Gaudy Night
Franklin Cacciutto
universities when I read Dorothy Sayers' novel of that name many years
ago. I assumed then that the festival was of recent origin.
However, I have now stumbled upon "Come, let's have one other gaudy
night" in Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra and wonder about the source
of the term and the tradition. Is there perhaps some medieval
antecedent?
Joseph C Fineman
When I was at St Andrews University (Scotland) ca. 1959, a singing
party was called a "gaudie", and the word was taken as an allusion to
the old student song "Gaudeamus Igitur" (Let Us Then Be Merry), which
was always the last song of the evening.
John Dean
Franklin Cacciutto <shad...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39D62728...@earthlink.net...
> I learned about the tradition of Gaudy Night in British colleges and
> universities when I read Dorothy Sayers' novel of that name many years
> ago. I assumed then that the festival was of recent origin.
>
> However, I have now stumbled upon "Come, let's have one other gaudy
> night" in Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra and wonder about the source
> of the term and the tradition. Is there perhaps some medieval
> antecedent?
>
predominantly Oxford institution being a reunion of alumni, often including
a dinner. Examples for Magdalen College at
http://www.magd.ox.ac.uk/society/#gaudies
'Gaudy' in this context is to do with celebration and the adjective was in
use before Shakespeare. However, his use of 'gaudy night' seems to be the
first recorded instance of the whole term. Whether he took it from usage or
usage took it from him I don't know. I'm sure someone here does.
--
John Dean -- Oxford
I am anti-spammed -- defrag me to reply
m.midorikawa
"Franklin Cacciutto" wrote:
> I learned about the tradition of Gaudy Night in British colleges and
> universities when I read Dorothy Sayers' novel of that name many
> years ago. I assumed then that the festival was of recent origin.
>
> However, I have now stumbled upon "Come, let's have one other
> gaudy night" in Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra and wonder
> about the source of the term and the tradition. Is there perhaps
> some medieval antecedent?
>
>
C.T. Onions, revised by R.D. Eagleson, _A Shakespeare Glossary_ (1988)
gives:
"gaudy-night n. Night of rejoicing. ANT 3.13.182 _Let's have one other
gaudy night_."
It's not "Gaudy Night in British colleges and universities festival," but a
good time.
Adrian Room writes of "gaudy" in _Dictionary of Britain_ (1986):
"An annual celebratory dinner held in the colleges of Oxford University and
Cambridge University to which former students of particular years are
invited."
Betty Kirkpatrick, ed., _Brewer's Concise Dicitionary of Phrase and Fable_
(1992) says:
"Gaudy, or Gaudy-day (gaw' di) (Lat. _gaudium_, joy). A holiday, a
feast-day; especially an annual celebration of some event, such as the
foundation of a college."
They give no origins of the celebration.
m.midorikawa
Herbert Stahlke
pronounced to rhyme with "rowdy", not "bawdy". The source of the word
is the Latin word "gaudeamus" as in the Medieval student song "Gaudeamus
igitur" ("Let us therefore rejoice"). Not connected to the modern word
"gaudy".
Herb Stahlke
Ball State University
Alan Jones
"Herbert Stahlke" <hsta...@netdirect.net> wrote in message
news:39d79611$0$35018$4156...@news.netdirect.net...
| I can't tell you much about the history, but the word "gaudy" is
| pronounced to rhyme with "rowdy", not "bawdy". The source of the word
| is the Latin word "gaudeamus" as in the Medieval student song
"Gaudeamus
| igitur" ("Let us therefore rejoice"). Not connected to the modern
word
| "gaudy".
Not at Oxford, where indeed it does rhyme with bawdy, though I've never
seen "Gaudy night" in that context. "The Gaudy" is the word for the
whole event, including, at my college, a lecture and a religious service
as well as a dinner with unbelievable wines. The Cambridge equivalent is
apparently a Feast.
Anyway, in traditional English prounciation of Latin, "gaudeamus" would
have been "gawdee-ay-mus". I know we all sing "Gow-day-ah-mus" these
days.
History: The word "gaudy"=showy, colourful is thought to come from the
same Latin source as "gaudy"=festivity, and "gaudies" has also been used
for decorative trimmings, votive candles before an image and luxury
foods. OED says that the actual word of origin may be Latin
"gaudium"=joy or "gaude"=rejoice! but that in some senses it may come
through Old French "gaudir"=to rejoice or make merry and its noun
"gaudie"=merrymaking. There are other related words, all obsolete but
connected in sense either to the "showy" or"festivity" words still in
use and ultimately to the Latin.
