Furtle
John Dunlop
a receptacle". I've heard it in Scotland, even on BBC Radio Scotland, used
as a verb and a noun. The only written record I've found is Iain M. Banks'
novel _Matter_ (p. 133):
"Though with any luck there'll be a map in here. Let me just have a
quick furtle." He dug his hand elbow-deep into the bag.
I mentioned it to the OED, who now have it on their to-do list, but their
cursory search didn't yield any more evidence. No dictionary I've checked,
including DSL, has any record of it, and Google reveals some discussions,
but nothing definitive.
The OED did point out a possible connection to the word "firtle" (also
spelt <fertle> and <furtle>), defined in Joseph Wright's English Dialect
Dictionary as "to trifle, dawdle, to appear busy and do little; to fidget,
move about distractedly".
http://www.archive.org/details/englishdialectdi02wrig
I wonder if anyone here knows anything about this word.
--
John
Pablo
> Does anyone know the word "furtle"? It means something like "to rummage in
> a receptacle". I've heard it in Scotland, even on BBC Radio Scotland, used
> as a verb and a noun. The only written record I've found is Iain M. Banks'
> novel _Matter_ (p. 133):
>
> "Though with any luck there'll be a map in here. Let me just have a
> quick furtle." He dug his hand elbow-deep into the bag.
How can a hand be elbow deep?
--
Pablo
Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't see any problem. It seems quite an ordinary phrase, meaning "up
to the elbow". I think I've probably met it in the context of vets
examining cows.
Would you object to "knee-deep in the water", which I've heard (and
probably used) many times in my life?
--
athel
Dr Peter Young
> http://www.archive.org/details/englishdialectdi02wrig
Urban dictionary has this, under the first definition:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=furtle
and also "furkle", which is the word I would usually use for this:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=furkle
I've known these both from way back last century. I think they sound a
touch Scottish.
Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
annily
> On 2010-11-06 12:22:59 +0100, Pablo <no...@nowhere.net> said:
>
>> John Dunlop escribió:
>>
>>> Does anyone know the word "furtle"? It means something like "to
>>> rummage in
>>> a receptacle". I've heard it in Scotland, even on BBC Radio Scotland,
>>> used
>>> as a verb and a noun. The only written record I've found is Iain M.
>>> Banks'
>>> novel _Matter_ (p. 133):
>>>
>>> "Though with any luck there'll be a map in here. Let me just have a
>>> quick furtle." He dug his hand elbow-deep into the bag.
>>
>> How can a hand be elbow deep?
>
> I don't see any problem.
I do. Surely it's his arm that's elbow deep?
> It seems quite an ordinary phrase, meaning "up
> to the elbow". I think I've probably met it in the context of vets
> examining cows.
>
I've never come across it before.
> Would you object to "knee-deep in the water", which I've heard (and
> probably used) many times in my life?
>
>
No, that's different, since it doesn't say the foot is "knee-deep" which
would be the equivalent of the hand being elbow deep.
--
Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
which probably influences my opinions.
Donna Richoux
Nothing under any spelling in the Dictionary of the Scots Language.
Google Books has 1700 hits, some of which are scanning errors for
"turtle"... some are proper names or pure nonsense. The first one that
makes much sense as a word is:
A history of Bradfield College [Berkshire,UK]
Arthur Francis Leach - 1900 - 253 pages
... While exams are going on, ' furtle ' takes the place of this
amusement. It is a game played with a cut down cricket-bat, about three
inches wide, of generally five or six a side. The rules are : that lobs
must be bowled till the batsman has made twenty, after which breaks are
allowed. ...
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
CDB
GoogleBooks. A "history of the woolen industry in the top of the
Shenandoah Valley" has "The Mountain Falls section was earlier known
to the locals as Dumb Furtle (or possibly Dumb Fuddle) ...";
>>
http://preview.tinyurl.com/29zst4r ;
>>
and a "merry romp through the language of love and sex" has "Furtle:
the act of inserting fingers into cutout areas of pornographic
photos."
>>
http://preview.tinyurl.com/26oybho
>>
Together with Wright's definition, the confusion between "Furtle" and
"Fuddle" in the first passage and the semantic connection in the
second passage with "fiddle" (think Uncle Ernie) make me wonder if
there isn't an etymological connection too. If someone with OED
access could check "fiddle", there is a small chance that the guess
could be confirmed (although I wouldn't take the absence of such an
entry as definitive disproof).
