a ton to a tanner

[Masa]

Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.

It was a ton to a tanner the boss wouldn't like it.
(D.Francis)


question: about the meaning of "a ton to a tanner".

From context, it probably says that "It was obvious that the boss wouldn't like it".
If so, how does the phrase mean it?

[Cheryl]

I think you have the meaning right. In British English, a 'ton' is slang
for 100 pounds and a 'tanner' is slang for a sixpence, which is not used
any more, and which was a lot less that 100 pounds. You need someone
from the UK to tell you how common such terms are nowadays. They're
nearly unknown in North America, to the best of my knowledge, especially
'ton'.

I think the 'to' puts the comparison in the form of a bet, and I always
find betting confusing. I think he's saying he'd risk a very large sum
of money on his opinion that the boss wouldn't like it - in other words,
as you said, it was obvious that the boss wouldn't like it.

--
Cheryl

[the Omrud]

The normal phrase is "A pound to a penny". It means that it's worth
betting because the outcome is so obvious. The speaker would bet a
pound just to win a penny. "tanner" is a slang name for the pre-decimal
sixpence coin. Comparing it with a measure of weight is meaningless,
but it sounds good and everybody would have known what is meant.

--
David

[the Omrud]

On 01/12/2011 16:39, Cheryl wrote:
> On 2011-12-01 12:35 PM, Masa wrote:
>> Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
>>
>> It was a ton to a tanner the boss wouldn't like it.
>> (D.Francis)
>>
>> question: about the meaning of "a ton to a tanner".
>>
>> From context, it probably says that "It was obvious that the boss
>> wouldn't like it".
>> If so, how does the phrase mean it?
>
> I think you have the meaning right. In British English, a 'ton' is slang
> for 100 pounds and a 'tanner' is slang for a sixpence, which is not used
> any more, and which was a lot less that 100 pounds. You need someone
> from the UK to tell you how common such terms are nowadays. They're
> nearly unknown in North America, to the best of my knowledge, especially
> 'ton'.

Eeek, I didn't think of "ton" being Ł100. That is surely the better
reading.

Either way, it's not an established idiom but it is a variation of one.

--
David

[Peter Brooks]

On Dec 1, 6:40 pm, the Omrud <usenet.om...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> pound just to win a penny.  "tanner" is a slang name for the pre-decimal
> sixpence coin.
>

What do they call the post-decimal sixpences then?

[Marius Hancu]

I think he's betting "a ton to a tanner" that the boss wouldn't like
it.
--
tanner:
Britain : SIXPENCE
---
This is how the betting ratios are indicated.

Marius Hancu

[the Omrud]

We had them for a while. They were called sixpence or tanner, but they
were worth 2½p.

<sings>
Bring back the ten-bob note,
Bring back the ten-bob note,
Bring back the ten-bob note!

--
David

[Leslie Danks]

A "ton" is common slang for 100 miles per hour, and also for "lots" of
anything. In this case it might well mean 100 pounds (money), though I don't
recall it being used like that. A "tanner" is slang for the sixpenny bit (or
sixpence) in pre-decimal British currency. "A ton to a tanner" are the (very
long) odds that the boss wouldn't like it, IOW it is extremely likely that
the boss wouldn't like it. If you bet a ton that the boss wouldn't like it
and he _didn't_ like it (i.e. you were right), you would win sixpence; if he
_did_ like it (i.e. you were wrong), you would lose your ton (hundred
pounds, or whatever). Thus it is very, very likely that the boss wouldn't
like it.

--
Les
(BrE)

[franzi]

Masa <aut...@infoseek.jp> wrote

It is a statement of odds, at betting. In more direct language, it might
have been "It was ten to one the boss wouldn't like it." Another way to
say the same idea is "It was odds-on the boss wouldn't like it." In
other words, it was very probable.

But here the odds are given in slang terms for amounts of money. A ton
is one hundred (pounds, in this case, but "ton" is also used for one
hundred in other contexts, especially a speed of 100 miles an hour). A
tanner is sixpence, which was then one fortieth part of a pound.

The actual odds aren't really important. It's just a very large amount
to a very small amount. But as you can see, they work out at four
thousand to one. So it was almost a dead cert. It's odds against that
that was the book in question, though it's tempting to think it should
be.
--
franzi

[Percival P. Cassidy]

"London to a brick on" -- which I did not hear until I got to Australia.

Perce
(dual-citizen OzBrit -- aka "Ten-pound Pom" or "Whingeing Pommie
bastard" -- in exile in US Midwest)

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On 12/01/2011 11:39 AM, Cheryl wrote:
> I think you have the meaning right. In British English, a 'ton' is slang
> for 100 pounds and a 'tanner' is slang for a sixpence, which is not used
> any more, and which was a lot less that 100 pounds. You need someone
> from the UK to tell you how common such terms are nowadays. They're
> nearly unknown in North America, to the best of my knowledge, especially
> 'ton'.

