Shallot (pronunciation)

[Guy Barry]

Given the recent discussion of the pronunciation of "harass", may I offer
"shallot" as an example of a word where the pattern of double and single
consonants suggests the wrong stress pattern? I once knew someone who'd
only seen it written down and pronounced it to rhyme with "ballot".

--
Guy Barry

[bert]

Doesn't that depend on whether it's where
the lady stays, or what the lady eats?
--

[Peter T. Daniels]

Or perhaps whether it's being said by a professional food service worker,
or not?

Just as laypersons seem to insist on saying "potshard" for what archeologists
call a "potsherd."

[Guy Barry]

"bert" wrote in message
news:3840dc44-40de-4df1...@googlegroups.com...

Are you talking about Tennyson's "Lady of Shalott"? Different spelling,
though same pronunciation.

--
Guy Barry

[Jerry Friedman]

On 7/29/14 2:24 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
> Given the recent discussion of the pronunciation of "harass", may I
> offer "shallot" as an example of a word where the pattern of double and
> single consonants suggests the wrong stress pattern?

...

Also "rattan", "chiffon", AmE "ballet", and BrE "appal". There are
probably more like that.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Guy Barry]

"Jerry Friedman" wrote in message news:lr87ui$iq9$1...@news.albasani.net...

"Chiffon" has first-syllable stress in BrE (as far as I know).

--
Guy Barry

[Katy Jennison]

So does "rattan", IME, although the stresses are not far off equal.

--
Katy Jennison

[John Dawkins]

In article <XSIBv.288350$Ea4.1...@fx21.am4>,

The suggestion turns out to match the way the word is commonly
pronounced by Leftpondians. And by Graham Kerr, if memory serves.
--
J.

[Guy Barry]

"John Dawkins" wrote in message
news:artfldodgr-04E4F...@news.individual.net...

Oh well there we go, and I thought I'd checked the American pronunciation
before posting. Merriam-Webster Online gives second-syllable stress first,
but first-syllable stress as an alternative.

--
Guy Barry

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 09:24:23 +0100, "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:

Surely the metre of the pome gives a cloo?




--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Guy Barry]

"Steve Hayes" wrote in message
news:1hmft9dp273ujvr5u...@4ax.com...

>
>On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 09:24:23 +0100, "Guy Barry"
><guy....@blueyonder.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>Given the recent discussion of the pronunciation of "harass", may I offer
>>"shallot" as an example of a word where the pattern of double and single
>>consonants suggests the wrong stress pattern? I once knew someone who'd
>>only seen it written down and pronounced it to rhyme with "ballot".
>
>Surely the metre of the pome gives a cloo?

What poem? I don't know any poems about shallots. (I've just eaten one
though.)

--
Guy Barry

[Jerry Friedman]

On 7/29/14 8:53 AM, Katy Jennison wrote:
> On 29/07/2014 15:06, Guy Barry wrote:
>> "Jerry Friedman" wrote in message news:lr87ui$iq9$1...@news.albasani.net...
>>>
>>> On 7/29/14 2:24 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
>>>> Given the recent discussion of the pronunciation of "harass", may I
>>>> offer "shallot" as an example of a word where the pattern of double and
>>>> single consonants suggests the wrong stress pattern?
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Also "rattan", "chiffon", AmE "ballet", and BrE "appal". There are
>>> probably more like that.

"Allot", AmE "massif". Our "carillon" (usually stressed on the first
syllable) gets an honorable mention.

Funny that after "shallot" and "ballot", I had to look in a rhyming
dictionary to find "allot".

>> "Chiffon" has first-syllable stress in BrE (as far as I know).

*sigh* Guess I should have checked.

> So does "rattan", IME, although the stresses are not far off equal.

