPA and
>>> Kirshenbaum IPA by reading results of search engines.
>>
>> You don't even need a search engine. Pointers to the FAQ are regularly
>> posted to this newsgroup.
>>
>> Unfortunately, many drive-by posters don't bother to read the FAQ.
>
> Can't be bothered finding it, and couldn't be bothered reading something
> that long.
>

Would your lips get tired?
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

It never ceases to amaze me how many childish people are in newsgroups.

--
Women are like small children. You bring a new one home and the ones already there resent it.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

+1


--
athel

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

You do realise that makes you an AOL person? Plus one! Plus one! Me too!!! How pathetic. Can't you write your own sentences?

--
"These stretch pants come with a warranty of one year or 500,000 calories... whichever comes first."

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2015-08-29 16:57:30 +0000, Athel Cornish-Bowden said:

> On 2015-08-29 16:50:18 +0000, GordonD said:
>
>> On 29/08/2015 14:25, Tough Guy no. 1265 wrote:
>>> On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 04:27:01 +0100, Peter Moylan
>>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2015-Aug-29 07:45, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> writes:
>>>>>> I don't know what all those codes mean unfortunately.
>>>>>
>>>>> I try to use Kirshenbaum IPA, but since I am not totally
>>>>> familiar with it myself, I might err sometimes.

I find the best way to get more familiar with Kirshenbaum IPA is to use
it, and to look things up every time whenever necessary. I now find I
rarely need to look up consonants, and I'm getting better with vowels.

[R H Draney]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
news:c1443432-02cb-48ea...@googlegroups.com:

> St. Louis, Missouri, is ['luwIs] except in the song "Meet Me in St.
> Louis," which jocularly uses the "loo-ie" pronunciation to mock the
> outlanders coming to the 1904 World's Fair (and Olympics).

Not far away, St Joseph (the eastern terminus of the Pony Express), is
commonly "Saint Joe" to all but the tourists....r

[Peter T. Daniels]

"St. Joe" is certainly familiar to me, and I've never been within [however
far away from St. Louis it is] miles of it. Is it in the *Route 66* song?

[Charles Bishop]

In article <d4e66c...@mid.individual.net>,

And his finger gets a callus.

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <op.x33ln...@red.lan>,
"Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:45:53 +0100, Stefan Ram <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de>

> wrote:
>
> > "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> writes:
> >> I don't know what all those codes mean unfortunately.
> >
> > I try to use Kirshenbaum IPA, but since I am not totally
> > familiar with it myself, I might err sometimes. As far as
> > I know, most readers of this newsgroup prefer Kirshenbaum
> > IPA for this newsgroup.
> >
> > Usually most of the symbols resemble IPA, /@/ is intended
> > to be the schwa.
> >
> > It should be possible to learn more about IPA and
> > Kirshenbaum IPA by reading results of search engines.
>

> I'm not familiar with any notation for pronunciation. I ain't a linguist.
> Examples are better.

Except that people gave you those, such as "feel" and you couldn't tell
how they pronounced that word, or disagreed that Neil could be
pronounced the same.

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <op.x34y5...@red.lan>,

"Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 16:31:24 +0100, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> > On 2015-Aug-30 00:43, Tough Guy no. 1265 wrote:
> >> On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:39:39 +0100, Peter Moylan
> >> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >>> Well, if you're in this group, you obviously understand what "consonant"
> >>> and "diphthong" mean. Otherwise you wouldn't have wandered into an
> >>> English usage newsgroup. What else is there to understand?
> >>
> >> No, I don't know what they mean, why should I have to know them to
> >> inhabit this group?
> >
> > This is a group of people interested in English usage. The group
> > alt.usage.whocares is down the hall.
>
> If I want to know something about DIY, I ask a question in the DIY group.
> Asking a question kinda implies I don't know everything about DIY.
> Same goes for here - if I knew everything about English, I wouldn't need to
> ask a question in here.

When people answer your questions with an answer you don't like, why,
then, do you argue with them?

