pooberty
Sara Lorimer
as POOberty. I -- and that calm fellow at www.m-w.com -- would say
PEWberty. Is the PEWberty pronunciation common and I've never noticed it
before, or is this Scott Simon going off into his own world?
--
SML
Mxsmanic
/'pjubR*i/ is the usual pronunciation by far.
I suppose /'pubR*i/ may gain currency in the future, since that is the
general trend in AmE as compared to BrE, but "the future" can cover
quite a long period of time. Right now, /pju/ is pretty firmly
entrenched: puberty, puce, pew, pusillanimous, puny, computer, etc.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
CyberCypher
He's in outer space with "pooberty". Bertie is a character in Thomas
the Tank Engine stories.
I've always had a problem deciding whether words such a "new" should be
pronounced as [nju] or [nu], and I'm inconsistent in my pronunciation.
Too many BrE films as a kid, I suspect.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
John Seeliger
news:1gj817i.dg36kw16lo5lwN%que.sara.sara_...@gmail.com...
I say PEWberty and this is the way I am used to hearing it.
BTW, the guy (well one of them. I think his name is Ian) from "Globe
Trekker" on PBS says "FOO" instead of "FEW".
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>Sara Lorimer writes:
>
>> I just heard Scott Simon (obTWIAVBP: American radio host) say "puberty"
>> as POOberty. I -- and that calm fellow at www.m-w.com -- would say
>> PEWberty. Is the PEWberty pronunciation common and I've never noticed it
>> before, or is this Scott Simon going off into his own world?
>
>/'pjubR*i/ is the usual pronunciation by far.
As M-W's Collegiate will tell, literally, anyone without having to
resort to funny-looking, obscure, unhelpful symbols.
Jon Miller
news:1gj817i.dg36kw16lo5lwN%que.sara.sara_...@gmail.com...
Not off in outer space, but in a decided minority. I haven't noticed any
regionalism or ethnic background to it either. I do wonder if there isn't
just a hint of discomfort with discussing sex either with the speaker or in
the speaker's family one or two generations back (hence a lack of
familiarity with the word), but the pronunciation is rare enough for me to
only wonder and not form a firm conclusion. (I would guess that this could
apply to high school biology teachers as well.)
Jon Miller
Mxsmanic
> As M-W's Collegiate will tell, literally, anyone without having to
> resort to funny-looking, obscure, unhelpful symbols.
I use the IPA for the same reason.
Mxsmanic
> Not off in outer space, but in a decided minority. I haven't noticed any
> regionalism or ethnic background to it either. I do wonder if there isn't
> just a hint of discomfort with discussing sex ...
That may be. In some cases, the person may simply have never said the
word aloud before. I met a woman once who pronounced "penis" as
/'pEnIs/; she had never said it aloud or heard it pronounced correctly
before.
Nell
Johnny Carson (the Tonight Show) says pooberty. Jarred me a bit the
first time I heard it as I use the more common pronunciation. He was
born in Corning, Iowa and raised in Norfolk, Nebraska. His background
(small Midwest towns) may have something to do with the pronunciation,
to carry through with your theory.
Nell
A synonym is a word you use when you can't spell the word you first thought of.
Areff
> Johnny Carson (the Tonight Show) says pooberty. Jarred me a bit the
> first time I heard it as I use the more common pronunciation. He was
> born in Corning, Iowa and raised in Norfolk, Nebraska. His background
> (small Midwest towns) may have something to do with the pronunciation,
> to carry through with your theory.
Is Nebraska the Midwest? I know someone from Omaha and he has sort of a
'cowboy' accent, not entirely unlike the recorded speech of Sparky
Cunningham.
--
CyberCypher
> Nell wrote:
>> Johnny Carson (the Tonight Show) says pooberty. Jarred me a bit
>> the first time I heard it as I use the more common pronunciation.
>> He was born in Corning, Iowa and raised in Norfolk, Nebraska.
>> His background (small Midwest towns) may have something to do
>> with the pronunciation, to carry through with your theory.
>
> Is Nebraska the Midwest?
Not really. It's more like the Great Plains.
> I know someone from Omaha and he has sort of a 'cowboy' accent,
Prolly a bisonboy accent.
> not entirely unlike the recorded speech of Sparky Cunningham.
>
--
R H Draney
Harry Morgan said it that way in "Support Your Local Sheriff": "Pooberty hit her
hard; it'll do that sometimes, pooberty"....
I sensed the audience was expected to laugh at the character for this
pronunciation; the audience obliged....r
Bob Cunningham
<dado...@spamcop.net> said:
> Jon Miller filted:
> >"Sara Lorimer" <que.sara.sara_...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:1gj817i.dg36kw16lo5lwN%que.sara.sara_...@gmail.com...
> >> I just heard Scott Simon (obTWIAVBP: American radio host) say "puberty"
> >> as POOberty. I -- and that calm fellow at www.m-w.com -- would say
> >> PEWberty. Is the [*]PEWberty[*] pronunciation common and I've never noticed it
> >> before, or is this Scott Simon going off into his own world?
* I assume Sara meant to write "pooberty" there.
I've never had much occasion to use the word, but it would
not have occurred to me to pronounce it any other way than
['pu:b@rti:] ("pooberty"). Now that I'm alerted, though,
I'll be listening to see if I hear anyone pronouncing it
another way.
The [pu:] ("poo") pronunciation is common enough for
_Webster's Third New International Dictionary_ (_W3NID_) to
show it as an alternative, albeit tagged with "sometimes".
By the way, note that by itself the pronunciation spelling
"poo" is at least ambiguous. "oo" can be as in "food" or
"good" ([fu:d] or [gUd]). In my speech "oo" in "poor" is
[O] (like "pore").
> >Not off in outer space, but in a decided minority. I haven't noticed any
> >regionalism or ethnic background to it either. I do wonder if there isn't
> >just a hint of discomfort with discussing sex either with the speaker or in
> >the speaker's family one or two generations back (hence a lack of
> >familiarity with the word), but the pronunciation is rare enough for me to
> >only wonder and not form a firm conclusion. (I would guess that this could
> >apply to high school biology teachers as well.)
I was around three or four generations ago, and I've never
seen a time when sex wasn't quite freely discussed in some
environments. Kids who may not have heard of puberty in
their family circle would almost certainly have learned
about it from their fellow scholars in elementary and high
schools.
I learned the word "morphadite" that way, and it wasn't
until several years later I learned that the more acceptable
spelling was "hermaphrodite".
> Harry Morgan said it that way in "Support Your Local Sheriff": "Pooberty hit her
> hard; it'll do that sometimes, pooberty"....
> I sensed the audience was expected to laugh at the character for this
> pronunciation; the audience obliged....r
I have no doubt his intonation and his thought had more to
do with making the audience laugh than did his use of a
fairly common prounciation.
Incidentally, about Sara's use of the pronunciation spelling
"pew" to indicate (I assume) the pronunciation [pju:]
("pyoo"), that might be puzzling for someone who has the
widespread pronunciation [nu:] ("noo") for "new", so that
"pooberty" and "pewberty" might be taken to have the same
pronunciation.
Probably not, though, since I doubt that anyone pronounces
the word "pew" itself as "poo".
It's also conceivable "ew" could be taken as the vowel in
"sew" (in the seamstress sense). (There's also a "sew"
referring to a ship running aground and pronounced [su:].)
Does anyone pronounce "Seward" or "sewage" with the [ju]
("yoo") sound? They're not shown as alternatives in
_W3NID_.
Sara Lorimer
> On 28 Aug 2004 08:35:31 -0700, R H Draney
> <dado...@spamcop.net> said:
>
> > Jon Miller filted:
>
> > >"Sara Lorimer" <que.sara.sara_...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > >message
> > >news:1gj817i.dg36kw16lo5lwN%que.sara.sara_...@gmail.com...
