a tale otherwise so utterly improbable

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Yurui Liu

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Jan 16, 2021, 10:45:33 AMJan 16
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Hi,

Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?

Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity.

Tony Cooper

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Jan 16, 2021, 11:12:03 AMJan 16
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Doesn't bother me. It expresses that this aspect is not improbable as
the other aspects are.

--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

Horace LaBadie

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Jan 16, 2021, 11:14:43 AMJan 16
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In article <c5ee7e2f-5c47-4411...@googlegroups.com>,
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.

One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."

Yurui Liu

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Jan 16, 2021, 11:27:27 AMJan 16
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Tony Cooper 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:12:03 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
I thought the context meant that his nervous fever (and concomitant symptoms)
added to the improbability of his story.

I suspect "already" would seem a more likely word choice.

Yurui Liu

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Jan 16, 2021, 11:32:48 AMJan 16
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Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.

Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?

Mack A. Damia

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Jan 16, 2021, 11:43:28 AMJan 16
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On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 07:45:30 -0800 (PST), Yurui Liu
<liuyur...@gmail.com> wrote:

The monster was his creation, and "it's alive" proves the
implausibility of his tale.

"Otherwise", it is the stuff of fantasy, but he experienced the
far-fetched tale he is relating to the reader and lived through it.



Peter T. Daniels

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Jan 16, 2021, 12:15:33 PMJan 16
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Yes.

"Endued" would now be "endowed."

Horace LaBadie

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Jan 16, 2021, 3:04:58 PMJan 16
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In article <578b0523-97ec-44ad...@googlegroups.com>,
The dictionary offers "an otherwise black cat with a single white
whisker."

Peter T. Daniels

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Jan 16, 2021, 3:26:25 PMJan 16
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Different and ordinary sense -- you can't substitute "already" there.

Yurui Liu

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Jan 16, 2021, 7:46:17 PMJan 16
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Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午4:04:58 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
That's a usual use of "otherwise," which signals a contrast between "white"
and "black," but no contrast is implied in Shelley's example.

Yurui Liu

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Jan 16, 2021, 8:21:48 PMJan 16
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Peter T. Daniels 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午1:15:33 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Thank you.
In what sense is "otherwise" used there?

Peter T. Daniels

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Jan 17, 2021, 9:53:28 AMJan 17
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Exactly as everyone has been telling you. Unusual, but not obscure.

Yurui Liu

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Jan 17, 2021, 10:13:01 AMJan 17
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Peter T. Daniels 在 2021年1月17日 星期日下午10:53:28 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
I was looking for a definition I could match the sentence with, and
comparable examples from contemporary sources.

CDB

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Jan 17, 2021, 10:13:32 AMJan 17
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On 1/16/2021 11:32 AM, Yurui Liu wrote:
> Horace LaBadie:
>> Yurui Liu <liuyur...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> Hi,

>>> Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein. Do
>>> you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by the
>>> standards of current English?

>>> Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
>>> were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought
>>> was to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant
>>> pursuit to be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story
>>> that I had to tell. A being whom I myself had formed, and endued
>>> with life, had met me at midnight among the precipices of an
>>> inaccessible mountain. I remembered also the nervous fever with
>>> which I had been seized just at the time that I dated my
>>> creation, and which would give an air of delirium to a tale
>>> otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if any other
>>> had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked
>>> upon it as the ravings of insanity.
>> Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but
>> "otherwise" it is fine.

> I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise"
> could work here.

> Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?

I can't think of any. I agree with you that "otherwise" implies a
contrast that is not apparent in the narrative. As others have said,
"already" could be substituted for it, or words could be inserted:
"which would give an added air of delirium even to a tale otherwise so
utterly improbable"

Mack A. Damia

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Jan 17, 2021, 11:36:42 AMJan 17
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On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 10:13:21 -0500, CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 1/16/2021 11:32 AM, Yurui Liu wrote:
>> Horace LaBadie?
He is comparing fact and fantasy. Why is this so difficult?

"It is a fact the monster lives; OTHERWISE, it could be a fantasy."

"Already" doesn't work.