In the US, of course, the expression is "dollars to doughnuts"--which
must confuse a lot of kids now that doughnuts often cost a dollar.

¬R

[Marius Hancu]

On Dec 1, 11:05 am, Masa <aut...@infoseek.jp> wrote:

BTW, it's only this author that's using it at GB.

Marius Hancu

[Django Cat]

the Omrud wrote:

> > I think you have the meaning right. In British English, a 'ton' is
> > slang for 100 pounds and a 'tanner' is slang for a sixpence, which
> > is not used any more, and which was a lot less that 100 pounds. You
> > need someone from the UK to tell you how common such terms are
> > nowadays. They're nearly unknown in North America, to the best of
> > my knowledge, especially 'ton'.
>

> Eeek, I didn't think of "ton" being £100.

Do you remember 'ton-up lads'?

DC

--

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Thu, 01 Dec 2011 17:49:09 +0100, Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at>
wrote:

>Masa wrote:
>
>> Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
>>
>> It was a ton to a tanner the boss wouldn't like it.
>> (D.Francis)
>>
>>
>> question: about the meaning of "a ton to a tanner".
>>
>> From context, it probably says that "It was obvious that the boss wouldn't
>> like it". If so, how does the phrase mean it?
>
>A "ton" is common slang for 100 miles per hour, and also for "lots" of
>anything. In this case it might well mean 100 pounds (money), though I don't
>recall it being used like that.

Nor I. But the OED does:

b. slang. A hundred pounds.

1946 People 7 Apr. 2/6 A red-faced punter..whose conversational
powers were limited to..jargon, which translated fivers as
'flims'..; £100 as a 'ton' [etc.].
1960 'A. Burgess' Doctor is Sick 164 'And what's the first
prize?' asked Edwin. 'A ton,' screamed Harry Stone.' 'Undred
nicker an' a film test.'
1981 P. Turnbull Deep & Crisp & Even vii. 131 The old man would
charge three ton for this but me and the boys will do it for
half-price.

>A "tanner" is slang for the sixpenny bit (or
>sixpence) in pre-decimal British currency. "A ton to a tanner" are the (very
>long) odds that the boss wouldn't like it, IOW it is extremely likely that
>the boss wouldn't like it. If you bet a ton that the boss wouldn't like it
>and he _didn't_ like it (i.e. you were right), you would win sixpence; if he
>_did_ like it (i.e. you were wrong), you would lose your ton (hundred
>pounds, or whatever). Thus it is very, very likely that the boss wouldn't
>like it.
>

--

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Mark Brader]

"Franzi":

> But here the odds are given in slang terms for amounts of money. A ton
> is one hundred (pounds, in this case, but "ton" is also used for one
> hundred in other contexts, especially a speed of 100 miles an hour).

Is it known how that happened? In its proper meaning in relation to
weight, a long ton is either 2,000 or 2,240 pounds, but I've never
heard of a unit equal to 20 or 22.4 pounds. So why "ton" for 100 of
something?

(A metric ton or tonne of 1,000 kg is equal to 100 of the obsolete
unit called a myriagram, but for several reasons it seems ludicrous
to imagine that the "ton" in question could have originated from this.)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Unfortunately, real life is usually
m...@vex.net | not a movie." --Al Kriman

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[the Omrud]

Er, yes, but that was to do with speed on a motorcycle. Or did they
balance 20 fivers on their heads?

I have a feeling that "ton" for £100 is a London expression, like pony,
monkey and dachshund or whatever. Or if not London, they were not
employed by my middle-class forebears.

--
David

[the Omrud]

On 01/12/2011 18:50, Mark Brader wrote:
> "Franzi":
>> But here the odds are given in slang terms for amounts of money. A ton
>> is one hundred (pounds, in this case, but "ton" is also used for one
>> hundred in other contexts, especially a speed of 100 miles an hour).
>
> Is it known how that happened? In its proper meaning in relation to
> weight, a long ton is either 2,000 or 2,240 pounds, but I've never
> heard of a unit equal to 20 or 22.4 pounds. So why "ton" for 100 of
> something?
>
> (A metric ton or tonne of 1,000 kg is equal to 100 of the obsolete
> unit called a myriagram, but for several reasons it seems ludicrous
> to imagine that the "ton" in question could have originated from this.)

Well, let's see. A ton is 20 hundredweight, so it must therefore be
one-hundred twentyweights.

--
David

[the Omrud]

Well, well, this seems to be a common explanation:

The register ton is a unit of volume used for the cargo capacity of a
ship, defined as 100 cubic feet. Sounds like docker's slang.

--
David

[Leslie Danks]

That's a lot of fags.

