Diesel dikes and bull daggers (was: "A helpful comma")
Ross Howard
"diesel dike" led me to two musings:
1. Fewer people must read James Ellroy novels than I thought.
2. What is the origin of the deeply Ellrovian (i.e. 40s-50s US slang)
terms for lesbians "diesel dike" and "bull dagger"? The first one I
can just about make a guess at -- "diesel" from mechanics and
truck-drivers and "dike" (or "dyke"; both spellings are common),
depending on your preferred theory, either from the goddess Dice or
from a "blocked-off passage" -- but where the hell did they come up
with "bull dagger"?
Another puzzle: I've heard the cross-fertilised "bull dyke" but never
heard "diesel dagger" or any other sort of daggers other than the bull
ones. Have I led a sheltered life, Rey?
Ross Howard
--------------------
(Kick ass for e-mail)
"What you don't know will scare the shit out of you."
-- Rod Steiger (1925-2002)
Jerry
"Ross Howard" <gdonke...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fq2aav0k7jrrfo5nf...@4ax.com...
> 2. What is the origin of the deeply Ellrovian (i.e. 40s-50s US slang)
> terms for lesbians "diesel dike" and "bull dagger"? The first one I
> can just about make a guess at -- "diesel" from mechanics and
> truck-drivers and "dike" (or "dyke"; both spellings are common),
> depending on your preferred theory, either from the goddess Dice or
> from a "blocked-off passage" -- but where the hell did they come up
> with "bull dagger"?
One possibility is 'dag' meaning a lump of dried excrement attached to the
fur or wool around a sheep's backside. e.g. "Rattle your dags' - get a move
on.
So bull dagger may mean bull-sh*tter
Ross Howard
wrote:
>"Ross Howard" <gdonke...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:fq2aav0k7jrrfo5nf...@4ax.com...
> where the hell did they come up
>> with "bull dagger"?
>
>One possibility is 'dag' meaning a lump of dried excrement attached to the
>fur or wool around a sheep's backside. e.g. "Rattle your dags' - get a move
>on.
>
>So bull dagger may mean bull-sh[i]tter [1]
Nice try, but it doesn't mean that; it's a virtually exact synonym of
"diesel dike", referring to the kind of macho-momma who, after
flicking through the designs on offer at the tattoo parlour, says to
the tattooist in a voice a few octaves down from Henry Kissinger, "Too
many fucking dolphins. Gimme 'U.S. MARINE CORPS' on both biceps."
Nope -- them gals don't bullshit.
[1. Original asteriskery unbowdlerised; you merrily air theories about
crap-caked anal hair yet you shy from writing "shit"?]
tomca...@yanospamhoo.com
>> Nice try, but it doesn't mean that; it's a virtually exact synonym of
>> "diesel dike", referring to the kind of macho-momma who, after
>> flicking through the designs on offer at the tattoo parlour, says to
>> the tattooist in a voice a few octaves down from Henry Kissinger, "Too
>> many fucking dolphins. Gimme 'U.S. MARINE CORPS' on both biceps."
"Semper Fi", maybe ...
> I think we could fit in (you should uxcuse the expression) some reference to
> 'dagger' as a slang term for penis, couldn't we?
I always assumed "bull dagger" was a corruption of "bulldog".
Ross Howard
<john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>Ross Howard wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Apr 2003 19:25:02 +0800, "Jerry" <nob...@nodomain.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Ross Howard" <gdonke...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:fq2aav0k7jrrfo5nf...@4ax.com...
>>
>>> where the hell did they come up
>>>> with "bull dagger"?
>>>
>>> One possibility is 'dag' meaning a lump of dried excrement attached
>>> to the fur or wool around a sheep's backside. e.g. "Rattle your
>>> dags' - get a move on.
