Suicide Seat & Hemingway Seat
Pjk
seat was considered the most dangerous to be seated in if there were
an accident; therefore the shotgun position also came to be known as
the suicide seat. The seat located directly behind the front passenger
seat is sometimes referred to as the Cobain or "Hemingway", after
musician Kurt Cobain and author Ernest Hemingway, each of whom
committed suicide with a shotgun (hence the seat "behind the shotgun"
renders these special names).
Riding shotgun, as far as I know, comes from the second man on a wagon
or stagecoach sitting next to the driver holding a shotgun for
protection.
Is there an attribution for "suicide seat, and either the Cobain or
Hemingway seat?
Thanks
Pjk
Leslie Danks
> Prior to the advent of seat belts and airbags, the front passenger
> seat was considered the most dangerous to be seated in if there were
> an accident; therefore the shotgun position also came to be known as
> the suicide seat.
We used to call it the "death seat".
Also, the pillion passenger on a motorbike usually comes off worse in the
case of an accident.
[...]
--
Les (BrE)
Cece
In 50+ years, I've never heard either of these.
Leslie Danks
In that case I'm old enough to have ridden in cars before you were born.
Perhaps the expression "death seat" died with it's victims while you were
still a babe in arms.
--
Les (BrE)
Evan Kirshenbaum
I've never seen it before, but a Google Books search turns up 63 hits
for "suicide seat", most of them relevant. The earliest is from 1971,
although one book refers to it being called that in the '60s. Looking
at the _NY Times_, I see one hit (in scare quotes) in an ad
(1/27/1954) for the 1/30/1954 _Saturday Evening Post_ and another in
a Gimbels ad (9/25/1955) for seatbelts.
It's amusing seeing an ad introducing such a now-commonplace item.
The highway is often the road to danger, but auto fatalities can
be prevented. 75% of auto deaths are caused by being thrown from
the seat. This safety belt is designed to hold your body in the
safe auto seat zone, eliminating the "suicide" seat and cutting
down on the chances of serious injury. Its effectiveness has been
so widely recognized that many companies lower insurance rates for
cars with approved belts, and in many areas, laws requiring
installation are being passed.
Interestingly, they say "The Irvin safety belt is designed exactly
like those used by the airlines". I had always assumed that airplane
belts were modeled after car belts rather than the other way around.
After those two hits, there's nothing until 1986.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |To express oneself
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |In seventeen syllables
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Is very diffic
| Tony Finch
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Maria Conlon
> Prior to the advent of seat belts and airbags, the front passenger
> seat was considered the most dangerous to be seated in if there were
> an accident; therefore the shotgun position also came to be known as
> the suicide seat. The seat located directly behind the front passenger
> seat is sometimes referred to as the Cobain or "Hemingway", after
> musician Kurt Cobain and author Ernest Hemingway, each of whom
> committed suicide with a shotgun (hence the seat "behind the shotgun"
> renders these special names).
I've never heard the terms "suicide seat," (for the "shotgun" position)
or "Cobain" or "Hemingway" in reference to the seat behind the front
passenger seat.
> Riding shotgun, as far as I know, comes from the second man on a wagon
> or stagecoach sitting next to the driver holding a shotgun for
> protection.
That's my impression, too.
> Is there an attribution for "suicide seat, and either the Cobain or
> Hemingway seat?
When I used to drive a minivan full of people (going to work), calling
out "shotgun" was common. Thought: Maybe being in the front indicates
importance and control,* while back-seat passengers are, by their
position, lesser beings.
*Control of the radio/tapedeck/CD player and the heat and air
conditioning, if not the steering wheel and gas pedal.
Note: With a two-door sedan, riding shotgun makes perfect sense: it
makes it easier to get out of the car when the trip is over.
Maria Conlon, who's never had 2-door car.
Skitt
<snip>
> I had always assumed that airplane belts were modeled after
> car belts rather than the other way around.
<snip>
Airplanes had belts much before (in the 1930s) they were common in cars
(mid-1950s, but mostly 1960s). Sure, car seat belts existed before then,
but they were not common.
I didn't start using them until it became illegal not to (California, in
1986).
--
Skitt (AmE)
Sara Lorimer
> Prior to the advent of seat belts and airbags, the front passenger
> seat was considered the most dangerous to be seated in if there were
> an accident; therefore the shotgun position also came to be known as
> the suicide seat. The seat located directly behind the front passenger
> seat is sometimes referred to as the Cobain or "Hemingway", after
> musician Kurt Cobain and author Ernest Hemingway, each of whom
> committed suicide with a shotgun (hence the seat "behind the shotgun"
> renders these special names).
I've never heard of "the Cobain" or "Hemmingway" being used this way.
Where have you seen or heard this?
I am familiar with the term "suicide seat," a.k.a. "coffin corner" --
that's what my dad called it.