--
Les
(BrE)

[Leslie Danks]

As a (middle-class) child, teenager and young adult, I lived in or near
London from ca. 1947 to 1966. I only ever heard "ton" used to mean 100 mph,
(nearly) always in connection with motorcycles. Maybe this was partly due to
the fact that although I owned a variety of motorcycles, I was rarely in
possession of one hundred pounds.

--
Les
(BrE)

[Jerry Friedman]

On Dec 1, 9:47 am, franzi <et.in.arcadia.fra...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Masa <aut...@infoseek.jp> wrote
>
> >Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
>
> >It was a ton to a tanner the boss wouldn't like it.
> >(D.Francis)
>
> >question: about the meaning of "a ton to a tanner".

...

> The actual odds aren't really important. It's just a very large amount
> to a very small amount. But as you can see, they work out at four
> thousand to one. So it was almost a dead cert. It's odds against that
> that was the book in question, though it's tempting to think it should
> be.

Yes, it would be quite a longshot, and a banker wouldn't risk any
money on it.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Don Phillipson]

"the Omrud" <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:CqQBq.183917$cr3....@newsfe03.ams2...

>>> Eeek, I didn't think of "ton" being £100.
>>
>> Do you remember 'ton-up lads'?
>
> Er, yes, but that was to do with speed on a motorcycle. Or did they
> balance 20 fivers on their heads?

More generally, a ton is 100 of anything in particular. A ton-up lad
is one who has done the ton on his own wheels viz. 100 m.p.h. in
a car or on a motorbike: and the bet of a ton to a tanner is 4,000
to one (£100 to 6d., one fortieth of a pound sterling (240 pence).)

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Leslie Danks]

A factoid I cannot keep to myself is that one of the qualifications for
joining the TON UP CLUB is:

"You have to know a few sheep jokes."

<http://www.tonup.com/>

--
Les
(BrE)

[Mark Brader]

Mark Brader:

>>> Is it known how that happened? In its proper meaning in relation to
>>> weight, a long ton is either 2,000 or 2,240 pounds, but I've never
>>> heard of a unit equal to 20 or 22.4 pounds. So why "ton" for 100 of
>>> something?

(Ignore "long" there. Eddo.)

"David":

>> Well, let's see. A ton is 20 hundredweight, so it must therefore be
>> one-hundred twentyweights.

This reminds me of the way British money used to work. The monetary
pound was equal to a pound of silver, tower weight, and was made up
of 240 pennies, which were equal to a pennyweight of silver. But the
intermediate units were 1 shilling = 12 pence = 1/20 pound, and
1 ounce = 20 pennyweights = 1/12 pound.

The explanation in this case, I believe, is that shillings didn't come
into use until later, after tower weight was obsolete. (The units of
tower weight were 15/16 the size of the corresponding troy units.)

> Well, well, this seems to be a common explanation:
>
> The register ton is a unit of volume used for the cargo capacity of a
> ship, defined as 100 cubic feet. Sounds like docker's slang.

Well, that seems at least somewhat plausible. Thanks.
--
Mark Brader "Thus the metric system did not really catch on
Toronto in the States, unless you count the increasing
m...@vex.net popularity of the 9 mm bullet." -- Dave Barry

[franzi]

Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote

A knockdown argument. But do you have proof? (I do, as it happens, in a
box somewhere.)

--
franzi

[Django Cat]

For sure. I also suspect nobody outside of Dick Francis' imagination
has ever said 'a ton to a tanner'.

DC

--

[Mike Lyle]

On Thu, 01 Dec 2011 18:39:05 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 01 Dec 2011 17:49:09 +0100, Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at>
>wrote:
>
>>Masa wrote:
>>
>>> Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
>>>
>>> It was a ton to a tanner the boss wouldn't like it.
>>> (D.Francis)
>>>
>>>
>>> question: about the meaning of "a ton to a tanner".
>>>
>>> From context, it probably says that "It was obvious that the boss wouldn't
>>> like it". If so, how does the phrase mean it?
>>
>>A "ton" is common slang for 100 miles per hour, and also for "lots" of
>>anything. In this case it might well mean 100 pounds (money), though I don't
>>recall it being used like that.
>
>Nor I. But the OED does:
>
> b. slang. A hundred pounds.
>
> 1946 People 7 Apr. 2/6 A red-faced punter..whose conversational
> powers were limited to..jargon, which translated fivers as
> 'flims'..; £100 as a 'ton' [etc.].

It's also been around for years as a variant of the cricketer's
"century" -- a score of one hundred runs. I feel that followed the 100
mph usage, though.

That 1946 example prompts a WAG: there are twenty fivers in a hundred
pounds, and were a hundred shillings in five pounds. Could somebody at
some stage have perceived an analogy with the twenty hundredweight
which make a ton weight? (I know an Imperial cwt is 112 lb, but it has
in some cases been 100 lb; and in any case slang likes poetic
licence.)