>>>
>>> So bull dagger may mean bull-sh[i]tter [1]
>>
>> Nice try, but it doesn't mean that; it's a virtually exact synonym of
>> "diesel dike", referring to the kind of macho-momma who, after
>> flicking through the designs on offer at the tattoo parlour, says to
>> the tattooist in a voice a few octaves down from Henry Kissinger, "Too
>> many fucking dolphins. Gimme 'U.S. MARINE CORPS' on both biceps."
>>
>I think we could fit in (you should uxcuse the expression) some reference to
>'dagger' as a slang term for penis, couldn't we?
A penetrating observation. But what might bovine boners have to do
with butch lesbians? Or could it be some kind of ironic (from the US?)
suggestion that a lady of this type is so unfeminine that she must
have a dick the size of a bull's?
Ross Howard
-------------------
(Kick ass for e-mail)
"It's a new dawn, it's a new day, it's a new life for me --
and I'm feelin' good." -- US emigré Nina Simone (1933-2003)
Ross Howard
>John Dean <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>
>>> Nice try, but it doesn't mean that; it's a virtually exact synonym of
>>> "diesel dike", referring to the kind of macho-momma who, after
>>> flicking through the designs on offer at the tattoo parlour, says to
>>> the tattooist in a voice a few octaves down from Henry Kissinger, "Too
>>> many fucking dolphins. Gimme 'U.S. MARINE CORPS' on both biceps."
>
>"Semper Fi", maybe ...
Naw, Latin's for girlies.
Ross Howard
http://www.hurricane.net/~wizard/19l.html
(My comments in square brackets.)
Amy-john
Beaver eater
Boon dagger [huh?]
Bull
Bull dagger
Bull dyke
Butch [should be marked "adj.", surely]
Carpet muncher [but that comes from male anal sex, surely]
Diesel dyke
Dyke
fairy lady
Fem
Femme
Fluff
Fluzz dyke [sounds interesting -- what's "fluzz", Rey?]
Gal boy
Gay [see comment on "Butch]"
Jasper [huh?]
Lady-lover
Les
Lesbo
Lesbyterian [whoa, sounds hea-vee]
Lezzie
Lezzo
Lover under the lap
Margie [huh?]
Mintle [re-huh?]
Ruffle
Rug eater [see comment on "carrpet muncher"]
Sappho
Sergeant
Sister [isn't that also a possibly hetero black woman?]
Split tail lover
Tootsie
Top sergeant
Ttribadist [say wha?]
Wolf
Tony Cooper
>I always assumed "bull dagger" was a corruption of "bulldog".
You can probably come up with several origins for the term. Googling
through groups (with a very masculine swagger), I came across:
Bulldagger; bulldag n. (1940's-1950's) variant of "bull dyke";
lesbian (or even a tomboy); or an especially aggressive female
homosexual; (1960s) negative term for a female homosexual. This term
and "bull dyke" generally declined in use during the early sixties.
Bull dyke; bulldyker n. (1920s-1950s) lesbian.
Example: "Yeah, man, a bull dyke took my wife from me. Talk
about rotten luck."
A related term is "she-he".
These definitions are from Clarence Major's dictionary "Juba to
Jive". HOWEVER! (And I'll be as delicate as possible in stating
this) I very distinctly remember from my youth (early sixties) an
older black man explaining to me all about a "bull dagger" and he
was using to describe a clitoris. He went on to make a analogy
between intercourse and a bull fight, wherein the "bulldagger"
performed similar to the picadores. Or, as he said, "... that
bulldagger justa jabbin' that old bull!". Well, it made sense at
my uninformed young age. Until these recent posts, I hadn't seen or
heard the term used in any context for many years, and now it shows
up and I find it defined with almost an opposite meaning from the way
I learned it.