Charles, why, oh why

[Charles Bishop]

In article <op.x34wi...@red.lan>,

"Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:39:39 +0100, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> > On 2015-Aug-29 23:21, Tough Guy no. 1265 wrote:
> >> On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:30:55 +0100, Janet <nob...@home.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> In article <op.x33nh...@red.lan>, n...@spam.com says...
> >
> >>>> Surely syllable is a clearly defined term.
> >>>
> >>> Indeed; but it seems you haven't managed to read or comprehend the
> >>> whole of any definition.
> >>>
> >>> The dictionary says "an uninterrupted segment of speech consisting
> >>> of a vowel sound"
> >>>
> >>> That's only half the definition: it says
> >>>
> >>> "an uninterrupted segment of speech consisting of a vowel sound, a
> >>> diphthong, or a syllabic consonant, with or without preceding or
> >>> following consonant sounds".
> >>
> >> And I have no idea what those terms mean. Can someone explain in
> >> plain English?
> >
> > Well, if you're in this group, you obviously understand what "consonant"
> > and "diphthong" mean. Otherwise you wouldn't have wandered into an
> > English usage newsgroup. What else is there to understand?
>
> No, I don't know what they mean, why should I have to know them to inhabit
> this group?

You don't have to know particular terms to inhabit the group (Ghod knows
I don't know a majority of the technical terms used), but, you also then
cannot complain that people use the terms and you can't understand them.
The reason there are specific terms is so a discussion can be concise,
rather than having to use the definition of "diphthong" each time
instead of just using "diphthong".

>
> >> The "uninterrupted" is enough anyway, when you say kneel, you are
> >> saying nee-yull, your mouth changes shape and makes a second
> >> different vowel sound.

Best I can tell, I don't.

> >
> > I find myself coming over all Tony.
> >
> > Yes, that's what happens within cat-swinging distance of your own
> > dialect region. You can't extrapolate to the rest of the
> > English-speaking world.
>
> The example of the word Neil being spoken I linked to on Youtube, and the
> four examples someone else posted all pronounce it like that.

Peter Moylan says they don't sound the same as well, presumably as the
person who put it up on YouTube.

--
cgarles

[Whiskers]

On 2015-08-28, Tough Guy no. 1265 <n...@spam.com> wrote:
> How many syllables are in the name Neil and why? My friend is called
> Neil and disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.

It's his name so what he says, is correct. Even if what he says isn't
always what he says.

Other people with names spelt the same may have different opinions but
that's up to them.

I can think of a few pronunciations of 'Neil', with either one or two
syllables.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Whiskers]

On 2015-08-29, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 2015-Aug-29 08:47, charles wrote:
>> In article <op.x33kk...@red.lan>, Tough Guy no. 1265 <n...@spam.com>
>> wrote:

>>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:20:11 +0100, charles
>>> <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> In article <neil-2015...@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>, Stefan Ram
>>>> <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

>>>>> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> writes:
>>>>>> How many syllables are in the name Neil and why?
>>>>

>>>>> The usual pronunciation is /ni:l/, which makes one syllable.
>>>>

>>>>>> My friend is called Neil and disagrees with me over whether it's one
>>>>>> or two.
>>>>

>>>>> It is possible that your friend is called - for example (I am making
>>>>> this up now!) - /naI.Il/, and that this name is also written »Neil«.
>>>>> So, in this case, there would be two syllables.
>>>>
>>>>> For example, »Louis« is pronounced /lu.Is/, but if the carrier comes
>>>>> from the UK, he might want to be called /lu.I/, or if he comes from
>>>>> french /lwi/.
>>>>
>>>> Louis is my second name and pronounced: loo-is.
>>
>>> That's the only way I know to pronounce Louis (which I would also call
>>> two syllables, your mouth changes shape where you placed the hyphen).
>>> One syllable would make it "loose".
>>
>> A certain Jazz musician didn't pronouce it that way.
>

> A good point. As I understand it, the usual AmE pronunciation of Louis
> is the same as the BrE pronunciation of Lewis, and the usual BrE
> pronunciation of Louis is not very different from the FrE -- sorry, I
> mean French -- pronunciation.
>

> Was that musician an outlier, or were the rules different in his day?
> Google is not much help here, because the obvious search turns up
> baby-naming threads, and people who discuss naming babies on the web
> seem to give a high priority to finding anti-intuitive pronunciations.