Lewis

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Jan 17, 2021, 3:17:52 PMJan 17
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I find it a bit odd to contrast "an air of delirium" with "utterly
improbable": but then I find the writing in Frankenstein to be stilted
and poor and I have quite a low opinion of it.

I don't think you’d find this sort of sloppiness in Austen.

> One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
> "reveal" or "disclose."

The meaning "to divulge a secret" did exist, but is marked as archaic
and I think that meaning being archaic predates the authorship of this
novel.

--
If we get through this alive I'll meet you next week same place same
time

Yurui Liu

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Jan 17, 2021, 9:49:24 PMJan 17
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Mack A. Damia 在 2021年1月18日 星期一上午12:36:42 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
What you said above would be more likely expressed otherwise than by
Shelley's sentence:

The fact that the I saw the monster climbing on the precipices last night
adds an element of truth to the otherwise improbable tale.

"An element of truth" contrasts with "improbable," while "an air of delirium"
reinforces the improbability of the tale.

>
> "Already" doesn't work.

Yurui Liu

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Jan 17, 2021, 9:57:58 PMJan 17
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Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一上午4:17:52 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
> In message <hlabadie-065562...@aioe.org> Horace LaBadie <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > In article <c5ee7e2f-5c47-4411...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Yurui Liu <liuyur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
> >> Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
> >> the standards of current English?
> >>
> >> Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
> >> were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
> >> to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
> >> be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
> >> A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
> >> at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
> >> remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
> >> at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
> >> delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
> >> any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
> >> it as the ravings of insanity.
>
> > Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
> > it is fine.
> I find it a bit odd to contrast "an air of delirium" with "utterly
> improbable": but then I find the writing in Frankenstein to be stilted
> and poor and I have quite a low opinion of it.

Maybe "otherwise" was used literally as "in other ways" without implying a contrast there.
Is the following sentence okay?

Apart from the delicious food, the restaurant is also excellent in other ways.

Mack A. Damia

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Jan 17, 2021, 10:12:59 PMJan 17
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On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 18:49:21 -0800 (PST), Yurui Liu
<liuyur...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Mack A. Damia ? 2021?1?18? ?????12:36:42 [UTC+8] ??????
That he actually sees the monster climbing on the precipices (fact)
adds an element of truth to his story; otherwise, it is merely an
improbable tale (fantasy).

Jerry Friedman

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Jan 17, 2021, 10:24:45 PMJan 17
to
Yes, I think that's why it seems strange to us now.

> Is the following sentence okay?
>
> Apart from the delicious food, the restaurant is also excellent in other ways.
...

Yes, though it might be better style without the "also". I'd write "In addition to"
rather than "Apart from".

--
Jerry Friedman

Yurui Liu

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Jan 17, 2021, 10:50:03 PMJan 17
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Jerry Friedman 在 2021年1月18日 星期一上午11:24:45 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Someone here could search for 19-century examples of "an otherwise + adjective"
or "his/her/their/the/ otherwise + adjective" on GoogleBooks to see if using this
sequence without a contrast was common at that time.

Bebercito

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Jan 17, 2021, 11:12:07 PMJan 17
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Le samedi 16 janvier 2021 à 17:32:48 UTC+1, liuyur...@gmail.com a écrit :
> Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
> > In article <c5ee7e2f-5c47-4411...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Yurui Liu <liuyur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
> > > Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
> > > the standards of current English?
> > >
> > > Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
> > > were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
> > > to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
> > > be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
> > > A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
> > > at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
> > > remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
> > > at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
> > > delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
> > > any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
> > > it as the ravings of insanity.
> > Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
> > it is fine.
> I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
> work here.

It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Jan 18, 2021, 1:43:29 AMJan 18
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Yes. "Apart from" implies a contrast, but there is no contrast here.
It's like using "but" when you mean "and".



--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

Lewis

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Jan 18, 2021, 2:49:20 AMJan 18
to
The point is, do not use a 200 tear old book to learn how to construct a
modern English sentence. And especially do not use THIS 200 year old
book.

> Apart from the delicious food, the restaurant is also excellent in other ways.