On the "A pound to a penny" tack, there's also "All Lombard Street to
a China orange", which I'd call obsolete but that I know somebody who
likes using it.
[...]

--
Mike.

[bill van]

In article <3zRBq.31$R94...@newsfe21.ams2>,

Google finds four hits on the Web. Two are excerpts from Francis, and
two are related to this aue thread.

bill

[Iain Archer]

bill van wrote on Thu, 1 Dec 2011

And I found none, in either order, in Google Books nplex in the last
century. I think I might nevertheless bet, though I'm not at all sure
at what odds, that there are a few other existing instances to be found.
Shall we carry this forward five years?
--
Iain Archer To email, please use Reply-To address

[Katy Jennison]

On 01/12/2011 19:44, Don Phillipson wrote:

> More generally, a ton is 100 of anything in particular. A ton-up lad
> is one who has done the ton on his own wheels viz. 100 m.p.h. in
> a car or on a motorbike:

Or, as it might be, her (in which case, a lass): I remember doing the
ton on the A127 Southend Road in our 1963 Volvo 121 estate.

--
Katy Jennison

[Tom P]

"doing the ton" on the motorway was a common enough expression, also for
car drivers. But I never heard it used as meaning £100.

[bill van]

In article <MzDDJMGv...@virgin.net>, Iain Archer <m...@privacy.net>
wrote:

You might not have to wait that long. This thread has spawned another
Web hit, and for some reason Google also finds a third excerpt today.
Six hits total now; 50 per cent growth in less than 24 hours.

bill

[Iain Archer]

bill van wrote on Fri, 2 Dec 2011

Does that make it trending?

[bill van]

In article <91Yv4enC...@virgin.net>, Iain Archer <m...@privacy.net>

wrote:

> bill van wrote on Fri, 2 Dec 2011
> >In article <MzDDJMGv...@virgin.net>, Iain Archer <m...@privacy.net>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> bill van wrote on Thu, 1 Dec 2011
> >> >In article <3zRBq.31$R94...@newsfe21.ams2>,
> >> > "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com> wrote:
> >> >
>
> >> >> For sure. I also suspect nobody outside of Dick Francis' imagination
> >> >> has ever said 'a ton to a tanner'.
> >> >>
> >> >Google finds four hits on the Web. Two are excerpts from Francis, and
> >> >two are related to this aue thread.
> >>
> >> And I found none, in either order, in Google Books nplex in the last
> >> century. I think I might nevertheless bet, though I'm not at all sure
> >> at what odds, that there are a few other existing instances to be found.
> >> Shall we carry this forward five years?
> >
> >You might not have to wait that long. This thread has spawned another
> >Web hit, and for some reason Google also finds a third excerpt today.
> >Six hits total now; 50 per cent growth in less than 24 hours.
> >
> Does that make it trending?

Irreversibly, I suspect.

bill

[Donna Richoux]

Cassell's Dictionary of Slang has (slightly edited -- I can't do the
crossed L symbol)
1. [mid 18c] a very large unspecified amount
2 [1940s+] 100 pounds; half a ton, 50 pounds
3 [1950s+] 100 miles per hour
4 [1960s+] any unit of 100, e.g. 100 years

Etymologically, it says the Standard English "ton" meant 100 cubic feet,
which I found odd. In the US, it's been 2000 pounds of weight for as
long as I ever heard. ... Neither plugging in the weight of water nor
the weight of dry sand gives me anything near 2000 pounds.

Wikipedia says it comes from tun, a large barrel that held about 250
gallons, which does work out to be just over 2000 pounds in weight.

Either Cassell's went awry, or maybe they mean there was an intermediate
meaning connected to 100 that gave rise to these others. That would make
some sense.

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

[John Varela]

On Sat, 3 Dec 2011 14:14:32 UTC, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:

The online M-W says about ton: "1a : a unit of internal capacity for
ships equal to 100 cubic feet -called also register ton." David the
Omrud already reported that elsethread.

--
John Varela

[Nick Spalding]

On 3 Dec 2011 21:50:04 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net>
wrote:

It is specifically used for the cargo space and is not to be confused
with the displacement or actual weight of a ship.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[Mark Brader]

John Varela:

>> The online M-W says about ton: "1a : a unit of internal capacity for
>> ships equal to 100 cubic feet -called also register ton." David the
>> Omrud already reported that elsethread.

Nick Spalding:

> It is specifically used for the cargo space and is not to be confused
> with the displacement or actual weight of a ship.

So 1 register ton of cargo space would hold 1 ton of cargo if
the cargo's specific gravity was about 0.32 or 0.36 (if the ton of
cargo is short or long respectively). Or somewhat denser if we
assume that some of the space would be wasted.