> > >> I just heard Scott Simon (obTWIAVBP: American radio host) say
> > >"puberty" > as POOberty. I -- and that calm fellow at www.m-w.com --
> > >would say > PEWberty. Is the [*]PEWberty[*] pronunciation common and
> > >I've never noticed it > before, or is this Scott Simon going off into
> > >his own world?
>
> * I assume Sara meant to write "pooberty" there.
You, sir, are correct.
--
SML
Jon Miller
news:Xns9553F3585...@130.133.1.4...
> Areff wrote on 28 Aug 2004:
>
> > Nell wrote:
> >> Johnny Carson (the Tonight Show) says pooberty. Jarred me a bit
> >> the first time I heard it as I use the more common pronunciation.
> >> He was born in Corning, Iowa and raised in Norfolk, Nebraska.
> >> His background (small Midwest towns) may have something to do
> >> with the pronunciation, to carry through with your theory.
> >
> > Is Nebraska the Midwest?
>
> Not really. It's more like the Great Plains.
Midwest = Ohio to Iowa and Illinois to Minnesota. Pretty much east and
north of the middle. And Northwestern University is in Evansville, just
north of Chicago. Go figure.
And the University of Michigan is (are for you Brits) "Champions of the
West". (They say so in their fight song, so it must be true.) Now look at
your map and you see how much larger the West is than the East.
The problem is history. What started this all off is that when Thomas
Jefferson signed the Northwest Territory Act, the Northwest Territory really
was northwest of the rest of the United States. It's just that everything
has shifted. Northwest became West became Midwest or Middle West is now
really pretty much Middle East but no one calls it that.
Jon Miller
Areff
> And Northwestern University is in Evansville
Oy!
Plus, as Coop can tell you, some of it is in Chicago praaper.
--
Andrew Gwilliam
> Sara Lorimer wrote on 28 Aug 2004:
>
>
>>I just heard Scott Simon (obTWIAVBP: American radio host) say
>>"puberty" as POOberty. I -- and that calm fellow at www.m-w.com --
>>would say PEWberty. Is the PEWberty pronunciation common and I've
>>never noticed it before, or is this Scott Simon going off into his
>>own world?
>
>
> He's in outer space with "pooberty". Bertie is a character in Thomas
> the Tank Engine stories.
No no, she was obviously referring to Bertie Wooster (pronounced
WOO-cest-er-shy-er).
--
Andrew Gwilliam
To email me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "silverhelm"
Andrew Gwilliam
> Jon Miller writes:
>
>
>>Not off in outer space, but in a decided minority. I haven't noticed any
>>regionalism or ethnic background to it either. I do wonder if there isn't
>>just a hint of discomfort with discussing sex ...
>
>
> That may be. In some cases, the person may simply have never said the
> word aloud before. I met a woman once who pronounced "penis" as
> /'pEnIs/; she had never said it aloud or heard it pronounced correctly
> before.
And the episode of Seinfeld in which all Jerry could remember of his
girlfriend's name was that it rhymed with a part of a woman's body
doesn't work in BrE.
Andrew Gwilliam
> And the University of Michigan is (are for you Brits) "Champions of the
> West".
I tried reading that without the paranthetical remark, and it is indeed
ungrammatical in BrE. In this particular sentence, would it really be
grammatical in AmE? Two nations, etc etc.
Tony Cooper
<jonmi...@comcast.net> wrote:
>"CyberCypher" <cyber...@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns9553F3585...@130.133.1.4...
>> Areff wrote on 28 Aug 2004:
>>
>> > Nell wrote:
>> >> Johnny Carson (the Tonight Show) says pooberty. Jarred me a bit
>> >> the first time I heard it as I use the more common pronunciation.
>> >> He was born in Corning, Iowa and raised in Norfolk, Nebraska.
>> >> His background (small Midwest towns) may have something to do
>> >> with the pronunciation, to carry through with your theory.
>> >
>> > Is Nebraska the Midwest?
>>
>> Not really. It's more like the Great Plains.
>
>Midwest = Ohio to Iowa and Illinois to Minnesota. Pretty much east and
>north of the middle. And Northwestern University is in Evansville, just
>north of Chicago. Go figure.
>
Evanston. Evansville is a town in the southwest corner of Indiana
just above Kentucky. We Hoosiers agreed at one time that the smartest
people in Indiana lived in Evansville. Vance Hartke was the Mayor of
Evansville, and - to get rid of him - they elected him US Senator and
sent him to Washington where he would blend in with the other idiots.
Evanston, Illinois is known for being the home of Northwestern
University and for being a "dry" town. Not too many "dry" towns in
the north.
Andrew Gwilliam
> Jon Miller wrote:
>
>>And Northwestern University is in Evansville
>
>
> Oy!
Yep, it's in Evanston (just checked it on their website).
Incidentally, they opened in 1855, which suggests to me that, within the
region, the "northwestern" tag had lost its original meaning but had
stayed in use.
Andrew Gwilliam
> I was around three or four generations ago [...]
You're over a hundred years old? I hope that the relevant president
sent you a telegram.
> Does anyone pronounce "Seward" or "sewage" with the [ju]
> ("yoo") sound? They're not shown as alternatives in
> _W3NID_.
I could answer "yes", but I guess the question was intended for the
other side of the pond.
Andrew Gwilliam
> Evanston, Illinois is known for being the home of Northwestern
> University and for being a "dry" town. Not too many "dry" towns in
> the north.
Do they actually achieve anything by that? Apart from improving their
neighbours' tax receipts, of course.
Tony Cooper
<bottoml...@southernskies.co.uk> wrote:
>Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> Evanston, Illinois is known for being the home of Northwestern
>> University and for being a "dry" town. Not too many "dry" towns in
>> the north.
>
>Do they actually achieve anything by that? Apart from improving their
>neighbours' tax receipts, of course.
I don't know what you might mean by "achieve" in this context, but it
certainly was the quietest college town I've ever lived in. No noisy
bars filled with students. Evanston, though, is completely surrounded
by other towns without any break. Buying a drink is just a matter of
going down the street a little bit further.
The town, and the university, was founded by staunch Methodists. Part
of the reason that Evanston stayed dry is that Northwestern
University's charter requires that no liquor be sold within four miles
of the university. That eight mile diameter covers quite a bit of the
city. The Women's Christian Temperance Union is headquartered in
Evanston.
Evanston is no longer completely "dry", and hasn't been since the 70s.
The city has eased up on the "dry" laws little by little. I haven't
lived there since the early 70s, so I don't really know how much
change there has been.
Perhaps Evanston now is just known for Northwestern and being the
place Tinkertoys were invented. There are no historical markers
indicating that I once lived there, although - if you look carefully -
in a certain park on Hinman Street you might see a small dent on a
swing-set seat caused by my forehead. My daughter tumbled off the
swing, and I was watching her and not the swing.
Andrew Gwilliam
> I don't know what you might mean by "achieve" in this context [...]
You achieved the appropriate understanding with your response. Licquor
laws are always a source of bemusement (and not just transpondially).
Jon Miller
news:2pc9b3F...@uni-berlin.de...
> Jon Miller wrote:
> > And Northwestern University is in Evansville
>
> Oy!
God only knows why I wrote that. I debated against people from there when I
was in high school (Evanston and New Trier and Winnetka and thereabouts,
that is, not Evansville). Somewhat successfully I might brag, but let's
face it, when you want to win a debate in court, you hire a successful big
city lawyer, not a country lawyer. Watergate hearings and Honest Abe
Lincoln notwithstanding. Somewhat successfully really depends on the
expectations going in.
I guess it just goes to show, you can't believe everything you read on
usenet. It's sort of like the internet that way.
Jon Miller
Areff
> Evanston is no longer completely "dry", and hasn't been since the 70s.
> The city has eased up on the "dry" laws little by little. I haven't
> lived there since the early 70s, so I don't really know how much
> change there has been.