*sigh again*, though the OED says of "rattan" "Brit. /rəˈtan/ , /raˈtan/
, /ˈratan/ , U.S. /ræˈtæn/ , /rəˈtæn/ , /ˈrætæn/ " In case that doesn't
come through, the first two are stressed on the second syllable.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 18:35:07 +0100, "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk>

wrote:

>"Steve Hayes" wrote in message
>news:1hmft9dp273ujvr5u...@4ax.com...
>>
>>On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 09:24:23 +0100, "Guy Barry"
>><guy....@blueyonder.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Given the recent discussion of the pronunciation of "harass", may I offer
>>>"shallot" as an example of a word where the pattern of double and single
>>>consonants suggests the wrong stress pattern? I once knew someone who'd
>>>only seen it written down and pronounced it to rhyme with "ballot".
>>
>>Surely the metre of the pome gives a cloo?
>
>What poem? I don't know any poems about shallots. (I've just eaten one
>though.)

This is the only one I know; slightly different spelling, though.


The Lady of Shalott (1832)
By Alfred, Lord Tennyson
Part I
On either side the river lie
Long fields of barley and of rye,
That clothe the wold and meet the sky;
And thro' the field the road runs by
To many-tower'd Camelot;
The yellow-leaved waterlily
The green-sheathed daffodilly
Tremble in the water chilly
Round about Shalott.

Willows whiten, aspens shiver.
The sunbeam showers break and quiver
In the stream that runneth ever
By the island in the river
Flowing down to Camelot.
Four gray walls, and four gray towers
Overlook a space of flowers,
And the silent isle imbowers
The Lady of Shalott.

Underneath the bearded barley,
The reaper, reaping late and early,
Hears her ever chanting cheerly,
Like an angel, singing clearly,
O'er the stream of Camelot.
Piling the sheaves in furrows airy,
Beneath the moon, the reaper weary
Listening whispers, ' 'Tis the fairy,
Lady of Shalott.'

The little isle is all inrail'd
With a rose-fence, and overtrail'd
With roses: by the marge unhail'd
The shallop flitteth silken sail'd,
Skimming down to Camelot.
A pearl garland winds her head:
She leaneth on a velvet bed,
Full royally apparelled,
The Lady of Shalott.

Part II
No time hath she to sport and play:
A charmed web she weaves alway.
A curse is on her, if she stay
Her weaving, either night or day,
To look down to Camelot.
She knows not what the curse may be;
Therefore she weaveth steadily,
Therefore no other care hath she,
The Lady of Shalott.

She lives with little joy or fear.
Over the water, running near,
The sheepbell tinkles in her ear.
Before her hangs a mirror clear,
Reflecting tower'd Camelot.
And as the mazy web she whirls,
She sees the surly village churls,
And the red cloaks of market girls
Pass onward from Shalott.

Sometimes a troop of damsels glad,
An abbot on an ambling pad,
Sometimes a curly shepherd lad,
Or long-hair'd page in crimson clad,
Goes by to tower'd Camelot:
And sometimes thro' the mirror blue
The knights come riding two and two:
She hath no loyal knight and true,
The Lady of Shalott.

But in her web she still delights
To weave the mirror's magic sights,
For often thro' the silent nights
A funeral, with plumes and lights
And music, came from Camelot:
Or when the moon was overhead
Came two young lovers lately wed;
I am half sick of shadows,' said
The Lady of Shalott.

Part III
A bow-shot from her bower-eaves,
He rode between the barley-sheaves,
The sun came dazzling thro' the leaves,
And flam'd upon the brazen greaves
Of bold Sir Lancelot.
A red-cross knight for ever kneel'd
To a lady in his shield,
That sparkled on the yellow field,
Beside remote Shalott.

The gemmy bridle glitter'd free,
Like to some branch of stars we see
Hung in the golden Galaxy.
The bridle bells rang merrily
As he rode down from Camelot:
And from his blazon'd baldric slung
A mighty silver bugle hung,
And as he rode his armour rung,
Beside remote Shalott.