I wonder if, at the time this measure came into use, there was some
especially common cargo that had a density in that approximate range.
--
Mark Brader "The worst things may happen, including a program
Toronto that works fine on your computer but crashes
m...@vex.net on your customer's machine." -- Dan Pop

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 16:41:50 -0600, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>John Varela:
>>> The online M-W says about ton: "1a : a unit of internal capacity for
>>> ships equal to 100 cubic feet -called also register ton." David the
>>> Omrud already reported that elsethread.
>
>Nick Spalding:
>> It is specifically used for the cargo space and is not to be confused
>> with the displacement or actual weight of a ship.
>
>So 1 register ton of cargo space would hold 1 ton of cargo if
>the cargo's specific gravity was about 0.32 or 0.36 (if the ton of
>cargo is short or long respectively). Or somewhat denser if we
>assume that some of the space would be wasted.
>
>I wonder if, at the time this measure came into use, there was some
>especially common cargo that had a density in that approximate range.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonnage#Origins

Origins

Historically, tonnage was the tax on tuns (casks) of wine that held
approximately 252 gallons of wine and weighed approximately 2,240
pounds. This suggests that the unit of weight measurement, long tons
(also 2,240 lb) and tonnage both share the same etymology. The
confusion between weight based terms (deadweight and displacement)
stems from this common source and the eventual decision to assess
dues based on a ship's deadweight rather than counting the tuns of
wine. In 1720 the Builder's Old Measurement Rule was adopted to
estimate deadweight from the length of keel and maximum breadth or
beam of a ship. This overly simplistic system was replaced by the
Moorsom System in 1854 and calculated internal volume, not weight.
This system evolved into the current set of internationally accepted
rules and regulations.

[Mark Brader]

Mark Brader:

>> I wonder if, at the time this measure came into use, there was some
>> especially common cargo that had a density in that approximate range.

Peter Duncanson:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonnage#Origins

Sheesh, I'm getting tired of this. If I wanted to know what Wikipedia
said about it, I'd look there myself.
--
Mark Brader | ...politicians are forever seeking a "level playing field":
Toronto | it lets them talk out of both sides of their mouth.
m...@vex.net | --Roland Hutchinson

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Tue, 06 Dec 2011 02:24:36 -0600, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Mark Brader:
>>> I wonder if, at the time this measure came into use, there was some
>>> especially common cargo that had a density in that approximate range.
>
>Peter Duncanson:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonnage#Origins
>
>Sheesh, I'm getting tired of this. If I wanted to know what Wikipedia
>said about it, I'd look there myself.

Indeed. The original version of my reply had comments from me, but they
were not sufficently coherent for my liking so I deleted them. I was
intending to try again. The post sans comments was accidentally sent
later after I'd done other things and had forgotten that it was
incomplete.

[Mark Brader]

Mark Brader:

>> Sheesh, I'm getting tired of this. If I wanted to know what Wikipedia
>> said about it, I'd look there myself.

Peter Duncanson:

> Indeed. The original version of my reply had comments from me, but they
> were not sufficently coherent for my liking so I deleted them. I was
> intending to try again. The post sans comments was accidentally sent
> later after I'd done other things and had forgotten that it was
> incomplete.

Thanks. And I apologize for the testiness of my tone there.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, m...@vex.net | "Able was I ere I saw Panama."

[Don Phillipson]

"Mark Brader" <m...@vex.net> wrote in message
news:XrKdnVyQ2ecz1UDT...@vex.net...

> So 1 register ton of cargo space would hold 1 ton of cargo if
> the cargo's specific gravity was about 0.32 or 0.36 (if the ton of
> cargo is short or long respectively). Or somewhat denser if we
> assume that some of the space would be wasted.
>
> I wonder if, at the time this measure came into use, there was some
> especially common cargo that had a density in that approximate range.

This seems unlikely. When the (Victorian) GRT system was adopted
the most common cargoes were coal, obviously much heavier, and
tea, obviously much lighter. I'd guess the GRT system had more to
do with taxation than either safety or carrying capacity. (Disclosure:
my father was a British merchant navy officer in the 1930s, thereafter a
dock superintendent and expert witness in law cases about cargo handling.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa Canada)

[Dr Nick]

The Dent Dictionary of measurement says of "ton":

That the word /ton/ is at least as much a measure of volume as it is of
weight is really only to be expected. in that the term derives as a
variant of the TUN, a large unit of volume...

Of "tun":

The word is ancient, probably borrowed in late Latin (/tunna/) from
Celtic maritime sources, but found particularly in northern and western
European variants that have to do both with volume (as the Danish
/tønde/) and with weight (as the English /ton/ and the Spanish/Portugese
/tonelada/).