Satchmo hailed from New Orleans. The Cajun French influence may have
determined the way he said his name.

> Separate question: I appreciate that AmE is much more influenced by
> Spanish than by French. I don't know a lot about Spanish pronunciation.
> Is the name Luis similar to BrE Lewis, or is it (as in French rules) a
> one-syllable word where the 'u' is a semi-vowel?

Two syllables, whenever I've heard it - like 'Loo eess' so not like any
English or French way of saying Louis or Lewis.

[R H Draney]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in

news:ff59df30-fe44-42ee...@googlegroups.com:

No reason for it to be...Route 66 "goes through St Louis, Joplin,
Missouri" etc, which takes it southwest from Gateway arch; St Joe is north
of Kansas City....r

[Charles Bishop]

In article <XnsA505AFC75B710d...@74.209.136.92>,

R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:

> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
> news:ff59df30-fe44-42ee...@googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 2:42:12 PM UTC-4, R H Draney wrote:
> >> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
> >> news:c1443432-02cb-48ea...@googlegroups.com:
> >
> >> > St. Louis, Missouri, is ['luwIs] except in the song "Meet Me in St.
> >> > Louis," which jocularly uses the "loo-ie" pronunciation to mock the
> >> > outlanders coming to the 1904 World's Fair (and Olympics).
> >>
> >> Not far away, St Joseph (the eastern terminus of the Pony Express),
> >> is commonly "Saint Joe" to all but the tourists....r
> >
> > "St. Joe" is certainly familiar to me, and I've never been within
> > [however far away from St. Louis it is] miles of it. Is it in the
> > *Route 66* song?
>
> No reason for it to be...Route 66 "goes through St Louis, Joplin,
> Missouri" etc, which takes it southwest from Gateway arch; St Joe is north
> of Kansas City....r

Goes through one of my home towns, as well. It was main street or main
street was it. There was, I think, a Phillips 66 gas station on one
corner, which seemed logical to my child's mind.

--
charles

[Peter Moylan]

This topic arises over and over again. Saying that a word "sounds like"
or "rhymes with" another word works only in your own speech community.
Once you're doing comparisons with other countries or regions the whole
system collapses. That's why it's generally agreed in this newsgroup
that there's no point in talking about pronunciation unless you have a
notation for pronunciation.

Saying, for example, that "Neil" is pronounced exactly like "kneel" --
which I think is true in most versions of English -- doesn't communicate
any information if the person you're writing to doesn't know how you
pronounce either of those words.

[Peter Moylan]

<like>

[Richard Tobin]

In article <ctbishop-079E83...@news.individual.net>,

Charles Bishop <ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>When people answer your questions with an answer you don't like, why,
>then, do you argue with them?

Because he's a troll, as I pointed out when he popped up here several
weeks ago. Why do you keep on feeding him?

-- Richard

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

Incorrect, when people answer my questions with an answer that doesn't make sense, I argue with them.

> Charles, why, oh why

Please stop talking to your imaginary friend.

--
Did you hear about the new instant lottery game in India?
You scratch the ticket and if the dot matches the one on your forehead, you win a convenience store in the US.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

I'm not the one who has difficulty remembering the line I'm on with wide lines.

--
During training exercises, the lieutenant driving down a muddy back road encountered another car stuck in the mud with a red faced colonel at the wheel. "Your jeep stuck, sir?" asked the lieutenant as he pulled alongside.
"Nope," replied the colonel, coming over and handing him the keys, "*Yours* is."

[Sneaky O. Possum]

charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:54fa72e1...@charleshope.demon.co.uk:

> In article <op.x33kk...@red.lan>, Tough Guy no. 1265
> <n...@spam.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:20:11 +0100, charles
>> <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> > In article <neil-2015...@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>, Stefan
>> > Ram

>> > <r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> >> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> writes:

>> >> >How many syllables are in the name Neil and why?
>> >
>> >> The usual pronunciation is /ni:l/, which makes one syllable.
>> >
>> >> >My friend is called Neil and disagrees with me over whether it's
>> >> >one or two.
>> >
>> >> It is possible that your friend is called - for example (I am
>> >> making this up now!) - /naI.Il/, and that this name is also
>> >> written »Neil«. So, in this case, there would be two syllables.
>> >
>> >> For example, »Louis« is pronounced /lu.Is/, but if the carrier
>> >> comes from the UK, he might want to be called /lu.I/, or if he
>> >> comes from french /lwi/.
>> >
>> > Louis is my second name and pronounced: loo-is.
>
>> That's the only way I know to pronounce Louis (which I would also
>> call two syllables, your mouth changes shape where you placed the
>> hyphen). One syllable would make it "loose".
>
> A certain Jazz musician didn't pronouce it that way.