I spent a day there in 1990, and it was still quite dry then -- the first
time I'd ever knowingly been in a dry community, so it was remarkable to
me.
--
Sara Lorimer
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> > That may be. In some cases, the person may simply have never said the
> > word aloud before. I met a woman once who pronounced "penis" as
> > /'pEnIs/; she had never said it aloud or heard it pronounced correctly
> > before.
>
> And the episode of Seinfeld in which all Jerry could remember of his
> girlfriend's name was that it rhymed with a part of a woman's body
> doesn't work in BrE.
Nor in AmE, as far as I've experienced it.
--
SML
Mxsmanic
> The town, and the university, was founded by staunch Methodists. Part
> of the reason that Evanston stayed dry is that Northwestern
> University's charter requires that no liquor be sold within four miles
> of the university.
And how does the university enforce that upon its neighbors?
Donna Richoux
> Tony Cooper writes:
>
> > The town, and the university, was founded by staunch Methodists. Part
> > of the reason that Evanston stayed dry is that Northwestern
> > University's charter requires that no liquor be sold within four miles
> > of the university.
>
> And how does the university enforce that upon its neighbors?
Searching on the key words turns up this:
http://www.nu150.northwestern.edu/news/stories/11_12_00_alcohol.html
In 1855, the year students first enrolled at the new
institution, Northwestern's trustees asked the
Illinois General Assembly to amend the charter to
prohibit the manufacture or sale of "spirituous,
vinous or fermented liquors within four miles of the
location of said University."
The amendment called for a $25 fine for violations,
to be collected by a Justice of the Peace.
...The amendment provided that the act banning sales
of alcohol "may be repealed by the general assembly
whenever they think proper."...
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Bob Cunningham
<bottoml...@southernskies.co.uk> said:
> Bob Cunningham wrote:
> > I was around three or four generations ago [...]
> You're over a hundred years old? I hope that the relevant president
> sent you a telegram.
Not quite a hundred, but I was here when my grandparents
were still living (I was ten when they died), and I have a
great-granddaughter, so altogether I've known six
generations: grandparents, father, siblings, son, his
daughter, her daughter.
Come to think of it, make that seven generations: My
mother's grandmother was still alive when I was ten or so.
But if you want to equate a generation with 25 years, then
keep in mind that "three or four" can be three or it can be
four. Using three makes 75 years, and I was around seven
years more than that ago.
> > Does anyone pronounce "Seward" or "sewage" with the [ju]
> > ("yoo") sound? They're not shown as alternatives in
> > _W3NID_.
> I could answer "yes", but I guess the question was
> intended for the other side of the pond.
Not really. I said "anyone". Thank you for your response.
I see now that -- sure enough -- _The New Shorter Oxford_
has the two pronunciations as presumably equally acceptable
alternatives ( sewage /"su:IdZ, "sju:-/ ).
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Tony Cooper writes:
>
>> The town, and the university, was founded by staunch Methodists. Part
>> of the reason that Evanston stayed dry is that Northwestern
>> University's charter requires that no liquor be sold within four miles
>> of the university.
>
>And how does the university enforce that upon its neighbors?
A university, especially one of Northwestern's size, has a great deal
of clout. Any changes in a city's laws must be enacted by the
politicians in office. Voters can't vote on changes that are not
proposed. Politicians don't tend to buck the city's largest
businesses and the community's most influential citizens.
The citizens of Evanston have never been particularly interested in
changing the laws. They don't have to go far to buy package goods or
visit a bar. To go to dinner where liquor is served requires no
longer a trip than would be required in a non-dry city unless you
happen to live right next door to a good restaurant.
The people that are interested are businesses like Osco's (a
drugstore/grocery) that are chain operations and don't have any
particular ties to the area. Some people would like to see the tax
income, but Evanston is not a city that is hurting for revenue.
If you want to open a pizzeria that serves that wonderful, authentic,
Chicago pizza, and feel that offering beer is important to the success
of the business, then open it a few blocks away out of the Evanston
city limits. No biggie.
Elsewhere in this thread, someone is claiming to have stayed in
Evanston in 1990 when it was dry. He is as observant in this as he is
in other areas. The Holiday Inn started serving liquor with meals in
the 1970s, In the 80s, the laws were changed again and two package
stores were allowed in Evanston. Some restaurants serve liquor with
meals. Last I heard, some of the grocery/drug stores were trying to
get liquor licenses.
What Evanston doesn't seem to have - at least when I was last there -
is the conventional free-standing bar or tavern.
John Dawkins
Tony Cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> The town, and the university, was founded by staunch Methodists. Part
> of the reason that Evanston stayed dry is that Northwestern
> University's charter requires that no liquor be sold within four miles
> of the university. That eight mile diameter covers quite a bit of the
> city. The Women's Christian Temperance Union is headquartered in
> Evanston.
This apparently doesn' cover beer, as I've had more than a few at hotels
within walking distance of the campus (in the mid to late '80s).
--
J.
don groves
@comcast.net wrote...
>
> Midwest = Ohio to Iowa and Illinois to Minnesota. Pretty much east and
> north of the middle. And Northwestern University is in Evansville, just
> north of Chicago. Go figure.
>
> And the University of Michigan is (are for you Brits) "Champions of the
> West". (They say so in their fight song, so it must be true.) Now look at
> your map and you see how much larger the West is than the East.
>
> The problem is history. What started this all off is that when Thomas
> Jefferson signed the Northwest Territory Act, the Northwest Territory really
> was northwest of the rest of the United States. It's just that everything
> has shifted. Northwest became West became Midwest or Middle West is now
> really pretty much Middle East but no one calls it that.
The NCAA (US university athletics dictatorship, for those who are
familiar) ao one time divded the country into four regions: East,
Mid-East, Mid-West, and West for tournament purposes. So they, at
least, recognized the "middle easternness" of Michigan, Ohio, et.
When John Soule made his "Go West, young man ..." remark, he was
referring to Chicago and environs, I believe.
--
dg
Areff
> If you want to open a pizzeria that serves that wonderful, authentic,
> Chicago pizza,
Oy! Even Chicagoans don't pretend that the places that serve their
"pizza" are "pizzerias" (or do they?).
> and feel that offering beer is important to the success
> of the business, then open it a few blocks away out of the Evanston
> city limits. No biggie.
>
> Elsewhere in this thread, someone is claiming to have stayed in
> Evanston in 1990 when it was dry. He is as observant in this as he is
> in other areas. The Holiday Inn started serving liquor with meals in
> the 1970s, In the 80s, the laws were changed again and two package
> stores were allowed in Evanston. Some restaurants serve liquor with
> meals. Last I heard, some of the grocery/drug stores were trying to
> get liquor licenses.
Sounds to me like it's still fairly dry compared to your typical wet
place.
> What Evanston doesn't seem to have - at least when I was last there -
> is the conventional free-standing bar or tavern.
Now see how you are?
--
Martin Ambuhl
> If you want to open a pizzeria that serves that wonderful, authentic,
> Chicago pizza, and feel that offering beer is important to the success
> of the business, then open it a few blocks away out of the Evanston
> city limits. No biggie.
There's no need for moving across the city line. Many is the night
during the late 80s and early 90s that my fellow grad students and I got
sloshed either in the student center at Northwestern or in the bar just
north of the Orington Hotel.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
Read all of the posts for the time-line. The rules changed to allow
some places that served food to serve alcohol.
Steve Hayes
(Sara Lorimer) wrote:
>I just heard Scott Simon (obTWIAVBP: American radio host) say "puberty"
>as POOberty. I -- and that calm fellow at www.m-w.com -- would say
>PEWberty. Is the PEWberty pronunciation common and I've never noticed it
>before, or is this Scott Simon going off into his own world?
Daos he say Noo York and noocewlar as well?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Andrew Gwilliam
And not in my experience of AmE either. But m-w.com has an alternative
pronunciation for "clitoris" that rhymes with "Dolores"; make of that
what you will.