All in the blue unclouded weather
Thick-jewell'd shone the saddle-leather,
The helmet and the helmet-feather
Burn'd like one burning flame together,
As he rode down from Camelot.
As often thro' the purple night,
Below the starry clusters bright,
Some bearded meteor, trailing light,
Moves over green Shalott.

His broad clear brow in sunlight glow'd;
On burnish'd hooves his war-horse trode;
From underneath his helmet flow'd
His coal-black curls as on he rode,
As he rode down from Camelot.
From the bank and from the river
He flash'd into the crystal mirror,
'Tirra lirra, tirra lirra:'
Sang Sir Lancelot.

She left the web, she left the loom
She made three paces thro' the room
She saw the water-flower bloom,
She saw the helmet and the plume,
She look'd down to Camelot.
Out flew the web and floated wide;
The mirror crack'd from side to side;
'The curse is come upon me,' cried
The Lady of Shalott.

Part IV
In the stormy east-wind straining,
The pale yellow woods were waning,
The broad stream in his banks complaining,
Heavily the low sky raining
Over tower'd Camelot;
Outside the isle a shallow boat
Beneath a willow lay afloat,
Below the carven stern she wrote,
The Lady of Shalott.

A cloudwhite crown of pearl she dight,
All raimented in snowy white
That loosely flew (her zone in sight
Clasp'd with one blinding diamond bright)
Her wide eyes fix'd on Camelot,
Though the squally east-wind keenly
Blew, with folded arms serenely
By the water stood the queenly
Lady of Shalott.

With a steady stony glance—
Like some bold seer in a trance,
Beholding all his own mischance,
Mute, with a glassy countenance—
She look'd down to Camelot.
It was the closing of the day:
She loos'd the chain, and down she lay;
The broad stream bore her far away,
The Lady of Shalott.

As when to sailors while they roam,
By creeks and outfalls far from home,
Rising and dropping with the foam,
From dying swans wild warblings come,
Blown shoreward; so to Camelot
Still as the boathead wound along
The willowy hills and fields among,
They heard her chanting her deathsong,
The Lady of Shalott.

A longdrawn carol, mournful, holy,
She chanted loudly, chanted lowly,
Till her eyes were darken'd wholly,
And her smooth face sharpen'd slowly,
Turn'd to tower'd Camelot:
For ere she reach'd upon the tide
The first house by the water-side,
Singing in her song she died,
The Lady of Shalott.

Under tower and balcony,
By garden wall and gallery,
A pale, pale corpse she floated by,
Deadcold, between the houses high,
Dead into tower'd Camelot.
Knight and burgher, lord and dame,
To the planked wharfage came:
Below the stern they read her name,
The Lady of Shalott.

They cross'd themselves, their stars they blest,
Knight, minstrel, abbot, squire, and guest.
There lay a parchment on her breast,
That puzzled more than all the rest,
The wellfed wits at Camelot.
'The web was woven curiously,
The charm is broken utterly,
Draw near and fear not,—this is I,
The Lady of Shalott.'

[Peter T. Daniels]

I have a vague recollection that someone may have already mentioned
that we're not talking about this Lady?

And The Laureate (as they seem always to have referred to him as)
ought to be ashamed of "daffodilly."

[musika]

You think he made it up? It goes back to, at least, Spenser and was a
normal variant (among others) of daffodil.

--
Ray
UK

[Robert Bannister]

I've only heard the lady and the onion pronounced the same way.

--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia

[Robert Bannister]

More logical spelling, one might say.
I wonder if she was related to Magrat Garlick, Queen of Lancre.

[Robert Bannister]

In my dialect:
/'r&-t&n/ nearly equal stress, but first syllable wins.
/'Si-fA.n/ as above - even more first syllable, but not enough to reduce
the "o" to a schwa.
Only "appal" agrees with your statement.