In fact, Mr. Armstrong pronounced his name /'lu.Is/: he considered the
common alternative pronunciation to be a nickname, and spelled it either
'Louie' (as on his 1933 recording 'Laughin' Louie') or 'Lewie.' Listen
to the way he pronounces it in the 1963 studio recording of 'Hello,
Dolly!' (about 0:14):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVHkOzVggtI
--
S.O.P.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

Still 2 syllables though :-)

--
19 Brits have died in the last 3 years believing that christmas decorations were chocolate.

[Mr. B1ack]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:24:33 +0100, "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 02:46:21 +0100, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:32:38 +0100, "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:25:53 +0100, Dr. Jai Maharaj <alt.fan.j...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <op.x33i5...@red.lan>,
>>>> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> posted:

>>>>>
>>>>> How many syllables are in the name Neil

>>>>> and why? My friend is called Neil and

>>>>> disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.
>>>>

>>>> One syllable. As to why, check this out:
>>>>
>>>> 5 Ways to Count Syllables
>>>>
>>>> http://www.howmanysyllables.com/howtocountsyllables
>>>
>>> I have read that. Neil has two distinct vowel sounds. Nee, followed by ull.
>>
>>
>> Not in dixieland. It'd be "Neel", not "Ne-Ull".
>
>That is almost impossible to pronounce.


"Nee-Ull" or "Neel" ? The latter, hot-climate, "lazy"
way is easy - and clearly one syllable.

The more new-england (or jolly olde BBC) way - "Nee-Ul" -
is clearly two syllables.

So the truth depends on where you are.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 18:10:35 +0100, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:24:33 +0100, "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 02:46:21 +0100, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:32:38 +0100, "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:25:53 +0100, Dr. Jai Maharaj <alt.fan.j...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <op.x33i5...@red.lan>,
>>>>> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> posted:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How many syllables are in the name Neil
>>>>>> and why? My friend is called Neil and
>>>>>> disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.
>>>>>
>>>>> One syllable. As to why, check this out:
>>>>>
>>>>> 5 Ways to Count Syllables
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.howmanysyllables.com/howtocountsyllables
>>>>
>>>> I have read that. Neil has two distinct vowel sounds. Nee, followed by ull.
>>>
>>>
>>> Not in dixieland. It'd be "Neel", not "Ne-Ull".
>>
>> That is almost impossible to pronounce.
>
>
> "Nee-Ull" or "Neel" ? The latter, hot-climate, "lazy"
> way is easy - and clearly one syllable.

I'm not sure we're thinking of the same sound, but I find it difficult to put an l after an ee. Even the animal "eel" is pronounce "eeyul" by everyone I've ever heard say it. Basically like "eagle", without the g.

> The more new-england (or jolly olde BBC) way - "Nee-Ul" -
> is clearly two syllables.
>
> So the truth depends on where you are.

Show me an example of it being spoken with one syllable on the internet.

--
Debugger: a tool to remove evidence of rear entry.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

If I don't need to know the terms, then others should expect to have to explain their explanations in plain English.

>> >> The "uninterrupted" is enough anyway, when you say kneel, you are
>> >> saying nee-yull, your mouth changes shape and makes a second
>> >> different vowel sound.
>
> Best I can tell, I don't.

I have never heard kneel said with one syllable, except perhaps a French woman trying to speak English.

>> > I find myself coming over all Tony.
>> >
>> > Yes, that's what happens within cat-swinging distance of your own
>> > dialect region. You can't extrapolate to the rest of the
>> > English-speaking world.
>>
>> The example of the word Neil being spoken I linked to on Youtube, and the
>> four examples someone else posted all pronounce it like that.
>
> Peter Moylan says they don't sound the same as well, presumably as the
> person who put it up on YouTube.