Andrew Gwilliam
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 22:16:50 +0100, Andrew Gwilliam
> <bottoml...@southernskies.co.uk> said:
>
>
>>Bob Cunningham wrote:
>
>
>
>>>I was around three or four generations ago [...]
>
>
>
>>You're over a hundred years old? I hope that the relevant president
>>sent you a telegram.
>
>
> Not quite a hundred, but I was here when my grandparents
> were still living (I was ten when they died), and I have a
> great-granddaughter, so altogether I've known six
> generations: grandparents, father, siblings, son, his
> daughter, her daughter.
>
> Come to think of it, make that seven generations: My
> mother's grandmother was still alive when I was ten or so.
>
> But if you want to equate a generation with 25 years, then
> keep in mind that "three or four" can be three or it can be
> four. Using three makes 75 years, and I was around seven
> years more than that ago.
Actually I was equating it with 30 years, which is quite odd now that I
think about it. I guess I picked up someone else's rule of thumb and
regurgitated it without bothering my brain cells on the way.
Is there a US equivalent of the UK tradition of the Queen sending a
telegram to those reaching their 100th?
>>>Does anyone pronounce "Seward" or "sewage" with the [ju]
>>>("yoo") sound? They're not shown as alternatives in
>>>_W3NID_.
>
>
>
>>I could answer "yes", but I guess the question was
>>intended for the other side of the pond.
>
>
> Not really. I said "anyone". Thank you for your response.
>
> I see now that -- sure enough -- _The New Shorter Oxford_
> has the two pronunciations as presumably equally acceptable
> alternatives ( sewage /"su:IdZ, "sju:-/ ).
Now see what you've done, you've made me realise that I used to
palatalize* the "s", but now I don't. An exception proving a rule, or
something.
In the many words where I do palatalize, however, what actually happens
with the pronunciation seems to vary quite a bit. For example, "fuel"
breaks down as [f]+[j]+[u:]+[l], whereas "tune" can be [tS]+[u:]+[n]
(although not if I'm thinking about what I'm saying). And I'm not so
sure that in "rebuke" I don't have a (rising) diphthong [Iu:]!
Everyone** pronounces "sugar" with an initial [S] though, right? My
guess would be that today's [U] was once also an [u:].
* I really can never make my mind up on that whole -ize/-ise thing.
** For the usual value of "everyone"
Mike Lyle
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 22:16:50 +0100, Andrew Gwilliam
> <bottoml...@southernskies.co.uk> said:
>
> > Bob Cunningham wrote:
> > > Does anyone pronounce "Seward" or "sewage" with the [ju]
> > > ("yoo") sound? They're not shown as alternatives in
> > > _W3NID_.
>
> > I could answer "yes", but I guess the question was
> > intended for the other side of the pond.
>
> Not really. I said "anyone". Thank you for your response.
>
> I see now that -- sure enough -- _The New Shorter Oxford_
> has the two pronunciations as presumably equally acceptable
> alternatives ( sewage /"su:IdZ, "sju:-/ ).
To me "Seward" sounds the same as "seaward". I always have [ju] in
"pursue" and "pursuit", and still tend to use [ju] in "suit" and "sue"
(not in "Sue", which has [u]), but I think it's fading in these two;
and I don't think I've ever used it in "sewage". Relatives still in
Aus go so far as to say "al[ju]minium", as did my father, but I don't.
Mike.
Ross Howard
wrought:
I think I'm a fairly typical middle-aged (aagh!) Brit inasmuch as I
have "soo and be damned", "a boy named Soo", "sooage works", a
"three-piece s[u:]t", and al[j@]minium.
(I have some inconsistency issues with [`'Isju:z] or ['IS(j)u:z],
probably depending on little more than whose use of the word happens
to be really annoying me at the time.)
--
Ross Howard
Mark Barratt
Andrew Gwilliam wrote:
<snip>
> In the many words where I do palatalize, however, what actually
happens
> with the pronunciation seems to vary quite a bit. For example,
"fuel"
> breaks down as [f]+[j]+[u:]+[l], whereas "tune" can be [tS]+[u:]+[n]
> (although not if I'm thinking about what I'm saying).
It seems to me that the actual distinction between "tune" and "chewn"
(if pronounced /tju:n/ and /tSu:n/) is negligible. Given the
articulators involved, I'd be quite surprised if anybody says them in a
distinguishable way.
> And I'm not so
> sure that in "rebuke" I don't have a (rising) diphthong [Iu:]!
Again, I can't really imagine that much difference between [ju:] and
[Iu:].
Perhaps it's my loss.
Regards,
Mark Barratt
Donna Richoux
> When John Soule made his "Go West, young man ..." remark, he was
> referring to Chicago and environs, I believe.
John Soule?... I had to look that up to see why. You're right in that
Horace Greeley wasn't the first to say it, according to the book _They
Never Said It_ (Boller 1989):
In an article for Indiana's _Terre Haute Express_ in
1851, John Babsone Soule (or Soulé) first gave this
advice, and Greeley who reprinted the article in his
_New York Tribune_ saw to it that Soule got full
credit. But nevertheless it didn't work out that
way; ever afterwards the statement was attributed to
Greeley.
The line was apparently "Go west, young man, and grow with the country."
But nobody seems to reprint the actual newspaper article, which would be
nice to see. No Proquest for 1851, eh, Ben?
The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations says that Greeley did put that line
into _Hints Toward Reform_ 1865. Though that book is usually credited as
1850, which would put it *before* Soule.
...Now I find, via ABE Books, that the first edition was 1850 and a
second, enlarged edition was 1855.
Anyway, it seems agreed that Greeley supported the sentiment and it was
a "favorite phrase" of his.
Now, about your speculation that the original use referred to Chicago --
no one says that Soule was specifically talking about, so I don't know.
Chicago was young in 1850, population 30,000, vs. a decade later when it
was 100,000. But it was hardly the open prairie.
Have you got any lead as to where you saw this?
--
Best - Donna Richoux
Areff
> don groves <no-...@nowhere.not> wrote:
>
>> When John Soule made his "Go West, young man ..." remark, he was
>> referring to Chicago and environs, I believe.
>
> John Soule?... I had to look that up to see why. You're right in that
> Horace Greeley wasn't the first to say it, according to the book _They
> Never Said It_ (Boller 1989):
>
> In an article for Indiana's _Terre Haute Express_ in
> 1851, John Babsone Soule (or Soulé) first gave this
> advice, and Greeley who reprinted the article in his
> _New York Tribune_ saw to it that Soule got full
> credit. But nevertheless it didn't work out that
> way; ever afterwards the statement was attributed to
> Greeley.
> a "favorite phrase" of his.
BTW, Horace Greeley was buried in Green-Wood (aka Greenwood) Cemetery in
Brooklyn (Fourth Largest City in America).
--
don groves
tr...@euronet.nl wrote...
Not that I can remember now, unfortunately. Having grown up in
the US west, I was surprised to learn eventually that "west"
hadn't always meant "west of the Rockies". What I do recall is
hearing the phrase in question with regard to Chicago of that
time being the "next New York", so that connection has stuck with
me since.
--
dg
Bob Cunningham
<bottoml...@southernskies.co.uk> said:
[...]
> Is there a US equivalent of the UK tradition of the
> Queen sending a telegram to those reaching their 100th?
Stick around and I'll let you know if I get a letter from
Presidentrix Hillary Clinton, who wil probably be serving
her second term then.
Hmmm ... I thought I was coining a word, but Google has
fourteen hits on "presidentrix" and Dejagoogle has nine.
Once the fad catches on, we will probably have two or three
presidentrices in the next thirty years.
Zero Google hits on "presidentrices", compared to 969 on
"aviatrices".
Andrew Gwilliam
I'm glad to say that "presidentrixes" also googled nowt.
However, I see that "presidentress" appears to have its adherents.