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On 06-11-10 22:13, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2010-11-06 12:22:59 +0100, Pablo <no...@nowhere.net> said:
>>
>>> John Dunlop escribió:
>>>
>>>> Does anyone know the word "furtle"? It means something like "to
>>>> rummage in
>>>> a receptacle". I've heard it in Scotland, even on BBC Radio Scotland,
>>>> used
>>>> as a verb and a noun. The only written record I've found is Iain M.
>>>> Banks'
>>>> novel _Matter_ (p. 133):
>>>>
>>>> "Though with any luck there'll be a map in here. Let me just have a
>>>> quick furtle." He dug his hand elbow-deep into the bag.
>>>
>>> How can a hand be elbow deep?
>>
>> I don't see any problem.
>
> I do. Surely it's his arm that's elbow deep?
Well, we'll see what others think. In the case of a cow, it's the hand
that does the exploration; the rest of the arm is just a tool to get it
to the target. Focussing on the hand seems quite natural to me.
"He dug his arm elbow-deep into the bag" would be OK, but he would be
doing it in order to feel for something with his hand. Just sticking
his arm in wouldn't have much point.
>
>> It seems quite an ordinary phrase, meaning "up
>> to the elbow". I think I've probably met it in the context of vets
>> examining cows.
>>
>
> I've never come across it before.
>
>> Would you object to "knee-deep in the water", which I've heard (and
>> probably used) many times in my life?
>>
>>
>
> No, that's different, since it doesn't say the foot is "knee-deep"
> which would be the equivalent of the hand being elbow deep.
--
athel
Peter Brooks
>
>
> No, that's different, since it doesn't say the foot is "knee-deep" which
> would be the equivalent of the hand being elbow deep.
>
it's the foot, the sole, in fact, that's actually knee-deep, the rest
of the leg, including the knee, must be less than knee-deep. Unless,
of course, you're a double amputee at the knee, then dry land is knee-
deep in water.
the Omrud
Everyday slang for me, but I don't remember if it's from my Midlands
childhood or if I've picked it up in the North West.
--
David
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
I almost certainly met it in the North West (of England) although I
don't use it since I left that region.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
HVS
> Does anyone know the word "furtle"?
No, but I wonder if it's related at all to "frootle"?
My wife uses that to mean "feeling a wrapped present to try and guess what it
is"; she was born and raised in New Zealand, and I think it was a childhood
or family term.
(It may, of course, just be a portmanteau for a "feel and rootle".)
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
the Omrud
It's not the same meaning, but the dialect word "spoach", which I
learned from a Northern English child of Scottish parents has some
similarities:
Spoach: The act of looking through anothers belongings without their
permission or knowledge.
--
David
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
Interersting. I didn't know that one.
Irwell
> On 2010-11-06 13:31:04 +0100, annily <ann...@annily.invalid> said:
>
>> On 06-11-10 22:13, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2010-11-06 12:22:59 +0100, Pablo <no...@nowhere.net> said:
>>>
>>>> John Dunlop escribió:
>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know the word "furtle"? It means something like "to
>>>>> rummage in
>>>>> a receptacle". I've heard it in Scotland, even on BBC Radio Scotland,
>>>>> used
>>>>> as a verb and a noun. The only written record I've found is Iain M.
>>>>> Banks'
>>>>> novel _Matter_ (p. 133):
>>>>>
>>>>> "Though with any luck there'll be a map in here. Let me just have a
>>>>> quick furtle." He dug his hand elbow-deep into the bag.
>>>>
>>>> How can a hand be elbow deep?
>>>
>>> I don't see any problem.
>>
>> I do. Surely it's his arm that's elbow deep?
>
> Well, we'll see what others think. In the case of a cow, it's the hand
> that does the exploration; the rest of the arm is just a tool to get it
> to the target. Focussing on the hand seems quite natural to me.
>
> "He dug his arm elbow-deep into the bag" would be OK, but he would be
> doing it in order to feel for something with his hand. Just sticking
> his arm in wouldn't have much point.
See the gynaecologist's handbook.
musika
the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> typed:
Possibly Midlands as it's normal slang for me, too.
--
Ray
UK
Nick
It sounded familiar to me as well, in fact I might even have used it.
But it's somewhat onomatopoeic and read it here with the meaning.
I just asked my Scottish co-resident without any context and she denied
any knowledge of it.
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk
Ian Jackson
Duncanson (BrE)" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes
around' - sometimes with a hint of furtiveness, but not necessarily so.