Alan Jones
Skitt
"Alan Jones" <a...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:%xNB5.25163$gw4.2...@news1.cableinet.net...
>
> Anyway, in traditional English prounciation of Latin, "gaudeamus" would
> have been "gawdee-ay-mus".
The English, when they controlled a lot of the world, incorrectly assumed
that Latin was pronounced similarly to English, pronunciation of related
languages notwithstanding.
> I know we all sing "Gow-day-ah-mus" these days.
Education triumphs!
(One who has always known it as "gou-dey-ah-mus", I am)
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://i.am/skitt/
Wayward in Hayward
I'm going to hunt down the people who have strong opinions
on subjects they don't understand. Then I'll bop them with
this cardboard tube. -- Dogbert
Stephen Toogood
Skitt <sk...@i.am> writes
>
>"Alan Jones" <a...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:%xNB5.25163$gw4.2...@news1.cableinet.net...
>>
>> Anyway, in traditional English prounciation of Latin, "gaudeamus" would
>> have been "gawdee-ay-mus".
>
>The English, when they controlled a lot of the world, incorrectly assumed
>that Latin was pronounced similarly to English, pronunciation of related
>languages notwithstanding.
>
>> I know we all sing "Gow-day-ah-mus" these days.
>
>Education triumphs!
>
language. It hasn't really been one of those for more than a millennium.
Think of it as an out-of-copyright means of communication, which all may
appropriate, and as long as they follow the invariate grammatical rules
may do with as they will.
I don't think we know for sure how Latin was pronounced when it was a
means of everyday communication, so that Oxford's gawdeeaymus is as
legit as any.
In any case, though Oxford men have long said it that way, the evidence
seems to suggest (Harold Copeman, 'Singing in Latin') that that the sung
pronunciation was always different from this.
As far as I'm concerned you can pronounce it as you wish, (as long as
you don't pretend it's Italian...)
--
Stephen Toogood
Matti Lamprhey
"Stephen Toogood" <ste...@stenches.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote...
> >
> I reckon it's a mistake to think of Latin in terms of a foreign
> language. It hasn't really been one of those for more than a millennium.
>
> Think of it as an out-of-copyright means of communication, which all may
I agree with you there, Stephen. The thread started with the DLS book,
which I found rather boring. My favourite Wimsey is _The Nine Tailors_,
which seems to me right up your street. I do hope you've read it.
Matti
Schainbaum, Robert
Nine Tailors, the most dauntingly technical of all her novels. Nightmare!
/r
Red Valerian
<shad...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I learned about the tradition of Gaudy Night in British colleges and
>universities when I read Dorothy Sayers' novel of that name many years
>ago. I assumed then that the festival was of recent origin.
>
>However, I have now stumbled upon "Come, let's have one other gaudy
>night" in Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra and wonder about the source
>of the term and the tradition. Is there perhaps some medieval
>antecedent?
I've got a 1782 copy of Bailey's Dictionary which sheds some light:
Gaudy Days: (cf caudere, L., to rejoice)
certain Festival Days observed in Inns of Court and Colleges.
and:
Gaudies: double Commons allowed to Students on Gaudy Days.
Red
Red Valerian
wrote:
>Gaudy Days: (cf caudere, L., to rejoice)
>certain Festival Days observed in Inns of Court and Colleges.
Oops - I was touch-typing without my glasses and see that I typed
'caudere' for some reason. Should have been 'gaudere' of course.
Red
Joseph C Fineman
>The English, when they controlled a lot of the world, incorrectly
>assumed that Latin was pronounced similarly to English, pronunciation
>of related languages notwithstanding.
They were under no such misapprehension. There are plenty of real
instances of English arrogance, but the pronunciation of Latin is not
one of them. Latin was used all over the western world and naturally
suffered all the phonetic mutations in the local languages that were
partly or largely derived from it. In most Catholic churches. it used
to be pronounced remarkably like Italian -- imagine why!
If you are studying the ancient authors in school, it makes sense to
read them aloud in some approximation to what scholars suppose was the
ancient pronunciation. But we are entitled to our own pronunciation
of the Latin that came into English with Christianity and went thru
the Great Vowel Shift along with the native words.
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: Lady Luck's maiden name was Miss Fortune. :||
Skitt
"Joseph C Fineman" <j...@world.std.com> wrote in message
news:G1tnI...@world.std.com...
But is that still Latin? Too bad the Latins are no longer around, but their
language has influenced many other languages, and they seem to have gotten
it right, or is the English way the lone correct one?
This, of course, will never be settled, and why should it be -- it really
does not matter, not to the Latins anyway.
