White-tablecloth restaurant

[occam]

"Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
catering company."

This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
and beverage') business.

The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!)

I thought I would compile a hierarchy of restaurants to understand
'white tablecloth' better:

- 'food-trucks' (and other 'take-away's): a paper-napkin is all you get.
- 'greasy spoon' (motorway cafs): a bare tabletop, with paper napkins.
- fast-food restaurants (self-service e.g. McDonalds, with
paper-tablecloths, paper-napkins)
- family run restaurants (less formal, table service - but with
non-white tablecloths. Cloth napkins.)
- pop-up restaurants (trendy, with table service. Colour of Tablecloth
unknown?)
- white-tablecloth (fine & casual dining): white-tablecloth (by
definition); white cloth-napkins.
- ...
- Michelin-star restaurant (1, 2,...star); starched white tablecloths.
Ditto napkins.

(All comments - written on the back of a paper-napkin - to be sent to me
c/o the 'Greasy Spoon Caf'.)

[Snidely]

on 9/15/2022, occam supposed :

> - fast-food restaurants (self-service e.g. McDonalds, with
> paper-tablecloths, paper-napkins)

I have not encountered paper tablecloths (or a hyphen in that phrase)
at McDonalds or other fast food restaurants. If you get a serving
tray, there will likely be a place mat on the tray and the service
items and food will be placed on the place mat.

In-N-Out will give you a place mat even if you're in the drive-thru but
have specified eat-in-car (also, your food will be in a tray box rather
than a take-home bag).

/dps


--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in
2015.

[occam]

On 15/09/2022 11:37, Snidely wrote:
> on 9/15/2022, occam supposed :
>
>> -  fast-food restaurants (self-service e.g. McDonalds, with
>> paper-tablecloths, paper-napkins)
>
> I have not encountered paper tablecloths (or a hyphen in that phrase) at
> McDonalds or other fast food restaurants.  If you get a serving tray,
> there will likely be a place mat on the tray and the service items and
> food will be placed on the place mat.
>

I have not been to a McDonalds for over 40 years. However I have seen
paper tablecloths in similar establishments, which get yanked away and a
new one slid into place. It is more than a place mat (or tray mat). A
disposable surface, which covers the whole of the tabletop.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 2:16:13 AM UTC-6, occam wrote:
> "Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
> five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
> jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
> dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
> catering company."
>
> This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
> and beverage') business.
>
> The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
> given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
> frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!)

It looks as if you might think those were examples of white-tablecloth
restaurants, so I'll mention that they're not. The author has run twelve
businesses in the last twenty-one years. I hope he or she left them as
successes.

(Are there museum cafés that aren't modern?)

> I thought I would compile a hierarchy of restaurants to understand
> 'white tablecloth' better:
>
> - 'food-trucks' (and other 'take-away's): a paper-napkin is all you get.
> - 'greasy spoon' (motorway cafs): a bare tabletop, with paper napkins.
> - fast-food restaurants (self-service e.g. McDonalds, with
> paper-tablecloths, paper-napkins)
> - family run restaurants (less formal, table service - but with
> non-white tablecloths. Cloth napkins.)
> - pop-up restaurants (trendy, with table service. Colour of Tablecloth
> unknown?)
> - white-tablecloth (fine & casual dining): white-tablecloth (by
> definition); white cloth-napkins.
> - ...
> - Michelin-star restaurant (1, 2,...star); starched white tablecloths.
> Ditto napkins.

I've seen "white tablecloth", and that's how I understand it. Well, I've
never noticed starch, but I don't think I've ever eaten in a Michelin-
star restaurant.

--
Jerry Friedman

[bert]

On Thursday, 15 September 2022 at 10:37:55 UTC+1, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> --
> "First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
> I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in 2015.

That quote is from some much earlier source. I remember
my father saying just such a thing fifty-odd years ago.

[occam]

On 15/09/2022 15:44, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 2:16:13 AM UTC-6, occam wrote:
>> "Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
>> five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
>> jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
>> dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
>> catering company."
>>
>> This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
>> and beverage') business.
>>
>> The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
>> given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
>> frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!)
>
> It looks as if you might think those were examples of white-tablecloth
> restaurants, so I'll mention that they're not. The author has run twelve
> businesses in the last twenty-one years.

My opinion aside, it is the author who thinks that. "Over the course of

the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated five white-tablecloth

restaurants" and then he lists the examples, amongst which the example I
quoted.

>
> (Are there museum cafés that aren't modern?)

'Modern museum cafes' I interpret as the cafes of modern museums.
Nevertheless, I suspect the British Museum (first opened in 1759), at
some stage had a cafe which was not what we consider 'modern'. What is
the issue here?

>
>> I thought I would compile a hierarchy of restaurants to understand
>> 'white tablecloth' better:
>>

<snip>

>
> I've seen "white tablecloth", and that's how I understand it. Well, I've
> never noticed starch, but I don't think I've ever eaten in a Michelin-
> star restaurant.
>

Neither have I. However, I have dined in a high-class hotel restaurant
in London, where I felt the starch stiffness on my legs as the
tablecloth rubbed against my trousers. (Unfolding my napkins was also a
stiff affair.)

[Hibou]

Le 15/09/2022 à 09:16, occam a écrit :
>
> "Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
> five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
> jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
> dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
> catering company."
>
> This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
> and beverage') business.
>
> The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
> given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling

> frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!) [...]

Some restaurants launder their tablecloths and some don't, I suppose.

Are there whiter-than-white-tablecloth restaurants? (There's always room
at the top.)

[occam]

(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

[occam]

Here is the same quote, attributed to George Burns.

https://www.azquotes.com/quote/541261

The BrE version I have heard says: "The first thing I do each morning is
to read the obituaries in the Times. If I don’t see my name there, I go
make breakfast. "

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 8:17:22 AM UTC-6, occam wrote:
> On 15/09/2022 15:44, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 2:16:13 AM UTC-6, occam wrote:
> >> "Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
> >> five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
> >> jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
> >> dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
> >> catering company."
> >>
> >> This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
> >> and beverage') business.
> >>
> >> The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
> >> given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
> >> frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!)
> >
> > It looks as if you might think those were examples of white-tablecloth
> > restaurants, so I'll mention that they're not. The author has run twelve
> > businesses in the last twenty-one years.