--
Ian
Robert Bannister
I think the objection was to phrases like "his foot knee-deep in the
water". The X-deep should apply to the whole body or at least the whole
X (eg hand or leg). Doesn't bother me, but I can understand what he is
getting at.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
Sorry, but the foot/sole can't be knee-deep because it doesn't have a knee.
--
Rob Bannister
John Varela
In this usage, "elbow-deep" and "knee-deep" are measures of length.
"Elbow deep" equals a cubit; "knee deep" is somewhat more.
--
John Varela
Peter Brooks
> On Sat, 6 Nov 2010 14:12:33 UTC, Peter Brooks
>
annily
> On Nov 6, 2:01 pm, annily<ann...@annily.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>
>> No, that's different, since it doesn't say the foot is "knee-deep" which
>> would be the equivalent of the hand being elbow deep.
>>
> No, we wouldn't say it, but it's true. If the water is knee-deep, then
> it's the foot, the sole, in fact, that's actually knee-deep, the rest
> of the leg, including the knee, must be less than knee-deep.
Well, that depends how you define knee-deep, I suppose. I understand it
to mean being in a liquid which reaches to the knee, so it has to be the
leg (or a larger part of the body) since the knee is not part of the foot.
Peter Brooks
> On 07-11-10 00:42, Peter Brooks wrote:
>
> > On Nov 6, 2:01 pm, annily<ann...@annily.invalid> wrote:
>
> >> No, that's different, since it doesn't say the foot is "knee-deep" which
> >> would be the equivalent of the hand being elbow deep.
>
> > No, we wouldn't say it, but it's true. If the water is knee-deep, then
> > it's the foot, the sole, in fact, that's actually knee-deep, the rest
> > of the leg, including the knee, must be less than knee-deep.
>
> Well, that depends how you define knee-deep, I suppose. I understand it
> to mean being in a liquid which reaches to the knee, so it has to be the
> leg (or a larger part of the body) since the knee is not part of the foot.
>
grass, etc.; also of the ground submerged or covered by these. "
Of course, if you're dipping somebody into the liquid head first, knee-
deep is lot deeper.
Ian Jackson
<cf6f65eb-eb68-42ba...@g13g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> writes
It's only when the water gets to crotch level that you start to catch
your breath.
--
Ian
annily
Yes, but that's describing the immersion substance itself. The original
context in this thread was describing the thing immersed in the
substance. Both are valid interpretations.
annily
As evidenced by the second definition from the OED:
2. Sunk to the knee (in water, mud, etc.).
The foot cannot be sunk to the knee, since the knee is not part of the foot.
John Dunlop
> Does anyone know the word "furtle"?
Thank you everyone. So it's probably found in the North West of England
and maybe the Midlands, it has a variant form "furkle", it's recorded in
the Urban Dictionary, and it's found in Google Books in various senses,
related or not.
--
John
John Dunlop
> Together with Wright's definition, the confusion between "Furtle" and
> "Fuddle" in the first passage and the semantic connection in the
> second passage with "fiddle" (think Uncle Ernie) make me wonder if
> there isn't an etymological connection too. If someone with OED
> access could check "fiddle", there is a small chance that the guess
> could be confirmed (although I wouldn't take the absence of such an
> entry as definitive disproof).
I don't see anything in the OED to confirm an etymological connection,
but, as you say, that doesn't mean there isn't one.
--
John
John Holmes
And the water cannot be knee-deep if there's nobody there to stand in
it. Water has no knees of its own.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
>Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 6/11/10 10:12 PM, Peter Brooks wrote:
>>> On Nov 6, 2:01 pm, annily<ann...@annily.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, that's different, since it doesn't say the foot is "knee-deep"
>>>> which would be the equivalent of the hand being elbow deep.
>>>>
>>> No, we wouldn't say it, but it's true. If the water is knee-deep,
>>> then it's the foot, the sole, in fact, that's actually knee-deep,
>>> the rest of the leg, including the knee, must be less than
>>> knee-deep. Unless, of course, you're a double amputee at the knee,
>>> then dry land is knee- deep in water.
>>
>> Sorry, but the foot/sole can't be knee-deep because it doesn't have a
>> knee.
>
>And the water cannot be knee-deep if there's nobody there to stand in
>it.
The depth represented by "knee-deep" varies according to the individual
whose leg is being used for the measurement. If we assume an
international standard for "knee-deep" (the ISO Standard Measuring Leg?)
then water can be knee-deep even though there isn't an ISO SML standing
in it.
This would be the same as saying that water is, say, one fathom deep
even though there might not be a measuring device in it at the time of
speaking.