Stephen Toogood
<j...@world.std.com> writes
>"Skitt" <sk...@i.am> writes:
>
>>The English, when they controlled a lot of the world, incorrectly
>>assumed that Latin was pronounced similarly to English, pronunciation
>>of related languages notwithstanding.
>
>They were under no such misapprehension. There are plenty of real
>instances of English arrogance, but the pronunciation of Latin is not
>one of them. Latin was used all over the western world and naturally
>suffered all the phonetic mutations in the local languages that were
>partly or largely derived from it. In most Catholic churches. it used
>to be pronounced remarkably like Italian -- imagine why!
>
Church of Latin as quasi-Italian stems from a Papal Edict of 1908 (or
was it 1912?). Before that each country pronounced it in a way that
suited their natives.
Strange as it may seem, Britain took more notice than the rest of
Europe, mostly because the suppression of the Roman Church from the
Reformation until the 19th century meant that our own tradition had
virtually disappeared. In Germany and France they continue to say and
sing in manners that would have been intelligible to their ancestors
four hundred years ago.
--
Stephen Toogood
John Dean
Skitt <sk...@i.am> wrote in message
news:Ho7C5.8881$TP6....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> But is that still Latin? Too bad the Latins are no longer around,
Except in Latin America & Dan Quayle's imagination...
Olivers
....Agree.
Here in the wilds of Central Texas, both of the local RC parishes in
which most of the congregations are Mexican American draw their clergy
from a seminary in Palma, Majorca (Spain). Amusingly, upon arrival, the
priests' Spanish(modern, regionalized and scattered with bits of Catalan
and langue d'oc) is often unsuitable for two way communication with the
locals whose Spanish, 500 years removed from the heavy hand of the
Madrid's language arbiters, uses archaic verb forms, lost words and the
standard workplace Anglicisms ("Truca", etc.), easy for Don Quixote,
harder for today.
Because of the Balearics' semi-isolation, local accents or other
unattributable causes, the Latin of the Mass (back before the switch) as
used by the Spanish priests(who if not born in the Balearics, came from
the Catalan littoral) was far more comprhensible to my "Schoolboy
Latin-tuned" ear, than the far more Italianate (then termed
"Ecclesiastic") version common in US parishes. But then, years later,
as a young naval officer, my first visit to Sicily was even more
surprising. TexMex Spanish served well in Western Sicily, apparently
almost as close to the local dialect than modern Italian. later, I
found that there were enclaves in rural Italy where I could get by, but
that urban and Northern dialects defeated me.
Sadly, many of the regional accents and vocabularies of USEnglish seem
likely to disappear in the next few decades. Certainly, the several
distinctly different accents found in New Orleans (which include
upcountry Cajun, but were certainly not dominated by it) are less
well/often heard today as they were in the past. Galveston's dialects
have nearly disappeared. All too often, actors, even good actors, try
to copy/adopt the accents of the Gulf Coast, but fail by emulating
elements of 2 or 3 quite different accents, unlikely combinations.
Nobody on screen does the classic "Dalmatic", a sort of Adriatic
Italian/Croat/Greek version of English once common among shrimp boat
crews, seafood houses and the docks.
Richard Fontana
> Sadly, many of the regional accents and vocabularies of USEnglish seem
> likely to disappear in the next few decades. Certainly, the several
> distinctly different accents found in New Orleans (which include
> upcountry Cajun, but were certainly not dominated by it) are less
> well/often heard today as they were in the past. Galveston's dialects
> have nearly disappeared. All too often, actors, even good actors, try
> to copy/adopt the accents of the Gulf Coast, but fail by emulating
> elements of 2 or 3 quite different accents, unlikely combinations.
> Nobody on screen does the classic "Dalmatic", a sort of Adriatic
> Italian/Croat/Greek version of English once common among shrimp boat
> crews, seafood houses and the docks.
Some observers have shown that accent diversity is increasing in the
US rather than diminishing, at least when you consider accents associated
with urbanized areas. See, e.g.,
<http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/ICSLP4.html>.
--
Richard
Richard Fontana
>
> Skitt <sk...@i.am> wrote in message
> news:Ho7C5.8881$TP6....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
> > But is that still Latin? Too bad the Latins are no longer around,
>
> Except in Latin America & Dan Quayle's imagination...
Also in Lazio.
--
Richard
Ian Johnston
: I agree with you there, Stephen. The thread started with the DLS book,
: which I found rather boring. My favourite Wimsey is _The Nine Tailors_,
: which seems to me right up your street.
Particularly since one of the characters is called Gaude.
Ian
John Dean
Richard Fontana <re...@columbia.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.10.100100...@merhaba.cc.columbia.edu...