And one that looks interesting:
Britain: "A Boadicea for the third millennium" is how artist Mark
Reddy describes his sculpture known as "New Britannia," whose likeness
has been selected as the official logo for Britain's Millennium Dome
and related celebrations. Boadicea (also spelled many other ways) was
an early warrior queen of Britain who led troops into battle against
the Romans, and some believe that her name may be the semantic root of
the phrase "bull dagger" or "bull dyke." Reddy's image, purchased by
the Millennium Experience Company for 90,000-pounds, is an athletic
redheaded nude who reaches for a star as the dawn breaks, sculpted in
a perspective that makes her head small and her legs long. He sees her
as an image of the strength of women and developed the image based on
his own wife. "New Britannia" will be cast as a 60-foot statue and
placed straddling the Greenwich Meridian (the standard time zone),
leading some to call her "the Colossus of Greenwich." Others refer to
her derisively as "Ginger Spice," the recently departed leader of the
Spice Girls.
--
Tony Cooper aka: tony_co...@yahoo.com
Provider of Jots, Tittles, and Oy!s
John Dean
> Just found this collection of synonyms for "lesbian" at
> http://www.hurricane.net/~wizard/19l.html
>
> (My comments in square brackets.)
>
Someone misheard 'bull dagger'
> Butch [should be marked "adj.", surely]
I don't see why you can't be a Butch. Even a butch Butch. Cassel's Dic of
Slag & OED both have the noun.
> Carpet muncher [but that comes from male anal sex, surely]
In the sense of 'pillow-biter, perhaps. But more common to describe female
oral sex. cf 'Supping/quaffing from the furry goblet'.
> Diesel dyke
Cassell's suggests 'diesel' is from the locomotive - big 'n' tuff
> Fluzz dyke [sounds interesting -- what's "fluzz", Rey?]
Cross between 'fuzz' and 'fluff'?
> Jasper [huh?]
Like 'Butch' the noun, originally a term for a tough guy. A staple of the
Westerns of my youth - 'Say, who's that jasper with the sixguns on?'
> Margie [huh?]
From the name. Similar to 'Nellie' I guess. Cassell's has 'Marge'
> Mintle [re-huh?]
Sure it's not 'mintie' (Cassell's - 'an aging homosexual')?
> Ttribadist [say wha?]
Sounds like the kind of thing only a cunning linguist could pronounce.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Pat Durkin
> "diesel dike" led me to two musings:
>
> 1. Fewer people must read James Ellroy novels than I thought.
>
> 2. What is the origin of the deeply Ellrovian (i.e. 40s-50s US slang)
> terms for lesbians "diesel dike" and "bull dagger"? The first one I
> can just about make a guess at -- "diesel" from mechanics and
> truck-drivers and "dike" (or "dyke"; both spellings are common),
> depending on your preferred theory, either from the goddess Dice or
> from a "blocked-off passage" -- but where the hell did they come up
> with "bull dagger"?
>
with the change in the vowel sound happening in the same way that
"motorcycle" (motor-sigh-cle) was frequently corrupted to "motorsackle"
amongst my childhood friends.
Kids' pronunciations or mispronunciations just happen, and in some circles
are carried into adulthood, as some kids never leave their childhood
circles. Ever hear of "morfadite"? I know people who still use that word,
and probably wouldn't recognize the "hermaphrodite" pronunciation.
Jerry Friedman
> >I think we could fit in (you should uxcuse the expression) some reference to
> >'dagger' as a slang term for penis, couldn't we?
>
> A penetrating observation. But what might bovine boners have to do
> with butch lesbians? Or could it be some kind of ironic (from the US?)
> suggestion that a lady of this type is so unfeminine that she must
> have a dick the size of a bull's?
Somebody imagined using a bull pizzle as a dildo?
My yout'ful theory was that "dike" came from the little boy (?) with
his finger in the dike, but now my favorite unsubstantiated theory is
that it's from "morphodite", an attested corruption of
"hermaphrodite". There's a citation to _The Random House Historical
Dictionary of American Slang_ at <http://tinyurl.com/a2gm>.