<shudder>
Carmen L. Abruzzi
Both "presidentrix" and "presidentress" are illogically
formed. They imply that the masculine form is "presidenter"
or "presidentor".
Mike Lyle
> Jon Miller writes:
>
> > Not off in outer space, but in a decided minority. I haven't noticed any
> > regionalism or ethnic background to it either. I do wonder if there isn't
> > just a hint of discomfort with discussing sex ...
>
> That may be. In some cases, the person may simply have never said the
> word aloud before. I met a woman once who pronounced "penis" as
> /'pEnIs/; she had never said it aloud or heard it pronounced correctly
> before.
And in Britain a peenus is a tree. (Mem to Recording Angel: Pls n. Joke resisted.)
Mike.
Ben Zimmer
>
> don groves <no-...@nowhere.not> wrote:
>
> > When John Soule made his "Go West, young man ..." remark, he was
> > referring to Chicago and environs, I believe.
>
> John Soule?... I had to look that up to see why. You're right in that
> Horace Greeley wasn't the first to say it, according to the book _They
> Never Said It_ (Boller 1989):
>
> In an article for Indiana's _Terre Haute Express_ in
> 1851, John Babsone Soule (or Soulé) first gave this
> advice, and Greeley who reprinted the article in his
> _New York Tribune_ saw to it that Soule got full
> credit. But nevertheless it didn't work out that
> way; ever afterwards the statement was attributed to
> Greeley.
>
> The line was apparently "Go west, young man, and grow with the country."
> But nobody seems to reprint the actual newspaper article, which would be
> nice to see. No Proquest for 1851, eh, Ben?
Oh sure, it includes lots of material from then (from the American
Peridocals Series -- the Saturday Evening Post, the National Era, etc.)
-- they just haven't gotten around to scanning the Terre Haute Express!
Actualy, I see a 1926 Washington Post article that says that Soule's
editorial was reprinted in newspapers all over the country, including
the New York Tribune. Still can't find anything from the 1850s on
Proquest or Making of America.
> The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations says that Greeley did put that line
> into _Hints Toward Reform_ 1865. Though that book is usually credited as
> 1850, which would put it *before* Soule.
>
> ...Now I find, via ABE Books, that the first edition was 1850 and a
> second, enlarged edition was 1855.
>
> Anyway, it seems agreed that Greeley supported the sentiment and it was
> a "favorite phrase" of his.
I would guess that he added the saying to the revised edition. A 1938
Wall Street Journal column explains:
The expression, "Go West, young man, go West," was first
used by John L. B. Soule in an editorial in the Terre Haute
Express in 1851. Soule was editor of that paper and in his
editorial he stated that Horace Greeley could not give
better advice than this. It became a favorite saying of
Greeley, who used it in a letter to W. H. Verity in 1854
and again in "Hints Toward Reform" in the form "Go West,
young man, and grow up with the country."
Another article says that Greeley reprinted Soule's editorial, though it
doesn't say where.
Carmen L. Abruzzi
>
> Not that I can remember now, unfortunately. Having grown up in
> the US west, I was surprised to learn eventually that "west"
> hadn't always meant "west of the Rockies".
Didn't you ever see the Wizard of Oz? The "wizard" (after
being revealed as a very good man, just a very bad wizard);
the wizard, upon learning that Dorothy is from Kansas says
to her, "I'm an old Kansas man myself, born and bred in
heart of the western wilderness".
Andrew Gwilliam
My absent of comment on "presidentrix" didn't mean I liked it much
better than "presidentress"!
Donna Richoux
I just tried the Online Books Page - they actually have a version of:
Title: Hints toward reforms, in lectures, addresses,
and other writings. By Horace Greeley ...
Publication date: 1854.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/b/bib/bibperm?q1=AFT8745
But I checked it carefully for any version of "Go west" and came up
empty-handed. Maybe Oxford was right that it has to be the 1865 edition.
Donna Richoux
> Ben Zimmer <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
[snip discussion of:]
> > >
> > > In an article for Indiana's _Terre Haute Express_ in
> > > 1851, John Babsone Soule (or Soulé) first gave this
> > > advice, and Greeley who reprinted the article in his
> > > _New York Tribune_ saw to it that Soule got full
> > > credit. But nevertheless it didn't work out that
> > > way; ever afterwards the statement was attributed to
> > > Greeley.
> > I would guess that he added the saying to the revised edition. A 1938
> > Wall Street Journal column explains:
> >
> > The expression, "Go West, young man, go West," was first
> > used by John L. B. Soule in an editorial in the Terre Haute
> > Express in 1851. Soule was editor of that paper and in his
> > editorial he stated that Horace Greeley could not give
> > better advice than this. It became a favorite saying of
> > Greeley, who used it in a letter to W. H. Verity in 1854
> > and again in "Hints Toward Reform" in the form "Go West,
> > young man, and grow up with the country."
"Grow up with", not "grow with"? Hmm, "grow up" is what Oxford says,
too. Oxford also says that what Soule said was the form much quoted, "Go
west, young man, go west."
> > Another article says that Greeley reprinted Soule's editorial, though it
> > doesn't say where.
>
I had some luck with Amazon's Search Inside the Book. Robert Reich
mentions, in a book called "The Future of Success," that the name of the
article in which Horace Greeley put this was "To Aspiring Young Men",
and that it was quoted in James Parton's biography of Greeley in 1855.
The other lines from the essay that Reich gives:
The best business you can get into you will find
on your father's farm or workshop... If you have no
farm or friends to aid you, and no prospect open to
you there, turn your face to the great West, and
there build a home and fortune."
So far, no particular geographical reference, which started this
discussion.
Bob Cunningham
<bottoml...@southernskies.co.uk> said:
[...]
> I'm glad to say that "presidentrixes" also googled nowt.
> However, I see that "presidentress" appears to have its adherents.
> <shudder>
How about "presidentette"? Like that any better?
Andrew Gwilliam
Oh, the agony!
Someone will now point out 14 common exceptions, but nouns in -ent are
inherently gender-neutral.
Carmen L. Abruzzi
Absent? Anyway, I didn't mean to imply that I thought you
found "presidentrix" any more acceptable.
If we're going to form "trix" or "tress" feminines, we must
make the masculine "presiditer" or "presiditor" and the
feminine "presiditrix" or "presiditress".
But that'll take a Constitutional Amendment.
Andrew Gwilliam
Thank the heavens!
A few years ago on the east side of the Pond, one of our politicians was
appointed as "Secretary of State for Trade and Industry". He insisted
on resurrecting the old title for the job, "President of the Board of
Trade". Unfortunately this didn't require a constitutional amendment.
Steve Hayes
<bottoml...@southernskies.co.uk> wrote:
>>>And the episode of Seinfeld in which all Jerry could remember of his
>>>girlfriend's name was that it rhymed with a part of a woman's body
>>>doesn't work in BrE.
>>
>>
>> Nor in AmE, as far as I've experienced it.
>
>And not in my experience of AmE either. But m-w.com has an alternative
>pronunciation for "clitoris" that rhymes with "Dolores"; make of that
>what you will.
Makes me wonder how dome people pronoucne Dolores.
don groves
haye...@hotmail.com wrote...
> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:57:01 +0100, Andrew Gwilliam
> <bottoml...@southernskies.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>>And the episode of Seinfeld in which all Jerry could remember of his
> >>>girlfriend's name was that it rhymed with a part of a woman's body
> >>>doesn't work in BrE.
> >>
> >>
> >> Nor in AmE, as far as I've experienced it.
> >
> >And not in my experience of AmE either. But m-w.com has an alternative
> >pronunciation for "clitoris" that rhymes with "Dolores"; make of that
> >what you will.
>
> Makes me wonder how dome people pronoucne Dolores.
Don't know about them but we westerners say duh-lore'-ess.