[Robert Bannister]

On 30/07/2014 1:38 am, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 7/29/14 8:53 AM, Katy Jennison wrote:
>> On 29/07/2014 15:06, Guy Barry wrote:
>>> "Jerry Friedman" wrote in message
>>> news:lr87ui$iq9$1...@news.albasani.net...
>>>>
>>>> On 7/29/14 2:24 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
>>>>> Given the recent discussion of the pronunciation of "harass", may I
>>>>> offer "shallot" as an example of a word where the pattern of double
>>>>> and
>>>>> single consonants suggests the wrong stress pattern?
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Also "rattan", "chiffon", AmE "ballet", and BrE "appal". There are
>>>> probably more like that.
>
> "Allot", AmE "massif". Our "carillon" (usually stressed on the first
> syllable) gets an honorable mention.

"AllOT" and "massEEF" in BrE too, but "carillon" is "k@-RILL-yon"
/k@-'il-jA.n/ - even "k@-RILLy-yon".

[Robert Bannister]

In addition, don't "leaved" and "sheathed" need to have two syllables to
fit the metre? Aha! I find the original does have "leav�d" and "sheath�d".

"Long fields of barley and of rye" has to be one of the more banal lines
Tennyson wrote, and if these cereals really do reach higher than an
elephant's eye, how come the wold is visible at all?

This poem is only famous because it is almost alone in mentioning the
feminine time of the month: "The curse it is upon me", cried the Lady of
Shalott."

[musika]

Apart from those of us who pronounce it with first syllable stress and
no "y" sound. /ˈkærɨlɒn/

--
Ray
UK

[CDB]

On 29/07/2014 10:06 AM, Guy Barry wrote:

> "Jerry Friedman" wrote:
>> Guy Barry wrote:

>>> Given the recent discussion of the pronunciation of "harass", may
>>> I offer "shallot" as an example of a word where the pattern of
>>> double and single consonants suggests the wrong stress pattern?
>> ...

>> Also "rattan", "chiffon", AmE "ballet", and BrE "appal". There are
>> probably more like that.

> "Chiffon" has first-syllable stress in BrE (as far as I know).

That may be recent, or anyway not universal. Stevie Smith's great poem
"Black March" (found in a collection published in 1962) starts

I have a friend
At the end
Of the world.
His name is a breath

Of fresh air.
He is dressed in
Grey chiffon. At least
I think it is chiffon.
It has a
Peculiar look, like smoke.
..........................

The rhythm indicates pretty clearly that she intended "chiffon" to have
final stress; when I read it aloud, indeed, I pronounce the word as in
French.

The arrangement of words on the page seems intended to indicate
pronunciation -- hesitations at the end of lines, a longer pause after
"breath", midsentence, while your mind supplies the rhyming word -- and
I think we can assume it was her intention to suggest a reading of the poem.

[Here's where I would post a link; but I couldn't find the text online.
Scandal!]

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 7:50:56 PM UTC-4, Robert Bannister wrote:

> "Long fields of barley and of rye" has to be one of the more banal lines
> Tennyson wrote,

But there are so many to choose from!

[Guy Barry]

"Steve Hayes" wrote in message

news:fmoft9hb648p4em4o...@4ax.com...

>
>On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 18:35:07 +0100, "Guy Barry"
><guy....@blueyonder.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>"Steve Hayes" wrote in message
>>news:1hmft9dp273ujvr5u...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 09:24:23 +0100, "Guy Barry"
>>><guy....@blueyonder.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Given the recent discussion of the pronunciation of "harass", may I
>>>>offer
>>>>"shallot" as an example of a word where the pattern of double and single
>>>>consonants suggests the wrong stress pattern? I once knew someone who'd
>>>>only seen it written down and pronounced it to rhyme with "ballot".
>>>
>>>Surely the metre of the pome gives a cloo?
>>
>>What poem? I don't know any poems about shallots. (I've just eaten one
>>though.)
>
>This is the only one I know; slightly different spelling, though.
>
>
>The Lady of Shalott (1832)

And therefore irrelevant to my question, which was about words where the
pattern of double and single consonants suggests the *wrong* stress pattern.
The proper name "Shalott" (unconnected with the name of the vegetable
"shallot" as far as I know) has a single consonant followed by a double
consonant, suggesting the *correct* stress pattern (second-syllable stress).