I would not use apart, I don't think as that implies a criticism; I
would use "In addition to" and drop the 'also'.

--
Nobody puts one over on Fred C. Dobbs.

Yurui Liu

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Jan 18, 2021, 4:53:57 AMJan 18
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Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午3:49:20 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
I read the book with particular caution, always trying to find out
how the language differs from current English.

Lewis

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Jan 18, 2021, 6:09:13 AMJan 18
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But the problem is, the language in it different from the language at
the time as well. It is not a historical record of English in the early
1800s, it is a record of the English used in that book. You are not
getting from it what you think you are getting from it.

If you want a picture of what English was like in the early 1800s, read
Austen. Much better writer.

--
But just because you've seen me on your TV Doesn't mean I'm any more
enlightened than you

Yurui Liu

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Jan 18, 2021, 6:39:55 AMJan 18
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Bebercito 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午12:12:07 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Here is one example of how delirium would paradoxically make an otherwise
improbable story possible:

John said that he had last week been taken on an alien spaceship by two men in black,
who had scrambled his brains by various experiments. His ravings and delusions
add an air of delirium to his otherwise improbable story. Perhaps we should give
him a thorough check-up.

In the example, John's delirium is meant to be a possible indication of the said experience.
The following sentence , "Perhaps we should give him a thorough check-up," acknowledges
the possibility.

On the other hand, I don't see how the proposed usage would paradoxically fit in Shelley's
sentence and plot. If Victor Frankenstein had meant to adduce his delirium or nervous fever
to support his tale of monster creation, he would have said something like , "I thought that
my father and others might believe, however remote that possibility was."

Instead, he said, "I well knew that if any other had communicated such a relation to me,
I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity." Even he himself denied the
slightest possibility the story could gain credence. He thought the story would have sounded
improbable even to himself.

Yurui Liu

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Jan 18, 2021, 6:48:35 AMJan 18
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Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午7:09:13 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
I had considered that possibility when I suggested that others
"search for 19-century examples of 'an otherwise + adjective' or
'his/her/their/the/ otherwise + adjective' on GoogleBooks to see if
using this sequence without a contrast was common at that time."



>

Jerry Friedman

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Jan 18, 2021, 10:13:32 AMJan 18
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...

Is there some reason that you don't do it?

--
Jerry Friedman

Janet

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Jan 18, 2021, 10:21:55 AMJan 18
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In article <a3fc4d50-ea3f-4a3a...@googlegroups.com>,
liuyur...@gmail.com says...
>
> Lewis ? 2021?1?18? ?????4:17:52 [UTC+8] ?????:
You might like to consider a UK organisation called
Education Otherwise, for families who educate their children otherwise
than in school.


https://www.educationotherwise.org/

"About Education Otherwise

From a modest start made by a small group of parents in 1977, Education
Otherwise (EO) has grown to become a well respected and vibrant
registered charity, supporting and advising home educating families in
England and Wales.

Our name comes from the Education Act, which states that parents are
responsible for their children's education, ?either by regular
attendance at school or otherwise? and we work to raise public awareness
of the fact that education is compulsory, but school is not."


Janet

Bebercito

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Jan 18, 2021, 11:18:44 AMJan 18
to
Don't forget this is a Gothic novel, and things aren't so clear-cut. The reference
to delirium, even though it has no actual bearing on the plot, can be made to
create an atmosphere whereby the reader is prompted to think that, like in
delirium, the utterly improbable becomes reality. Literature has many tricks
up its sleeve.

Peter T. Daniels

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Jan 18, 2021, 11:31:01 AMJan 18
to
You wouldn't usually use "otherwise" to add a compliment to a compliment.
Here it would be "In addition to," not "Apart from."

Compare the old joke: "Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy
the play?"

Yurui Liu

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Jan 18, 2021, 11:40:56 AMJan 18
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Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午12:18:44 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Using a word where it would detract from the coherence of the text would be
uncalled for. In keeping with the plot, normal readers only take away the message that
Frankenstein's nervous fever contributed to his reluctance to reveal his story to his family.
If the fever had added probability to his story, it would be inconsistent with the sentence
immediately following the one where the disputed word is found.