--
SML
Mark Brader
> I am familiar with the term "suicide seat,"
I may have heard it once or twice before this thread, but no more.
> a.k.a. "coffin corner" -- that's what my dad called it.
Interesting! The *only* context in which I know that phrase is in
relation to aircraft performance: it describes a situation where
the plane will start losing lift and maybe fall out of the sky if
it goes *either faster or slower*. The term refers to the corner
of the graph seen here:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y120/Aeroweanie/FlightEnvelope.png
--
Mark Brader | "The default choice ... is in many ways the most
Toronto | important thing. ... People can get started
m...@vex.net | without reading a big manual." -- Brian Kernighan
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Pjk
People - thanks for the leads and I'll follow up with the references
via the NYTimes.
Re seabelts in cars...I recall reading that a paradign shift in
vehicle safety occurred when people realized that it wasn't hitting a
tree that harmed people, it was peolple hitting the windshild
(windscreen). Thus the shift from stronger front bumpers to seatbelts.
Pjk
Leslie Danks
> Re seabelts in cars...I recall reading that a paradign shift in
> vehicle safety occurred when people realized that it wasn't hitting a
> tree that harmed people, it was peolple hitting the windshild
> (windscreen). Thus the shift from stronger front bumpers to seatbelts.
Did anyone hit on the cheaper solution of removing the windscreen?
--
Les (BrE)
John Varela
wrote:
> Pjk wrote:
>
> > Prior to the advent of seat belts and airbags, the front passenger
> > seat was considered the most dangerous to be seated in if there were
> > an accident; therefore the shotgun position also came to be known as
> > the suicide seat.
>
> We used to call it the "death seat".
Same here. I never heard "suicide seat". I did, however, know the
term "suicide door" for a car door with the hinges toward the rear
of the car. If such a door came open at speed the wind would hold
it open and prevent it being closed.
See "Suicide Door" in Wikipedia.
--
John Varela
Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email
Skitt
> Leslie Danks wrote:
>> Pjk wrote:
>>> Prior to the advent of seat belts and airbags, the front passenger
>>> seat was considered the most dangerous to be seated in if there were
>>> an accident; therefore the shotgun position also came to be known as
>>> the suicide seat.
>>
>> We used to call it the "death seat".
>
> Same here. I never heard "suicide seat". I did, however, know the
> term "suicide door" for a car door with the hinges toward the rear
> of the car. If such a door came open at speed the wind would hold
> it open and prevent it being closed.
At speed, I doubt that there would be anything left to close.
> See "Suicide Door" in Wikipedia.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Robin Bignall
wrote:
True, and yet rear-hinged doors were common on cars built before the
1950s, even prestige ones. I learned to drive in a 1936 Daimler coupe
with such doors. I presume there must have been some mechanical
reason, apart from the ease of entry to the vehicle.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
Skitt
I think it was purely for entry and exit comfort. Possibly a remnant of the
horse and buggy era.
http://photos.igougo.com/images/p349457-Plymouth-Stage_Coach.jpg
http://trianglecranch.com/catalog/images/stage%20coach001.jpg
The drawbacks became evident later.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Robert Bannister
My family always called it the suicide seat. We thought we'd invented it.
--
Rob Bannister
tony cooper
wrote:
My grandparents owned a 1948 Chrysler with suicide doors. When I was
about 12, I was sitting in the back and one of the doors was not
completely closed. I opened it to re-close it, the door flew open,
and I was propelled out into the roadway. Luckily, my grandmother was
driving at her usual sedate speed and there were no cars behind us.
Despite rolling on the pavement for what must have been almost a 100
yards, I was completely unhurt. My grandmother was so upset that she
had to park and wait until her knees stopped shaking before
proceeding.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
tony cooper
wrote:
>John Varela wrote:
In the incident I mentioned in the post I just made, there was no
damage to the door.
Skitt
> "Skitt" wrote:
>> John Varela wrote:
>>> Leslie Danks wrote:
>>>> Pjk wrote:
>>>>> Prior to the advent of seat belts and airbags, the front passenger
>>>>> seat was considered the most dangerous to be seated in if there
>>>>> were an accident; therefore the shotgun position also came to be
>>>>> known as the suicide seat.
>>>>
>>>> We used to call it the "death seat".
>>>
>>> Same here. I never heard "suicide seat". I did, however, know the
>>> term "suicide door" for a car door with the hinges toward the rear
>>> of the car. If such a door came open at speed the wind would hold
>>> it open and prevent it being closed.
>>
>> At speed, I doubt that there would be anything left to close.
>>
>>> See "Suicide Door" in Wikipedia.
>
> In the incident I mentioned in the post I just made, there was no
> damage to the door.
Yes -- the whole thing hinges (or unhinges) on the term "at speed".