> My opinion aside, it is the author who thinks that. "Over the course of
> the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated five white-tablecloth
> restaurants" and then he lists the examples, amongst which the example I
> quoted.

No, he doesn't think that. The semicolons separate items in a list, since
one item contains commas. The numbers don't match--what are the five
examples? And as you pointed out, nothing listed after "white-tablecloth
restaurants" is a white-tablecloth restaurant.

> > (Are there museum cafés that aren't modern?)

> 'Modern museum cafes' I interpret as the cafes of modern museums.
> Nevertheless, I suspect the British Museum (first opened in 1759), at
> some stage had a cafe which was not what we consider 'modern'.

Is the modernity of the museum relevant to running the café? And he's
only talking about the last 21 years, so what the British Museum had in
previous centuries is not relevant.

> What is the issue here?

I'm wondering why he said "modern".

> >> I thought I would compile a hierarchy of restaurants to understand
> >> 'white tablecloth' better:
> >>
> <snip>
> >
> > I've seen "white tablecloth", and that's how I understand it. Well, I've
> > never noticed starch, but I don't think I've ever eaten in a Michelin-
> > star restaurant.
> >
> Neither have I. However, I have dined in a high-class hotel restaurant
> in London, where I felt the starch stiffness on my legs as the
> tablecloth rubbed against my trousers. (Unfolding my napkins was also a
> stiff affair.)

Huh. I don't see that as an advantage, but I guess I don't know.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

Maybe the British actor A. E. Matthews, or an American contractor named
Bill Comte, as I've mentioned to Snidely.

https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/the_first_thing_i_do_each_morning

--
Jerry Friedman

[musika]

On 15/09/2022 15:17, occam wrote:
> On 15/09/2022 15:44, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> It looks as if you might think those were examples of white-tablecloth
>> restaurants, so I'll mention that they're not. The author has run twelve
>> businesses in the last twenty-one years.
>
> My opinion aside, it is the author who thinks that. "Over the course of
> the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated five white-tablecloth
> restaurants" and then he lists the examples, amongst which the example I
> quoted.
>

I disagree. They are not examples but seven other establishments that
they have opened.


--
Ray
UK

[Ken Blake]

Yes. Reading it more carefully, I see that you're right. But at first,
I thought the same thing occam did.

[Silvano]

occam hat am 15.09.2022 um 16:42 geschrieben:

> (see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
> been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?

Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

[Tony Cooper]

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.

There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
Eastern, but could be Chinese.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[Tony Cooper]

I met a man in Chicago who told me an interesting tale about Chicago
restaurants and tablecloths.

In the early 1950s, he drove a truck for a Chicago laundry service
that picked up, laundered, and delivered cloth tablecloths, napkins,
and other items for restaurants.

He said the laundry was "mob owned". Restaurants who hestitated to
use their service experienced fires, random inspections from the
health department, and other disruptions. Any other firm attempting
to get the restaurant's laundry contract experienced flattened tires
on their truck or employees who suddenly decided to seek other
employment.

I had no reason to doubt his story.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 10:17:22 AM UTC-4, occam wrote:
> On 15/09/2022 15:44, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 2:16:13 AM UTC-6, occam wrote:

> >> "Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
> >> five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
> >> jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
> >> dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
> >> catering company."
> >>
> >> This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
> >> and beverage') business.
> >>
> >> The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
> >> given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
> >> frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!)
> >
> > It looks as if you might think those were examples of white-tablecloth
> > restaurants, so I'll mention that they're not. The author has run twelve
> > businesses in the last twenty-one years.
>
> My opinion aside, it is the author who thinks that. "Over the course of
> the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated five white-tablecloth
> restaurants" and then he lists the examples, amongst which the example I
> quoted.

That would only be the interpretation if there were a colon after "white-
tablecloth restaurants."

It is manifestly a list of six genres of food service, as is made perfectly
clear by the use of semicolons (occasioned by the list of items within
one of the entries).

> > (Are there museum cafés that aren't modern?)
>
> 'Modern museum cafes' I interpret as the cafes of modern museums.

Such as the Museum of Modern Art, the Guggenheim, the Whitney?

> Nevertheless, I suspect the British Museum (first opened in 1759), at
> some stage had a cafe which was not what we consider 'modern'. What is
> the issue here?

The Jewish Museum until covid had a café operated by Russ and
Daughters, the Lower East Side appetizing store. The store's on-
premises restaurant has reopened since we were considering
visiting the Jewish Museum (the one on Fifth Avenue, not the
Museum of Jewish Heritage, which is in Battery Park and deals
mostly with Holocaust materials) and learned that its café was
closed. I don't know whether it has since reopened.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 11:29:16 AM UTC-4, Silvano wrote:
> occam hat am 15.09.2022 um 16:42 geschrieben:

> > (see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
> > been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)
>
> Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?

Now it can be told: "occam" is the pseudonym of Django Reinhart.
Or, perhaps, the celebrated Chicago baseball pitcher Mordecai
"Three-finger" Brown.

> Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
> many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
> hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
> the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
> Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

I point with my right index finger to the left fingers. Seems natural
for a right-handed person.

[occam]

From the article:

"Most Chinese people, and many North Americans, also use the closed-fist
system, but begin counting on an index finger, rather than the thumb."

So, you could also be a North American.

I, on the other hand, am neither Chinese nor N. American but still count
with a closed fist, index finger first. Except I start with my left
hand, because I am right handed.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 15.09.2022 kl. 17.29 skrev Silvano:

> Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
> many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
> hand?

I start with my right hand, with the little finger and I start with an
open hand. My ancestors quite a long way back are all Danish.

I am primarily right-handed but can relatively easily switch to my left
for many tasks.

--
Bertel

[Snidely]

occam formulated the question :

I've seen that at barbecue places, and at a certain pasta chain, and
also at "pancake breakfast" special events in parks. I've not seen
that at a fast food emporium.

/dps

--
I have always been glad we weren't killed that night. I do not know
any particular reason, but I have always been glad.
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

[Snidely]

bert used thar keyboard to writen:

Your father pre-plagarized Carl Reiner. AUE isn't the first place
PPization has happened.