All five clearly have 2 syllables. There are TWO distinct vowel sounds.

--
Saying that she is promiscuous is an understatement.
She'll go zero to sixty-nine in under fifteen seconds."

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

Well me and him both pronounce it the same way.

--
FREE ONE DOLLAR BILLS!
(Please send $4.95 to cover posting and handling)

[Whiskers]

On 2015-08-30, Tough Guy no. 1265 <n...@spam.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 00:20:33 +0100, Whiskers
> <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-08-28, Tough Guy no. 1265 <n...@spam.com> wrote:
>>> How many syllables are in the name Neil and why? My friend is
>>> called Neil and disagrees with me over whether it's one or two.
>>
>> It's his name so what he says, is correct. Even if what he says
>> isn't always what he says.
>>
>> Other people with names spelt the same may have different opinions
>> but that's up to them.
>>
>> I can think of a few pronunciations of 'Neil', with either one or two
>> syllables.
>
> Well me and him both pronounce it the same way.

Then counting is what one or the other of you is getting wrong.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

In the Youtube link I posted, how many syllables do you count?

--
Peter is listening to The Who - Behind Blue Eyes

[Mr. B1ack]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 18:20:28 +0100, "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com>

Um ... doesn't work on usenet :-)

I'd suggest perusing youtube stuff about Neil Patrick Harris
done by Georgia/Alabama/Mississippi/SC TV people, maybe
movie or TV reviewers. "Neil DeGrasse Tyson" would be
another popular "Neil" name.

Of course in THE deep-south anthem "Sweet Home Alabama",
as SUNG, the name was "Nee-Ull" ....

But normally it's gonna sound just like "Kneel" down south,
one syllable.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

You know how to paste a link, right? There must be someone speaking the word kneel or Neil with one syllable somewhere....

> I'd suggest perusing youtube stuff about Neil Patrick Harris
> done by Georgia/Alabama/Mississippi/SC TV people, maybe
> movie or TV reviewers. "Neil DeGrasse Tyson" would be
> another popular "Neil" name.
>
> Of course in THE deep-south anthem "Sweet Home Alabama",
> as SUNG, the name was "Nee-Ull" ....
>
> But normally it's gonna sound just like "Kneel" down south,
> one syllable.

--
More people in the UK are injured by standing on upturned mains plugs than by electric shocks.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <op.x367k...@red.lan>,

Wait, what? Really. People here should stop using language that is
helpful to them in discussing a subject that uses such terms so that
you, who doesn't want to be bothered learning the terms, won't have to
trouble yourself?

While this is a yes/no question, "yes" isn't the correct answer.

>
> >> >> The "uninterrupted" is enough anyway, when you say kneel, you are
> >> >> saying nee-yull, your mouth changes shape and makes a second
> >> >> different vowel sound.
> >
> > Best I can tell, I don't.
>
> I have never heard kneel said with one syllable, except perhaps a French
> woman trying to speak English.

People have, I think provided links to such speech. Ah, I see there was
mention below.

>
> >> > I find myself coming over all Tony.
> >> >
> >> > Yes, that's what happens within cat-swinging distance of your own
> >> > dialect region. You can't extrapolate to the rest of the
> >> > English-speaking world.
> >>
> >> The example of the word Neil being spoken I linked to on Youtube, and the
> >> four examples someone else posted all pronounce it like that.
> >
> > Peter Moylan says they don't sound the same as well, presumably as the
> > person who put it up on YouTube.
>
> All five clearly have 2 syllables. There are TWO distinct vowel sounds.

Why then, did Peter Moylan link to a site that he says has different
pronunciations?

--
charles,

[Peter Moylan]

Actually, I don't think he's a troll. He's more in the Jenn category:
poorly educated, strongly opinionated, and out of his depth whenever the
topic is one that required intelligent thought.

Not that that changes your basic point. It's a waste of time trying to
discuss anything with him.

[Mr. B1ack]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 22:54:11 +0100, "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com>

You assume my time isn't worth anything it seems ....

So, figure I'm lying and start perusing all those videos
youself .... and if you don't find any "kneel" pronunciations
then you can feel all superior and everything ....