--
Skitt (AmE)
Skitt
> "Skitt" wrote:
>> John Varela wrote:
>>> Leslie Danks wrote:
>>>> Pjk wrote:
>>>>> Prior to the advent of seat belts and airbags, the front passenger
>>>>> seat was considered the most dangerous to be seated in if there
>>>>> were an accident; therefore the shotgun position also came to be
>>>>> known as the suicide seat.
>>>>
>>>> We used to call it the "death seat".
>>>
>>> Same here. I never heard "suicide seat". I did, however, know the
>>> term "suicide door" for a car door with the hinges toward the rear
>>> of the car. If such a door came open at speed the wind would hold
>>> it open and prevent it being closed.
>>
>> At speed, I doubt that there would be anything left to close.
>>
>>> See "Suicide Door" in Wikipedia.
>
> In the incident I mentioned in the post I just made, there was no
> damage to the door.
In my previous answer, I forgot to include this:
http://www.avonhill.com/thumbnails/classic/1940_Chrysler_Windsor.jpeg
--
Skitt (AmE)
tony cooper
wrote:
Well, the speed at which my grandmother was driving would rip the door
off of a modern vehicle. The speed was sufficient to blow open the
door and lift a 100 pound boy off the seat, but those older cars were
made of stronger stuff.
tony cooper
wrote:
My grandparents' car was a 1948 Chrysler New Yorker. Same basic style
as the image you linked to, though.
Jerry Friedman
> Sara Lorimer:
>
> > I am familiar with the term "suicide seat,"
>
> I may have heard it once or twice before this thread, but no more.
>
> > a.k.a. "coffin corner" -- that's what my dad called it.
>
> Interesting! The *only* context in which I know that phrase is in
> relation to aircraft performance: it describes a situation where
> the plane will start losing lift and maybe fall out of the sky if
> it goes *either faster or slower*. The term refers to the corner
> of the graph seen here:
>
> http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y120/Aeroweanie/FlightEnvelope.png
In the football we play down here, a coffin-corner punt is one that
goes out of bounds between the receiving team's 20-yard line and the
goal line, forcing them to start deeper in their own territory than a
punt that goes into their end zone and isn't returned. That's the
only use of the phrase I'd ever heard.
(I also don't recall "suicide seat", and I'm sure I've never heard
"Hemingway" or "Cobain seat". "Shotgun" or "shot", yes.)
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
In 1936 cars didn't go that fast.
OTOH The 1950 Fiat 500 with rear hinged doors
seems to have been famous for drawing wolf whistles
when a girl tried to get out.
It was nearly impossible to do without showing a lot of leg,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
Saw a newspaper report some time ago
about a baby being lost from a car,
on the motorway at over 100 km/h.
Unharmed inside, but with severe burns on the outside.
(from spinning up at first contact)
Your grandmother can't have been going that fast,
Jan
tony cooper
I know the street it happened on - Fall Creek Parkway - so I'd guess
her speed was about 30 mph.
You'd think I'd remember everything in vivid detail, but I don't.
I remember the incident, I remember looking up and seeing my
grandmother and grandfather running towards me, and I remember that I
wasn't hurt. Everything else is a blank. I don't think that even
when I was younger that I remembered the incident in detail. I don't
even remember what time of year it was and if I was bundled up in
heavy clothing.
I don't know if I rolled or spun horizontally. If I was spinning on
my back, road burns would not be as likely if I had a coat on.
I was discussing this with someone several years ago, and they said
that the mind sometimes does this: blanks out the details of traumatic
events as a healing process. I don't know if there's anything to that
or not. Perhaps I was more frightened than I remember. I don't
remember it as a frightening event.
Cece
In 1961, the DC-7 and the Boeing 707 we rode in had seatbelts. The
1961 Oldsmobile we drove around at home did not.
Skitt
As far as that goes, not much wind speed is required to exert a considerable
force (or pressure) on a large surface (or, in turn, by that large surface).
One of my former workmates found that out when he thought it safe to unlatch
a 4-foot diameter cover from a missile simulator while it was still under 1
psi pressure differential from the ambient.
But yes -- they did build some tank-like cars in the days of yore.
--
Skitt (AmE)
John Varela
wrote:
Looking at that photo suggests to me that the reason for the suicide
door was that the B pillar wasn't strong enough to support a door.
Skitt
Then again, hinging the door at the back eliminates the need for a strong B
pillar. Chicken-and-egg thing, sort of.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Mike Lyle
[...]
>
> My family always called it the suicide seat. We thought we'd invented
> it.
I think of it as quite a common BritEtc expression, which didn't fade
out till everybody had seat belts. To my discomfort, my car, now quite
old, has an airbag only for the driver...
--
Mike.
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> In 1961, the DC-7 and the Boeing 707 we rode in had seatbelts. The
> 1961 Oldsmobile we drove around at home did not.