/dps

--
"This is all very fine, but let us not be carried away be excitement,
but ask calmly, how does this person feel about in in his cooler
moments next day, with six or seven thousand feet of snow and stuff on
top of him?"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 9:41:02 AM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano
> <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>
> >occam hat am 15.09.2022 um 16:42 geschrieben:
> >> (see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
> >> been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)
> >
> >
> >Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
> >
> >Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
> >many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
> >hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
> >the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
> >Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?
> In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
> left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
>
> There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
> closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
> thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

We all need to be tolerant of each other's ways, especially in matters that
are irrelevant to morality and effectiveness, but using your thumb in the
middle of the count is just wrong.

> Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
> Eastern, but could be Chinese.
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

I use the correct North American method: (loosely) closed fist, index,
middle, ring, little, thumb. Right hand first usually, I think. (I'm right-handed.)

--
Jerry Friedman

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

There is, indeed a caff on usenet;

xpost added for fun

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[RustyHinge]

On 15/09/2022 19:11, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:16:08 +0200
> occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>
>> "Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
>> five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
>> jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
>> dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
>> catering company."
>>
>> This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
>> and beverage') business.
>>
>> The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
>> given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
>> frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!)

Frozen custard is virtually 'hokey-pokey', wot me muvver useter molish
just after the whoar. IIRC the trick was to whisk the custard as it was
beginning to freeze, or it would freeze into a big custardy lolly.

Toofsome, so it was - ie, you get to keep some of your toofs.

>> I thought I would compile a hierarchy of restaurants to understand
>> 'white tablecloth' better:
>>
>> - 'food-trucks' (and other 'take-away's): a paper-napkin is all you get.
>> - 'greasy spoon' (motorway cafs): a bare tabletop, with paper napkins.
>> - fast-food restaurants (self-service e.g. McDonalds, with
>> paper-tablecloths, paper-napkins)
>> - family run restaurants (less formal, table service - but with
>> non-white tablecloths. Cloth napkins.)
>> - pop-up restaurants (trendy, with table service. Colour of Tablecloth
>> unknown?)
>> - white-tablecloth (fine & casual dining): white-tablecloth (by
>> definition); white cloth-napkins.

Frozen custard is virtually 'hokey-pokey', wot me muvver useter molish
just after the whoar. IIRC the trick was to whisk the custard as it was
beginning to freeze, or it would freeze into a big custardy lolly.

>> - ...
>> - Michelin-star restaurant (1, 2,...star); starched white tablecloths.
>> Ditto napkins.
>>
>> (All comments - written on the back of a paper-napkin - to be sent to me
>> c/o the 'Greasy Spoon Caf'.)
>
> There is, indeed a caff on usenet;
>
> xpost added for fun

Oh, hokey-cokey, cokey,
Oh hokey-pokey pokey...

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:07:50 -0700, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>occam formulated the question :
>> On 15/09/2022 11:37, Snidely wrote:
>>> on 9/15/2022, occam supposed :
>>>
>>>> -  fast-food restaurants (self-service e.g. McDonalds, with
>>>> paper-tablecloths, paper-napkins)
>>>
>>> I have not encountered paper tablecloths (or a hyphen in that phrase) at
>>> McDonalds or other fast food restaurants.  If you get a serving tray,
>>> there will likely be a place mat on the tray and the service items and
>>> food will be placed on the place mat.
>>>
>>
>> I have not been to a McDonalds for over 40 years. However I have seen
>> paper tablecloths in similar establishments, which get yanked away and a
>> new one slid into place. It is more than a place mat (or tray mat). A
>> disposable surface, which covers the whole of the tabletop.
>
>I've seen that at barbecue places, and at a certain pasta chain, and
>also at "pancake breakfast" special events in parks. I've not seen
>that at a fast food emporium.

Nor have I. The places where I've seen it most often have been in
Maryland where crabs are served with a mallet to break the shells
open.

If I remember correctly they weren't really paper tablecloths, but
rather a length from a roll of brown wrapping paper.

[Ken Blake]

Or, if you're a classical guitarist, on the right hand it's I, M, A,
C, P.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 9:41:02 AM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano
>> <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>>
>> >occam hat am 15.09.2022 um 16:42 geschrieben:
>> >> (see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
>> >> been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)
>> >
>> >
>> >Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
>> >
>> >Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
>> >many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
>> >hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
>> >the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
>> >Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?
>> In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
>> left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
>>
>> There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
>> closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
>> thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

I should also point out that the most common reason for me to hold up
fingers is to signal how many people are in my party to be seated at a
restaurant. Signaling "two" is as above, but signaling "four" skips
the thumb in the sequence above.

>
>We all need to be tolerant of each other's ways, especially in matters that
>are irrelevant to morality and effectiveness, but using your thumb in the
>middle of the count is just wrong.
>
>> Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
>> Eastern, but could be Chinese.
>>
>> https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain
>
>I use the correct North American method: (loosely) closed fist, index,
>middle, ring, little, thumb. Right hand first usually, I think. (I'm right-handed.)

I have no idea of how dextrous you are, but when I try to raise my
ring finger from a closed fist, the pinkie wants to rise with it.
Hoping that signaling three is sufficient, I do the thumb instead of
the ring finger.

Oddly enough, if I start the count with the pinkie, the ring finger
remains stationary.

I do object to your use of "correct" there. I'm not going to go
ballistic over it, but I don't think there's "correct" or "incorrect"
method.

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 15:18:50 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
><jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 9:41:02 AM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano
>>> <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>>>
>>> >occam hat am 15.09.2022 um 16:42 geschrieben:
>>> >> (see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
>>> >> been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
>>> >
>>> >Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
>>> >many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
>>> >hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
>>> >the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
>>> >Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?
>>> In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
>>> left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
>>>
>>> There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
>>> closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
>>> thumb, then ring, then pinkie.
>
>I should also point out that the most common reason for me to hold up
>fingers is to signal how many people are in my party to be seated at a
>restaurant.

That's especially useful in a foreign country where you don't know the
language.

That reminds me that in Italy if two people go into a restaurant, one
of them usually says "siamo in due" ("we are in two"), not "siamo due"
("we are two").