Under "ton" it mentions it being 100 as a score in cricket or darts or a
speed, but doesn't suggest an origin.

A tun turns out to be around 1000 litres, so that doesn't explain why
the register ton is about 3 times this.
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk

[harl...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, December 1, 2011 2:18:37 PM UTC-5, the Omrud wrote:
> On 01/12/2011 17:44, Django Cat wrote:
>
> > the Omrud wrote:
>
> >
>
> >>> I think you have the meaning right. In British English, a 'ton' is
>
> >>> slang for 100 pounds and a 'tanner' is slang for a sixpence, which
>
> >>> is not used any more, and which was a lot less that 100 pounds. You
>
> >>> need someone from the UK to tell you how common such terms are
>
> >>> nowadays. They're nearly unknown in North America, to the best of
>
> >>> my knowledge, especially 'ton'.
>
> >>
>
> >> Eeek, I didn't think of "ton" being £100.
>
> >
>
> > Do you remember 'ton-up lads'?
>
>
>
> Er, yes, but that was to do with speed on a motorcycle. Or did they
>
> balance 20 fivers on their heads?
>
>
>
> I have a feeling that "ton" for £100 is a London expression, like pony,
>
> monkey and dachshund or whatever. Or if not London, they were not
>
> employed by my middle-class forebears.
>
>
>

> --
>
> David

I googled the expression "ton to a tanner" because I was reading Dick Francis' novel "Dead Cert" that includes the quote:
'The stupid little sod couldn't keep his mouth shut,' said Sandy violently. 'Waving that brown paper at Liverpool and yelling for you. I saw what was written on it, and told Fielder, that's all. I didn't know what it meant, but it was a ton to a tanner the boss wouldn't like it. Joe was asking for it.'

Curiously enough, the last book I reread before "Dead Cert" was another Dick Francis novel, "For Kicks", in which this quote us found: "It took me until late afternoon to find exactly what I wanted, a souped- up 500 cc Norton, four years old and the ex-property of a now one-legged young man who had done the ton once too often on the Great North Road. The salesman gave me these details with relish as he took my money and assured me that the bike would still do a hundred at a push."

It appears to me that the British think a ton is a hundred of something. Ir might be related to having 240 pennies to the pound, unlike Americans that think of 100 pennies to a pound.

George Bernard Shaw said we were two nations separated by a common language, but having tried to solve one too many crossword puzzles based on Cockney rhyming slang, I think it's not a common language at all but a terrorist plot to make us think we're illiterate.

[Curlytop]

harl...@gmail.com set the following eddies spiralling through the
space-time continuum:

>> I have a feeling that "ton" for £100 is a London expression, like pony,
>> monkey and dachshund or whatever. Or if not London, they were not
>> employed by my middle-class forebears.

They still get the occasional airing in the provinces. When I had to put up
£1500 deposit to have the windows and doors replaced recently, thoughts
of "three wise monkeys" went through my mind. Was I making the right
decision, or wasting money on a waggonload of cowboys?

In fact the job went well - the windows are fine and the people brought in
to fit them did a thoroughly good job - no horror story of cowboys doing a
botch here.
--
ξ: ) Proud to be curly

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

[Adam Funk]

On 2011-12-01, Cheryl wrote:

> I think you have the meaning right. In British English, a 'ton' is slang
> for 100 pounds and a 'tanner' is slang for a sixpence, which is not used
> any more, and which was a lot less that 100 pounds. You need someone
> from the UK to tell you how common such terms are nowadays. They're
> nearly unknown in North America, to the best of my knowledge, especially
> 'ton'.

In the USA, "ton" for 100 in darts scoring is, um, about as well known
as darts scoring is. There used to be a darts bar in Blacksburg, VA,
called the "Ton 80 Club".


--
The kid's a hot prospect. He's got a good head for merchandising, an
agent who can take you downtown and one of the best urine samples I've
seen in a long time. [Dead Kennedys t-shirt]

[Ian Jackson]

In message <19c6abc8-a7b6-40f7...@googlegroups.com>,
harl...@gmail.com writes

>


>
>It appears to me that the British think a ton is a hundred of
>something. Ir might be related to having 240 pennies to the pound,
>unlike Americans that think of 100 pennies to a pound.

Just a point of information.....
Unless my memory is completely adrift, on the day the UK went decimal
(15 February, 1971), the exchange rate just happened to be $2.40 to the
pound. That meant that a UK (old) penny was the same value as USA
'penny'. Spooky, eh?

>

>

--
Ian

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Tue, 21 May 2013 12:43:45 -0700 (PDT), harl...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>It appears to me that the British think a ton is a hundred of something.

That is the way it is sometimes used.

It is surprisingly recent usage judging by the dates of the quotations
in the OED:

5. trans.
a. colloq. A score of one hundred in a game, spec. in Cricket
(= century n. 3b) and Darts.