What does knee-deep mean anyway? Where is the surface of the water in
relation to the knee? Reaching the lowest part of the knee (wherever
that is)? Reaching the middle of the knee-cap? Reaching the top of the
knee (wherever that is)?
> Water has no knees of its own.
Water is anatomically lacking that way, although some seas have arms:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Arm+of+the+sea
Sea legs are/is something altogether different.
Peter Brooks
wrote:
>
>
> Water is anatomically lacking that way, although some seas have arms:http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Arm+of+the+sea
>
> Sea legs are/is something altogether different.
>
I think that you'll find that the position on the knee depends on the
type of liquid. I'd consider a wine barrel due to be delivered to me
to be less than knee-deep unless it covered the knee of my tallest
friend entirely. If I were wading into a chilly sea to win a bet
requiring me to wade out until knee deep, then the depth would have to
be measured from the bottom of the start of the knee - maybe even when
bent forward at the ankle.
In a neutral situation, the depth of knee deep would be set at the
centre of the patella. Survivors of meetings with the IRA could be
used as knee deep measurers because of the handy mid-patella holes.
Skitt
> "John Holmes" wrote:
>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>> Peter Brooks wrote:
>>>> annily wrote:
This is getting to be knee-deep to a giraffe.
--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://come.to/skitt
Ian Jackson
writes
--
Ian
Robin Bignall
If you come across a grasshopper as big as a giraffe, running fast
won't help you. Let's hope they are truly vegetarian.
--
Robin Bignall
(BrE)
Herts, England
Robert Bannister
> In message<o4nfd695p11uh44sr...@4ax.com>
> Peter Duncanson (BrE)<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>> What does knee-deep mean anyway? Where is the surface of the water in
>> relation to the knee? Reaching the lowest part of the knee (wherever
>> that is)? Reaching the middle of the knee-cap? Reaching the top of the
>> knee (wherever that is)?
>
> SML.
>
SML? How did Sara Lorimer get into it?
--
Rob Bannister
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
A small prize of a virtual sheep is hereby awarded for your being the
first to make that comment.
(I have been waiting for nearly two days. I was beginning to give up
hope. :-) )
John Dunlop
> (I have been waiting for nearly two days. I was beginning to give up
> hope. :-) )
I like your precision. Thirty four seconds short of exactly two days
between your posts.
--
John
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>In message <kg0ld6dfn0ncbji99...@4ax.com>
> Peter Duncanson (BrE) <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 09:39:51 +0800, Robert Bannister
>> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>>>On 10/11/10 3:53 AM, Lewis wrote:
>>>> In message<o4nfd695p11uh44sr...@4ax.com>
>>>> Peter Duncanson (BrE)<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>>>> What does knee-deep mean anyway? Where is the surface of the water in
>>>>> relation to the knee? Reaching the lowest part of the knee (wherever
>>>>> that is)? Reaching the middle of the knee-cap? Reaching the top of the
>>>>> knee (wherever that is)?
>>>>
>>>> I would say that knee-deep is to the bottom of the patella on the ISO
>>>> SML.
>>>>
>>>
>>>SML? How did Sara Lorimer get into it?
>
>> A small prize of a virtual sheep is hereby awarded for your being the
>> first to make that comment.
>
>I have no idea who that is. I looked on wikipedia, and I still don't
>know.
>
>According to Google, Sarah Lorimer is on Facebook.
>
>There's five women with that name on IMDB.
>
>So I am still at sea.
Sara Lorimer is am AUE regular who currently posts infrequently.
Your "at sea" comment is startlingly appropriate because she wrote the
book _Booty: Girl Pirates on the High Seas_.
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/AUE_gallery/lorimer.html
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0811832376/booty-20/
R H Draney
>
>Sara Lorimer is am AUE regular who currently posts infrequently.
>
>Your "at sea" comment is startlingly appropriate because she wrote the
>book _Booty: Girl Pirates on the High Seas_.
Which reportedly once turned up on an invoice abbreviated to "BOOTY GIRL"....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
Peter Moylan
I can't help thinking of Radar and his fondness for grape knee-highs.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Peter Moylan
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
>
> John Dunlop wrote:
>> Peter Duncanson (BrE):
>>
>>> (I have been waiting for nearly two days. I was beginning
>>> to give up hope. :-) )
>>
>> I like your precision. Thirty four seconds short of exactly
>> two days between your posts.
>>
> Or, as Rey would say, thirty-four seconds.
>
--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
Ce qui n'est pas clair n'est pas franēais.
-- Antoine Rivaroli