But my cousin ... everybody calls him "kneel", not "nee-ul".

[GordonD]

The one you posted. I've listened to all four examples over and over
and I just can't hear two syllables in any of them. Apart from the
surname, of course.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

[Charles Bishop]

In article <ms0kgk$gdv$1...@dont-email.me>,

But if you want an extended "Is Not", "Is Too", then he's your man.

--
charles

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 14:41:49 +0100, GordonD <g.d...@btinternet.com>
wrote:

To me, most pronunciations of kneel/neil/neal have two vowel sounds: ee
followed by a schwa.

I think that technically the two vowels form a diphthong and are
therefore classified as monosyllabic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphthong


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

[GordonD]

ObAue - the British retort to "Is Not" would be "Is So!"

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 14:41:49 +0100, GordonD <g.d...@btinternet.com> wrote:

Knee is one syllable. You have to admit that changing this to kneel adds a vowel sound after than the existing ee. It is almost impossible to make an L sound directly after an ee sound.

--
Hiroshima '45 Chernobyl '86 Windows '95

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

The dictionary definition I read of a syllable is ONE vowel sound.

--
An archaeologist is the best husband a woman can have. The older she gets the more interested in her he is.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

Kneel is also pronounced nee-ull. By everybody, everywhere.

--
Did you hear about the little Indian chief who didn't know the difference between heads and tails?
He was always bringing home scalps with holes in them.

[GordonD]

No, it doesn't.

> It is almost impossible
> to make an L sound directly after an ee sound.

No, it isn't.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

I have never ever heard anyone simply add L to the end of knee. If you took a recording of the word knee, then added an L sound to it, it would sound very odd, and rather French. Everyone makes a Y sound in the middle, to allow the mouth to change shape for the L.

--
If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <op.x38mz...@red.lan>,
"Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> wrote:

[snip to get to the troll(?)'s pronouncement]

>
> Kneel is also pronounced nee-ull. By everybody, everywhere.

It's not, you know. People have given you several examples.

charles, which you continually ignore, so that you can be right

[Charles Bishop]

In article <d4j7ff...@mid.individual.net>,

"No it's not."

--
charles

[GordonD]

Is this the five-minute argument or the full half-hour?

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 16:30:12 +0100, Charles Bishop <ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> In article <op.x38mz...@red.lan>,
> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> wrote:
>
> [snip to get to the troll(?)'s pronouncement]
>>
>> Kneel is also pronounced nee-ull. By everybody, everywhere.
>
> It's not, you know. People have given you several examples.

Someone gave four examples on a webpage, all of them backed up my two syllables.

--
The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a bowling ball wouldn't.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 16:30:45 +0100, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <iri8ua9t7kt81uk9d...@4ax.com>

> I've only ever met Kneels.

Kneel is pronounced with two syllables, just like Neil. You'd get your tongue in a twist trying to say it with only one, and probably end up saying Neela. If you just say neel, you'd leave your tongue stuck on your front teeth. Removing it makes a sound.

--
The most effective way to remember your wife's birthday is to forget it once.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <d4jaqb...@mid.individual.net>,

I only paid for five minutes; if you'd like to chip in, we can go longer.

--
charles

[bill van]

In article <op.x38ou...@red.lan>,

"Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 16:30:12 +0100, Charles Bishop <ctbi...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> > In article <op.x38mz...@red.lan>,
> > "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> wrote:
> >
> > [snip to get to the troll(?)'s pronouncement]
> >>
> >> Kneel is also pronounced nee-ull. By everybody, everywhere.
> >
> > It's not, you know. People have given you several examples.
>
> Someone gave four examples on a webpage, all of them backed up my two
> syllables.

That was me, and I posted them as examples of "neil" spoken as a single
syllable.

You make the error of assuming that the whole world speaks as you speak,
and hears what your hear. It's not so.
--
bill

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 16:07:41 +0100, "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com>

Yes, but for this purpose it can be a diphthong: an uninterrupted vowel
sound that starts as one vowel and ends as another:
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Diphthong

[Charles Bishop]

In article <op.x38ou...@red.lan>,

"Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 16:30:12 +0100, Charles Bishop <ctbi...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> > In article <op.x38mz...@red.lan>,
> > "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> wrote:
> >
> > [snip to get to the troll(?)'s pronouncement]
> >>
> >> Kneel is also pronounced nee-ull. By everybody, everywhere.
> >
> > It's not, you know. People have given you several examples.
>
> Someone gave four examples on a webpage, all of them backed up my two
> syllables.