Why is the "in" there? I don't know. Silvano, can you help?

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 12:28:39 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>

Which reminds me of being in Germany and placing my order with the
waitress saying "zwei bier, bitte". She immediately responded, in
English, "Coming right up".

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 1:18:57 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 9:41:02 AM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano
> >> <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
> >>
> >> >occam hat am 15.09.2022 um 16:42 geschrieben:
> >> >> (see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
> >> >> been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
> >> >
> >> >Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
> >> >many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
> >> >hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
> >> >the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
> >> >Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?
> >> In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
> >> left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
> >>
> >> There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
> >> closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
> >> thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

> I should also point out that the most common reason for me to hold up
> fingers is to signal how many people are in my party to be seated at a
> restaurant. Signaling "two" is as above, but signaling "four" skips
> the thumb in the sequence above.

Wow, when was the last time I did that?

My most common reason is telling someone in a noisy store how much of
something I want, for redundancy when saying the number.

> >We all need to be tolerant of each other's ways, especially in matters that
> >are irrelevant to morality and effectiveness, but using your thumb in the
> >middle of the count is just wrong.
> >
> >> Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
> >> Eastern, but could be Chinese.
> >>
> >> https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain
> >
> >I use the correct North American method: (loosely) closed fist, index,
> >middle, ring, little, thumb. Right hand first usually, I think. (I'm right-handed.)
> I have no idea of how dextrous you are, but when I try to raise my
> ring finger from a closed fist, the pinkie wants to rise with it.
> Hoping that signaling three is sufficient, I do the thumb instead of
> the ring finger.

Piano lessons in my yout' helped with that. On the other hand (still
the right hand), if you saw me try to draw with a mouse or a trackpad,
you'd say my dexterity is very low.

When I count on my fingers, my thumb holds down the next finger
that I'd use, the one that's on deck.

> Oddly enough, if I start the count with the pinkie, the ring finger
> remains stationary.

This is a matter of what tendon is on top of what, I believe. If I
lower my middle finger on either hand, the ring finger goes part of the
way with it.

> I do object to your use of "correct" there. I'm not going to go
> ballistic over it, but I don't think there's "correct" or "incorrect"
> method.

I was using "correct" in the sense of "the way I do it". However, I
think it's the most common way here, and I've never noticed anyone
doing it your way.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 12:48:56 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

I don't want to try to read any meaning into that, but - if I would -
the following come to mind:

1. You rarely visit restaurants where there is a host or hostess who
assigns you to a table.

2. You always make reservations in advance and give only your name.

3. You rarely dine out.

4. You usually dine alone and the host or hostess knows that you are
that sad man who never has a companion.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 2:00:21 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 12:48:56 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 1:18:57 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:

...

> >> I should also point out that the most common reason for me to hold up
> >> fingers is to signal how many people are in my party to be seated at a
> >> restaurant. Signaling "two" is as above, but signaling "four" skips
> >> the thumb in the sequence above.
> >
> >Wow, when was the last time I did that?

> I don't want to try to read any meaning into that, but - if I would -
> the following come to mind:
>
> 1. You rarely visit restaurants where there is a host or hostess who
> assigns you to a table.
>
> 2. You always make reservations in advance and give only your name.
>
> 3. You rarely dine out.
>
> 4. You usually dine alone and the host or hostess knows that you are
> that sad man who never has a companion.

1 and 3.

Also 5. I occasionally get carry-out with a friend. You know, if you sit
down to eat in a restaurant, there you are with all those people and no
mask on. I'm not that worried about Covid, maybe not as much as I
should be, but three of the people I see most often have high risk
factors.

And 6. Someone I'm with might tell the person at the desk how many
are in the party.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Ross Clark]

Or someone even less widely celebrated (this emerged from 2020
discussion here):

"Uncle Billy" Wallace used to tell friends that this is the way he
started his day. As soon as he awakened in the morning, he would call
for the morning newspaper and scan the obituary columns. "If my name
wasn't in the obituaries, "Uncle Billy" would declare...I would get up,
eat breakfast, and get to work."

Congressional Record - House - 2287 [1957]
[Extension of Remarks of Hon.Arthur V.Watkins of Utah in the Senate]


https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=6qm7GORLWvcC&pg=PA2287&lpg=PA2287&dq=look+at+obituaries+if+my+name+is+not+on+it++I+get+up&source=bl&ots=L0X1I48Q0J&sig=ACfU3U39W5UWSDdTqi6ZzE9d4yitn8y0OA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXjuDK5_3mAhVaIbcAHfAYCxAQ6AEwB3oECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=look%20at%2

[Jerry Friedman]

Thanks. I must have missed that or forgotten it when I brought up the Popik
article later in 2020.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 4:00:21 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> I don't want to try to read any meaning into that, but - if I would -
> the following come to mind:
>

> 4. You usually dine alone and the host or hostess knows that you are
> that sad man who never has a companion.

What a disgusting comment.

> --
> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

And offensiveness.

[Paul Wolff]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022, at 15:18:50, Tony Cooper posted:

>On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

>>On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 9:41:02 AM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano
>>>

Considering that all the muscles for your fingers are stationed in your
forearm, and that your fingers are manipulated from there by a bunch of
tendons, when you do anything delicate with your fingers and thumbs it's
really a very skilful marionette show, with the puppeteer somewhere in
your brain. Unfortunately, the strings do get a little bit crossed
sometimes, to save on construction costs without evolutionary
disadvantage, so your pinkie sometimes has to dance to another finger's
tune.

--
Paul

[lar3ryca]

I seldom count on my fingers, but when I do, I am not counting numbers.
I would be counting things, like names, or days of the week, or resistor
colour codes, etc.. For example, today is Thursday, the 14th, so if I
wanted to know how many days it is until many days until Sunday, I would
count , saying (or thinking), Wed, Thur, Fri, Sat, Sun. And I would
count not by raising fingers, but by placing them on a surface, starting
with the pinky, through to the thumb, then continuing on the same had,
to the thumb again (provided, of course, I needed to count higher than 5).


--
All odd numbers containanag
the letter "e".
All odd numbers contain the letter "e".