Yurui Liu

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Jan 18, 2021, 12:11:50 PMJan 18
to
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午12:18:44 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
The delirium is already real in the plot; there's no reason to prompt the reader
to think so by undermining the coherence of the text.

Bebercito

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Jan 18, 2021, 12:12:36 PMJan 18
to
Again, the inconsistency may deliberately make for a climate of confusion and
an uncanny atmosphere that are hallmarks of the literary genre. Have you
never seen e.g. fantasy movies where the scenario purposefully doesn't "add
up" towards the end to confuse the audience?

Yurui Liu

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Jan 18, 2021, 12:26:48 PMJan 18
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Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午1:12:36 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
That sort of movie ending can lend itself to multiple interpretations each of which
makes sense and is coherent. The proposed reading of Shelley's sentence, however, is
incoherent in the context.

Bebercito

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Jan 18, 2021, 12:42:33 PMJan 18
to
Not always.

>The proposed reading of Shelley's sentence, however, is
> incoherent in the context.

But inherent in that sort of novel.

Yurui Liu

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Jan 18, 2021, 12:49:28 PMJan 18
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Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午1:42:33 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Could you describe such a movie ending?

Bebercito

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Jan 18, 2021, 2:05:29 PMJan 18
to
Anyone who's seen Kubrick's /The Shining/, for instance, will know what
I'm talking about. The final shot on a real photograph of an event that the
plot, all along, suggests had only existed in the mind of one of the characters
(a schizophrenic), has no possible explanations and only seems to be added
to (uselessly, IMO) muddy the waters.

Mack A. Damia

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Jan 18, 2021, 3:51:30 PMJan 18
to
On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 11:05:27 -0800 (PST), Bebercito
<bebe...@aol.com> wrote:

>Le lundi 18 janvier 2021 à 18:49:28 UTC+1, liuyur...@gmail.com a écrit :
>> Bebercito ? 2021?1?19? ?????1:42:33 [UTC+8] ??????
>> > Le lundi 18 janvier 2021 à 18:26:48 UTC+1, liuyur...@gmail.com a écrit :
>> > > Bebercito ? 2021?1?19? ?????1:12:36 [UTC+8] ??????
>> > > > Le lundi 18 janvier 2021 à 17:40:56 UTC+1, liuyur...@gmail.com a écrit :
>> > > > > Bebercito ? 2021?1?19? ?????12:18:44 [UTC+8] ??????
>> > > > > > Le lundi 18 janvier 2021 à 12:39:55 UTC+1, liuyur...@gmail.com a écrit :
>> > > > > > > Bebercito ? 2021?1?18? ?????12:12:07 [UTC+8] ??????
>> > > > > > > > Le samedi 16 janvier 2021 à 17:32:48 UTC+1, liuyur...@gmail.com a écrit :
>> > > > > > > > > Horace LaBadie ? 2021?1?17? ?????12:14:43 [UTC+8] ??????
More like Jack is a reincarnation of the 1921 party guest. Another
theory is that the hotel "absorbed" Jack's soul.


Yurui Liu

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Jan 18, 2021, 7:46:43 PMJan 18
to
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午3:05:29 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
The fact that more than one character in the novel displays
unusual wording or sentence structure indicates that the incoherence
resulting from the proposed understanding of the disputed word could not be
attributed to his insanity, unless other characters are considered insane too.

Bebercito

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Jan 18, 2021, 8:13:51 PMJan 18
to
Yes possibly, but my recollection (from 1980) is neither I nor anybody I knew
was able to fit the end into the "internal logic" of the film.

Bebercito

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Jan 18, 2021, 8:15:33 PMJan 18
to
Are you talking about /The Shining/?

Yurui Liu

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Jan 18, 2021, 8:22:19 PMJan 18
to
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午9:15:33 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
No, I am talking about Frankenstein.