1936 R. Croft-Cooke Darts vi. 42 Ton, the word means simply 100.
While in more gentlemanly games they speak of Centuries, in Darts
we curtly say ‘One Ton’.
1946 J. Moore Brensham Village iii. 95 Darts has its own
esoteric terminology... A hundred is a ‘ton’, of course, all over
England.
1958 Punch 9 July 40/2, I owe everything to Cambridge. I got a
ton in the Freshman's Match of 1941.
....

b. slang. A hundred pounds.

1946 People 7 Apr. 2/6 A red-faced punter..whose conversational
powers were limited to..jargon, which translated fivers as
‘flims’..; £100 as a ‘ton’ [etc.].

....

c. colloq. A speed of one hundred miles per hour (esp. with
reference to motor cycles). Freq. in phr. to do the (or a) ton .
Cf. ton-up n.

1954 G. Smith Flaw in Crystal iv. 36 At eighty I felt a wild
sense of elation... I watched to see if Several would triumphantly
lead Teddy onwards at a majestic full ton.
....

d. In other miscellaneous colloq. uses to denote one hundred.

1962 Electronics Weekly 21 Nov. 3/1 Elliott reach a ton. The
100th National Elliott 803 computer has been installed.

The OED doesn't suggest an origin for ton = hundred.

There is a non-specific sense of ton that goes back centuries:
4.
b. (colloq.) A very large amount: cf. load n. 6. Mostly in pl.

1770 P. Freneau in Brackenridge & Freneau Father Bombo (1975) i.
iii. 13 My head stuck a considerable time in a ton of mud.
1895 Daily News 25 Apr. 6/3 ‘Is there any culture at Chicago?’
asked a young lady of Boston of a damsel of the former city. ‘You
bet your sweet life!.. Tons of it’, was the reply.
1899 H. Sweet Pract. Study Languages x. 115, I am told that the
great English lexicographers of the present day look down with
contempt on anything less than a ton of such materials.
1911 J. M. Barrie Peter & Wendy iv. 68 ‘I say! Do you kill many
[pirates]?’ ‘Tons.’
1971 Scope (S. Afr.) 19 Mar. 38/1 Fine, thanks a ton, Len. I
won't be a sec.
1977 Belfast Tel. 28 Feb. 20/8 This has brought the lass on a
ton.

c. pl. As adv. qualifying comparative or (U.S.) positive adjs.:
much; very. colloq.

1908 S. Wilson Let. 17 Aug. in R. S. Churchill Winston S.
Churchill (1969) II. Compan. ii. 804. I feel tons better for
being in the wonderful air.
1970 ‘D. Halliday’ Dolly & Cookie Bird viii. 127 He was looking
tons better, with his ribs done up in crèpe.
1977 Amer. Speech 1975 50 68 Tons adv, very, extremely. ‘Her
outfit is tons neat.’

Perhaps that general sense of "ton" was then adopted as a specific
colloquial term for one hundred.

[CDB]

On 21/05/2013 4:10 PM, Curlytop wrote:
> harl...@gmail.com set:

>>> I have a feeling that "ton" for £100 is a London expression, like pony,
>>> monkey and dachshund or whatever. Or if not London, they were not
>>> employed by my middle-class forebears.

> They still get the occasional airing in the provinces. When I had to put up
> £1500 deposit to have the windows and doors replaced recently, thoughts
> of "three wise monkeys" went through my mind. Was I making the right
> decision, or wasting money on a waggonload of cowboys?

> In fact the job went well - the windows are fine and the people brought in
> to fit them did a thoroughly good job - no horror story of cowboys doing a
> botch here.

Oh, thank God. I thought I was going to have to learn more rhyming slang.

[Mike L]

I remember that milestone, but somehow - quite likely wrongly - my
mind links it with devaluation.

--
Mike.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <ukcqp857b10ua0smh...@4ax.com>, Mike L
<n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes

The big deliberate devaluation was carried out by Harold Wilson's
government, in 1967 - when he gaily announced that "It does not mean
that the pound here in Britain, in your pocket or purse or in your bank,
has been devalued."
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/19/newsid_3208
000/3208396.stm>
However, I'm pretty sure that decimalization did cause a lot of price
rises for low-priced items. My theory is that on 'D-Day', something
costing (say) one shilling and sixpence ('one and six', and written as
1s/6d or even simply as 1/6) correctly became 7.5 (new) pence.
Unfortunately, 7.5p seemed remarkably cheap, and soon it became more
like 16p - which looks very similar to 1/6, but is over twice the
pre-decimalization price.
--
Ian

[the Omrud]

I first went to work in the US in June 1975, when the exchange rate was
$2.40. When I returned for a second summer in June 1976 it had dropped
to $2.00, which horrified us.