--
Jerry Friedman
Ross Howard
Friedman) wrote:
>My yout'ful theory was that "dike" came from the little boy (?) with
>his finger in the dike, but now my favorite unsubstantiated theory is
>that it's from "morphodite", an attested corruption of
>"hermaphrodite". There's a citation to _The Random House Historical
>Dictionary of American Slang_ at <http://tinyurl.com/a2gm>.
I always assumed it was a variant of your Dutch boy one -- the conduit
that is blocked up and thus can be penentrated by no man. I see
there's also version about some goddess or other called Dice too. And
Tony Cooper left me poleaxed with the one about bull dyke being a
corruption of Boadicea/Boudicca (which is so good it must be an urban
legend).
Anyone for a Valkyrie thyrie?
(I'm quite proud of this thread. We don't often get to cover bull's
pizzles, Dutch earthworks and knife-wheeled charioteuses while staying
bang on topic.)
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>The problems that several people (obviously not Rey) had recognising
>"diesel dike" led me to two musings:
>
>1. Fewer people must read James Ellroy novels than I thought.
>
>2. What is the origin of the deeply Ellrovian (i.e. 40s-50s US slang)
>terms for lesbians "diesel dike" and "bull dagger"? The first one I
>can just about make a guess at -- "diesel" from mechanics and
>truck-drivers and "dike" (or "dyke"; both spellings are common),
>depending on your preferred theory, either from the goddess Dice or
>from a "blocked-off passage" -- but where the hell did they come up
>with "bull dagger"?
I knew of a dyke and a deisel dyke, but not a dike.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Ross Howard
wrote:
>I knew of a dyke and a deisel dyke, but not a dike.
The spelling of slang should be taken as it cums, but a Google search
on "lesbian dike" (to avoid interference from Dutch earthworks) does
get 6,600 hits. The gay-slang glossary I cited somewhere up-thread
also swung both ways in terms of the possible spelling.
I see something similar happening (except in reverse) with "kike"and
"kyke".
K1912
>Just found this collection of synonyms for "lesbian" at
>http://www.hurricane.net/~wizard/19l.html
>
>(My comments in square brackets.)
>
>Amy-john
>Beaver eater
>Boon dagger [huh?]
>Bull
>Bull dagger
>Bull dyke
>Butch [should be marked "adj.", surely]
>Carpet muncher [but that comes from male anal sex, surely]
A carpet muncher by any other name is a beaver eater or a rug eater; the
"carpet" and "rug" attest that the beaver is hirshute and, nowadays, probably
sporting a topiary trim. Just out of curiosity, how comes it you're so sure it
has to do with male anal sex?
>Diesel dyke
>Dyke
>fairy lady
>Fem
>Femme
>Fluff
>Fluzz dyke [sounds interesting -- what's "fluzz", Rey?]
>Gal boy
>Gay [see comment on "Butch]"
>Jasper [huh?]
>Lady-lover
>Les
>Lesbo
>Lesbyterian [whoa, sounds hea-vee]
Sounds like a Presbyterian with a lisp.
>Lezzie
>Lezzo
>Lover under the lap
>Margie [huh?]
>Mintle [re-huh?]
Perhaps it has something to do with the reputed aphrodisiac properties of mint,
the erotic value of which Shakespeare mentions in The Winter's Tale. ( Ross, I
feel obligated to drag Shakespeare into it).
>Ruffle
>Rug eater [see comment on "carrpet muncher"]
>Sappho
>Sergeant
>Sister [isn't that also a possibly hetero black woman?]
>Split tail lover
>Tootsie
>Top sergeant
>Ttribadist [say wha?]
Tribadism is a lesbian practice in which one partner lies on top of the other
and simulates coitus by rubbing the genitals together.