[Sam Plusnet]

On 15/09/2022 22:53, lar3ryca wrote:
>
> I seldom count on my fingers, but when I do, I am not counting numbers.
> I would be counting things, like names, or days of the week, or resistor
> colour codes, etc.. For example, today is Thursday, the 14th, so if I
> wanted to know how many days it is until many days until Sunday, I would
> count , saying (or thinking), Wed, Thur, Fri, Sat, Sun. And I would
> count not by raising fingers, but by placing them on a surface, starting
> with the pinky, through to the thumb, then continuing on the same had,
> to the thumb again (provided, of course, I needed to count higher than 5).

Or knuckles and the spaces between them - if you are trying to work out
how many days there are in March, for example.

[Quinn C]

* Jerry Friedman:

I start with the thumb of my right hand, and I think that's common in
Germany. Japanese people start with an open hand and use the other hand
to push down fingers, starting with the little finger, IIRC. So, pretty
much the exact opposite of what I do.

--
Trans people are scapegoated for the impossibilities of this two-box
system, but the system harms all of us. Most people have felt ashamed
of the ways we don't conform to whatever narrow idea of man or woman
has been prescribed onto our bodies -- H.P.Keenan in Slate

[Quinn C]

* Jerry Friedman:

There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
with my right, less so with the left.

--
Motives? Who cares for motives? Humans, perhaps.
-- Klingon Ambassador Kell

[Tony Cooper]

So it's my forearm's fault that I can't manage chopsticks?

The wooden ones, not the piano one.

After finishing the "Extraordinary Attorney Woo" series on Netflix, I
had to try kimbaps. The Korean main character in the show ate kimbaps
(also spelled gimbaps) every day.

I stopped at a Korean restaurant and ordered one to go. (It's a single
long roll wrapped in dried seaweed and cut into several sushi-like
slices.) It came with two pair of wooden chopsticks.

Trying for authenticity, the chopsticks were employed. Mostly, they
served to spin, rather than lift, the slices.

Still, we managed. The kimbap was quite tasty.

https://www.seriouseats.com/gimbap-korean-seaweed-rice-rolls

[lar3ryca]

Because I don't count knuckles as fingers, I didn't mention that
technique. I use it often.

And even though I don't wear an analogue wristwatch, I use my phone to
find the time, and then use an imagined clock dial and the sun to figure
out which way north is.

--
Q: What do you call a half-dozen Indians with Covid 19?
A: Six sick Sikhs (sic).

[David Kleinecke]

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 9:26:06 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 11:29:16 AM UTC-4, Silvano wrote:
> > occam hat am 15.09.2022 um 16:42 geschrieben:
>
> > > (see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
> > > been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)
> >
> > Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?

> Now it can be told: "occam" is the pseudonym of Django Reinhart.
> Or, perhaps, the celebrated Chicago baseball pitcher Mordecai
> "Three-finger" Brown.

> > Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
> > many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
> > hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
> > the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
> > Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

> I point with my right index finger to the left fingers. Seems natural
> for a right-handed person.
>
I hold my right hand palm up, make a fist and flip fingers out as I
count. Over five I akso use my left hand.

[Peter Moylan]

On 16/09/22 02:26, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 11:29:16 AM UTC-4, Silvano wrote:

>> Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting,
>> how many people start with their left hand and how many with their
>> right hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed
>> people and the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet
>> and those using Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?
>
> I point with my right index finger to the left fingers. Seems
> natural for a right-handed person.

Pointing is the only good method once you get past ten. Unless you have
very flexible toes, I suppose.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Richard Heathfield]

Ten is rather unambitious, is it not? I can manage up to (just
over) a thousand without resorting to toes.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 15.09.2022 kl. 21.48 skrev Jerry Friedman:

> This is a matter of what tendon is on top of what, I believe. If I
> lower my middle finger on either hand, the ring finger goes part of the
> way with it.

If I lower any finger 'at the bottom', the neighbouring fingers will
follow, and that is caused by the pull in the tissue, something that
connot be practised away. But If I lower them in the first joint, the
neighbouring fingers remain unmoved except for the pinkie on my left
hand where the ring finger will follow. That is something that I
practised some years ago.

--
Bertel

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 16.09.2022 kl. 03.28 skrev Quinn C:

> There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
> the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
> joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
> with my right, less so with the left.

What is a Vulcan greeting?

--
Bertel

[Richard Heathfield]

See photograph at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_salute>

[Silvano]

Ken Blake hat am 15.09.2022 um 21:28 geschrieben:

> That reminds me that in Italy if two people go into a restaurant, one
> of them usually says "siamo in due" ("we are in two"), not "siamo due"
> ("we are two").
>
> Why is the "in" there? I don't know. Silvano, can you help?

Different languages follow different logics and use different idioms.

[Silvano]

Tony Cooper hat am 15.09.2022 um 17:40 geschrieben:

> On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

> <Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>
>> Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
>> many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
>> hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
>> the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
>> Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?
>

> In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
> left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
>
> There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
> closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
> thumb, then ring, then pinkie.
>

> Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
> Eastern, but could be Chinese.
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

Thank you for the interesting link. It's also fun to see so many
different ways to count with your fingers.
According to that Guardian article I am European, as I already knew. I
am left-handed, by the way, and I thought it natural for people to start
counting with their prevailing hand. Apparently I was wrong.

[Silvano]

Bertel Lund Hansen hat am 16.09.2022 um 08:54 geschrieben:

Did Star Trek never make it to Denmark?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_salute>

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 16.09.2022 kl. 11.30 skrev Silvano:

> Did Star Trek never make it to Denmark?

Oh yes, but it didn't make it to me.

--
Bertel

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

Octal is easy, just use the gaps.
Binary counting gets you to (gets calculator) 2^10. about a thousand.
(You have to get your socks off for higher figures)

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[occam]

On 15/09/2022 21:18, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
>>> left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
>>>
>>> There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
>>> closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
>>> thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

> I should also point out that the most common reason for me to hold up
> fingers is to signal how many people are in my party to be seated at a
> restaurant. Signaling "two" is as above, but signaling "four" skips
> the thumb in the sequence above.