"Shallot" has a double consonant followed by a single consonant, suggesting
first-syllable stress. This appears to be the correct stress pattern for
some AmE speakers, but in BrE it's unquestionably wrong.

--
Guy Barry

[Guy Barry]

"Robert Bannister" wrote in message
news:c3qqb3...@mid.individual.net...

>
>On 30/07/2014 3:07 am, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> I have a vague recollection that someone may have already mentioned
>> that we're not talking about this Lady?
>>
>> And The Laureate (as they seem always to have referred to him as)
>> ought to be ashamed of "daffodilly."
>>
>In addition, don't "leaved" and "sheathed" need to have two syllables to
>fit the metre? Aha! I find the original does have "leav�d" and "sheath�d".

The 1842 version strikes me as an improvement:

"On either side the river lie
Long fields of barley and of rye,
That clothe the wold and meet the sky;
And thro' the field the road runs by
To many-tower'd Camelot;

And up and down the people go,
Gazing where the lilies blow
Round an island there below,
The island of Shalott."

--
Guy Barry

[Dr Nick]

What is this meant to indicate? Presumably not that it's pronounced
"throw", so how are "thro'" and "through" meant to differ? Did
"through" ever have two syllables?

>>> To many-tower'd Camelot;
>>> The yellow-leaved waterlily
>>> The green-sheathed daffodilly
>>> Tremble in the water chilly
>>> Round about Shalott.
>>
>> I have a vague recollection that someone may have already mentioned
>> that we're not talking about this Lady?
>>
>> And The Laureate (as they seem always to have referred to him as)
>> ought to be ashamed of "daffodilly."
>>
> In addition, don't "leaved" and "sheathed" need to have two syllables

> to fit the metre? Aha! I find the original does have "leavèd" and
> "sheathèd".

>
> "Long fields of barley and of rye" has to be one of the more banal
> lines Tennyson wrote, and if these cereals really do reach higher than
> an elephant's eye, how come the wold is visible at all?

To be fair, he probably meant they stretch to the horizon. Obviously he
was writing about a time when the combine harvester had caused the loss
of most of the hedges.

> This poem is only famous because it is almost alone in mentioning the
> feminine time of the month: "The curse it is upon me", cried the Lady
> of Shalott."

It's a rubbish poem. And if Edward Lear could find so many rhymes for
"Akond of Swat", he could have found something other than
"Camelot/Shallot", surely.

[Robert Bannister]

I have never heard that. I do occasionally hear a full-on French
pronunciation, "ka-rI-jõn" with no L and a nasal vowel on the end. The
only one I really know in England is the one at Loughborough which I
learned as I said above.

[Robert Bannister]

True, and Tennyson and Wordsworth between them wrote an awful lot.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, July 30, 2014 7:49:12 PM UTC-4, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 30/07/2014 11:22 am, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 7:50:56 PM UTC-4, Robert Bannister wrote:

> >> "Long fields of barley and of rye" has to be one of the more banal lines
> >> Tennyson wrote,
> > But there are so many to choose from!
>
> True, and Tennyson and Wordsworth between them wrote an awful lot.

When it comes to banality, Wordsworth is no Tennyson.

[Jerry Friedman]

A pronunciation like Ray's is normal in America, though most of us
pronounce the first syllable /kE:r/, like "care". (Well, most of us
don't say the word at all.)

The /k@'riljA.n/ pronunciation is another for the list that no foreigner
will ever guess even after learning lots of exceptional pronunciations.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On 7/29/14 5:37 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 29/07/2014 9:35 pm, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On 7/29/14 2:24 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
>>> Given the recent discussion of the pronunciation of "harass", may I
>>> offer "shallot" as an example of a word where the pattern of double and
>>> single consonants suggests the wrong stress pattern?
>> ...
>>
>> Also "rattan", "chiffon", AmE "ballet", and BrE "appal". There are
>> probably more like that.
>>
> In my dialect:
> /'r&-t&n/ nearly equal stress, but first syllable wins.
> /'Si-fA.n/ as above - even more first syllable, but not enough to reduce
> the "o" to a schwa.