>Wolf
George
The least pain in our little finger gives us more concern and uneasiness that
the destruction of millions of our fellow-beings.--William Hazlitt
Ross Howard
>Ross Howard wrote:
>>Carpet muncher [but that comes from male anal sex, surely]
>
>A carpet muncher by any other name is a beaver eater or a rug eater; the
>"carpet" and "rug" attest that the beaver is hirshute and, nowadays, probably
>sporting a topiary trim. Just out of curiosity, how comes it you're so sure it
>has to do with male anal sex?
I screwed up, George, that's how. I was getting confused with
pillow-biting, you see, imagining a guy face down on the floor,
literally munching the carpet, while another guy pours him the
brisket. (Sorry about that -- I'm having a James Ellroy kind of a
day.)
>>Mintle [re-huh?]
>
>Perhaps it has something to do with the reputed aphrodisiac properties of mint,
>the erotic value of which Shakespeare mentions in The Winter's Tale. ( Ross, I
>feel obligated to drag Shakespeare into it).
I know that cross-dressing abounds, but is there any overt lesbianism
in Shakespeare? There must at least be some "modern" production out
there with a deeply diesel-dykey Lady Macbeth and three bull-daggerish
witches. And I always thought Portia was a bit dodgy for some reason.
>>Ttribadist [say wha?]
>
>Tribadism is a lesbian practice in which one partner lies on top of the other
>and simulates coitus by rubbing the genitals together.
Wow. I'm impressed. I just hope that the practicants are called
"tribadistes". But, isn't this just a fancy word for girl-on-girl
mutual frottage? (Who coined it -- Krafft-Ebing?)
Jerry Friedman
> Just found this collection of synonyms for "lesbian" at
> http://www.hurricane.net/~wizard/19l.html
>
> (My comments in square brackets.)
>
> Amy-john
Was the name "Amy" ever common enough to stand in for "woman", as it
appears to here, or does this have some other origin?
...
> Ttribadist [say wha?]
...
From the Greek for "rub", whence also "tribology", the study of
friction, and "triboluminescence", making a Wint-O-Green lifesaver
sparkle in the dark by crunching it with pliers.
Ross, I'll read something by James Ellroy if you read _The Book of the
New Sun_, by Gene Wolfe. You can stop after the first volume (of
four) if you don't like it. I seem to recall that sf isn't your bag.
--
Jerry Friedman
Joe Fineman
> and "dike" (or "dyke"; both spellings are common), depending on your
> preferred theory, either from the goddess Dice or from a
> "blocked-off passage"
Another theory is that it is short for "morphodike", a variant of
"morphodite", a fairly common corruption of "hermaphrodite".
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: "How singular!" said the Gaussian, cautiously approaching a :||
||: delta function. :||
Ross Howard
Friedman) wrote:
Oh, it is if it's vaguely cyberpunky and/or Dicky. I enjoyed Michael
Marshall Smith's *Spares*, for instance.
Anyway, I'll check it out Gene Wolfe.
Ellroy's also a multi-volume merchant: first came the "L.A. Quartet"--
*The Black Dahlia* (a very fictionalised version of the true-crime
case), *The Big Nowhere*, *L.A. Confidential* (on which the film was
based) and *White Jazz* -- and he's now two thirds of the way through
the "Underworld USA Trilogy", having published *American Tabloid* and
*The Cold Six Thousand*.
Try reading this excerpt (the first chapter of his latest novel),
which will give you a pretty good idea of his love-it-or-hate-it
hepcat style:
www.bookbrowse.com/index.cfm?page=title&titleID=838&view=excerpt
Robert Bannister
Amazing. The really amazing part was there were bits that I could
understand (I think).
--
Rob Bannister
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>The spelling of slang should be taken as it cums, but a Google search
>on "lesbian dike" (to avoid interference from Dutch earthworks) does
>get 6,600 hits. The gay-slang glossary I cited somewhere up-thread
>also swung both ways in terms of the possible spelling.
>
>I see something similar happening (except in reverse) with "kike"and
>"kyke".
Maybe it's a tyre/tire thing.