My 1960 Chevy Bel Air had seat belts (just lap belts; no shoulder),
but I had to order them as an extra. A classmate of mine at Berkeley
had seat belts installed in his 1950 Chevy. He was a bit of a safety
nut, but we stopped making fun of him when he endured a head-on
collision and walked away.
--
Bob Lieblich
Who's been wearing seat belts pretty consistently since 1960
Richard Bollard
Lodder) wrote:
...
>
>Saw a newspaper report some time ago
>about a baby being lost from a car,
>on the motorway at over 100 km/h.
>Unharmed inside, but with severe burns on the outside.
>(from spinning up at first contact)
>
...
Something about the line length there gave me STS for "A Day in the
Life". I was trying to make it scan before I realized it was prose.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
J. J. Lodder
> On Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:17:25 +0200, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> Lodder) wrote:
>
> ...
> >
> >Saw a newspaper report some time ago
> >about a baby being lost from a car,
> >on the motorway at over 100 km/h.
> >Unharmed inside, but with severe burns on the outside.
> >(from spinning up at first contact)
> >
> ...
>
> Something about the line length there gave me STS for "A Day in the
> Life". I was trying to make it scan before I realized it was prose.
Just \raggedright to 50 \chars,
slightly corrected by hand,
Jan
John Varela
<r_s_li...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Cece wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
> > In 1961, the DC-7 and the Boeing 707 we rode in had seatbelts. The
> > 1961 Oldsmobile we drove around at home did not.
>
> My 1960 Chevy Bel Air had seat belts (just lap belts; no shoulder),
> but I had to order them as an extra. A classmate of mine at Berkeley
> had seat belts installed in his 1950 Chevy. He was a bit of a safety
> nut, but we stopped making fun of him when he endured a head-on
> collision and walked away.
I was in an accident in 1960 in which the door flew open and I fell
out into the street. Since then I and my passengers have always
worn seatbelts. The 1960 VW and 1966 Plymouth did not come with
seatbelts, but the Plymouth had anchor points for them; I don't
recall if the VW did. A rear door of the Plymouth popped open in a
turn and the 4-year-old did not fall out because he was wearing his
seat belt.
J. J. Lodder
Roll along the long axis is the stable motion,
so that is the state you get in.
Same for cars: in an accident in which a car rolls
it is likely to roll with the long axis perpendicular to the velocity.
By some improbable coincidence I have seen it happen twice irl,
once spontaneously, once in a collision.
Jan
Nick
> Roll along the long axis is the stable motion,
> so that is the state you get in.
> Same for cars: in an accident in which a car rolls
> it is likely to roll with the long axis perpendicular to the velocity.
Have you seen that thing you can do with a rectangular solid where the
three dimensions are different? (A plastic food storage box will often
do). If you thow it gently in the air while putting spin on it along
the longest axis, it spins. If you throw it in the air putting spin along
the shortest axis, it also spins. But if you use the intermediate one
it tumbles.
> By some improbable coincidence I have seen it happen twice irl,
> once spontaneously, once in a collision.
If you ever plan to come to England let me know and I'll make sure I
don't drive past you.
--
Online waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk
development version: http://canalplan.eu
J. J. Lodder
> nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) writes:
>
> > Roll along the long axis is the stable motion,
> > so that is the state you get in.
> > Same for cars: in an accident in which a car rolls
> > it is likely to roll with the long axis perpendicular to the velocity.
>
> Have you seen that thing you can do with a rectangular solid where the
> three dimensions are different? (A plastic food storage box will often
> do). If you thow it gently in the air while putting spin on it along
> the longest axis, it spins. If you throw it in the air putting spin along
> the shortest axis, it also spins. But if you use the intermediate one
> it tumbles.
>
> > By some improbable coincidence I have seen it happen twice irl,
> > once spontaneously, once in a collision.
>
> If you ever plan to come to England let me know and I'll make sure I
> don't drive past you.
I'll tell you.
Perhaps for a curry-chocolate free boink?
We might agree to meet on foot.
Not much to avoid though.
The first time I was just an innocent bystander on the sidewalk.
Two cars colliding near me.
For the second one avoiding would be even more difficult.
I happened to be sitting in the front seat of a touring car,
next to the driver.
(the seat normally reserved for a guide person)
The driver warned me to look at the car ahead.
It wasn't on a stable course, it swerved in it's lane.
The driver appeared to be falling asleep.
Suddenly it went, swerved sharply, turned ninety degrees,
and rolled on along the road without changing direction.
About three three times round, ended wheels down,
car still perpendicular to the road.
(Newton rules)
The occupants appeared to be shaken, but unharmed.
If I hadn't seen it happen I wouldn't have believed it possible.
Both incidents happened long ago,
Jan