Lewis

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Jan 18, 2021, 8:42:53 PMJan 18
to
In message <85ff87ea-3b3a-4b67...@googlegroups.com> Bebercito <bebe...@aol.com> wrote:
> Anyone who's seen Kubrick's /The Shining/, for instance, will know what
> I'm talking about. The final shot on a real photograph of an event that the
> plot, all along, suggests had only existed in the mind of one of the characters
> (a schizophrenic), has no possible explanations and only seems to be added
> to (uselessly, IMO) muddy the waters.

It is a way of saying that the hotel itself had agency in the events.


--
Stupid men are often capable of things the clever would not dare to
contemplate... --Feet of Clay

Mack A. Damia

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Jan 18, 2021, 9:15:10 PMJan 18
to
On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 17:13:49 -0800 (PST), Bebercito
Isn't the fact that the hotel is haunted enough to fit anything
supernatural to happen? That to me is the "internal logic".


Peter Moylan

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Jan 18, 2021, 11:54:07 PMJan 18
to
That takes me back to the days when AUE was infested with the "please do
my homework" crowd.

That, in turn, has brought to mind what was possibly my best
contribution to this newsgroup. Anyone not interested in going back in
time can stop reading here.

========== reproduction of old posting ============

Subject: (alt.usage.english) Re: The Iliad - Help!
From: pe...@fourier.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

Albert Chang (ac...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>I am currently studying Homer's The Iliad, and I find it somewhat hard
>to understand. Could someone please give me some ideas on the
>following topic:=20

>The belief in Arete is the driving force of Achilles. How does Homer
>present this belief in the character of Achilles? What is Homer's
>attitude toward arete in Book XXIV and how is it shown?

>Please email the response to ac...@ix.netcom.com. Thank you.

The key to understanding this question is, of course, an
appreciation of the full meaning of "arete". This is not
completely obvious, but if you check some dictionaries
you'll find that "arete" is a French word meaning "fish bone".
(The ancient Greeks were great travellers, so it's not
surprising to discover that Homer was fluent in French.)

In one of the early books, the three witches - who represent
Poverty, Chastity, and Obedience - place a curse on
Achilles. Some commentators have mistakenly surmised
that this was a podiatric curse, but a deeper reading shows
that the curse is the ultimate cause of the fish bone
stuck in Achilles' throat. In the longer term this "arete"
has a major influence on all of Achilles' actions.

An apparently unrelated incident is, at least for me, the
key to understanding the underlying tensions in this story.
What is the significance of the little dog who wanders in
while Poirot is cleaning the Augean stables? The dog is
innocent of any wrong-doing, and certainly does not deserve
the rebuke "Out, out, damned Spot". What this incident
portrays is the strength of the frustration of someone
forced to work at the south end of a horse, and this is
directly parallel to the frustration felt by someone forced
to wander the world with a fish bone stuck in his
throat. Both of these are intended to symbolise the
frustration felt by people who are asked to do someone
else's work for them.

If you use any of this material, by the way, it would
be appropriate to include a citation of the source.


--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan

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Jan 18, 2021, 11:59:58 PMJan 18
to
On 19/01/21 02:22, Janet wrote:

> You might like to consider a UK organisation called
> Education Otherwise, for families who educate their children otherwise
> than in school.
>
> https://www.educationotherwise.org/
>
> "About Education Otherwise
>
> From a modest start made by a small group of parents in 1977, Education
> Otherwise (EO) has grown to become a well respected and vibrant
> registered charity, supporting and advising home educating families in
> England and Wales.
>
> Our name comes from the Education Act, which states that parents are
> responsible for their children's education, ?either by regular
> attendance at school or otherwise? and we work to raise public awareness
> of the fact that education is compulsory, but school is not."

Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.

Lewis

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Jan 19, 2021, 4:13:49 AMJan 19
to
Home Schooling in the US is nearly always a choice made out of fundie
christer terror of children being taught science and other Satanic
subjects.

There are exceptions, of course, but when my niece was young and they
lived in a remote area they home schooled and it was difficult to find,
specifically, science curricula that did not involve people riding
dinosaurs.

--
Of pleasures, those that occur most rarely give the most delight

Peter Moylan

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Jan 19, 2021, 4:34:02 AMJan 19
to
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying direct
orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the ark.