There is a scene in the Quentin Tarantino film "Inglorious Basterds"
(2009) when one of the characters gives away his non-German origins by
showing index-middle & ring finger to indicate 'three'. The Nazi
intelligence officer picks up on this subtlety by pointing out that a
true German would have used index-middle-and-thumb to do this.

Question: Is there any German blood in your ancestry, or did the
scriptwriters of the film get it totally wrong?

[Peter Moylan]

On 16/09/22 19:47, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

> Binary counting gets you to (gets calculator) 2^10. about a
> thousand. (You have to get your socks off for higher figures)

Useful mnenomic: 2^10 = 10^3, approximately.

Once you've memorised this, you can quickly deduce the results for
nearby powers like 2^9 and 2^12. I assume, of course, that anyone who
regularly uses binary knows what the round numbers are.

Perhaps my mnenomic should have been: 2^10 is the nearest round number
to 10^3.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 07:42:05 +0100
Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

> On 16/09/2022 6:20 am, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 16/09/22 02:26, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 11:29:16 AM UTC-4, Silvano
> >> wrote:
> >
> >>> Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for
> >>> counting,
> >>> how many people start with their left hand and how many with
> >>> their
> >>> right hand? Is any significant difference known between
> >>> left-handed
> >>> people and the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet
> >>> and those using Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?
> >>
> >> I point with my right index finger to the left fingers. Seems
> >> natural for a right-handed person.
> >
> > Pointing is the only good method once you get past ten. Unless
> > you have
> > very flexible toes, I suppose.
>
> Ten is rather unambitious, is it not? I can manage up to (just
> over) a thousand without resorting to toes.
>

Doh! I've bin pre-plagiarised again!

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 20:43:19 +1000
Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 16/09/22 19:47, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>
> > Binary counting gets you to (gets calculator) 2^10. about a
> > thousand. (You have to get your socks off for higher figures)
>
> Useful mnenomic: 2^10 = 10^3, approximately.
>

Worth a whoosh, then.

> Once you've memorised this, you can quickly deduce the results for
> nearby powers like 2^9 and 2^12. I assume, of course, that anyone who
> regularly uses binary knows what the round numbers are.
>
> Perhaps my mnenomic should have been: 2^10 is the nearest round number
> to 10^3.

Mebi I know how big a Megabyte is (what? this *hasn't* been done to death
here?).

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-09-15, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> I was using "correct" in the sense of "the way I do it". However, I
> think it's the most common way here, and I've never noticed anyone
> doing it your way.

That's the correct way to use "correct" in AUE, isn't it?

Anyway, for keeping track of a count, I use a system that I saw on TV
decades ago that goes up to 99 with two hands. RH = units, each finger
is 1, thumb is 5; LH = tens, each finger is 10, thumb is 50. But I
don't fold the fingers/thumbs over, just bend them down/sideways a
bit.

I couldn't remember exactly what the system was called, but I got
close enough to find it on the WWW: "chisanbop", of Korean origin (I
thought it was either Japanese or that):

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chisanbop>

The illustration there probably explains it better than what I wrote
above.

I've never seen the book or tried to do operations other than
incrementing or decrementing with it, though.


--
It is probable that television drama of high caliber and produced by
first-rate artists will materially raise the level of dramatic taste
of the nation. ---David Sarnoff, CEO of RCA, 1939; in Stoll 1995

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 16.09.2022 kl. 12.06 skrev occam:

> There is a scene in the Quentin Tarantino film "Inglorious Basterds"

Yes, I thought about it too, and I have been wondering whether it is
true that there is this difference.

> (2009) when one of the characters gives away his non-German origins by
> showing index-middle & ring finger to indicate 'three'. The Nazi
> intelligence officer picks up on this subtlety by pointing out that a
> true German would have used index-middle-and-thumb to do this.

> Question: Is there any German blood in your ancestry, or did the
> scriptwriters of the film get it totally wrong?

I (Danish) use my thumb when I indicate a number. What do others do?

--
Bertel

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 16.09.2022 kl. 12.43 skrev Peter Moylan:

> Perhaps my mnenomic should have been: 2^10 is the nearest round number
> to 10^3.

... for certain values of round.

--
Bertel

[Peter Moylan]

I don't use my thumb until I've run out of fingers.

[Tony Cooper]

One of my former roommates with born with some condition that caused
both of his thumbs to be permanently curled down. At an early age the
second joint of both thumbs was surgically removed.

One time, when he was signaling that he'd be ready to go by extending
all fingers and thumbs, I said "OK, you'll be ready in 9 minutes?"

When he questioned my figure I replied that 4 1/2 and 4 1/2 equal
nine.

[Silvano]

Tony Cooper hat am 15.09.2022 um 17:40 geschrieben:

> There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
> closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
> thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

By the way, in which parts of the English-speaking world is "pinkie"
used? It's a new word to me, and that's one of the reasons why I read AUE.
Where do people say "little finger"?
Where do they say something else and what do they say?

[Peter T. Daniels]

I was thinking of a different sort of counting from the other
responders.

The "Colbert Questionert" [sic; should be Questionnert, no?] is a
set of 15 questions by which, Stephen Colbert claims, he can get
to "really know" a celebrity in a way that can't be done in the usual
brief interview. (They use prerecorded ones to fill out shows.)

I noticed that they seem not to always include 15 questions, so
I've started counting them; and Tuesday night, when he didn't
do a new show because he was on the way back from the Emmy
Awards,

I found that I laid my open left hand flat and folded each
finger under as questions appeared, starting with the thumb, and
opening them in turn starting with 6.

(De Niro only got 12 questions; Ethan Hawke was the first one in a
long time to get the whole set of 15. I suspect that means that some
of the answers get cut from most of the sets for being uninteresting.
Also, de Niro was reading his answers -- presumably written by the
show's writers -- because they realize that even though he's very
popular, he's a lousy interview. Once he was on with Pacino to promote
something or other and barely said a word. On his own, he's the most
monosyllabic guest who's ever been asked back.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 10:01:05 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> One of my former roommates with born with some condition that caused
> both of his thumbs to be permanently curled down. At an early age the
> second joint of both thumbs was surgically removed.
>
> One time, when he was signaling that he'd be ready to go by extending
> all fingers and thumbs, I said "OK, you'll be ready in 9 minutes?"
>
> When he questioned my figure I replied that 4 1/2 and 4 1/2 equal
> nine.