...

You can use a comma for a secondary accent in ASCII IPA, as in
/'r&,t&n/. I don't think it provides a way to distinguish the different
secondary accents you have in "rattan" and "chiffon", though just
writing the /A./ instead of /@/ might do it. Otherwise there's the
1-2-3-4 system that PTD follows.

By the say, the hyphen means "syllabic" in ASCII IPA, as in the way I
say "cattle", ['k&tl-]. If you want to separate syllables, you're
supposed to use spaces. I think.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Robert Bannister]

It used to irritate me when I was younger, especially after I started
learning French, but I put in the box of "old people's words" along with
/'rE-z@-vO/ (reservoir) - the latter is more restricted to dialect, but
"kuRILLyon" seems be a favourite. By the way, in case anyone thought I
was talking solely about Britain, we have two carillons (that I know of)
here in Perth, and I have only heard them called a /k@-'il-jA.n/. Ray's
version sounds like "Carolyn".

[Robert Bannister]

Thank you.

[Robert Bannister]

I had to "do" part of Wordsworth's "Prelude" at school. The teacher made
the mistake of pointing us to some other parts of the work, after which
it all seemed pretty dismal.

I don't know how well qualified this writer is, but I rather agree with him:

"Here�s my problem with Wordsworth�s /Prelude./ I�m of the mind that
Wordsworth is a second rate poet, but reading his /Prelude/ convinces me
that Wordsworth isn�t just a second rate poet who writes poorly but a
third rate poet who only occasionally writes well."

http://poemshape.wordpress.com/2014/02/16/the-problem-with-wordsworths-prelude/

[LFS]

We too had to study The Prelude at school. I still can't understand why,
when there are other much more interesting Romantic poets. And poor
Dorothy had such a rotten life enabling her brother to write such awful
stuff.

--
Laura (emulate St George for email)

[Guy Barry]

"Robert Bannister" wrote in message

news:c40fj6...@mid.individual.net...

>It used to irritate me when I was younger, especially after I started
>learning French, but I put in the box of "old people's words" along with
>/'rE-z@-vO/ (reservoir) - the latter is more restricted to dialect,

My grandfather (from east London) used that pronunciation ("reservor" as one
might transcribe it). I thought it was very odd.

--
Guy Barry

[musika]

My dialect had RES-er-voy.

--
Ray
UK

[Jerry Friedman]

That's the most common pronunciation in my American experience (except
where it's pronounced /leIk/).

Maybe some people aren't willing to say /vw/, which is very rare in
English (though VWs are common). The first time I was summoned for jury
duty, one of the lawyers started by telling us that the process of
picking the jury was called "voire dire", and he then demonstrated five
or six ways to pronounce it.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Robert Bannister]

Originally, I thought it was just my grandmother, but I gradually
realised that heaps of people thought it was the correct pronunciation.

[Robert Bannister]

I don't really want to know the exact relationship between Dorothy and
her brother. It didn't help that I don't really like poetry much anyway,
but at least we did Browning as well, and I could relate to his poetry
[crossthread alert], although he was the one that made the blunder over
"twat".

[John Holmes]

There is a Melbourne suburb of that name which has always been
pronounced that way.

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

[Jerry Friedman]

I think it's misleading to judge poets by their bad or mediocre stuff,
even if it's as long as I'm told the /Prelude/ is. There's no reason to
pay attention to anything but their best--as teachers and curriculum
setters should realize.

"A good poet is someone who manages, in a lifetime of standing out in
thunderstorms, to be struck by lightning five or six times; a dozen or
two dozen times and he is great."

--Randall Jarrell, "Reflections on Wallace Stevens"

--
Jerry Friedman