RH Draney

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Jan 19, 2021, 5:19:09 AMJan 19
to
On 1/19/2021 2:33 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying direct
> orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the ark.

A pair, or a set of seven?...would brontos be clean or unclean beasts?...r

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Jan 19, 2021, 5:24:46 AMJan 19
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On 2021-01-19 09:13:43 +0000, Lewis said:

> In message <ru5p0a$rqm$2...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On 19/01/21 02:22, Janet wrote:
>
>>> You might like to consider a UK organisation called
>>> Education Otherwise, for families who educate their children otherwise
>>> than in school.
>>>
>>> https://www.educationotherwise.org/
>>>
>>> "About Education Otherwise
>>>
>>> From a modest start made by a small group of parents in 1977, Education
>>> Otherwise (EO) has grown to become a well respected and vibrant
>>> registered charity, supporting and advising home educating families in
>>> England and Wales.
>>>
>>> Our name comes from the Education Act, which states that parents are
>>> responsible for their children's education, ?either by regular
>>> attendance at school or otherwise? and we work to raise public awareness
>>> of the fact that education is compulsory, but school is not."
>
>> Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
>> schooling.
>
> Home Schooling in the US is nearly always a choice made out of fundie
> christer terror of children being taught science and other Satanic
> subjects.

When I were a lad home schooling was allowed in the UK, but was subject
to the same testing by inspectors from the Ministry of Education as
schools.
>
> There are exceptions, of course, but when my niece was young and they
> lived in a remote area they home schooled and it was difficult to find,
> specifically, science curricula that did not involve people riding
> dinosaurs.


--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

Kerr-Mudd,John

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Jan 19, 2021, 5:41:00 AMJan 19
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I've seen through you!, this is all nonsense; you'd never find Poirot
cleaning out stables.

Anyway ar[e^]tes are found in high glaciated places:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ar%C3%AAte

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Kerr-Mudd,John

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Jan 19, 2021, 5:43:13 AMJan 19
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On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 01:15:31 GMT, Bebercito <bebe...@aol.com> wrote:

> Le mardi 19 janvier 2021 à 01:46:43 UTC+1, liuyur...@gmail.com a
> écrit :
>> Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期
> 二上午3:05:29 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
>> > Le lundi 18 janvier 2021 à 18:49:28 UTC+1, liuyur...@gmail.com a
> écrit :
>> > > Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星æ
> ��二上午1:42:33 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
>> > > > Le lundi 18 janvier 2021 à 18:26:48 UTC+1, liuyur...@gmail.com
> a écrit :
>> > > > > Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星
> 期二上午1:12:36 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
>> > > > > > Le lundi 18 janvier 2021 à 17:40:56 UTC+1, liuyur...@gmail
> .com a écrit :
>> > > > > > > Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 �˜
> �期二上午12:18:44 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
>> > > > > > > > Le lundi 18 janvier 2021 à 12:39:55 UTC+1, liuyur...@g
> mail.com a écrit :
>> > > > > > > > > Bebercito 在 2021年1月18日
> 星期一下午12:12:07 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
>> > > > > > > > > > Le samedi 16 janvier 2021 à 17:32:48 UTC+1, liuyur
> ...@gmail.com a écrit :
>> > > > > > > > > > > Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17æ
> �¥ 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > In article
>> > > > > > > > > > > > <c5ee7e2f-5c47-4411...@googlegroups.com>
> ,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > Yurui Liu <liuyur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
[]

> Are you talking about /The Shining/?
>

How about trimming a bit?
[]

Peter Moylan

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Jan 19, 2021, 6:47:19 AMJan 19
to
Fred Flintstone says clean. I'm not aware of anyone else's having
expressed an opinion.

The boss gave clear instructions on the size of the ark. If we can work
out the space needed for all the other animals, then in principle we
should be able to work out how many brontos would fit in the remaining
space.

Peter Moylan

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Jan 19, 2021, 7:12:39 AMJan 19
to
On 19/01/21 21:40, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:

> I've seen through you!, this is all nonsense; you'd never find Poirot
> cleaning out stables.

You haven't heard of the twelve labours of Hercule?