--
dg
Nell
wrote:
Here's a couple of parodies. I was searching specifically for John
Barrymore and a comment he made during his stay in San Francisco
during the 1906 earthquake and didn't find a reference of that.
Other than "Uncle John" there's no credit for the parodies and I doubt
if the parody was original with him. It's just a natural, like "Tell
me not in mournful numbers, The price you paid for two cucumbers."
http://www.rootsweb.com/~inncgs/MarthasDesk2.htm
From Wayne Township Records
<snip>
April 9, 1884
Uncle John Robison moved to Missouri last week. John said he would go
west and blow up with the country.
</snip>
http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/co/phillips/newspapers/stherald1890apr11.txt
STATE HERALD, Holyoke, Phillips, Colorado
William R. Davis, Editor & Publisher
11 Apr 1890, Friday, Vol. III - No. 32
<snip>
A new version - “Come west! and blow up with the country.”
</snip>
Nell
A synonym is a word you use when you can't spell the word you first thought of.
Jon Miller
news:41320846...@news.saix.net...
> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:57:01 +0100, Andrew Gwilliam
> <bottoml...@southernskies.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>>And the episode of Seinfeld in which all Jerry could remember of his
> >>>girlfriend's name was that it rhymed with a part of a woman's body
> >>>doesn't work in BrE.
> >>
> >>
> >> Nor in AmE, as far as I've experienced it.
> >
> >And not in my experience of AmE either. But m-w.com has an alternative
> >pronunciation for "clitoris" that rhymes with "Dolores"; make of that
> >what you will.
>
> Makes me wonder how dome people pronoucne Dolores.
Sadly.
Jon Miller
CyberCypher
> "Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>> Makes me wonder how dome people pronoucne Dolores.
>
> Sadly.
And most likely echogenically.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
Jon Miller
news:4130f4dd$0$6334$bed6...@news.gradwell.net...
> Jon Miller wrote:
>
> > And the University of Michigan is (are for you Brits) "Champions of the
> > West".
>
> I tried reading that without the paranthetical remark, and it is indeed
> ungrammatical in BrE. In this particular sentence, would it really be
> grammatical in AmE? Two nations, etc etc.
Of course. University. One. How else would you do it? (Of course, that
would make it "Champion of the West", wouldn't it?)
Jon Miller
Bob Cunningham
(Steve Hayes) said:
[...]
[about someone's suggestion that "clitoris" and "Dolores"
rhyme]
> Makes me wonder how dome people pronoucne Dolores.
That's an intriguing statement in two ways:
First, "dome people" sounds sorta spooky; makes me wonder
what dome or domes they inhabit, what sinister aim led them
to choose that habitat, and how one would go about
inhabiting a dome.
Second, I'm curious to know if "pronoucne" rhymes with
"acne".
Anyway, "Dolores" would rhyme well with "clitoris" if I
pronounced "clitoris" the way I mentally did for years
before I heard it pronounced for the first time
I long thought it was [klI 'tOr @s], which would be a really
good rhyme with [d@ 'lOr @s].
Sometime in the not too distant past I learned the correct
pronunciation is ['klIt @ r@s], which I can't imagine
rhyming with any believable pronunciation of "Dolores". I
probably wouldn't have remembered the correct pronunciation
of "clitoris" if it hadn't been for the slang "clit" that
I've heard a fair amount.
I'm still not sure how to pronounce "vagina". I look it up
once in a long while, but I sorta forget before the next
time I think about it. I mentally pronounced it ['v&dZ@n@]
the first time I looked at it, and I've tended to continue
to mentally pronounce it that way. I'm guessing the
accepted pronunciation is [v@'dZaIn@], but I'm probably
wrong.
Bob Cunningham
<no-...@nowhere.not> said:
[...]
[referring to the way "dome people" pronounce "Dolores"]
> Don't know about them but we westerners say duh-lore'-ess.
Assuming "uh" is the usual crutch to represent a schwa in ad
hoc pronunciation representation, even though it doesn't
come very close to what a schwa really sounds like, a lot of
us westerners say "duh lore' uhs" ([d@ 'lOr @s]).
Raymond S. Wise
> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 03:01:58 GMT, haye...@hotmail.com
> (Steve Hayes) said:
>
> [...]
>
> [about someone's suggestion that "clitoris" and "Dolores"
> rhyme]
That was Andrew Gwilliam, citing a pronunciation given in the online
dictionary at www.m-w.com .
>
>> Makes me wonder how dome people pronoucne Dolores.
>
> That's an intriguing statement in two ways:
>
> First, "dome people" sounds sorta spooky; makes me wonder
> what dome or domes they inhabit, what sinister aim led them
> to choose that habitat, and how one would go about
> inhabiting a dome.
>
> Second, I'm curious to know if "pronoucne" rhymes with
> "acne".
>
> Anyway, "Dolores" would rhyme well with "clitoris" if I
> pronounced "clitoris" the way I mentally did for years
> before I heard it pronounced for the first time
>
> I long thought it was [klI 'tOr @s], which would be a really
> good rhyme with [d@ 'lOr @s].
And /klI'tOr@s/ ("kli-'tor-&s" in its system of pronunciation) is precisely
what is given at www.m-w.com for a variant pronunciation of "clitoris."
>
> Sometime in the not too distant past I learned the correct
> pronunciation is ['klIt @ r@s], which I can't imagine
> rhyming with any believable pronunciation of "Dolores". I
> probably wouldn't have remembered the correct pronunciation
> of "clitoris" if it hadn't been for the slang "clit" that
> I've heard a fair amount.
>
> I'm still not sure how to pronounce "vagina". I look it up
> once in a long while, but I sorta forget before the next
> time I think about it. I mentally pronounced it ['v&dZ@n@]
> the first time I looked at it, and I've tended to continue
> to mentally pronounce it that way. I'm guessing the
> accepted pronunciation is [v@'dZaIn@], but I'm probably
> wrong.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
R J Valentine
don groves
exw...@earthlink.net wrote...
OK, so a schwa is that 'uh' sound we're so good at. I'm learning,
slowly.
--
dg
Richard Maurer
I had some luck with Amazon's Search Inside the Book. Robert Reich
mentions, in a book called "The Future of Success,"
that the name of the article in which Horace Greeley put this was
"To Aspiring Young Men", and that it was quoted in James Parton's
biography of Greeley in 1855.
The other lines from the essay that Reich gives:
The best business you can get into you will find
on your father's farm or workshop... If you have no
farm or friends to aid you, and no prospect open to
you there, turn your face to the great West, and
there build a home and fortune."
Another site mentions an 1841 Greeley article with the same theme:
Do not lounge in the cities! There is room and health
in the country, away from the crowds of idlers and imbeciles.
Go west, before you are fitted for no life but that
of the factory. (New York Tribune, 1841)
http://equinox.unr.edu/homepage/fenimore/greeley.html
Judging from the page, the author read the actual articles.
It is certainly possible that Greeley inspired Soule and
that is why Soule sent his article to Greeley's publication.
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer
Now, about your speculation that the original use referred
to Chicago -- no one says that Soule was specifically
talking about, so I don't know. Chicago was young in 1850,
population 30,000, vs. a decade later when it was 100,000.
But it was hardly the open prairie.
Yipes, rampant growth! According to the Chicago Public Library:
On August 12, 1833, the Town of Chicago was incorporated
with a population of 350.
Then in 1860 they hold a political convention that nominates
the president to be.
Andrew Gwilliam
And the University of Michigan is "Champions of the West"? Well, I have
alot to learn.
CyberCypher
[...]
> And the University of Michigan is "Champions of the West"? Well,
> I have alot to learn.
^^^^
Say it isn't so.
Andrew Gwilliam
> Andrew Gwilliam wrote on 30 Aug 2004:
>
> [...]
>
>>And the University of Michigan is "Champions of the West"? Well,
>>I have alot to learn.
>
> ^^^^
>
> Say it isn't so.