Charles Riggs
<john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>I think we could fit in (you should uxcuse the expression) some reference to
>'dagger' as a slang term for penis, couldn't we?
Any word can substitute for penis if it refers to something longer
than it's wide. A dagger would be a rather short one, but it will do
in a pinch, so I'm told.
--
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>Ross Howard wrote:
>> Carpet muncher [but that comes from male anal sex, surely]
>
>In the sense of 'pillow-biter, perhaps. But more common to describe female
>oral sex. cf 'Supping/quaffing from the furry goblet'.
Is oral sex the preferred type of sex between lesbians? I assume it
is, for I heard a friend of mine describe how she enjoyed going at it
for several hours straight. I was a bit jealous of her lover.
--
Charles Riggs
tomca...@yanospamhoo.com
> Is oral sex the preferred type of sex between lesbians? I assume it
> is, for I heard a friend of mine describe how she enjoyed going at it
> for several hours straight. I was a bit jealous of her lover.
Seems like one's jaw would get tired. I came across an archaic term for
lesbian in a 60s book - a "daughter of Bilitis", which I believe is
a reference to the Pierre Louys book "The Songs of Bilitis". A change
from "Sapphic" at any rate.
Ross Howard
<rob...@it.net.au> wrote:
>Ross Howard wrote:
> > www.bookbrowse.com/index.cfm?page=title&titleID=838&view=excerpt
>
>Amazing. The really amazing part was there were bits that I could
>understand (I think).
It all makes sense by about chapter 83 (don't panic; the book's not
that long: short sentences for short chapters).
Linz
> And Tony Cooper left me poleaxed with the one about bull dyke being a
> corruption of Boadicea/Boudicca (which is so good it must be an urban
> legend).
Well, if it isn't, we should make it one!
Jerry Friedman
> >Ross, I'll read something by James Ellroy if you read _The Book of the
> >New Sun_, by Gene Wolfe. You can stop after the first volume (of
> >four) if you don't like it. I seem to recall that sf isn't your bag.
>
> Oh, it is if it's vaguely cyberpunky and/or Dicky. I enjoyed Michael
> Marshall Smith's *Spares*, for instance.
Hm, haven't read that one.
> Anyway, I'll check it out Gene Wolfe.
>
> Ellroy's also a multi-volume merchant: first came the "L.A. Quartet"--
> *The Black Dahlia* (a very fictionalised version of the true-crime
> case), *The Big Nowhere*, *L.A. Confidential* (on which the film was
> based) and *White Jazz* -- and he's now two thirds of the way through
> the "Underworld USA Trilogy", having published *American Tabloid* and
> *The Cold Six Thousand*.
>
> Try reading this excerpt (the first chapter of his latest novel),
> which will give you a pretty good idea of his love-it-or-hate-it
> hepcat style:
>
> www.bookbrowse.com/index.cfm?page=title&titleID=838&view=excerpt
Jerry: Thanks, pal. Jerry doesn't love it. Jerry withdraws his offer.
--
Jerry Friedman
John Dean
> Ross Howard <ggu...@yadonkeyhoo.com> wrote in message
> news:<o0gbavcdc9fkip7kd...@4ax.com>...
>> On 22 Apr 2003 14:55:52 -0700, jerry_f...@yahoo.com (Jerry
>> Friedman) wrote:
> ...
>
>>> Ross, I'll read something by James Ellroy if you read _The Book of
>>> the
>>> New Sun_, by Gene Wolfe. You can stop after the first volume (of
>>> four) if you don't like it. I seem to recall that sf isn't your
>>> bag.
>>
>> Oh, it is if it's vaguely cyberpunky and/or Dicky. I enjoyed Michael
>> Marshall Smith's *Spares*, for instance.
>
> Hm, haven't read that one.
MMS is strongly recommended. Though I would start with 'Only Forward' for a
real roller-coaster ride. 'Spares' has moments so depressing that you might
be tempted to think all his stuff is a downer when it isn't.