Wow. You were a cruel SOB even back then,

> --
> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

And sadism.

[Tony Cooper]

I would usually use "little finger" when the subject is just that
finger: "I broke my little finger on my right hand when I fell last
week."

"Pinkie" works when the subject includes all of the fingers and the
thumb.

I don't think that it's a regional thing at all. Some people would
never use "pinkie", some people always use "pinkie", and some - like
me - use either "pinkie" or "little finger".

The above pertains to casual discussion (as this is) and not formal
writing.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Usu. spelled <pinky>. "Little finger" is more formal. There are
such names for each finger, that are not uniform everywhere,
and I've encountered rhymes or mnemonics for little kids.

Pointer, ?, ring finger, pinky are widespread.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 5:46:25 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:

> Considering that all the muscles for your fingers are stationed in your
> forearm, and that your fingers are manipulated from there by a bunch of
> tendons, when you do anything delicate with your fingers and thumbs it's
> really a very skilful marionette show, with the puppeteer somewhere in
> your brain. Unfortunately, the strings do get a little bit crossed
> sometimes, to save on construction costs without evolutionary
> disadvantage, so your pinkie sometimes has to dance to another finger's
> tune.

However, because the transmission of neural messages to
the extremities is so slow, instrumentalists, typists, _and
handwriters_ have some sort of way of bypassing the brain
in order to play rapid passages, type fast, and write fluently.

How this is accomplished is not well understood.

[Tony Cooper]

I am not as obsessed with Colbert as you, but I did notice that De
Niro was not asked what one song he would listen to for the rest of
his life. I don't know what other two were omitted.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 7:28:42 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman:
> > On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 1:18:57 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
...

> >> Oddly enough, if I start the count with the pinkie, the ring finger
> >> remains stationary.

> >
> > This is a matter of what tendon is on top of what, I believe. If I
> > lower my middle finger on either hand, the ring finger goes part of the
> > way with it.

> There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
> the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
> joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
> with my right, less so with the left.

Good thing you never wanted to be a rabbi (I feel sure).

--
Jerry Friedman

[Richard Heathfield]

There's a lot of round in 10000000000.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 16.09.2022 kl. 18.33 skrev Richard Heathfield:
>>> Perhaps my mnenomic should have been: 2^10 is the nearest round number
>>> to 10^3.

>> ... for certain values of round.

> There's a lot of round in 10000000000.

Yes, but what has that got to do with it?

--
Bertel

[Sam Plusnet]

My BrE does not include "pinky", nor have I heard it from other BrE
speakers. Little finger is the only term I would use or expect to here.
Might younger people pick up the US term from film & TV? Possibly.

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 10:27:20 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 16:16:52 +0200, Silvano
><Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>
>>Tony Cooper hat am 15.09.2022 um 17:40 geschrieben:
>>> There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
>>> closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
>>> thumb, then ring, then pinkie.
>>
>>
>>By the way, in which parts of the English-speaking world is "pinkie"
>>used? It's a new word to me, and that's one of the reasons why I read AUE.
>>Where do people say "little finger"?
>>Where do they say something else and what do they say?
>
>I would usually use "little finger" when the subject is just that
>finger: "I broke my little finger on my right hand when I fell last
>week."
>
>"Pinkie" works when the subject includes all of the fingers and the
>thumb.
>
>I don't think that it's a regional thing at all. Some people would
>never use "pinkie", some people always use "pinkie", and some - like
>me - use either "pinkie" or "little finger".

And some - like me - use either "pinky" or "little finger."

It apparently can be spelled either way.

I don't know about the rest of the English-speaking world, but it's
common in the US.

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 09:41:11 +0200, Silvano
<Sil...@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:

>Ken Blake hat am 15.09.2022 um 21:28 geschrieben:
>> That reminds me that in Italy if two people go into a restaurant, one
>> of them usually says "siamo in due" ("we are in two"), not "siamo due"
>> ("we are two").
>>
>> Why is the "in" there? I don't know. Silvano, can you help?
>
>
>Different languages follow different logics and use different idioms.


Yes, of course, but sometimes there's a reason behind those idioms. I
was hoping there was one and you could explain it.

[Ken Blake]

I knew that "Vulcan" meant it was related to Start Trek, but I didn't
know what a Vulcan greeting was. I'm in the minority, but I never
liked Star Trek and only watched it a couple of times.

[Ken Blake]

Do rabbis do that? Only with their left hand?

[Tony Cooper]

If it has not yet arrived in the UK, the term "pinky swear" or "pinky
promise" is on its way.

I think, however, that the term has made it to the UK but not to Sam
Plusnet.

https://www.benjaminmoorepaint.co.uk/colour-gallery/colour/pinky-swear/CSP-340/

About the spelling...I didn't give it any thought when I typed my
comment, but it seems that "pinky" is the common spelling. It's not a
word I've had ocassion to write before.

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 23:25:38 +1000, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

I sometimes do that with my left hand (on the guitar).

[Jerry Friedman]

With both hands, when blessing the congregation, and probably other
times.

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/prayer-blessings-the-difference/

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 12:57:01 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 19:42:53 +0100, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >On 16/09/2022 15:16, Silvano wrote:
> >> Tony Cooper hat am 15.09.2022 um 17:40 geschrieben:
> >>> There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
> >>> closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
> >>> thumb, then ring, then pinkie.
> >>
> >>
> >> By the way, in which parts of the English-speaking world is "pinkie"
> >> used? It's a new word to me, and that's one of the reasons why I read AUE.
> >> Where do people say "little finger"?
> >> Where do they say something else and what do they say?
> >
> >My BrE does not include "pinky", nor have I heard it from other BrE
> >speakers. Little finger is the only term I would use or expect to here.
> >Might younger people pick up the US term from film & TV? Possibly.
> If it has not yet arrived in the UK, the term "pinky swear" or "pinky
> promise" is on its way.

...