Hook, line, and sinker!
J. W. Love
Thomas Fuller. 2004. "'Go West, young man!'--An Elusive Slogan," _Indiana
Magazine of History_ 100 (September):231-242.
The author emails me that the "Soule theory = Bunkum. Patton doesn't contain
the phrase and gives no citation."
Donna Richoux
> For a current restudy of the go-west phrase, see:
>
> Thomas Fuller. 2004. "'Go West, young man!'--An Elusive Slogan," _Indiana
> Magazine of History_ 100 (September):231-242.
Sounds perfect. Trouble is, neither my local library nor local magazine
stand is going to have it.
>
> The author emails me that the "Soule theory = Bunkum. Patton doesn't contain
> the phrase and gives no citation."
Parton, I'm sure you mean -- the 1855 biography of Greeley.
So Fuller concludes there never was any Soule essay? Wild. That would
explain the fact that no one seems to have saved it and reprinted it.
Maybe there was never a John Babsone Soule in Indiana at all...
J. W. Love
>So Fuller concludes there never was any Soule essay?
>Wild. That would explain the fact that no one seems to
>have saved it and reprinted it.
John Babson [sic] Lane [sic] Soule [sic] (1815-1891).
Yes, I think that's what he concludes. I've emailed him to ask if I may post
his other conclusions.
J. W. Love
>Yes, I think that's what he concludes. I've emailed him to
>ask if I may post his other conclusions.
It's suggested that we wait until after the publication date, which should be
within days, not even weeks, he says. Some of his other conclusions will prove
relevant to what's been offered in this thread.
Ray Heindl
> Here's a couple of parodies. I was searching specifically for
> John Barrymore and a comment he made during his stay in San
> Francisco during the 1906 earthquake and didn't find a reference
> of that.
>
> Other than "Uncle John" there's no credit for the parodies and I
> doubt if the parody was original with him. It's just a natural,
> like "Tell me not in mournful numbers, The price you paid for two
> cucumbers."
Another reference, from Project Gutenberg's Punchinello Vol. 1, No. 21,
August 20, 1870, in a chapter from "The MYSTERY OF MR. E. DROOD. AN
ADAPTATION. BY ORPHEUS C. KERR.":
"As for you, an American boy, why don't you go to h— I mean to the
West. Go West, young man! Buy a good, stout farming outfit, two or
three serviceable horses, or mules, a portable house made in sections,
a few cattle, a case of fever medicine—and then go out to the far West
upon Government-land. You'd better go to one of the hotels for to-
night, and then purchase Mr. GREELEY'S 'What I Know About Farming,' and
start as soon as the snow permits in the morning."
Project Gutenberg now has a full-text search feature, which is new
since I last looked.
--
Ray Heindl
(remove the Xs to reply to: rahe...@xnccwx.net)
J. W. Love
>Vol. 1, No. 21, August 20, 1870, in a chapter from "The
>MYSTERY OF MR. E. DROOD. AN ADAPTATION. BY
>ORPHEUS C. KERR.":
Thomas Fuller discovered that reference years ago. See his forthcoming article.
Mike Lyle
> CyberCypher wrote:
>
> > Andrew Gwilliam wrote on 30 Aug 2004:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >>And the University of Michigan is "Champions of the West"? Well,
> >>I have alot to learn.
> >
> > ^^^^
> >
> > Say it isn't so.
>
> Hook, line, and sinker!
Lock, stock, and barrel!
Horse, foot, and guns!
Boot, saddle, and spur, perhaps?
Are there other triads of this nature? (I discount "Freeman, Hardy,
Willis", and "Crosby, Stills, and Nash", etc.)
Can you believe that I once saw a straight-faced newspaper explanation
that my first-mentioned contribution originally referred to a
soup-base which had been stored in a coopered container having a lid
secured against unauthorized access with a padlock, but which had
nonetheless been half-inched by the simple expedient of trundling off
with the tout ensemble? I swear by all known and unknown Holy Books
that I did. In periods of professional self-doubt, I have been known
to wake weeping in the night that I hadn't thought of it myself and
flogged the discovery to the Guardian, perhaps with a convincing early
wood-cut.
Mike.
Laura F Spira
> Andrew Gwilliam <bottoml...@southernskies.co.uk> wrote in message news:<41333bc9$0$6329$bed6...@news.gradwell.net>...
>
>>CyberCypher wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Andrew Gwilliam wrote on 30 Aug 2004:
>>>
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>
>>>>And the University of Michigan is "Champions of the West"? Well,
>>>>I have alot to learn.
>>>
>>> ^^^^
>>>
>>>Say it isn't so.
>>
>>Hook, line, and sinker!
>
>
> Lock, stock, and barrel!
>
> Horse, foot, and guns!
>
> Boot, saddle, and spur, perhaps?
>
> Are there other triads of this nature? (I discount "Freeman, Hardy,
> Willis", and "Crosby, Stills, and Nash", etc.)
And presumably "Wilson, Keppel and Betty" and "Pip, Squeak and Wilfred"?
(NB: I am not that old - I heard my parents speak of these...)
"Emerson, Lake and Palmer"? I do remember them.
Knife, fork and spoon?
Fair, fat and forty? (Characteristics of women suffering from
gallstones, according to my GP, which was reassuring at the time.)
>
> Can you believe that I once saw a straight-faced newspaper explanation
> that my first-mentioned contribution originally referred to a
> soup-base which had been stored in a coopered container having a lid
> secured against unauthorized access with a padlock, but which had
> nonetheless been half-inched by the simple expedient of trundling off
> with the tout ensemble? I swear by all known and unknown Holy Books
> that I did. In periods of professional self-doubt, I have been known
> to wake weeping in the night that I hadn't thought of it myself and
> flogged the discovery to the Guardian, perhaps with a convincing early
> wood-cut.
>
Sounds very much like Muir and Norden. (We did some good ones on " A
rose-red city, half as old as time" some years ago, IIRC.)
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
John Dawkins
Laura F Spira <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
> Mike Lyle wrote:
> > Andrew Gwilliam <bottoml...@southernskies.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:<41333bc9$0$6329$bed6...@news.gradwell.net>...
> >
> >>CyberCypher wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Andrew Gwilliam wrote on 30 Aug 2004:
> >>>
> >>>[...]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>And the University of Michigan is "Champions of the West"? Well,
> >>>>I have alot to learn.
> >>>
> >>> ^^^^
> >>>
> >>>Say it isn't so.
> >>
> >>Hook, line, and sinker!
> >
> >
> > Lock, stock, and barrel!
> >
> > Horse, foot, and guns!
> >
> > Boot, saddle, and spur, perhaps?
> >
> > Are there other triads of this nature? (I discount "Freeman, Hardy,
> > Willis", and "Crosby, Stills, and Nash", etc.)
>
> And presumably "Wilson, Keppel and Betty" and "Pip, Squeak and Wilfred"?
As well as "Moe, Larry, Curly" and "Hardy, Littlewood, Polya".
--
J.
Matti Lamprhey
> Mike Lyle wrote:
> >
> > Are there other triads of this nature? (I discount "Freeman, Hardy,
> > Willis", and "Crosby, Stills, and Nash", etc.)
>
> And presumably "Wilson, Keppel and Betty" and "Pip, Squeak and
> Wilfred"?
>
> (NB: I am not that old - I heard my parents speak of these...)
>
> "Emerson, Lake and Palmer"? I do remember them.
>
> Knife, fork and spoon?
>
> Fair, fat and forty? (Characteristics of women suffering from
> gallstones, according to my GP, which was reassuring at the time.)
I'm quite young enough to recall Rag, Tag and Bobtail...
Matti
Wood Avens
<matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>"Laura F Spira" <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote...
>> "Emerson, Lake and Palmer"? I do remember them.
>>
>> Knife, fork and spoon?