As I child, I sort of "knew" that there were three dollars to the pound.

--
David

[Ian Jackson]

In message <4rknt.31422$su.1...@fx28.am4>, the Omrud
<usenet...@gmail.com> writes

Indeed. I had relations who emigrated to the USA, and every Christmas
(in the 1940s and early 50s), they would send me three dollar bills.
These were duly exchanged for pounds, and I recall getting around 7s/6d
each (just less than 3 dollars to the pound).

On the other hand, wasn't the half crown, 2s/6d, colloquially called
"half a dollar"? This would make a dollar 5 shillings - ie , at one
time, 4 dollars to the pound.
--
Ian

[the Omrud]

Right, I think that was the approximate exchange rate for many years
before the 60s.

--
David

[Nick Spalding]

Ian Jackson wrote, in <NGG6agYA...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>
on Wed, 22 May 2013 22:36:00 +0100:

Call that big? The big one was in 1949 when the Attlee government
devalued from $4.03 to $2.80.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[Lanarcam]

Le 22/05/2013 23:36, Ian Jackson a �crit :

We have had the same thing here, and as I have been told, also in
Germany and elsewhere when the Euro was introduced.

[Dr Nick]

My (undated) copy of Beethoven's Sonatas is priced at $1.50 and 2/6. Of
course that doesn't mean it was the actual exchange rate.

[Robin Bignall]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 20:23:48 +0200, Lanarcam <lana...@yahoo.fr> wrote:

Even now, my statements from my French bank give the amounts in euros
and francs.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England (BrE)

[Lanarcam]

Le 23/05/2013 22:56, Robin Bignall a �crit :

> On Thu, 23 May 2013 20:23:48 +0200, Lanarcam <lana...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>

>> Le 22/05/2013 23:36, Ian Jackson a �crit :

Mines are only in euros. I suspect that the software has not been
updated. At the time when the euro was introduced, we had amounts
both in euros and francs.

I have read in a legal document that because of rounding errors
amounts in francs could not be mixed up with amounts in euros.

[Robin Bignall]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 23:07:02 +0200, Lanarcam <lana...@yahoo.fr> wrote:

>Le 23/05/2013 22:56, Robin Bignall a écrit :
>> On Thu, 23 May 2013 20:23:48 +0200, Lanarcam <lana...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>>

The bank is Societe Generale, which is certainly big enough to afford a
software update. And I don't think it's because I'm a foreign customer,
because I also get statements to include in a French income tax return,
although they know I pay such taxes in England.

>I have read in a legal document that because of rounding errors
>amounts in francs could not be mixed up with amounts in euros.

I've never bothered to check the conversion factor, because I see that
the euro number is correct.

[Robert Bannister]

So that's when a dollar was five shillings. I always wondered.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 24/05/13 4:56 AM, Robin Bignall wrote:
> On Thu, 23 May 2013 20:23:48 +0200, Lanarcam <lana...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>

>> Le 22/05/2013 23:36, Ian Jackson a �crit :

At least they've given up on the old francs. I was amazed that people
were still quoting things in old francs in the 80s.

--
Robert Bannister

[Nick Spalding]

Robert Bannister wrote, in <b08591...@mid.individual.net>
on Fri, 24 May 2013 11:31:45 +0800:

I only remember it in use for property prices, not in shops.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[Robin Bignall]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 11:20:06 +0100, Nick Spalding <spal...@iol.ie>
wrote:

They still do, for property. My ex just sold our family house in France
and moved to a bungalow in a cheaper area (Epone) nearer to our sons.
She got confused by all the millions until she divided by 100 and
thought again.

[Mike L]

I suspect it goes back to the 19thC. OED remarks simply " slang. A
five-shilling piece; a crown " without an example; but there's a
published Australian example from 1911.

--
Mike.

[Robert Bannister]

Not written, but spoken, especially by older people (i.e. probably
younger than most of us, but old to me back then).

--
Robert Bannister

[Mike L]

When did they stop saying "balles"?

--
Mike.

[Lanarcam]

Le 25/05/2013 23:03, Mike L a �crit :

> On Sat, 25 May 2013 09:54:09 +0800, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>
>> On 24/05/13 6:20 PM, Nick Spalding wrote:
>>> Robert Bannister wrote, in <b08591...@mid.individual.net>
>>> on Fri, 24 May 2013 11:31:45 +0800:
>>>
>>>> On 24/05/13 4:56 AM, Robin Bignall wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 May 2013 20:23:48 +0200, Lanarcam <lana...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>>>>>

>>>>>> Le 22/05/2013 23:36, Ian Jackson a �crit :

Before, it was "T'as pas cent balles ?", now it is
"T'as pas deux euros ?" the inflation is everywhere.