A very vague memory is trying to tell me that Agatha Christie even wrote
a book with that title.

Kerr-Mudd,John

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Jan 19, 2021, 7:18:39 AMJan 19
to
On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 12:12:34 GMT, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 19/01/21 21:40, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
>
>> I've seen through you!, this is all nonsense; you'd never find Poirot
>> cleaning out stables.
>
> You haven't heard of the twelve labours of Hercule?
>
> A very vague memory is trying to tell me that Agatha Christie even
wrote
> a book with that title.
>
Indeed. I've also read a lot of Harley Quin (1) stories; a more mystical
version of Poirot.

(1)It was a collection, so probably all of them.

J. J. Lodder

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Jan 19, 2021, 7:18:58 AMJan 19
to
Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 19/01/21 20:13, Lewis wrote:
> > In message <ru5p0a$rqm$2...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan:
>
> >> Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
> >> schooling.
> >
> > Home Schooling in the US is nearly always a choice made out of fundie
> > christer terror of children being taught science and other Satanic
> > subjects.
> >
> > There are exceptions, of course, but when my niece was young and they
> > lived in a remote area they home schooled and it was difficult to find,
> > specifically, science curricula that did not involve people riding
> > dinosaurs.
>
> It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying direct
> orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the ark.

But Noah did, -all- means all.
Unfortunately the Brontos, and the T-rexes, and the Mammoths,
and the cave bears, and so on, all died out
in the 200-year ice age that followed shortly after the flood.

And no, I'm not the one who invented this,

Jan

J. J. Lodder

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Jan 19, 2021, 7:33:29 AMJan 19
to
Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 19/01/21 21:40, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
>
> > I've seen through you!, this is all nonsense; you'd never find Poirot
> > cleaning out stables.
>
> You haven't heard of the twelve labours of Hercule?
>
> A very vague memory is trying to tell me that Agatha Christie even wrote
> a book with that title.

Yes, 'The Labours of Hercules'.
It is a collection, with twelve short stories,
in which Hercule does them all,

Jan

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Jan 19, 2021, 7:56:23 AMJan 19
to
I've never come across a real person called Hercule, but I suppose they exist.

J. J. Lodder

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Jan 19, 2021, 8:19:58 AMJan 19
to
(Looks) There is a Hercule Dupont on Facebook,
so there must be more of them,

Jan

charles

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Jan 19, 2021, 9:01:36 AMJan 19
to
In article <ru6gs4$hv5$1...@dont-email.me>,
leave room for the Unicorns

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Jan 19, 2021, 9:16:51 AMJan 19
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On 2021-01-19 13:54:55 +0000, charles said:

> In article <ru6gs4$hv5$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On 19/01/21 21:19, RH Draney wrote:
>>> On 1/19/2021 2:33 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying
>>>> direct orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the
>>>> ark.
>>>
>>> A pair, or a set of seven?...would brontos be clean or unclean
>>> beasts?...r
>
>> Fred Flintstone says clean. I'm not aware of anyone else's having
>> expressed an opinion.
>
>> The boss gave clear instructions on the size of the ark. If we can work
>> out the space needed for all the other animals, then in principle we
>> should be able to work out how many brontos would fit in the remaining
>> space.
>
> leave room for the Unicorns

On the pale yellow sands
Where the Unicorn stands
And the Eggs are preparing for Tea
Sing Forty
Sing Thirty
Sing Three.

On the pale yellow sands
There’s a pair of Clasped Hands
And an Eyeball entangled with string
(Sing Forty
Sing Fifty
Sing Three.)
And a Bicycle Seat
And a Plate of Raw Meat
And a Thing that is hardly a Thing.

On the pale yellow sands
There stands
A Commode
That has nothing to do with the case.
Sing Eighty
Sing Ninety
Sing Three.

On the pale yellow sands
There’s a Dorian Mode
And a Temple all covered with Lace
And a Gothic Erection of Urgent Demands
On the Patience of You and of Me.

Lord Berners's inspired by a painting of Salvador Dalí.

Ken Blake

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Jan 19, 2021, 10:01:31 AMJan 19