>>
>> Fair, fat and forty? (Characteristics of women suffering from
>> gallstones, according to my GP, which was reassuring at the time.)
>
>I'm quite young enough to recall Rag, Tag and Bobtail...
Rods, poles and perches?
Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch?
Fish, flesh or fowl?
Red, white and blue?
Up, down and sideways?
(Noting absence of Oxford commas.)
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
R H Draney
>
>Mike Lyle wrote:
>>Andrew Gwilliam <bottoml...@southernskies.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:<41333bc9$0$6329$bed6...@news.gradwell.net>...
>>
>>>
>>
>> Lock, stock, and barrel!
>>
>> Horse, foot, and guns!
>>
>> Boot, saddle, and spur, perhaps?
>>
>> Are there other triads of this nature? (I discount "Freeman, Hardy,
>> Willis", and "Crosby, Stills, and Nash", etc.)
>
>And presumably "Wilson, Keppel and Betty" and "Pip, Squeak and Wilfred"?
>
>(NB: I am not that old - I heard my parents speak of these...)
>
>"Emerson, Lake and Palmer"? I do remember them.
>
>Knife, fork and spoon?
>
>Fair, fat and forty? (Characteristics of women suffering from
>gallstones, according to my GP, which was reassuring at the time.)
Bell, book and candle....
Thesis, antithesis, synthesis?...
I sensed above a disdain for proper names, but in case I misunderstood:
Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego (along with their business associates Gaspar,
Melchior and Balthazar)....
And to tie it elsethread: Bradley, Voorhees and Day....r
Andrew Gwilliam
> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:03:06 +0100, "Matti Lamprhey"
> <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>
>
>>"Laura F Spira" <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote...
>
>
>>>"Emerson, Lake and Palmer"? I do remember them.
>>>
>>>Knife, fork and spoon?
>>>
>>>Fair, fat and forty? (Characteristics of women suffering from
>>>gallstones, according to my GP, which was reassuring at the time.)
>>
>>I'm quite young enough to recall Rag, Tag and Bobtail...
>
>
> Rods, poles and perches?
>
> Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch?
>
> Fish, flesh or fowl?
>
> Red, white and blue?
>
> Up, down and sideways?
>
> (Noting absence of Oxford commas.)
Cuthbert, Dibble, and Grub[b]?
[I gotta have me Oxford commers.]
Tony Cooper
<wood...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:03:06 +0100, "Matti Lamprhey"
><matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>
>>"Laura F Spira" <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote...
>
>>> "Emerson, Lake and Palmer"? I do remember them.
>>>
>>> Knife, fork and spoon?
>>>
>>> Fair, fat and forty? (Characteristics of women suffering from
>>> gallstones, according to my GP, which was reassuring at the time.)
>>
>>I'm quite young enough to recall Rag, Tag and Bobtail...
>
>Rods, poles and perches?
>
>Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch?
>
>Fish, flesh or fowl?
This, in my family, was "fish, fowl, or good red herring". I have no
idea why.
Joe Mason
>>>>"Emerson, Lake and Palmer"? I do remember them.
>>>>
>>>>Knife, fork and spoon?
>>>>
>>>>Fair, fat and forty? (Characteristics of women suffering from
>>>>gallstones, according to my GP, which was reassuring at the time.)
>>>
>>>I'm quite young enough to recall Rag, Tag and Bobtail...
>>
>>
>> Rods, poles and perches?
>>
>> Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch?
>>
>> Fish, flesh or fowl?
>>
>> Red, white and blue?
>>
>> Up, down and sideways?
>>
>> (Noting absence of Oxford commas.)
>
> Cuthbert, Dibble, and Grub[b]?
Winken, Blinken and Nod?
Joe
Andrew Gwilliam
"It's time for bed", said Zebedee. Boing!
rzed
news:slrncj7ci...@arch.notcharles.ca:
Lead, follow or absquatulate?
--
rzed
R H Draney
The right way, the wrong way, and the Army way....
That one seems to require the Oxford comma, innit?...r
don groves
la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk wrote...
> Mike Lyle wrote:
> > Andrew Gwilliam <bottoml...@southernskies.co.uk> wrote in message news:<41333bc9$0$6329$bed6...@news.gradwell.net>...
> >
> >>CyberCypher wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Andrew Gwilliam wrote on 30 Aug 2004:
> >>>
> >>>[...]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>And the University of Michigan is "Champions of the West"? Well,
> >>>>I have alot to learn.
> >>>
> >>> ^^^^
> >>>
> >>>Say it isn't so.
> >>
> >>Hook, line, and sinker!
> >
> >
> > Lock, stock, and barrel!
> >
> > Horse, foot, and guns!
> >
> > Boot, saddle, and spur, perhaps?
> >
> > Are there other triads of this nature? (I discount "Freeman, Hardy,
> > Willis", and "Crosby, Stills, and Nash", etc.)
>
> And presumably "Wilson, Keppel and Betty" and "Pip, Squeak and Wilfred"?
>
> (NB: I am not that old - I heard my parents speak of these...)
>
> "Emerson, Lake and Palmer"? I do remember them.
>
> Knife, fork and spoon?
>
> Fair, fat and forty? (Characteristics of women suffering from
> gallstones, according to my GP, which was reassuring at the time.)
Free, white, and twenty-one?
(not so early feminist Americana)
--
dg
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>Andrew Gwilliam wrote on 30 Aug 2004:
>
>[...]
>> And the University of Michigan is "Champions of the West"? Well,
>> I have alot to learn.
> ^^^^
>
>Say it isn't so.
Alittle goes along way.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Laura F Spira
> Wood Avens wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:03:06 +0100, "Matti Lamprhey"
>> <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> "Laura F Spira" <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote...
>>
>>
>>
>>>> "Emerson, Lake and Palmer"? I do remember them.
>>>>
>>>> Knife, fork and spoon?
>>>>
>>>> Fair, fat and forty? (Characteristics of women suffering from
>>>> gallstones, according to my GP, which was reassuring at the time.)
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm quite young enough to recall Rag, Tag and Bobtail...
>>
>>
>>
>> Rods, poles and perches?
>>
>> Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch?
>>
>> Fish, flesh or fowl?
>>
>> Red, white and blue?
>>
>> Up, down and sideways?
>>
>> (Noting absence of Oxford commas.)
>
>
> Cuthbert, Dibble, and Grub[b]?
>
Cheat! You've left out Hugh, Pugh and Barney McGrew...
[..]
Laura F Spira
> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:30:53 +0100, Wood Avens
> <wood...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:03:06 +0100, "Matti Lamprhey"
>> <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> "Laura F Spira" <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote...
>>
>>>> "Emerson, Lake and Palmer"? I do remember them.
>>>>
>>>> Knife, fork and spoon?
>>>>
>>>> Fair, fat and forty? (Characteristics of women suffering from
>>>> gallstones, according to my GP, which was reassuring at the
>>>> time.)
>>>
>>> I'm quite young enough to recall Rag, Tag and Bobtail...
>>
>> Rods, poles and perches?
>>
>> Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch?
>>
>> Fish, flesh or fowl?
>
>
> This, in my family, was "fish, fowl, or good red herring". I have no
> idea why.
>
That's the way I've always heard it, too. Not very common, according to
google. Brewer's offers:
It is neither fish, flesh, nor fowl; or Neither fish, flesh, nor good
red herring. Not fish (food for the monk), not flesh (food for the
people generally), nor yet red herring (food for paupers). Suitable
to no class of people; fit for neither one thing nor another.
I am intrigued by the red herring which is apparently not categorised as
fish since it has been dried and smoked. A kipper?
R H Draney
Tall, dark and handsome (a source of some confusion for my first Japanese
teacher)....r
Matti Lamprhey
>
> The right way, the wrong way, and the Army way....
>
> That one seems to require the Oxford comma, innit?...r
I agree; and this reminds us how wrong it is to use the thing as a kind
of default.
Matti