Let's not forget the more or less standard "pinky ring".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 11:53:28 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

I have never seen "Star Trek" or "Star Wars", but learned what the
Vulcan greeting was from watching "The Big Bang Theory". Klingon (the
language) is often mentioned on TBBT, and I assume that's from the
same show.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 3:14:28 PM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 12:54:43 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
> > On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 08:46:38 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> > <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Vulcan greeting]

> > >Good thing you never wanted to be a rabbi (I feel sure).
> > Do rabbis do that? Only with their left hand?
>
> With both hands, when blessing the congregation, and probably other
> times.
>
> https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/prayer-blessings-the-difference/

Wasn't its use suggested by famously Jewish Leonard Nimoy?

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

Not to mention the extended rock-paper-scissors game

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Ken Blake]

I also watched "The Big Bang Theory" only a couple of times. I liked
it even less than Star Trek.

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 12:14:25 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 12:54:43 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 08:46:38 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 7:28:42 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>> >> * Jerry Friedman:
>> >> > On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 1:18:57 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> >...
>> >
>> >> >> Oddly enough, if I start the count with the pinkie, the ring finger
>> >> >> remains stationary.
>> >> >
>> >> > This is a matter of what tendon is on top of what, I believe. If I
>> >> > lower my middle finger on either hand, the ring finger goes part of the
>> >> > way with it.
>> >
>> >> There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
>> >> the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
>> >> joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
>> >> with my right, less so with the left.
>> >
>> >Good thing you never wanted to be a rabbi (I feel sure).
>
>> Do rabbis do that? Only with their left hand?
>
>With both hands, when blessing the congregation, and probably other
>times.

Thanks. I never knew that, or if I did, I had forgotten. I haven't
seen rabbis often. I think I've been to three weddings, two funerals,
and three bar mitzvahs (all a long time ago) presided over by rabbis.
I never wanted go to any of them, but since they were relatives, I had
no choice.

Just in case it wasn't clear, my own wedding was not presided over by
a rabbi, even though both me and my wife are of Jewish ancestry.

[Richard Heathfield]

2^0 = 1
2^1 = 10
2^2 = 100
2^3 = 1000
2^4 = 10000
2^5 = 100000
2^6 = 1000000
2^7 = 10000000
2^8 = 100000000
2^9 = 1000000000
2^10 = 10000000000

It helps if you've spent a lot of times around computers.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

If someone thinks one finger is 'Pinky' I would enquire which of the
others is 'Perky'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsr_k1wKSWI
(Sing along now, children)

[It was never explained how they got the helium]

I wonder if any Dear Readers still has/ever had a Crackerjack pencil?

[Sam Plusnet]

On 16/09/2022 20:48, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> Wasn't its use suggested by famously Jewish Leonard Nimoy?

That phrase sounds to me as though it comes straight from the pages of a
gossip magazine.

Query: Is it a phrase people would expect to hear in casual conversation?

[Jerry Friedman]

Did they come in the bottom of a Crackerjack box?

(Anyone getting Stuck Meat Loaf Syndrome might try "Take Me Out to
the Ball Game".)

--
Jerry Friedman

[Ken Blake]

Not me. And by the way, I didn't knew he was Jewish (nor do I care).

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

No Meatloaf, no more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meat_Loaf

Are you thinking of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a136H5K3OKw

[Jerry Friedman]

"Meat loaf /again/?"

OK, that was obscure. I think Adam Funk might get it.

> Are you thinking of
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a136H5K3OKw

Well, that's connected to both songs. I was thinking of "Two Out of Three
Ain't Bad" (and I'm not mean enough to provide a Youtube link).

"You'll never find your gold on a sandy beach
You'll never drill for oil on a city street
I know you're looking for a ruby in a mountain of rocks
But there ain't no Coup de Ville
Hiding at the bottom of a Cracker Jack box."

"Cracker Jack" is right--I misspelled it.

I'm shocked to learn that the only worthless thing in a Cracker Jack box
is the Cracker Jacks--there's no toy any more. Instead, according to
Wikipedia, there's a QR code on the box that lets you download a
baseball-themed game.

(I also have the vague feeling that I've been shocked to learn that before.)

Another shock, which I experienced a little while back: /Bat Out of Hell/
is one of the best-selling albums of all time.
--
Jerry Friedman

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 21:52:14 +0100, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:

It's the kind of statement that if I would use it here PTD would go
ballistic and claim I'm anti-semitic and a bigot.

I do wonder how any actor or comedian is "famously Jewish" today. Many
are Jewish, many are famous, but the combination?

Is PTD channeling "Steiner's Resort" from "The Marvelous Mrs Maisel"?

[Quinn C]

* Jerry Friedman:

So they're really Vulcan infiltrators. At least that explains the space
laser.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Jerry Friedman]

Highly logical.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Den 16.09.2022 kl. 22.18 skrev Richard Heathfield:

> It helps if you've spent a lot of times around computers.

I still think that Peter Moylan got the numbers switched.

And using two different bases in the same sentence without explicitly
saying so is not the best style.

--
Bertel

[Peter Moylan]

On 17/09/22 05:20, Tony Cooper wrote:

> I have never seen "Star Trek" or "Star Wars", but learned what the
> Vulcan greeting was from watching "The Big Bang Theory". Klingon (the
> language) is often mentioned on TBBT, and I assume that's from the
> same show.

Yes, the Starship Enterprise chases the Klingons around Uranus.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Peter Moylan]

On 17/09/22 00:16, Silvano wrote:
> Tony Cooper hat am 15.09.2022 um 17:40 geschrieben:

>> There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
>> closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
>> thumb, then ring, then pinkie.
>
> By the way, in which parts of the English-speaking world is "pinkie"
> used? It's a new word to me, and that's one of the reasons why I
> read AUE. Where do people say "little finger"? Where do they say
> something else and what do they say?

I understand the word, but I think of it as primarily American. I say
"little finger" - and so do Americans when they're being formal.

Now, to a guitarist the fingers of the right hand are called (starting
with the thumb) p i m a , and the little finger has no name at all. The
reason for those labels is obvious to anyone who knows Latin.

When it comes to toes, children learn to recite (starting with the big toe)
This little piggy went to market
This little piggy stayed home
This little piggy had roast beef
This little piggy had none
And this little piggy had ten beers
And went wee, wee, wee all the way home.

So, if you have a problem with your middle toe, a podiatrist will
understand if you say it's the one that had roast beef.