Others said there was only one syllable. Of course you dismiss this.

--
charles

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 22:05:47 +0100, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <op.x38ow...@red.lan>

> Not in my earshot it isn't. NOAD agrees:
>
> kneel |nil|
>
> One syllable. Always.

I'm 100% sure that we both pronounce kneel the same way, so the difference between us is what we call a syllable. I call a syllable ONE UNIQUE vowel sound. Knee has one EE vowel sound. Adding the L introduces an other vowel sound - "ull". You don't pronounce kneel the same way as kneeling without the ing. Kneeling is pronounced knee-ling, not kneel-ing.

--
There are two people I trust to use my computer. Myself and you are not the other one.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 22:05:47 +0100, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <op.x38ow...@red.lan>

> Not in my earshot it isn't. NOAD agrees:
>
> kneel |nil|
>
> One syllable. Always.

Tell me, how many syllables do you hear in the word "previously"?

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

They gave no examples.

--
Many years ago in Scotland, a new game was invented. It was ruled "Gentlemen Only...Ladies Forbidden"...and thus the word GOLF entered into the English language.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

An unnecessary complication.

--
Interesting fact number 923:
Half the world's population has seen at least one Bond movie.

[Tough Guy no. 1265]

You posted four examples which AGREE with the way I say Neil.

What we disagree over is what a syllable is defined as. I read the dictionary, and it is a single vowel sound. For some reason you lot seem to think you can have two vowels in one syllable.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <op.x3854...@red.lan>,

Which you don't accept, why? It's an accepted part of English
pronunciation and has been studied and defined. You don't like to accept
things which go against your own theories, do you? Most people don't but
the more intelligent and flexible are able to change their minds when
presented with new information. Others just dig their heels in,
mule-like.

charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <op.x3853...@red.lan>,

"Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 20:45:34 +0100, Charles Bishop <ctbi...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> > In article <op.x38ou...@red.lan>,
> > "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 16:30:12 +0100, Charles Bishop
> >> <ctbi...@earthlink.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article <op.x38mz...@red.lan>,
> >> > "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > [snip to get to the troll(?)'s pronouncement]
> >> >>
> >> >> Kneel is also pronounced nee-ull. By everybody, everywhere.
> >> >
> >> > It's not, you know. People have given you several examples.
> >>
> >> Someone gave four examples on a webpage, all of them backed up my two
> >> syllables.
> >
> > Others said there was only one syllable. Of course you dismiss this.
>
> They gave no examples.

They gave you examples which you listened to because you hear only what
you want to hear. It's normal, but not the best personality trait to
have.

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <op.x384b...@red.lan>,

What information do you hope to get from asking about a different word?

--
charoles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <op.x383w...@red.lan>,

Diphthong mean anything to you?

--
should, it's been mentioned enough

[Peter Moylan]

"Oh yes it is."

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[GordonD]

On 31/08/2015 23:02, Tough Guy no. 1265 wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 19:03:48 +0100, bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> In article <op.x38ou...@red.lan>,
>> "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 16:30:12 +0100, Charles Bishop
>>> <ctbi...@earthlink.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > In article <op.x38mz...@red.lan>,
>>> > "Tough Guy no. 1265" <n...@spam.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > [snip to get to the troll(?)'s pronouncement]
>>> >>
>>> >> Kneel is also pronounced nee-ull. By everybody, everywhere.
>>> >
>>> > It's not, you know. People have given you several examples.
>>>
>>> Someone gave four examples on a webpage, all of them backed up my two
>>> syllables.
>>
>> That was me, and I posted them as examples of "neil" spoken as a single
>> syllable.
>>
>> You make the error of assuming that the whole world speaks as you speak,
>> and hears what your hear. It's not so.
>
> You posted four examples which AGREE with the way I say Neil.

Not the way I hear it.